Why What Happened In The Store Matters

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

I'm not very good at expressing myself, so I hope you will bear with me. I've tried to express this in other posts, but thought I'd make the topic its own thread.

FIRST, I am not in a position to judge what crime Wilson should have been charged with, if anything. I didn't hear the testimony. It does appear that an injustice has occurred.

To many of us it matters - NOT BECAUSE ANYONE DESERVES TO BE KILLED FOR STEALING SOME CIGARILLOS - but because it goes to Michael Brown's state of mind.

You see, I just don't understand it. Understand lots of folks smoke pot? Yes. (Much discussion about this in the grand jury testimony,). Understand some kids (black, white, rich, poor) and adults will engage in minor shoplifting? Yes.

What I don't understand is Michael Brown's state of mind that morning. What I see on that video and what I have read in the grand jury testimony is an 18 year old young man who brazenly walks into that shop, steals some cigarillos, attempts to hand stolen goods over to his friend (who wisely put the items back on the counter), walks towards the door, and then bullies the man at the door. (I use the word "bully" because "assault" and a few other words may carry legal significance, and I don't want to go there. His posture over the man was purposely intimidating the way he leans over him.

Then, he walks outside, carrying cigarillos in each hand for everyone to see, and walks down the middle of the lane. When Wilson tells him to move to the side of the road, did he tell himself, "Shit, I better move to the sidewalk?" No, he continues to walk down the middle of the road knowing he is carrying stolen goods

What was going on in his mind? Yes, we should rightly ask what was going on in Wilson's mind, but Brown's state of mind also has bearing on how he "may" have acted.

No, I don't understand. Hell, one of my kids could get caught shoplifting someday. I hope I've raised them not to do such a thing, but I'll never say never. I just don't think one of my kids would EVER act like Brown acted - like he didn't give a shit that anyone saw him take the cigarillos. THAT is what I can't get out of my head.

If you want to know why we consider the theft of the cigarillos, this is why. A young man is dead. His family is mourning and will mourn for decades to come. But I want to know more. Beyond the fact that a cop shot a man whom he probably shouldn't have shot. Why did this cop discharge his weapon for the first time? Why Michael Brown?

If folks really want to know why I and others question this episode, this is why. It's not because we think he deserved to be killed. It's because we don't understand his behavior.

Brown's behavior before Wilson ever backed up his car. I want to understand that mindset. Why wasn't he scared of getting caught for stealing while Johnson was terrified. Why?

[hlthe2b]

1. what you don't understand is Darrron Wilson's ACCOUNT of Brown's behavior

and that of RW media--which you seem to have swallowed without question.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

3. No, I question his behavior

but I also question Brown's. The eighteen year old acted irrationally prior to the episode at the car. That is why I can't be certain he didn't act irrationally with Wilson.

I just don't understand it.

I've read a lot of the grand jury testimony, btw.

[hlthe2b]

6. were you there? No, then you are assuming Wilson accounts of his behavior.

[phil89]

142. Were you there?

nt

[hlthe2b]

144. I'm not the one telling everone what transpired with someone NOW DEAD.

[snappyturtle]

14. I reconcile this sad state of affairs this way: Both Brown and Wilson

screwed up and the results are a catastrophe esp. for Brown's family. Sad.

[Xipe Totec]

2. we don't understand his (Brown's) behavior because he did not get a chance to say anything.

The only one that got a chance to say anything about Brown's behavior was Wilson.

If Brown's behavior makes no sense it's because Wilson is not very good at making up stories.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

5. I am talking about Brown's behavior before he ever encountered Wilson

I DO NOT understand how he could steal and act like he didn't give a damn that he might be caught, while Johnson was terrified that they would get caught.

[hlthe2b]

10. Turn off Faux for one day and see if you can see anything other than their talking points on this.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

12. WATCH CNN a few hours a week.

Fox, no. MSNBC, rarely.

[hlthe2b]

16. CNN's been nearly as bad on this... Ratings, from the racist froth they are stirring up seems to be

driving MSM

[Xipe Totec]

11. And I'm saying he didn't get to tell his side.

So we don't know, and will never know.

[JaneyVee]

17. Perhaps there's more to the video than meets the eye.

Perhaps he paid for them but not in full. At my local store I constantly see squabbles over 15 cents or a quarter.

[tosh]

4. Due process.

Denied.

[XemaSab]

7. The initial narrative from Dorian Johnson

made it sound like Mike Brown was shot for jaywalking.

The story is more complicated than that.

[elleng]

115. Yes.

[seabeyond]

8. why being a part of the KKK really matters, when a white cop in a black area. ya think?

it goes to a state of mind, .... and all

[elias49]

9. WTF? nt

[JaneyVee]

13. OMG AN 18YR OLD ACTING IRRATIONALLY?!!!

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

18. He was eighteen. Not two.

The vast majority of eighteen year olds have enough sense not to get caught stealing in broad daylight. They sneak what they steal when someone isn't watching. A kid takes a candy bar when the shopkeeper isn't watching.

Or am I wrong on that?

[seabeyond]

22. he didnt "get caught". the cop didnt know he was in the store. yes. you are wrong. nt

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

28. Bad wording. He was "caught" by the guy at the door

nt

[seabeyond]

35. you want to create this whole conjecture, pinning brown responsible for his death, when the cops

mental behavior is HUGE in this scenario. lazy.

you would have a lot more success saying any anger and fear came from cop abuse that is well documented in this area. but no... nuthin' there, is there?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

41. That has been discussed at length here

But no one wants to understand why some might question Brown's behavior, as well. I honestly tried to explain that.

[seabeyond]

43. ok

[Spirochete]

67. Yes, it would have been good

for people to have been able to ask him "what the fuck is wrong with you?". Unfortunately, that will never happen now. He leaves behind a number of unanswered questions, and the reason for that will not be prosecuted.

[JaneyVee]

23. Who knows if you're wrong or right on that. No one.

For all we know maybe he didn't think he got caught or was on camera.

[azmom]

80. I grew up in the hood and worked

In a small neighborhood store. We knew 99% of the customers. We had gang members coming in as well as little old grandmothers. People would walk off without paying for things all the time. The only thing we did was tell them they could not come in the store anymore. Some people complied others didn't.

I saw the video and did not think it was a big deal.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

91. Really?

"People would walk off without paying for things all the time."

I guess that's the part I don't understand. How can kids learn right from wrong if this is supposed to be common behavior? It was no big deal?

If I got a call saying my son had just shoplifted, I'd think it was a damn big deal!

[azmom]

103. I think people teach their kids

Right from wrong. Most parents care about their kids and don't want them to come to any harm. Parents are not aware this stuff is happening. Like I said, we would usually tell them not to come into the store. We never called their parents or the police.

Some neighborhoods are really rough like that. Let me just say that there are worse things happening in those neighborhoods than stealing. It's a socio economic problem.

[helpmetohelpyou]

106. What would happen to the people who didn't comply?

[azmom]

109. The store owner would talk to them and escort them

Out of the store. If they kept coming in, the store owner would tell them he would call the cops on them. That usually kept them away for a year or so and then everyone would forget about it and they would be allowed back in to the store.


I worked there five years and the owner never called the cops on anyone. I think he just saw the losses as part of doing business in the hood.

[azmom]

111. Maybe that is why we never got robbed.

Items were stolen, but cashiers were never robbed. I was never afraid of working there. Everyone in the neighborhood knew me and knew I was always nice and respectful towards everyone.

[helpmetohelpyou]

116. A store owner I know put a sign up no more than 3 kids

allowed inside at a time. The kids would come in groups of 10 or more
and they were stealing so much candy or what young kids steal
that it started to effect the store's bottom line.

I was there once when 15 young kids walked in at once.
The register rang up about $8 but I bet $40 walked out of the door.

I could never own a small store in the hood , it would drive me nuts dealing with those little goblins

[azmom]

124. He mainly hired teenagers and paid

Us minimum wage, and his prices were high compared to regular grocery store. People shopped there because it was convenient. I think he did alright.

I just remembered, that we had this big guy, Bennie, who worked in the meat department and the store owner would call him to back him up sometimes.

[U4ikLefty]

15. Why float this turd on a site that has debumked it MANY times already?

That's "what I don't understand."

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

21. Before Wilson backed up his car.

THAT is the mindset I want to understand.

None of that has been debunked. It's on the video and in the grand jury testimony. Johnson makes it very, very clear that he was terrified, while he was dumbfounded by his friend's behavior.

Read it yourself.

[U4ikLefty]

36. Yeah, you want to understand the mindset of the victim.

[truedelphi]

132. The store video itself is extremely hard to

examine, in terms of who did what. On the video, you can see some people standing inside a store, basically blocking the store's entrance and exit door(s)

One of the people is the clerk, as that person identified themselves.

But the other two people are indeterminate as to whom they happen to be.

Unless you have another clearer video in mind. (If someone does have a link to a clear video of the store happenings, I would love the link to it.)

[Rex]

19. I don't understand why the shop owner said Brown did not steal from the store

nor is he even sure that is Brown in the video. Why would he say that? What I don't understand is why people ignore that shop owners own words.

To a LOT OF US, it matters because it makes people that stick with the Foxnews story line look very disingenuous. Someone help me understand the behavior of people that ignore key facts.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

25. The shopkeeper carefully said that he didn't say

"I didn't say that." Does not mean that Brown didn't steal.

Can you not see that the man fears for his livelihood? His own safety?

Are you really going to deny what happened on the video, and which, if you are confused about it, Johnson explains in great detail in grand jury testimony?

[Rex]

31. So you now can read the shop owners mind? Maybe 'he didn't steal' means just that

and you are desperately trying to avoid that key piece of evidence.

[Warren Stupidity]

145. The Grand Jury was not presented with evidence that indicated that Brown robbed the store.

So it seems that even a DA hell bent on not getting an indictment didn't think there was anything substantial in the "robbed a store" bullshit.

Thanks again for not getting it at all.

Hands up - all 12 eye witnesses agreed on that. Shot dead while surrendering. Not a crime if the victim is black.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

147. No, just Dorian Johnson's very detailed version of events in the store.

[hedgehog]

20. One possibility - the behavior doesn't make any sense because it's not what actually happened.

Edited to add - we don't know what was said in the shop, nor do we have any context as to what may have happened when Brown was in the shop before and/or if being harassed for walking in the road was an on-going issue. (I am unclear as to whether all are agreed that it was even Brown on the store video.)

[IdaBriggs]

24. Ah, the grumpy, moody teenager who wasn't actually convicted of any crime concern.

Did you read the Grand Jury testimony from the storekeeper?

I haven't. I don't believe there is any.

But if you can find some, I am interested. As far as I know, the shopkeeper did NOT call the police over an incident where the customer Gave Him Money (per the video) and there was some dispute over about $5 in merchandise.

If you come back with "Dorian Johnson said...." I expect you to believe ALL of his testimony, including the cop nearly running them over, grabbing Michael, threatening him for attitude, then shooting as they tried to escape the crazy man With A Gun shooting at the unarmed teen.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

26. The man fears for his life. He doesn't want to have anything to do with this!

[IdaBriggs]

101. Summons to a Grand Jury aren't things you can just say "not coming to"

Because it Doesn't Work That Way.

Seriously, you didn't find that suspicion at all? You aren't even a lawyer and "state of mind" came to your head, but the supposed victim (who had no way of knowing testimony wouldn't stay confidential) does NOT corroborate the official story.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

117. Why should the shopkeeper have been summoned

What did he know that Johnson didn't know?

It's not an executable offense to steal cigarillos; there was no need to prove that.

[IdaBriggs]

125. You just did an entire post about "what happened there matters" but now

you don't think what happened there PER THE SHOPKEEPER matters.

I am a tad confused.

Please make up your mind.

[KingCharlemagne]

57. That's it in a nutshell, isn't it? The copologists project a 'sincere desire to

uncover the facts and understand the mindsets' but they use only that portion of Johnson's testimony which they can construe as favorable to Wilson while excluding every portion of Johnson's testimony that shows up Wilson's fantabulous tale for the line of bullshit it is.

The strategy is so transparent that one must question the good faith of the people using it, especially when they continue to do so after having had it brought to their attention.

[ScreamingMeemie]

27. First, stop yelling.

Second, you have no idea what "Michael Brown's state of mind" was at the time. Read the Dorian Johnson testimony in its entirety.

At the end of the day, this cop committed murder and should never have been a cop in the first place if you want to talk about "states of minds." I am not comfortable with the fact that Mr. Wilson came up with some extremely unhinged verbiage in his testimony.

[TBF]

29. "a cop shot a man whom he probably shouldn't have shot"

That sentence alone tells me all I need to know about you. "Probably"?

[Starry Messenger]

30. I guess next time we should shoot Winona Ryder

or Lyndsey Lohan, for "having the mindset."

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

34. Actually, those rich white girls

Yeah, they stole, but did they brazenly do it, or try to sneak away with the merchandise?

And, "that" mindset could be discussed all day. Rich folks stealing. WHY?

[seabeyond]

37. are you fuggin' serious? lordy. sounding all hat here, ... nt

[Starry Messenger]

48. Omfg

Why the fuck would that even matter--even if this alleged event took place, both young white women got court dates, not fucking shot with their bodies laid out like road kill in the hot sun for four hours,

Way to miss the fucking point.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

51. The point was "What was Brown's mindset?"

as well as "What was Wilson's mindset?"

[Starry Messenger]

63. Did you wake up this morning thinking you'd be shot to death

while minding your own business by a trigger happy lunatic? Brown probably didn't either.

[cali]

60. yes, they did it pretty damn brazenly.

but they are famous white girls.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

32. People were asking why the incident in the store is brought up

I tried to explain why.

I'm not going to argue anything to death. People are hurt over this. I sincerely tried to explain why.

[Rex]

40. Actually the store is talked about, because the owner never pressed charges or said Brown stole

from the store. Also, the store owner puts his hands on Brown FIRST...not that I would expect you to notice that part of the video.

[suffragette]

148. "People are hurt over this"? A young man is dead over this.

I think your sense of proportion is off.

[KingCharlemagne]

33. To borrow a phrase from lawyers (or lawyer TV shows), you're assuming 'facts

not in evdience.'

Maybe the reason Mike Brown acted like he had not a care in the world is that, in his mind, he had not stolen anything (even if, to Johsnon and to the anonymous customer who called 9-11, it appeared as though he had). In short, it has never been established that Mike Brown robbed that store of anything of value whatsoever. The police report that listed a $50 box of Swisher Sweets was in clear error, as Brown handed Johnson the box (worth $50) and Johnson placed the box back on the counter.

So the police report is wrong, the store owner and clerk refused to press charges and indeed appeared mystified when police showed up with a subpoena for the video. All we have left is the character assassination of Brown engaged in by Ferguson police (at the same time they released Wilson's name) in the form of a video with no audio that does not show everything that transpired.

To put a finer point on it, exactly what are you alleging that Brown stole from that store?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

38. I'm not alleging

I am recounting Johnson's testimony, which squares with the video. Without Johnson's lengthy testimony, we might be able to quibble over what we think we may or may not have seen. I don't think that is in question, now.

[KingCharlemagne]

42. You are evading both my analysis -- just b/c Johnson thought

Brown had stolen something doesn't mean Brown stole anything -- and my question. So I'll repeat it:

What exactly is it that you allege or think that Brown stole from that store?????

[Rex]

56. Nothing according to this video footage of Brown.

Which people seem to not know anything about. although it was talked about forever when it first came out.

http://aattp.org/ferguson-cops-busted-new-video-seems-to-show-brown-paying-for-cigarillos-video/

[KingCharlemagne]

65. Here's the (real) question. Why didn't Wilson say "You are under arrest" or give

any sign whatsoever that he suspected Brown and\or Johnson of robbery? Answer: Because that's not why Wilson stopped Brown and Johnson (or, more accurately, reversed his car at a reckless rate of speed almost hitting both Brown and Johnson who had to jump back to avoid being struck)? It was a rationale uncovered and exploited after the fact when the purported suspect, Brown, was no longer able to respond to the gross post-mortem calumny unleashed by the Ferguson PD

[Rex]

75. Yeah that really brings it home right there. Wilson did not try to arrest either one

because he had no idea about the store. I think the truth is more like you said...Wilson was furious that these two kids would defy his orders.

[KingCharlemagne]

92. My theory about Wilson's real stream of consciousness (interspersed with facts in parenthesies):

(Wilson told the two of them to get out of the street and drove off.) When he looks in his rear view mirror, he sees them still walking in the street. The nerve! How dare they disobey him? Hadn't the older one (Johnson) told him they were almost to their 'destination' and would be leaving the street quickly? WTF? They're still in the street? Why he'll just see about that! (Wilson reversed his car recklessly, almost hitting Brown and Johnson. "What did you (just) say?" he shouted out the window at Johnson, since Mike Brown had said nothing.) They told him they were getting out of the street but here they are still in the street. Those fucking n*****s are all the same, a bunch of god-damned animals who only understand one thing. Force. (Wilson slammed open his car door, striking Brown solidly in the leg and glancing off Johnson's leg before the door swung back shut on Wilson. He then reached out his driver's side window and, using his left arm, grabbed Brown by the neck to try to pull him into the car. Brown pushed back against the side of the car trying to free himself from Wilson's grasp. At some point during the altercation, Wilson had unholstered his weapon with his right hand and drawn it from his holster. He now points his weapon at the bigger of the two (Brown) and tells him , "I'll shoot you.&quot But the bigger one continues to resist him. WTF? Who does this n*****r think he is? (Wilson started to say, "I'll shoot you" again, but his gun went off before he could get the words out.) Wilson now knows he must kill Brown or his career in law enforcement will be over and he will face jail time, his dreams of the good life with his fiancee all dust and ashes. (He fired once more from inside the car while Brown tried to push the gun away. The bullet grazes Brown's thumb, leaving a spatter of blood, tissue and DNA. Brown took off running and Wilson gave pursuit, firing several shots at Brown from behind, only one of which struck Brown.)

If my theory is correct, Wilson premeditated Brown's murder and thus could be charged with Murder in the First Degree.

Sorry for the Faulknerian stream of consciousness stuff. The OP sort of forced it upon me.

[Chipala]

112. Thank you. If he didnt steal anything whats the big deal?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

68. So, now you are saying that Johnson didn't see what was happening?

Cigarillos to use for blunts. They were going to the store for blunts. It's all there in the testimony. Johnson said it never dawned on him that Brown was going to steal.

[KingCharlemagne]

76. You're being willfully obtuse. One possible reason why Brown never displayed any

'consciousness of guilt' is that, in Brown's mind, he had stolen nothing. What Johnson saw or thought he saw and what Johnson thought about Brown's mindset are pretty much irrelevant to the question of Brown's 'consciousness of guilt' (or lack thereof).

Giving you the benefit of the doubt for the moment, and assuming "Cigarillos to use for blunts" is your answer to my question about exactly what you are alleging that Brown stole, exactly how many cigarillos are you alleging that Brown stole? What was or is their dollar value?? For Brown to be convicted of anything in court, the charge will have to be specific and not gross calumny.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

84. Read the testimony

I can't remember exactly how many he took, but I believe that Johnson states how many.

And it doesn't matter how many he took - no amount would make it a death penalty offense.

[KingCharlemagne]

94. I've read Volume 4 many times. Johnson says only that Brown took 'a handful'. Brown

never says how many, although there were enough that Mike Brown could split them up and carry them in both hands.

If there was an actual theft, what was stolen? The police got it wrong. It was NOT a box of Swisher Sweets.

BTW, speaking of 'read the testimony,' please explain why you take Johnson's account as gospel when it come to Brown stealing from the store but discount his testimony about the encounter with Wilson. Johnson's testimony about the encounter with Wilson makes it absolutely clear that the cigarillos had NOTHING to do with it. Your cherry-picking of Johnson's testimony is pretty transparent and loudly bespeaks bad faith.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

146. They've been asked that question repeatedly in this very thread. Yet still no answer. The

the testimony is credible when it fits the OP's trolling but when it doesn't.......

[OneGrassRoot]

39. Here is what I do know:

We are fully entitled to expect a higher standard of behavior regarding use of good judgment and accountability from law enforcement than teenage boys, and that nonviolent though perhaps sometimes illegal poor judgment often displayed by teenagers should not result in death at the hands of law enforcement or anyone else with a gun.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

47. I agree with that.

Stealing does not carry a death sentence.

[Rex]

49. Exactly. I don't understand why that is so hard for grown adult to figure out.

I guess some here value Wilson's freedom over Brown's life. That is the only conclusion I can come to.

[loyalsister]

44. It matters- to a defense

It was not relevant to whether Wilson's behavior should be considered criminal. The prosecutor put the victim on trial and far too many people have been convinced that it was appropriate.

[Lars39]

45. I'm more concerned with how the police think in that town.

They seemed to harass and stop the black residents for any little thing. Look at 'em cross-eyed and you're probably arrested for threatening them or something. I'd like to hear more about what all the fines and warrants were about.

[BootinUp]

54. excellent reply nt.

[hexola]

46. You make it sound like he walked right out of the store and enountered Wilson...

Brown was shot on a less busy street - and may have been merely crossing diagonally...the long way.

He was not on the street where the shoplifting occurred.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

50. It would help if people actually read the testimony

He was not jaywalking - walking diagonally across an intersection. He was walking down the center line of the road. Johnson admits that a couple of cars passed them, and there were witnesses in other cars when the incident happened. I believe Johnson stated that he asked for a ride from one of the owners, when he ran from the scene.

[Wella]

53. Do you have a link to the testimony?

And especially to that portion.

Thanks!

[KingCharlemagne]

83. You'll want to look at Volume 4 of the GJ testimony. Here's a good link

to it:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1371051-grand-jury-volume-4.html

FWIW, Volume 5 contains Wilson's self-serving fable.

[Wella]

85. Much obliged.

Good source.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

118. Sorry I didn't give you the link

but glad you have it.

[Wella]

119. Thanks.

You know I read somewhere that Michael Brown had actually been to that same convenience store at 1:00 AM the night before trying to buy liquor. He didn't have an ID and the store clerk wouldn't let him buy it.

[Spazito]

52. Your OP is disingenuous, to say the least...

I have read your previous posts and they have consistently defended wilson, the Grand Jury decision and you never wanted "to understand that mindset" at all, you accepted all that was done as justified.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

62. Actually, I believe that both men were at fault

Seeing Brown's behavior in this store, I tend to believe that he was physical with the cop.

I also don't believe that Wilson should have shot at him as he was running away. That was his first mistake, and why he should have been charged with something. What, I don't know.

I, also, believe that Brown was running back towards Johnson because the autopsy testimony squares with that, as does some of the witness testimony.

I just don't see it as clearcut as many here do. I believe Wilson abused his power as a police officer, and should not have fired his weapon once Brown was running away. What happened in the car? I can't say.

[Spazito]

81. Well.....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=107774

http://election.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=107789

I don't believe you.

[KingCharlemagne]

69. I would go one step further and say that this OP was done in

bad faith, purporting to be an effort to 'understand' when it is really just one more effort to slander the dead.

[Spazito]

72. I completely agree...

the previous posts from the OP poster back up your perspective.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

74. Actually, it was in response

to every accusation of racism. The more one tries to question and understand, the more one is accused of racism on here.

[KingCharlemagne]

77. Sure it was :sarcasm: - nt

[Rex]

79. Funny, you don't mention racism even once in your OP.

Moving the goal posts are we?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

88. Anyone not believing that Wilson was 100% culpable has been accused of being a racist

but some of us see that there were two people likely at fault, here. As for Wilson - how much culpability and to what level of criminal offense that culpability rises to, I don't know.

I believe Wilson acted wrongly when he continued to shoot as Wilson ran away. He should have waited for backup.

I don't know what happened at the car door, but seeing Brown's behavior in the store and the mixed witness testimony, I would give the officer the benefit of the doubt. I don't think this young man was acting very rationally that day.

As for the shooting once Wilson turned around, that - to me - is the crux of the matter. Should it have gone to trial or should it not? It would have been better had there been a trial, but would Wilson have been convicted?

[cpamomfromtexas]

110. You are correct!

Those that are on here all day every day, seem to have an issue with white people.

[noiretextatique]

128. indeed, but this poster may be clueless and not realize it

which is common among some white americans.

[MineralMan]

55. No, it doesn't matter at all, and for many reasons.

In the first place, Brown was unarmed throughout the entire sequence of events. Even if he stole some stuff and shoved someone when leaving the store, that is not a capital offense. Even if he refused to stop walking in the middle of the street, defying the demands of a police officer is not a capital offense.

There were no capital offenses committed by Michael Brown. And yet, he's dead, shot in the street. You are not getting this at all. No harm would have been done had the cop just shrugged and left those kids to walk down the middle of the street. The real offence here that ended up with Michael Brown dead in the street was that he defied a cop. He refused to do something a cop told him to do. The cop escalated the situation.

There is a time to just let the kid walk on. This was that time. Michael Brown is dead because a bigoted cop could not stand the idea of some young black kid defying him. That is the bottom line here.

A boy is dead who should not be dead. Nothing he did warranted being shot to death on the street. End of story.

[Rex]

59. Excellent post.

I also find it odd that none of the shell casings ended up in the car during the alleged struggle for the pistol. Amazing that both shells landed outside the car and that there was no blood on the inside of the car, just the exterior drivers side.

[MineralMan]

64. There are many odd things about what happened.

This focus on what happened in that store and what Michael Brown might have been thinking is simply bullshit that leads away from the real situation that unfolded there. It's yet another attempt to justify what is unjustifiable, in my opinion. Michael Brown should not be dead. He is dead because some asshole cop got pissed off at him for not doing what he was told; for not saying, "Yassuh, Massa."

I'm sick of attempts to make this anything other than what it is.

[Rex]

70. Me too.

Thanks for speaking up for the dead. I think this has left a bitter taste in most of our mouths. Justice denied.

Another dead black teen that was just walking home.

[WinkyDink]

107. B.I.N.G.O.

[XemaSab]

66. No blood on the inside of the car?

That's not true.

"Another important piece of evidence comes from DNA analysis. It revealed that Brown's blood was on Officer Wilson's gun (a Sig Sauer P229) and on the inside of his police vehicle."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/11/25/366575509/ferguson-documents-the-physical-evidence

[Rex]

71. Thanks, I had read there was no blood inside the SUV.

Just on the outside on both the drivers door and the door behind the driver.

[uppityperson]

137. Exactly. It doesn't matter if any of those "if"s were real or not, he was killed for a non-capital

offense. He was killed because the bigoted cop could not stand the idea of a black teen defying him.

[LeftOfWest]

58. Just STOP.

You are going to extremes to defend the murderer WIlson every single day.

This post is beyond sickening.

You are desperate to make the victim out to be the cause of his own murder.

Nothing is further from the truth.

The racist cop murdered that teenager, your spin will never change that.

delete this crap.

Sick, just sick.

[abelenkpe]

61. O puleeze

Why you insist on trolling this site with this type of FOX news BS. Yay! You want to understand, you care....no you do not! You're a judgmental troll posting right wing talking points.

[Smarmie Doofus]

73. Some people demand a simple narrative.

The idea that Brown's behavior could have contributed , in some way --- however small---- to the shooting is not something that can be emotionally processed.

It introduces complexity... and therefore ambiguity.... when what is yearned for is a simple, iconic story of good vs. evil.

Alas, the truth is "rarely plain and never simple." ( O. Wilde? Someone like that.)

Very similar phenomenon to Zimmerman turning out to be Latino ( oops!).... w. a documented history of publicly calling out the local white police chief for violating the rights of a homeless black citizen.

Racism and police misbehavior are very real phenomena. They are also very complicated.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

82. Thank you.

Do I think that Wilson acted improperly?

I strongly believe that he escalated things even farther when he shot "at" Brown as he was fleeing.

I also believe the autopsy reports that Wilson shot and hit Brown as Brown was facing him.

According to grand jury testimony, Wilson started to back up as he was firing, so he could have believed that Brown was getting too close.

How close is too close? I don't know.

I just know that I can believe that Brown might have been the aggressor at the car. I don't know that, but based on his demeanor in the store, I could believe it as a possibility, so I'm giving the Wilson the benefit of the doubt as to what happened at the car.

I just don't believe that Wilson should have shot at Brown as he was pursuing him.

Nothing about this case is clear cut to me, except the fact that a family is mourning the death an eighteen year old family member.

[uppityperson]

138. How is Brown the "aggressor at the car" when Wilson was the one who pulled up, then backed up fast

to harass Brown? How the fuck does that make Michael "the aggressor"?

"I'm giving the Wilson the benefit of the doubt as to what happened at the car"

And there it is.

[TheKentuckian]

141. What "behavior" earned a hail of bullets? The answer Is of course none so

the "complexity" and "ambiguity" are properly identified as smokescreen for the benefit of the person pulling the trigger.

I'm also comfortable stating that if the shoe was on the other foot and we were talking about a citizen that blasted on a cop we'd see white hot anger from the current seekers of "complexity" if someone was sifting the sands for "ambiguity" the way these kats are here.

[locdlib]

78. no, you are not at all interested in michael's mindset. you're a troll. mike brown is dead because

Wilson murdered him in broad daylight. once you muck through your shit for brains ponderings, you should be able to figure out that you will never know the mindset of a dead person. fuck out of here with that bullshit.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

86. I have more posts than you do.

Just because someone says something you don't like, doesn't make them a troll, but I think you know that.

[locdlib]

87. nobody gives a shit about your number of posts. what's that got to do with your fucked up topic?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

89. You would be better off putting me on ignore

if you can't remain civil.

Good bye.

[locdlib]

93. you mean it would be better for you, cause i'm real good. you can't rationally explain

your ridiculous post, so you want me to leave you alone. since you feel comfortable in telling me to put you on ignore, i'm even more comfortable telling you to stop making posts that you think people can't see through. people on DU are very smart and your ignorance will get you checked every single time.

[mike dub]

114. "I have more posts than you do."

I declare, I think you just won some kind of award for lamest online retort ever, NoCattle.
Eom

[Maedhros]

90. The events leading up to Brown being stopped by Wilson are of no relevance.

Stopping Brown is not the problem. Killing him after he ran away is the problem.

It doesn't matter if Brown had murdered the shopkeeper. We have due process of law under our Constitution. We do not have summary execution.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

96. Of course, it matters

The state of mind of both victim and accused matters.

And we don't execute anyone who steals or shoplifts. Period.

[Maedhros]

97. Wilson did. [n/t]

[uppityperson]

140. Wilson did. eom

[Tsiyu]

95. What happened on the bridge matters...

What about ^^THIS^^ guy's mindset?

He is armed and pointing his weapon at law enforcement.

Can you explain why he is alive?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

98. No, I can't

But I'm pretty sure we can both agree his butt should be sitting in jail.

Why those folks got off while others were burned alive in Waco, I cannot say.

[Tsiyu]

99. Could it be a racial thing? n/t

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

108. Both groups were white

nt

[Tsiyu]

135. I'm referring to the parties with "questionable mindsets." n/t

[smiley]

100. Has it been proven in a court of law...

that Micheal Brown was in that video?

In all due respect, I think you're asking all the wrong questions.

[KT2000]

102. Teen-ager

where I grew up - Seattle, the police routinely hassled teenage guys. If they were drinking a carton of chocolate milk - they would pour it out on the street. If they were parked somewhere - they were told to leave etc. Some kids ended up being taken into custody. There were guys who would stand up to them by smart mouthing or shoving, but most did not. Either way - no one was killed. The cops apparently were not so on edge or challenged they would pursue a smart mouthed kid or one who shoved him - to his death.
It is a behavior of some teenage guys - I would guess they are alpha males.

[WinkyDink]

104. Re-read Wilson's words. HIS mind-set is what interests me, as he deliberately hassled a person he

could see was larger than he, an observation that looms large in his testimony.

A man with a gun once again pretends to the world that he was at a disadvantage to a younger and unarmed and now SHOT DEAD male. Young men whom the armed men decided ought to be walking elsewhere.

The Skittles and the cigarillos are attempts at distraction, like a deadly game of 3-Card Monty. Do you want to be the sucker?

[BootinUp]

105. YES because We must Defend the honor of the Ferguson Police force!

[elleng]

113. I can't answer many of your questions but

keep in mind wilson told Brown + his friend to 'Get the fuck out of the street' or somesuch, NOT the statement of a proper 'peace officer.'

[B Calm]

120. Only one DU Rec,

gee I wonder why?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

121. Do you think I care that I haven't been absorbed into the DU borg?

I think only one or two people have tried to explain. Others have attacked me or flat out denied the obvious because it's all or nothing. People who question or have various other opinions get shut out. They won't participate.

Me - I can live without this place.

Participating in this board will do nothing to get us universal healthcare, universal preschool, better protection of the environment, and my most important hill to die on - get us out of the stupid wars and stop spending so much money on the military.

But I digress.

And, now, I'll go spend a lovely day with my family.

Bye.

[B Calm]

122. Bye

[R B Garr]

123. "flat out denied the obvious" Then explain the obvious

according to you.

I've seen you ask this type thing before. So why don't you cut the crap and tell everyone what you think is "the obvious." Oh, I bet I know.

[noiretextatique]

130. bye

[uppityperson]

139. "I'm giving the Wilson the benefit of the doubt as to what happened at the car"

your quote. You are giving the man who killed a black teen the benefit of the doubt for harassing, shooting, instigating an incident in which he was able to then say he was scared and had no other option but to shoot the teen.

[noiretextatique]

129. 2 now...and i can guess who they are

the usual suspect.

[nc4bo]

127. WTF?!

[logosoco]

131. No one can say that Brown wasn't scared.

We don't know that.
If you listen to wilson's story, you may be asking yourself "Could Brown have been angry that he got caught?" Possibly. But do you really think he was so angry that he beat the cop? I don't see the evidence. The after picture of the cop did not look like he had been beat up. They did not check the gun for prints, we can't be sure Brown really reached for it. That's wilson's story. They say there was DNA, but that doesn't mean he was grabbing it all all.

To me, that is just a story. And not even one I would find interesting or believable in a book or movie.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it is the cops mindset we need to be thinking about. From what I read of the testimony, he was not in a good frame of mind. Much more scary than a young man who was worried about getting caught for shoplifting.

Even if Brown was in a fit of rage (and no, I don't believe that), there were a thousand other ways for the cop to deal with it without shooting.

[truedelphi]

133. ^^^^^^^^^^^n/t

[azmom]

136. I don't believe Brown reached for the

Gun or charged at the officer.

[GeorgeGist]

134. You'll never understand.

[locdlib]

143. and now texasmomma has taken umbrage and is, gasp, leaving.

well, leaving is the only option he/she has after making a complete fool of self. as they say in texas, "bless yo heart."