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woolldog

(8,791 posts)
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 07:54 PM Oct 2014

Why can't these health care workers who've been exposed to Ebola just wait 21 days?

As I was watching this Maine health care worker moaning and complaining about being quarantined for a meager 21 days, I couldn't help but wonder. I mean really, they can't just chill for 21 days and read a book and watch some TV, talk on the phone etc?

Why are they so eager to potentially put others at risk? It's a small price to pay for the general well being and health of the public. What's the big deal?

It seems like the height of arrogance to just come back to the US after being exposed to EBOLA and expect to galavant around town immediately.

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Why can't these health care workers who've been exposed to Ebola just wait 21 days? (Original Post) woolldog Oct 2014 OP
can you take a 21 day unpaid vacation with no flush toilet and no shower, from life? seabeyond Oct 2014 #1
MSF workers get full salary for the 21 days. nt B2G Oct 2014 #6
Cuomo said they would pay this for anyone whose employer didn't pay. Every governor should do this. pnwmom Oct 2014 #8
as i said. i am fiscally ok, and i still could not walk away from life for 21 days. i hope they get seabeyond Oct 2014 #10
We ARE talking of extraordinary circumstances. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #20
The math does not support your claim. notrightatall Oct 2014 #29
no. nothing extraordinary. nothing. automatic 21 day isolation is pure hysteria. seabeyond Oct 2014 #32
Exactly. 100% purestrain wild and woolly hysteria. Nothing more. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #51
woolly hysteria? woolldog Oct 2014 #53
Actually it wasn't, but seeing your name on the screen may have predisposed me to AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #58
.... woolldog Oct 2014 #133
Really? Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #60
Minimal risk cannot magically turn into a pandemic. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #62
I did not suggest that individual cases would magically turn into a pandemic. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #89
Are you advocating all medical staff and supporting roles dealing with Ebola be isolated 21 days? seabeyond Oct 2014 #80
If you read my post, it is very clear that is not what I am suggesting. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #94
so, at the end of a shift, we put our u.s. workers on a 21 day time out? paid of course. nt seabeyond Oct 2014 #99
That is not even close to what I said. In either post. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #115
why should u.s. medical worker merely get monitoring, yet the demand for oversea workers be isolated seabeyond Oct 2014 #120
Where did I demand that overseas workers be isolated? n/t Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #127
i thought that had been your position all the way thru this. you are not siding with governors seabeyond Oct 2014 #129
I want monitoring of temperature and other symptoms Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #135
i go with cdc recommendation of low grade fever. otherwise we agree. nt seabeyond Oct 2014 #137
Since you accept the CDC's recommendation, we agree completely. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #162
we HAVE to do reasonable. we just have to, to be successful. bottom line. in ALL crisis. fatigued ? seabeyond Oct 2014 #190
You said you agreed with the CDC. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #191
you and i both get what i am saying. we disagree. but, not playing fuckin game, with people i seabeyond Oct 2014 #193
Actually, no. You said that you would go with the CDC guidelines. Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #204
extraordinary in the minds of fox viewers and fear-mongers. MattBaggins Oct 2014 #160
LOL, you have not thought 10 minutes about the impact! nt Logical Oct 2014 #161
That's niceof him. The governor of GA says our state won't. Iris Oct 2014 #225
Gov 21 day Ins would solve problem Skink Oct 2014 #95
$ is not the only demand wth a persons life. some of us have obligations and responsibilities that seabeyond Oct 2014 #97
Many of these health workers are returning home from volunteering for months at a time in Africa woolldog Oct 2014 #101
are we locking up our medical staff, supportive roles here in the u.s. too? or just... those people? seabeyond Oct 2014 #102
The woman in Maine was coming back from Africa. woolldog Oct 2014 #104
Ya, so? Why just them? Why not u.s. Staff working on Ebola? Is Africa Ebola more scary than u.s. Ebo seabeyond Oct 2014 #108
There's so much wrong with your post I'm flabbergasted riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #113
Sorry about the death in your family. woolldog Oct 2014 #136
I have to agree with this, too MrMickeysMom Oct 2014 #145
I don't know. Since I've been unemployed (by choice), there are weeks I hardly TwilightGardener Oct 2014 #2
How about because they aren't sick? The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2014 #3
How about the 21 days is TO SEE IF THEY WILL SHOW SYMPTOMS. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #21
How about if they show symptoms they get help since they are not contagious before then? uppityperson Oct 2014 #23
Of course they couldn't possibly be contagious even for a few hours before... polichick Oct 2014 #35
the disease is caught when viral load is large. like, the person is DYING. seabeyond Oct 2014 #43
And yet several medical workers aren't sure how they were infected... polichick Oct 2014 #48
they KNOW they got it attening DYING ebola victims. specifically how and when may be up in the air. seabeyond Oct 2014 #57
that's not true. Brantley is certain he didn't get it at the hospital ecstatic Oct 2014 #167
I'm not disagreeing with you, but maybe you can answer something for me: why are they unable to Stardust Oct 2014 #164
Contagious, not detect. They do have an Ebola test that can detect ebola seabeyond Oct 2014 #165
I commend your tenacity. MoonchildCA Oct 2014 #166
According to MSF's protocols, which CDC has based theirs on, negligible threat.... uppityperson Oct 2014 #50
Not only that but they have some pretty unique funeral rituals that has spread the disease there too VanillaRhapsody Oct 2014 #86
Did he puke and shit all over everything and everyone he came in contact with? notadmblnd Oct 2014 #77
CDC places all those people in category 4. NO risk. Amazing isn't it? Bt seabeyond Oct 2014 #84
Oh, it's only SOME bodily fluids - only, as you say, puke and shit... polichick Oct 2014 #87
You are intentionally being obtuse notadmblnd Oct 2014 #106
And even his girlfriend does not appear to be sick. cwydro Oct 2014 #91
He didn't appear sick either - until he did. It's not "panic" - it's support... polichick Oct 2014 #92
THEY AREN'T CONTAGIOUS UNLESS THEY SHOW SYMPTOMS! The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2014 #45
Think about spending the next 21 days on house arrest Warpy Oct 2014 #4
Three weeks at home is CRUEL?! Well, let's just tear down the prisons now! WinkyDink Oct 2014 #22
Due process. Who else should be detained without being a threat and without due process? uppityperson Oct 2014 #24
Due Process has nothing to do with it treestar Oct 2014 #154
no threat, no catastrophy, only manufactured hysteria Sheepshank Oct 2014 #205
I'm sorry you're frightened. Warpy Oct 2014 #41
I'm sorry you have poor reading comprehension. I'm not frightened in the least. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #68
You're not frightened in the least? notadmblnd Oct 2014 #144
You try to put me in a box without due process, based on fear rather than facts, and we AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #61
Oh, RILLY? The federal govt and CDC has an answer for that: WinkyDink Oct 2014 #73
She's well past port of entry. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #110
Did you seriously just say "prison is better"????? I bet you've never been adigal Oct 2014 #33
Yeah, I have, to visit Warpy Oct 2014 #42
That's the craziest thing I've heard on a day when I've heard a lot of crazy things! Nt adigal Oct 2014 #49
IKR? lol. nt laundry_queen Oct 2014 #67
They can talk on the phone, skype woolldog Oct 2014 #70
People used to go through quarantines in the era before telephones, Skype, TV, pnwmom Nov 2014 #236
If YOU had a practice, or a job where you only get so many days off, napi21 Oct 2014 #5
That's what I thought Bettie Oct 2014 #30
Because that worked so well with Vinson and Spencer Ms. Toad Oct 2014 #66
The level of hysteria about this is staggering Bettie Oct 2014 #98
I agree the level od hysteria IS INSANE! napi21 Oct 2014 #105
I am amazed Bettie Oct 2014 #116
The labeling of alternate opinions as "hysteria" is what I find staggering. Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #118
It's interesting - they call it panic, hysteria, etc... polichick Oct 2014 #126
you are advocating locking up healthy people and you do not see the hysteria in that? seabeyond Oct 2014 #130
Quarantine for those who have cared for Ebola patients... polichick Oct 2014 #134
then you feel the same for the U.S. medical staff and supportive roles? nt seabeyond Oct 2014 #139
Considering what happened in Dallas, might not be a bad idea. polichick Oct 2014 #140
if you advocate for one, you MUST advocate the other. so, do we isolate after every shift? seabeyond Oct 2014 #142
MUST I? Too funny... polichick Oct 2014 #143
health has made the call. its the greedy fearmongering state officials ignoring the health official seabeyond Oct 2014 #147
The CDC in Maine has recommended the 21-day quarantine... polichick Oct 2014 #152
We don’t know a lot about this virus seabeyond Oct 2014 #156
in all your reason, are you advocating locking up the medical staff in the u.s. caring for ebola seabeyond Oct 2014 #131
I think you're mistaking frustration for panic mythology Oct 2014 #157
It's hysteria. kcr Oct 2014 #210
What if it were a more contagious disease? treestar Oct 2014 #155
It's NOT! You're inserting a straw man. napi21 Oct 2014 #215
my question was a hypothetical treestar Oct 2014 #231
It does seem arrogant, and selfish. polichick Oct 2014 #7
ah, those arrogant and selfish volunteer health workers jberryhill Oct 2014 #16
This message was self-deleted by its author polichick Oct 2014 #19
No. Fucking. Need. To. morningfog Oct 2014 #9
Because, science. demmiblue Oct 2014 #11
Did you know they have been coming back for the last 5 months with nary a word until MrDuncan? uppityperson Oct 2014 #12
....but, but, but .... etherealtruth Oct 2014 #85
What's the big deal about a prayer in school... notrightatall Oct 2014 #13
they are not independently wealthy jberryhill Oct 2014 #14
For all the people talking about returning to jobs, no health care setting TwilightGardener Oct 2014 #15
And what does that have to do with being detained at home, not being able to go out? uppityperson Oct 2014 #25
For one thing she has not been exposed to anything. These medical workers are RGinNJ Oct 2014 #17
Er...you must have missed all the previous health care workers who don't TwilightGardener Oct 2014 #18
Dr. Spencer didn't think he was exposed either. LisaL Oct 2014 #38
Personally I find it deeply troubling that so many people view a public health issue... Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #26
I have been disturbed by this conversation here and on dailykos adigal Oct 2014 #28
Agreed. laundry_queen Oct 2014 #71
Yes, MEAN. I forgot MEAN adigal Oct 2014 #76
Well said. polichick Oct 2014 #31
As someone pointed out upthread, they have been coming back for five months with no infections Fumesucker Oct 2014 #34
As I am pointing out, that's not true. LisaL Oct 2014 #36
Dr Spencer is one HCW out of many who have been returning trouble free for months riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #74
Three months ago the USA wasn't taking it seriously. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #47
the disease is spreading exponentially in West Africa ecstatic Oct 2014 #169
Science has shown that they are not infectious before showing symptoms. Yes, detain those who ARE uppityperson Oct 2014 #37
You clearly don't understand what quarantine is Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #52
And Dr Spencer was not under quarantine. He was under self monitoring. uppityperson Oct 2014 #56
The American Bar Association would disagree. The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2014 #55
It is, but only up to a point. Spider Jerusalem Oct 2014 #64
I wonder how many of them detest the anti-vaxxer crowd? ecstatic Oct 2014 #168
This nurse got a taste of publicity and loved it! Now she's challenging Maine adigal Oct 2014 #27
Seriously, how dare anyone protest being held without due process, without being a threat!!!11111 uppityperson Oct 2014 #40
Give me an ounce of pot and I would stay quarantined for a month. . B Calm Oct 2014 #39
ryan white. pure hysteria, not scientifically or factually needed. self monitoring 100% SUCCESSFUL seabeyond Oct 2014 #44
Exactly. I am disheartened at all this unreasoning fear The Velveteen Ocelot Oct 2014 #59
Had an Ebola scare here in my city. Hospital cleared out and sent to other hospital. seabeyond Oct 2014 #83
+ 1000 nt riderinthestorm Oct 2014 #79
Can you go that long without a paycheck? SteveG Oct 2014 #45
I mean, woolldog Oct 2014 #63
A lot of states won't act like NY SteveG Oct 2014 #88
Wow, I thought that was sarcasm at first. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #54
Maybe she just has no patience with grandstanding politicians? Brigid Oct 2014 #65
Or ... you stay inside until its all over. JoePhilly Oct 2014 #69
How about 2 negative MFM008 Oct 2014 #72
I don't know; I don't know her. WinkyDink Oct 2014 #75
Yep, those two negative tests would be slightly important too. Brigid Oct 2014 #78
If she had a positive blood test she would be in hospital being treated. Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #124
Lets shutdown all the hospitals treating Ebola patients for 21 days. Downwinder Oct 2014 #81
Some people value themselves more than public health. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #82
I think what you mean is that it isn't an inconvenience to you. Kalidurga Oct 2014 #93
No, it isn't an inconvenience to anyone. LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #96
No it isn't about being reasonably suspicious Kalidurga Oct 2014 #103
Those tests only prove... LostInAnomie Oct 2014 #114
1 word, Science. onecaliberal Oct 2014 #90
She would be paid. 840high Oct 2014 #100
WHAT? You actually thnk the scardy-cats are going to believe in science? napi21 Oct 2014 #109
That's what struck me Expat in Korea Oct 2014 #173
I know it's not a popular position here, but I agree with you. Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #107
U.s. Medical team dealing with Ebola. Quarantine with pay 21 days. Your call, lock them up in hospit seabeyond Oct 2014 #112
It's not my call, and that's not a policy that anyone is contemplating. n/t Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #117
why? why is it not contemplated? that merely means we are ignorant hypocrites. if it is so dire seabeyond Oct 2014 #121
well, make your case to the policy makers, not to me. n/t Crunchy Frog Oct 2014 #125
you argue medical staff from abroad should be locked up and no opinion about u.s. worker. seabeyond Oct 2014 #128
Why don't all the people bitching and moaning about healthcare workers volunteering their vacations magical thyme Oct 2014 #111
Wow! That's the first 0-7 jury I've ever seen! Suich Oct 2014 #163
hmmmm....it's still here, so I guess I survived... magical thyme Oct 2014 #187
Youngsters are always impatient Chuuku Davis Oct 2014 #119
"Youngster?" Brigid Oct 2014 #122
With the maturity, unfortunately, of a teenager. TM99 Oct 2014 #227
Something my dad always used to say: Brigid Oct 2014 #233
FEARBOLA!! nt Adrahil Oct 2014 #123
I am sooo stealing that! Brigid Oct 2014 #195
Spreads on the internet ... symptoms include ... JoePhilly Oct 2014 #206
Because they're saints customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #132
Unless somebody is symptomatic, they are not contagious. And just because the Daily Mail claims, magical thyme Oct 2014 #138
Yeah, yeah, medical 'facts' customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #146
that's "the public's" problem magical thyme Oct 2014 #149
It's our problem, too customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #151
The President should panic more!! JoePhilly Oct 2014 #207
You believe God gave Dr Spencer ebola for tabloid rumored lying? uppityperson Oct 2014 #148
Didn't the use of the term customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #150
They are highly trained, highly motivated, high principled professionals magical thyme Oct 2014 #153
I haven't the slightest doubt customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #158
Even if science proves you wrong, "you just gotta do the right thing"? uppityperson Oct 2014 #172
Yeah, that's what I said customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #174
Quarantines cannot be legally based on psychology magical thyme Oct 2014 #186
We're about to see what happens customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #216
the fears of the many, irrational though they may be, outweigh the rights of the one? uppityperson Oct 2014 #221
they have yet to obtain their court order magical thyme Oct 2014 #229
It seems as though I was wrong customerserviceguy Nov 2014 #234
yup. the court order came today and she's back to what she was already doing magical thyme Nov 2014 #235
Continue what she was doing, no need to isolate her or restrict her movements. uppityperson Nov 2014 #237
That was the reasoning behind burning witches & casting out demons. Demit Oct 2014 #189
Irrational comparison customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #217
In both cases you are placating ignorance. Demit Oct 2014 #224
Accepting, rather that denying its existence customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #228
Are you saying don't do what is needed to stop the spread, instead what is needed to stop the fear? uppityperson Oct 2014 #211
What I'm saying is customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #218
" A couple weeks of extra time spent inside one's home is not a terrible price to pay for resolution KMOD Oct 2014 #219
Hold someone captive to alleviate the unfounded fears of others? Fail big time. Educate people uppityperson Oct 2014 #220
We'll see what the Maine court does customerserviceguy Oct 2014 #222
WHO IS GOING TO PAY THEIR BILLS? They have already VOLENTEER their time and skills for what diabeticman Oct 2014 #141
No hospital in their right mind would allow a nurse or doctor boston bean Oct 2014 #175
Aren't you the one who vociferously supported quarantining AFRICA? Warren Stupidity Oct 2014 #178
Africa, no. boston bean Oct 2014 #181
ya you did. Some fool demanded exactly that and you supported it. Warren Stupidity Oct 2014 #197
I did? boston bean Oct 2014 #201
NO, it is not! and some of these health care workers have gone months ago and come back and diabeticman Oct 2014 #182
They don't go directly back to work until the 21 days are up. boston bean Oct 2014 #183
I agree KMOD Oct 2014 #184
When the storm hit the Phillipines a few years back MattBaggins Oct 2014 #159
Something to be considered BellaKos Oct 2014 #170
Self monitor vs quarantine/isolate/contain uppityperson Oct 2014 #171
Snark? BellaKos Oct 2014 #209
Excellent! Having had a studio/shop at one time I thought of the snappyturtle Oct 2014 #185
In all respect, we quarantined astronauts when they returned from the moon liberal N proud Oct 2014 #176
...who knew that was part of the job requirements. brooklynite Oct 2014 #202
I remember that. Brigid Oct 2014 #230
How else should we punish people who risk their lives to stop this disease? Warren Stupidity Oct 2014 #177
gee, why would anyone object to going to prison for 3 weeks for no good reason? unblock Oct 2014 #179
Your paranoid foolishness is embarrassing. 99Forever Oct 2014 #180
+1 Sheepshank Oct 2014 #208
It is science! longship Oct 2014 #188
Please define exposed. dilby Oct 2014 #192
Because there is no compelling reason to do that? redgreenandblue Oct 2014 #194
The price does indeed, seem much smaller when we ask others to pay it. LanternWaste Oct 2014 #196
I can't imagine living in such dread and fear all the time. Warren Stupidity Oct 2014 #198
A tent with no running water for 21 days gollygee Oct 2014 #199
Get a flu shot, everyone gollygee Oct 2014 #200
Done. woolldog Oct 2014 #212
Yay gollygee Oct 2014 #213
The reason for the quarantine is to please upaloopa Oct 2014 #203
LOL. La Lioness Priyanka Oct 2014 #214
Yes! They should sit down an shut up! KMOD Oct 2014 #223
Yes, if anything characterizes a health care worker who risks his or her own life for ebola patients merrily Oct 2014 #226
Which health care workers? Only those returning from Africa? Or all the health care workers who jwirr Oct 2014 #232
The flu is easier to catch and kills 20,000 in US per year Hamlette Nov 2014 #238
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
1. can you take a 21 day unpaid vacation with no flush toilet and no shower, from life?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 07:57 PM
Oct 2014

Last edited Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:17 PM - Edit history (1)

i cant. and i can fiscally afford it. but, i have obligations and responsibilities that would not allow me to take 21 days by myself.

and

there is no scientific, medical, logical reason

pnwmom

(108,995 posts)
8. Cuomo said they would pay this for anyone whose employer didn't pay. Every governor should do this.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:01 PM
Oct 2014
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
10. as i said. i am fiscally ok, and i still could not walk away from life for 21 days. i hope they get
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:02 PM
Oct 2014

sued. hysteria. plain and simple. not a single person willing to do this to the workers in this country. as if, ebola is different there from here.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
32. no. nothing extraordinary. nothing. automatic 21 day isolation is pure hysteria.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:25 PM
Oct 2014

self monitoring has been 100% EFFECTIVE adn successful. a 100% rate of success. it does not get better than that.

this. is hysteria, and lack of education, awareness, knowledge.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
51. Exactly. 100% purestrain wild and woolly hysteria. Nothing more.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:39 PM
Oct 2014

Americans scare so DAMN easy these days.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
58. Actually it wasn't, but seeing your name on the screen may have predisposed me to
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:43 PM
Oct 2014

selecting that word. My bad.

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
60. Really?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:45 PM
Oct 2014

21 days has not yet expired for either nurse Vinson or Dr. Spencer. I think it is unlikely that they will have infected anyone, but it premature to declare that it has been 100% effective and 100% successful.

In addition, even if it is successful for the 3 individuals so far, that does not mean it will always be successful. It wasn't in Nigeria - absent enforcement which involved tracking down people who were not cooperative with self-monitoring and forcing compliance.

No peer reviewed studies speak in the absolutes you (and many others) have used on DU. They speak in terms of minimal risk - not NO risk.

I think some form of enforced monitoring for anyone known to have contact with someone with Ebola (even with protective gear), which includes daily reporting, spot verifying symptoms associated with the early stages of Ebola, and mandatory quarantine of anyone displaying ANY symptoms (including vague malaise, fatigue, grogginess - the early symptoms experienced by Vinson and Spencer approximately 3 days prior to spiking a fever) until (1) the symptoms vanish (2) the symptoms are positively connected with something else, or (3) the condition worsens to Ebola.

That is not hysteria, a lack of education, awareness, or knowlege - it is caution which is consistent with the way doctors and scientists view the risks (minimal but non-zero) and with protecting the public against a condition which has a greater than 50% fatality rate.

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
89. I did not suggest that individual cases would magically turn into a pandemic.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:21 PM
Oct 2014

I am concerned about the costs of even a single case (and with the costs associated with monitoring individuals that single individual has come in contact with while contagious), when those costs could be minimized or prevented with reasonable monitoring.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
80. Are you advocating all medical staff and supporting roles dealing with Ebola be isolated 21 days?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:08 PM
Oct 2014

Do they get isolated after a shift and we bring in the next team or do we lock them up in hospital to treat patient until virus free or dead and then they start 21 days?

If not, pure hysteria

Or something worse

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
94. If you read my post, it is very clear that is not what I am suggesting.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:38 PM
Oct 2014

As to those working with someone with Ebola - the number should be limited to as few individuals as possible - and during the shifts when they are working with an Ebola patient they should not be assigned to work with any other patients, and there should be sterilizing facilities that they leave through at the end of each shift to make sure they do not carry the virus out of the hospital on their skin or clothing.

After their last contact with the patient with Ebola, they should begin the 21 day supervised monitoring period. At the first sign of any symptoms (including fatigue) they should self-quarantine - which should be externally enforced if they are not cooperative. If they fail to self-monitor (by not reporting daily temp & symptoms - or by not being able to be located by people doing spot checks. That is now Nigeria went from being a country with Ebola, to being declared Ebola free.

Rather than addressing the serious concerns and reasonable suggestions which balance public health risks against unreasonable restrictions - restrictions imposed in a country which has successfully transitioned from having Ebola to one which no longer does, you (and many others) are dismissing the reality that scientists and doctors do not make the absolute assertions you are making about there being zero risk during the periods when 2 of the 3 diagnosed health care workers first started experiencing symptoms later confirmed to be the beginning of Ebola.

There is a risk, and in addressing it we need to respect the reality that Ebola has a greater than 50% fatality rate, and is not like any other disease we have previously encountered.

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
115. That is not even close to what I said. In either post.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:15 PM
Oct 2014

Try reading again.

After their last contact with the patient with Ebola, they should begin the 21 day supervised monitoring period. . . . during the shifts when they are working with an Ebola patient they should not be assigned to work with any other patients, and there should be sterilizing facilities that they leave through at the end of each shift to make sure they do not carry the virus out of the hospital on their skin or clothing.


From the previous post:

I think some form of enforced monitoring for anyone known to have contact with someone with Ebola (even with protective gear), which includes daily reporting, spot verifying symptoms associated with the early stages of Ebola, and mandatory quarantine of anyone displaying ANY symptoms (including vague malaise, fatigue, grogginess - the early symptoms experienced by Vinson and Spencer approximately 3 days prior to spiking a fever) until (1) the symptoms vanish (2) the symptoms are positively connected with something else, or (3) the condition worsens to Ebola.


In case the reasoning is not clear - a health care worker cannot safely (or at least safely and efficiently) move back and forth between someone with Ebola and other patients during the same shift because of the risk of errors in repeatedly going through the decontamination process. Protective gear must be removed, under the supervision of someone else, clothing should be changed and skin cleaned - just in case there was a breach, then the health care worker goes to another room, then back to the patient with Ebola, dons the protective gear, and so on. Expecting a health care worker to be able to go through that process repeatedly in a shift, without making a mistake, is not a realistic safety expectation.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
120. why should u.s. medical worker merely get monitoring, yet the demand for oversea workers be isolated
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:25 PM
Oct 2014

where is the logic in that?

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
129. i thought that had been your position all the way thru this. you are not siding with governors
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:40 PM
Oct 2014

advocating isolation over monitoring? if you are not, then i am right there with you, all the way

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
135. I want monitoring of temperature and other symptoms
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:48 PM
Oct 2014

(reported, with in person spot checks) and quarantine (enforced, if necessary) at the first sign of symptoms (including symptoms as vague as fatigue - which both Vinson and Spencer experienced three days before they spiked a fever).

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
162. Since you accept the CDC's recommendation, we agree completely.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 12:29 AM
Oct 2014

Per the CDC:

Recommended actions for symptomatic people with fever or other Ebola symptoms*

High, some, and low risk categories

These people MUST have a medical examination to make sure they don’t have Ebola. They will remain isolated in a hospital until doctors and public health officials are certain that Ebola is not a concern.

*Symptoms of Ebola: Fever, severe headache, fatigue, muscle pain, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach pain, unexplained bruising or bleeding.


http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/fs1027-monitoring-symptoms-controlling-movement.html

It was my assessment that both Vinson and Spencer should have self-quarantined when they experienced fatigue 3 days in advance of running a fever. As of 3 days ago, the CDC has adopted what I've been saying for a couple of weeks.

Amazing how many people have been accusing me of fear mongering, considering how much of what I have been saying has since become the official policy of the CDC.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
190. we HAVE to do reasonable. we just have to, to be successful. bottom line. in ALL crisis. fatigued ?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 10:37 AM
Oct 2014

we are talking about people who live an adult lifetime of fatigued. as most of all us adults here in the u.s.

when are you NOT fuckin fatigued. that would scare me more. if i was actually NOT fatigued.

you wnat to reduce it all the way to fatigued.

no.

low grade fever, 100.4 is good enough. how do i know. cause it has been 100% successful to this point.

and it is a solid number.

ya wnat the monitorer ask fatigue? cool. just more info to the whole. but you can easily get that info as reference to the point of low grade.

in the hospital you go. REASON

ALL crisis also needs reason.

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
191. You said you agreed with the CDC.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 10:48 AM
Oct 2014

Read the CDC excerpt in my last post.

The CDC has designated 4 categories, the lowest of which is "no risk."

Unless you are in the "no risk" category, any Ebola symptom, including but not limited to fatigue (read the list I cut and pasted from the CDC's new guidelines) requires isolation until it is proven NOT to be Ebola.

Read the guidelines you say you agree with.

(Not to mention that 13% of the people with Ebola would never have to be isolated by your standard of running a fever.)

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
193. you and i both get what i am saying. we disagree. but, not playing fuckin game, with people i
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 10:55 AM
Oct 2014

know and respect. i have put out my position and why. i think it is the answer. i think we trust in reason.

got it?

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
204. Actually, no. You said that you would go with the CDC guidelines.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:50 AM
Oct 2014

I have never said I trusted the CDC guidelines, or those of Dallas Presbyterian, etc., or any other medical institution. They have been wrong too many times. I have pretty good medical intuition, and am usually proven correct. Ebola, so far, is no exception. The CDC has lagged what I have said ought to be done, but it has eventually adopted it. Both as to protective gear and now the criteria for when you isolate and begin treating someone as if they have Ebola until proven differently. I'm glad they now agree with me - but it has been (and will continue to be) my position regardless of what the CDC advocates.

I get it that most people don't work that way. They don't have the personal experience I have of self-diagnosing several personal or family conditions, being told by the doctor I could not possibly be correct, and later on having the conditions confirmed by medical tests - or of refusing medical treatment because I trusted my own reasoning more than the physicians who were treating me (and, again, being proven right to have done so by objective medical testing). So I understand treating medical authority as gods - people do that far more than is healthy, but that is another conversation. But when someone who has been telling me that I don't have enough knowledge/experience/education/etc. to make the call - that the authorities know best - does a 180 and no longer trusts the authority they were using against me, merely because the authorities have adopted what I've been saying all along, it bugs me.

Iris

(15,666 posts)
225. That's niceof him. The governor of GA says our state won't.
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 05:20 AM
Oct 2014

That's too much power for a government to weild over anindividual citizen, especially considering the science doesn't back it up.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
97. $ is not the only demand wth a persons life. some of us have obligations and responsibilities that
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:44 PM
Oct 2014

do not allow 21 days out. for no reason. but fear, hysteria, lack of education.

that being said. totally mindboggling all those willing to throw away govt money to lock someone up out of fear, yet we cannot get healthcare for the truly sick, cause we are so fuckin stingy and greedy.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
101. Many of these health workers are returning home from volunteering for months at a time in Africa
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:57 PM
Oct 2014

so your argument about "having obligations and responsibilites that do not allow 21 days" off, fails, imo

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
102. are we locking up our medical staff, supportive roles here in the u.s. too? or just... those people?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:00 PM
Oct 2014
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
108. Ya, so? Why just them? Why not u.s. Staff working on Ebola? Is Africa Ebola more scary than u.s. Ebo
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:06 PM
Oct 2014

Doesn't it make us at best... Fearful hypocrites to only lick up medical staff dealing with that Ebola and not medical staff dealing with our Ebola?

If everyone is so damn afraid of Ebola to the extreme of locking people up, I demand you also demand us medical staff be locked up too

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
113. There's so much wrong with your post I'm flabbergasted
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:12 PM
Oct 2014

I've actually been away for a long while with a planned date of return. That was because of child care issues, medical RX that needed a doctor visit, drivers license renewal, bills, the end of a family commitment to stay at my house, planned remodeling at the house, a death in the family with a funeral to plan etc.

Just because someone has been away a while doesn't mean they don't have pressing issues upon their return that they can just put off arbitrarily.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
145. I have to agree with this, too
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:11 PM
Oct 2014

There are other ways to monitor this safely. What we have here is a lack of education where it counts.

Story of Americans and our general inability to keep up with science… in this case, health science.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
2. I don't know. Since I've been unemployed (by choice), there are weeks I hardly
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 07:58 PM
Oct 2014

go anywhere, unless we need groceries or other such errands. I putter around at home, and I'm OK with that.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,856 posts)
3. How about because they aren't sick?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 07:58 PM
Oct 2014

How about because they have jobs and families? Three weeks is a long time to be confined somewhere, unable to work or do anything else, if you aren't sick.

How about because they have the right not to be imprisoned unless there's a good reason, and just having been exposed isn't a good reason. For the umpteenth time, Ebola isn't communicable until a person shows symptoms. If a person is not showing symptoms they can't pass it on to anyone else - and even then, they'd have to puke or shit on them.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
35. Of course they couldn't possibly be contagious even for a few hours before...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:29 PM
Oct 2014

the very moment they decide that they have symptoms?

The NY doc was all around town on the days he felt run down, but wasn't contagious at all until the moment he decided to call in a fever?

How neat and tidy it all is!

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
43. the disease is caught when viral load is large. like, the person is DYING.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:35 PM
Oct 2014

get the facts, as opposed to uninformed snark

polichick

(37,152 posts)
48. And yet several medical workers aren't sure how they were infected...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:38 PM
Oct 2014

It really isn't that neat and tidy - no "snark" intended.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
57. they KNOW they got it attening DYING ebola victims. specifically how and when may be up in the air.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:42 PM
Oct 2014

but i bet they can clearly define the circumstance.

what a silly post.

Stardust

(3,894 posts)
164. I'm not disagreeing with you, but maybe you can answer something for me: why are they unable to
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 01:05 AM
Oct 2014

detect the virus unless the viral load is high? Seems to this layman's perspective that their instruments should be able to detect the presence of a few viruses, not only when the numbers reach into the millions.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
165. Contagious, not detect. They do have an Ebola test that can detect ebola
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 01:12 AM
Oct 2014

Before at contagious stage.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
50. According to MSF's protocols, which CDC has based theirs on, negligible threat....
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:39 PM
Oct 2014

What fever did he have? I am curious to know what your understanding of that was. Thank you.

http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/article/q-msf%E2%80%99s-ebola-response-and-protocols

Ebola is a very dangerous disease, but it is also very hard to catch. In West Africa, the numbers are frighteningly high; this is the largest Ebola outbreak ever. But much of the spread is attributable to where it struck, in a cluster of countries that have extremely limited health care services.

The nature of the virus is such that it cannot be transmitted from one person to another until someone is displaying symptoms. Even after a patient begins showing symptoms, he or she is not very contagious. They become more infectious as the symptoms worsen, particularly after they develop gastrointestinal symptoms such as diarrhea and vomiting, and then, later, if they start bleeding. Even then, infection can only result from direct contact with bodily fluids such as vomit, blood, and feces.

(clip)

How contagious was he when he was moving around the city?

Given when his symptoms began, and the extent of his fever when he first reported it—after which he was entirely isolated in his apartment—he would have been an extremely low risk for contagion. This is not an MSF assessment. This is based on all available medical and scientific knowledge about Ebola and how it spreads. Numerous public health and government officials have said as much and have lauded Dr. Spencer for quickly reporting the onset of his fever and for his conduct once the symptoms began.

Why would he move around the city during the 21-day incubation period?

Like all returned staff members, our colleague was fully informed about and aware of the nature of the virus and when it is and is not transmissible. He knew to monitor himself rigorously, which he did, and he reported it immediately when he first felt feverish. Before then, when he was asymptomatic, he was at most a negligible threat to others, not unlike the innumerable medical professionals who treat patients with highly infectious diseases—some far more infectious than Ebola—at medical facilities throughout New York City and the United States.

Was Dr. Spencer’s case an example of the protocols working or not?

From our perspective as an emergency medical organization, yes, it was. This was an example of the protocols working wherein a health professional who immediately reported a change in his condition and has been fully and transparently cooperating with all agencies involved in his care, as recognized by the New York City Department of Health.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
77. Did he puke and shit all over everything and everyone he came in contact with?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:07 PM
Oct 2014

Then he wasn't contagious. And no, the sweat from his fingers would not have spread the disease.

So yes, it is indeed all neat and tidy.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
87. Oh, it's only SOME bodily fluids - only, as you say, puke and shit...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:18 PM
Oct 2014

Blood, saliva, sweat, semen, urine - all cool!

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
106. You are intentionally being obtuse
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:05 PM
Oct 2014

Did he bleed on you or anyone? Did he spit on you or anyone? Did he go on a screwing rampage and leave his sperm all over public surfaces or you? Did he piss uncontrollably on the subway? Did you sit on a urinal after him. You're really grasping at straws suggesting his sweat (who sweats in October?) is contagious.

If you and your bunch are that damn afraid. Lock yourself inside and do not come out!

polichick

(37,152 posts)
92. He didn't appear sick either - until he did. It's not "panic" - it's support...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:34 PM
Oct 2014

for public health protections.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,856 posts)
45. THEY AREN'T CONTAGIOUS UNLESS THEY SHOW SYMPTOMS!
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:37 PM
Oct 2014

So you don't lock up an asymptomatic person for 21 days to wait for them to maybe show symptoms which they probably never will because, you know, science. Ebola is not very contagious; you pretty much have to be puked or shat on by a very sick person who has it. If you have never been puked or shat on by a very sick person you are not going to get Ebola. Health care workers have been coming back from West Africa for months now, self-monitoring, and there is no epidemic. Ebola has killed fewer Americans than O.J. Simpson. All this pants-wetting, OMG it's EBOLA!!!11!! is just ridiculous.

Warpy

(111,342 posts)
4. Think about spending the next 21 days on house arrest
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 07:59 PM
Oct 2014

You can't see anyone, talk to anyone in person, go out and buy a loaf of bread when you run out, have any social interaction at all.

Prison is better.

There is no medical reason to have healthy people confined to their homes. NONE.

I'm sorry you are scared but that's your problem. People who show no signs of the illness are not contagious in any way.

Confinement for 21 days is cruel, stupid, and completely illegal.

If you think it's such a breeze, try it. Starting now.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
154. Due Process has nothing to do with it
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:49 PM
Oct 2014
http://academic.udayton.edu/health/syllabi/bioterrorism/4phealthlaw/PHLaw03.htm#N_6_


Emergency Authorities for Catastrophic Terrorism Situations

Barry Kellman, Biological terrorism: Legal Measures for Preventing Catastrope, 24 Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy 417-484, 425-446 (Spring 2001)(191 Footnotes Omitted)

Identification of an imminent threat of biological terrorism, through intelligence sources or other means, should prompt the most rigorous law enforcement efforts to uncover its source and prevent the harm before it materializes. Moreover, in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist event, an equivalent standard of rigor should apply to efforts to apprehend the culprits. In these biological terrorism situations, an important question arises as to whether "emergency authorities" might be necessary or advantageous for law enforcement personnel or for public health officials. Are there legal inhibitions, restrictions, or prohibitions are applicable in normal circumstances that should be abandoned, mitigated, or suspended in the circumstances of biological terrorism? If so, what can Congress do to expand those authorities, in view of the fact that Congress cannot legalize unconstitutional activity?

Law enforcement officials at all levels will have to conduct investigations and implement measures that exceed the standards applicable to calmer situations, measures including quarantines, cordoning off of areas, vehicle searches, compulsory medical measures, and even sweep searches through areas believed to contain terrorists. These responsibilities can be undertaken most effectively and judiciously if all levels and branches of government prepare in advance for the unique, low-probability, high-magnitude threats that terrorism poses to national security. Advance preparation is also necessary to ensure that civil liberties are not undermined in the name of reacting to terrorism. Under unprecedented conditions of mass casualties, panic may overwhelm constitutional protections. When officials are unprepared to address the threat of a biological terrorist event, the risks of an overwrought response are significant.

1. Defining the Problem

The problem here is not about what measures can be taken in connection with a person suspected of being a terrorist. If there is reason to suspect an individual is a terrorist, then there is no serious legal problem with conducting an investigation. If a warrant can be obtained to conduct that investigation, it should be; if exigent circumstances prevent obtaining a warrant, the requirement is conditionally excused.(1) Depending on his citizenship, the suspected terrorist may have privacy rights, and no court will condone patently unnecessary or abusive law enforcement activity. But the issues pertaining to "emergency authorities" are not, strictly speaking, relevant to what can be done in regard to a suspected terrorist.

The issues pertaining to "emergency authorities" have to do with the privacy rights of everyone who is innocent but caught in the net of the investigation for the actual terrorist. The problem is that in investigating or in responding to terrorist activity, law enforcement officials may direct intrusive measures against a much broader group than the actual terrorist. It is the inability to distinguish the terrorist from all the other people in the area, or to distinguish the terrorist's locale from similar locales, that creates the potential for invasions of civil liberties. The following scenarios illustrate the point:

• Intelligence strongly suggests the presence of biological weapons in a six-unit apartment building, and sensor equipment has detected emissions from that building. The difficulty is that there is no evidence as to the specific location of the biological weapons. To prevent the attack, the police will have to search each apartment. If persons in any of the five unrelated apartments deny access, the police will use force, thereby violating those persons' expectations of privacy. Yet until the police enter the apartments, they have no reason to know which apartment houses the terrorist.

• Intelligence strongly suggests that a terrorist is of a certain ethnicity, but further identifying information is unavailable. To pursue the investigation, the police will have to stop everyone who matches that characteristic. Again, the problem is not with investigating the terrorist who is of that ethnicity; the problem is that the police will have to interrogate a large number of persons who have no connection with terrorist activity.

The problem that "emergency powers" must address, therefore, is not what can be done, but rather at whom may the authorities direct their attention. It is not a question of excessive measures but a question of application of appropriate measures to an overbroad group:

The question arises whether compulsion can be visited upon an individual simply by virtue of her inclusion in a class composed of some dangerous persons absent an individualized assessment of significant risk . . . . Perhaps the most revered principle under antidiscrimination law is the requirement to make individualized determinations of [a] person's qualifications or eligibility . . . . Given the unequivocal requirement for individualized assessments of risk, what recourse does the state have when, despite its best efforts, it is not able to reliably separate the perceived from the truly dangerous? This becomes a formidable dilemma when the state is capable of demonstrating that the class as a whole does pose a significant health threat and where the intervention proposed is both effective and non-draconian. . . . The requirement of individualized determinations is also inherent in the doctrine of overbreadth found in the Fourth Amendment and other constitutional jurisprudence.

2. Relevant Fourth Amendment Principles

The Fourth Amendment permits only "reasonable" searches.(2) The Supreme Court has held that the "determination of the standard of reasonableness applicable to a particular class of searches requires 'balanc [ing] the nature and quality of the intrusion on the individual's Fourth Amendment interests against the importance of the governmental interests alleged to justify the intrusion." '(3)

a. Applicable Doctrines

The "special needs" doctrine can justify a search, even in the absence of a warrant or probable cause.(4)

"[W]here a Fourth Amendment intrusion serves special government needs, beyond the normal need for law enforcement, it is necessary to balance the individual's privacy expectations against the Government's interests to determine whether it is impractical to require a warrant or some level of individualized suspicion in the particular context.&quot 5) The Court considers three factors: (1) "the nature of the privacy interest upon which the search . . . at issue intrudes;&quot 6)

(2) "the character of the intrusion;&quot 7) and (3) "the nature and immediacy of the government's concern . . . and the efficacy of [the search] for meeting it.&quot 8) Cases where courts use this alternative reasonableness formula often involve civil authorities and usually do not involve criminal penalties.(9)


A closely related concept is the "community caretaking" doctrine, based on the notion that police serve to ensure the safety and welfare of the citizenry at large. Certain emergencies require an immediate government response,(10) known as a community caretaking function.(11) When an officer is pursuing a community caretaking function not involving seizure of a person, no particularized and objective justification is required.(12) Traditional constitutional requirements--warrant, probable cause, etc.--do not apply to this form of police-citizen encounter. Government responses to such emergencies need not be judged by normal Fourth Amendment standards because they are not considered searches or seizures within the meaning of the Fourth Amendment.(13)

Courts use a three-prong test to determine whether police actions are justified as caretaking functions: (1) "there must exist an objectively reasonable basis for a belief in an immediate need for police assistance for the protection of life or substantial property interests;" (2) the officer's actions "must be motivated by an intent to aid," rather than to solve a crime; and (3) "police action must fall within the scope of the emergency."

Accordingly, four principles guide the remainder of this discussion. First, the breadth of discretion afforded to law enforcement authorities should be proportional to the magnitude and proximity of the risk. The more precise the definition of authority for law enforcement officials, and the more that rules of engagement distinguish real security concerns from police caprice, the broader the constitutionally permissible law enforcement authority. Second, counter-terrorism measures must not target persons or groups on the basis of their race or ethnicity or without probable cause. Third, law enforcement measures should be no more intrusive nor entail greater use of force than necessary under specific conditions. Measures likely to raise profound Fourth Amendment concerns, such as intrusion into private dwellings without probable cause, must be justified by an emergency that is both of great magnitude (i.e., the potential level of harm is great) and of great urgency (i.e., the necessity for immediate action outweighs the privacy interest). Measures justified by the necessity of a biological terrorism event may not be used as a pretext to gain unwarranted access for searches nor to conduct other law enforcement activity. Finally, any legal action taken against any individual in connection with counter-terrorism must measure up to the requirements of the Fifth(14) and Sixth Amendments.(15)

b. Relevant Inquiries

Where public health and security are at stake, the legal issue is whether searches directly promote a government interest that outweighs the individual's interest in avoiding the intrusion. This issue comprises six subsidiary questions.

First, how weighty or important is the government's interest? Searches may profoundly contribute to a government interest, but that government interest may be relatively insignificant. The more significant the government interest, the greater the scope given to the authority to conduct searches.

Second, how proximate is the relationship between the search and the government interest? If the search is only tangentially related to the interest, or if there are alternative ways of pursuing the interest, then the need for the search is manifestly reduced.

Third, how are persons or sites selected for searches, and does this selection methodology afford due process? An element of this inquiry is whether the method of selection insinuates wrongdoing that might inappropriately diminish the individual's reputation. If the searches are entirely random and apply to virtually everyone within a given sector (e.g., random vehicle checkpoints), the search scheme may be more tolerable. On the other hand, if individuals are selected due to their racial or ethnic groupings, or if a few individuals are targeted for especially demeaning activity, that program of searches is more subject to challenge.(16)

Fourth, where is the search carried out? A search of a vehicle or of an individual in a public place is far more tolerable than searches of homes because of the high expectation of privacy an individual has when in his home.(17)

Fifth, how intrusive is the search--how much force is used, and what is the scope of the search? Protective sweep searches, conducted without a warrant but only superficially and only to determine whether a more intrusive search can be undertaken safely, are more tolerable than extensive searches backed by force.(18) At the opposite extreme, strip searches or body cavity searches are the least tolerable.

Finally, what use is made of evidence obtained in the search? Fewer legal concerns apply to searches to effectuate a government interest that is health- related and non-punitive. Also, a search from which only evidence is used which directly relates to the asserted prosecutorial purpose may be more tolerable than a search for a purpose that is a mere pretext for a wide-ranging prosecutorial investigation. Thus, Fourth Amendment problems are diminished if the law enforcement personnel overlook evidence of wrongdoing that is unrelated to the asserted purpose of the search.

3. Legal Treatment of Searches and Related Measures

a. Cordoning Areas, Preventing Ingress or Egress

Courts have long held that officials may cordon off an area, establish a quarantine, or erect checkpoints for persons and/or vehicles leaving an area.(19) Both the need to prevent escape of suspected criminals(20) (or carriers of contagion(21)) and the individual's diminished right of privacy (on foot or in a vehicle) support this conclusion. Thus, there is no need to establish "emergency powers" to enable officials to cordon off areas.

b. Compulsory Vaccinations and Other Medical Treatment

Courts are likely to uphold compulsory medical interventions based upon a reasonable assessment of future harm. The courts have held that compulsory vaccinations during periods of contagious outbreaks do not violate due process.(22) Local, state, and federal government, therefore, may legally vaccinate those deemed at risk. A more difficult legal question is presented by quarantines of contagious patients. There have been cases of communicable diseases where courts have required persons to be actually infectious to be subject to isolation or quarantine.(23) These cases, however, are distinguishable because the individual was completely deprived of liberty based on scarce evidence of a current or imminent danger to public health. In cases where the state could demonstrate a "rational nexus" between a relatively non-intrusive intervention and the likely reduction in future harm to the public, there has been little judicial inclination to interfere with reasonable medical judgments.

9. See, e.g., Vernonia, 515 U.S. at 658 (observing "special needs" student-athlete drug test results were not turned over to law enforcement authorities or used for disciplinary action); Von Raab, 489 U.S. at 663 (noting "special needs" search results were not permitted to be given over to the government for prosecution); Skinner v. Railway Labor Executives' Ass'n, 489 U.S. 602, 621 (1989) (noting "special needs" administrative drug test results not sought for criminal prosecution, but rather from adherence to safety regulations). See generally Jennifer Y. Buffaloe, Note, "Special Needs" and the Fourth Amendment: An Exception Poised to Swallow the Warrant Preference Rule, 32 Harv. C.R.-C.L. L. Rev. 529 (1997); Michael Polloway, Comment, Does the Fourth Amendment Prohibit Suspicionless Searches--or do Individual Rights Succumb to the Government's "So-Called" Special Needs?, 10 Seton Hall Const. L.J. 143 (1999). The Supreme Court's most recent pronouncement on the "special needs" doctrine also suggests that the Fourth Amendment standard for biological testing turns, in great part, on whether the information will be used for law enforcement purposes, in which case, the Fourth Amendment standard is rigorous. Ferguson v. Charleston, No. 99-936,-- U.S. --, 2001 WL 273220 (Mar. 21, 2001). By implication, where the information is not used for law enforcement purposes, the latitude offered to the government is broader.

10. See Camara v. Mun. Court of San Francisco, 387 U.S. 523, 539 (1967) (noting warrantless inspections have been "traditionally upheld in emergency situations&quot . The Court cited North American Cold Storage Co. v. Chicago, 211 U.S. 306 (1908) (seizure of unwholesome food), Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) (compulsory smallpox vaccination), and Kroplin v. Truax, 165 N.E. 498 (Ohio 1929) (summary destruction of tubercular cattle). See Camara, 387 U.S. at 539.
 

Sheepshank

(12,504 posts)
205. no threat, no catastrophy, only manufactured hysteria
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:55 AM
Oct 2014

With only one Ebola death in the USA, Due Process is applicable

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
144. You're not frightened in the least?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:08 PM
Oct 2014

You admit there is nothing to be afraid of? Then I can only assume that your agenda is to make others afraid.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
61. You try to put me in a box without due process, based on fear rather than facts, and we
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:45 PM
Oct 2014

are going to have a problem.

 

adigal

(7,581 posts)
33. Did you seriously just say "prison is better"????? I bet you've never been
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:25 PM
Oct 2014

Inside a prison, have you? After that statement, I can't take anything you say seriously.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
70. They can talk on the phone, skype
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:57 PM
Oct 2014

And this person in Maine can stay home with her family.

Food can be brought to them.

If doing that for only 21 days is so awful, you've had a charmed life, I would argue.

pnwmom

(108,995 posts)
236. People used to go through quarantines in the era before telephones, Skype, TV,
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 12:35 AM
Nov 2014

computers, etc.

It's hardly a hardship now compared to the days when quarantines were common.

Prison is better? You've got to be kidding.

The Stanford doctor, Dr. Bucks, has chosen to voluntarily quarantine, away from his wife and children, for the full 21 days. He doesn't want to take a chance of infecting his family or anyone else. So not every Ebola expert agrees with your position.

napi21

(45,806 posts)
5. If YOU had a practice, or a job where you only get so many days off,
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:00 PM
Oct 2014

you'd feel differently! As I understand it, most of the volunteers who go to the stricken countries are in just that position, and they can't leave for 2-3 weeks of service and then ANOTHER 3 WEEKS hiding out somewhere.

I believe all the medical personnel who state "Yu cannot get Ebola until the person who has it is symptomatic, and even then, you must be exposed to their body fluids!" That being the case, I trust the health care workers to self monitor and to KNOW when they are feel sick or get a high temperature.

Bettie

(16,126 posts)
30. That's what I thought
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:22 PM
Oct 2014

This nurse knows the symptoms intimately and will know if she starts showing them.

I trust her to watch her own health and use that knowledge appropriately.

She shouldn't have to be locked away because others are fearful.

Ms. Toad

(34,091 posts)
66. Because that worked so well with Vinson and Spencer
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:55 PM
Oct 2014

2 of the 3 cases of Ebola among medical personnel known to be exposed to Ebola. Both Spencer and Vinson ignored the early symptom of fatigue - a symptom significant and persistent enough that both of them ultimately reported it once they were confirmed to have Ebola.

That symptom should have caused them to self-quarantine themselves until it vanished or was proven not to be Ebola. But it didn't. It is likely that no one was exposed during the 3 days that each of them wandered around after experiencing that first symptom - because their viral load was likely minimal at that time. But the risk was not zero, as evidenced by the money we are now spending monitoring 160+ people for 21 days.

This new nurse shouldn't be locked away for 21 days, but she should stay away from close contact with large quantities of people, and self-monitoring should be enforced by spot checking, daily reporting of symptoms, and self (or forced) quarantine once ANY symptoms appear until the symptoms are proven not to be caused by Ebola.

I would have expected to be able to trust medical personnel, particularly those with first hand experience working with Ebola, but 66% failure is not a risk that is acceptable.

Bettie

(16,126 posts)
98. The level of hysteria about this is staggering
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:46 PM
Oct 2014

But, hey, maybe we should simply all self-quarantine. If no one has contact with any other human for as long as Ebola exists, then we'll all be 100% healthy.

Yes, that was sarcasm.

The level of terror is way out of proportion to the actual risk.

napi21

(45,806 posts)
105. I agree the level od hysteria IS INSANE!
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:03 PM
Oct 2014

Americans have turned into an entire nation of fraidy-cats!!! They're afraid of an attack by Muslims, afraid of black people, afraid of some disease, and on and on. What the hell would our forefathers think of the result of a Country they were trying to build? Geesh!

Bettie

(16,126 posts)
116. I am amazed
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:16 PM
Oct 2014

At how otherwise rational people freak out at the thought of Ebola. It isn't like it is a new disease or as if doctors and nurses haven't cared for people with it before and come home without quarantine measures.

I don't usually come in contact with blood or feces of those I see at the grocery store, but then, maybe I'm unusual or something.

Our forefathers? They'd think we'd all gone crazy.

Crunchy Frog

(26,634 posts)
118. The labeling of alternate opinions as "hysteria" is what I find staggering.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:20 PM
Oct 2014

No terror from me, but I believe that this is a prudent public health measure.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
126. It's interesting - they call it panic, hysteria, etc...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:36 PM
Oct 2014

When they're the ones who are overreacting, to a difference of opinion.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
130. you are advocating locking up healthy people and you do not see the hysteria in that?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:44 PM
Oct 2014

or say, not using a restaurant that three weeks ago had a perfectly healthy woman, that sat in a car, in a parking lot, well away form the restaurant, have a friend walk into restaurant, pick up and order, walk out, and hte restaurant is empty today because people are afraid?

and then say, we are the ones overreacting with education, science, common sense and logic on our side. you know. FACTS. that is overreacting.

yet, locking up a person that is perfectly healthy is reasonable.

ya.

won that argument.

polichick

(37,152 posts)
134. Quarantine for those who have cared for Ebola patients...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:48 PM
Oct 2014

during the incubation period is reasonable imo - no hysteria or panic involved.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
142. if you advocate for one, you MUST advocate the other. so, do we isolate after every shift?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:02 PM
Oct 2014

a medical team and supportive role works a shift, then off they go to 21 days isolation, PAID. and bring on the next shift. on and on.

or do we lock that team up in the hospital and supportive roles, they work there with the one patient until he is virus free or dead, then we send them off to 21 days isolation PAID?

how much of their individual rights do we just ignore out of ignorance and fear?

polichick

(37,152 posts)
143. MUST I? Too funny...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:07 PM
Oct 2014

No doubt we'll have to consider situations as they arise. Different countries, different conditions. Different hospitals, different conditions. Obviously, health and state officials will make the call as they see fit - and citizens can go to the courts if they choose.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
147. health has made the call. its the greedy fearmongering state officials ignoring the health official
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:13 PM
Oct 2014

but, hypocrisy at its best.

once i laid out the two options and how stupid either would be, a total back pedaling.

our medical staff gets it, and monitor. doctors coming in, isolate. that scary scary african ebola to our home grown.

ya

too funny

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
156. We don’t know a lot about this virus
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:51 PM
Oct 2014
At a news conference Tuesday, Maine Department of Health and Human Services Commissioner Mary Mayhew acknowledged that the state’s rules go beyond the federal guidelines. She also said the state could seek a court order to enforce a quarantine.

We don’t know a lot about this virus but we do know from the experiences learned in Texas that they had some equivocal tests within the first 72 hours of testing their health-care workers,” Pinette said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29/after-fight-with-chris-christie-nurse-kaci-hickox-defies-ebola-quarantine-in-maine/


ya. see. i have a problem with policy when the health official admits they do not know a lot about the virus. dont you?

change the fed guidelines from the people that ACTUALLY KNOW the disease, and make up your own rules and call it a day.

admit, you fuckin do not know a lot about the disease.

very reassuring.
 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
131. in all your reason, are you advocating locking up the medical staff in the u.s. caring for ebola
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:46 PM
Oct 2014

victims?

or is it just those traveling from africa that is a risk to you?

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
157. I think you're mistaking frustration for panic
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:52 PM
Oct 2014

I'm frustrated that people either don't know the scientific evidence don't trust the it. A sum total of 2 people in this country have caught ebola here and both were health care workers. The people living in the same apartment as Duncan didn't catch ebola, the other care givers didn't catch ebola.

Ebola is incredibly hard to catch. You have to be exposed to bodily fluids of somebody who is during the transmitting period. More people will die from the flu this winter in this country than will die from ebola in this decade in this country. The flu is almost infinitely easier to catch and can be transmitted before symptoms present.

kcr

(15,320 posts)
210. It's hysteria.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 01:04 PM
Oct 2014

Calling for quarantining of individuals who show no symptoms because people are afraid? There is no other word for it but hysteria.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
155. What if it were a more contagious disease?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:51 PM
Oct 2014

Surely the 21 days of earnings don't trump society's right to stay clear of the virus.

napi21

(45,806 posts)
215. It's NOT! You're inserting a straw man.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 09:35 PM
Oct 2014

I'm really ashamed of my fellow countrymen. for running scared over EVERY possible threat, whether it be some disease or some Muslim boogie-man sneaking up on them and attacking.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
231. my question was a hypothetical
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 09:51 AM
Oct 2014

What if it were? I would think that should trump the financial loss to the individuals, which society could take care of anyway.

And this is a bit scary, at least. It kills quite quickly. We don't want it to spread. It seems a bit reckless some of the OTT attacks on anyone who thinks it might be good to be careful. Terrorism is an entirely different thing.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
16. ah, those arrogant and selfish volunteer health workers
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:06 PM
Oct 2014

When did you ever give up three weeks of your time to help those less fortunate?

Response to jberryhill (Reply #16)

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
12. Did you know they have been coming back for the last 5 months with nary a word until MrDuncan?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:03 PM
Oct 2014

Why are people so eager to believe health care workers are capable of monitoring others but not themselves?

To answer your question, because they are not a threat. They have been successfully self monitoring for 5 MONTHS without a single person being infected by them once they became contagious.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
85. ....but, but, but ....
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:13 PM
Oct 2014

These are highly educated, highly experienced (with Ebola) people ... sent to FIGHT epidemics ... yet they return home and arm chair experts decide they are not capable of monitoring their own health and assessing risk to themselves and others.

 

notrightatall

(410 posts)
13. What's the big deal about a prayer in school...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:04 PM
Oct 2014

what's the big deal about doing what a cop asks......what's the big deal about getting an id, what's the big deal about registering your guns......what's the big deal about housing a soldier in your guest room???????????????? Who the fuck cares. Just comply ' cause I'm a scared little person.

 

jberryhill

(62,444 posts)
14. they are not independently wealthy
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:04 PM
Oct 2014

How about you quit your job for 21 days past your vacation time and see how it works for you.

These are people with jobs who save their time to do volunteer work which benefits us all.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
15. For all the people talking about returning to jobs, no health care setting
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:05 PM
Oct 2014

wants or expects these people back at work within their three weeks, I guarantee that. Liability and all.

RGinNJ

(1,021 posts)
17. For one thing she has not been exposed to anything. These medical workers are
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:07 PM
Oct 2014

covered head to foot with their protective gear. I am pretty sure he'd she been exposed she would had checked into the hospital in Africa.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
18. Er...you must have missed all the previous health care workers who don't
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:11 PM
Oct 2014

remember a breach in protocol or mistakes with PPE, but still became infected. Direct care to a person dying of ebola, even with the proper gear on, means you are at risk of contracting the disease.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
26. Personally I find it deeply troubling that so many people view a public health issue...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:18 PM
Oct 2014

as being about "civil liberties"; it isn't. Quarantine for highly lethal infectious diseases has been a standard procedure for quite some time; it is not unreasonable, and public health officials have always had the authority to impose quarantine. The fact that someone isn't testing postive for antibodies NOW doesn't mean they won't, and "self-quarantine" clearly can't be relied upon (as seen in the case of the doctor in NYC, but also the NBC reporter who was supposed to be "self-quarantining" and was spotted out and about). It looks like a grotesque sense of entitlement, honestly.

 

adigal

(7,581 posts)
28. I have been disturbed by this conversation here and on dailykos
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:20 PM
Oct 2014

I wrote a diary about this, staying she should just shut up and so what's right for 21 days, and I got called mentally ill, paranoid and hysterical. The lack of concern for others from Democrats turns my stomach.

laundry_queen

(8,646 posts)
71. Agreed.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:01 PM
Oct 2014

I find it really shocking that some are even saying it's okay if a few people get sick because of no quarantine, because staying at home for 21 days is HARD. Generally, as you said, Democrats and those on the left pride themselves caring for the greater good. Apparently not in this case. Because staying at home is HARD. And mean.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
34. As someone pointed out upthread, they have been coming back for five months with no infections
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:27 PM
Oct 2014

It's only now since the M$M drove a huge fear freakout that people are even paying any attention.

Where was the coverage three months ago of the deadly threat from returning health care workers who have volunteered in Africa?

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
74. Dr Spencer is one HCW out of many who have been returning trouble free for months
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:05 PM
Oct 2014

Many other HCW have already been and come home. Without ANYONE freaking out about them.

Until now when its politically expedient.



 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
47. Three months ago the USA wasn't taking it seriously.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:38 PM
Oct 2014

And quarantine is sensible in that it isolates people who may be at risk of having the virus for the incubation period; that's the whole point of quarantine.

ecstatic

(32,731 posts)
169. the disease is spreading exponentially in West Africa
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 02:29 AM
Oct 2014

5 months is a long time when a disease is spreading exponentially. The disease wasn't as big of a risk to the US five months ago as it is now. According to WHO, by December there will be 10,000 cases a week; by January there will be 1.4 million cases. The entire world needs to be paying attention at this point.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
37. Science has shown that they are not infectious before showing symptoms. Yes, detain those who ARE
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:30 PM
Oct 2014

infectious, but those who aren't? Why beyond pandering to public fears.

That doctor in NYC was not under any "self quarantine" but self monitoring which was watching himself for symptoms, and he called when that happened, got help asap.

That NBC person was under self quarantine for some odd reason and did break it.

I find it DEEPLY troubling that people are willing to allow the detention of people who are not a threat and without due process. That is very troubling.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
52. You clearly don't understand what quarantine is
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:40 PM
Oct 2014

quarantine is the isolation and monitoring of people who are asymptomatic who may have the virus. The whole point of quarantine is to wait to see if they develop the illness, not to wait until they're already symptomatic.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
64. It is, but only up to a point.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:49 PM
Oct 2014

The rights of the individual who may present a danger to public health do not trump the public interest in curtailing the potential spread of a highly lethal infectious disease. Weighed in the balance, the imposition of quarantine is not unreasonable or excessive in this case...especially when one considers that the blood tests that exist can't tell if someone has the virus until they have antibodies, which they generally don't until they're symptomatic. Again, the point of quarantine is not to isolate people who are sick, but to isolate people who may become sick.

ecstatic

(32,731 posts)
168. I wonder how many of them detest the anti-vaxxer crowd?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 02:23 AM
Oct 2014

I'd love to see a poll.

If anyone is for forced vaccinations but against 21-day quarantines, I'd love to know the reason why.

 

adigal

(7,581 posts)
27. This nurse got a taste of publicity and loved it! Now she's challenging Maine
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:18 PM
Oct 2014

She's obviously not thinking clearly.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
40. Seriously, how dare anyone protest being held without due process, without being a threat!!!11111
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:32 PM
Oct 2014

Grab anyone you think may at some point be a threat and lock them up! No need for a court order or any silly things like that.

She's thinking very clearly.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
44. ryan white. pure hysteria, not scientifically or factually needed. self monitoring 100% SUCCESSFUL
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:37 PM
Oct 2014

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,856 posts)
59. Exactly. I am disheartened at all this unreasoning fear
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:44 PM
Oct 2014

that has no basis in science.

I live in a city that has the largest Liberian population in the United States. People are coming here from Liberia every day, and they are being monitored. They are not being involuntarily quarantined. Nobody is panicking.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
83. Had an Ebola scare here in my city. Hospital cleared out and sent to other hospital.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:11 PM
Oct 2014

I started getting calls from people out of state. I did not even consider being fearful, not one moment.

SteveG

(3,109 posts)
45. Can you go that long without a paycheck?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:37 PM
Oct 2014

will the banks forgive your missed mortgage payments, you electric bill. These people donate a month or so of their time without pay, adding another month can make the first month impossible.

 

woolldog

(8,791 posts)
63. I mean,
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:47 PM
Oct 2014

they just got back from volunteering for months without a paycheck. I suspect a lot of these volunteers are already doing well financially, otherwise they wouldnt be able to jet off to Africa for months to volunteer.

Also someone upthread pointed out that state governments can take extraordianry measures to make sure those quarantined aren't harmed financially. It will be a small number of people.

SteveG

(3,109 posts)
88. A lot of states won't act like NY
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:19 PM
Oct 2014

NJ has made no provision to make up lost wages for people they put into quarantine. I doubt Florida will either. And I strongly suspect you are wrong about how well off these volunteers are. Doctors? maybe, but the nurses? technicians? etc? I doubt it strongly.

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
65. Maybe she just has no patience with grandstanding politicians?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:53 PM
Oct 2014

She got interrogated at the airport like a criminal at the airport, hauled off to Bellevue in a vehicle with sirens blaring, shoved into a tent with no shower and no flushing toilet and told that this would be her situation from the next three weeks.. If she hadn't flatly refused to surrender her cell phone, she would still be there. Then, she was "allowed" to return home to Maine, where she is now being threatened with house arrest. All this not because the science supports it, but because grandstanding politicians are pandering to a scared public. Forgive her if she is a little feisty. You know the old saying: No good deed goes unpunished.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
69. Or ... you stay inside until its all over.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 08:57 PM
Oct 2014

Get some duct-tape, and some plastic wrap, and redecorate.

MFM008

(19,818 posts)
72. How about 2 negative
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:04 PM
Oct 2014

For Ebola blood tests? Do you think she wouldn't quarantine herself if she'd had a positive blood test?

Crunchy Frog

(26,634 posts)
124. If she had a positive blood test she would be in hospital being treated.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:34 PM
Oct 2014

Negative blood tests mean nothing in this context. When you are incubating an infection, you will still not test positive until you become symptomatic, which can happen anytime up to 21 days after your last exposure.

LostInAnomie

(14,428 posts)
82. Some people value themselves more than public health.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:10 PM
Oct 2014

I know, I know, "SHE'S NOT CONTAGIOUS!". But, that doesn't mean that precautions shouldn't be put in place. It harms no one for her to be quarantined for 21 days.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
93. I think what you mean is that it isn't an inconvenience to you.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:37 PM
Oct 2014

I am a lot more afraid of the fear mongers than an asymptomatic nurse who has tested negative twice. Yes she still needs to monitor, it could be the virus hasn't reached a detectable level yet. But, in that case she won't be contagious either.

LostInAnomie

(14,428 posts)
96. No, it isn't an inconvenience to anyone.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:43 PM
Oct 2014

At least not one that should trump public health concerns. Public health officials have the right to quarantine anyone they have a reasonable suspicion on being exposed to Ebola. Nurse Hickox without a doubt has been exposed. Her right to move around does not trump public health concerns.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
103. No it isn't about being reasonably suspicious
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:01 PM
Oct 2014

after two negative tests. Now we are entering the unreasonable territory. Yes, she was exposed. We need to move beyond that and assertain if it is reasonable that she contracted the disease. At this point it is not a reasonable to believe she did. She still needs to self monitor. Some people might say that is being overly cautious, I am fine with that.

LostInAnomie

(14,428 posts)
114. Those tests only prove...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:13 PM
Oct 2014

... that she isn't producing antibodies yet, not that she doesn't have the disease. So the concern is still warrented. As long as there is a reasonable suspicion, she should stay in quarantine.

onecaliberal

(32,897 posts)
90. 1 word, Science.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 09:28 PM
Oct 2014

The virus is not airborne, Why would they need to quarantine themselves if they are without symptoms?
Not only that but could you go 21 days without pay? Is that how we repay the amazing doctors willing to go to Africa when help is so desperately needed there?

napi21

(45,806 posts)
109. WHAT? You actually thnk the scardy-cats are going to believe in science?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:07 PM
Oct 2014

They don't believe in it when you talk climate change, some don't believe in vaccinating their kids, and NOW you want them to believe DOCTORS? Yes it's a scarcastic remark, but unfortunately true too.

Expat in Korea

(119 posts)
173. That's what struck me
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 03:25 AM
Oct 2014

about that Maine nurse's response. The quarantine isn't based on science. It's based on political posturing and public ignorance. She said she's abiding by the CDC's guidelines, and that's good enough for me. Then again, I live in Korea...

Crunchy Frog

(26,634 posts)
107. I know it's not a popular position here, but I agree with you.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:06 PM
Oct 2014

And no, I'm not talking about the tent with the porta potty, but hanging out at her home in Maine with her boyfriend? I don't see what all the fuss is about.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
112. U.s. Medical team dealing with Ebola. Quarantine with pay 21 days. Your call, lock them up in hospit
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:11 PM
Oct 2014

And make team exclusive care taker of Ebola victim until virus free or dead and then 21 days quarantine, paid. Or after each shift quarantine 21 days paid, and bring in new team for next shift.

Your call

Which one. Just how much are we taking rights.

You so afraid of THEM over there? Be just as fearful if ours and have the guts to restrict all

Cause really

What's the big deal

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
121. why? why is it not contemplated? that merely means we are ignorant hypocrites. if it is so dire
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:28 PM
Oct 2014

to lock up medical staff from africa, it is THAT dire to lock up u.s. staff.

that makes not an iota bit of logical sense.

yet, we want to create policy out of no sense at all.

no thank you. i will not be a part of the ignorance thru fear that ruled during the tsa, patriot act crap.

 

seabeyond

(110,159 posts)
128. you argue medical staff from abroad should be locked up and no opinion about u.s. worker.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:38 PM
Oct 2014

then when called on it, you have no answer but to shrug. ya.

i take that argument seriously.

it is about as i expect with this fearmongering garbage.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
111. Why don't all the people bitching and moaning about healthcare workers volunteering their vacations
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:11 PM
Oct 2014

to fight Ebola in Africa to protect you here in the US not submitting to 3 weeks of unecessary house arrest go volunteer in Africa yourselves?

Just because you aren't trained medical professionals doesn't mean you couldn't help with other necessary work, whether cleaning or handing out food.

What a bunch of freakin' cowards.

She is not contagious. Unless you are symptomatic, you are not contagious. They are monitoring their temperatures twice/day and monitoring all symptoms. They know what the fuck they're doing.

Chuuku Davis

(565 posts)
119. Youngsters are always impatient
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:23 PM
Oct 2014

They want to get out and talk about what happened
Been there myself 40 years ago

 

TM99

(8,352 posts)
227. With the maturity, unfortunately, of a teenager.
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 06:08 AM
Oct 2014

Yes, a teenager. I want this, y'all be damned. I have the right to have what I want, right now, and you can't stop me. I am special, and I know more than you do. Blah blah blah.

Here is an example of how a mature adult responds to this type of situation:

http://www.pri.org/stories/2014-10-02/liberias-top-doctor-quarantines-herself-set-example-her-ebola-ridden-country

This medical professional understands the science, civil rights, and more importantly that she must weigh personal rights and convenience with public perception, modeling of good behavior, and the severity of this disease.

Ebola has finally come to America, and while the severity is no where near what it is in Africa, there is understandable public fear, misunderstanding, and poorly conceived protocols & responses by the medical professionals. Hickox had the opportunity to model exemplary behavior, educate the public on what is happening in Africa, and inspire others to volunteer, and instead she has chose to appear like a narcissistic brat seeking her 15 minutes of fame in the public eye.

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
233. Something my dad always used to say:
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 10:08 AM
Oct 2014

"The main thing is not to get excited. "

OK, so he usually said it in jest. But he was right. Giving in to panic, pandering to the "Fearbola!" crowd, and allowing grandstanding politicians to set policies is bad idea.That is what is happening here, and Kaci Hickox knows it. She knows a lot more about this diease than they do.If the CDC and other authorities decide it's necessary to change their protocols and recommendations for handling ebola in this country and she refuses to cooperate with that, then we'll talk. Until then, I'll stick with what my dad used to say.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
206. Spreads on the internet ... symptoms include ...
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 12:16 PM
Oct 2014

Delusional panic attacks accompanied by silly demands.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
132. Because they're saints
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:48 PM
Oct 2014

and the invisible skyfather would not possibly let them get infected, to pass that infection on to others.

Oh, that Dr. Spencer thing? Well, he lied to the cops, and he got his divine retribution for it. But that couldn't happen to anyone else.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
138. Unless somebody is symptomatic, they are not contagious. And just because the Daily Mail claims,
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 10:52 PM
Oct 2014

based on yet another unnamed source, that Dr. Spencer lied, does not mean that Dr. Spencer lied.

It is at least as likely, if not more likely and highly probable, that the Daily Mail libeled Dr. Spencer in order to sell more papers.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
149. that's "the public's" problem
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:26 PM
Oct 2014

"The public" doesn't have any right to quarantine anybody other than themselves.

And in order to enforce a mandatory quarantine against Kaci, LePage and company have to prove that she is a risk to public health. Since she has tested negative twice and as long as she remains asymptomatic, they are going to have a hard time coming up with any evidence that she is a risk to anybody.

If Mainers are so afraid of catching Ebola from Kaci, they can stay home until November 10. After all, it's just a couple weeks. It's not like their using their vacation time to do anything worthwhile anyway.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
151. It's our problem, too
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:33 PM
Oct 2014

I expect you will know what I'm talking about on Wednesday morning next week.

We have the President, acting coldly professorial, versus the public, acting wildly emotional, even irrational (I'll gladly give you that) but he gets one vote, there are about a hundred million other voters whose fears will manifest themselves at the ballot box.

The timing of this Ebola thing is most unfortunate for our side. Too bad we've been unable to deal with the optics of it.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
148. You believe God gave Dr Spencer ebola for tabloid rumored lying?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:14 PM
Oct 2014

It doesn't surprise me you believe a tabloid rumor but calling ebola "divine retribution" for something that rumor says happened after he became ill goes beyond what I expected of you.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
150. Didn't the use of the term
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:29 PM
Oct 2014

"invisible skyfather" signal to you that I was being extremely facetious? In fact, let it go on the record that I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in some entity that plays chess games with human beings.

I do believe that there are those who think that those who go to West Africa to fight Ebola are somehow exalted above the rest of us, and while not necessarily being the beneficiaries of divine favor, are at least beyond reproach when it comes to their personal conduct. I respectfully disagree.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
153. They are highly trained, highly motivated, high principled professionals
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:47 PM
Oct 2014

read the article posted somewhere on DU about Hickox's background. MSF doesn't just accept any applicants. When she was rejected the first time she applied, she went back to school and got more degrees and certifications.

They know the reality of Ebola far more than we do, and have good reason to monitor their symptoms carefully and report in as soon as anything turns up out of the normal.

They didn't volunteer for this work and risk their own lives, only to bring Ebola back here. I'm honestly not worried about any of the returning healthcare workers spreading Ebola. It's the Duncans that I have been concerned about all along.

I expect it will take a few unexpected cases here that don't spread, at least beyond the healthcare workers treating them, to allay people's fears.

In the meantime, we got our extra PPE training at my lab. I took mine today. As I feared, it's a bunch of slides. I found multiple mistakes, which I plan to send to my manager.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
158. I haven't the slightest doubt
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 12:03 AM
Oct 2014

that they have the best of intentions.

Your last paragraph is one of the reasons why faith in the authorities is particularly hard to find right now. I finally found a proper survey about how Americans feel about Ebola:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/october_2014/voters_strongly_support_quarantines_state_action_to_fight_ebola

Yeah, it's Rasmussen, reich wing site, etc. Still, it has more validity than the "if you visit our website, you can vote in our poll" type of survey. Both of those types of surveys reveal the depth of doubt about how the authorities are handling this thing. Call them irrational, emotional, or even nonsensical, but the people are going to take that into the polls with them on Tuesday. Yes, they might wise up by January, but at that point, it will be too late.

Glad to see that like me, you are indeed concerned about the West African tourists. It's not an extreme hardship to say that the window is closed until this Ebola thing is a bit more under control. It's also not unreasonable to say that quarantining oneself after arriving from West Africa doing Ebola work is a prudent thing to do, given the level of fear sprouting in the United States over this disease.

Sometimes, you just gotta do the right thing, even if it doesn't make scientific sense.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
174. Yeah, that's what I said
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:15 AM
Oct 2014

It's not about doing what is needed to stop the spread of Ebola, but doing what is needed to stop the fear of Ebola. One is medical science, the other is psychology.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
186. Quarantines cannot be legally based on psychology
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 08:27 AM
Oct 2014

The government does not have the right to infringe on one person's freedom to go about their life in order to assuage the irrational fear of another person.

They only can force a quarantine if that person represents a real risk. LePage will have to prove in court that Hickox represents a risk to the public health. Unless and until she exhibits a symptom of something, he's going to have a tough time proving that.

What I find frightening is how many DUers believe that two known bullies, one of whom is a tea-partier bully to boot, think they in any way, shape or form did the right thing by violating this woman's rights.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
216. We're about to see what happens
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:28 PM
Oct 2014

My prediction is that the court will weigh the possible danger to the entire public, and the power of the executive against another couple weeks of staying at home for Nurse Hickox, and decide that the needs of the many, irrational though they may be, outweigh the need of the one.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
229. they have yet to obtain their court order
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 08:42 AM
Oct 2014

"The state has made it clear it's going to do something. But its hands are tied.

"The first thing the governor has to do, which he has not yet done, is get a court order which requires her to stay in quarantine," CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said. "There is no court order now. She's not violating anything by taking a bike ride or leaving her house."

There's no guarantee the governor will be able to get a court order, Toobin said, because science does not consider her in a communicable situation."

And from her boyfriend:

"Wilbur said they are not trying to cause trouble and want the community to feel at ease.

"We did not go into the grocery store. We are not trying to get anyone sick," he said. "We don't believe that we can get anyone sick. We're not trying to push any limits here. We're members of this community too, and we want to make everyone feel comfortable.""



http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/31/health/us-ebola/

My guess is by the time they get a date for a hearing, her 21 days will be up. And one of LePage's quotes face-saving quotes yesterday implied that the police have had threats against her and the police are there to protect her.


customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
234. It seems as though I was wrong
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 12:26 AM
Nov 2014

I guess the court figured a modified limited sort of isolation was enough.

In any case, the word "Ebola" was kept in the news all week because of this, and that's not good for Tuesday.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
235. yup. the court order came today and she's back to what she was already doing
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 12:30 AM
Nov 2014

monitor her temp, report to health officials, and go to hospital if she becomes symptomatic.

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for Christie and LePage to come off like the fear-mongering bullies that they are...

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
237. Continue what she was doing, no need to isolate her or restrict her movements.
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 12:36 AM
Nov 2014
http://news.yahoo.com/life-goes-nurse-standoff-over-ebola-053514854.html

Judge Charles C. LaVerdiere ruled that Hickox must continue daily monitoring of her health but said there is no need to isolate her or restrict her movements because she has no symptoms and is therefore not contagious.

The judge also decried the "misconceptions, misinformation, bad science and bad information" circulating about the lethal disease in the U.S.
(clip)

Maine health officials had gone to court on Thursday in an attempt to bar her from crowded public places and require her to stay at least 3 feet from others until the 21-day incubation period for Ebola was up on Nov. 10. She would have been free to jog or go bike riding. But the judge turned the state down.
(clip)

"The court is fully aware of the misconceptions, misinformation, bad science and bad information being spread from shore to shore in our country with respect to Ebola," he wrote. "The court is fully aware that people are acting out of fear and that this fear is not entirely rational."
 

Demit

(11,238 posts)
189. That was the reasoning behind burning witches & casting out demons.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 09:29 AM
Oct 2014

Torturing people to get them to confess they were witches and minions of Satan.

That people could so casually submit to absolute, unchecked authority is chilling to me.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
217. Irrational comparison
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:30 PM
Oct 2014

The fear, however unscientifically supported (by the science we think we know so far) versus the religious superstitions of people hundreds of years ago, is simply not comparable.

Nice try, though.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
228. Accepting, rather that denying its existence
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 07:27 AM
Oct 2014

is not nourishing ignorance in its many forms. In order to deal with a problem, you have to acknowledge that it is a problem, rather than just saying that it doesn't exist because it simply isn't 'logical' to be there.

It took a long time to get the Western world out of the mess that religion got it into with the Inquisition, it took a long time since Stonewall to get to the point where a majority of states have marriage equality, and it's going to take more than a few weeks before the election to deal with Ebola fears.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
211. Are you saying don't do what is needed to stop the spread, instead what is needed to stop the fear?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 02:01 PM
Oct 2014

I can't believe that is what you are advocating for. Please clarify.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
218. What I'm saying is
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:34 PM
Oct 2014

Deal with the biggest problem, which is the fear, no matter how rational or irrational it is. A couple weeks of extra time spent inside one's home is not a terrible price to pay for resolution of that fear.

I've had an ear cocked to what people are saying about this, without chiming in with my own opinion, and with her defiance, Nurse Hickox seems to be frittering away whatever "good guy" points (please excuse the possible sexism of that comment) she has gained by helping the needs of Ebola sufferers in West Africa.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
219. " A couple weeks of extra time spent inside one's home is not a terrible price to pay for resolution
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:44 PM
Oct 2014

Yes it is.

We need to confront this through education. People who stay blind, or misinformed to it will never get over their fear. Fear must be confronted with knowledge in order to overcome it.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
220. Hold someone captive to alleviate the unfounded fears of others? Fail big time. Educate people
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:51 PM
Oct 2014

Educate people rather than pandering to their fears.


Nurse Hickox is standing up for her constitutionally given rights and anyone who says "oh, just give them up for a bit so others won't be scared" is incredibly wrong.

Several of us in my neighborhood did not like 1 neighbor target shooting so maybe we could've tried to get his guns removed, him locked up for a while because we were afraid he might someday shoot us. No. We visited to see what he was doing, made sure he was doing it safely and though the noise is obnoxious, he showed he is not a danger.

Educate people. Don't take away their rights to pander to the fearful. Shame on anyone who thinks that is in any way right.

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
222. We'll see what the Maine court does
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 12:22 AM
Oct 2014

I was just giving my prediction, and was not concerned how it fell within your perfectly logical worldview.

diabeticman

(3,121 posts)
141. WHO IS GOING TO PAY THEIR BILLS? They have already VOLENTEER their time and skills for what
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:01 PM
Oct 2014

is usually 60 days now if you tack on 21 more days to that VOLUNTEER time this can really cause them to lose their jobs, not to mention getting behind on bills.


boston bean

(36,223 posts)
175. No hospital in their right mind would allow a nurse or doctor
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:33 AM
Oct 2014

who were exposed to ebola patients back to work until the 21 days are over. And if they do, they are out of their freaking minds.

Come on! This time frame is well built into their plans when they decide to go and help.

boston bean

(36,223 posts)
181. Africa, no.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:49 AM
Oct 2014

I support and still do support non US citizen travel restrictions of those traveling from W. Africa with end destination here.


 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
197. ya you did. Some fool demanded exactly that and you supported it.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:08 AM
Oct 2014

You also wanted a complete travel ban on West Africa.

Now you want to punish health care workers for no good reason.

boston bean

(36,223 posts)
201. I did?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:21 AM
Oct 2014

If I accidentally supported someone who wanted to ban americans from travel to and from from W. Africa, it was not my intention.

Also, you stated I supported a quarantine of the whole of the continent of AFRICA. That of course was foolishness on your part, right. I never did support that, did I? Which was the accusation I was responding to.

Secondly, quarantine is not a punishment. It is a tool used by public health officials.

Punishment would be your feeling. I don't.

We have differing opinions, why so much hostility?

diabeticman

(3,121 posts)
182. NO, it is not! and some of these health care workers have gone months ago and come back and
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:59 AM
Oct 2014

have seen people and worked and guess what NO OUT BREAK!!!

boston bean

(36,223 posts)
183. They don't go directly back to work until the 21 days are up.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 08:04 AM
Oct 2014

Months ago, less than 21 days??

Why do you think Craig Spencer wasn't back to work??? Because no one told him to stay home? Or that it wasn't good practiceto return to work after having exposure to ebola patients until the 21 day incubation period was over??

No, nurses and doctors don't go right back to work. They wait for 21 days.

 

KMOD

(7,906 posts)
184. I agree
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 08:12 AM
Oct 2014

but food for thought: Emory's being doing it over and over.

Yes, I know the risks are different, but still...

MattBaggins

(7,904 posts)
159. When the storm hit the Phillipines a few years back
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 12:08 AM
Oct 2014

a nurse took her vacation time and went there to help. The rest of took up hours to help cover for her and did so gladly but if an extra 3 weeks were tacked on it would have made it impossible.

If I were asked to help out in an ebola area I would have to decline. Not because of the pay, the danger, my family or time. I would have to refuse because of the fear-mongering idiots back here.

BellaKos

(318 posts)
170. Something to be considered
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 03:08 AM
Oct 2014

There are now three incidents where health care workers did not comply strictly with the CDC protocols of self-monitoring which limit mass transportation and contact with crowds: Doctor Snyderman went out to a restaurant. Amber Vinson got on a plane. And Doctor Spensor went bowling and traveled on a subway.
From that we know that all health care workers cannot be trusted to comply with CDC recommendations.

Meanwhile, as a result of Amber Vinson's trip to Ohio, Frontier Airlines had to ground and sanitize planes. The company has no doubt lost Christmas business. And the bridal shop where Vinson spent three hours was closed down for a period of time. (Has it reopened yet?) We don't know if the merchandise in the shop had to be thrown out, but we do know that the hourly-wage, retail clerks who worked there lost income. We also know that 100 people now have to be monitored because of their exposure to Vinson. CDC simply doesn't have enough people to track countless numbers of possible contacts if this kind of thing were to continue.

Doctor Spensor's bowling night resulted in the bowling alley being shut down, therefore impacting not only that business but hourly-wage employees there as well. And his trip on the subway concerned, if not frightened, the general public in New York.

So on balance, a forced quarantine is necessary because not all health care workers comply with the protocols of self-monitoring. And by not doing so, there is a negative impact on the general public, businesses, and their employees. Science has less to do with it than does the flow of commerce, the mental security of the general public, and -- let's face it -- human nature.

People are wringing their hands over the possible loss of income and inconvenience of health care workers, while I'm more concerned about the retail employee in the bridal shop not being able to pay her rent or buy Christmas presents because she has lost at least a week's worth of income -- if not 21 days of income. I'm also concerned about the owner of the bridal shop. Will anyone return to her shop ever again now that they *perceive* it to be contaminated?

I have very little sympathy for the nurse in Maine when I see that defiance of a quarantine has a rather large ripple effect on many people who have fewer resources than she.

uppityperson

(115,680 posts)
171. Self monitor vs quarantine/isolate/contain
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 03:19 AM
Oct 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025718395

And, fwiw, Vinson did ask CDC about flying and they said it was ok. You seem to have missed that. And Dr Spencer was not under a quarantine, just self monitoring his temp and watching for other symptoms like he did. So before you snark on about health care workers not following CDC recommendations, you should probably try to find examples where they did not do so, not use examples where they did what the CDC said to do.

Just a suggestion.

BellaKos

(318 posts)
209. Snark?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 01:04 PM
Oct 2014

My understanding is that the official CDC protocols have always been that after exposure, one should avoid mass transportation and crowds for 21 days. But yes, you're right. Vinson did receive permission to fly and I had forgotten about that. Even so, I am not clear as to whether she got permission from the lame and obviously sloppy Public Health Dept. in Texas or CDC directly. And even so, the reason she was given permission is that health care workers at that time were considered at *extremely* low risk, because it was assumed that they had the proper protection equipment and that they knew how to use it. Obviously, this was not the case in Texas.

Now, however, there is an element of the unknown in the potential transmission of the virus. And this is evident by the fact that the cameraman does not *know* how he got infected. It's also evident in that we now have five (perhaps more?) health care workers in the US who have contracted the disease -- which historically is an unusually high ratio.

My position is not only a question of exactly how the disease was transmitted among the above health care workers, but there is also a larger element of the unknown inherent in the American health care system. And that is that each state has its own standards and each hospital has its own standards of treatment, protocols, safety, and training, so there is no national standard. Nor is there national oversight.

But the major element of the unknown in this complex, highly variable, and fluid situation is human nature. Health care workers are exposed to patients who are extremely infectious -- that point in the course of the disease when the viral load is at its highest. The public cannot be certain that each worker who returns will be conscientious enough to avoid exposing not just their families and friends, but also the public at large. It is human nature for one to be in denial or to assume that fatigue, headache or other early symptoms of ebola are merely jet lag.

And given that the vast majority of Americans are scientifically illiterate, it is also human nature for people to be afraid of a disease that has a 50% to 70% death rate. This is not the flu. This is a disease that kills more often than not.

So on balance, quarantine is a reasonable solution. It assures the public that the chances of spreading the disease are at a minimum. It's unfortunate if that discourages others who would otherwise volunteer to work in Africa. It's unfortunate that these health care workers are inconvenienced. Too bad about that, but the disease is deadly. That's the reality. Those are the cards we have to play.

And another thing. Would you buy clothes from the bridal shop in Ohio now? I guarantee you that there will be many people in the community who will not, so as Amber Vinson is making her speech after being cleared of ebola, the owner of the bridal shop may be facing bankruptcy.

Would I buy clothes in the bridal shop? Probably because I do understand that Vinson was not infectious before she had a fever. On the other hand, the CDC has stated that the virus is alive and therefore contagious on surfaces for only 20 minutes, or maybe up to 90 minutes, but I have read studies that say that the virus is contagious up to 23 days! under certain conditions. That may be why the planes, the various apartments, the bridal shop, and the bowling alley have been sanitized by the health authorities. Can you think of another reason to go to all that trouble and expense? Again, another unknown.

snappyturtle

(14,656 posts)
185. Excellent! Having had a studio/shop at one time I thought of the
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 08:14 AM
Oct 2014

ramifications of Vinson and the bridal shop 3 hour 'visit'.

liberal N proud

(60,344 posts)
176. In all respect, we quarantined astronauts when they returned from the moon
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:38 AM
Oct 2014

All we need to do is set up a comfortable apartment or dorm where they stay for 21 days with full amenities. Make it feel like they are on vacation.

It just part of the tour!

Putting them in a tent like the did in New Jersey was just wrong, but if it was done with dignity and even provide some perks, it would be the best prevention.

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
230. I remember that.
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 09:49 AM
Oct 2014

It was done because those astronauts might have brought back microbes and other pathogens about which we knew absolutely nothing. Not so with ebola. We have been dealing with that virus for years now, and know how it is transmitted and what precautions are necessary. Big difference.

unblock

(52,323 posts)
179. gee, why would anyone object to going to prison for 3 weeks for no good reason?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:44 AM
Oct 2014

the height of arrogance is to insist that not only that healthy people be imprisoned in solitary confinement for three weeks while people afflicted with an irrational fear can galavant around town, ...

but to then also insist that those imprisoned shouldn't even complain about it!

99Forever

(14,524 posts)
180. Your paranoid foolishness is embarrassing.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 07:47 AM
Oct 2014

Good grief, turn off the idiot box, it's destroying your thinking process.

longship

(40,416 posts)
188. It is science!
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 09:11 AM
Oct 2014

The lack of science is ignorance, which is what these quaratine mandates are.

As the CDC has stated -- and after all they've only been studying Ebola for decades -- Ebola may be highly contagious and deadly, but transmission is not easy.

If you take actions like in NY, NJ, and MN, making quarantines mandatory, the sole outcome will be the inevitable loss of those who will help stem the tide of this epidemic. This, when there is minimum danger for infection by everything science-based medicine tells us.

That's what the CDC and WHO and everybody on the ground in West Africa are saying. Anybody saying otherwise are lying.

dilby

(2,273 posts)
192. Please define exposed.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 10:50 AM
Oct 2014

Because right now people are using being in the same country as someone who had Ebola as being exposed. If she has had infected fluids on her skin I would define that as exposed. But if she took all precautions, wore her protective suit and everything else I do not consider her exposed.

We have scientists right now working in labs througout the world who are working with Ebola trying to find a vaccine, our current Politicians who are making a mockery of science would classify these Scientists as having been exposed and probably if the public was worried would demand they are held under a 21 day quarantine before they can join the rest of society. That to me is silly, it would be like saying a doctor who treats an AIDS patient has been exposed to HIV and should be quarantined for 6 months.

redgreenandblue

(2,088 posts)
194. Because there is no compelling reason to do that?
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 10:58 AM
Oct 2014

Why can't they all wear purple underwear for three months?

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
196. The price does indeed, seem much smaller when we ask others to pay it.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:07 AM
Oct 2014

" It's a small price to pay for the general well being and health of the public...."

The price does indeed, seem much smaller when we ask others to pay it. No doubt, the only ones who believe it is a "big deal" are the ones being coerced into it.

 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
198. I can't imagine living in such dread and fear all the time.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:13 AM
Oct 2014

How does one go out and about, where the real risks of death and other disasters are so much higher than the risk from exposure to somebody who was working with ebola patients? How does such person drive a car? Fly on an airplane? Walk down a busy road? Ride a bicycle?

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
199. A tent with no running water for 21 days
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:15 AM
Oct 2014

It wasn't safe anyway. Someone would have to deal with her waste. If she did have ebola, people would in danger of getting infected. This quarantine was all political and not at all science based, IMO.

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
203. The reason for the quarantine is to please
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 11:40 AM
Oct 2014

the hair on fire crowd. It isn't necessary if there are no symptoms.

 

La Lioness Priyanka

(53,866 posts)
214. LOL.
Thu Oct 30, 2014, 06:06 PM
Oct 2014

you people are ridiculous. you call someone who donates their time/money and possibly their lives to help an epidemic, arrogant. really, have you no shame?

merrily

(45,251 posts)
226. Yes, if anything characterizes a health care worker who risks his or her own life for ebola patients
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 05:45 AM
Oct 2014

it's eagerness to put others at risk for ebola.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
232. Which health care workers? Only those returning from Africa? Or all the health care workers who
Fri Oct 31, 2014, 10:06 AM
Oct 2014

are taking care of patients in our US hospitals? They have been doing exactly the same job in both places. None of them except the two nurses in the hospital in Texas have gotten ebola. Nor have the 50 some health care workers who returned from Africa before we panicked. The way that we diagnose this disease is by taking a temperature and I an quite sure all health care workers know how to do this.

The two nurses exposed in Texas would not have gotten ebola IF their hospital had bothered to listen to the warnings and trained their staff properly and supplied them with the right equipment. The hospital administration was at fault.

This panic has got to stop. Caution yes but making health care workers into prisoners is a step too far.

Hamlette

(15,412 posts)
238. The flu is easier to catch and kills 20,000 in US per year
Sat Nov 1, 2014, 01:22 AM
Nov 2014

I remember this when we first learned of AIDs, if Fox news had been around, they would have spread the rumors that you can catch it from door knobs. And we kids still went swimming when we knew that is how you got polio.

You can't catch ebola from someone passing you on a bike.

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