We need a more honest conversation about marijuana

[loyalsister]

It is because I support decriminalization for personal non-medical use and making it available with physician recommendation that I bring this up. I have seen articles about how it can cure disease, etc. I am not a believer in any magical cure all and it irritates me that that seems to be the strategy of some.
My position is that people should not be going to jail for simple possession and I think that it should be available to people who will benefit medically. But, the issues that are ignored are reliability of dosing and ensuring the safest delivery. The argument that it is not addictive is a poor one, because people do sometimes use it in excess and can develop a dependency that negatively affects their mood and behavior.
There are reasonable arguments to be made without claiming miracles and harmlessness. That said, I recently cast an advisory vote to endorse a measure that would decriminalize very modest (2 plants) horticulture for medicinal use in my city. I would like to see us move in that direction nationwide and hope that there will be efforts to put forth convincing arguments that do not rely on cure-all and "grandpa smoked and drank his whole life and lived to be 100" anecdotes.

The problem is that marijuana is not, in fact, “harmless.” Proponents are spinning the science — casting pot as a threat only if used improperly, much like a car — for the sake of advancing their political agenda. It’s fine for people to believe the government has no business conducting a “war on drugs,” but it’s something else entirely to trivialize or simply deny marijuana’s harmful effects.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/20/the-junk-science-behind-the-marijuana-legalization-movement/?TID+SM_FB

[NightWatcher]

1. Tell you what, let's trade

I'll give you the muscle relaxers, opiates, valium....oh and the methotrexate and plaquenil that make me sick while "treating" my diseases. The method of "treatment" is to effectively weaken my sick autoimmune system so that it stops attacking my liver, kidney, bones, heart, and lungs. Make me so sick, I cannot fight back.

So today early voting started in Florida for access to medical cannabis (I don't call it marijuana because that is the name the anti-cannabis crowd gave it to link it to the Mexicans and Black jazz musicians who also used it, and were to be feared by civilized white people). Please give me access to use it for the remainder of my shortened life from 39 on without going to jail. Win or lose, I'm going to use it because I can't hack the alternatives any longer.

And for the people who think we just want to get high for the buzz, I think I am due the buzz and yes, I'd like to be high now and again to try to forget this hand dealt to me, if only for a bit.

[loyalsister]

3. I am well aware of the damage RX drugs can do

Cannabis extract is being used to treat epilepsy. When it comes to such neurological disorders reliable dosing is required for successful treatment. I'm just saying that we should take the hazards seriously if we are going to be able to make reasonable arguments.

[Dont call me Shirley]

7. Do you have Lupus? It sucks, the pain, the exhaustion. And the meds don't work, they just make

a sick person feel sicker.

[NightWatcher]

11. Yes, both SLE and lupus nephritis.

and Dermatomyositis, mixed connective tissue disease, peripheral neuropathy, raynaud's syndrome.

But I'm feeling much better.

[Dont call me Shirley]

13. SLE, Fibromyalgia, Raynauds, Hashimotos

It's the craps. I wish I could use Mj. I use lots of herbs, greens. Don't take many meds.

I'm glad you are feeling better.

[NightWatcher]

14. we sound like we're trading baseball cards. I've that one, but not that one

[Dont call me Shirley]

15. LOL....a good sense of humor is a must with our list of maladies.

But I'd rather be trading baseball cards

! !

[Man from Pickens]

2. What causes the least harm?

The least harm is caused by NOT having cops going around arresting and shooting people, by NOT creating a black market where the only justice is street justice, and by NOT cultivating criminals by putting people in jail who are no threat to anyone.

In the name of enforcement we get tens of thousands of SWAT raids per year - the vast majority of which are drug enforcement raids.

I guess the question is, how many people are you willing to have killed in order to keep drugs - any drugs - under a regime of prohibition? For me the answer is zero, prohibition is not worth a single life. A previous generation figured that out.

[loyalsister]

5. prohibition is not worth a single life. A previous generation figured that out

Are you referring to alcohol and the zero lives it has claimed post prohibition? It wasn't until the 80s, and many lives lost, that drunks driving was taken seriously.

I am very obviously in support of decriminalization because far too many people are going to jail. The point is to not make the same mistakes as were made with alcohol where the potential damage was not acknowledged.

[Man from Pickens]

8. There are still many lives lost from drunk driving

Happens all the time even still.

However, prohibition is an escalation of violence, adding additional damage to whatever situation might exist.

In the case of pot, there's even less violence without the prohibition than alcohol - a lot less. No one dies from pot, plenty of people die from cops enforcing laws against it.

[loyalsister]

16. "No one dies from pot"

We may not have heard of situations where ingestion has killed people, but it is not absolutely impossible for use to have been a factor in death.
We will have the opportunity to know more as states are legalizing and will be able to conduct systematic research. I am reminded of Richard Nixon's argument that people "drink alcohol to have fun- not to get high." It's an example of minimizing the effects of what is actually a very dangerous drug and has only very recently been considered such.
Why not learn from earlier mistakes and consider unintended consequences and potential hazards while supporting measures to shut down the criminal enterprise and fully explore medicinal possibilities?

[sendero]

21. Anyone who has studied this issue...

... already knows the answer. Whatever trumped up and exaggerated down sides pot might have, they couldn't begin to compare with alcohol.

The fact is that the government has no business telling people what they can or cannot consume. They tried it in 20s/30s, it was disastrous. The way people who choose to smoke pot are treated by the laws is a total travesty. Imagine spending all those resources to accomplish something positive.

I'm pretty sure pot will be at least decriminalized in all but perhaps a handful of states within 10 years. It is about time.

[Man from Pickens]

22. absolutely impossible is not a judicious standard

It's not absolutely impossible to kill yourself ingesting water, either (and I'm not talking about drowning - merely drinking it). http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Hold-Your-Wee-for-a-Wii-Costs-Radio-Station-Dearly-67345657.html

But it is actually easier to kill yourself ingesting water than it is to kill yourself by ingesting pot, which is why we have documented cases of the former but no documented cases of the latter - despite a prohibition industry that has had decades to come up with one.

You can't hold a more stringent standard than "safer than water" while holding a pretense of objectivity. Objectively, pot should be treated like a vegetable because that's how "dangerous" it actually is.

[panader0]

4. Two plants can be a lot of pot. Done right, one plant is a pound of great stuff.

Enough for yourself for a year and many nice Christmas presents.

[loyalsister]

6. It does reduce some legal ambiguity

The original bill called for 6 which could be much more reasonably mistaken for being part of a major drug ring.

[Maedhros]

12. The best part of ending prohibition is that there will be NO "major drug rings"

involved in cannabis distribution.

[loyalsister]

18. Agreed

I have been attracted to the notion of broader decriminalization for that reason. I would rather see addiction medicalized so that someone addicted to opiates could get an RX rather than buying rx drugs from criminals or resorting to heroin. I think it is an interesting idea, but I suspect there are pitfalls that I am not aware of.

[Maedhros]

24. Drug addiction at one time was primarily considered a health problem,

and efforts to combat addiction included rehab and methadone clinics.

Then, during the Carter and Reagan Administrations, a shift occurred the result of which was that drug addiction was now considered a moral failing. Efforts to combat drug addiction became more and more focused on aggressive prosecution, longer jail sentences and social stigmatization: "Don't be User Friendly!"

So, addiction could certainly be medicalized - we had effective programs for this in the past, and numerous countries in Europe approach the problem this way with great success.

[Bluenorthwest]

9. Enjoy your conversation. I just voted to make cannabis legal in my State.

We are past the 'must have a serious talk' stage in much of the country.

[Logical]

27. Good luck, the polls have been weird. Up and down. What do you think? nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

35. I talked to the Oregon campaign today. They said it all depends on turn-out.

The initiative has been leading in the polls, but not by enough to feel comfortable.

[Logical]

39. Good luck!!! nt

[Bluenorthwest]

10. The author's group is a hell of a thing....

https://www.accountablescience.com/research-papers/

[nationalize the fed]

17. More honest discussions like that from Dr. Christina Sanchez

Last edited Mon Oct 20, 2014, 07:58 PM - Edit history (1)

from Complutense University, Madrid, Spain on how THC kills cancer cells

And more honest talk about how the Feds hold a patent (#6630507) on the main ingredient

Cannabinoids have been found to have antioxidant properties, unrelated to NMDA receptor antagonism. This new found property makes cannabinoids useful in the treatment and prophylaxis of wide variety of oxidation associated diseases, such as ischemic, age-related, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases. The cannabinoids are found to have particular application as neuroprotectants, for example in limiting neurological damage following ischemic insults, such as stroke and trauma, or in the treatment of neurodegenerative diseases, such as Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease and HIV dementia

While the Feds say "there is no medical use for marijuana" and busted state legal dispensaries they were assigning a part of this patent to Kannalife.com

Edit: Ignoring Dr. Sanchez and the Federal Pot patents doesn't make them go away. This would be funny if it wasn't so serious. No wonder the Holder's of the world can blatantly lie to the American people so easily.
Ignore away!

[Tikki]

19. Can there be a point where a person is no longer a 'responsible' marijuana user?

That is the question.

I am betting every doctor who prescribes any marijuana product to a patient states that
one should not drive or use heavy equipment while under the influence of the drug.

I have felt for a long time that most marijuana advocates would like marijuana removed from the list of drugs
and called health food.


Tikki

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Legalize it, regulate it, and tax it.

Consenting adults can make their own damn decisions about it. In the pantheon of human intoxicants, it is way way way over towards the "more benign" end of the spectrum.

[bemildred]

23. Damn few things on this planet are completely harmless, that is not the right question to ask. nt

[loyalsister]

25. The point here is it's not the right claim to make either

I think eliminating criminal enterprise and exploring medical uses are the strongest arguments in favor of legalization.

[Comrade Grumpy]

36. No serious advocate claims that marijuana is harmless.

It's just that its harms just aren't that harmful.

[Fumesucker]

26. "More honest"? Really?

I'd say there has never been an honest national conversation about cannabis, nothing remotely approaching honesty has ever occurred.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. More honest means that we pretend 90 years of reefer madness never happened

We ignore the fact that the vast majority of the DEA's 60 Billion dollar budget goes to fighting pot smoking... We pretend the many people in prison for smoking pot dont exist, we cover our ears and go "la la la" at the facts around the relative medically benign nature of THC and the fact that legalization in CO and WA has WORKED...

...and then we focus on a few hyperbolic health claims of cannabis advocates, in the name of "balance".

[JEB]

41. Bingo. Exactly correct.

[Warpy]

28. Tachycardia, anxiety and extreme paranoia are some of the bad side effects

but their duration is brief and self limiting. As soon as the drug wears off, the person is sadder but wiser and knows to find his highs elsewhere.

It is, however, the least harmful psychoactive substance we know of. Coca leaves might join them if you don't mind having brown teeth.

[Logical]

30. "knows to find his highs elsewhere", what the hell does that mean? nt

[liberal_at_heart]

29. If you can buy all the Tylenol and alcohol you want you should be able to buy all the marijuana you

want. Let people make up their own mind about how much marijuana they want to buy. This is a half ass attempt at decriminalization. Just decriminalize it, period.

[UglyGreed]

31. I support MJ MMJ

and probably would use it since I can not take muscle relaxants since I have a hialtal hernia after being on Celebrex for six or so months. That said MJ is not a cure all by no means.

[Throd]

32. Fuck it. I like to get high. I shouldn't need anyone's permission or a doctor's note.

[UglyGreed]

37. Exactly just be honest

I don't like it when people say MJ can replace this,that and the other thing when they have no idea what that person is going through. I smoked before I got injured and I rather be with people who are high than drunk.

[CountAllVotes]

34. I would never wish MS on anyone

Never.

It is a disease and the cause is UNKNOWN; presently deemed to be "autoimmune" whatever that means.

If you honestly believe that marijuana/cannabis does not help persons with these sort of illnesses well think again ...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080721114608.htm

>>Chris Jones, chief executive of the MS Trust, commented: "The MS Trust is delighted to be supporting this study on behalf of people with MS. The ability to halt progression in MS is what we dream of - the Holy Grail for those whose condition deteriorates year on year. This study should give us the definitive answer as to whether cannabinoids will prove to be such an agent."

Dr Laura Bell, research communications officer for the MS Society, said: "People affected by MS are keen to know whether there's any truth in the suggestion that elements of the cannabis plant can help ease the symptoms and slow down progression of the condition.

If you knew of this information would you not consider using cannabis especially when there is no cause known for this horrible illness? I've seen many turn to cannabis for relief and yes, they have indeed found relief.

Shame on you for being so uninformed and believing the B.S. propaganda.

[UTUSN]

38. It doesn't "cure disease" - it's a pain killer. n/t

[nolabear]

40. It's worth noting that medical marijuana comes in many forms and does help many conditions.

I'm in WA where t's legal anyway but medical has been for several years. I don't believe a lot of what is claimed in apocrypha but there is considerable evidence that there are strains that help with inflammation, that it's a powerful anti-nauseal, that it relaxes smooth muscles which helps with spasmodic issues, and that some strains are very powerful anti-seizure meds, and those have been bred with low THC content so don't produce a high. I;m sure there are other claims but these are just the people I know who use it for those reasons.

It's not addictive in the sense that you have physical withdrawal, but there are some olds who are susceptible to anything they can self medicate with for emotional distress, and people who just love the high and can't quit.