Kicking down and kissing up: Signs of a classic authoritarian

[Fumesucker]

Last edited Thu Oct 16, 2014, 10:08 AM - Edit history (1)

There is a common misconception about authoritarians, they want to rule everyone. In fact a classic authoritarian is obsequious and servile to those perceived to be of a higher social status or possible utility while at the same time being extremely harsh and strict with anyone they judge to be their social inferior and of no utility to them.

Watching the reactions in the M$M to this Ebola story has been interesting, every time there has been a screwup their first reaction is to blame the lowest status person they can find (unless they can somehow make it Obama's fault, they do have another agenda).

First it was the triage nurse did not pass on that Mr Duncan had been in Liberia, it took a couple of days for that to be shot down. But notice that the fact the doctor who signed him out missed it too has been entirely dropped like it never happened. Notice also that the the fact the doctor treated what he diagnosed as a viral condition with antibiotics has been dropped from the conversation.

Next it was nurse Pham, she had "breached protocols", again it took a few days for them to get slammed upside the head with the fact that for all practical purposes there were no protocols for some time after Mr Duncan was returned to the hospital. They implicitly believed the management story and did not bother to do any investigation with lower level employees.

Now it's nurse Vinson, the authoritarians exploded with rage at nurse Vinson for traveling but when it is revealed later the same day that the CDC was consulted and assented to the travel their rage was instantly muted rather than directed at the perceived social superior.

Watch for this reaction, if someone's first instinct is to believe that some little person screwed up hugely and the institution is blameless there's a decent chance you are witnessing an authoritarian in action.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Dead nuts on. nt

[RufusTFirefly]

39. Nuts to you too, Manny!

"Pea-nuts! Pea-nuts!"

[MannyGoldstein]

65. Duck Soup?

Starring Groucho Marx as Hillary and Margaret Dumont as the Democratic Party?

[RufusTFirefly]

67. Haha! Perfect!

Same impeccable social skills for one. Same inability to grasp the obvious for the other.

By the way, in the same way the Nicaraguan Contras were the moral equivalent to our Founding Fathers, I see a certain board's Distractivists as an online version of Harpo in Monkey Business when he got to the Customs and Immigration table and started tossing documents around.

[dorkzilla]

115. You're not Maurice Chevalier!

For reasons I can't explain, to me this is the funniest scene of any Marx Brother's movie....

I think the French subtitles in this clip just enhance the silliness...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7clor_les-marx-et-mooorice-chevalier_shortfilms

[TheSarcastinator]

2. terrific post and spot-on accurate

These are folks unwilling or unable to think outside of hierarchy & perceived authority. Great post.

[merrily]

3. I can't define authoritarianism, but I know it when I see it.

Something like what the SCOTUS once said about porn, only authoritarianism is probably less productive than porn.

In fact a classic authoritarian is obsequious and servile to those perceived to be of a higher social status while at the same time being extremely harsh and strict with anyone they judge to be their social inferior.

I agree, with two qualifications. I don't know if authoritarians are servile based on perceived social status or based on who they think that help the authoritarian achieve their goals. For example, a politician may outrank the minister of a relatively small church in social status, but, if the politician thinks the minister can help him or her get elected or reelected, watch the authoritarian politician kiss up.

Then, of course, there was Poppy Bush blaming April Glasbie for allegedly giving Hussein the go signal on invading Kuwait.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie


You can't make up stuff like that. The most powerful man in the world, the Commander in Chief of the US military forces and the chief executive of the executive branch in which Glasbie was a relatively low level employee.

And Dimson blaming Tenet (or was it Curveball) for the invasion of Iraq when Dimson said during a 2004 Presidential debate that he regretted having trusted people he should not have trusted. This, from the man who claimed to be able to see Putin's soul.

ETA: I forgot to add the second qualification: at some point, the authoritarian is at the top of his or her particular food chain and there is no one perceived higher to kiss up, but there are tons of people perceived lower to pass the buck down to. Unless you're Harry Truman.

[xocet]

6. "The Authoritarians" by Bob Altemeyer is an interesting read....

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

[merrily]

11. Thanks.

Sadly, I have more books on my list than I will ever get to read, even if live to 200, which highly unlikely.

[xocet]

48. No problem - here is a "Cliff's Notes" introduction to the book. Either this will shorten your list

or possibly make the book's full form more enticing....

The author defines a Right Wing Authoritarian (RWA) as one who "readily submits to established authorities in society, attacks others in their name, and is highly conventional." (The Authoritarians, pg. 9) This classification does NOT refer to the political doctrine that these "established authorities" and their followers have - their doctrine could be either conservative or liberal; the RWA classification is very loosely a "personality type."

Please see pg. 10 of the book for a presentation of the Right Wing Authoritarian Scale - it's hard to do a "Cliff's Notes" introduction in four paragraphs maximum.

The Authoritarians, pgs. 30-34.

Unauthoritarians and Authoritarians: Worlds of Difference

By now you must be developing a feel for what high RWAs think and do, and also an impression of low RWAs. (23) Do you think you know each group well enough to predict what they’d do if they ran the world? One night in October, 1994 I let a group of low RWA university students determine the future of the planet (you didn’t know humble researchers could do this, did you!). Then the next night I gave high RWAs their kick at the can.

The setting involved a rather sophisticated simulation of the earth’s future called the Global Change Game, which is played on a big map of the world by 50-70 participants who have been split into various regions such as North America, Africa, India and China. The players are divided up according to current populations, so a lot more students hunker down in India than in North America. The game was designed to raise environmental awareness, (24) and before the exercise begins players study up on their region’s resources, prospects, and environmental issues.

...

The Low RWA Game

...

The High RWA Game

The next night 68 high RWAs showed up for their ride, just as ignorant of how they had been funneled into this run of the experiment as the low RWA students had been the night before. The game proceeded as usual. Background material was read, Elites (all males) nominated themselves, and the Elites were briefed. Then the “wedgies” started. As soon as the game began, the Elite from the Middle East announced the price of oil had just doubled. A little later the former Soviet Union (known as the Confederation of Independent States in 1994) bought a lot of armies and invaded North America. The latter had insufficient conventional forces to defend itself, and so retaliated with nuclear weapons. A nuclear holocaust ensued which killed everyone on earth--7.4 billion people--and almost all other forms of life which had the misfortune of co-habitating the same planet as a species with nukes.

...

The authoritarian world ended in disaster for many reasons. One was likely the character of their Elites, who put more than twice as much money in their own pockets as the low RWA Elites had. (The Middle East Elite ended up the World’s Richest Man; part of his wealth came from money he had conned from Third World Elites as payment for joining his alliance.) But more importantly, the high RWAs proved incredibly ethnocentric. There they were, in a big room full of people just like themselves, and they all turned their backs on each other and paid attention only to their own group. They too were all reading from the same page, but writ large on their page was, “Care About Your Own; We Are NOT All In This Together.”

...

http://members.shaw.ca/jeanaltemeyer/drbob/TheAuthoritarians.pdf

[merrily]

49. Thank you again.

[deafskeptic]

33. I second this book. n/t

[pscot]

59. how many ordinary people do you think an evil authority would have to order to kill

you before he found someone who would, unjustly, out of sheer obedience, just because the authority said to? What sort of person is most likely to follow such an order? What kind of official is most likely to give that order, if it suited his purposes? Look at what experiments tell us, as I did.

If, on the other hand, you’re way ahead of me, and believe the extreme right-wing elements in America are poised to take it over, permanently, I think you can still get a lot from this book. The studies explain so much about these people. Yes, the research shows they are very aggressive, but why are they so hostile? Yes, experiments show they are almost totally uninfluenced by reasoning and evidence, but why are they so dogmatic? Yes, studies show the Religious Right has more than its fair share of hypocrites, from top to bottom; but why are they two-faced, and how come one face never notices the other? Yes, their leaders can give the flimsiest of excuses and even outright lies about things they’ve done wrong, but why do the rank and file believe them? What happens when authoritarian followers find the authoritarian leaders they crave and start marching together?

From your link; fascinating and frightening.

[xocet]

66. Indeed, it is - especially the "look-at-what-experiments-tell-us" information. n/t

[LiberalLovinLug]

69. Careful

I had a post alerted on when I posted a link to a page reviewing this book in response to an authoritarian dominated thread bashing Greenwald and Snowden for daring to suggest we have a few of them in here.

[rhett o rick]

85. I am a big fan. It's free on the internetz and about $10 for softbound. Well worth the read.

I think the word "authoritarian" can be replaced with "bully". We live in a strongly bully society.

[marym625]

118. Perfect. n/t

[Fumesucker]

7. Poppy is an interesting example

He's the president who while in office denied atheists can be citizens.

[merrily]

8. That's interesting all right. If by "interesting," we mean

out in left field, and not in a good way. I missed that one somehow.

The SCOTUS to Madalyn Murray (according to Poppy): We have good news and bad news. The good news is that your kid doesn't have deal with school prayer any longer. The bad new is that you cannot be a citizen of the US.

[Fumesucker]

12. I just realized why I posted the OP

I have been reading David Halberstam's "The Fifties" and it's talked about Truman and J Edgar Hoover, it was the description of J Edgar that got me thinking about what I was seeing in the media and to an extent here on DU too.

[merrily]

114. J. Edgar

From what I've gleaned, the evil worm had so much on everyone that everyone had pretty much had to kiss up to him.

Also, he was the turd behind the McCarthy hearings, a stain on our history, feeding Revoltin' Joe info he'd (Hoover) gathered during World War II.

[Doctor_J]

89. first e-book I downloaded when I got my ereader

Fascinating

[Scuba]

4. Great post Famesucker. Thanks.

[sarge43]

5. In the Air Force we used to call it

Punish the innocent; promote the guilty.

[bullwinkle428]

9. K&R. I've seen MULTIPLE examples of this in over 27+ years of working in

the corporate world.

Thanks also for reminding everyone about the blown call by the doctor and antibiotics prescription for the viral diagnosis. Nurses have given me that factoid for years, every time I've made a clinic visit as the result of cold/flu symptoms. I'm sure they're capable of reeling that off in their sleep, so the decision made by the attending doctor really makes one wonder.

[Paka]

10. K&R

Great post. Spot on!

[leftyladyfrommo]

13. That's what makes the corporate world such an awful place to work.

People put up with the most awful stuff because they need the job. It's awful that anyone be treated like so many of our employed people are.

[Fumesucker]

15. Seeing it in action in such stark terms over the last few days has been illuminating

Yes, it's the world of influence, that's the sort of people who move ahead in the climate of influence.

[leftyladyfrommo]

18. I worked in the residential real estate industry

until the big crash. That industry simply works it's employees to death and then kicks them to the curb.

No one should have to spend the majority of their life living under that kind of pressure. And most of the people at the top have a lump of black coal where their heart is supposed to be.

It's all about money and having expensive things and living an expensive lifestyle. And what an empty life that is.

[Liberal_Dog]

14. I Agree

Whenever anything happens, there is usually a rush to blame lower level people.

[deafskeptic]

34. especially the mail clerk. :P n/t

[JEB]

16. K&R

[YoungDemCA]

17. Also, kicking down and kissing up reinforces status differences

K&R for an excellent OP.

[leftyladyfrommo]

19. Dilbert hits the nail on the head once again.

"I hope you can get used to taking orders from a soulless creature of questionable intelligence?"

It's a wonder any of us come out sane.

[tularetom]

20. I couldn't tell you how many times I witnessed this in 35 years of public service

And it encourages end runs. We had one boss who constantly blamed us for his fuckups while sucking up big time to his boss. And the big boss was a decent guy so we just went around our douchy boss and then waited for him to chew us out for what he thought were our decisions. Only then would we spring it on him that we had cleared it with his superior. His demeanor would change instantly.

IMO the classic authoritarian is basically a very insecure individual. He fears authority and attempts instill that same fear in those he supervises. I'm proud of the fact that we helped push this asshole to an alcohol fueled breakdown and a (very) accelerated retirement.

[MindPilot]

28. Agreed, and I think they do not really understand that others don't share their fear.

They find that very frustrating, and manifests as anything from just being a jerk constantly to more serious manifestations like Richard Nixon, or a cop.

[Hortensis]

52. So true, and even more, WHY. Seems as if lack of perspective is a big factor in reactions.

[deutsey]

63. I also think that people who buy into that "moving up the ladder" mentality

see kissing ass as what you have to do in order to advance up the ladder. As they move up the ladder, they feel they've put in their time kissing ass, now it's their turn to have those beneath them on the ladder kiss their ass.

When those below them refuse to do that (that would be people like me), they really can't figure out what's the matter with them.

I've actually had someone at a company where I once worked tell me that I was making the wrong group of friends at the company and that I needed to go hang out more (and get in good) with the CEO and senior management if I wanted to advance.

Suffice it to say, I never advanced in the way he thought I would want to...but I had a damn good group of friends while I was there (many of whom I'm still in touch with two decades later). I have no clue where the CEO or senior managers are.

[Hortensis]

82. Absolutely. I was fascinated to learn that social scientists say acceptance of inequality

is one of 3 major differences between cons and liberals/progressives. It explains SO much!

Cons see inequality and unfairness as a natural part of a secure, stable society and feel comfortable with both kissing and paying up to authority classes and kicking and/or sighing down at their own "inferiors." The latter has always been obvious, but the former? Who'd support shifting some of their own power to an authority class and a return to days of greater inequality? Them.

Our founding fathers' seminal words, that all men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, were meant to live on through the ages but have never resonated at all with strong conservatives. For them it's an irrational recipe for chaos and injustice.

[Duppers]

110. It's institutionalized in the corporate world and in the military. nt

[mopinko]

21. no shit.

classic stuff.
will we ever learn? or should i say, will we ever evolve?

[KansDem]

22. If I recall correctly, Jack London had an example of this in "The Sea Wolf"

Now, it's been decades since I read his novel, but I remember reading about the protagonist who is swept overboard after a ship sinks and is floundering in the waters of San Francisco Bay when he's rescued by another ship. One of the deck hands treats him like he's rich and powerful until he learns he's just "another guy" after which he is treated not-so-politely.

But again, it's been decades...

[leftstreet]

23. DURec

[MindPilot]

24. What an awesome post! Classic "Shit Rolls Downhill"

And never more clearly exemplified than in the constant mantra that the poor and unemployed are somehow responsible for macro economic doldrums. And how those working folk manged to use their vast economic might to fraudulently obtain mortgages they couldn't afford and thus brought the puny financial industry to its knees.

Keen observation Fume.

[mrdmk]

51. That said above, and 'a company is only a reflection of the management!'

This pisses off most managers when the truth be told

[Snotcicles]

25. K&R

[KingCharlemagne]

26. Best non-science thread I've read thus far here. Serious, serious hat tip for

your discernment.

Along those lines, AFAIK, no one in the MSM has yet called out the Republicans for budget cuts in the public health arenas. Only place I've seen it happening is here on this page (which, bless our hearts, is to be expected and a testament to our historical memories).

[democrank]

27. Terrific post.

Thank you~

[theHandpuppet]

29. Excellent post!

Ain't it the truth!

[magical thyme]

30. K&R

It's sad to see so much of it here at DU, too.

[hifiguy]

31. Boom. The leading indicator of a truly toxic workplace

is that this kind of behavior is not only tolerated but encouraged.

[Locrian]

32. great post

Have you ever read "Chalice and the Blade" by Riane Eisler? She has different terms (dominator vs partnering).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riane_Eisler

She coined the term dominator culture to describe a system of dominance hierarchy ultimately backed up by fear or force. One of the core components of this system of authoritarian rule in both the family and the state is the subordination of women — whether in Nazi Germany, Khomeini's Iran, or in earlier cultures where chronic violence and despotic rule were the norm. She analyzes the androcracy (governance of social organization dominated by males) of Indo-European and other societies, versus what she proposes was a partnership model (as distinct from matriarchy) for the social organization of Neolithic Europe and the later Minoan civilization that flourished in prehistoric Neolithic Crete [6]

She provides cross cultural examples of domination oriented cultures and their characteristic configuration in comparison to partnership oriented cultures. The configuration of the domination system has four mutually supporting core components: Top-down control in both families and states or tribes; Rigid male dominance—and with this, the devaluation by both men and women of anything stereotypically considered “feminine,” including care and caregiving; The acceptance, even idealization, of violence as a means of imposing one’s will on others; A system of beliefs that presents relations of dominating or being dominated as inevitable and desirable. By contrast, the configuration of the partnership system consists of the following four mutually supporting core components: A more democratic and egalitarian structure in both the family and state or tribe; Equal partnership between women and men, and with this, a high valuing in women and men as well as in social and economic policy of traits and activities stereotypically considered feminine such as care and caregiving; A low degree of abuse and violence, because they are not needed to maintain rigid rankings of domination; A system of beliefs that presents relations of partnership and mutual respect as normal and desirable.[7]

[Tumbulu]

87. that is an excellent book

and we sure seem to be reeling in dominace culture.

[Enthusiast]

35. Right on, Fumesucker!

[oldandhappy]

36. exellent post

Thank you. True across the board.

[Rex]

37. Well it does seem strange we haven't seen any CEOs or COOs on TV

apologizing for their corporate hospitals mistakes...just the small fish and they are getting grilled in the media. You are dead on about authoritarians. They have a huge suck up mentality if they think someone lives at a higher social level than they do.

[whatchamacallit]

38. Ain't that the truth K&R

[valerief]

40. Bingo. I just made a post in another thread saying how I was pissed at these

fingerwaggers blaming the victims when world leaders who COULD HAVE contained this problem DIDN'T.

[KingCharlemagne]

41. Not to get too dark, but there is some delicious irony of the schadenfreude type in the

fact that the citizens of the developed world are now subject to a threat originating in Africa.

As long as Ebola was considered merely a problem afflicting impoverished west Africa, few felt the need to get too worked up about it. But let one precious Westerner come down with it and, behold, the entire known Universe must come to a screeching halt.

In truly predictable fashion, though, the power structure continues to replicate the age-old scapegoating routine of laying blame on those without the power to resist.

[bvf]

83. Very true.

. . .

From where you and I are standing
At the end of a century
Europes have sprung up everyone as even I can see
But there on the horizon is a possiblity
Some bug from out of Africa might come for you and me
Destroying everything in its path
From sea to shining sea
Like the great nations of Europe
In the sixteenth century

- Randy Newman, The Great Nations of Europe

[Spitfire of ATJ]

42. Yeah,...authoritaians show up here defending the cops too....

I guess it goes back to the time when being a loyal subject of the crown was considered to be a virtue.

These are the types that welcome fascism because they also think of society as fragile and powerful authority makes them feel more secure. Especially if that authority is targeting those who resist the rules.

[DirkGently]

43. + Good articulation of a fundamental

... liberal / conservative divide in the U.S. Conservatives fundamentally think "the system" is okay, because they believe it is working for them -- and if it's doing so unfairly, so much the better.

If something overtly, inarguably bad happens, therefore, there must be a "bad apple" to blame. Further, if it's one of "theirs," then the bad apple is an aberration; a freak occurrence wherein the rich or white or male or elected person went wildly off the reservation. If it's of "those people," however, it is proof of the inferiority of poor or non-white or non-Christian people as a whole.

And so, Ebola must be rationalized as a threat from "those people." Africans, dumb nurses. Mexican-border crossing ISIS agents with turbines on their heads.

Certainly not the Best Healthcare System in the World (tm).

Great post.

[Quayblue]

93. turbines!!!! lol! classic

[DirkGently]

117. Turbine heads 4ever!

[LostInAnomie]

44. I still think Vinson is a fucking moron.

She is a nurse. She SHOULD know how disease is spread and about incubation periods. This isn't the common cold or the flu she was exposed to, it's fucking Ebola. Common sense and simple human concern should have told her to stay off planes and away from people.

Sure, the CDC fucked up. Some dumb shit sitting at a desk 1000 miles away probably half assed their job. That still doesn't make up for the fact that she is a medical professional that knew her temperature was on an upswing and still got on a plane.

[jtuck004]

45. You should look in the mirror.

On the other hand, it's very nice of you to provide an example of the very behavior spoken about in the OP. And you didn't even use up one of the precious "sarcasm" tags.

[LostInAnomie]

47. Meh... I'm not the idiot that got on a plane after being exposed to Ebola.

Anyone with even a sliver of common sense and concern for the well-being of their fellow human beings would know that is a bad idea.

You can kick the can upstairs all you like. It doesn't change that her actions were selfish and idiotic.

[brentspeak]

53. She didn't know she was exposed to the virus

"Exposed" meaning actually infected after being in proximity (or, in the case of contact with a poison, "exposed" meaning actually poisoned rather than merely touching/being in proximity with a poison).

[LostInAnomie]

56. Nope.

exposure

Type: Term

Pronunciation: eks-pō′zhūr

Definitions:
1. A condition of displaying, revealing, exhibiting, or making accessible.
2. In dentistry, loss of hard tooth structure covering the dental pulp due to caries, dental instrumentation, or trauma.
3. Proximity or contact with a source of a disease agent in such a manner that effective transmission of the agent or harmful effects of the agent may occur.
4. The amount of a factor to which a group or individual was exposed; in contrast to the dosage, the amount that enters or interacts with the organism.

http://www.medilexicon.com/medicaldictionary.php?t=31075

She knew she had been exposed. The CDC had told her so and told her to self monitor.

[uponit7771]

78. The ones who want to blame Amber are using the word "exposed" very loosely

[LostInAnomie]

81. And her apologists act like common sense and personal responsibility...

... don't exist as long as there is an agency to blame.

[Fumesucker]

100. The CDC had told those nurses they were able to work and care for patients

The were on self monitoring, not a quarantine.

[Fumesucker]

46. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone

The CDC is *the* authority, if they fucked up let's have a little mercy on some low level grunt who may well pay for their previous incompetence with her life.

The fact that you can excuse the CDC management from having some "dumb shit" on the phone to relay critical information to people while at the same time coming down hard on some very low level person shows where you are coming from.

[LostInAnomie]

50. Very low person? She's a fucking nurse.

She's not some kind of dumb lay-person with no knowledge of disease or how it's spread. She is a medical profession with full knowledge that she had been exposed.

[Fumesucker]

55. As opposed to a CDC offical?

Who are we supposed to believe, the CDC or some nurse?

[LostInAnomie]

57. The person she talked to on the phone was probably "some nurse".

That's who staffs most medical hotlines.

[Fumesucker]

60. The CDC told us the protocols were fine

Now they are strengthening them.

So the protocols in the opinion of the CDC officials were not in fact fine.

I'm not sure the hotline screwed up so much as the protocols got changed all of a sudden when it became an issue.

The reporting on all this has been abysmal, as usual.

[Sognefjord]

74. That is so typical.

[Tweedy]

72. Perhaps it is just us worrying about the flight

The nurse did not have a fever. She had an elevated temperature, within the normal range. People have clearly panicked about it; so, it is probably a good thing to stop those under monitoring from flying. Yet, here is the thing: Mr. Duncan was sent home the first time with a 103 degree fever and nobody became infected from that first visit. Ebola gets more infectious the sicker you are.

[Hortensis]

54. Another possibl indicator: Elected to Congress as a TPer. As near as I can tell, many, many of the

people who got elected on that platform are authoritarian followers. I have read Altmeyer's stuff (fun as well as interesting and enlightening) and often see signs. Plus, virtually all are social conservatives, with that enormous demographic overlap, and -- even more of course -- who fund the TP and why would they ever put non-followers in office?

[deutsey]

58. K&R

[TBF]

61. Excellent. K&R nt

[Zorra]

62. Excellent observation. Sort of like "Good German Syndrome". nt

[fadedrose]

64. It wasn't the cleaning lady or window washers?

They'll get around to them yet...

[theHandpuppet]

68. Or maybe some of those toothless hillbilly fucks...

... some on DU are so fond of deriding. There had to be hillbillies involved in this somehow.

[The Traveler]

70. Where I come from, we call posts like this "firing for effect"

And that was a hit, target dead center.

Trav

[FairWinds]

71. All or nearly all authoritarians are also . .

sociopaths. There is an extensive literature on that personality disorder too . .

[joshcryer]

73. That it actually spread indicates a distinct LACK of authoritarianism.

It's the authoritarians who want to assign blame.

No one is to blame. It was all an accident or mistake. Period.

[Fumesucker]

75. I think you have missed my point entirely

And no, the executives, managers and administrators ignoring clear warnings to prepare for Ebola is not an accident or mistake, it is dereliction of duty.

[joshcryer]

79. Yes, they could have been authoritarian, locked down the hospital.

Forced everyone in contact to be under forced 21 day observation... mandated no travel... house arrest.

But, wow, they followed procedure that may have a few holes, some people may have made a mistake.

The media is the one assigning blame and the sheep eat it up, just to scare monger and place doubt in the agencies responsible for handling stuff like this.

[Fumesucker]

80. Authoritarian is telling your front line staff to put medical tape on their throats

Because you didn't have the correct protective gear on hand after being specifically warned of the dangers.

Authoritarian is having highly infections deadly waste piled to the ceiling because again, you failed to plan for an event you were warned was a possibility.

And most of my OP was about the M$M.

I'm losing respect for a number of posters over this issue, you are another one of them.

[joshcryer]

90. No, that's common sense.

If you, because of Republican gutting of services and funding, don't have the equipment, you make shift some equipment.

Deadly waste being piled to the cieling, likewise, is due to the funding, not to "failure to plan." Every hospital would happily have a hazard waste arm that is specifically designed to handle something like this, but because of funding, they had to hire outside contractors, and it took three days to requisition one!

I don't put much merit on "respect" from people who actually use Orwellian double-speak where a scenario that is totally trumped up is made out to be something it is not. I give credit to these low level workers, while your OP acts as if there is an issue to begin with. Too many people bashing the workers, on all levels, when this is simply something falling through some cracks. And it's all meant to bash the administration and the CDC and agencies that are supposed to protect us from these diseases.

And the only way for them to do that is to actually be authoritarian. You don't respond to this point because you know it's true. You know damn well that the authoritarian approach would be to ban all flights from west Africa, to force people into observation for 21 days, to question each and every person and make sure that no one had any contact from someone from west Africa. Oh, and to actually implement this draconian approach? Profiling. Those planes that had the nurse on them? Every single person, put them into observation for 21 days, after all, that's the only way to be 100% sure, right?

It's absurd, the OP is absurd. The doctors deserve no more blame than the nurses. The blame game is just MSM nonsense.

[Fumesucker]

94. It's common sense to put medical tape on your throat?

Medical tape is water permeable, duct tape would have been more suitable. These muthafuckers have plenty of money for their fancy offices and their gigantic salaries and bonuses and perks while nickle and dimeing their front line staff for vital supplies.

I'm seeing the blame game played right here on DU, I watched a poster go literally in a matter of moments from viciously attacking nurse Vinson for flying to defending the CDC decision to let her fly when the reporting changed.

My whole OP is about a well known personality type that's causing a lot of the chaos in our nation and you deny they even exist.

Budget cuts my pasty white ass, the USA spends more per capita than any other nation on medical care, don't tell me we don't have the money because that's bullshit, far too much of that money goes into things like yet another gold plated MRI machine or bonuses for the executives and far too little into things like preparation for a possible deadly epidemic.

[joshcryer]

96. They ordered hoods after nurses raised concerns.

You'll note my first reply acknowledges the authoritarian nature of the MSM. I merely think it is being used to condemn the agencies doing their job.

But, yes, "preparation for a possible deadly epidemic" was gutted by the Republicans, if they had the budget they requested it's very probable that the CDC would've had people on the ground a lot quicker and they might not have even had to have to get a third party.

[Fumesucker]

98. These people are supposed to be the smart ones, the ones thinking ahead, doing the planning

That's what they get (vastly over) paid for.

Why do the nurses have to tell the elites they need hoods, eh?

The performance of our so called elites in this matter has been nothing short of abysmal.

As for the CDC they told us hospitals were ready to deal with Ebola cases when it's blatantly obvious a great many of them aren't remotely prepared.

From another OP I put up tonight...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025676794

I have a perspective tying together today’s big news brouhahas. My wife is an ER nurse at a major urban hospital owned by the Hospital Corporation of America, the hospital chain once run by Rick Scott. It’s the largest for-profit medical system in the world, and is of course also notable for its ‘creative billing’ practices in the largest Medicare fraud settlement in history. Scott was booted from the CEO position following that fraud investigation, so he’s not directly responsible for current conditions in those hospitals.

But it is obvious to those who work there that the combination of lax training and toxic labor relations ‘leaders’ like him have brought to the company are emblematic of a big problem for US hospitals if a major outbreak of ebola or other infectious disease occurs. My wife’s ER has an ‘ebola cart’ with some lightweight protective gear and written instructions for putting on a PPE, but the instructions are a loose bundle of papers and the pictures don’t match the gear in the cart and has inaccuracies that put them at serious risk. It’s an object of gallows humor for the staff. That’s the totality of their training or preparedness so far. As we all now know, PPEs are not easy to put on and take off correctly. Even though nurses all have experience with standard droplet control (they see TB and HIV all the time), ebola is a special case. They have gone months and months without a nurse education director because no one wants to deal with their management and take the position. Her coworkers are clear that they will refuse to treat an ebola patient because they have woefully inadequate training in the correct procedures and lack proper gear.

And yet the head of infectious disease at this hospital went on the local news to proclaim the hospital was ready to receive ebola patients safely. They obviously didn’t bother to speak to a single nurse on the front lines. I’m not particularly panic-y about ebola, even though obviously the family members of ER personnel have a lot at stake in ebola preparedness. But I think that this situation will be the weak link in any major national response. So many of our hospitals are run by lunatics like Rick Scott who seek only the highest profit margin. They do not invest in training, they build charting mechanisms that are good for billing but not treating patients, they constantly fight with their unionized employees, they lie to the public, etc, etc. We like to imagine that competent, highly-skilled medical institutions like Emory will save us, but we have way more Dallas Presbyterians in this country than we have Emorys. You can see exactly this managerial incompetence—and toxic labor relations—woven through the statement released by the nurses at Dallas Presbyterian today. Also see the head of National Nurses United on All In With Chris Hayes for a similar perspective.

To put it bluntly: we’ve entrusted our national medical system to the managerial competence and goodwill of the Rick Scotts of the world, and that is much scarier than a podium fan.

[undergroundpanther]

105. spot on Fumesucker

Even though over confident authoritarians pretend they have it all under control,thier lies are comforts to the scared,I would hope people would stop taking shit from authoritarians and sociopaths.There are way more people without these toxic personalities,than those who are toxic. The problem is blind faith,fear,over the top conformity and the fact we gave our power to vile people. We gave it to them they abuse it,time we took it away from them.We all can live without sociopaths and authoritarians and we can keep power out of reach of them.Once we stop pretending these toxic personalities will think in an other directed or responsible way regarding power.

[joshcryer]

111. That's the problem, you call bureaucrats "elites."

The CDC was possibly wrong about the skin on the throat being OK, but recommending that they cover it with tape, so what? What are the nurses going to do while the hospital orders hoods? Not treat their patients? That's what your line of reasoning boils down to. Should the CDC have told them not to treat the patient until they were able to get hoods? If they had the resources they could've brought in a team who had the hoods, no?

Instead of blaming who is rightly at fault, Republicans and anyone who wants to gut agencies like the CDC, we blame the "higher ups" who are no more in power than anyone else. What are the higher ups going to do? Again, tell the nurses not to treat the patient when they don't have the hoods?

Also, it's unclear if the CDCs recommendations are actually at fault. The MSM loves to replay that same old "how it can go wrong" thing, but that is a worst case scenario, if the CDCs guidelines were followed exactly, it is very possible nothing would've gone wrong. We don't know because something did go wrong, and that requires both the health care professionals, and the CDC to figure out and adapt to.

Rather we play the blame game instead of the "let's not get it wrong next time," game. We play the "oh, it's airborn!" game, or the "it's way more virulent than we thought" game, causing panic, and, of course, hits on MSM websites and views on their channels.

It's basically moral panic, over a miniscule issue, and it's meant to drive the government, its agencies, and the health care workers under the bus. And btw, that blog you linked? That underscores my point quite well.

we have way more Dallas Presbyterians in this country than we have Emorys

No, people are fallible and the agencies like the CDC that are supposed to help them use proper procedures have their funding continually gutted.

[Fumesucker]

119. It wasn't the CDC that told them to cover up with tape, it was their superiors at the hospital

Evidently the CDC was quite unaware of what was going on as far as the hands on care of Mr Duncan, the evidence indicates they talked to the officials at the hospital who assured them everything was under control but they didn't actually inspect the conditions the nurses and other workers were dealing with.

You have completely mischaracterized my OP and are railing about things I never even implied, my OP was largely about one way of recognizing a toxic personality type that's all too common in our culture and particularly in our business culture.

Check out these two posts from the same DUer only a few minutes apart, in the first one nurse Vinson is getting ripped in the worst way for traveling and in the second the CDC is being strongly defended for telling Vinson she could travel. This change in attitude came about after the reporting changed and it became clear Vinson consulted with authorities.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671796

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671923


This is a textbook example of what I'm talking about and the Ebola brouhaha has proven to be a rich vein of utter hypocrisy.

[Orsino]

76. Includes all of the right-wing media screamers we know.

There are a handful of American aristocrats who bow to no one, and who embarrass themselves instantly with their entitlement when they speak on-camera.

[LawDeeDah]

77. This is very good. I think I will print it out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. Exactly. "election fraud"= Meh. "Voter fraud"? To the battlements!

Or, "blame the nurse, because it's not my senator's fault that there's no surgeon general."

[Kalidurga]

86. I have been told I have a problem with Authority

this is blatantly false. I have no problem with fictional entities. That being said, I do not like Authoritarian types. They don't stop with blaming adults for what goes wrong. They go so far as to blame children for their abuse. The more vulnerable a person is the more blame they heap upon them. The problem isn't just that this person has this attitude. They are easy enough to spot and a lot of them are avoided and many can't even hold onto a personal relationship, but that some of their attitude infects other people who would otherwise be logical and level headed. A bigger problem is they tend to be abusive and create real pain in the world. I was raised by one and it's still a problem.

[Duppers]

112. Well said!

I was also raised by one and it's still a problem. Sometimes it's difficult to calm the rage I feel, while trying to be civil.

[Rex]

88. Interesting who did

NOT rec this thread...no surprise really, the truth hurts.

[awoke_in_2003]

91. The little guy can't fight back...

which is why they get kicked. It is a sad statement.

[TorchTheWitch]

92. suitable for framing

Absolutely dead on. So many of the hideous comments blaming nurses for everything is disgusting. Even after being informed that Vinson (as well as all the rest of the workers) was only on self-monitoring and told by the CDC they could go about their daily lives including going to work and handling other patients the cry from these people is "Well, she shouldn't have listened to them (the CDC) and just did why *I* wanted her to do!" Yeah, we really need health care workers not listening to higher authority on anything and making up their own minds.

[HeiressofBickworth]

95. Another good book on authoritarian followers

is John Dean's 2006 book, Conservatives Without Conscience. It quotes some of the studies referred to in this thread. "The book analyzes the evolution of the Republican Party, and the different forms of conservatism, largely in terms of authoritarian personality.

The book makes extensive use of the research into right-wing authoritarianism of University of Manitoba Professor Bob Altemeyer." (wikipedia)

After reading the book, I became more aware of how authoritarianism influences and controls government. I hope you read it.

[Skittles]

97. TIP

you can fault authority AND hold individuals accountable - they are NOT mutually exclusive

[Fumesucker]

99. Only lower level individuals evidently Skittles

Do you want people to listen to and follow the advice of the CDC or not?

Because you can't have it both ways, you can't say listen to the scientists one time and ignore them another

[Skittles]

101. I'll hold both of them responsible

Hey, I just nursed the guy who died of ebola and my temperature is up - is it OK if I fly to make wedding plans? Who the fuck thinks that is OK, whether asking or granting permission?

[Fumesucker]

103. Her temp wasn't raised when she took the first flight, the CDC had cleared the nurses to work also

I watched a DUer go literally in moments from severely chastising Vinson for flying to defending the CDC decision to let her fly when the reporting changed.

That's the sort of reaction I'm talking about.

Check out these two posts..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671796

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5671923

[Skittles]

104. your proof is a couple of posts from a newbie?

Stop defending her actions - you can rightfully trash the hospital, the CDC and heck YES the lack of response to the ebola crisis in Africa in general - but STOP acting like this gal, a MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL, just HAD to follow through on her out of state wedding plans under those circumstances

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/16/health/us-ebola/index.html

[Fumesucker]

109. It was OK for her to care for patients though?

You know, getting all into intimate personal contact and bodily fluids and such..

I showed you on DU exactly the reaction I was talking about in the OP and I have a great many DUers on this thread who recognize it and think I'm accurately describing a phenomenon that is causing a lot of problems in our country. These type of people are huge social climbers and tend to end up in positions of influence where they are toxic to any organization they have anything to do with.

[Skittles]

113. OK done here

this is fucking pointless - keep on your soapbox - I am out

[Marr]

102. This is a very interesting obvservation.

I've got to say, the pattern is pretty striking. You can always count on authoritarians to back the police in any case of alleged police abuse as well, I've noticed, but that's not so surprising. This ebola thing is more illustrative somehow.

[NBachers]

106. Will we never be rid of these dense vicious erupting little ass-boils?

[DesertDiamond]

107. In Buddhism we call it the World of Animality. It's the third lowest world from the bottom.

The bottom is the World of Hell, then there's the World of Hunger. The World of Animality is next up from there. Shows you just how low the life condition is of people who think this way. What a miserable way to live!

[True Blue Door]

108. The news media in this country is no longer journalistic, but purely sensationalistic.

Blaming someone for problems that frighten the public is more entertaining, more dramatic than rationally seeking and assessing facts, and "that is the whole of the law" as far as these pseudo-informative organizations are concerned. Moreover, blaming defenseless ordinary people is simply easier and more relatable to the audience than adding to the din of anti-intitutional commentary.

Facts are merely hooks to sell the narrative they find most profitable, and are rarely essential to that narrative, let alone helpful to the audience. It cannot be overstated how degenerate the news media has become.

So to call those corrupt news organizations "authoritarian" would be giving them too much credit. They are not even conscious enough to be capable of such a political ideology. At this point in history, they are mere entertainers, and the "news" they sell about ebola is no different from horror TV shows and movies about epidemics - it's a product tailored to make you watch, nothing more. They have no interest in or knowledge of their own content deeper than that. It might as well be algorithm-generated content for all it resembles reality or even conscious propaganda.

What you're seeing is corruption, laziness, degeneracy. Authoritarianism would be too structured a motive to ascribe to these people. They are nihilistic, and only go after the weak because it's easier, not because they are awed by power.

[Fumesucker]

120. Authoritarian is also a personality type as well as a political quasi-ideology

I was referring more to the personality aspect of authoritarianism than the political one.

The more rigid and hierarchical a culture or organization is the better authoritarians will like it, they crave order, rules and a strict pecking order which they then enforce rigidly.

Altemeyer's free ebook about authoritarians is referenced in the thread with links, read it and you'll get a better grasp, these people can be difficult for non authoritarians to understand.

[True Blue Door]

123. Authoritarian personalities are an unhealthy variant of sadomasochism.

I know all about them - I've been able to smell them my whole life. And I enjoy fighting them. Most of them are not less than human, and yet they aspire to be because they find independent human existence terrifying with no countervailing reward.

[Alkene]

116. Authoritarianism seems to be tied into malignant narcissism,

with an absence of conscience, a psychological need for power, and a sense of importance.

Malignant narcissists, in contrast to psychopaths, are also said to be capable of developing some identification with other powerful idealized figures as part of a cohesive gang.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malignant_narcissism

I fled a boss who is a malignant narcissist, yet comports herself as recognizable in the first paragraph of the OP.

[Quayblue]

121. Bookmarked and Kicked

[woo me with science]

122. K&R