Fourth grade boys list things they don't like about being a boy...

[TeeYiYi]

Last edited Wed Nov 19, 2014, 11:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Heartbreaking, really.

In honor of International Men's Day, this picture serves as a grim reminder that boys are often pressured to succumb to gendered expectations. Last year, a group of fourth grade boys was asked to list what they don't like about being male, and the sad results were projected in the classroom. http://www.popsugar.com/moms/9-Year-Olds-List-What-Dont-Like-About-Being-Boys-36139890

TYY

On edit: Changed the title for cyberswede. See post #47.

[dilby]

1. Why would you even ask someone that question?

Worst question ever and in poor taste as well.

[msongs]

2. male bashing starts at an early age nt

[bettyellen]

8. nonsense- we did the same exercise as kids 30 + years ago. Examining outdated gender roles and

stereotypes is how you actually begin to let them go.

[Orrex]

41. Interesting that you'd cite a technique that's 30+ years old...

as a means to let go of outdated thinking.

Not saying you're wrong, because I agree that it's important and enriching to examine such expectations at an early age, but I can't help noticing the juxtaposition.

[bettyellen]

52. Free to be You and Me was groundbreaking back 40 years ago (or more). Same exact idea.

Not sure why anyone is saying these boys are full of self loathing- they are not YET hairy, smelly, trying to conceive kids- they are exploring fears of what is EXPECTED of them, not what they are. The anger here is - to be kind- misplaced.

[Orrex]

58. Well, the list includes societal pressures as well as biological ones

Since the latter are more or less inherent (hairy, smell bad, etc.), I can see how encouraging the boys to list them can be seen as pressure toward self-loathing.

In contrast, the other traits (not supposed to cry, supposed to like violence) show an awareness of societally-imposed expectation, and IMO this awareness can only be positive.

[bettyellen]

61. LOL, girls have 100X the hair pressure, and smelling- is a choice for all but a few. Men CAN be Moms

and I think it is great someone rids these kids that anything on that list is "inevitable". Discussing their fears of the future is empowering.

[Orrex]

64. I said nothing to diminish girls' experiences

Last edited Thu Nov 20, 2014, 10:31 AM - Edit history (1)

But that's exactly what you're doing with these boys' anxieties--diminishing them. You've suggested that their fears are, in the end, nothing to be afraid of, which is simply an offhand dismissal. This would, I suspect, discourage them from opening up about their anxieties, if they know the answer is going to be "girls have it worse." I know that such a dismissal would have shut me up at that age, and I don't think that I'm unique in this regard.

[div]Discussing their fears of the future is empowering. Yes, and respecting their fears on their own terms is the first step toward discussing them.

[bettyellen]

66. LOL, nope. this is all about dismantaling the damaging ideas they have, so THEY can dismiss them.

All this BS about not discussing sexist ideas is nonsense. It's a very healthy thing to do, but you go latch onto the hair thing, let it be your strawman. I just pointed it out to show it was NOT about self loathing, because they little kids are not hairy for fuck sake.
Is a little introspection on gender roles so frightening to some here that they actually think it's abusive? Doubtful, but if true- sad.

[Orrex]

71. It's not a straw man, obviously.

You wrote

LOL, girls have 100X the hair pressure,

That is an explicitly mocking dismissal of these boys' explicitly stated anxieties. If you disagree, then please explain how it's not a dismissal. Explain how it's an empathic, empowering statement of support and an invitation to further discussion.

All this BS about not discussing sexist ideas is nonsense. It's a very healthy thing to do, but you go latch onto the hair thing, let it be your straw man.

Well, since the boys put it on the list, then referring to it is hardly a straw man.

The straw man is your implication that I've said that sexist ideas shouldn't be discussed. Since that's not my argument, I have no reason to defend it or even respond to it. I suggest that you address your objection to someone who holds that view.

I just pointed it out to show it was NOT about self loathing, because they little kids are not hairy for fuck sake.

Well no shit. Here you are further dismissing their anxieties, trivializing them because they haven't yet manifested.

If a fourth-grade girl said "I'm worried about getting my period," would you say "LOL, nope. Little kids don't have periods, for fuck sake," or would you offer something more constructive?

And, lest you mistake it, that's not a straw man, because I'm not falsely attributing an argument to you. Instead, I'm asking a question.

[bettyellen]

74. it is a strawman, because hair is not inevitable, nor is smelling, loving football or ANYTHING on

that list, despite your claim to the contrary.

I can smile at the kids anxieties and giggle about them- because I had had the same years ago, and am not in the room with them.
See how that works? No children were harmed in this discussion.

No kids are harmed by discussing their anxieties about gender expectations. But several people in this thread are angry because they CLING to the those same expectations. That is the lesson here.

[Orrex]

78. But that's the kids' fear, regardless of how reality might turn out.

And because it's their fear, and because I'm addressing it on their terms, it is not a straw man. Why do you insist on discussing their fears on your terms? Are you trying to work through something?

Your response, yet again, is dismissive.

I can smile at the kids anxieties and giggle about them- because I had had the same years ago, and am not in the room with them.
See how that works? No children were harmed in this discussion.

But you feel free to pass judgment on others who respond differently to the experiment, even though their responses haven't harmed children, either.

Why do you enjoy this position of authority, while others are dismissed as afraid of introspection, insecure and unable to understand?

But several people in this thread are angry because they CLING to the those same expectations.

Please support that claim. What makes you think that it's anger? What makes you think that you can identify the source of that anger? How do you not see that as presumptuous?

[bettyellen]

82. you missed all the anger @ this down there? I don't know how you could, because it is there.

"are you trying to work through something" <-- LOL. You're not as good as baiting people as you think.
Done with you, as it's gotten too childish.

[Orrex]

84. Yet another dismissal.

You're not as good as baiting people as you think.

Interesting that you would offer that deflection in your 6th response to me.

Done with you, as it's gotten too childish.

You might perceive that as a real zinger, but since you haven't demonstrated your point nor refuted mine, it simply comes across as desperate.

I am happy to end the discussion there.

[bettyellen]

142. LOL, it is good to know someone here remembers that! You'd think no one ever discussed these things

since they are likening it to torture and abuse! Who knew Marlo Thomas and PBS were actually child abusers.

[Warren DeMontague]

150. Marlo Thomas was definitely not a child abuser.

Sid and Marty Krofft, on the other hand...

[MNBrewer]

156. If you think the issues of living up to "Maleness!" have gone away in the last 40 years...

you're wrong.

[Orrex]

158. I agree.

Fortunately, no one here has made that assertion nor anything like it.

[TeeYiYi]

3. There has to be more to this story...

Last edited Wed Nov 19, 2014, 10:05 PM - Edit history (1)

Maybe they were exploring gender expectations with both males and females in the class. Hopefully they also created a list of the things they like.

TYY

Edited to add: See post #15 for the actual story. There were no female kids involved.

[dilby]

7. no one should ever be asked about what they don't like about

Something they have no control over. It implies there is something wrong with them to begin with.

[bettyellen]

9. kids should examinine wrong ideas about what it means to be male in our culture. they already HAVE

these screwed up ideas n their head. No one is bashing them but themselves, and the idea is to express those thoughts and discard notions that can limit a person.
Jeeze, LOL. Except for squeezing out a baby, they have control over all of it. Even the hair and smell parts!

[bhikkhu]

100. Kids are filled with likes and dislikes, and under large pressure to conform

to peer pressure and cultural norms. It comes from their peers, from their families, from media, and perhaps from genetic programming as well. Never asking means never talking, or stigmatizing discussion and thought. Not being willing to have the discussion implies that there is something wrong with them, that should never be talked about.

Even (or especially) when kids are young, open discussion is the best way to build understanding. A habit of self examination should begin when young, and I hope I've managed to teach my kids a bit of that.

[bettyellen]

107. "stigmatizing discussion and thought" exactly right.

amazing some of the same people angry at the OP are insisting there is something "more or less" inherent or inevitable any of these kids fears coming true. What a sad and narrow pint of view. I applaud these educators for eradicating the pressures on these kids to conform.

[RobinA]

139. I Don't Get

your point. Why can't we ask people what they don't like about what they have no control over? The least they will probably learn is that they aren't alone in their dislikes. They KNOW what they don't like, why keep it a secret.

I'm a middle-aged female and if you ask me what I don't like about being a female the first thing I'm going to say is the long line at the ladies room at a Springsteen concert. I've been known to say I want to be a guy for a day so I can experience life without this bathroom hassle. It doesn't mean I hate being a female, it doesn't mean I wish I were a guy, it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with being a female. It just means I've been waiting in line to pee for 30+ years now and it's getting on my nerves!!!!

For kids, it's often fairly freeing to know that they aren't the only ones who have the feelings they do.

[TeeYiYi]

108. Well...

...

But seriously, thank you for your response. I found it to be a sincere examination of how you would have responded to gender expectations and stereotypes when you were a kid, as compared to how your son did in fact respond.

I believe we would all have contributed to a discussion like this in different ways, based on differing criteria surrounding who we are as people and not just binary gender stereotypes.

Did you have a chance to check out the original source material behind the image in the OP? A link was provided by justiceischeap in post #15, but I'll include it for you below:

What I Like and Don’t Like About Being a Boy: Thoughts from a group of Grade 4 Boys.
http://higherunlearning.com/2013/10/05/what-i-like-and-dont-like-about-being-a-boy-thoughts-from-a-group-of-grade-4-boys/

Understanding Boys, Understanding Girls.
http://higherunlearning.com/2012/05/02/understanding-boys-understanding-girls/

I highly recommend you explore the links to the history behind the image in my OP. It's the actual story and I appreciate justiceischeap for finding and posting it.

Sorry the image was so difficult for you to see. Here's the original from the first link above.



You may already know this, but opening your browser window to full screen size and then using Control Plus or Minus to size up or down. Command+ (Mac) or Control+ (Windows) will increase the size of both images and text in your browser. Use the minus to reduce it back down. (Command- or Control-)

Anyway, thanks again for your post. It was interesting to see how you responded, line by line, compared to how I might have responded.

TYY

[freshwest]

116. TY. Command + still only increases text and not images on my Mac. It never did and didn't now.

And I went against gender roles when I was a kid. I had to make my own path, I was unable to fit those patterns.

[TeeYiYi]

122. Is your browser window...

...as wide as it will go? It will only increase images to a point, based on the width of the browser window. That's why you'll want to make the window as wide as your screen will allow.

You may have guessed that I didn't conform to expected binary gender roles either.

TYY

Edit to add: One more thing... If you change your preferred browser view to Classic under My Account, you'll have more room to increase images sizes, because it removes the menu from the left side and expands to fill the entire width of the browser window.

[freshwest]

124. Nope, it didn't do it that way either. I'm finding more and more I can't do. I'll see if the GOP

spills our blood next year before I upgrade. I'm holding on tight here.

I understand where you're coming from on gender. It's why I don't post much at HOF although I Rec a lot there.

Maybe I don't have a feel for things on the visceral level some do, or my path has kept me removed from what they talk about at time.

But I won't put up with anyone or thing being abused. We are all equal, or we can never get things done.

[TeeYiYi]

129. I edited that last post...

Last edited Thu Nov 20, 2014, 04:20 AM - Edit history (1)

...but here's what I added:

One more thing... If you change your preferred browser view to Classic under My Account, you'll have more room to increase images sizes, because it removes the menu from the left side and expands to fill the entire width of the browser window.

What browser are you using? I use Firefox. It should be working. You shouldn't need to upgrade to have the zoom function work for you on a Mac. I really hope it starts working for you... Also, Command 0 (zero) returns it to 100%. Keep trying. It should work.

TYY

Edit to add: Be sure to change your 'Preferred format for regular web browsers' under My Account to Classic view. I think it will make a difference for you.

[alphafemale]

5. Agree. The one that posed that question to a child is a total ass

Awful.

[bhikkhu]

49. If you don't ask, you never know

I'd guess there's more to the story. Were they also asked what they liked about being boys? Were girls asked what they did and didn't like about being girls? Its a great way to get into the cultural norms projected onto the kids, at an age where you can have a real conversation and make a difference.

[dilby]

114. it's a do you still beat your dog question. n/t

[cyberswede]

119. No it isn't. There's no shame in discussing these issues.

Discussing concerns is constructive.

Christ - everyone likes and dislikes different aspects of their existence. That doesn't mean we don't want to exist, and it doesn't mean we should be afraid or ashamed to discuss the aspects we don't like.

[bettyellen]

6. to explore gender expectations- it is great they have them questioning these silly notions-

like men do "all the work" and "like violence"- those are both very damaging ideas.

[dilby]

17. you can explore that by asking what does it mean to be a boy.

You would never ask someone what they don't like about being black, gay, transgendered or a girl. These are all attributes that can't be changed, it's not like asking someone what they dislike about being a teacher, plumber or president.

[bettyellen]

18. Nonsense, we did - we did-the same exercise as young girls. Kids already have these weird feelings

about the expectations society puts on them, it is great to explore and discuss.
The point is flying over our head- anatomy is NOT destiny- no boy should feel they cannot raise a child, or be hairy or smelly or violent if they feel it is not for them.

If you merely asked what it means to be a boy you'd get generic insignificant answers that the kids do not care about nearly as much as you do when you ask what bothers them.

The message is not "boys are bad" at all. That is just ridiculous. The message is that you do not have to be anything you do not want to be.
POC and transgendered people also have these same conversations about what sucks about society's ideas of them- and that is a good thing.

[dilby]

21. and that was wrong to ask you then.

I would even say it was abuse, young girls already have negative opinions of themselves and to ask them to focus on what they think as negative is messed up. Might as well just have the girls look at fashion magazines and say that is all you are supposed to amount to in life. Because in my opinion it's the same abuse.

[bettyellen]

22. Not at all- it was very empowering to rid ourselves of destructive myths.

It was great to hear loads of other girls wanted careers and did not want to cook or clean. It was the most awesome thing at that age to know other kids felt different too. The complete opposite of anything in a magazine, because you are exploring your own fears and desires.

LOL at abuse. How in the world do you confront that kind of bullshit, other than calling it what it is.

[dilby]

28. how did that even work?

Question: What do you not like about being a girl?

Answer: I don't want to cook or clean.

Answer: I want a career.

Those don't even make sense and makes me suspect you were not even asked that question in that way. Your answers are more in line with what do you want as a girl, which is very positive. To ask someone what they don't like about themselves is negative and abuse.

[bettyellen]

29. Again- it is not what they do not like about THEMSELVES. It is about the IDEAS of what a boy is....

If you can't grasp the huge difference in those two things, then all of this will continue to fly over your head. Funny, that I could understand the distinction when I was 8, and it is still lost on you!
:ROFL:

[dilby]

33. they wrote.

"WHAT I DON'T LIKE ABOUT BEING A BOY."

That is not an idea, that is what they don't like about something they can't change and should never be viewed as a negative. You have issues if you think that is ok because then you would have no problem with someone being asked what they don't like about being black.

[bettyellen]

36. "being a boy" - everything they listed were stupid stereotypes of what they hear a "boy is"

and they go on to explore those and explode them.

Do people on this thread think that these boys should actually keep these idiot notions- that they must love football and be too embarrassed to cry or raise a kid? Seriously? THAT is abusive.

[dilby]

39. What do you not like about being black?

Is that question ok?

[bettyellen]

45. LOL, among a peer group- it is a fine question to explore. Cannot believe you think these little

boys are discussing hating themselves when they are CLEARLY talking about their fears for their future.


Hint: None of these kids are currently hairy or trying to conceive babies. DERP.

[dilby]

77. sorry need to put you on ignore.

Your ignorance is troubling.

[bettyellen]

89. Please do- and spare us the personal insults.

If that is all you got, you are not worthy of my time.

[cyberswede]

59. Of course it's an ok question to ask.

Maybe some similar answers would be:

"I don't like being profiled" or "I don't like being followed through stores" or "I hate that people cross to the other side when my friends and I are walking down the street."

That doesn't mean a black person doesn't want to be black. Rather, responses like those highlight problems in our culture (that could and should be corrected) - not unlike gender stereotypes.

[bettyellen]

62. who knew a little introspection was so damned threatening- and easily misunderstood, LOL!

I am totally cracking up at some of the hair on fire in this thread. Unintentionally hilarious.

[Orrex]

75. That's intellectually dishonest.

You are assigning emotional responses to people according to your own inference and whim. It's a classic dismissive tactic serving to undercut an opponent's argument.

It is of exactly the same species as dismissing someone for being "defensive" or "outraged" or for "taking it personally." The tendency is to steer the argument away from the discussion at hand and turn it toward a futile debate about whether or not the accused is indeed "defensive."

It's also nearly identical to dismissing a woman's opinion because "she's too emotional." The only difference is that the latter accusation is clearly the assertion of an asshole, while the slightly more subtle accusations are somehow seen as fair game.


Demonstrate that the objections articulated here are motivated by fear or failure to understand. Since you've made the accusations, it's your responsibility to support them.

[bettyellen]

79. you seem to think I was talking about you? I was not. As much as you seem to need to find bone to

pick, I see you grasp the basic concept of ridding these kids of some very limiting ideas of what it means to be a boy/man, and agree it is a good thing. We are really only quibbling about the "inevitability of hair" at this point.

If you scan the thread, you will find others who cannot wrap their heads around the concept at all, and claim to believe the whole exercise was abusive. That is what I was speaking of. Apology accepted.

[Orrex]

81. It's still an intellectually dishonest tactic, whether or not you're addressing me.

We are really only quibbling about the "inevitability of hair" at this point.

Who's "we" in that context? You are quibbling about the inevitability of hair, while I am arguing against the casual dismissal of these children's anxieties.

[bettyellen]

92. bullshit, you argued that hair and other things were biologically inevitable, and I laughed at THAT

get thee to the 21st century, where none of what those kids listed concerns about are set in stone.
ANd that is what the whole exercise was about- but it went *whoosh* over many heads.

I guess misery loves company. See ya!

[Orrex]

96. Well, that's simply a lie.

In reply #58, I wrote

Since the latter are more or less inherent (hairy, smell bad, etc.)

"More or less inherent." Not inevitable. More or less inherent, as in "a general function of their biology." You deliberately misquoted me in order to prop up your own feeble prattling. Or, if it wasn't deliberate, then it was a gross failure of comprehension.

And you think that the discussion is going over other people's heads? Whoosh.

[bettyellen]

97. Bullshit- inherant: existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

You argued that it was hurting boys because they are "more or less" stuck being these things. WRONG.

Interesting quote from this to leave you with: " In all respects, it is all about being a winner for boys, sometimes at all costs. "

And that has very sad consequences. Except now, when it's pretty fucking funny!

[Orrex]

99. Please tell me you're kidding.

inerant: existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute.

Not "inerant (sic)." Inherent. As in belonging to the basic nature of someone or something. Are you seriously not familiar with the word "inherent?" And you presume to lecture others on their failure to understand? That's beyond preposterous.

You argued that it was hurting boys because they are "more or less" stuck being these things. WRONG.

No, I argued that dismissing their fears is no way to encourage them to discuss them, and it trivializes those fears. You have dismissed and trivialized them from your first (and only semi-sensible) post in this thread, and you've continued in each and every post since then.

Interesting quote from this to leave you with: " In all respects, it is all about being a winner for boys, sometimes at all costs. "

I don't endorse that view, nor does it have anything to do with anything I've written here, so I have no need to respond to it.

Now that you've clearly demonstrated your ignorance and your inability to formulate an argument, it has become necessary for me to put you on Ignore. You'll probably interpret that as some sort of victory. More's the pity.

[bettyellen]

69. there is nothing new or scary about these discussions, LOL.

have a good number of people here been under a rock or something- these conversations have been happening for years!

[LittleBlue]

11. Agreed

I hope those boys have good fathers who will reverse whatever damage this so-called educator inflicted. The boys in this class will think inevitable biological processes are somehow bad. Young boys don't know about these things, they'll fear their own biological changes. It will screw them up.

[bettyellen]

37. I hope they have Dads who teach them they can be "Moms" and hate football, if that is....

what they want. Being smelly and hairy are choices we ALL make, men and women, not inevitabilities. LOL.

[FrodosPet]

160. Is it OK if they DO like football?

Is this all about tearing down stereotypes and bigotry, or is it about emasculation?

In a world full of challenges, mass pacification is not the great answer that many people who want it quiet and calm and nice all the time believe it to be.

[bettyellen]

163. yup, that would be why I said CAN, not must. LOL. Emasculating to love and care for a baby? Hope

you are kidding.
And mass pacification- what the fuck is that? Feeling free to not watch football if you don't like it? Ha ha. So subversive!

[Recursion]

135. The converse question was an element of the MMPI for years

Females taking the MMPI were asked what they disliked about being a female.

Failure to identify the "right" "problems" with being female counted as a sign of mental illness.

[bettyellen]

4. "suppost to like violence" - heartbreaking!

[GummyBearz]

50. hmm..

I hate to be the cynical jerk.. but that response sounds extremely coached for some reason

[Art_from_Ark]

80. When I was in 4th grade, there was some sort of national campaign against violence in cartoons

I WASN'T supposed to like violence! That is why I liked Space Ghost, but none of the "serious" superhero cartoons that came after that.

[KamaAina]

10. International Men's Day?

Aren't there 365 of those a year?

[LostInAnomie]

12. I don't believe it.

Unless they were given some serious prompting, there's no way 4th grade boys are going to want to be a mother/cheerleader, say they are supposed to like violence, or that they smell bad.

Looks like BS to me.

[TeeYiYi]

16. I suspect...

...it was a coed exercise and all of the kids were contributing answers while one of the kids wrote the answers down. I would imagine they explored the good and the bad for both males and females.

It was probably a teaching opportunity to help boys and girls better understand and appreciate each other.

TYY

On edit: I'm completely wrong in my imagined scenario. See post #15.

[bettyellen]

34. I totally believe it. half my friends are teachers. at that age, they are wild cards compared to

how they close off just before puberty. it's pretty awesome.

[LostInAnomie]

38. I was a teacher of that age group.

Those are not the kind of answers you are going to get from a 4th grader without a lot of prompting. This smacks of response bias.

[bettyellen]

40. wow, I guess i have met a lot more aware and verbal kids than you....

I hear silly sterotypes like this from 5-7 year olds all the time. You have to hope they are rid of them by the time they hit 11-12, and you do what you can to help them with that.
AM I the only one who remembers Free to be You and Me? Same idea.

[LostInAnomie]

51. You can get a kid to say just about anything you want...

... with enough prompting and indication that certain answers will please you. Kids pick up on physical and emotional cues easily. I'm guessing after a visit from the White Ribbon Campaign, a video of gender swapping commercials, and leading questions, it didn't take long for these kids to figure out what this guy wanted to hear.

[bettyellen]

54. are you suggesting somehow these kids like all the stereotypes and they lied about it?

interesting.

[LostInAnomie]

63. I doubt that these answers weren't solicited...

... through leading questions. Nor, do I think this list is representative of what 4th graders think about being a boy.

This guy has an agenda. It looks like he essentially push polled a group of boys into giving him the answers he wanted and then cherry picked the ones that best represented his world view/would make the best presentation.

Would you trust a list made by an MRA group if they asked girls what they disliked about being a girl?

[bettyellen]

67. are you saying this guy hates boys and wanted them to hate themselves too? LOL. No.

otherwise the MRA analogy doesn't even make sense.

Just wow at the fear of exploring gender roles. Sad for quite a few of the reactions here.

[LostInAnomie]

95. Yeah, because modern feminism is pure as the driven snow.

This reads like a list of "negative stereotypes about men and things they should feel insecure about" put together by a first year gender studies student.

It's sad that you approve of this crap.

[bettyellen]

102. have fun wandering off on a bizarre tangent @ hating on feminsim!

LOL, these angry responses are cracking me up. No one actually read about the program, that much is clear.

[LostInAnomie]

103. If pushing self-loathing on young boys is feminism...

... it deserves "hating on".

[bettyellen]

105. you could not be more wrong about the "self loathing" , so wrong that I can't help laughing at all

here who insist on commenting in anger without actually knowing the first fucking thing about the program.
the fear of a bit of enlightenment displayed here is......just wow. an eyeopener.

[LostInAnomie]

109. Right...

Prompting kids to say boys smell bad and grow hair everywhere is real enlightening.

[cyberswede]

112. Again...it seems that some folks are so invested in being pissed off

at what they think this is about, that they are totally unwilling to even try to understand the real purpose of the exercise. It'd be funny, if it weren't so unfortunate.

[cyberswede]

111. That's a pretty ignorant thing to say.

You can't really be that ill-informed, can you?

[LostInAnomie]

113. "Boys smell bad"

Nope, no self loathing there.

[cyberswede]

117. How is that "feminism?"

Feminism doesn't promote self-loathing in boys, FFS.

...to say nothing about how you totally miss the point of the exercise. It's not as if the items on the board are a list of unalterable facts about boys. Perhaps the group will discuss each item, and why those items aren't true, or how the items aren't exclusive to boys, or how gender stereotypes like those on the board are perpetuated, or how they can be done away with.

I get that you never participated in such exercises in school, but bettyellenhas described their purpose in detail. That you seem more interested in blaming "feminism" than in trying to understand the actual program is telling, I guess.

[LostInAnomie]

127. It's part of the White Ribbon Campaign.

http://www.feministtimes.com/profile-white-ribbon-campaign/
http://www.whiteribbon.ca/what-we-do/

The point of the presentation was supposed to be about stopping harmful ideas about masculinity and gender roles. What exactly does personal hygiene and body hair have to do with this? Nothing.

[cyberswede]

140. The kids themselves came up with those items.

Most of the items on the list do address harmful ideas about masculinity and gender roles.

[markpkessinger]

48. I dunno . . .

. . . I certainly would have related to a number of the items on that list when I was in the 4th grade. But then, as I got older, and realized I was gay, I pretty much said "fuck you" to anyone who tried to impose their expectations on me.

[bhikkhu]

55. Around 5th grade is when both of my daughters started seriously responding to stereotypes

and peer pressure. Like "girls aren't good at math" and "normal girls shouldn't be good at math". I had lots of talks with them trying to convince them that they could do anything they wanted, and being smart wasn't a bad thing, but around that age they both changed and peer pressure became the stronger influence.

I don't think 4th grade is too early at all for the kind of talk the OP engaged, and I'm pretty sure 5th or 6th grade is too late. By middle school, it seems, the book closes and its very much harder.

[bettyellen]

57. that is exactly what I have heard from educator friends. the minute kids can talk they are very

aware of how some things are supposed to be girl things or boy things, and some kids want to enforce those rules on others- other kids want to shatter them because they love things they should not.

Funny how asking boys for a bit of introspection is deemed abusive, LOL. That is ridiculous.

[Recursion]

136. Not to me

But then again I was one of those "sensitive" boys back in the day who thought things like that. *shrug*

[treestar]

154. +1

Someone told that kid to write that list.

If the kid is real, he's rare. Nine year old boys don't notice or say they can't cry.

[badtoworse]

13. Someday, they'll appreciate the 100 reasons why it's better to be a guy.

Not going to risk a hide by taking any further.

[Iamthetruth]

14. I feel sorry for him

He is confused and I just hope someone someone is there to explain the truths to him.

[justiceischeap]

15. More about this

http://higherunlearning.com/2013/10/05/what-i-like-and-dont-like-about-being-a-boy-thoughts-from-a-group-of-grade-4-boys/

I spoke at a conference in Toronto back in 2012 where my mission was to hang with a group of Grade 4 boys, all day. All. Day. Just me.

No sweat.

These boys from various parts of the city settled in, as their educators then went into their own day session. A freckled boy with long red hair came by himself and sat down. A young boy then whispered loudly to his small group of fellow classmates at end of the room “Yo, is that a GIRL??”

And there it was, right on time, that train is never late.

Pressures to be a certain way.

Pressures to enforce a certain way of being.

I think what this guy and the campaign is doing is great.

[bettyellen]

19. not sure why it flew over so many head here. Did people think they were just going to list a bunch

of crappy stereotypes and pretend they were good and true or something? Of course not.

[cyberswede]

42. No shit.

It's like people want to be pissed off about something, so they intentionally fail to understand it.

[bettyellen]

43. Or they want children to be imprisoned by stereotypes? Just like Honey Boo Boo's mom,

"sex" at 12 w/ pedos was good enough for me, suck it up girls, and don't try to be my better!

[yuiyoshida]

24. Interesting!!!

http://www.genderremixer.com/html5/#

[The2ndWheel]

32. Isn't that just one form of being a human?

A young boy then whispered loudly to his small group of fellow classmates at end of the room “Yo, is that a GIRL??”

How can this be bad or wrong? It's just one way to be a person. Can you pressure someone not to be this way, as that would be pressure to be a certain way?

[TeeYiYi]

87. I'm so glad...

...you found and posted the original source for this OP. It's a fantastic read. I'm still working my way through it and exploring the additional linked resources. Thank you.


TYY

[bettyellen]

23. that would be ironic, given the context, no?

Although with some of the bizarre response here, it looks like you have a point! Sad, that.

[betsuni]

26. Bizarre responses is right.

Discussing bad things in one's culture means you think it's good? I wonder where people get that idea.

[The2ndWheel]

25. Is it ok if a boy wants to like violence, smell bad, and grow hair everywhere?

[bettyellen]

31. this is actually a more thoughtful and understanding comment than most posts here, LOL....

who knew that children confronting their fears and BS stereotypes would be considered abuse.
DO some here actually think men can't be "moms" or get rid of body hair? this is the 21 st century for fucks sake! LOL.

[AngryAmish]

27. If anyone thinks this is ok you are broken inside

And probably can't be fixed.

[NaturalHigh]

30. This is damned close to being child abuse.

[linuxman]

35. Never to early for self loathing and deprication!

I'm grateful my teachers let me have time to be a child. The world laid its problems on me without any help, as I recall.

[davidn3600]

44. A lot of those are stereotypes put on men by women

Men are still expected to make more money (supposed to do all the work). Men are expected to be tough and "bad boys." (Supposed to like violence). And that's true. If you are a guy, you know exactly what Im talking about. The pressure is there even at a young age. If you are a woman, you probably don't understand what Im saying.

It's not just men that force those stereotypes on themselves, women do too. And yes, there are stereotypes men expect from women and women force upon themselves. It all works in a circle. Stereotypes go both ways. And you don't end the stereotype until it ends from both sides.

[cyberswede]

53. More like stereotypes put on men by our patriarchal society.

I'm glad people are beginning to recognize the damaging nature of such gender-based stereotypes.

[bettyellen]

56. If you believe that crap, do not blame women. blame yourself for not finding self-acceptance...

and surrounding yourself with those who accept and support your choices, instead of taking the boring ass phony lemming route.
It stopped with me, because no one else could do that for me.

[davidn3600]

60. Are you suggesting women have absolutely no social expectations of men?

Seriously?

[bettyellen]

65. I'm suggesting if you live for the approval of your bros or women instead of yourself you are a fool

who will be nothing but bitter.

it does not "take two" to end it, it takes one person- you- to disregard anyone who is trying to mold you into what you are not.

[davidn3600]

120. But you do recognize how powerful society is concerning this

Social conditioning is a very, very powerful phenomenon that begins at an age before we are even able to speak.

Remember that story a few months ago about the boy that went to school with a My Little Pony backpack? He was first bullied by fellow students, and then the school administration bullied him by saying he can't bring that to school anymore because it's a "distraction." Now if he had brought to school a GI Joe backpack...all would be fine. Right? No one would pick on him.

See how society programs people?

Stereotypes are programmed into us too. Gender roles also. Traditions and customs. And it's programmed into men and women. What's funny though is how we don't even realize it, for the most part. We just tell ourselves, "well, this is the way it's always been and therefore it is the way it must be." And we just accept it. Because no one wants to risk being the out-group.

[bettyellen]

125. oh I realized the programming as a child. Never been one of those who "accept it" or fear being the

'out group". I don't keep company with many people who go along with that rigidity. See it at work though, LOL.
WTF is with the idiocy that this program is some sort of attack on boys? Honestly, I am finding it incredible that anyone here could miss the point. Free to BE You and Me- this crap was covered on PBS over forty years ago- it's not radical to discus gender stereotypes.

[treestar]

159. Within the patriarchal society

Women who are living in that and accepting that. Those are fewer and fewer every generation. Women do work now, so that one about doing all the work has been wrong for 40 years. Women rebelled to be able to have careers, not the other way round. Whatever stereotype went with men was the favorable one, the one where the person had more control over their lives. "Having to do all the work" as a bad thing is BS - men had the work because it made the money and they knew that gave them control in their lives and control over their wives.

[treestar]

157. Men created them when they had all the power

Women have never had the power to force anything onto men.

[Dont call me Shirley]

46. I was just talking with my daughter today about why being a girl is better, being a boy is harder.

Texted her this post.

Sad and funny at the same time. Boys have way more pressure than girls to perform. It would be rough to be a guy, too much expectation of machismo. But the hardest would be that boys are never allowed to be vulnerable, never allowed to be wrong or show fault. Really our expectations of boys and men, from both genders, is unreasonable, emasculating and robs them of the opportunity to be their true selves.

[Luminous Animal]

83. Women who are strong are called a bitch. Women who challenge male dominated fields

are threatened with rape and death threats and driven from their homes. Did you talk to your daughter about that too?

[Dont call me Shirley]

90. Alas, I do. The beatings, the domination, the objectifying, the sexual blaming, the shaming...

All that said (and experienced personally) I would rather be a female still.

We are strong, we are soft, we are our family's glue, we are deep, we are connected, we are healers, we are tender lovers, we are wise, we are creative, we are the muse, we have the knowing, we are intuitive and instinctual. We are beautiful beings.

[freshwest]

147. While I don't agree one gender is better than the other, I agree with what you say here:

Boys have way more pressure than girls to perform. It would be rough to be a guy, too much expectation of machismo. But the hardest would be that boys are never allowed to be vulnerable, never allowed to be wrong or show fault. Really our expectations of boys and men, from both genders, is unreasonable, emasculating and robs them of the opportunity to be their true selves.

I think this is exactly what causes the anti-social and anti-female behavior later in life. My kid was and is, a loving, gentle, friendly person. I'd avoided the aggressive kids as much as possible growing up, and had little tolerance for games of dominance.

But rearing a son showed me a side of male life that I didn't know, almost like a pack of feral dogs in the way they acted. They are not allowed to walk away, they will be pursued. Any person not acting like the most dominant person was going to be punished, with severe consequences to their sense of self.

They simply were not going to be allowed to 'be' the person they in truth 'were,' they had to conform to the group. My kid could not be that way as it was much against his nature and he was bullied relentlessly. Nothing he said or did was left alone, he was not even given peace to do his school work at his desk, they went after him there. I did what I could to stop it but he had to attend school despite his fears of being put in with the pack there everyday.

He wanted to kill himself and the bullies told him that he should and told him to drink bleach and stuff and it was just mind numbing what they were doing to my kid. I was expecting the school to do the right thing and they couldn't control what was going on. The bullies were also very disrespectful to female teachers. When their parents were called in to deal with the disruption, the fathers came in and told them to shut up, too.

It took a terrible toll on my kid's mind until he was seen as the 'problem' there and not the ones instigating harm. At last one day, he realized the authority figures were not going to protect him, he fought them back. Then he was expelled. It turned out to be the best thing for both of us.

So we moved to get him in a progressive public school, but those are all under attack now. It saved his life and mine to get away from the regressives. I'm wondering how many of the boys that acted out on him grew up to have the kind of behaviors that we recognize as being sociopathic now. They learned it at home.

Thanks for your post.

[Dont call me Shirley]

161. They learn it at home, but they also learn it in the outside world. Heredity plays a part too.

My son had an equally tough time, being both bullied (me) and bully (his father). The pull between the two must be a heavy burden.

I would sense that this is what kids in abusive families experience, they go one way or the other, but to be pulled in both directions would feel like the psyche on the verge of being ripped in half. It's easier to pick abuser (the macho) or abused (the wimp) than torn in two.

This is the basic set-up of our society. We must change this. We must strive for equality for all. We must work toward compassion, caring and supporting the whole human.

I wish I had found a progressive school for my son, he is so confused and traumatized from "rehab homes", which are nothing by prisons minus the bars. They are not healing centers.

We, as a society, need is healing, psychological therapy, calming and centering practices and teaching honoring all life.

Really, I do not believe that girls are superior to boys or boys are superior to girls. It would simply be more difficult to be a male in today's world. We are all born onto this beautiful paradise we call Earth. We all deserve to be living in harmony with each other and our Home.

[cyberswede]

47. A minor point about the thread title...

There's a fairly significant difference between:
- "what I don't like about being a boy" and
- "why I don't like being a boy"

A kid could dislike certain aspects* of being a boy (or girl) and still be perfectly happy being a boy (or girl).



*and I submit that most of the aspects that they dislike are stereotypical gender-based constructs

[TeeYiYi]

68. Hey there, cyberswede...

...I edited the title for you.

TYY

[bettyellen]

70. Hey there TeeYiYi, did you have any idea the weird reaction this would get here?

have some people never discussed issues around gender roles like this?

I do see them bitterly whine about stereotypes they feel they HAVE to live up to (when they actually don't) interesting and SAD to see they do not seem to want better for the next generation. WOW. Eyeopening.

[TeeYiYi]

76. I figured...

...it might elicit a spirited discussion.

TYY

[bettyellen]

86. well I would not call the angry biology= destiny thoughts expressed here anything but

painfully regressive. I had thought most of us had left them behind in the 20th century.
I'm glad I did!

[cyberswede]

104. That was swell of you!

[phil89]

72. Disgusting stupidity.

Great way to harm kids' self image.

[noiretextatique]

73. some of the responses here are amusing

if this was about girls, i seriously doubt you'd get all the defensive responses from males. i did a study on sex-role socialization in college, and i found evidence of sex-role stereotyping in pre-school age children. it is never to early to start have discussions that make children think about themselves and their options in the world.

[bettyellen]

85. what is really sad is that some believe that these boys are doomed to be smelly, football watching,

hairy people who work too hard and can never have a baby on their own- even though these kids desperately want something else.

Where the fuck have they been the last 30 years? There are things like deodorant, classic movies, waxing and razors, working mothers, and adoption agencies! I am not making fun of the kids fears, but I do mock anyone here who thinks the future of these boys is somehow biologically inevitable. That shit is just stupid.

[noiretextatique]

91. it is stupid

i find it disturbing that little boys feel limited by biology, and i appreciate efforts of people who are working to dispel this "biology is destiny" crap. and the defensiveness is just idiotic. and as i said: the same would not happen if this was about girls.

[bettyellen]

94. this also would not be happening if some here had their own "biology is destiny" crap dispelled long

ago. I know a few male SAH "mommies", some hairy, some not....and none of them smell. Some people need to get out more.

[sunnystarr]

88. Did you ever think that 4th grade boys

never thought there was anything wrong or anything not to like about being a boy? I remember 4th grade really well. I never thought there was anything wrong, bad, or negative about being a girl. Seems to me that by asking those questions you're putting doubt in their minds ... then they'll be thinking that maybe there's something wrong with their gender and start looking for things to be wrong. I don't believe in teaching with a negative. Directing minds in positive pursuits has a positive outcome. Negative ones ... not so much.

[bettyellen]

93. Ooooh..... "The Secret"

Or let's put our head in the sand, and pretend life is rosy for everyone all the time!

[dilby]

110. you get it.

The question was a negative and not a question that was any way constructive to the growth of the child. It's basically a tell me what you think is wrong with you question. Not what is wrong with the way society perceives you. Most of the arguments I have seen supporting this bullshit is that this is a way for boys to overcome societies stigma, however it's not worded as societies stigma it's worded as you are fucked up so why is that.

[cyberswede]

115. Oh.my.god.

Nobody is telling these boys they are fucked up.

Identifying and discussing concerns is a constructive exercise.

[bettyellen]

123. oh- they think boys are inherently smelly and hairy, and its just that discussing it is fucked up!

OMG, someone explain basic hygiene to this crowd! LOL.

[Orrex]

137. Indeed. Too bad some people would mock and dismiss their concerns.

One can only hope that such toxic and destructive personalities are never allowed anywhere near children.

[Fumesucker]

168. Supposedly all of us on DU are adults and yet I see messages being taken the wrong way all the time

Just because a certain set of words means one thing to one person by no means implies that same set of words will mean exactly the same thing to any other person.

No one may be telling these boys they are fucked up but that that might very well be the message some of them are getting. Look at the different messages people on this site are taking from the OP, don't assume everyone takes everything the same way.

I think delving into people's psyches in a public setting isn't necessarily the best idea.

One thing I have learned in the last sixtymumble years as a male in America is that if you admit weakness someone sooner or later is going to take advantage of your admission to try and use it to hurt you, that's a lesson you are never allowed to forget for long.

[cyberswede]

169. Which is why the "discussing" part of the exercise is important.

(As an aside "sixtymumble" made me lol)

[Fumesucker]

170. Getting back to DU, things get "discussed" here all the time

And yet I see the same posters making the same arguments they have been making for years and the same posters on the "other side" putting forth things they have said a hundred times also. At this point I'm pretty sure both sides could argue the opposite side as well as they do their own.

Unfortunately people don't all see things from the same perspective and I'm skeptical they ever will.

[cyberswede]

171. I'm referring to the children performing the exercise

The whole point of it is to come up with things to discuss, in the hope of challenging stereotypical gender roles.

I would never expect DUers to agree on anything.

[maced666]

98. Wow. None of these ring a bell.

4th grade?
Supposed to play football?
My friends would answer not allowed enough time for football.
Not allowed to be a cheerleader - can honestly say none of us aspired.
Not being able to be a mother? Almost sounds made up - no on that.
Supposed to like violence? Does not sound anything like what a 4th grade boy would say - planted.
Found one! Boys smell bad - could see a couple of us saying that one.

[Behind the Aegis]

106. I am really perplexed by some of the comments here.

IMO, it is good for exercises like this because it allows the instructor to explore and, hopefully, correct negative feelings and stereotypes. It depends on the manner in which it is presented, but I have done diversity training sessions in a similar way for various groups, asking members of said what they didn't like about being in their group and why they felt the way they did. It also allows outsiders to see how stereotyping and bias affects the group under the gun.

[steve2470]

118. "having an automatic bad reputation", the saddest one for me

These are 9 year olds, sigh.

[Warren DeMontague]

121. Seriously, it's kind of like being a Wookie.

Good thread.

[bettyellen]

126. the hair?

[Warren DeMontague]

131. And the bad reputation. And, the smell!

Dear god, don't get me started on the smell.

[bettyellen]

144. LOL, good points!

[steve2470]

130. a wookie bwahahaha....good one Warren !

At least boys (I think) don't have to deal with hair growing in their ears !!! At least I never did, until I turned about 40. Less hair on head, now hair in ears ! Argh !

[Oktober]

128. So is it plural boys or just one sensitive soul...

... With his paper on the screen?

Smells of shenanigans...

[justiceischeap]

133. If you're really curious, I actually posted a link to the original OP about this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5841032

[RedCappedBandit]

134. I think this is a great exercise *and* these particular responses seem coached

May or may not be, but I wouldn't be surprise to see some leading questions provoking these responses.

[Prophet 451]

138. I've said this before but...

... the gender stereotype for boys is just as toxic as the gender stereotype for girls, albeit in a different way.

[Shankapotomus]

143. The question could have easily been rephrased

to avoid any controversy. Such as: "What is something about girls you would like to see boys have or do also?

[bettyellen]

145. only those ignorant of what happened think it is controversial. they covered good things too as

well as bad things, with boys and with girls..... and discussed that not everyone can or should feel the same way about certain things. That diversity and self acceptance is better than rigid conformity.
They were just giving kids permission to discard old notions and stereotypes they already felt were cast on them. I see a few people here love to cling to the old stereo types and find this extremely threatening.

[Shankapotomus]

148. I'm not sure how phrasing a question

in such a way that it allows for the conclusion that "boys smell bad" helps discard old notions and stereotypes, especially among children where that is an especially cruel taunt. That aspect of the lesson I have reservations about.

[bettyellen]

151. it's not a conclusion! Weird anyone would think that.....you should read the article

did no one ever discuss their fears and hopes as a kid? WTF?

[Shankapotomus]

153. No matter how you spin it

the generalization "boys smell bad", whether it's a conclusion, one boy's observation or an opinion, is never going to be a productive statement. It's a divisive statement as well as insensitive to people with disabilities who can't always control how they smell.

[bettyellen]

162. by your reasoning, no one should ever openly discuss their dislikes or fears for fear someone

somewhere might be offended. Divisive my ass, that is ridiculous.

[Shankapotomus]

164. There are proper context

under which it can be appropriate such as when trying to determine the roots of ones social conflicts and biases under the supervision of a counselor or psychologist. But as usual you presume far more than what I actually type out.

No, I don't think it is appropriate for children to level body centric criticisms at each other as part of a lesson. Ever hear of body dysmorphic syndrome?

I'm sure if we were talking about obese adult women you would agree it would be wildly inappropriate for someone to write down "they are fat" as part of a group exercise.

And it is such stances on your part, and the hostile language you frequently employ, that make me question your qualification and ability for further civil discussion on this matter.

[bettyellen]

165. Obviously you did not read the full story, as kids did not "level body centric criticisms" at each

other. So, question your own "qualification and ability for further civil discussion on this matter." Ha ha, or just read the article.

[Shankapotomus]

166. Link?

I was only given the link in the OP, which is hardly an article. Where is the article to which you are referring?

I doubt it will change my mind but stranger things have happened.

[bettyellen]

167. I agree that the piece in the OP does not give ANY context, but since we pretty much covered

this stuff as young girls in grade school- I did not need any. It was pretty much standard practice to discuss fears about your changing bodies with young girls before they went into puberty. Nothing nefarious about that aspect. We also touched on the added body hair and smell thing too- funny guys here do not seem to realize those are universal fears pre-puberty!

There were also discussions about future careers and opportunities for women and men to break the mold and be whatever you wanted. (Look up Free to Be You and Me for a good example) All of these things were good learning experiences. The poor kid who wanted to "mother" a kid, and the other who felt "men do all the work" totally needed to learn that their fears are unfounded, and that they had the agency to do so. That is awesome.


What I Like and Don’t Like About Being a Boy: Thoughts from a group of Grade 4 Boys.
http://higherunlearning.com/2013/10/05/what-i-like-and-dont-like-about-being-a-boy-thoughts-from-a-group-of-grade-4-boys/

Understanding Boys, Understanding Girls.
http://higherunlearning.com/2012/05/02/understanding-boys-understanding-girls/

[Warren Stupidity]

146. equally heartbreaking is the entirely predictable defensive outrage reaction here.

[TeeYiYi]

149. True that.

TYY

[betsuni]

152. Well, the Not All Men bat signal lit up.

No need to waste time understanding what the OP is about, their nemesis Teh Feminists must be lurking behind this abusive attack on boys/men -- Holy outrage! Tune in next time (any minute now) for the exact same defensive outrage at nothing.

[treestar]

155. Since women work now

It is BS that men have to do all the work. That is some kid copying MRA talking points. Only adult MRAs would make that silly claim. Nine year old boys know their mothers work too.