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Lady Freedom Returns

(14,120 posts)
Tue Oct 14, 2014, 09:07 PM Oct 2014

PBS Newshour: Should the terminally ill be able to choose when they die?

A LFR Note: I am all for people who are terminally ill being able to have this option. Also the question has come up "What if she changes her mind on Nov. 1st?" I support that too. This is her decision.

I fully support people that, if it is confirmed, that they are dieing, no if, and. what or maybe, then they should have this right. I personally think it is big money that s scared that people may decide to not spend a huge amount of money to prolong the inevitable.

Those who wants to keep fighting, even if it is inevitable, fine, more power to you. But don't stop others from finding comfort.

Published on Oct 14, 2014
After being diagnosed with terminal brain cancer, 29-year-old Brittany Maynard moved her family from California to Oregon to die on her own terms. Oregon law allows Maynard to take lethal prescription medication to end her life. Jeffrey Brown gets debate from Barbara Coombs Lee of Compassion & Choices and Dr. Ira Byock of Providence Institute for Human Caring.


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PBS Newshour: Should the terminally ill be able to choose when they die? (Original Post) Lady Freedom Returns Oct 2014 OP
Yes! Downwinder Oct 2014 #1
In a humane world, it wouldn't even be a question. nt Mnemosyne Oct 2014 #2
^^This^^^ Gormy Cuss Oct 2014 #50
yep..... dhill926 Oct 2014 #3
Of course they should. GeorgeGist Oct 2014 #4
The late great Booth Gardner had something to say about this PSPS Oct 2014 #5
But then how would big pharma be able to bleed your very last dollar from you? Throd Oct 2014 #6
And what about all that income that hospitals will lose for needlessly Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #38
Not everything in the world is about Big Pharma you know. HERVEPA Oct 2014 #39
It was illegal long before "Big Pharma" was a thing. arcane1 Oct 2014 #54
YES. Absolutely. Triana Oct 2014 #7
Easiest question ever. Of course they should. tridim Oct 2014 #8
Yes. It's her body. It's her life. So it's HER choice. calimary Oct 2014 #9
Everyone should have the choice, period. Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #22
I agree completely get the red out Oct 2014 #32
Yes. Yay for states that allow this and for families/friends who support the decision. uppityperson Oct 2014 #10
Without hesitation, yes. n/t justhanginon Oct 2014 #11
Yes Solly Mack Oct 2014 #12
YES!!!!! BrotherIvan Oct 2014 #13
I'm pretty sure that I will decide my time.... panader0 Oct 2014 #14
You should see the vitriol leveled at Zeke Emanuel Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #35
Death panels have been here for quite some time... we call them Health Insurance Companies. LanternWaste Oct 2014 #41
Yes Takket Oct 2014 #15
Yes. onyourleft Oct 2014 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author onyourleft Oct 2014 #16
A dear friend of mine had ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease) HeiressofBickworth Oct 2014 #18
ALS is one awful disease Gormy Cuss Oct 2014 #51
I believe in the right to choose to end one's life at any time -- WhiteAndNerdy Oct 2014 #19
I agree. F4lconF16 Oct 2014 #20
Why force someone to live with depression all their life? Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #23
I agree with you, Ampersand. WhiteAndNerdy Oct 2014 #45
How do you "fave" a comment here like on HuffPost Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #48
Here's how: Hit "Reply" then look at the line of buttons below the Reply Title box.... Hekate Oct 2014 #49
I 100% agree with you F4lconF16 Oct 2014 #58
I agree 100%. MH1 Oct 2014 #63
I'd thumbs-up your post but I can't find an upvote button Ampersand Unicode Oct 2014 #24
Absolutely. Earth_First Oct 2014 #21
Is this something different than a living will? jwirr Oct 2014 #25
Yes. yewberry Oct 2014 #59
Okay. My father died of cancer and in the last days the pain relievers did not work. When I got jwirr Oct 2014 #62
Absolutely yes. That should be each individuals choice. nt stevenleser Oct 2014 #26
Yes. n/t Paper Roses Oct 2014 #27
Yes they should. nt arthritisR_US Oct 2014 #28
Uh no, they should be forced to suffer???? I mean WTF. grahamhgreen Oct 2014 #29
I have wanted this for as long as I can remember get the red out Oct 2014 #30
Of course. And in Oregon, you can be prescribed drugs to take yourself out. Shrike47 Oct 2014 #31
She moved to Oregon from California to do this. KamaAina Oct 2014 #46
We each only get one death lapislzi Oct 2014 #33
Yes In_The_Wind Oct 2014 #34
Yes i support the terminally ill having the right to legally have the right to end their life and hrmjustin Oct 2014 #36
I'm amazed that this is still being debated. Also, all states need the right-to-die Arugula Latte Oct 2014 #37
Dr. Ira Nyock in this video is being totally disingenuous. HERVEPA Oct 2014 #40
Everybody should, but them first yes. whatthehey Oct 2014 #42
Absolutely! nruthie Oct 2014 #43
Yes, yes. RebelOne Oct 2014 #44
The danger of assisted suicide laws KamaAina Oct 2014 #47
That sounds a lot like FUD to me. My question about assisted suicide which I totally support, shraby Oct 2014 #52
What is FUD? KamaAina Oct 2014 #55
Fear, uncertainty and doubt. shraby Oct 2014 #56
The author, your personal friend, was evidently drawn in by... DreamGypsy Oct 2014 #57
That expresses a valid concern. MH1 Oct 2014 #64
Yes, but... NuclearDem Oct 2014 #53
ABSOLUTELY. theHandpuppet Oct 2014 #60
Yes. Peoples' bodies belong to themselves, not the State, not "God" Warren DeMontague Oct 2014 #61

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
50. ^^This^^^
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:15 PM
Oct 2014

Terminal means you're on a downward slope to death and if you want to exit before medical interventions can sustain you with low quality of life, it should be your choice. Similarly, if you want to take every last ditch effort offered, it should also be your choice.

Throd

(7,208 posts)
6. But then how would big pharma be able to bleed your very last dollar from you?
Tue Oct 14, 2014, 09:47 PM
Oct 2014

Fuck your relatives, friends, and charities, it's THEIR money!

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
38. And what about all that income that hospitals will lose for needlessly
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:11 PM
Oct 2014

stretching out someone's life?

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
39. Not everything in the world is about Big Pharma you know.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:18 PM
Oct 2014

Maybe point some some blame at some churches, including the Catholic.
That's only if you want to be accurate.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
54. It was illegal long before "Big Pharma" was a thing.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:20 PM
Oct 2014

Though don't be surprised that hospitals, doctors, and churches HATE assisted suicide.

 

Triana

(22,666 posts)
7. YES. Absolutely.
Tue Oct 14, 2014, 09:47 PM
Oct 2014

We don't get to choose if/when/to whom we are born. We damn well ought to be able to choose when/why/how we die - especially if one is diagnosed as terminally ill.

calimary

(81,261 posts)
9. Yes. It's her body. It's her life. So it's HER choice.
Tue Oct 14, 2014, 09:49 PM
Oct 2014

And I'm sure all her loved ones agree. Who wants to see someone they love suffer like this? Especially when you all know for sure how it's going to end anyway? The only losers are those who'd make money off keeping her alive artificially. Which is just fine with me!

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
22. Everyone should have the choice, period.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 02:44 PM
Oct 2014

The issue should not be about severity of illness. It should be a question about bodily autonomy. Just like we don't allow abortion only in cases of rape, incest or fetal abnormality. Abortion is legal because the woman -- and only the woman -- has the choice of what she wants for her body.

I feel the same way about euthanasia/PAS/"regular" suicide. I remember I got an A on a term paper last year, arguing in favor of complete legalization of "safe and legal" suicide just like we have "safe and legal" abortion. I referred to self-inflicted gunshot wounds, drinking bleach, cutting wrists, etc. as "back alley" suicides, just like similar drastic methods (coat hangers, knitting needles, etc.) are called "back alley" abortions. If someone has made the choice to die it should be nobody's business but their own.

Unfortunately, suicide per se is "illegal" in the sense that if you try to do something, you are legally required to be committed to a mental institution because that's a "crazy" thing to do. Belgium does it so much better. People shouldn't be forced into the catch-22 of how do you get declared sane enough to end your life if wanting to end your life is itself considered symptomatic of mental instability. What about people who want to die because they'll never be cured of mental illness? Shouldn't we allow them the same right as someone who wants to die because they'll never be cured of Parkinson's or ALS? Not "terminal" in the sense that this woman's rare form of cancer is, but debilitating enough to shorten your lifespan and make your life a living hell. Robin Williams decided he didn't want to begin the slow and undignified decline and hanged himself. He was lucky; he could have ended up a vegetable.

It's her life and her decision. As it should be for everyone, no questions asked. My body, myself. Give me liberty; give me death.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
13. YES!!!!!
Tue Oct 14, 2014, 10:43 PM
Oct 2014

And it would be easier for her loved ones not to have to witness her suffering or a painful death. A million times yes.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
35. You should see the vitriol leveled at Zeke Emanuel
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:07 PM
Oct 2014
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/09/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/

I say bring on the death panels, I want to sign up. 75 is really pushing it for me.

I'm looking for 30 or even 27.
 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
41. Death panels have been here for quite some time... we call them Health Insurance Companies.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:46 PM
Oct 2014

Death panels have been here for quite some time... we call them Health Insurance Companies.

Takket

(21,565 posts)
15. Yes
Tue Oct 14, 2014, 11:29 PM
Oct 2014

I've never understood why society feels a dignified death and end to pain for Humans is repugnant, but we show that compassion to our pets. Shouldn't people get the same humane treatment as an animal???

Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Original post)

HeiressofBickworth

(2,682 posts)
18. A dear friend of mine had ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease)
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 04:45 AM
Oct 2014

It was a particularly quick and nasty version. Within about 18 months, she lost her ability to eat, swallow, talk, and then it affected her arms and legs. Her prognosis was that the ALS would eventually affect her breathing muscles and she would strangle to death. She decided on doctor-assisted suicide. At the time, she was living 8 months a year in Holland and 4 months a year in Washington with her parents. The decision was harder on her sons (adults) but everyone knew that the kinder path for her was doctor-assisted suicide. It was not legal in Washington at the time (it is now) so she went home to Holland and died. The only complaint was that the doctors wouldn't allow it at the time she wanted to do it -- they made her wait for six months. She got sicker, weaker and suffered more before they would do it. She should have been allowed to die at a time of HER choosing, not the doctors choosing.

Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
51. ALS is one awful disease
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:17 PM
Oct 2014

and it would be on my short list of reasons why a terminal patient may choose suicide over prolonged deterioration of the body while the mind is intact.

WhiteAndNerdy

(365 posts)
19. I believe in the right to choose to end one's life at any time --
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 05:30 AM
Oct 2014

even if the person is not terminally ill. No one can decide for another person whether his/her life is worth continuing.

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
20. I agree.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 02:33 PM
Oct 2014

If I want to, I should be allowed to die. We support bodily autonomy elsewhere, such as abortion. We should support it here. My body is my own. I have the right to life once born--I should also have the right not to, should I choose.

Of course, assisted suicide should be done by trained professionals, and there should be some sort of mandatory counseling with a doctor first, to pick up any signs of depression or other illness that could be helped.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
23. Why force someone to live with depression all their life?
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 02:50 PM
Oct 2014

Maybe the person doesn't want to be "treated" and spend a life taking psych meds that have numerous side effects and can make the person feel "crazier" than they already are. We don't require a psych eval for women seeking an abortion. We shouldn't either for a safe-and-legal suicide.

Mental illness is incurable, it's chronic, and it's just as crippling and debilitating as other diseases. It also carries a greater stigma than cancer or ALS; people are sympathetic to cancer patients and even did a viral-media charity campaign for Lou Gehrig's disease. But someone who takes a "mental health" day from work is met with fear that they're going to shoot up the place. You can't even say the word "mental" without it being a synonym for crackpot.

If anything, people who want to "die of mental illness" should be a high priority, as not only does their disease have no cure, but for all intents and purposes, the stigma doesn't either. Heck, since we can't even get rid of the stigma of being black in this country, there's a snowball's chance in the desert that we'll get rid of the stigma of being depressed, bipolar, or ADHD.

Everyone gets the choice, period. No matter what.

WhiteAndNerdy

(365 posts)
45. I agree with you, Ampersand.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 06:38 PM
Oct 2014

Depression is as good a reason as any to conclude that one's life is no longer worth living. Many people respond well to treatment, but some don't. No one has the right to tell such a person that they should keep living with it if they don't want to.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
48. How do you "fave" a comment here like on HuffPost
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:00 PM
Oct 2014

Or is this not a feature? I don't see a thumbs-up button or an upwards arrow, I guess I'll just give you another verbal fave?

Hekate

(90,681 posts)
49. Here's how: Hit "Reply" then look at the line of buttons below the Reply Title box....
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:13 PM
Oct 2014

The last one says "smilies." That's the one you want. 79 little icons will show up, plus one with ellipses. The last 3 are "thumbs up," "thumbs down," and "candle." Clicking on any of the 79 icons will give you a little punctuation for your post. Clicking on the ellipses icon will show you a bunch more to choose from.

Smilies will only show up in the body of your post, not in the title line.

Your alternative is to type something like +1 in the title line to indicate agreement.

F4lconF16

(3,747 posts)
58. I 100% agree with you
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 03:43 AM
Oct 2014

And I should have clarified. I'm well aware of mental health problems and the stigma associated with them. A friend may very well choose to commit suicide rather than deal with medical problems she can't afford to treat or just can't treat. This could be in a week or in decade, but when she does I will support her. In no way am I trying to say you need to be "mentally sound" or something before commiting suicide legally.

I still think it's a good idea to do a routine mental health check beforehand--though depression is as good a reason as any to decide to die, many people just need some help or support to get back on their feet. I have one friend that have chosen to kill himself, and very strongly regretted it just before he did. He got help and is glad he didn't, though he still struggles to stay positive.

Now, while this isn't everyone's situation, I think it would be a good idea for a health professional to do a quick physical and psychological evaluation beforehand. If anything is found, then the doctors can offer a treatment or help. Those who still wish to commit suicide then can. I just don't want anybody slipping through the cracks when they could have lived and loved living if someone had talked to them.

Ampersand Unicode

(503 posts)
24. I'd thumbs-up your post but I can't find an upvote button
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 02:52 PM
Oct 2014

I'm still relatively new here and don't know how the upvote system works or even if there is one. HuffPost used to have the famous "Fan & Fave" buttons, but they've since done away with that in favor of "Likes" on Facebook (which I "dislike&quot .

"Faved" in spirit, anyway.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
21. Absolutely.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 02:36 PM
Oct 2014

I would choose this option out of financial necessity for my wife rather than choose to bury my survivors with a mountain of debt.

How's that for where we are as a society...

yewberry

(6,530 posts)
59. Yes.
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 04:06 AM
Oct 2014

A living will refers to life-prolonging treatments when a patient may not be able to communicate his or her wishes. It applies to making wishes about when to continue treatment known, like when someone is in a vegetative state.

This case is about a woman who is not unable to communicate. She is dying but not on her deathbed. In Oregon and Washington, there are laws that allow terminally ill people to submit a request for lethal doses of medication so that they may choose their own deaths.

I'm in WA. I had a friend with a very aggressive cancer. She was 22 and her cancer didn't respond to treatment. Her life became more and more painful and she finally chose to petition her doc for a lethal dose so that she might be able to die when she decided it was time. She got initial approval and passed before the final approval came through.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
62. Okay. My father died of cancer and in the last days the pain relievers did not work. When I got
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:27 AM
Oct 2014

there I went to the nurse whom I had gone to school with and asked her to give him the pain reliever when ever he showed signs of pain. She looked at me and asked "Do you know what you are asking?" Once it was understood that it was by family request it did not take long for his life to end. And he was in peace.

Likewise, when my brother died recently from a motorcycle accident the family asked that all life supports be removed when it was clear that he could be kept alive but that it would be in a vegetative state. He would have never wanted that.

As to this bill my only objection would be that they make sure that it cannot be misused. (I would not want it to be apply to someone with a developmental disability. My daughter would fit the description of many conservatives of someone who is not worth helping. In no way would I want anyone to be able to determine her care. We do have a living will that indicates DNR.) I am not sure how it could be misused but we human beings seem to be able to figure out some of the worst schemes in the world.

Shrike47

(6,913 posts)
31. Of course. And in Oregon, you can be prescribed drugs to take yourself out.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:02 PM
Oct 2014

Thank goodness. Making somebody suffer is heartless.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
33. We each only get one death
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:04 PM
Oct 2014

as we each only get one birth. Birth is completely out of our control.

I would like my eventual death to be a good one. My husband and I have pledged to honor each other by helping the other the other to die a good death. That is, respecting the other's wishes and saying proper goodbyes when the time comes, if we are able. That would also include trying to dissuade the other from something that seems ill-advised, or urging the other to seek the advice of a counselor.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
36. Yes i support the terminally ill having the right to legally have the right to end their life and
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:08 PM
Oct 2014

suffering.

I could not personally do it but I am not sick and my opinion could change if I do get sick. I would support any person I know who was in this situation and have no moral judgment on it.

I don't consider it suicide to be honest. I consider it a way of avoiding more suffering and dying with dignity.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
37. I'm amazed that this is still being debated. Also, all states need the right-to-die
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:09 PM
Oct 2014

like we have in the Pacific Northwest.

This choice is yet another thing that religion has corrupted, resorting in untold human suffering over the years. (The list seems to be endless.)

 

HERVEPA

(6,107 posts)
40. Dr. Ira Nyock in this video is being totally disingenuous.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:43 PM
Oct 2014

I can admire his desire to improve palliative care.
But he totally ignores the information about the woman in question. THe fact that his palliative care will not spare the woman and her family from the indignities that she wishes not to suffer is totally ignored by him and dismissed.
Clear to me from what I've been able to find out about him personally is that he is injecting his religious beliefs into this.

whatthehey

(3,660 posts)
42. Everybody should, but them first yes.
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 03:56 PM
Oct 2014

We need to get over this silly superstitious nonsense that a life-ending decision can never be rational, logical and emotionally valid. It is very simple. When likely future benefit is below likely future harm, what else could it be but ethically, morally and logically sound to pull the plug. This for many people, certainly me, would be an easy decision facing a brief future dominated by agony and infirmity, but even without such a horrific prognosis, there are many non-terminal scenarios where the same decision would be just as correct.

It's an easy step to assuage the main (sensible, ignoring supernaturalism) objection too. Euthanasia should only be available by first person expressed wish after a consultation and waiting period, or documented prior directive. The only exception would be next of kin choice after sudden onset of irreversible catastrophic damage in concert with medical review. No scare stories of HMOs pulling the plug on expensive patients there.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
47. The danger of assisted suicide laws
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 06:42 PM
Oct 2014

Disclaimer: The author is a personal friend, and is at least as progressive as I am.

http://us.cnn.com/2014/10/13/opinion/golden-assisted-suicide/index.html

The legalization of assisted suicide always appears acceptable when the focus is solely on an individual. But it is important to remember that doing so would have repercussions across all of society, and would put many people at risk of immense harm. After all, not every terminal prognosis is correct, and not everyone has a loving husband, family or support system.

As an advocate working on behalf of disability rights for 37 years, and as someone who uses a wheelchair, I am all too familiar with the explicit and implicit pressures faced by people living with chronic or serious disability or disease. But the reality is that legalizing assisted suicide is a deadly mix with the broken, profit-driven health care system we have in the United States.

At less than $300, assisted suicide is, to put it bluntly, the cheapest treatment for a terminal illness. This means that in places where assisted suicide is legal, coercion is not even necessary. If life-sustaining expensive treatment is denied or even merely delayed, patients will be steered toward assisted suicide, where it is legal....

In 2008, came the story that Barbara Wagner, a Springfield, Oregon, woman diagnosed with lung cancer and prescribed a chemotherapy drug by her personal physician, had reportedly received a letter from the Oregon Health Plan stating that her chemotherapy treatment would not be covered. She said she was told that instead, they would pay for, among other things, her assisted suicide.


shraby

(21,946 posts)
52. That sounds a lot like FUD to me. My question about assisted suicide which I totally support,
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:19 PM
Oct 2014

is how do you get insurance companies to honor the life insurance policies people carry. A vast majority of which are to cover burial expenses because most people can't afford an expensive life insurance policy, but try to ease the costs of burial the spouse faces.

 

KamaAina

(78,249 posts)
55. What is FUD?
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:22 PM
Oct 2014

The proposed assisted suicide law in Hawai'i, which I actively fought against, contained language that would have encouraged insurance fraud by allowing coroners to put the underlying disease rather than the lethal dosage as the cause of death!

DreamGypsy

(2,252 posts)
57. The author, your personal friend, was evidently drawn in by...
Thu Oct 16, 2014, 12:05 AM
Oct 2014

...the FUD, as Shraby so aptly put it.

Check out this article (yes it's an opinion) from the Portland Oregonian, November 29, 2008: Sensationalizing a sad case cheats the public of sound debate:

In the crucial period leading up to Washington State's vote on an Oregon-style Death with Dignity law, this newspaper published a story featuring Barbara Wagner. A sensational story, an easy media "gotcha" on Oregon's Medicaid program, it completely missed the deeper questions crucial to public understanding of end-of-life care and our national healthcare debate.

Readers will recall Wagner as a 64-year-old Springfield resident with end stage lung cancer, a life-long smoker enrolled in the Oregon Health Plan (OHP). Over several years the OHP had paid for extensive cancer treatment and it continued to pay for Wagner's healthcare until her death.

When it became clear that first and second-line therapies had failed and her prognosis was grim, Ms. Wagner's oncologist recommended a costly, third-line cancer drug called Tarceva. Research indicates that 8 percent of advanced lung cancers respond to Tarceva, with a chance to extend life from an average of 4 months to 6 months. The likelihood of no response to the drug is 92 percent, yet 19 percent of patients develop toxic side effects like diarrhea and rash. Based on the low indicators of effectiveness, Oregon Health Plan denied coverage.

<snip>

As a publicly funded service, Oregon Health Plan aims to do the greatest good it can. It assigns a high priority to preventive care, health maintenance, and treatments that offer a near-certain cure. Elective, cosmetic or ineffective, "futile" care is not covered. Futile care is defined as any treatment without at least a 5 percent chance of 5 year survival. "We can't cover everything for everyone," said the medical director of OHP. "Taxpayer dollars are limited for publicly funded programs. We try to come up with policies that provide the most good for the most people."

The OHP letter denying one ineffective treatment did not close the door on all care. It included a long list of appropriate end-of-life care that OHP would pay for, including hospice, medical equipment, palliative services and state-of-the-art pain and symptom management. Yes, the list included medication prescribed under the Oregon Death with Dignity Act.The media juxtaposed denial of Tarceva with coverage for aid in dying in a sensational, emotional manner, suggesting the two were related. Many stories ensued about supposedly callous bureaucrats refusing to prolong life but agreeing to shorten it. It made for a catchy story ... but not truthful journalism.

Was it true that Ms. Wagner was harmed in any manner? Or that Tarceva was an efficacious option?

Ms. Wagner received Tarceva, anyway, when the drug's manufacturer, Genentech, responding to the media firestorm and provided it at no cost. News stories never mentioned that when Wagner bet on the remote chance to prolong life, she probably turned her back on hospice care, widely recognized as the gold standard for end-of-life care. Sadly, it turned out Tarceva didn't help Wagner and she lived only a short time after starting the drug.

While the media widely reported OHP's denial of this expensive experimental treatment, we worry the media missed the important issues inherent in the story.

What do patients like Wagner really understand about the "last hope" treatments their doctors offer? Do doctors inform patients of the true statistical chance these therapies will prolong life, or the chance of toxic side effects that diminish the quality of the short life that remains? Might Wagner have been better served, and perhaps even lived longer, if her doctors had referred her to hospice instead of recommending a drug so toxic and so unlikely to extend her life? How many times do patients lose out on the real hope and comfort hospice offers because they are encouraged to grasp for the small hope of largely ineffective chemotherapy? Do financial incentives play a role in whether physicians recommend long-shot chemotherapy instead of comprehensive comfort care?

While the OHP decision was closely scrutinized, there was no scrutiny of realistic options considered or not considered and the decision-making process. The burning health policy question is whether we inadvertently encourage patients to act against their own self interest, chase an unattainable dream of cure, and foreclose the path of acceptance that curative care has been exhausted and the time for comfort care is at hand. Such encouragement serves neither patients, families, nor the public.

Barbara Roberts, Oregon's wise and gentle former governor, tells in her first book the story of how she and her husband Frank reacted to the news that he had entered the terminal stage of prostate cancer. She describes how immediately after disclosing the grim prognosis, the doctor announced he was setting up an appointment for chemotherapy! Frank asked two crucial questions, "Will this treatment extend my life?" and "For how long." And when the answers, balanced against the likely toxic side effects, didn't add up to how Frank envisioned his last days on earth, he declined the doctor's recommended treatment.

Roberts writes that chemotherapy seemed, "a medical misjudgment encouraged by a culture in denial and a medical profession equally in denial and unwilling to treat death as normal." Frank said "no" to treatment. But he said "yes" to life and began the "hard work of acceptance" of what is means to be mortal.

In order for society to overcome its collective denial of mortality, we desperately need a public dialogue that shuns superficial sensationalism and leads us to, and through, the hard questions. We're Oregonians. We can handle it.


MH1

(17,600 posts)
64. That expresses a valid concern.
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 10:45 AM
Oct 2014

The answer is to fix our broken health care system. A stopgap would be to make letters like Barbara Wagner received illegal. "Treatment isn't covered but your suicide is"? WTF? Even if we dither about covering treatment, it's wrong to push the person to suicide.

That said, if the so-called "treatment" doesn't return the person to some reasonable level of function, hospice (comfort care) is probably the better choice anyway.

No matter how we 'fix' it, there will ALWAYS be a multi-tier health care system, where the extremely wealthy can access care that those less wealthy cannot access, and thus have more choices than the rest of us. There will always be cases where a cost/benefit decision has to be made. As much as possible that should be in the hands of the patient and their families.

But those realities should not stand in the way of allowing people to choose their own manner of death when faced with a terminal or debilitating medical condition.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
53. Yes, but...
Wed Oct 15, 2014, 07:19 PM
Oct 2014

those sorts of decisions also should be prepared for ahead of time. If it's their decision, then so be it, but I would imagine it's best not to make that decision during the pain.

theHandpuppet

(19,964 posts)
60. ABSOLUTELY.
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 06:51 AM
Oct 2014

I have watched too many loved ones forced to endure slow, agonizing deaths that crushed their spirits and stripped them of any dignity. Everyone should have the choice.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
61. Yes. Peoples' bodies belong to themselves, not the State, not "God"
Sat Oct 18, 2014, 07:05 AM
Oct 2014

Themselves, period.

It is through this lens that most of our worst authoritarian clusterfucks- from making terminally ill people suffer, to the drug war, to attempts to control peoples' sex lives and womens' reproductive choices- ought to be viewed for clearer understanding.

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