Many Progressive Democrats Are Waiting for Godot.

[MineralMan]

They're waiting for someone or something that won't be coming today, or any other day. If we wait and sit under the tree, talking and waiting, we will do nothing. Godot is not coming. He will never come. We must get up and get on with the business at hand. If Godot ever shows up, we shouldn't be there. We should already have taken up our business.

Bernie Sanders? Elizabeth Warren? Are they Godot? Are we waiting for them to save us or to tell us what to do? Let's get moving, and if they show up, that's great. If not, we'll already be in action, not sitting around talking about diverse subjects, waiting for...

[Peacetrain]

1. Truer words never said..

[shenmue]

2. Yeah

But try saying that here.

[steve2470]

3. I never saw that play but...

I get your point.

I have no problem with the country and the Democratic Party moving to the left. It takes a few progressives getting galvanized and leading the rest of us. Until then, we're not moving at all. Good OP, MM.

[Aerows]

73. "I never saw that play" n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

4. "Are we waiting for them to save us" - who is this "we"? nt.

[MineralMan]

6. I don't know, Warren.

In my case, I stopped waiting and got active in working with my local Democratic organization to help select and elect progressive candidates. The result is that in my districts, we have just that. Not solely due to my participation, of course, but due to the participation of many.

I stopped chatting under the tree and waiting for someone who wouldn't come. In doing that, I ended the absurdity.

[Warren Stupidity]

172. Right, so when you wrote "we" you certainly didn't mean "we".

Instead this was yet another stern lecture from the right wing of the Democratic Party, informing the left that, as the right wing of the Democratic Party just got its ass handed to it in the midterm elections, it is the left's fault, and the solution is to drag the party even further to the right. Again.

It's fucking boring hearing this stupid message over and over again. The right has been firmly in control of the party since Mondale. The defeat is all yours pal, all yours.

[bravenak]

173. We'd save YOU, if we could.

From what, idk.
I just keep repeating the truth. Liberal policies won, weak liberals lost. Period. The fix is obvious.

[merrily]

178. Did you mean to post this to MM?

[bravenak]

179. MM can save himself.

[merrily]

180. All righty, then.

We have not posted to each other in a while. Nice to see you again.

[bravenak]

181. Nice to see you too.

It's been a rough week.

[merrily]

183. Not as rough as it's going to get next year. It's starting all ready.

Republicans in Congress started acting like the majority as soon as the election was over. 2010 and now, both.

[bravenak]

184. I suspect they will make asses out of themselves real soon.

They cannot help themselves. This two years gives us an opportunity to be on offense. Once we finish licking our wounds, we can fight them on every issue. Time to steel up and sock it to them.

[merrily]

185. The ass making ship sailed years ago. We need to start registering votes come spring.

They killed ACORN, but nothing replaced it. That was a mistake. Meanwhile, Republicans put together a massive voter registration and education network. (The links in that network were the ones claiming the IRS was harassing them. I watched the hearings on C-Span.)

[bravenak]

186. I agree.

We should have multiple orgs working across country to register voters, not just young, but poor. And yes, most if them do have ID and can vote. We do motor voter and many just register there, but some places make it harder.

I think we also need a fifty state strategy of popular proposition and ballot measures, they seem to win and can possibly draw more voters in an election year. If our candidates support them, they can win too.

And we need to get together with activists and find our what concerns the people want our candidates to address. And we have to fight for what they want.

And stop being drug warriors.... Younger people are the ones targeted, might be best if it didn't seem like our candidates were out to get them.

[merrily]

189. Those organizations I mentioned are the RW fifty state strategy--and then some.

Get this: They have NATIONWIDE conference calls EVERY SUNDAY evening. Probably get a reminder in church Sunday morning, too--but I'm only guessing on that bit. They share tips and encourage each other. The goals are to register and educate voters. (Again, I'm guessing, but I am guessing they are not concentrating on the barrios or the hoods when they hit the bricks to register voters.) The other goal is to make sure no one votes who shouldn't. (Again, I'm guessing but I am guessing there's a wink wink in that one somewhere.)

Thing is, the IRS has known this for a long time. And I heard less on CSPan than Democrats in Congress heard. What have the Democrats done to try to counter all the above? Besides bash us, I mean?

[bravenak]

192. Nothing.

Democrats do nothing. And those who want to fight against the bullshit get beat up by the party. I finally understand the plantation talk.

[merrily]

195. The plantation talk I did not understand:

Hillary's comparing being a Democratic Senator in the US Senate while Republicans were in control to being on the plantation.

I've eaten in the US Senate Dining Room. Didn't get that at all. Not even house slaves on the plantation.

I know exactly why she was using that particular comparison, but I thought it was tone deaf, not good politics.

Then again, I didn't get Clarence Thomas comparing hearings for the slot of Supreme Court Justice to a lynching.

Guess I'm just clueless.

[bravenak]

196. I guess I must be clueless too.

Takes me years to understand whats going on.

[merrily]

197. Here's my take:

Politician to English translation

Hillary: "I'm running for President soon. I'm letting the African American voters know that I am one of them because, I'm, like you know, the wife of the "first black President." (Failed miserably and uber awkwardly, but that's beside the point.)

Clarence Thomas: At the dinner break, Poppy Bush's guys told me to say that because it would make the bleeding heart liberal members of the Judiciary Committee STFU fast. They ain't about to try to navigate THAT mine field and risk having Republicans calling them racist.

[bravenak]

198. That's how I see it too.

And I think we might be surprised at the drop in black support if she runs.

[merrily]

199. I'm surprised she gets any, after things like that plantation remark

and the kind of primary she and her husband and her campaign team and surrogates ran against Obama. Time after time in 2008, my jaw dropped.

Cuomo: "shuckin' and jivin'"

Ferrara: The only reason he's where he is is because he's black.(No quotation marks, because it's my recollection, not necessarily her exact words.

Bubba: You know, Jesse Jackson won North Carolina, too.

Bubba (to Kennedy) A couple of years ago, he'd be getting us coffee. You're only backing him because he's black.

Hillary: My constituents are hard-working white people. (So, Hills, what you said about who your voters are was bad enough, but what are you implying about Obama's constituents?)

P.S. All the above is from memory. Words may have been different, but the gist is right. And there may have been more things that shocked me, but I may not be remembering them now. Oh yeah--those pics of young Obama in traditional African costume and the whole "black liberation theology" attack. There may be more.

[bravenak]

200. Those are the exact reasons I do not like her.

Me and my family discuss this all the time, but I try not to say anything here because 'it's divisive!'
When she said that thing about who her constituents were, I wanted to punch her. She ignores any issue that AA's or young people have to deal with. And boy! Does she love her some war!!
Always ready to send young people out to kill and die. And young voters and Blacks are expected to vote for THAT? Over a republican with the EXACT same views? Better to just vote for the races in your state and district and let the party come to you. Right now the party is in the fuck millenials phase and running away from the black man phase, but eventually they will see that it's not pulling in any extra votes to try to change old conservatives into old liberals.

[merrily]

201. Not fer nuttin, but a lot of the real oldies in the Dem Party are hippie liberals and I

love them to bits.

They all seem to find war "necessary." Don't know what to do about that. I am non-violent to an extreme. ""I'd take a bullet" for anyone, but never fire at anyone.

[bravenak]

202. Here it is.

I can't find the original but it's USA Today.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/2008-05-07-clintoninterview_N.htm
Seems to imply that her base is hard working americans, white americans. I suppose she thinks blacks and others don't work. She ignores black people. They are beneath notice.

[merrily]

203. The remark my post referred to was made in 2008 around, IIRC, the

Pennsy primary. This is not the wording I was looking for, but it's something.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/08/clinton-touts-support-from-white-americans/

I like to say that I became a Democrat at age 4 and that is true. However, equal rights was a big part of why I stayed a Democrat when it came time for me to vote (that and unions were very big issues for me).

Every one of things I mentioned in prior post about the way she campaigned in 2008 was like a gut punch for me. I cannot even begin to imagine what each was like for African Americans.

That is indeed one of quite a few reasons that I don't believe the meme that, if nominated, she'll win the general. Also one of many reasons that I hope she is not nominated.

[merrily]

204. Sorry. I have to go.

I enjoyed our discussion. Thank you, bravenak!

[bravenak]

205. Ok, see you around!!

Take care!!

[merrily]

177. +1 And all but in control of the party since McGovern. And, if you want to look at who formed the

DLC, Southern WASP males with Presidential aspirations, with the exception of Hillary and Lieberman, one might say that those types have been struggling for control of the party for a lot longer than McGovern's defeat.

[oldandhappy]

5. We had our monthly Dem Club meeting yesterday.

The speaker reminded us that 24 Repub senators will be running in 2016 -- seven of them in blue or purple states. If you are in a state where one of your senators will be running in 2016, and that person happens to be a Repub, get busy. Get a candidate and get going. Name recognition is vital. Money is vital. Getting out there is vital. And, as we learned, taking credit for the GOOD done in the last two presidential terms is vital. Do not wait for Godot.

[MineralMan]

18. Yes. We can't start too soon.

[riversedge]

31. We have our Dumb sen. ron johnson in WI up for re-election. He

came in with the Teaparty wave.

[oldandhappy]

54. and he can go out -- but will take grease!

[treestar]

65. +1

We can flip it back as the states running this year were in many red states.

[NordicLeft]

170. my way too early 2016 Senate race breakdown

After Alaska and Louisiana, Republicans will probably have 54 seats.


Democrat Senators most at risk in 2016

Colorado Michael Bennet

Nevada Harry Reid

--------------------------------------
Bennet is most vulnerable, followed by Reid.

Let's say neither go down.

Republicans have 54 seats.



Now for Republicans truly at risk.

Illinois Mark Kirk

Pennsylvania Pat Toomey

Wisconsin Ron Johnson


I think all may go down, if Russ Feingold runs against Johnson.

Final result:

Republicans at 51 seats.


The potential Republican losses (all fairly longer shots) are :

Alaska Lisa Murkowski

Florida Marco Rubio

Kentucky Rand Paul (if he is on the presidential ticket and the Republicans nominate a weak candidate, although Paul on the ticket will energise the Republican vote in Kentucky)


Getting 2 of those (and thus control of the Senate) is asking a lot, but Rubio and Murkowski are the 2 most vulnerable. It will come down to who the Democrats vote to run against them. So regaining the Senate is a possibility, although a tonne of things have to break exactly right.

Finally, if Hillary Clinton is the Democrat nominee, the Republicans will be swarming to the polls.

Over/under is 52 Republicans.

Sorry I cannot give better news.

cheers from the EU

[Louisiana1976]

7. Godot is any progressive Democrat who presents a true alternative to the Republicans. Obama

isn't Godot--he's pretty right-wing as Democrats go. And Hillary is to the right of Obama so she's no alternative. I guess Warren and Sanders are the best we have so far unless there's someone waiting in the wings.

[Skidmore]

9. So you are waiting

under the tree. Winter is upon us and the tree is losing its leaves. Godot ...

[MineralMan]

19. You are waiting in the wings. You are Godot.

We are all Godot. Go do something.

[MoonRiver]

23. Hmmm, Warren isn't running and Sanders, the I, Socialist, could never win

in a general election. I love both of them but you have to be just a little bit realistic here.

[morningfog]

8. It is simpler than that. Voters are just living their life, candidates need a message to reach them.

The vast majority of the American populace are politically inactive. They are either too busy trying to live their lives, to make end meet, to survive, or are willfully ignorant or have cynically tuned out of politics.

For better or worse that is the reality. It isn't that there is a progressive club petulantly withholding their vote waiting for "Godot." Look, most eligible Americans don't even vote. The ones who follow politics and are active are voters. THey aren't sitting out in protest.

What we need is candidates who can deliver strong and simple messages. Be they blue dogs, liberals, or democratic socialists, when they know how to campaign and build a coalition through their message, they can win. That is what is lacking. It is not your imaginary group pouting at home on election day. Most of the country didn't vote last Tuesday. They didn't vote because no one reached them with a message that made them think it was important or that it mattered. It isn't their fault that they weren't motivated. It is the candidates' fault.

[MineralMan]

26. It's not about voting. Voting is the final step in a process that begins

right now for 2016. Anyone who simply waits until the election to do anything just gets one vote. There's much else to be doing. 2016 has already started. The work has already begun.

[morningfog]

162. Right. But the election is decide by the collective votes.

You can think that your axiom is more important. And the more you educate and bring along, the better for democracy. But in the end, elections are collective actions where each person has one equal vote to cast. The candidates must convince the eligible voter first to vote and second to vote for them.

There is no "waiting for Godot" mentalities that is silly. There are only unmotivated voters, untapped potential. There is nothing mythical or magically about this. It is basic political science. The candidate had to motivate a win in coalition to go to the polls and vote.

Politically active and aware progressives are not sitting elections out. Your premise is utterly flawed.

[treestar]

67. If they considered politics part of their life

Like adults normally would, they wouldn't be having such a time with making ends meet, as they'd have gotten out and voted for Democrats and many other laws could have passed in the most recent four years.

[RobertEarl]

10. I am surprised at you, man

I kept expecting your missive about how the party executives failed, and I do mean FAILED, to GOTV.

GOTV threads seemed to have been ignored by the elites. Meaning they did not listen. Wasn't it loud enough and clear enough? Why did they FAIL to GOTV? Any ideas?

[MineralMan]

21. The party executives don't do GOTV.

People at the grassroots do GOTV. I'm never talking to the elites on DU. They're not here.

[RobertEarl]

29. Yep

The elites are far too important to take up the cause of GOTV?

We should not bother them with something so unimportant and not making good use of their time?

So what can we do to get the elites to listen to us grassroots peons? Or should we continue to expect to be ignored? And why don't they read DU?

Too many questions, I know, but you seem to have all the answers.... so....

[MineralMan]

32. GOTV is a grassroots effort. It always has been.

It depends on individuals who speak directly to other individuals and convinces them to turn out and cast their vote. The only thing the party leadership can do is to try to organize and encourage those individuals to get out and GOTV.

Why would people in leadership positions read DU? They don't. They won't. If you want to talk to them, you'll find them at meetings of the local committees and other party gatherings. They're there, and they will listen to you. If they don't, you vote their asses out of those leadership positions.

Go to your local Democratic party organization's next meeting. Listen. Find out how it works. Then get involved on a personal basis. You'll be amazed.

[RobertEarl]

35. I have been at many meetings

Frankly, I probably would vote you out of leadership.

This is the divide: You claim the elites should not be bothered by us grassroots folks. Yet they depend on us. That is no way to run a party, but it is your advice on how to have a party. And yeah, I see way too many with your mindset in the party, and look!! We frigging lost!!

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? Insane.

[MineralMan]

39. No, I don't claim that.

I'm saying that the elites don't DO the GOTV work. They facilitate it and encourage it. Unless you're in my precinct and show up at the precinct caucus in February, 2016, you can't vote me out of my precinct chair. That's the only position I hold. I serve as a delegate to several conventions every couple of years, and you can't vote me out of that, either. Delegates are selected by precinct caucuses and at the conventions for the next level of conventions.

I do GOTV. That's my main activity. I also maintain a website for my precinct. That's it as far as official party activities. You can't vote me out of leadership, because I'm not part of DFL party leadership. I'm just another grassroots worker.

[Aerows]

121. Uh, MM, I like you

but RobertEarl is correct. You do exactly that. You would be a blessing to the party if you would stop it.

[bravenak]

34. Don't you think that if the party needs the grassroots to GOTV....

They should listen to the grass roots on what will draw voters to the polls? Because the party message ain't working with regular folks. And it's not bringing new voters to the table. People actually want to know what the candidate will do to IMPROVE their lives, not just tell them how bad republicans are. We get fear of lossed in America all the time. Telling new voters 'We will make sure your lives don't suck MORE', is not incentivizing. And telling the poor how all you care about is the middle class and small business leaves millions of folks out. I never hear anything for the poor. They are the ones we need to get to the polls. Why should they come out for everyone else but themselves on the false hope that they might make it to the middle class and actually matter to the party.

Not to mention, why should Blacks come out in force for a party that supports the drug war that they are the casualties of? Young people are also targets of the drug war, but no one cares, so why should they vote for out of touch drug warriors from the 90's? Those policies hurt them and their peers, and we want them to vote for folks that believe in no knock warrants, phone tapping, mandatory minimums, and basically using them as free labor in the Prison State. I see NO Democrats and ONE republican talking about ending that. Rand Paul. The man who the youth prefer to Democrats.

We need to start moving into the modern age. The drug war is being fought by old people against young people and we as a party support that, but feel like we are owed the youth vote.

I predict that until the party platform and our politicians start listening to everyone, not just who agrees with the, we will continue to lose. And we can blame whoever we want to, but the fact of the matter is, we are out of touch, and following the DC line is not working with the general population.

People came out and voted for progressive policies. They just did not vote for our candidates.

[MineralMan]

42. Well, I'm at the grassroots level. People in the DFL Party organization

here in Minnesota have listened to me. Candidates have listened to me. In my local districts, including our Congressional district, our representatives are all progressives.

[bravenak]

51. In my area, it is red.

Our grassroots got measures on the ballot and they passed with flying colors. Even the republicans voted to raise the minimum wage. We got anti weed prohibition, envorinmental protection, union protection, and minumum wage passed. Our candidate did not supprt all of them, and he lost. I think he lost part of the weed vote. Some people skipped voting for senate and voted for what they wanted. I spoke with people who said the ads for both sounded like republicans, all about fighting Obama. Lost votes there too.
People are learning that they don't need a democrat to get progressive legislation. The people standing outside of stores and canvassing were young to middle age and democrats and independents. Our politicians did not support what won and lost.

[MineralMan]

53. Then those politicians made a bad mistake.

That seems clear. Maybe you can improve on them for the next election. I hope so.

[bravenak]

56. I hope so too.

We should take this loss as a lesson. Progressive policies win! Support them!

[Aerows]

103. Yes, and you would know

You are in AK that is "red" but allows gay marriage and passed resolutions to increase minimum wage and legalize MJ.

But you wouldn't know anything about that, because some "Democratic" political operatives know MUCH MORE than you do.

You aren't nearly as smart as those guys because all of those things that failed the vote in your district or your state.

Oh wait, they didn't!!!

[bravenak]

104. My goodness!! Thank You for listening to me scream into the wind.

There are quite a few people these days who totally get it instantly and i feel like a bully right now, but I got mine, can we get y'all yours? We have insane politicians, but we have some Dems who backed the measures up fully and we at least got rid of the Repug Gov. Every state should get the minimum wage tied to inflation, we should be the ones getting it on the ballots. Nothing better to do anyways. The more places that raise the minimum the more the states that don't raise it want to raise it. Nobody likes to be left behind.

Listening to DC rots brains, I swear. They think thise people are the mainstream. Thise rich people who 'know' things.

[Aerows]

117. [phone] X 1000000

Nail meet hammer head, Brave.

[BrotherIvan]

139. Yes, maybe it's time to focus efforts on ballot initiatives and getting more issues up for a vote

than worrying about creating more professional politicians. Not an either/or proposition, but I too was very excited to see the fact that taken out separately, many liberal issues won. Maybe we can take them back one at a time from the Republican framing. If politicians want to run terrible campaigns, that won't help them. After seeing so many terrible things happen in California, like Prop 8 or the GMO labeling bill get struck down by big money, I didn't really have much hope for separate initiatives. But maybe it's worth a shot.

[bravenak]

144. If it worked up here in Stand your ground land, it can work everywhere.

Once the party sees things getting done without them, maybe they'll want to get on board and put it in the platform.

They fought hard againsts us, but being against weed doesn't win anymore. Or being against minimum wage There is plenty to learn from this.

Btw, still reading that book. I'm just reading like five right now, so it's slow.

[Aerows]

157. All good ideas

Bravenak, you and your state and many states that passed legislation in line with Democratic principles give me hope.

We can get things done without either party.

[bravenak]

160. True!

All we need is enough signatures and some fire in the gut!!!
No more backing down to rightwingers!!
It does not make them like us! Why should we care if they think we are socialists? We are or we should be by now. Jeez.
We need a fifty state strategy of ballot measures and a non profit org to pull donations.

[Aerows]

164. Thank YOU!

I don't give a fuck if wanting health care for all Americans makes me a socialist. I do NOT care if wanting equal rights for myself to marry in my state and be able to travel while having said benefits carry over to another state makes me too liberal. Think about that - people have to coordinate travel plans so that if they get into a wreck in the wrong state they can be there for their wife or husband.

I don't care if kindness tells me that people that can benefit from medical marijuana means that sick people can get a treatment that aids or even cures them and it supposedly harms some person's political career. I care that a person with PTSD can be soothed and healed by a plant. A fucking plant. It's no different than me growing oregano in my backyard.

I think I went off on a tangent, but all of this needs to go up for ballots and fuck the right/left we're in it for the money bullshit of DC.

[bravenak]

167. I think the party better watch out!

I hear what you are saying all the time. The party better move on or get left behind.

[BrotherIvan]

171. I'm the same

I've got about six books going at any one time. I'm reading a section at a time for that one. It gets more interesting as it goes along.

And maybe we can get things going in the right direction from a populist standpoint. People need help, and hopefully they can see that fundamentals such as minimum wage, social security, social safety net, health care, college tuition, etc. will truly benefit them. But TPTB, the churches, and the politicians will fight it all the way. So be it.

[myrna minx]

122. You are one of my favorite posters.

We agree on so much, but I so grateful to have learned so much from you and look forward to learning more from you.

[bravenak]

124. Thank you!

I secretly read you too. You guys have been pulling me in the right direction. At first I felt a little meh, but now I see clearly what the problem is. And it's not us!

[myrna minx]

137. Ha - I'm feeling ornery these days.

I believe the Dems need to frame the debate from the Democratic Keynesian perspective and not exist within the confines of the RW framing of debate. That to me is where we get stuck.

When we work within the framing of the Ayn Randian/ Chicago School of Economics faulty frame - which is where we as a party allow the debate to reside - we will always lose. We have a winning, sound and proven economic policy for economic recovery through Keynesian philosophy, but the Party has chosen to not present it as a viable option - so we allow the limited, failed and unsustainable RW position to limit our debate and subsequently our solutions to the economic turmoil of our dwindling middle class and our growing working and out of work poor.

Our party leaders know the economic differences, yet, time and time again we allow the RW to define the debate and we always come from a defensive position of weakness. This needs to end. Now.

We need to protect and fight for the disenfranchised who have been thrown off of voter rolls in this Neo Jim Crow era, fight voter intimidation, engage those who feel alone and unheard and find a path to citizenship for our Dreamers! These are our paths to Democratic victory, not screaming at voters for being lazy, stupid or not just voting for a "D".

[bravenak]

143. I agree with all of that and more.

It is time for the money men to stop controlling policy. If dems want to win, we have to do it for the people. We have to be populists. Thats all there is to it.

[Aerows]

159. Populism begins with the people

We just need to get more populist measures on the ballots so the people can speak!

[bravenak]

168. Hell yeah!!

And people who BACK UP those policies and fight tooth and nail for them.

[myrna minx]

11. Oh good lord. Please don't abuse Beckett's work in this way. It's embarrassing.

[cali]

13. +1. My first though as well. It is embarassing to see this. I can't help but wonder if the

OP is actually familiar with the work.

[myrna minx]

16. Clearly not. I usually stay out of these self indulgent opines, but when Samuel Beckett is

being contorted into this - "form" - I cannot bite the old Irish tongue.

[deutsey]

57. I agree, but to be fair,

the OP is reminiscent of Garry Trudeau's Doonesbury bit "Waiting for Mario" back in the '80s.



I didn't think it really worked back then, either.

[myrna minx]

58. That's a classic strip - and the strip is satire.

This post is wholly serious and in my opinion, butchering Beckett's nuance and philosophy, but that's just me.

Also - Perhaps Gilles Deleuze and Félix Guattari were writing about *calzones* and not rhizomes.

[deutsey]

68. True...Trudeau's strip did reflect the despair a lot of liberals felt at the time

I like Doonesbury, but I remember not really being impressed with the Waiting for Mario series, though.

Maybe it was because the truth of there being no viable alternative to Reagan was too much for me at the time.

[Octafish]

155. What really happened?

The helicopter was waiting...

Now, his kid, and the kids of all the great Liberal Democrats, run hard right and righter.

[deutsey]

158. I've wondered that, too

My suspicion is Reagan/Bush dug up some dirt on him, but who knows (beyond the players involved)?

[KoKo]

190. There were rumors of that...

Still that speech he gave about job loss and asking steelworkers with their big hardened hands to retrain (after their job losses) to work with computers still resonates. I've messed up the exact quote but that was one of the most incredible speeches of the last half of the 20th Century.

I used to post in here in the early DU Days...but, lost it somewhere in bookmarks when my last computer died.

[MerryBlooms]

85. Tomorrow he'll start an OP

on how wrong you are, sans context.

Super, can't wait.

[SMC22307]

91. He's studying the Wikipedia page now.

[Aerows]

120. He'll redefine the term satire

and then encourage everybody to debate him (when he's proven wrong by the first post).

Sad. Predictable, but sad.

[BrotherIvan]

141. +1000

There is some grave spinning going on.

[Spazito]

12. Well said! n/t

[bahrbearian]

14. Are you telling the DU to "sit down and shut up"

[MineralMan]

22. Of course not. I'm telling DU to get up and get started

and stop waiting for what isn't coming.

[Scootaloo]

27. You're starting with a straw man

That we are "sitting around."

[MineralMan]

28. Am I? Really?

I don't think so.

[Scootaloo]

30. Well, what you think and what really is, are different things.

[Rex]

33. That is a general meme being floated around DU right now.

DUers sat out (ie liberals, I never hear them call out moderates or conservatives) and lost us the election. Never mind DU is important at times and not important at time - depends on what is needed for the current narrative.

[MineralMan]

36. DUers didn't sit out. DUers voted.

DUers aren't enough to win elections. There simply aren't enough of us to have much of an effect. I'm not talking about DUers at all.

[Bluenorthwest]

43. This DUer had nothing but victory. 70% turnout a bit weak, but by and large as elections go

this one went really really well. I dig that the election in Kentucky went like an election in Kentucky, but what's that got to do with liberals or progressives? Nothing. It's a Red State.
We did fine. We are progressive. Not waiting for anyone.....

And frankly, you don't seem to grasp that play all that well.

[MineralMan]

45. Well, we had the same victory here in my corner of

Minnesota, too. In my various state and federal legislative districts, and for Senate, everyone we elected is a progressive voice. Our turnout wasn't 70% this time, but we got the job done. We put the progressives back into their offices.

[Aerows]

129. +1 n/t

[Rex]

46. Maybe not you, but a lot of people have been blaming DUers for this loss

which I find to be highly disingenuous. If the country voted like DU, we would never have to worry about the GOP again imo.

[MineralMan]

47. I'm not blaming DUers for any losses.

I have no doubt that DUers voted for and encouraged others to vote for the best candidates on the ballot. This is a much more general thing I'm talking about.

[Rex]

49. My apologizes then.

I'm sure it must be frustrating living in such a blue state.

[MineralMan]

50. Not all of Minnesota is blue.

We made no progress with our Republican districts. That was disappointing. My own districts are blue and progressive, but not the whole state, by any means. In 2010, we elected Republicans to be in control of both houses of the state legislature. Not by large margins, but all the same...

[Rex]

55. Oh I thought Minn was deep blue.

Could be worse...you could live in Texas and be cringing at the thought of what Abbott will destroy first. My bet is women's rights, education, immigration, in that order.

[myrna minx]

38. Don't worry. Beckett's 'Ohio Impromptu' can be renamed "Ready for Hillary!"

if we're just throwing around Beckett's work without respecting, understanding or caring about it at all.

[Fumesucker]

71. This is why I read DU...

Thanks for the belly laugh..

[Aerows]

93. Amen

That was an over the top dominated by a OMG that's HILARIOUS!!!!

[myrna minx]

140. I love DU for our fellow obscure reference nerds.

[hootinholler]

142. Sadly, I don't know Beckett's works

Did he have any featuring unicorn sparkle rainbow farts?

That's what some have implied that I'm waiting for.

[myrna minx]

145. Beckett's "Happy Days" may be seen as a jaunty sea side sparkly unicorn fun!

[hootinholler]

147. Wow! I'll have to check it out

I love jaunty! Add sparkle and I'm sure to be in rapture.

[myrna minx]

149. I was being humorous and factious, but if you do have an opportunity to see a Beckett play

please do!

[hootinholler]

151. I don't get to the theater often

But I will keep my eyes open for one.

Thanks for playing along

[myrna minx]

152. Well - the OP is to Beckett as John Lennon's "Power to the People" is about fracking.

[Aerows]

161. It was the

glitter-farting ponies that won me over

[myrna minx]

165. If we know anything about Beckett, he was all about the glitter farting ponies!

Pragmatic, neo-liberal glitter farting ponies <--- he specified those. In FACT, I think Beckett was one of the first Bronies. Yep. Why fucking not, since we're on this fantastic voyage.

[Aerows]

166. I love your posts

[myrna minx]

193. This thread is unreal.

it's almost like when Luke Skywalker beamed with pride when he finally got to work with his dad on the deathstar, or when Charles Foster Kane, after winning the Presidency - gave it all up to sail away on his house boat, Rosebud.

[Rex]

169. Sorry it is actually confetti tears from a Griffin-doodle.

Yeah that unicorn stuff was last term.

[morningfog]

163. He's not thought this through, lol.

[brooklynite]

15. But your approach requires effort...

...couldn't we just write another blog post or vote in an online poll?

[myrna minx]

17. Um...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251385809

[Rex]

25. YEP.

[Marr]

41. lol

[WorseBeforeBetter]

48. LOL

[brooklynite]

75. I'm not advocating the vote, just pointing out the data

the likely success of Clinton campaign will be based on the millions who have already pledged to work forhet if she runs.

[MineralMan]

24. Well, you could sign a White House petition, I suppose.

[Aerows]

83. Oh, I'm sorry

Did that offend your privileged 1% self?

Do they speak English in privilege land?

Did your money and contacts do anything for the polls?

Oh. Then join the rest of us and listen for a change.

[KingCharlemagne]

20. More like Lucky to the Republicans' Pozzo (shout out to fans

of Beckett

[Marr]

37. I'm tired of centrist Democrats lecturing the left for being lazy.

I've been volunteering on campaigns since my college days, which are now two decades in the past. In all that time, the number of self-described 'centrists' I've met could be counted on one hand.

The more progressive sorts aren't the ones who need to get up off their butts, at least in my experience.

[Vattel]

80. perfect response. My experience is the same as yours.

[Bluenorthwest]

40. What a painful thing it is to read the misues of Mr Beckett's great work.

Jaysus.

[Autumn]

44. Really?

How sad is this

[Phlem]

61. Take it with a grain of salt with this one.

[deutsey]

52. No, I think Democrats in general are more like something out of

Six Characters in Search of an Author.

This note from a current production of the play sums it up nicely:

An identity crisis for the theater itself, Luigi Pirandello’s 1921 epitome of absurdism is a masterpiece of blurred dramatic lines, brought cleverly to life in this production from director Emmanuel Demarcy-Mota and Théâtre de la Ville, Paris.

A dysfunctional family of six interrupts the rehearsal of a play to make a curious claim: They are characters who’ve been abandoned by their author and are seeking a theater troupe to give them an artful sense of completion. On a spare set, portrayers and portrayed begin to overlap, as fiction and reality follow suit. The result is a beguiling tragedy that turns notions of authorship and agency on their heads while offering humanity critical insight into its own selectively scribed existence.

http://www.bam.org/theater/2014/six-characters-in-search-of-an-author

[Spitfire of ATJ]

59. Yer kidding, right? Dems are convinced Godot has arrived with every election.

[Autumn]

60. I think Progressive Democrats remind me of this young lad

Of course the responses by the sensible adults ( AKA elected Democrats and democrats here ) in this clip are spot on the money

[SoapBox]

62. WTF!

MineralMan...

I get the point!

But apparently, your post has gone off the rails in different directions by folks that are more concerned with "Beckett" and that there is a "straw man" involved.

Snap out of the philosophical coma folks...we got screwed (oh, unless you too are a DINO or Third Way Money Grubber).

A fine example of how possibly fucked we could be...if a new Supreme Court nomination is needed.

[Phlem]

63. Amen.

[myrna minx]

118. Samuel Beckett was an highly esteemed Irish playwright

who's words and ideas and philosophies matter. Those ideas and philosophies are wholly misrepresented by this OP. Over time I learned to avoid the OP's usual self indulgent and passive aggressive lectures to and against "the left", but a completely embarrassing misrepresentation of Beckett cannot go without comment. If this OP had written one of his common stand alone patronizing lectures, I wouldn't have clicked on the post, but This OP decided to mis-represent Beckett and that cannot go un-noticed.

[Chathamization]

146. There often is a lot of hostility towards posts that suggest we do something to make things better.

I can appreciate that many here already are doing something; but that makes the hostility the more confusing. When you're out there knocking on doors or collecting signatures for ballot initiatives, the thing that always seems to be in the shortest supply is manpower. I can't think of a single activist I know who would be hostile to posts advocating that people become more active. And can't really fathom why so many find it offensive.

Obviously, there are many here who are involved locally, but there are also numerous individuals here or view politics as a spectator sport (primaries don't change anything; the "Democratic leadership" picks the Democratic candidates, acting like only senators and governors are on ballots). And posts talking about how awful third way Dems are get a ton of attention, while topics about actually progressive Dems in primaries (where we could actually get progressive candidates) get a handful of responses, if they appear at all. Trying to get people to be more active in getting progressive policy enacted is a good thing.

[treestar]

64. Yeah, quit pretending we can do nothing

But be victims of the "corporatists" etc.

This is a free country and we have freedom of speech.

[NickB79]

66. Screw Godot; I'm waiting for Cthulhu.

[Aerows]

69. I was waiting for someone to make this analogy

and I'm still just as displeased by it as I thought I would be.

[Yo_Mama]

72. So very true.

Before the primaries it's time for the voters to organize on issues. The primaries are very important.

It's also extremely important to lobby the legislators. They need to know what our concerns are.

[Aerows]

76. It's isn't what you do right before the primaries

That was the over-arcing theme. It's what you do DAY IN AND DAY OUT.

My word. That was the over-arcing theme of Waiting for Godot, stop waiting for someone to save you and save your damn self by being a human being, appealing to the human being as a leader, and being a LEADER. If you are a third wayer, it does NOT say what you THINK it says.

I think many of you have totally lost the plot on DU due to the fact that we have rejected corporate Dem candidates, and are trying to make analogies that are about as apt as a school child eating crayons.

[Phlem]

79. Hell yes.

Spot on!

[Aerows]

81. I can't believe this is even ATTEMPTED

to be peddled as intelligent discourse when it completely undermines the theme of the book, and is refuted by the polls, too.

sigh.

[Phlem]

84. it's pretty common with this OP's author.

He's not what he seems. I've had run ins with him and his favorite tact is to silence anything that doesn't play with his reality. Been there, done that.

[Aerows]

87. He's helpful for some things

and I give credit where credit is due. With this post? This post needs to be flushed down the toilet before it stinks up the place and draws flies.

I'm breaking out the Scrubbing Bubbles, because this one is particularly gruesome, stinky and awful.

[Yo_Mama]

90. That's EXACTLY what I meant

As long as a few people are picking the candidates, the dissatisfaction I have seen over and over again on this board with the voting choices will recur.

People have to organize at the local district level, have to get candidates in, have to contact candidates in office, and generally have to throw their weight around long before the primary season. That's the way to get candidates you really want to vote for!!

I consider myself a political dunce, so a few years ago I thought - gee - what lobby is really effective? The gun rights people! And I asked around. And guess what - they have local groups that do exactly this. They keep in touch with their legislators. Before the primaries, they invite anybody running for the nomination in their district to drop by to their groups and state their positions. It's effective!

We need much, much stronger ongoing voter interaction with both the legislators in office and the prospective candidates to develop a political base that will produce the candidates we want to vote for. And it has to be at district level. It has to be pretty much continuous. We need ground-level action at the community level.

[Phlem]

99. "It has to be pretty much continuous."

this is THE truth. Power and greed don't rest, neither can we.

[Yo_Mama]

107. And I took it that the OP was urging this. We can't just sit around and wait.

If we want a transformational candidate, the best way to get that candidate is to get moving early next year. Organize. Contact. Hold meetings, etc. And most of all, talk to people. Other people.

[Aerows]

112. Okay

I appreciate your optimism and that is exactly what we should do.

[Phlem]

77. that doesn't work with the third way.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/bigpicture/third-way-no-way

[Phlem]

74. Fail.

I don't think we aren't waiting for anything. We've figured out the main issue, "trying to be like the other guy". It seems to me we're moving on with "don't believe the absolute bullshit from the 3rd way."

Which I do believe you promote.



I'm with Howard Dean. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014940406

[Cleita]

78. And many of us are looking for some honesty and common sense. eom

[Aerows]

82. Apparently

this isn't the thread to find it in. What's worse, is this is a person that works with the Democratic party. My God.

[bravenak]

86. My Godot!

They can't hear us while we're screaming. We should just be quiet and vote their way, then they'll listen.

[Aerows]

88. bravenak

You kick ass

You are right with me on this one.

[bravenak]

97. You do too!!

I feel like i'm on a bad acid trip today!

[Aerows]

96. I have to laugh

Almost all of the people that recced this thread were on my ignore list because they are intractable republican D-Pretend-to-be's

That's why they are on ignore in the first place.

[bravenak]

98. Too funny.

I never look at the list. I rec everything too, things I hate and things I like. Sometimes just because the discussion is so cray cray, I want people to look and see.

[Aerows]

110. If you want cray cray

this is, obviously the thread to see it in LOL

[bravenak]

115. No shit!

The circular logic is giving me the spins.
Vote for us, they suck worse!
Vote for us! We're not REALLY democrats!
Vote for us, then we'll give you a reason to vote for us.
We won't change unless you vote for us.
It's your fault we lost. You didn't vote for us.
You selfish lazy non voters wanting your stuff on the agenda made us lose.
You vote for the stuff you wanted but not for us.
It's not us (the party)it's you (the voter).

[Aerows]

123. It's like a souflee

made of shit with just enough bacon and cheese to make it smell good until you take a look before you bite into it.

Then other people around you berating you because you wouldn't "try a little".

Everybody else, though won't touch the shit, because they know what it is, just like you do.

[bravenak]

125. Oh my God!!

You are so right! And when you tell them 'It's SHIT!!' They get mad that you don't like their cooking. LOL!! And blame you when nobody else comes to dinner.

[Aerows]

128. You got me right away

"You are the reason no one came to dinner! You pointed out the feces that would be on their plates! How dare you!"

[SMC22307]

89. Isn't this a person who...

was a former Freeper who didn't think gays should be allowed to adopt children? Then weaseled out of it because of "bad information"? I take nothing he says seriously and am truly amazed at the number of DUers who cheer him on.

Thanks to you and myrna above, I just added the play to my library list!

[Aerows]

95. Conservative Dems

And all that.

I've had it when the words of a literary work are twisted because someone can't understand them.

[Fumesucker]

105. Even worse is when those words are twisted because they do understand them

[SixString]

100. Nailed it.

[Yo_Mama]

92. Yeah, well we'd better be pretty active participants in the next two years.

I think we got a wake-up call. It's time to get moving.

[Cryptoad]

102. I would bet 40 acres of black bottom land that,,,

those who refuse to stop sitting under the tree are Papa Paul Moles!

[Aerows]

106. There's some nice imagery

"Agree with third way Dems or you don't like the 40 acres and a mule program".

Fuck, dude, just stop.

[stevenleser]

94. More like waiting for guffman. nt

[Aerows]

111. If you view politics

as pure theater.

[Cleita]

131. I'm sick of this Game of Thrones bull shit in Washington politics.

They are messing with innocent lives with their endless wars and attempts to take health care and food from the vulnerable just to one up the opposition. I wish there were laws to prosecute those who use these tactics because what they do is immoral and should be considered criminal.

[Aerows]

134. I'm sick of it, too, Cleita

It's insanity, brutality and criminality.

[jtuck004]

101. Absolutely spot on. They should join with like-minded people and build support for what they want.

Probably a few are, I would guess.

[UglyGreed]

108. Some are comfortable

with the status quo while others continue to suffer. I rather have hope for true change instead of continuing on the path we are on.

[Odin2005]

109. Nice strawman you got, there.

I bet you think we want unicorns who shit rainbows, too?

[JoePhilly]

113. There is a reason the GOP claimed the left saw Obama as a Messiah.

I used to think that the GOP invented that line of argument.

The fact is that some on the left DID see him that way.

And the minute he turned out to not be the Messiah ... they turned on him and have been searching for the replacement Messiah ever since.

If Warren or Sanders ever became President, they'd end up under the "not pure enough" bus just as fast.

[DinahMoeHum]

114. Yep, also known as the Nothing-For-The-Best-For-The-Oppressed syndrome

[Phlem]

119. probably just as fast as Obama threw the left under the bus on Fox News.

[JoePhilly]

126. Well, he does hate America.

[Phlem]

130. whatever you say.

[myrna minx]

153. Wow -I believe this post actually defines the straw-man argument. Actual Textbook.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html


Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Examples of Straw Man

Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

"Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."


Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

[hack89]

116. Well said. Nt

[cprise]

127. Many Voters Say, Get Bent

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025793554

The electorate may be deluded that they are merely opting out by not voting at all, instead of really saying 'either one is fine'... but most non-Republicans simply don't identify with the Democratic Party anymore. They'll turn out for a rockstar presidential candidate, esp. if s/he has some progressive credibility, but even getting there is a nasty process and leaves a rift.

Hillary Clinton is a purveyor of that nastiness, BTW.

[rug]

132. "Let us not waste our time in idle discourse! (Pause. Vehemently.)

Let us do something, while we have the chance! It is not every day that we are needed. But at this place, at this moment of time, all mankind is us, whether we like it or not. Let us make the most of it, before it is too late!" - Vladimir, Act Two

If you saw Godot walking down the street, you'd start a post why we shouldn't go out to meet him.

[bravenak]

133. I guess you are pretty funny.

[Aerows]

135. "If you saw Godot walking down the street, you'd start a post why we shouldn't go out to meet him."

rug, you hit that one out of the park.

Absolutely you did.

[KG]

136. ahh, the daily dose of condescension...

[Aerows]

138. MM, people want MORE progressive Democrats

You aren't going to win the party with LESS progressive Democrats.

Progressive isn't a dirty word. "Moderate Democrat" that substitutes for "Republican"? That's a dirty word.

Head back to the Republican party if the REAL Democratic party doesn't suit you - I speak to everyone. We need populism, we need forceful advocation for Social Security, and we need push back to raise corporate taxes.

[randome]

148. If Godot ever DOES arrive in this climate, he/she is liable to be a demagague.

A cultist instead of a leader. If the 'populism' is all that substantial, where are they? Posting on message boards like this? Protesting in the streets?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[sendero]

150. Not really..

.. I gave up on the Democratic party years ago. To think after all of this they are going to do anything real is laughable.

This looks like the 30s all over again. A depression caused by out of control businessmen and bankers, with a Republican douchebag making it worse until a hero Democrat came along. And our hero Democrat of choice couldn't even be bothered to hold a single bankster to account, so the voters said "fuck it".

When we hit our real rock bottom, and it could be one year or 10 years away, we'll get real change because people with nothing to lose get real engaged. It is coming, a little slower with Dems at the helm, a lot faster with a Republican.

So here's to hitting rock bottom. The ONLY thing that is going to wake Americans the fuck up.

[flamingdem]

154. Bernie and Elizabeth try to explain

they aren't going to run into a wall for the sake of progressive ideals.

They can however influence things and can in turn be influenced.

[Zorra]

174. We are all leaders, and we can lead by engaging in a mass general strike/boycott ASAP. nt

[MineralMan]

176. If that actually happened, it might have an effect.

I've seen a general strike/boycott called for many times. So far, nothing like is has occurred. Good luck with making such a thing happen.

[Zorra]

188. Thanks. "There are all too many people who, in some great period of social change,

fail to achieve the new mental outlooks that the new situation demands. There is nothing more tragic than to sleep through a revolution." ~ Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

I don't have to do anything. What will be, will be. Timing is everything. Right now I am trying to convince Senator Sanders to run.

I'll support the most progressive candidate who runs, and when the 1% and their wealth and their MSM propaganda machine ensures that most progressive Democrat is defeated, or removed from the nomination process somehow, I'll vote for the Democratic presidential candidate that the 1% has chosen for us.

As more people wake up and recognize that our futile, broken political process will continue to do little or nothing to improve their lives, things will get continue to decay and decline for the 99% to the point that people will be forced to find the courage to stand up for themselves, and their children, and simply won't take it anymore.

One thing is inevitable in two party politics: No matter which party is in power, wealthy businessmen will take whatever they want, whenever they want.

[JCMach1]

175. Dems still need to get over white knight syndrome and get some dog catchers

elected...

[LWolf]

182. I quit waiting for Godot

a couple of decades ago.

I knew there were Godots out there. I also knew that the party machine would never allow them to rise.

It's an effective strategy, to be sure. Convince the rank and file that they just have to work hard enough to promote a decent candidate, and maybe we could actually put one on the ballot in the GE.

That keeps all those disenfranchised party members within the fold, expending all their energy and resources for candidates that aren't going to happen, and leaving them stuck with the ultimate non-choice in November.

It works over and over and over and over and over.

It's an effective strategy for containing the disenfranchised.

[Chathamization]

187. There have been good progressive candidates in many primaries who would have won if even 6-10% of

Democrats bothered to show up and support them. Not being able to get even a tiny fraction of the Democratic party to show up and vote for progressives candidates is our main problem. It's silly for progressives to stay at home, and expect centrist Democrats to do all the work to push a centrist agenda (and then act outraged when centrists act like centrists).

[GeorgeGist]

191. Really great way to drum up support ...

is to mock potential supporters.

[MineralMan]

194. I'm not trying to drum up support. I'm trying to drum up

some action. And I'm mocking nobody.