Is it OK that Dr. Craig Spencer, Ebola patient, lied to police about leaving his apartment

[pnwmom]

in the days before his diagnosis? Why would he do that? He had to have known that they would need to do contact-tracing, and his lying about that was causing a delay.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102132467#.

The New York City doctor infected with Ebola reportedly lied to officials at first last week when he claimed he was isolated in his Manhattan apartment.

Dr. Craig Spencer only admitted having ridden city subways, bowling in Brooklyn and eating in restaurants after authorities found proof he'd done much more than just sit inside his home, the New York Post reported Wednesday, quoting law enforcement sources.

"He told authorities he self-quarantined. Detectives then reviewed his credit card statement and MetroCard and found that he went over here, over there, up and down and all around," a source told the Post.

Spencer, 33, is in stable but serious condition at Bellevue Hospital. His fiance and two friends are in quarantine because of contact with him. None of those three have developed symptoms.

SNIP

[seabeyond]

1. seeing how people have reacted on du, regardless having the factual information, i am not surprised

right? i never much find lying .... right.

[uppityperson]

36. TABLOID with ANONYMOUS SOURCES = not believable

sorry for yelling seabeyond but I was trying to get this at the top of the replies, hopefully others will see it.

The NY Post is a tabloid, including anonymous sources makes this report even more suspect. Doing an internet search, ALL the reports of this trace back to anonymous person reports to this tabloid.

Did Pres Obama ever go golfing with that alien who likes to golf with important people? Watch the NYPost for more info!

[seabeyond]

80. So I wonder if it is O K to smear a name with tabloid and anonymous source. Thank uppity. Nt

[magical thyme]

99. I'd saythe Daily Fail is libeling the doctor

that seems to be pretty much business as usual for them...

[Dorian Gray]

107. Between this story

and the push about Duncan lying, it really feels like TPTB (The powers that be) want to make the patients guilty. Duncan, Vinson, now this doctor.

I don't believe that any of them lied, and that they are being speculated about on 60 minutes or in The Post (or all other media) is terrible.

[malokvale77]

157. Yes...

and it is despicable how they are smearing these people with the lies.

I hope every one of them and their families and friends bring law suites and win.

Have we become a nation of ignorance? It certainly looks like it.

[mercuryblues]

154. he cooperated

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102132467



NYC health dept disputes report Ebola doc lied

New York City's health department said a doctor being treated for Ebola "cooperated fully" with officials, dismissing a report that he initially lied about his movements.

The New York Post, citing anonymous law enforcement sources, reported Wednesday that Dr. Craig Spencer only admitted having ridden city subways, bowling in Brooklyn and eating in restaurants after authorities found proof he'd done much more than just sit inside his home.

[seabeyond]

156. yup. this Op is a lie. go figure. and here it stands. the least, self delete. nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. I thought the story was that

these were professionals, with a lot of medical training, who knew far better than anyone else how they should behave if they suspected they had had contact with infected people. And that we shouldn't second guess them when they decided they knew best what to do?

'Abundance of caution' seems to mean a lot of different things to a lot of people.

[seabeyond]

4. per cdc new guidelines, he was ZERO risk to all those people. so ya. i guess the doctors do

know better, than those wanting to crucify.

[leftynyc]

9. So naturally it's okay

for him to lie to the police. Because he knows better.

[seabeyond]

13. Please do not make false conclusions and attribute the to me

[leftynyc]

15. It's YOU who said he knew better,

not me. If you aren't talking about lying to the police you're simply deflecting from this story with......what?

Edited to add: I should not have put those words in your mouth. I was complaining about that very thing today. My apologies.

[seabeyond]

17. My reply was appropriate to the comment I replied to. You fabricated a

Conclusion that simply is not correct.

Fact. Per cdc new guideline ZERO possibility of infecting so as a doctor he did know better.

Fact. Post one. I pretty much never feel lying is the correct way to go, or other words that it is O k.

Fact. You made the statement I felt lying o k.

Fact. Your statement was incorrect. Please do not attribute false statements to me.

[MattBaggins]

152. It is perfectly okay to lie to police

[pnwmom]

33. But he shouldn't have lied once he knew he did have Ebola. Should he?

Shouldn't he have known that they'd have to trace his contacts? Two of them were his good friends, and he was putting them at risk by not acknowledging his contact with them.

[uppityperson]

41. LINK to credible source is needed otherwise it is just tabloid rumor that he lied.

[randys1]

52. Likely he did NOT lie and if he did, who can blame him, the hysteria from the TERRORISTS

aka rightwing about this would make anybody unsure of what to do.

But I am willing to bet he didnt lie.

[Pathwalker]

47. It's a Murdoch rag - he's paid millions to those he's lied about.

and, if sued about this story, he'll quietly pay out for it, too. Lies are how he makes his millions - ask FOX.

[seabeyond]

81. I already answered. Per tabloid and anonymous source who knows and if he did I understand with the

Uninformed hysteria. I am never alright with lying. That had nothing to do with this sub thread. Doctor did know best obviously, with facts

[Crunchy Frog]

48. Per earlier CDC guidelines, any US hospital is able to safely care for an Ebola patient.

How did that end up working out?

[seabeyond]

82. One dead and seven recovered, contained. That is how it worked out

[Crunchy Frog]

84. "Anyhospital USA" took in one Ebola patient.

That patient died, two of his caregivers contracted Ebola, and a couple hundred people had to put their lives on hold for 3 weeks, and live through the fear and anxiety that they might get it too.

Now maybe by your standards that's "okay", and proof that the CDC right. Not by my standards.

[seabeyond]

88. it was also the first case to enter u.s. and first step in the crisis. huge difference

and a bit naive to not take that into consideration

[magical thyme]

155. I thought it was the CDC that did contact tracing. That is what their team does

and as soon as Dr. Spencer developed symptoms, he isolated himself and called the CDC and MSF, as self-monitoring requires. So that they could make arrangement to hospitalize him and start tracing contacts.

And he provided all his records to the CDC so they could do that, according to the CDC officials who actually do the contact tracing.

But don't let an anonymous source to the Daily Mail get in the way of the reality.

[Man from Pickens]

3. Science!

Hero Ebola doctor can do no wrong, did you miss the memo?

[LanternWaste]

25. I imagine you may even believe your implicit allegation to be accurate and valid.

I imagine you may even believe your implicit allegation to be accurate and valid.

[Man from Pickens]

43. I would never implicitly imply anything against implictly heroic Hero Doctor!(TM)

That he appears to have lied to health authorities is NO PROBLEM. After all, he is the Hero Doctor!(TM) and they are just non-hero doctors.

It's Science, which means that any ambiguity or uncertainty that may be implicit in actual science implictily doesn't imply.

[HereSince1628]

86. you mean "Dr's Privilege" don't you?

Think something like white privilege with a medical degree as it's pillar of support

[polichick]

5. No. His behavior was arrogant and irresponsible...

The tent was ridiculous - and so is leaving it up to individual medical professionals.

[Logical]

147. No it was not. nt

[fishwax]

6. according to unnamed sources in the ny post, at least

I don't condone lying. I'm not sure what the whole story is.

[Little Star]

7. If he knew he wasn't doing anything wrong then why lie?...

Makes no sense to lie unless you are trying to hide something.

I just wonder about any other things he did that didn't show up on his credit card/Metro card. That's what happens when you lie.

Besides, nice example this sets for other people.

Still, I wish him a speedy recovery.

[MattBaggins]

153. Perhaps not in this case but if Police were asking me questions

that had nothing to do with breaking any law, I would lie if I felt like it.

[Pathwalker]

8. I hope all those who are so worried about ebola have gotten their FLU shot.

After all, it kills thousands every damn year, is very contagious - far more so than ebola - and is clearly airborne. After all, if you are so worried about public health safety, you wouldn't dream of being so reckless as to not get the shot, right?

[leftynyc]

11. What does this have to

do with the doctor lying to police? And thanks so much for your concern - yes, I did get my flu shot.

[Pathwalker]

12. Why do you believe this anonymous source? The reason I asked about flu shots

is that more than a few posters(not you) yelling Quarantine! are anti-vaccers. I consider that hypocritical, since I've actually been quarantined once, as a child, even though I wasn't ill.

[leftynyc]

14. Given this is being said

about a person who could certainly afford to sue the pants off the paper if they lied, I'm inclined to believe it. I'll never understand anti-vaccers. The closest I ever got to quarantine was when I had to have 3 clean blood tests before they would let me back in school when I had mono. I was in the 8th grade.

[Pathwalker]

21. Qurantine poses many problems for those within it, like how to get food,

toiletries, personal items for women of childbearing years, prescription meds, cleaning supplies, etc. I'm sure no one wants to touch their money, or even their cash cards. The police usually won't let people even come to the front door with these items, so living in quarantine can be quite hellish.

[yellowcanine]

28. I think people are overreacting to Ebola but I don't think the flu is a good comparison.

And I don't think it helps when Obama uses that comparison. Otherwise healthy people are actually at very low risk of dying from the flu if they get it. Yes the flu is more contagious but there is also a vaccine which is readily available. Not so with Ebola. People should get flu vaccines, not only for themselves, but also to protect the people who have compromised immune systems. Also the consequences of one Ebola patient are a far more serious burden on our medical system than many flu patients, again because we can and do protect providers with vaccines.

[Pathwalker]

30. Unfortunately, not all medical personnel get the flu shot.

I once had a Dr. tell me he was simply too tough to get the flu. After that, I went to another Dr.

[yellowcanine]

35. Yeah well a medical degree is not a vaccine against assholishness.

Unless there is a medical reason for not getting the vaccine, all providers should get it.

[Pathwalker]

45. I've met a LOT of medical personell with that synhdrome.

[HockeyMom]

57. It is all about CONTROL

of other people. Get your FLU shot, do what the CDC tells you to do or you will DIE or kill other people; babies and Grannys. Well, as a Granny myself, stop trying to USE ME for your agenda whether that is Ebola or the "horrific" flu.

[uppityperson]

61. Do you wear seat belts in cars? nt

[branford]

62. or get vaccinations? nt

[HockeyMom]

72. No

Throw Granny in a quarantine concentration camp?

[HockeyMom]

71. Yes because

they will give me a TICKET, and not because driving 30 MPR (don't drive on highways) is going to kill me.

[uppityperson]

85. And the only reason you buckle your kids in is because of a ticket?

http://www.adph.org/injuryprevention/index.asp?id=1033

At 30 mph, the impact of a crash has the same force as a head first jump from a three-story building.

[Adrahil]

67. Well.... Can't really agree....

1) Flu is MUCH easier to catch. In fact, Ebola is fairly difficult to catch.

2) Regardless of survival rates, your chances of dying from flu are higher than dieing of Ebola.

[yellowcanine]

115. Well I concede all that. Still don't think it is a good comparison.

The flu only kills certain groups of people and we know how to protect them. (Keep herd immunity high with vaccine programs).

Ebola on the other hand is capable of killing otherwise healthy people.

Comparing Ebola to the flu is not helpful because it does nothing to allay the fears people have, however irrational. Instead we should keep emphasizing over and over again the importance of understanding the actual risk. As people see that there is no outbreak, that anyone coming in with Ebola can be treated and that people are not contracting Ebola on planes, subways, bowling alleys, etc, then gradually the fears will subside.

[Ms. Toad]

64. The flu is not fatal at a rate which exceeds 50%

Its fatality rate of the flu is .0002% to .0661% (that is between 2 and 661 out of a million) Compared to more than 500,000 out of a million for Ebola. Just a tad bit of a difference.

Not to mention that the flu shot generally only makes you around 60% less likely to get the flu than no shot at all. (It varies depending on how well the vaccine makers predict which strain will be around this year.)

[riderinthestorm]

10. Anonymous sources in the NY Post. This is usually the kind of source we laugh at

Why are you presuming its true?

Let's just say it is true, he wasn't contagious til the fever started which is when he self-quarantined. SCIENCE guided his actions.

DU, and many Americans', fear aside...

[badtoworse]

18. "Why are you presuming its true?" I assume you know about libel.

Do you think the Post would risk millions in a slam dunk libel judgment by publishing a story like this if it were false?

[riderinthestorm]

19. They're relying on anonymous sources. I don't trust that nt

[badtoworse]

23. That doesn't change the fact that the Post would have to back up their story if they were sued.

As a major newspaper, I would assume the Post understands the law and has enough confidence in their source to publish.

I think that it's very likely the story is true, but you just don't want accept that because it would greatly undermine the prudence of trusting healthcare workers to self quarantine and self monitor.

[riderinthestorm]

27. The Post is not a good source on DU. Never has been so why now?

And even if its true, Dr Spencer's case demonstrates that the protocols work exactly as they should. He self-monitored and as soon as he got a fever he self quarantined.

Because as a scientist he knows that he wasn't contagious until the viral load began to build after he had developed a fever (despite the fear mongering on DU and in the media).

So honestly, it doesn't matter if its true or not since the premise is flawed - that HCWs should automatically be quarantined for 21 days after returning from Ebola stricken areas of Africa isn't sound science, its fear mongering.

[badtoworse]

34. I've always thought that dismissing a news report solely on the basis of the source is pretty lame.

[riderinthestorm]

37. I read the tabloids in the grocery store check out lane for laughs

I don't ever use them as serious sources when speaking of serious subjects.

Clearly you trust the tabloids.

I don't

[Crunchy Frog]

83. A doctor, not a scientist.

Last edited Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:13 PM - Edit history (1)

And "science" doesn't have perfect knowledge of the precise moment at which a particular Ebola patient becomes contagious.

There's a lot that's still not known for certain about this disease, and this doctor was experiencing early, prodromal symptoms for a couple of days during which it's within the realm of possibility that he could have been contagious.

Cases of Ebola have been documented where there was little or no fever, so this is not an an ironclad gauge of contagiousness.

Science is an ongoing process of discovery, not a series of absolute statements coming from authority figures. I hate the kind of scientific illiteracy that fails to understand this distinction.

IMO, if this man lied about what he was doing while experiencing prodromal Ebola symptoms, his actions have made a pretty compelling case for mandatory quarantine for HCW returning from Ebola stricken areas of Africa.

[uppityperson]

32. Find us a non-tabloid source, or one that does not trace back to anonymous sources & nypost

[morningfog]

100. You give the Post far too much credit.

Even with lies, a libel or defamation suit is very hard to even get to a jury. The Post knows that.

[yellowcanine]

22. "slam dunk libel judgment" There is no such thing, not in the U.S. anyway.

Libel is extremely difficult to prove in the U.S., particularly if the case can be made that the plaintiff is a public figure.

[badtoworse]

39. Do you think Spencer qualifies as a public figure? I don't.

He's only public in the context of the potential libel suit. I'd be surprised if that were enough.

[yellowcanine]

113. All over the news before this "report" came out. So yes, he might be.

Ultimately a jury would decide. Libel is difficult to prove in the U.S., regardless, particularly against news organizations who can say they were simply reporting the news in good faith and had no reason to believe the information was false.

[badtoworse]

119. Even so, the Post would still need to document what their good faith was based upon.

Otherwise, they would be unable to refute the charge that the story was a complete fabrication. If the story is false and the Post shows up in court empty handed, how could Spencer lose?

[yellowcanine]

121. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff, not the defendant.

And basically the plaintiff would have to show that the Post knew or should have known the claim was false. That is very difficult to prove, particularly if there were some blabby police officers spouting off, which is what probably happened. The Post can argue that one has to presume that a police officer is telling you the truth.

[badtoworse]

122. I would think that if Spencer told the truth from the start, he could prove that.

I assume there would be a discovery phase to the trial. Wouldn't the Post have to document their basis for publishing the story at that time? It seems pretty unlikely to me that a police officer would just make the story up- why would he do so?

[yellowcanine]

123. What he would have to prove is that the Post knew the story was not true.

How would he do that?

[badtoworse]

125. That woud be difficut. What would the Post have to produce during discovery?

Or do they have no obligation to produce anything?

[yellowcanine]

127. Probably not anything that could not be identified specifically.

A don't think "all emails and notes pertaining to ......" would cut it.
Unless there were a specific conversation on a specific date and time that could be cited, I think it would be fruitless.

[badtoworse]

129. Thanks - interesting discussion. The next few days should be interesting.

[LisaL]

124. He is an involuntary public figure.

[badtoworse]

126. What is the significance of that?

[LisaL]

149. Significance is to him if he decides to sue for slander.

He has to prove that whoever slandered him knew the information was false.

[Darb]

59. Probably not a good idea, but why were the police asking him anything.

Shouldn't he have been interviewed by health care officials and shouldn't they have been asking him those questions? I think the police cross examining him is not a good policy.

If there was investigating to do with regard to exposure, which was not warranted by the way, shouldn't the CDC be handling that type of thing. Or NYC health officials, or NY State Health Department?

Police interrogation seems odd to me.

On Edit: Should have been a reply to the OP.

[JTFrog]

114. Yes. That is their exact business model. n/t

[badtoworse]

16. Of course it's OK. He's a health care professional and he understands the science.

We should just trust him.

[Puzzledtraveller]

118. the science of what?

contracting a deadly disease then maybe spreading it to others? Yes, that can be proven by the scientific method.

[yellowcanine]

20. "the New York Post reported ...." Isn't that a tabloid? Maybe wait for a second source before

freaking out about this?

[JonLP24]

24. Is that the problem?

He lied to police?

If you're asking me if it is OK to lie to police the police certainly lie all-the-time. Usually to trick someone.

[closeupready]

26. I live in New York, and he wasn't under oath, was he?

If by ok, you mean, should third parties (us) have the right to make a snap judgment based upon news coverage from the New York Post?, then my answer is, 1) uh, let's wait for a credible source, and 2) it's not that big of a deal.

[uppityperson]

29. Do you have a non-tabloid source for that? Until I see a good source, consider nyp report suspect

[Fred Sanders]

75. TABLOID SMEAR, at DU, seriously maybe it is I that am on the wrong site.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. It may be that loss of common sense is one of the very early symptoms of Ebola.

At least I've seen that theory suggested, and this would seem to support it.

[Princess Turandot]

38. This all comes from a six sentence article in the *NY Post*...

from an 'unnamed' law enforcement source.

I doubt that the NYPD was directly involved in initially interviewing him as he was being evaluated and put into isolation. There was no report of him self-quarantining that I recall reading about: there were debates almost immediately about whether he should have done so. (http://www.nydailynews.com/ebola-nyc-experts-craig-spencer-self-quarantine-ethics-article-1.1985991) The information about him going bowling the evening before he developed a fever 'broke' almost as quickly as the story of his being taken to the hospital did.

It's pretty easy to morph Spencer not mentioning something (assuming that happened) in the first hours of his hospitalization for a horrific disease into 'lying'. Frankly, once they learned when the onset of the fever was, my guess is that the docs made getting him settled and started on protocols their complete priority. And by the very next day (Friday), the NYC DOHMH was giving out detailed information about his activities, including his going jogging and going to the High Line Park, activities that would not appear on his metro card records or on credit card statements. (http://omnifeed.com/article/newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/10/24/health-officials-tracing-steps-of-first-nyc-ebola-patient/)

Personally, I think that Murdoch's minions are carrying Chris Christie's water for him, given that he's being lambasted for his mandatory quarantine order.

[pnwmom]

40. This isn't about a self-quarantine. It's about him lying after the fact, when he knew he was

infected, which delayed the ability of the health authorities to do contact tracing.

And don't you think they'd be denying this story if it was false?

[uppityperson]

42. He is in serious condition in the hospital, do you really think he's reading tabloids?

If this were real, don't you think some other news media, a credible one, might have reported on it? ALL the articles trace back to that tabloid source.

[pnwmom]

44. Don't you think the authorities would be denying these stories if they were false,

since they reflect badly on the doctor?

[uppityperson]

46. Nope. Again, and again, please find a link to a credible source. Thank you

[Logical]

144. Wait, WHEN did he know he was infected? What is your proof???? nt

[pnwmom]

150. This would be after he went to Bellevue, so he was symptomatic by then.

I don't know when this was exactly in relationship to his final blood test if that's what you're asking.

[hedgehog]

49. He did self-quarantine -

once he began to show symptoms (slight fever) and therefore was a possible hazard to others.

So yeah, I think it's OK to lie to people who don't know what they are talking about.
.

[pnwmom]

50. The issue is that after he was diagnosed with Ebola

he reportedly lied about his activities before the diagnosis, which delayed the authorities in doing their contact tracing.

[uppityperson]

51. "reported" by anonymous sources to a tabloid. Still waiting on a link to prove me wrong.

[pnwmom]

53. And none of the police or health authorities are denying it. Maybe it's false but I would think

they would want to make the record clear if the story is fake. If he was telling them the truth, why would they let this story dangle out there?

[uppityperson]

54. Maybe they are too busy laughing at this "source", or maybe they are all busy elsewhere.

[hedgehog]

55. In that case, the authorities should go ahead and do contact tracing on all the people he ran into

before he went to Africa. It makes about as much sense as looking for people he ran into before he developed any symptoms . He wasn't a hazard to anyone until he developed a fever; he reported the fever at once. Even after developing a fever, he was/is a hazard to others only if they are indirect contact with his bodily fluids.

[pnwmom]

56. They think otherwise, since they de-contaminated his apartment and the bowling alley. nt

[Ms. Toad]

65. His first symptoms were two days earlier:

fatigue or grogginess. Just like the first symptoms of Nurse Vinson. Those symptoms (given recent exposure to Ebola) should have triggered a self-imposed quarantine.

[hedgehog]

76. Fatigue and grogginess? If those were sure fire symptoms of Ebola,

every passenger off a flight from Africa, Asia, Europe or South America would have to self quarantine!

Trust me - it takes about a day per time zone crossed to recover, and you're apt to be hit with sudden grogginess until you do at any time during the day. Toss in that generally you lose a night's sleep as well.

[Ms. Toad]

78. They are not sure symptoms of Ebola,

nor did I suggest that anyone returning from Africa, etc. self-quarantined because they felt fatigue or groggy.

What I did suggest was that combined with known exposure to Ebola, one ought to self-quarantine. That was the first symptom reported by both Vinson and Spencer, both of whom had been caring for Ebola patients. That symptom appeared about 3 days before the fever started in each case, and was significant enough/persistent enough that both reported as a symptom. As for Spencer, that symptom was about seven days AFTER he flew back.

Combined with known exposure (particularly exposure of the nature where any slip in doffing protective gear exposes you to fluids from the most contagious stage of Ebola), anyone in the incubation period experiencing fatigue should self-quarantine until the fatigue disappears, is confirmed to be from another cause, or worsens into a full blown Ebola infection.

[Crunchy Frog]

90. Nurse Vinson had them,

and she only flew to Ohio. Is that a big enough flight to get jetlag? I believe the Spanish HCW had similar symptoms, and she didn't fly anywhere.

[bigwillq]

58. No, not ok, imo (nt)

[Demit]

60. I wouldn't trust the 'law enforcement source' to use the right terminology.

The unnamed source is characterizing what the doctor said. I've seen people use the phrase 'self-quarantine' when they meant 'self-monitor', and as you know they mean different things.

Perhaps I would give what is essentially hearsay more credence if the source identified himself and had the courage to go on the record. Otherwise it feels more like shit-stirring to me.

We love to pass judgment on others. We love our morality plays. We love to condemn the accused for their sins.

[Ms. Toad]

63. Given how quickly all that information was known,

and where the reports citing anonymous sources first appeared, I don't believe he lied.

I do believe he acted inappropriately by not self-quarantining as soon as he felt the first symptoms (fatigue, grogginess), but since the very first reports included bowling and the UBER taxi ride, and within 12 hours the rest of it was publicly reported, I have a hard time giving much credence to a report that his initial response was to lie.

[Adrahil]

66. FEARBOLA!!!! nt

[Egnever]

68. Oh for fucks sake.

He is a Doctor. One would think by now even the most panic ridden of you would have learned by now that Ebola is not contagious till after much later in it's course. The guy turned himself in as soon as he came down with a fever long before he was any real risk to anyone.

Thomas Eric Duncan should have shown everyone how freaking ridiculous this is. He was sent away from the hospital in much worse condition than this doctor ever was and stayed at home for days and no one was infected.

I find this panic stomach turning. All it shows me is how many people are easily lead by the nose to be afraid.

This story is ridiculous.

[treestar]

69. We have yet to meet, at least in the media

a person who worked with Ebola patients who is worried about getting it themselves or spreading it to others. It seems to be all denial - couldn't happen to me kind of mentality. Maybe that is natural to human nature in that situation. Doctors and nurses have to believe they have tough immune systems.

Maybe they know it comes on gradually and could not spread at any point before they'd realize they may well have it.

[HereSince1628]

70. Setting Ebola aside, you just don't get to choose to act exceptionally to legitimate rules

and law without consequences.

I do understand there are circumstants where inviting prosecution may be a proper thing to do.

But this just seems like a classic case of 'the rules don't apply to me'.

That same attitude is what drunks are thinking when based on personal perception they think they are sober enough to drive.

The result is too many end up killing innocent people.

Medics aren't above law and regulation. Even law and regulation they disagree with.

[Darb]

73. Which law is it again, for clarity?

Which regulation?

[HereSince1628]

89. I believe these are executive orders rather than law

That by itself doesn't make the resulting regulation/rules illegitimate.

State executives do have the legal latitude to react.

Hickox can go to court and fight it. That is more responsible than going into the media threatening non-compliance

[uppityperson]

87. Did you notice the source is a tabloid with anonymous reports?

[WinkyDink]

92. Yeah, just like nobody here believed a "tabloid" about John Edwards. Are you new to journalism?

Anonymous sources are used ALL THE TIME.

See: WATERGATE.

[uppityperson]

97. A broken analog clock is right twice a day but doesn't mean it is right the other 23 hours, 58 min.

[WinkyDink]

111. How clever.

[Fred Sanders]

74. Again, for fuck's sake, this accomplished physician and humanitarian is fighting for his life...WTF?

The one remaining case of Fearbola left in America.

One.

We should be praying for his recovery, but you have to smear him some more....are you for real?

Are you more fearful he will recover.....than die?

[LisaL]

77. Authorities knew pretty quickly about his activities.

So I doubt the story is credible.
If it were true, then obviously , it's not o'key to lie to police. In fact it's illegal.

[Kalidurga]

79. More fear mongering

and more people reacting in ways that are shown not to be necessary. No one is going to get Ebola from a bowling ball that was touched by someone who was in the very early stages of having ebola.

[WinkyDink]

94. And you know this how? (Repetition and insistence are not proof.)

[Kalidurga]

98. Correct

when you keep saying over and over again that someone is a danger to other people to spread a dreaded disease it does not make it so.

[Logical]

143. So under your logic SOMEONE caught Ebola from this doctor. We will know soon enough! nt

[WinkyDink]

91. Why is there doctor-worshipping here? Why is HE so credible about when he "self-reported"? HE HAS

EBOLA. HE IS NOT IN THE CLEAR.

HE FELT FATIGUED BUT WENT BOWLING?! WTH DOES THAT, after treating Ebola patients?

[uppityperson]

93. He. Was. Not. Contagious. When. He. Went. Bowling.

What, now you want to make it a law health care workers can't go bowling? good lord

[WinkyDink]

95. Why should I believe him? HE. FELT. FATIGUED. THAT. IS. A. SYMPTOM.

Maybe not with YOU, maybe not with ME.

But HE had been treating Ebola patients, was VERY knowledgeable about what to look out for, and guess what? The good doctor's FATIGUE developed into more symptoms, until the symptoms had to be declared the actual disease.

In the immortal words of Condoleeza Rice, "Who could have predicted?"

[uppityperson]

96. Fatigue is also a symptom of flying across the ocean. Fatigue by itself is no, not a symptom and hav

you seen the short documentary of MSF that shows what they mean by "fatigue"? It isn't just "I am tired" or "god that was a long flight and the time zone change is really tiring". It is "omg I can barely move".

And no. Fatigue does not develop into other symptoms. Other symptoms developed on their own, fatigue does not "develop into more symptoms". Neither vomiting nor diarrhea, the most common symptoms do not develop from fatigue.

Seriously, wtf? Science. Use it.

[riderinthestorm]

102. + 1000 nt

[ecstatic]

103. the problem is, Dr. Spencer's credibility has taken a hit.

It sucks to have to mention this because he is very ill right now, and it seems like the media has been tearing him apart over the past day.

Nevertheless, we're depending on Spencer's account of how he was feeling when he went bowling. He couldn't get away with lying about his whereabouts, but there's no way to verify which symptoms he may have had.

None of the other American health care workers (who became symptomatic on American soil) were ever described as being in serious (critical condition). That indicates that either Bellevue can't handle an ebola patient, or maybe Spencer came in too late--after being symptomatic for a few days.

[uppityperson]

104. Anonymous tabloid rumors are being passed around. Serious and critical are different, yes others h

have been in serious condition. Please do not pass around or believe anonymous tabloid rumors without them being berified by a reputable source that does not trace its story back to that tabloid.

http://commonhealth.wbur.org/2013/04/serious-critical-condition-defined

HIPAA Updated Guidelines for Releasing Information on the Condition of Patients (provided by the American Hospital Association)

• Undetermined – Patient is awaiting physician and/or assessment.
• Good – Vital signs are stable and within normal limits. Patient is conscious and comfortable. Indicators are excellent.
• Fair – Vital signs are stable and within normal limits. Patient is conscious, but may be uncomfortable. Indicators are favorable.
• Serious – Vital signs may be unstable and not within normal limits. Patient is acutely ill. Indicators are questionable.
• Critical – Vital signs are unstable and not within normal limits. Patient may be unconscious. Indicators are unfavorable.

[ecstatic]

106. When was Amber or Nina in serious condition?

The worst condition I heard was when Nina was downgraded to fair condition due to the long trip to NIH.

[WinkyDink]

110. Excuse me, but his EXPOSURE TO EBOLA puts "fatigue" into the "symptom" category. CDC:

"Active monitoring should consist of, at a minimum, daily reporting of measured temperatures and symptoms consistent with Ebola (including severe headache, fatigue, muscle pain, weakness, diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, or unexplained hemorrhage) by the individual to the public health authority." (Bolding mine.)

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/exposure/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html

[LisaL]

117. Sure does.

[polichick]

105. True. The idea that medical workers will know...

the exact moment they become contagious is ridiculous.

[uppityperson]

128. straw man arguments are so fun. eom

[polichick]

130. Nice try, but you keep asserting that you know when he was not contagious...

But in fact the doc doesn't even know when the transition actually happened - nobody does.

[uppityperson]

132. You want a firm time, date that I KNOW he wasn't contagious?

Sept 1, 2014. There you go. According to CDC according to MSG who have a lot of experience and science associated with this, no symptoms, not contagious. After symptoms start, but indeed not at any specific moment, he became contagious.

[polichick]

133. Depends on what you consider a symptom - the doc...

obviously didn't consider fatigue a symptom, though it's on the list.

Pretending the moment one becomes contagious is very clear and exact is simply idiotic.

[uppityperson]

134. However, sayng when he was not contagious is possible and easier.

[polichick]

135. Not really.

[uppityperson]

140. Do you think he was contagious over a month ago? Seriously? How about a yr ago?

Science is good.

[polichick]

141. Silly stuff.

[LisaL]

116. Fatigue is a symptom.

He had fatigue for several days prior to getting a fever.

[tammywammy]

139. It's called jet lag.

I was "fatigued" for 3 days after flying Sydney to DFW.

[Logical]

146. And was running 3 miles. Sound tired to you? nt

[uppityperson]

142. Your co-workers greatly appreciate your calling in sick when you have a cold or the flu.

Good for you for thinking of others like that.

[Texasgal]

158. Jeeze... [phone]

This has been my biggest issue with the hair on fire crowd! Stay home of you have flu symptoms! People DIE. By the thousands! UGH!!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

138. people with jet lag? i am always fatigued after a long flight?

[morningfog]

101. Even if he did lied, which isn't clear, so what?

He wast infectious. No one was at risk. Who the fuck cares?

[Iamthetruth]

108. But he is a doctor

They would never lie, just like nurses never would.

[TheKentuckian]

109. Folks can tell the cops whatever they want just like the cops have gone to court for the right

to lie to us.

[WinkyDink]

112. Scroll down to the "Some Risk....Asymptomatic" category:

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/exposure/monitoring-and-movement-of-persons-with-exposure.html

"Some risk includes any of the following:
•In countries with widespread Ebola virus transmission: direct contact while using appropriate PPE with a person with Ebola while the person was symptomatic
•Close contact in households, healthcare facilities, or community settings with a person with Ebola while the person was symptomatic ◦Close contact is defined as being for a prolonged period of time while not wearing appropriate PPE within approximately 3 feet (1 meter) of a person with Ebola while the person was symptomatic."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This would include a doctor or nurse, as with Spencer and Hickox.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Asymptomatic (no fever or other symptoms consistent with Ebola):

•Direct active monitoring

•The public health authority, based on a specific assessment of the individual’s situation, will determine whether additional restrictions are appropriate, including:

◦Controlled movement:
exclusion from long-distance commercial conveyances (aircraft, ship, train, bus) or local public conveyances (e.g., bus, subway)

◦Exclusion from public places (e.g., shopping centers, movie theaters), and congregate gatherings

◦Exclusion from workplaces for the duration of a public health order, unless approved by the state or local health department (telework is permitted)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Anyone who continues to argue the "Civil Rights" or "Asymptomatic" points is not aware of these most recent updates to the CDC statements.

[HereSince1628]

120. I wish this would get catapulted in the media.

If only this had been widely understood a month ago.

It's the sort of information that is valuable not only to assessing our personal risk, but also to the making and understanding of public policy on Ebola.

Newspapers, remember those things?, could really help by producing it as a full page public service announcement.

[uppityperson]

145. Yet you bolded "asymptomatic" in that cdc thing & "based on a specific assesment of the individual's

Based on aspecific assesment of the individual's situation. Not "quarantine them all". And you bolded asymptomatic yet say we should not use that. Odd.

[Logical]

136. Come on, are you just messing with us now? nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. didn't he self quarantine once he ran a fever? why would he self quarantine when he was asymptomatic

given the disease does not transmit when people are asymptomatic?

[MattBaggins]

151. What right did anyone have to review

his credit cards