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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsObedience is the True Character Flaw
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40298.htmObedience is the True Character Flaw
By Paul Street
November 23, 2014 "ICH" - "ZNet" - - If you publicly dissent from and act against prevailing United States orthodoxies and the reigning US power structure, chances are good you will face personal and/or professional defamation and the charge of psychological unreliability and instability. It will be said that theres something wrong and untrustworthy about you. You will be demonized, dismissed, and demeaned as a marginal, inappropriate, and hyper-alienated oddball, a maladjusted eccentric no one should take seriously.
Kill the Messenger
Just as the great whistleblower Daniel Ellsburg. He committed a great public service by releasing the Pentagon Papers, thousands of pages of Pentagon documents showing that the murderous US policies and practices in Vietnam had nothing to do with Washingtons officially stated noble goals behind the Vietnam War. US President Richard Nixon responded by having the FBI break into the office of Ellsburgs psychiatrist to release embarrassing information about Ellsburgs personal life. The media took the bait, throwing a shadow of suspicion on the whistleblowers sanity even as it published the documents he released.
Gary Webb
<edit>
In 1998, an internal CIA report found that Webbs carefully gathered findings were accurate. The Justice Department also conducted an internal investigation that vindicated Webbs findings, long after anyone seemed to care. As Michael Parenti noted, Webbs real mistake was not that he wrote falsehoods, but that he ventured too far into the truth. [1]
<edit>
A Social Disease: The Logic of Individual Obedience
Obedience may arise from any number of motivations. The possible driving forces include an irrational trust in authority, insufficient confidence in ones own opinion or in ones ability to develop an informed opinion, or a fear of repercussions likely to follow from questioning and challenging authority. The last motive (fear) likely makes no small sense for many given the nasty treatment dissenters quite visibly receive from government and media powers. Jobs, homes, health/health coverage, family relationships and more are all stake once one is marked as a dissident. The silencing power of this fear is heightened significantly by the pervasiveness of surveillance
Lack of confidence in ones opinion or understanding on and of current events also makes a significant amount of sense in a political environment shaped by power-serving and power-reflecting corporate mass media. That media is institutionally mandated to given a strictly stunted presentation and interpretation of current events in accord with the narrow confines of corporate and imperial neoliberal ideology. Its not merely that US mainstream media is beholden to corporate America for advertising dollars or to the imperial state for access to information. That media is itself a deeply entrenched institutional component of the corporate structure and indeed of the imperial state. Asking it to substantively engage the leading issues of our time from anything but a highly constricted, power-serving perspective is like asking the editors of General Motors company newspaper to publish hard-hitting exposes on the exploitation of labor in GMs assembly plants or on GM environmental crimes.
more...
TampaAnimusVortex
(785 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)If 6 Was 9
Yeah, sing the song, Bro'
If the sun refuse to shine,
I don't mind, I don't mind,
If the mountains fell in the sea,
let it be, it ain't me.
Alright, 'cos I got my own world to look through,
And I ain't gonna copy you.
Now if 6 turned out to be 9,
I don't mind, I don't mind,
Alright, if all the hippies cut off all their hair,
I don't care, I don't care.
Dig, 'cos I got my own world to live through
And I ain't gonna copy you.
White collared conservative flashing down the street,
Pointing their plastic finger at me.
They're hoping soon my kind will drop and die,
But I'm gonna wave my freak flag high, high.
Wave on, wave on
Fall mountains, just don't fall on me
Go ahead on Mr. Business man, you can't dress like me.
Sing on Brother, play on drummer.
~ Jimi Hendrix ~
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)I want to be loyal to all people and institutions I hold to be dear and who/that have enriched my life.
but mindless "obedience" is a whole different proposition, that I generally do not subscribe to.
TampaAnimusVortex
(785 posts)I shoot for voluntary interactions. If someone is trying to push a non-voluntary action, one should always double check one's principles against it. Does it involve stealing, killing, etc... If so, I'm off the boat.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)"You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." - Abbie Hoffman
The biggest threat to America today is its own federal government
. Will the Army protect anybody from the FBI? The IRS? The CIA? The Republican Party? The Democratic Party?....The biggest dangers we face today dont even need to sneak past our billion dollar defense system
.they issue the contracts for them. - Frank Zappa
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Amen.
tclambert
(11,086 posts)I forgot where I read about this idea. Essentially, whistleblowers who proved truthful would win the lottery, enough so they didn't have to worry about getting fired, losing their benefits, or getting punished by the establishment in other ways. In such a society, the writer theorized, people would look for opportunities to become whistleblowers, and those in power, both corporate executives and politicians, took great care to play by the rules because everyone who worked for them would jump at the chance to report them.
pa28
(6,145 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)The phony "progressives" don't want a debate - and they don't want to see the Democratic Party prevail.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Actively campaigning for someone who isn't running and who publicly supports someone else is also a sure way to lose.
I don't want the Democrats to lose.
polichick
(37,152 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)And by voting for 3rd party or "independent" candidates, or by not voting at all.
And if Democrats lose, say goodbye to any progressive advancement. I don't want to see the Democrats lose.
polichick
(37,152 posts)What many people are beginning to understand is that both parties serve corporate interests rather than the people. The Dems have sold out through DLC/third Way infiltration.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)It's a RW lie designed to sap support from the Democratic Party. And it only seems to be applied to Democrats who have been successful against Republicans. Funny that.
polichick
(37,152 posts)Dems have filled power positions with corporate tools during the Clinton and Obama years.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)That line will inevitably read: "Dems have filled power positions with corporate tools during the Clinton, Obama and Warren years...." Talk about a lack of historical perspective.
Karl Rove is the piper, and you're the pipe-ee.
polichick
(37,152 posts)the ptb will probably take him out.
So there we are.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)let's see that, then we can move on to another subject.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)"Follow Warren and/or Sanders" is a litmus test. "OR ELSE" be purged from the party.
It's an authoritarian, anti-Democratic, Teabaggerish approach which will ensure the defeat of the Democratic Party. If that happens - no more progressive legislation for the next generation or two.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)C'mon Baldguy. You gt huffy when someone accuses you of it spuriously. Why shoul you be free to get away with doing the same thing?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)If you can't admit to basic facts, we have nothing to talk about.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Of his own creation.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)Who are working to destroy the democratic party by claiming traditional democratic values can win elections every bit as bad as teapublicons...because they want to destroy the party by making it...gasp...Change! and they want purity oaths too
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)It is
baldguy
(36,649 posts)& what it represents.
The Democratic Party is a coalition of a dozen or so more-or-less well-defined interest groups, and the myriad of conjunctions & overlaps of those groups. The purists here only claim represent ONE of those groups - and not a very honest claim at that, since what they advocate will destroy the only party that offers and has delivered the opportunity for real progress.
The only way the real progressives win is if the Democratic Party wins - with the entire coalition together. That's the meaning of "party loyalty" & "party unity".
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I have the archaic idea that my vote belongs to me. Not to the party. If the party, or its candidates, stray beyond my nose holding abilities in its policies or principles I feel no obligation to vote for it or the candidates it proposes. I am not a "purist". I just vote for policies and principles that I'm comfortable with and withhold my vote, or vote 3rd party, for those I'm against despite which party advocates them.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The purists stand for division.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)The "purists" stand for conformity and obedience and ignore democracy in favor of party purity.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)That's all you ever do. Why not join freeperville with your kindred spirits?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Liberals want actual progress, recognize that there are processes & procedures required to get there, understand that wishing dictatorial powers on one person is fantasy, but that it takes hard work by many dedicated individuals to achieve these ends, and while sometimes may be disappointed, are not disheartened in the quest to improve their lives & the lives of others.
OTOH, "liberals" only say they want progress, refuse to accept that simply wishing for something won't make it so, pout like spoiled children when they don't get their way, and - just like freepers, are likely to stab good Democrats in the back, and - just like freepers, have an authoritarian streak that demands purity, calling for purges and litmus tests, and - just like freepers, are happy to see the Democratic Party defeated.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)How embarrassing for you.
The call to stupid: Propaganda and the calculated replacement of logical argument with emotional idiocy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3652852
It's the Call to Stupid.
The incessant bullying to think like a stupid person.
We hate Ron Paul; therefore, if he is against bombing we should be for it.
We hate Glenn Greenwald; therefore, NSA spying is unimportant.
We hate Putin; therefore, nothing in that op-ed, not even one WORD, could possibly have any merit to it.
We are to blindly pick a side and wave our flags, STUPIDLY, belligerently, defiantly
ignoring any and all moral, ethical, and intellectual complexities.
We are incessantly bullied to think STUPIDLY, because STUPID THINKING lets corporate thieves and warmongers off the hook.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)hobbit709
(41,694 posts)NobodyHere
(2,810 posts)that asks for obedience to Democrats.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)we must be obedient to Democrats.
Thanks.
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Quite a few (seven, I think) of these links don't work anymore. For one of them, I was able to find an alternate link. I put them here anyway so you can see the titles of the missing OP's. I can't remember ever finding so many broken links on DU for a single topic.
This isn't about safety, it's about obedience
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9608293
Excessive Loyalty and Obedience to Malevolent Authority
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9588288
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5751677
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Time%20for%20change/593
The stench of fascism
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x7765352
Is obedience the only way to avoid police brutality?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025544025
Either you are a rebel or a slave---Choose---But choose fast .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2030062
OBEY. - I'm a cop. If you don't want to get hurt, don't
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025411360
Submissiveness required by zero tolerance, no excuses (Corporate Education)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11249559 http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025714928
Seven years of silence, chanting, and obedience: Argosy Collegiate Charter School
http://edushyster.com/?p=1425
Why Are Americans So Easy to Manipulate and Control ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101644596
With little fanfare, the TSA has expanded to sporting events, music ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023416581
Noam Chomsky: How the Young Are Indoctrinated to Obey
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101623207
Submissiveness required by zero tolerance, no excuses.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/11249559
Students Terrorized as Police Officers Draw Guns During Unannounced Active Shooter Drill At Elementary School
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025826009
'I don't want to go to Disney World anymore': Parents' fury as TSA agents detain their crying, wheelchair-bound daughter
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022408410
Police set up roadblocks to 'voluntarily' collect DNA, blood
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023016470
The President decides. TSA groping will continue ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9598152
Civil liberties disappear in the 2012 Democratic platform.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021267747
TSA detains woman for "attitude"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021317581
Pennsylvania street checkpoint asks drivers for mouth swabs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024195885
The National Security State: Cultivating a Culture of Fear and Obedience
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017222034
#TSA%20groping%20people%20640x360
?v=5
Zorra
(27,670 posts)snip---
Knowledge is power. We need to understand the true nature of the system, so we can then start formulating the right solutions; if we are being manipulated, then we need to fully understand exactly how that's happening; we need to know exactly how the corporate-government apparatus is illegally and unconstitutionally monitoring us with the total information awareness surveillance state; we need to unite in solidarity (unions, social justice activists, progressive groups, etc.) and formulate strategies to dismantled the Oligarchy, and the surveillance police state.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/11/1238013/-The-Surveillance-State-As-Foucault-s-Panopticon
Knowledge linked to power, not only assumes the authority of 'the truth' but has the power to make itself true. All knowledge, once applied in the real world, has effects, and in that sense at least, 'becomes true.' Knowledge, once used to regulate the conduct of others, entails constraint, regulation and the disciplining of practice. Thus, 'there is no power relation without the correlative constitution of a field of knowledge, nor any knowledge that does not presuppose and constitute at the same time, power relations.~ Michel Foucault
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)That was an excellent post and link.
UglyGreed
(7,661 posts)never be a follower, always do what you think is right.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mahatma Gandhi
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Corporations, and corporate candidates, are, by definition, driven only by the growth of the corporation's power and profit, never by what is right for human beings.
cali
(114,904 posts)marmar
(77,080 posts)woo me with science
(32,139 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Obedience and accepting the system is made synonymous with being perceived as a "mature adult" rather than a "childish rebel without a clue".
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Rosa Luxemburg
True Blue Door
(2,969 posts)When you drive on the right side of the street, are you engaging in "obedience" because the law tells you to, or just behaving rationally?
A sane, decent person doesn't obey the law - they agree with the law most of the time, and act to uphold it because it's a rational set of rules.
The fact is very few people obey the law. People obey the state, for fear of reprisal.
Therein lies a crucial challenge to society, because rational people's decisions to follow the law are conditional, and irrational/cowardly people's decisions have nothing to do with the law - only with the arbitrary power of enforcement organizations.
Octafish
(55,745 posts)King George's turd cousins would still be stealing all the loot.
One minor quibble: The guy's name is Ellsberg. Daniel Ellsberg.