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AZ Progressive

(3,411 posts)
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:39 PM Oct 2014

One of America's biggest root problems: Scots-Irish culture

The vast majority of white southerners as well as many throughout the west are descendants of the Scots-Irish people. I think it's important to understand the cultural roots of people as many things, including problems in society are rooted in culture. Read the article to know more about the Scots-Irish:

The Article: The Scots-Irish Vote

"Richard Nisbett and Dov Cohen, psychology professors at the University of Michigan and University of Illinois, conducted an in-depth study in the 1990s examining what they dubbed the "Culture of Honor" prevalent in the South."

"Nisbett argues that many of the cultural traits of the modern South can be traced back to the heritage of the population's descendants. "The Scots-Irish were a herding people, while people from the north [of the U.S.] were English, German and Dutch farmers. Herding people are tough guys all over the world, and they are that because they have to establish that you can't trifle with them, and if you don't do that then you feel like you're at risk for losing your entire wealth, which is your herd. This creates a culture of honor, and the Scots-Irish are very much a culture of honor, and they carried that with them from the Deep South to the Mountain South, and then out through the western plains.""


"According to Nisbett, the Scots-Irish were a warlike people distrustful of a powerful central government, a result of the herder mentality as well as centuries of fighting, first against the English and Irish, then against Native Americans, then against the Yankees. As he points out, "The Scots-Irish are very much overrepresented in the military ... and you find them there because they're a fighting people.""

"An analysis of Scots-Irish may help to explain why rural white voters in many areas of the South and West often share similar viewpoints, and why they differ from rural whites in areas like New England and the upper Midwest in their cultural beliefs and voting patterns."



The article also goes on to say that they were once solidly New Deal Democrats, broke with the Democratic Party increasingly since the 1960s as the Democratic Party became increasingly socially liberal and anti-war.

Of course, there's the whole history of racism in the South, and one can argue that that alone is the reason why they broke off from the Democrats. FDR was able to keep them under the influence of the Democratic Party partly because of FDR's own success in promoting economic progressivism but also because the party did not really tackle minority rights (in part the reason that many Southerners were Democrats.)

Since the time that they went into the Republican camp, because of their outsized influence, it has been difficult to get economically progressive legislation through. The Republicans encouraged them to embrace their cultural roots of distrust of big government and being pro-war. Their cultural roots in Calvinism also suggests why they don't support the government helping the poor and disadvantaged (even if they get help from the government themselves.)

People with these cultural roots are the reason why the Republican party continues to exist, and are the people that have basically allowed the big corporations and the 1% to take over this country (foolishly unknowingly.) Their viewpoints and beliefs, rooted in their culture, continue to be thorns in the way of America's ability to progress.

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One of America's biggest root problems: Scots-Irish culture (Original Post) AZ Progressive Oct 2014 OP
Very deep shenmue Oct 2014 #1
I think it's a shitload more complicated than that. cali Oct 2014 #2
Agree with you Cali. Ethnic Blame Game... KoKo Oct 2014 #13
Truly! catrose Oct 2014 #40
Then again, sometimes there is a smidgeon of truth in generalizations. Having traveled extensively adirondacker Oct 2014 #42
The Dutch in New York were known to be racists against the American Indians so muntrv Oct 2014 #58
Excuse me? I'm one-eighth Scots Irish. KamaAina Oct 2014 #3
I'm about half Scots-Irish... nt IphengeniaBlumgarten Oct 2014 #14
Welcome to DU! KamaAina Oct 2014 #20
I'm a quarter although half Latina and take my identity from that. eom Cleita Oct 2014 #39
I'm about an eighth or more and I'm black. bravenak Oct 2014 #51
Excellent! hunter Oct 2014 #82
What a load of racist bullocks. Irish Americans are almost predominately Democrats. FSogol Oct 2014 #4
Thanks, I just read that and scratched my head. The Brits are painted as the 'liberals' here, lol? sabrina 1 Oct 2014 #15
The dirt poor Irish came to America to own Southern Slavery Plantations before receiving the FSogol Oct 2014 #29
You mean 'some' of the Irish. There are criminal elements in every culture, they do not represent sabrina 1 Oct 2014 #33
My response was a pure anachronistic joke*. Slavery plantations preceded the FSogol Oct 2014 #37
Scots Irish are the Protestants of Northern Ireland. KamaAina Oct 2014 #21
Thank you, which generally means they were not native Irish people, they were 'planted' on land sabrina 1 Oct 2014 #36
You're confusing the Irish Irish and the Scots-Irish. Thirties Child Oct 2014 #22
Not always. KamaAina Oct 2014 #48
Not true. Fawke Em Oct 2014 #76
The Scots-Irish Americans are not typical Irish Americans. pnwmom Oct 2014 #23
+100 Duppers Oct 2014 #86
Scots-Irish are different from plain old Irish Warpy Oct 2014 #31
As several here have H2O Man Oct 2014 #38
Anecdotally, my family is Scots-Irish. My grandparents came here in the 1890s. FSogol Oct 2014 #45
Right. H2O Man Oct 2014 #56
"Scots-Irish" != "Irish-American". Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #43
One of the primary reasons H2O Man Oct 2014 #59
That's the way it was in my family... SiobhanClancy Oct 2014 #85
I agree with that, but I live in Boston and I also see where a lot of Irish Americans are smirkymonkey Oct 2014 #84
As pointed out, this is about Scots-Irish. However, what you said was only once true... Drunken Irishman Oct 2014 #89
Quite an old chestnut, as it happens. malthaussen Oct 2014 #5
Have you read "Born to Fight" by Jim Webb? It's a fantastic window into the history and culture ... Hekate Oct 2014 #6
This thread should go well.....nt msanthrope Oct 2014 #7
This is extraordinarily racist. DemocraticWing Oct 2014 #8
I was thinking they used to justify slave ownership for similar ethnic reasons too. bettyellen Oct 2014 #10
The Scots Irish flooded the South but... Thirties Child Oct 2014 #28
+1. I was about to mention Albion's Seed. winter is coming Oct 2014 #44
Thank you for an injection of historical accuracy theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #64
Oh please. Nationally, the divide is much more about rural vs urban. Educated vs less so. bettyellen Oct 2014 #9
New England, and other parts of NE, the Irish HockeyMom Oct 2014 #11
There wasn't that much intermarriage between the two groups ... Thirties Child Oct 2014 #30
Read damn near anything the late, great Joe Bageant ever wrote. hifiguy Oct 2014 #12
Deer Hunting With Jesus... haikugal Oct 2014 #34
Another + for Joe Bageant's work Tom Ripley Oct 2014 #72
+1000s. His essay "Drink, Pray, Fight, Fuck" says it all. DinahMoeHum Oct 2014 #81
Oy Jaysus WilliamPitt Oct 2014 #16
At least it was a well written pile of shit. Throd Oct 2014 #18
But a pile of shit nonetheless. cordelia Oct 2014 #91
I dunno if this is quite 100% accurate, TBH. AverageJoe90 Oct 2014 #17
Scottish Motto: Nemo me impune lacessit ~ No one cuts/attacks me with impunity aikoaiko Oct 2014 #19
"People with these cultural roots are the reason why the Republican party continues to exist" KamaAina Oct 2014 #24
LOL- true. There are sociopathic grifters of all ethnicities out there. bettyellen Oct 2014 #52
Shite. Sheldon Cooper Oct 2014 #25
Bazinga! KamaAina Oct 2014 #46
Thems fightin words seveneyes Oct 2014 #26
My dad's side of the family was Scots-Irish, landed in the northeast, babylonsister Oct 2014 #27
My grandmother was a Scotch-Irish person, a Carr. I don't know when they Cleita Oct 2014 #32
"Their cultural roots in Calvinism also suggests why they don't support the government helping the muntrv Oct 2014 #35
Strange OP. H2O Man Oct 2014 #41
Bullcrap! KT2000 Oct 2014 #47
k/r Dawson Leery Oct 2014 #49
"and the Scots-Irish are very much a culture of honor, muntrv Oct 2014 #50
Reagan was English-Scottish on his mom' side, Irish (as in, Irish Catholic) on his dad's YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #77
Reagan was the sort who would sell his soul for a blow job. hunter Oct 2014 #83
This is fucking racist bullshit. The Irish make up the most liberal Democrats that I know. TeamPooka Oct 2014 #53
Sounds somewhat simplistic to me. elleng Oct 2014 #54
The book this article is based on is an attempt to explain southern white rural violence. fifthoffive Oct 2014 #55
If they're going to blame 2 centuries back for a culture of violence, look at the Cavaliers. politicat Oct 2014 #88
The correct term is Scotch-Irish. rogerashton Oct 2014 #57
Scotch is a kind of whiskey. Manifestor_of_Light Oct 2014 #68
What you say is correct. But rogerashton Oct 2014 #69
What a load of shite. edbermac Oct 2014 #60
This article is so full of historical flaws I don't even know where to begin theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #61
+1 KoKo Oct 2014 #62
Well get the red out Oct 2014 #63
This article is five years old. Demit Oct 2014 #65
The Protestant vs. Catholic warfare has always been intense in my family. hunter Oct 2014 #66
This French and Native American son of the south has no quarrel with this study Tom Ripley Oct 2014 #67
Well fuuuuuuck me! OriginalGeek Oct 2014 #70
What do they mean by "herders"? ladyVet Oct 2014 #71
Reiver cultures everywhere tend to like violence AngryAmish Oct 2014 #75
I think the reality is far more complicated than this... YoungDemCA Oct 2014 #73
I'm Irish, Scots-Irish and Southern. Fawke Em Oct 2014 #74
Well I am Scots-Irish. People are not their upaloopa Oct 2014 #78
And this kind of post is why I wish for an UNREC button... DeadLetterOffice Oct 2014 #79
All generalizations are bullshit tularetom Oct 2014 #80
But that's terrible cultural history. It doesn't work. politicat Oct 2014 #87
Excellent post theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #90
K&R right here... This is a great read, it'll take a while to digest it. Thanks for posting this. freshwest Oct 2014 #93
If someone started a thread on the "African culture" from which many American blacks are descended, Nye Bevan Oct 2014 #92
 

cali

(114,904 posts)
2. I think it's a shitload more complicated than that.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:42 PM
Oct 2014

"Nisbett argues that many of the cultural traits of the modern South can be traced back to the heritage of the population's descendants. "The Scots-Irish were a herding people, while people from the north were English, German and Dutch farmers. Herding people are tough guys all over the world, and they are that because they have to establish that you can't trifle with them, and if you don't do that then you feel like you're at risk for losing your entire wealth, which is your herd. This creates a culture of honor, and the Scots-Irish are very much a culture of honor, and they carried that with them from the Deep South to the Mountain South, and then out through the western plains.""

And I really hate this kind of ethnic blame game.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
13. Agree with you Cali. Ethnic Blame Game...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:03 PM
Oct 2014

We've had enough of that going on. Sounds like blaming a genetic trait calling them (herders)...yet intermarriage would put the lie to that. The Scots-Irish married the English, Germans and the rest and so it would be like blaming the "Tea Party" and Religious Fundamentalists on a gene pool...

Just this quote alone is enough to...

"Herding people are tough guys all over the world, and they are that because they have to establish that you can't trifle with them, and if you don't do that then you feel like you're at risk for losing your entire wealth, which is your herd."

catrose

(5,073 posts)
40. Truly!
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:35 PM
Oct 2014

And this culture has continued 300 years mostly without the benefits of herds? And it's certainly not the whole story, says this mostly Scots Irish progressive.

adirondacker

(2,921 posts)
42. Then again, sometimes there is a smidgeon of truth in generalizations. Having traveled extensively
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:35 PM
Oct 2014

throughout Europe and the Caribbean, in every country I stayed in, fist fights were largely brought out by either Brits, The U.S., or Australians. The rest of the countries do not resort to punching each other in the face. Heated arguments for sure in places like Spain, Netherlands, France etc, but they remain verbal. Go to places like Ibiza where you have visitors and party-goers from around the world, and it's quite typically it's the Brits and Americans that will start a brawl. The rest, not so much.

muntrv

(14,505 posts)
58. The Dutch in New York were known to be racists against the American Indians so
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:58 PM
Oct 2014

racism is not exclusive to the Scots-Irish.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
3. Excuse me? I'm one-eighth Scots Irish.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:45 PM
Oct 2014

I imagine there are many, many other DUers who have more Scots Irish heritage than that.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
20. Welcome to DU!
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:08 PM
Oct 2014


Sorry it had to happen this way. With around 200,000 of us, people are gonna say some pretty dumb things now and again.
 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
51. I'm about an eighth or more and I'm black.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:50 PM
Oct 2014

They seem to like black people well enough. Otherwise how did I get here?

hunter

(38,328 posts)
82. Excellent!
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 06:58 PM
Oct 2014

My surname is Scots-Irish. My own Scots-Irish ancestors considered themselves scorned radicals exiled from Europe for their choices of Catholic and Jewish spouses.

It's still very strange.

My white California grandfather coexisted peacefully with all sorts of people. Black or Asian or Native American coworkers, no problem. He had Irish Catholic ancestors himself, but was raised Scots-Irish Protestant. Nevertheless, he was upset when my wife and I announced our engagement. Men in his family did not marry (in his words) "Mexican Girls." He did not attend our big Catholic wedding, but eventually he got past that.

My family surname no longer belongs to the burns-easily-in-the-sunlight redneck freckled melanoma prone Scots-Irish Protestants. This world is a much better place for that.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
4. What a load of racist bullocks. Irish Americans are almost predominately Democrats.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:46 PM
Oct 2014

They're pro-worker and pro-Union.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
15. Thanks, I just read that and scratched my head. The Brits are painted as the 'liberals' here, lol?
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:06 PM
Oct 2014

Any immigrant from any country under the thumb of the Brutal British Empire was most likely driven from their land of origin after having their land confiscated for the Empire.

The whole thing appears to be drivel. The Loyalists in both the North and the South were called that due to their loyalty to the Crown, they viewed themselves as British. Unless the 'scots/irish referred to in this OP were what would have been viewed as betrayers in their in their countries of origin, I cannot imagine that those drive OUT of their nations by the Crown, being loyal to the crown.

Sounds like someone doesn't know a whole about the histories of these nations back when Britain still had an Empire.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
29. The dirt poor Irish came to America to own Southern Slavery Plantations before receiving the
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:20 PM
Oct 2014

ultimate slander of being called Reagan supporters.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
33. You mean 'some' of the Irish. There are criminal elements in every culture, they do not represent
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:28 PM
Oct 2014

the entire culture. I'm sure there were people of all ethnic backgrounds who took advantage of the relative freedom of the 'new world' back then. And there were also people who were principled from all ethnic backgrounds.

Broad brushes tend to leave out a whole of important information.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
37. My response was a pure anachronistic joke*. Slavery plantations preceded the
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:32 PM
Oct 2014

large Irish migrations to the US.


* kind of like the article in the OP.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
21. Scots Irish are the Protestants of Northern Ireland.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:09 PM
Oct 2014

They are ethnic Scots who were pushed over to Ulster by the English. Many, many of them emigrated to America when they got the chance.

It is, however, still a load of racist bollocks.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
36. Thank you, which generally means they were not native Irish people, they were 'planted' on land
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:31 PM
Oct 2014

in Ireland to help the Brits control what they stole from the native Irish. Some were given Irish land as a reward for their loyalty to Britain. And yes, the article is bs, apparently not too concerned about historical details.

Thirties Child

(543 posts)
22. You're confusing the Irish Irish and the Scots-Irish.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:10 PM
Oct 2014

When Southerners say they're Irish, they actually mean Scots-Irish. Southern culture is pretty much Scots-Irish culture. Jim Webb wrote Born Fighting - How the Scots Irish Shaped America, and he's pretty much right on, at least from my Southern perspective. I'm close to half Scots-Irish, and guess I can thank my Mennonite genes for my liberalism.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
48. Not always.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:47 PM
Oct 2014

New Orleans and Savannah have huge "Irish Irish" communities, with the St. Paddy's Day blasts to prove it. In NOLA, cabbages and potatoes were once thrown from floats like Mardi Gras beads; alas, the litigious society put a stop to that years ago.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
76. Not true.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 05:55 PM
Oct 2014

I'm both Irish and Scots-Irish and I'm Southern. Trust me, I know the difference.

Irish on my Mom's side. Scots-Irish on my Dad's.

pnwmom

(108,995 posts)
23. The Scots-Irish Americans are not typical Irish Americans.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:10 PM
Oct 2014

They come for a region in Northern Ireland and Scotland where the inhabitants often went back and forth between Scotland and Ireland, and were mostly Protestant. In the US, many did settle in the South.

Most Irish people were Catholic, with a different set of beliefs and viewpoints than the Scots-Irish Protestants. Even today Catholics are more likely to support unions and to be pro-worker.

Warpy

(111,351 posts)
31. Scots-Irish are different from plain old Irish
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:22 PM
Oct 2014

even the potato famine Irish who wanted to forget everything they'd seen in the home country before they had enough money to flee.

They used to be pro union, not so much now that traitors like Reagan, O'Reilly, Buchanan and other right wing schmucks have been working on them for decades. For some reason, the Protestant Scots Irish have been bigger suckers for this stuff, probably because the Irish have long learned to be skeptical of everything and everybody, especially of authoritarians.

There is no racism of any type noting that cultures can profoundly differ from each other. I don't buy the herder/warrior crap about the Scots Irish, most of whom were in the industrialized north. They do tend to be more authoritarian, probably because they periodically needed authority in the form of England to save their butts when the Irish got too uppity.

As with any statistical norm, there are always a lot of outliers, especially when you're talking about people in general, Celts in particular.

For an entertaining look at some of the differences, "An Everlasting Piece" is a place to start, Netflix probably has it and it's hilarious as well as instructive.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0218182/



H2O Man

(73,621 posts)
38. As several here have
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:32 PM
Oct 2014

correctly noted, the article is about the Scots-Irish, rather than the Irish of whom you speak. What has been left out, I think, is that the English used the Scots-Irish to colonize a section of the Old Sod. These people, although frequently related to the rightful inhabitants, were protestant, and shared the English's contempt for the catholic population.

FSogol

(45,527 posts)
45. Anecdotally, my family is Scots-Irish. My grandparents came here in the 1890s.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:38 PM
Oct 2014

We have always been Democrats.

Whitewashing history in an attempt to blame one group for a countrys or regions problems is an gross oversimplification and almost always wrong.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
43. "Scots-Irish" != "Irish-American".
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:36 PM
Oct 2014

The Scots-Irish, or Ulster Scots, are the descendants of people from the Scottish borders region in the Scottish Lowlands and the north of England, many of whom went to Ireland in James I's "Plantation of Ulster" and who came to the American colonies in large numbers from around 1750 or so. They were mostly Presbyterian, and their descendants are likely to be Baptist, or Pentecostal. Most of these people settled in the Southern colonies, mostly in the so-called "back country". The yahoo with the Confederate flag sticker on his pickup that says "Heritage, Not Hate"? He's probably Scots-Irish (and a distant cousin to the yahoos in Northern Ireland who go marching through Catholic neighbourhoods with effigies of King Billy on the anniversary of the Battle of the Boyne).

"Irish-Americans" are mostly the descendants of Irish Catholics who left Ireland during the famine or not long after. Very few of them settled the South. There were sizeable numbers in some places in the South; New Orleans, because it was a port city, and Louisville because Kentucky has historically had a large Catholic population, but mostly the Irish who came to America settled in the North.

(And it's spelt "bollocks".)

H2O Man

(73,621 posts)
59. One of the primary reasons
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 03:02 PM
Oct 2014

that most of the Irish settled in the north was because of the timing of their landing in the northern ports. The young men would become "enlisted" into the military, and were the soldiers that won the Civil War for the North.

SiobhanClancy

(2,955 posts)
85. That's the way it was in my family...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 07:33 PM
Oct 2014

All eight of my great-grandparents were born in Ireland. One of my great-grandfathers came over in 1863,and as soon as he got off his ship,he was greeted with citizenship papers at one table,and draft papers at the next, He was 16,and his family probably sent him over for being in a spot of trouble. It was too late for him to be a famine immigrant,and he traveled in second class rather than steerage so it probably wasn't due to dire poverty. Although he prospered here and became a mining engineer and later a sheriff,he always had a lot of anger and resentment about his "welcome" here. Irish Catholic from Skibbereen.

 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
84. I agree with that, but I live in Boston and I also see where a lot of Irish Americans are
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 07:16 PM
Oct 2014

very racist and conservative. I am just curious as to why there seems to be such extremes.

 

Drunken Irishman

(34,857 posts)
89. As pointed out, this is about Scots-Irish. However, what you said was only once true...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:36 PM
Oct 2014

It isn't anymore. Irish-Americans were at one point a huge coalition for the Democrats, built out of the early days with the city bosses and solidified during the FDR administration. However, they're far less Democratic today than 50 years ago - with a huge chunk supporting Republican candidates due to race and class issues.

You just have to look at the Catholic vote to see this: Obama won the Catholic vote, but solely because of Hispanics. He actually lost the white Catholic vote 59-40 to Romney. Kerry, a White Catholic, lost it to Bush in 2004 56-43.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/11/07/how-the-faithful-voted-2012-preliminary-exit-poll-analysis/

It reasons that Irish-Americans, who are white, are not voting overwhelmingly Democratic or it would show in the Catholic numbers (most Catholics are ethnic - either Hispanic, black, Italian, Polish, German or Irish) - though, I believe Irish-Americans vote more favorably Democratic than some other ethnic groups (Italians, Scots-Irish).

Finally, here is a poll from 2012:

A poll asking how Irish Americans plan to vote in Tuesday’s US Presidential election found Obama has a marginal lead of 51 per cent to Romney’s 48 per cent. One per cent of voters said they remain undecided.


http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-american-vote-presidential-election-660332-Nov2012/

Pretty nearly 50/50.

malthaussen

(17,216 posts)
5. Quite an old chestnut, as it happens.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:47 PM
Oct 2014

Like most broad-brush analyses, it contains enough truth to content those who are looking for quickie answers.

-- Mal

Hekate

(90,824 posts)
6. Have you read "Born to Fight" by Jim Webb? It's a fantastic window into the history and culture ...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:54 PM
Oct 2014

... of the Scots-Irish and who we are as a nation. It's very nuanced.

DemocraticWing

(1,290 posts)
8. This is extraordinarily racist.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 01:57 PM
Oct 2014

Take out Scots-Irish and start calling another ethnic group "warlike" and blame them for all the problems of our country, and this would appear very different. Might as well just called the Irish drunks and told them to "quit takin' our jobs!"

Thirties Child

(543 posts)
28. The Scots Irish flooded the South but...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:19 PM
Oct 2014

For the most part they were small farmers, not big plantation owners. I read Albion's Seed years ago, and what I brought away from it is that we can thank the Cavaliers, not the Scots-Irish, for slavery. Many of the big plantation owners were second sons - or descendants of second sons - who had grown up with an underclass - serfs - working for them and doing their bidding.

The descriptions pretty much fit both the South and the Scots Irish.

winter is coming

(11,785 posts)
44. +1. I was about to mention Albion's Seed.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:36 PM
Oct 2014

Interesting book, and IIRC, the author would have said "borderers" rather than Scots-Irish.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
11. New England, and other parts of NE, the Irish
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:00 PM
Oct 2014

there tend not to be Scots-Irish, but Republic of Ireland and Catholic, not Northern Ireland and Protestant. That is the difference. A lot of intermarriage between the two groups probably watered down religous and cultural differences, especially in the big cities. My English Protestant Grandfather married my Irish Catholic Grandmother. Religion and Culture became moot after just one generation. Maybe in the South there wasn't much intermarriage between the groups?





Thirties Child

(543 posts)
30. There wasn't that much intermarriage between the two groups ...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:21 PM
Oct 2014

because there weren't that many Irish Catholics in the South.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
12. Read damn near anything the late, great Joe Bageant ever wrote.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:01 PM
Oct 2014

No one dissected the culture any better and he knew - it was his cultural heritage.

haikugal

(6,476 posts)
34. Deer Hunting With Jesus...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:29 PM
Oct 2014

Great book and all the insight of one who came from this group....I count myself among them as I come from Scotch Irish stock. My father was a Calvinist and almost all my southern family are part of wacky religious fundy groups. Bageant does it with love and understanding.

Good recommendation hifiguy...you beat me to it!

(edited to add)
I don't think the Scotch Irish are 'our biggest problem' (I am one and I'm here), but understanding them is helpful.

 

WilliamPitt

(58,179 posts)
16. Oy Jaysus
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:06 PM
Oct 2014

Scot-Irish-South bashing, in one fell swoop.

"People with these cultural roots are the reason why the Republican party continues to exist."

I'm Irish, and half my family is from Alabama.

You Fail in spectacular fashion.

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
17. I dunno if this is quite 100% accurate, TBH.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:07 PM
Oct 2014

Last edited Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Although but one thing that some of our fellow Americans don't seem to quite understand, is that the dominant cultural strain in the South, at least when it comes to conservatives, isn't Scots-Irish, but rather, an Anglo-Saxon one, and always was.....the Scots-Irish were always second fiddle, by and large, apart from a lucky few.

aikoaiko

(34,183 posts)
19. Scottish Motto: Nemo me impune lacessit ~ No one cuts/attacks me with impunity
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:08 PM
Oct 2014

I married into a pre-revolutionary war family of Southerners with Scottish roots.

Nemo me impune lacessit for real.
 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
24. "People with these cultural roots are the reason why the Republican party continues to exist"
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:14 PM
Oct 2014

This may come as news to Ted Cruz, Allen West, Dinesh D'Souza, Rudy Giuliani, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Michele Bachmann, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly (both are Irish, not Scots Irish) and so on.

babylonsister

(171,092 posts)
27. My dad's side of the family was Scots-Irish, landed in the northeast,
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:17 PM
Oct 2014

and are Dems. I think that brush is way too broad.

Cleita

(75,480 posts)
32. My grandmother was a Scotch-Irish person, a Carr. I don't know when they
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:25 PM
Oct 2014

corrected to Scots-Irish. Basically they are what yanks call hillbillies because they originally come from around Appalachia. I grew up around the music from that branch of the family when I was around them. My grandmother was a Democrat who kept chickens in her back yard and provided the neighbors with eggs and meat from the young roosters during WWII when those things were rationed. Her sister, my aunt, was a religious nut who tried to convert my mother and me to save us from the evil Catholics, which we were.

All in all, they were good and kind people in spite of their bigotry at times. Oh, my mom was Latina and so was I. I think painting them with a broad brush isn't right. I think the move towards being Republican is more brain washing by propaganda in the last fifty years than being ingrained in the culture.

muntrv

(14,505 posts)
35. "Their cultural roots in Calvinism also suggests why they don't support the government helping the
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:30 PM
Oct 2014

poor and disadvantaged." Scots-Irish are known to be Presbyterian. PC USA supports single payer healthcare

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/june/_presbyterian_church.php

KT2000

(20,588 posts)
47. Bullcrap!
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:46 PM
Oct 2014

The Irish actually lived communally until the British tore apart their culture.

German on mother's side - hateful racists, conservative republicans (except mother), southern
Irish-Scot on father's side - mostly democrats, generous to those less fortunate

The Scots-Irish were warlike because so many countries tried to take over their land and subjugate the people.

muntrv

(14,505 posts)
50. "and the Scots-Irish are very much a culture of honor,
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:48 PM
Oct 2014

and they carried that with them from the Deep South to the Mountain South, and then out through the western plains.""

Apparently Ronald Reagan, a Scot-Irish person, didn't get the memo.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
77. Reagan was English-Scottish on his mom' side, Irish (as in, Irish Catholic) on his dad's
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 05:56 PM
Oct 2014

So he was not actually "Scots-Irish" (as in, Ulster-Scots) in ancestry.

hunter

(38,328 posts)
83. Reagan was the sort who would sell his soul for a blow job.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 07:07 PM
Oct 2014

And he did, multiple times.

Sometimes I wonder if the devil admires that behavior or feels cheated.

TeamPooka

(24,255 posts)
53. This is fucking racist bullshit. The Irish make up the most liberal Democrats that I know.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:54 PM
Oct 2014

This is another questionable post from this Poster.

fifthoffive

(382 posts)
55. The book this article is based on is an attempt to explain southern white rural violence.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:55 PM
Oct 2014

Extrapolating a "warlike" culture from 250+ years ago on a different continent (assuming that is even true!) to explain today's complex societal problems in the South is nothing short of bollocks. To use it to explain political motivation is irresponsible ethnic prejudice.

Nisbett and Cohen's thesis is controversial at best, and dead wrong at worst.

http://reason.com/archives/1997/02/01/a-matter-of-respect

If there is, indeed, a culture of honor in the South that lends itself to violence, where did it come from? And why is it uniquely Southern? Here Culture of Honor is rather thin and unpersuasive: "We believe that the southern culture of honor derives from the herding economy brought to the region by the earliest settlers and practiced by them for many decades thereafter." Elsewhere the authors refer to the Scotch-Irish origins of the early South, the hard-scrabble herding economy of the era, and the "worldwide" association between herding economies and "concerns about honor and readiness to commit violence to conserve it."

Nisbett and Cohen call this argument "the weakest part of our thesis," with good reason. The implication is that Yankees of Scotch-Irish origins would be just as prone to violence as Southerners, which is not likely to be the case. This is not to suggest that the herding thesis is wrong, only that it seems rather a stretch as argued here. One would like to see evidence on the origins of the Southern culture of violence that is as persuasive as the evidence of its existence. The evidence assembled here, while certainly intriguing and even fascinating at times, does not rule out alternative explanations for the higher rate of violence in the South--including my favorite, originally proposed by Sheldon Hackney as early as 1970: "In the South, there's just more folks who need killing."


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/200904/is-southern-violence-due-culture-honor

Nisbett and colleagues collected a variety of evidence that appeared to back up their theory that the type of agriculture practiced, specifically herding as opposed to farming, promoted a culture of honor leading to violent crime (1).

The problem is that when some of their key evidence was carefully re-evaluated, a very different conclusion was reached (2). Rebecca Chu and others investigated the white non-Hispanic male homicide rates in rural counties in the South as a function of the type of agriculture practiced. They evaluated the prediction that homicide rates would be higher in counties that were arid and hilly and thus more suitable for herding than farming (and therefore conducive to a culture of honor). They concluded:
"Although we analyze similar data and address the same conceptual issues, we find no support for the Nisbett-Reaves hypothesis. Overall, white male homicides in rural counties in the South do not vary as predicted by Nisbett's theory. Moreover, for some estimates of white male homicide rates, when county homicides are adjusted for differences in white poverty, the patterns are directly opposite to the Nisbett-Reaves predictions" (2, p. 972).

The very different conclusions of the two teams of researchers boil down to a mundane statistical technicality about how to deal with the very small number of homicides in some rural counties but the reanalysis is clearly correct.

The tragedy of science, according to Aldous Huxley is when a beautiful theory gets killed off by an ugly fact. Fans of the herding culture of honor theory have either ignored the contradictory evidence or pointed to evidence that Southern whites still have higher violent crime rates than northern whites - even if they move north (3). Oddly, this violent streak skips women and urban residents (4).

So where does that leave us? First, the herding explanation for violent tendencies of Southern white men was clearly falsified in relation to homicides. Second, the higher levels of homicide by whites in rural counties of the South can be fully explained in terms of poverty.


politicat

(9,808 posts)
88. If they're going to blame 2 centuries back for a culture of violence, look at the Cavaliers.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:19 PM
Oct 2014

Political assassination? Check. Civil War over insults? Check. Duelling? Check.

Them thar are noble traits, not commoner.

(I hate bad cultural history. Not big on broad brush, but at least get the paint color right.)

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
57. The correct term is Scotch-Irish.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 02:58 PM
Oct 2014

and that is my paternal heritage, although there are probably more German and English folks among my roots than Scotch-Irish. Several responses have pointed out what racist bullshit this post is. It is the second such screed I have seen on DU in about a month. Like other people, descendants of Northern Irish Protestants who settled in North America -- and that is what the term means -- people of that heritage have opinions that reflect the conditions in which they live. Most of us live in counties that are losing population because there is little economic opportunity. People who live in those regions tend to have pretty reactionary ideas, although, just to the same extent, their grandparents tended to be New Dealers. And by the way, our ancestors were not herding people -- at least not in the last 1000 years. They were farmers pretty much like other people. Wealth was land, not cows. Just a small sample of the ignorance contained in this dangerous political fantasy.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
68. Scotch is a kind of whiskey.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 04:48 PM
Oct 2014

If you are a person of Scottish descent you are either "Scots" or "Scottish". Not "Scotch". My friend whose mother was an English war bride corrected me on that.

I'm Scots-Irish on my mother's side, English on my Dad's side. Basically very WASPy. What I call "white bread".

I graduated from a Presbyterian college. Three generations of Democrats on both sides. I've read Jim Webb's book.

rogerashton

(3,920 posts)
69. What you say is correct. But
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 05:01 PM
Oct 2014

"Scots" is the modern term; "Scotch" is slang or archaic. But the term "Scotch-Irish" is also archaic, really a term from the 1700s. "Scots" with no hyphen is correct. But Scotch-Irish is also correct. An acquaintance of mine, born and raised in Ireland, living in Glasgow, might be (as he said) Scots-Irish, or more probably Irish-Scots, but not Scotch-Irish. The Scotch-Irish, like the Pennsylvania Dutch (my other half) and the Acadians, are nationalities that only exist in North America and differentiated themselves here in the 1700's (or in the case of Acadians, 1600s). And I have also read Webb's book: my English-midlands wife gave it to me and insisted.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
61. This article is so full of historical flaws I don't even know where to begin
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 03:11 PM
Oct 2014

First: The Scots-Irish folks who settled the Appalachians didn't migrate down from Maine and New Hampshire. A majority of them came in through ports in the Philadelphia area, migrated to western PA and then down the spine of the Appalachian mountains.

Second: The author confuses Southern culture with Appalachian culture. They are NOT the same, not in language, customs or history.

Third: Central and Southern Appalachia were the strongholds of Southern Unionists. Much of that was due to the fact that many mountain people felt the Confederacy was formed solely to uphold the interests of agrarian slaveholders in the flatlands. It was, yes, a matter of geography that led to great differences in the two cultures.

I could go on but one could write an entire thesis punching holes through this article. There are Scots-Irish throughout the country and yes, in New England and in the South, too, but there are as many reasons for why they came here as there are differences in how these communities developed depending on where they settled.

What a bunch of hooey and poor scholarship.

get the red out

(13,468 posts)
63. Well
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 03:31 PM
Oct 2014

I'm Welch-English, live in the south, and have a Border Collie who wants to herd cats. WTF am I?????? It's scary.

 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
65. This article is five years old.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 03:45 PM
Oct 2014

You must feel that everything in the political landscape is the same as it was in 2009, and therefore this article is still relevant?

hunter

(38,328 posts)
66. The Protestant vs. Catholic warfare has always been intense in my family.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 03:49 PM
Oct 2014

Two of my ancestors fled Britain for the American West, for shame, when a proud Protestant Scots-Irish young man fell for a fiery young Catholic woman, which was both a common occurrence and literary device. On the surface this branch of the family was Protestant, mostly because that's where the money was. Catholicism was kept in the closet, but it was kept. Prejudice against the Catholic Irish was still very strong most places.

The other branch of my family was "not-Mormon," a mix of religious people and heretics who built a life within Mormon territories as "not-Mormons." If someone needed some not-Mormon mediation, or alcoholic beverages, it was useful to have discreet connections, people who wouldn't out Mormon sins and weaknesses to other Mormons.

Among my children's and their cousins' generation the Irish Catholic has reasserted itself. The Protestant veneer has evaporated and even the agnostics and atheists among them are Irish Catholic style agnostics and atheists.

There are undoubtedly Scots-Irish influences on Southeastern culture, but the generalization strikes me as too broad. The greatest influence on that culture were clearly slavery and class. The uber-wealthy whites on top, who no doubt considered themselves English sorts of Lords and Ladies, the mostly Scots-Irish working and fighting classes, and the slaves. In the end it's the class structures that mattered more than the national origins of the classes.

Such class structures still exist today in agricultural California with white Republican landowners on top, and undocumented workers, mostly from Mexico, on the bottom. And one can't help but notice that the civil rights of these undocumented workers are limited and they are always at risk of being sent away, especially if they cause "trouble."

 

Tom Ripley

(4,945 posts)
67. This French and Native American son of the south has no quarrel with this study
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 03:52 PM
Oct 2014

Why do you think the newly emancipated African Americans coined the highly descriptive term "peckerwood" for the S-I?

ladyVet

(1,587 posts)
71. What do they mean by "herders"?
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 05:44 PM
Oct 2014

I just wonder if they think this load of shit relates to any of the other "herding cultures", like, say, from Africa? Or maybe the Middle East? Or how about South America? Or the Native American tribes?

I'd bet there is no way this would be used to explain violence from any of those cultures. White people in the South as targets for lame-ass theories = another excuse to blame us for everything that's wrong in the world.

Here's a clue: we all are descended from herding cultures. Before that, we were descended from hunter-gatherers. You know, the folks who lived in caves. Maybe that's where all the violence came from. Hard living stuck up each other's ass in a little hole in the rock.

Or maybe we should look to the genome, and see if we can find a real answer, rather than blaming it on something that happened a few hundred years ago. Because hatred and violence are in all ethnic backgrounds.

 

AngryAmish

(25,704 posts)
75. Reiver cultures everywhere tend to like violence
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 05:54 PM
Oct 2014

Chechens, for example. Pashtuns. Most of the mobile steppe cultures from Parthians through the Golden Horde. Heck the Cossacks.

On edit: How could I have forgot the Hmong and Ghurkas? Those folks like to fight as well.

 

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)
73. I think the reality is far more complicated than this...
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 05:49 PM
Oct 2014

For one thing, "Scots-Irish" isn't actually a discrete ethnic group. For another, most white Americans have a wide range of ancestries-yes, I'm including Southerners in this as well.

Broad-brush generalizations hurt more than they help.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
78. Well I am Scots-Irish. People are not their
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 06:09 PM
Oct 2014

ancestors. People are not defined by their culture. People can choose to act in deference to their upbringing. My dad was a white racist from the South. I never became a racist.
I find this line of thinking sort of racist itself.

politicat

(9,808 posts)
87. But that's terrible cultural history. It doesn't work.
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 09:11 PM
Oct 2014

Point this is missing: Each wave of immigration to North America was separatist as hell and badly behaved in multiple ways that continue to influence contemporary culture. New England Puritans were insular schmucks who wanted the ability to isolate their children from anything they didn't like. (Where do we see this now? Homeschooling fundies? Separatists? How did that streak get here?) New Amsterdam was willing to lie, cheat and steal from anybody to make a buck. (Hi, Wjal Straet!) Midlanders took the best and worst of all sets of neighbors -- slavery, religious intolerance, and profit motive. Norteño culture made all of the East Coast settlements look like massive advances in human rights, in that Norteño priests tended to pretend to let their conquered Native Americans go once they were sufficiently assimilated, but really never did, and infected them with several dozen diseases, and destroyed major cultural and infrastructural markers, like pueblo cities and canals. (Everyone brought good things, too, but this is about blame, so bad only for now.)

The Deep South and Tidewater south was primarily English Midlanders and Home Counties subsequent sons, plus their retinues, so Deep South/Tidewater does have a history and social structure of covert/overt feudalism plus poorly translated noblesse oblige, plus a deep bench class structure rather than broad and shallow. They tended to arrive as individuals with (perhaps a bride and) servants in tow, not as a complete extended family. The "gentlemen" tended to respect each others' boundaries, extending the concept of libertas to one another, but nobody else. Thus,
1) large plots of estate land with minimal investment in mercantile, manufacturing, transportation or educational infrastructure (because the damn villages were always where trouble started at home, so let's not have those)
2) the development of the American plantation structure (plantation originally meant something like farm estate, not Gone With the Wind or Barbados) and
3) indentured servitude followed by slavery when the supply of indentured servants got expensive and short.

The Deep South and Tidewater 'gentlemen' were primarily dispossessed Cavaliers who arrived in the mid-17th to early 18th centuries -- those displaced by the English Civil War, or their sons, or those who survived Cromwell, but failed to make nice at the Restoration (collaboration is such an unpleasant word...) or those who just didn't manage to survive with fortunes intact enough to provide for subsequent children. (Note that New England Puritan and Dissenter Protestant migrations stopped when Cromwell came to power -- why leave when your party is in power?)

The Borderlander Northern English, Scots and Scots-Irish were primarily late comers (1750s through end of Napoleonic Wars) who arrived after the coastal land was taken. They tended to push west almost immediately upon arrival (thus West Virginia, Western New York, the Ohio River Valley, then the middle Midwest (Southern Indiana and Illinois, Kentucky) then eventually Missouri, Arkansas and eastern Kansas are considered Borderlander territory, as well as the middle of Canada -- look at a distribution of Campbells, MacKenzies and McCoys west of Quebec.). They tended to emigrate as full families or clans, often pooling resources to secure a single ship for the clan/family use, or sending scouts to lay claims, then sending for everyone else. The northern English/low Scots vernacular for the word commonly translated as freedom is much closer to the northern Germanic/Norse freiheit than the Latin/Greek libertas.

Those two words matter, because how one learns to interpret freedom as a child will affect how one behaves politically for life. Libertas -- liberty -- is the philosophy that social equality and participation is a privilege to be earnedor bestowed rather than a birthright. ("With liberty and justice for all" is a nonsense phrase in libertas philosophy, but "liberty of the seas" or the liberty of the House of Commons, which existed at the discretion of a higher power (the monarch), makes sense.) It is not an egalitarian philosophy, and much more resembles the English House of Lords or the Roman Senate than say, the Norse alething (or the eastern English guild and town councils that descended from the Danelander invaders and evolved into Yankee town meetings). Libertas is primarily inherited, but may be earned through service or exemplary merit; it is not given away lightly.

Freiheit is the old Germanic (and thus Norse, Dane and Saxon) concept of birthright freedom, that all people are born equal, and earn privilege rather than rights through effort. The descent of libertas shows in Jim Crow laws, in that they placed additional burdens for suffrage, and in separate but equal, in that they defined and codified a class society. The descent of freiheit shows in the Midlands (Quaker egalitarianism), in New Amsterdam (the Dutch had perfected freiheit by the time they kicked out the Spanish in the 17th century, mostly due to the forced cooperation of living on marshland and having to deal with levees to keep the ocean out of the polders), in New England (since East Anglia settled New England, and Suffolk, Norfolk and Essex were first heavily invaded by the Danes, then were never as Normanized as the Home counties in the center of the English south), then in the Upper Midwest (which was mostly Yankees tired of New England winters and soil) and Cascadia (more Yankees.)

Borderlanders had a deep cultural meld with the Norse, who brought both the alething and the clan-raid structure to Northern Great Britain, and thus the Borderlanders brought it with them as an interfamilial working structure when they emigrated. On the other hand, Borderlanders had, by then, had several hundred years of getting screwed by the southern English Norman descendents, and had been pushed off their pre-Norman Invasion lands at least many times. So ceding authority to nobility or even descended nobility who acted like they were still landed and titled was never a really strong part of the borderlander culture. Not so much on the cooperation with the authorities. They had also spent centuries surviving slow and sometimes speedy genocide because they kept the strong clan structure, but had emplaced a hierarchy within the family/clan -- non-combatants deferred to combatants, children to parents and women to men, because while being displaced is not the time for a council meeting. (Thus, expectations of authoritarianism within the clan and especially within the family -- as is often seen in displaced cultures.)

Borderlanders did make excellent mercenaries -- which the French noticed and used from the 12th century until 1603 when James became king of both Scotland and England. After that, Borderlander Scots and northern English continued to serve as hired armies during the Thirty Years' War and the Wars of Spanish Succession, right up until the end of the Napoleonics in 1815. (Quite a lot of Borderlander immigrants to the US and Canada in the 1815-1825 period financed their move through Napoleonic war plunder and prizes.) To this day, a significant percentage of both UK and US armed forces come from Borderlander stock. That's not a genetic issue, but if your family prizes a strong warrior ethic, that tends to get passed down.

The herding is accurate -- when your ancestral line has been displaced about a gazillion times, why bother putting any of your wealth in anything that stays put? Better that it has legs and can be moved to the next safe haven instead of having to burn it to keep it out of enemy hands yet again. But that applies to Borderlanders, not to Tidewater or the Deep South, who definitely expected to keep their stuff just where they left it, and their wealth where they could see it. (My spouse, upon hearing this theory, and himself being an Appalachian Norse-Scot descendent of the Fitzgeralds, sighed, nodded, and said, "so that explains NASCAR and mobile homes. At least I come by it honestly." NASCAR, because putting one's wealth into something with motive power means the ability to make a getaway as needed; mobiles because if weather or decay destroys it or an exterior agent (usually government, but possibly a rival) seizes it, not much wealth is lost, and they're comfortable enough to live in for a while.)

But classing the Deep South, Tidewater and Appalachia as the same culture and specifically responsible -- BS. Point first at the heritage and wealth factors of reflected aristocracy and the flawed concept of limited liberty. It also has almost nothing to do with a genetic inheritance and with cultural place heritage -- having watched second gen Hindi and Iranian kids grow up in Wheeling to be just as Borderlander as my spouse (his high school chums are interesting), it's a case of dominant culture assimilating those in the sphere. I've also watched Anglo-Dutch, Vietnamese, Cambodian and South African children who grew up on the Mexico border assimilate to Norteño culture (example: Korean tacos), and second generation Yankee children turn into Deep Southers. Look at any group of military kids -- their primary culture is not whatever their DNA says, it's Mil Brat. And not everyone in a sphere of influence adopts all or even most of the dominant culture -- but a dominant culture is dominant, and that provides a useful start point for understanding a local power structure. But the point is local -- which can't be said for multiple waves of immigrants coming from vastly different cultural backgrounds over almost three centuries to completely different environmental conditions.

Yes, we are still fighting the remnants of the Protestant Reformation, the English Civil War and the Restoration in our school boards, congressional elections and city councils. Yes, it's a class struggle, primarily between the descended power structures of Norman aristocrats and Romano-Norse-Saxons. The Calvinism doesn't show so much in the Deep and Tidewater South -- those were Establishment religious structures, not Dissenter, and the strongest high status churches in the Tidewater and Deep South are still Episcopalian to High Baptist, not low church. (Duh. See Puritans immigrating to places where they could discriminate and stopping when they got power of their own.) While Borderlanders tended towards Dissenters, they were often mainstream Dissenters of the Lutheran/Arminian flavors (Methodist, Baptist, Anabaptist) not Calvinist (though Presbyterian did have a significant moiety.) They mostly didn't believe in an Elect, a central tenet of Calvinism, because an Elect is too much like an aristocracy, and they'd had enough of that down here, thankyouverymuch. The resurgence of Calvinism (and thus post-modern Evangelicalism) is a late 19th to early 20th century phenomenon that started in the Midwest, where Borderlanders, Westerners and New England descendant Midlanders met and recombined.

Dropping this whole regional divide at the Borderlanders' feet is not so much racist as classist as hell, and deterministic, and that is the major flaw. It's important to not underestimate the power of "but we've always done it this way" whenever considering local power structures, and the US doesn't have a significantly long history of "always", so yes, understanding where the seeds were transplanted from matters. But it's more important to know the history (and get it right), to keep from repeating it.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
92. If someone started a thread on the "African culture" from which many American blacks are descended,
Tue Oct 7, 2014, 11:44 PM
Oct 2014

and proceeded to make a whole bunch of sweeping generalizations and assumptions, I wonder how that would be received?

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