As someone who said "I want to wait for the facts" about Wilson: we have them now, and he looks bad

[Recursion]

I know I pissed some people off by saying "I want to wait to hear the witnesses", now that we have the GJ testimony (which I wasn't expecting we would get), it makes Wilson look really bad. From what I've read, I would have indicted for manslaughter based on Wilson's escalation of the confrontation.

Wilson was in control when he was in the car. It was his responsibility to maintain control of the situation, and instead he made it worse.

Anyways, just wanted to get that out there.

[SomethingFishy]

1. There was more than enough for an indictment...

this wasn't the damn trial, it should have been up to a jury to decide whether or not Wilsons claims were credible. What really stuck out for me was Wilson's claims that he was being beaten and "the next blow could have been the death blow", and the stark contrast that statement makes with the pictures of his "injuries".

[unblock]

4. knowing what i know now, i'm glad there was no indictment...

... because an indictment would mean that this prosecutor would just throw the fight at trial, handing double jeopardy protection to wilson.

this way, we can still hope that some future prosecutor will pick up the case and handle it properly. at least if he's replaced before the status of limitations runs out.

[SomethingFishy]

5. You have a good point..

I just came out of a thread where there is apparently some conflict of interest with the prosecutor coming to the surface...

[unblock]

8. you mean a conflict beyond the conflict prosecutors always have going against the police?

[truedelphi]

9. McCullough, the prosecuter, was also the President of the Organization that raised

Tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands for Officer Wilson!

[unblock]

12. holy crap! he went out of his way to create a conflict of interest after the fact!

[Rex]

10. Check this out.

The prosecutor is the president of an organization that was taking donations for Wilson's defense.

[unblock]

13. wow. just.... wow.

[Leopolds Ghost]

37. Can this be enough for a DOJ indictment?

[avebury]

45. I do not think that there is a statute of limitation on

any of the charges he could have faced. Murder and lesser murder related charges don't usually have a time limit that they have to be filed in.

[unblock]

49. in missouri, from what i can gather -- murder: no limit; voluntary manslaughter: 3 years.

in missouri, it appears some of the lesser homicide-related charges are class b or even class c felonies, for which a statute of limitations does apply.

[KingCharlemagne]

64. There's no statute of limitations for murder. - nt

[unblock]

65. true, but there may be for lesser homicide charges, e.g., voluntary manslaughter.

[lovemydog]

15. Also, if as Wilson claimed 'the next next blow could have been the death blow'

then he should have waited for backup, which arrived 90 seconds after it was called in. But no, he didn't do that. He followed Mr. Brown after Brown left and walked or ran in the other direction. Even according to Wilson, he only fired two shots in the car. Wilson should have stayed in his car and waited for backup to arrive.

Particularly tragic is that of the 11 shots Mr. Wilson fired, apparently it was the last shot which struck Mr. Brown in the forehead that killed him.

Personally I think Wilson bullshitted his entire story. I believe there was probable cause to indict on a manslaughter or 2nd degree murder charge. I believe the grand jury would have indicted on such a charge if the prosecutor had directed the case in that way. And if he had overseen the grand jury in the same way he had done on the countless other cases in which he has gotten the grand jury to return an indictment.

[marions ghost]

28. Exactly what I think

as you summed it up. A miscarriage of justice from the beginning.

[elleng]

2. Thanks.

I didn't say 'I want to wait for the facts,' but I thought it, and I agree with you.

[malokvale77]

3. Thanks for that.

There's hope for you yet. Hah.

[noiretextatique]

6. at least you actually waited for and absorbed the fatcs

unlike most who claimed to be doing that. i can respect that

[NYC_SKP]

7. I agree, there was plenty here for at least a manslaughter indictment.

It might have ended in acquittal, but it was definitely a charge that should have been brought, even if we take all of Wilson's story at face value.

Wilson should have stayed with his car and waited for backup.

That, at the very least, is negligence and against sound procedure.

[Recursion]

11. ^^^ Backup was 90 seconds away. Stay in the damn car.

Even if I grant that Brown was a "charging demon" or whatever, that's all the more reason not to get out of the car without backup, because if he takes you down then you have a demon with a gun, mace, handcuffs, and ASP.

[DesertFlower]

17. exactly.

[NYC_SKP]

21. Indeed, Wilson left his car to go after the unarmed black kid and "have his way with him".

Police and their power trip, they seem to hate nothing more than noncompliance, even with stupid orders.

I'd like to think that most police officers would have kept their calm, but we know what we're dealing with here, unfit to be in any position of authority.

Wasn't there a video that surfaced of Wilson talking about domestic abuse calls and how they ought to just let them kill one another?

Oops, that was Dan Page, also of Ferguson PD. "If you don't want to be shot, don't show up in front of me."

Here's the whole thing:

Fucking nuts.

[SamKnause]

25. Fucking nuts indeed !!!

[Leopolds Ghost]

62. This asshole. Was he actually a Ferguson cop?

[NYC_SKP]

63. Yes, he was, on the job and on the scene during the first protests in Ferguson!

Being paid for it!!!



Good to see you, L.G.!

[Leopolds Ghost]

66. Hi NYC :)

I posted a thread in DU2 when I came back to DU after thanksgiving, but I don't think it posted... certain threads appear but I can't click on it.

[joshcryer]

31. Drive away.

Person vs car. Car always wins. I have doubts Brown was pummeling Wilson, I suspect as I said in another post Wilson was holding his arm, could've even had the arm in a hold which would be difficult to get out of.

[RockaFowler]

44. Or even roll up the window!!!

[ecstatic]

14. Thank you for sharing,

although, when is it ever appropriate to shoot someone who's running away? I can't imagine any set of facts that would ever make that OK.

[lovemydog]

16. Perhaps if there is imminent danger to another person, for example

where the person is armed and has a gun pointed at someone else. Or a bomb that could go off. Or even where it's clear that he is armed and dangerous and a threat to others.

Of course, none of those extant emergency type situations apply in this case.

[uponit7771]

47. Yeap, Brown was unarmed and running away... him looking like a demon shouldn't be

... enough to kill someone

[XemaSab]

18. Article from the WaPo:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/current-law-gives-police-wide-latitude-to-use-deadly-force/2014/08/28/768090c4-2d64-11e4-994d-202962a9150c_story.html

[Recursion]

19. I don't know that Brown was running away when Wilson fired

I don't know that he wasn't, either, but the body was closer to the car than the bloodstains on the street. I also didn't read a witness testimony (though I haven't read them all) that said that Brown was still running away during the second and third bursts.

[Thor_MN]

22. Brown died 143 feet from Wilson's vehicle.

[Recursion]

23. And was closer to the car than the second set bloodstains

The blood stains were 152 feet from the vehicle. He was moving towards the vehicle between the second and final shootings (and so probably moving towards Wilson).

[Thor_MN]

26. So you doubt that he could move 9 feet forward as he was falling dead?

That's two steps and falling on your face for a 6 foot man. I wouldn't say that is exactly charging forward...

[Recursion]

27. Not if he was running away at the time.

Once again, this is the kind of question a trial is supposed to figure out, not a grand jury...

[Thor_MN]

41. Agreed, the job of a jury, not a grand jury, to determine

if he had stopped, raised his hands, and fell forward as he was gunned down (eyewitness version) or if he was charging back after running away over 150 feet (shooter version).

It is normally not the job of a grand jury to hear defense testimony, the sole job of a grand jury is to decide if there is enough evidence to proceed with a trial.

[Recursion]

42. Well we're 100% agreed on that. This was a true bill that a GJ denied

I'm not saying (here) that Wilson was guilty. I'm saying that the preponderance of the evidence for at least involuntary manslaughter existed. I don't even see a way to argue that. Grand juries are not supposed to decide facts. Grand juries are supposed to decide if it is reasonably possible that a prosecution can proceed. I see no way to deny that this is the case here.

[Leopolds Ghost]

38. He was retreating BACKWARDS towards the vehicle!

[Thor_MN]

43. Well, hell, why were you not deposed?

You appear to have eyewitness testimony that was not heard. Either that or you are just being an ass.

[Leopolds Ghost]

50. I was being facetious.

[Thor_MN]

53. Ok, I accept that you were being an ass.

[Leopolds Ghost]

54. I guess you've heard of black humor in life and death situations

"We are advancing on the enemy, sir, we're advancing backwards"

[Thor_MN]

55. Apparently you are the sole person allowed to be facetious.

[Leopolds Ghost]

56. Why yes, yes I am.

[Thor_MN]

57. Like I said, I agree

you were attempting to be an ass.

[Leopolds Ghost]

58. I think we are in agreement on the issues here, other than me always being right. ;)

[Thor_MN]

59. Yup

Although I would probably now have to add being overconfident and smug.

[Leopolds Ghost]

60. ... I was too modest to say it, but thanks!

[div style="width:330px"] [div style="float:right;height:50px;overflow:visible"]

[alittlelark]

20. ........sigh.................

[nomorenomore08]

34. Is this an "I told you so," or what?

(And for the record, I think Wilson should've been indicted for manslaughter at minimum.)

[kelliekat44]

24. But prosecutor never asked for an indictment on any charge. It was fixed from the beginning. nt

[Recursion]

40. My fault. I literally didn't conceive of a GJ failing to indict at least on Man 2

And in fairness that is basically unheard of.

[Leopolds Ghost]

61. In the sense that... you don't take it to a grand jury and not get an indictment, right?

Which raises the question how would this biased prosecutor have done any better at trial if he was taking the defense position in the courtroom.

[joshcryer]

29. Does anyone know if another prosecutor can charge Wilson?

As far as I understand the case is still open.

[Recursion]

30. Jeopardy doesn't attach with a grand jury

That said, if McCullough went straight to trial (which he was always able to do) or sought an indictment a 2nd time, the trial judge is going to be a lot more skeptical.

[pnwmom]

32. But if you weren't expecting we'd ever get to read the GJ testimony,

why were you saying you wanted to wait to hear the witnesses?

If they hadn't released the testimony, would you still be saying that we couldn't draw any conclusions?

[Recursion]

35. Because I thought it would go to trial

I didn't seriously think a grand jury would refuse to indict.

[joshcryer]

39. Same.

I thought the audio tape was an indictment, clear as day. That delay, more than enough time to assess.

Note: I didn't make the "let's wait for the information to come out" statement. I tend to not be that cautious. I just stayed out of the discussions until I heard the audio, then I declared, ignorantly, Wilson was done for.

[AverageJoe90]

33. I don't blame you for holding back initially, to be truthful.

Things kinda *were* muddled in the beginning, to some extent; wasn't until sometime after that all, that the real facts came out. But when they did, it did indeed prove that Wilson fucked up.....if nothing else, he's guilty of manslaughter at the very least. (Although I myself have long suspected it was a lot worse than that.)

[Leopolds Ghost]

36. k/r

[Vinca]

46. I almost think the prosecutor looks worse.

He might not have pulled the trigger, but it's obvious he actively worked to prevent Wilson from being held accountable for his actions. It's clear he put on a one-sided, full blown case. There was no one involved who might have asked Wilson why he didn't step on the gas, leave the immediate scene and wait for back-up. There was no one to rebut the "Hulk Hogan" remark (I'm betting the cop was in better shape physically than the chunky kid). I don't believe the grand jury understood the difference between probable cause and guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and what they were supposed to base their decision on.

[TBF]

48. It's pretty bad -

I doubt the police or McCullough ever thought this case would go national. Now they are fumbling all over trying to contain it. Unless DOJ finds a way to step in Wilson is going on the talk show circuit and that's it. Very sad.

[Wella]

51. How did Wilson lose control of the car?

I didn't hear that part of it.

[Jackpine Radical]

52. Thanks. There's never anything wrong with honest skepticism

and withholding of judgment until the available data are in.