RE-READ FROM BEGINNING: Remember that "I, Claudius" scene where Livia tells him that

[Derek V]

Last edited Wed Dec 3, 2014, 04:43 PM - Edit history (2)

Caligula's going to be the next Emperor, whether he (or Romans in general) like it or not? Well, that's what I think of when people here talk about Warren or Sanders or O'Malley beating Hillary in '16.


ON EDIT: Having just finished reading the comments, it's clear that I've commited the sin of "Failure to Communicate." I would INFINITELY prefer Senator Sanders over Secretary Clinton as our 2016 nominee! I would also, if pressed, choose Sen. Warren or Gov. O'Malley over HRC, even though I worry about their level of experirnce. I AM DEFINITELY A MEMBER OF THE ABC CLUB!

But let me give you a movie refence: In 2008, the Clinton campaign was Governor Tarkin in the original Star Wars, arrogantly convinced that his Death Star was invincible. But in The Empire Strikes Back, the bad guys have obviously learned from Tarkin's destruction, which is why the Rebel forces don't do as well. This, I fear, is the film we'll see unfold in 2016. As for any comparison between Hillary and Caligula, is used that metric to illustrate that, sadly this time, Clinton really IS inevitable.

[zazen]

1. you think Obama's choosing Hillary because she'll be more despised than he is?

That's the rationale Livia gives Claudius for the astrologer's prediction--that it's Tiberius' vanity that will cause him to choose Caligula to succeed him.

But then there's always the Oracle Claudius visited in the beginning of the series, who prophesied that what will 'be given thee, is something all desire but he."

Let's focus on that instead. (Of course, his successor was Nutso, but I'll ignore that part of history).

I'm such a nerd I actually own the 13-part VHS series as well as the streaming one on Amazon! Love me some _I, Claudius,_ which HBO/BBC bought and was supposed to remake in 2013 but nothing has come of it yet. Hard to top the acting in the first one, though the production values were a step up from high school.

[Cleita]

7. I would like to see an updated version.

The sets and costumes were pretty cheesy, but you are right the actors will be hard to replace, the most famous being Dereck Jacobi and and a young Patrick Stewart with hair.

[zazen]

13. and Germanicus and Castor were both on Downton Abbey! and there's Livilla/Rocky Horror

The older actors were outstanding too. John Castle, Sian Philips, Margaret Hale, Bernard Hepton . . .

And John Hurt in a blond wig as Caligula--just a year or two before his role in Alien. He captured the psychology of narcissism in that performance brilliantly.

[Seeking Serenity]

36. Don't forget Brian Blessed as Augustus

Love "I, Claudius."

[zazen]

38. well, I felt he was weirdly cast, I guess, but he is a great actor

And his whistling in syncopation in Episode 4 really bothered me. I mean, research your era. It wasn't 1920!

Neither his nor Simon Woods' asperger's-ish interpretation (in HBO's 2005-7 Rome) of Augustus' character really worked for me. I actually thought Max Pirkus playing him as a teenager came closer to it. Simon Woods went overboard with conveying coldness, but Brian Blessed's charming Augustus just didn't seem capable of the acts he committed.

I clearly need a life. Or a special interest group on DU devoted to British period dramas!

[Seeking Serenity]

39. "Or a special interest group on DU devoted to British period dramas!"

You and I could be charter members.

[Hekate]

2. Seriously. Hillary = Caligula? Please justify that statement in any way you possibly can. nt

[True Blue Door]

3. Hillary = Nixon. Bush was Caligula.

[zazen]

4. "Little Boots" (I doubt W could distinguish between the Republic & the Empire)

[True Blue Door]

6. I doubt W could point out Europe on a map.

Or understand the concept of a map, for that matter.

But let's face it, Hillary is Nixon. And that's the best we can hope from her - that somehow she might stop self-sabotaging long enough to win a nationwide election, and spend the next four years behaving like a paranoid monarch rather than a President.

Might get some decent legislation out of her between the Shining-like torrents of blood she would unleash in Republican-appeasing wars (and I don't mean drone campaigns - I mean stuff Cheney would approve of), but even then nothing too impressive; certainly nothing that would qualify her for LBJ status as a warmongering domestic hero.

[Hekate]

9. So Hillary = Nixon? Just out of curiosity, are you old enough to remember not voting for Nixon?

Again, please justify this comparison is any way you possibly can.

[True Blue Door]

44. Nope. wasn't alive at the time. I read just books and talk to people.

Hillary is a selfish, entitled bully whose politics all revolve around how she sees herself personally - what America owes her, and how unworthy other people to serve her. Her ideas play second fiddle to that narcissistic dream world centered on herself.

And some of those ideas are pretty heinous - she essentially subscribes to messianic neoconservatism (aka, fascism) as a means to reshape the world "for the better" by destroying any weak country whose economic policies are inconvenient. She does not consider the Iraq War a failure, and in fact blames President Obama for withdrawing; from her view, his withdrawl was the failure. Yeah, she's a fucking nutjob, and she thinks Republicans are fundamentally right about American values on most fronts.

She has publicly expressed oppenness to torture being legitimate under some circumstances. She feels the need to distance herself from her own Party and apologize for our crazy opposition to wars of aggression, torture, and other things that basic humanity makes despicable.

She's a weak, selfish, vindictive, and ridiculous person who hates her own party.

Richard Nixon was a lot like that, and even a lot of Republicans would use similar terms.

[Hekate]

45. So you detest HRC -- but you don't really "know" Tricky Dick.

[True Blue Door]

47. I know more about Nixon than most people who lived during his presidency.

Certainly more than the fucknuts who voted for him.

[zazen]

5. Augustus presided over the transition from Republic to Empire

He was exceptionally competent, exceeded only by Aurelius I think.

If we're looking for analogies, I'd say we haven't had that Emperor yet. We're in the stage where the Republic is an oligarchic farce and no one wants to admit we're in an Empire. Augustus just nudged everyone along a bit long the road to acceptance with the First Citizen bit.

[Posteritatis]

12. It feels kinda Gracchi-y out there at times. (nt)

[FarPoint]

8. This thread topic belongs in the SyFi Forum...

If we had one that is.....

[Hekate]

10. Still waiting for the OP himself to justify Hillary = Caligula. Please proceed. nt

[CBGLuthier]

11. The really sad thing is not so much that Hillary has been anointed as

that i bet 90 percent have never seen I, Claudius.

[Katashi_itto]

14. I like the comparison, Hillary = Caligula.

[greatlaurel]

15. This is a disgusting post.

I would suggest everyone actually watch the series to see how wrong you are.

[Hekate]

16. It's disgusting in more ways than one. I'm not necessarily going to support HRC in the primaries...

...but these kinds of baseless fact-free smears are vomitous. In the Democratic Party, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

[geek tragedy]

17. This thread jumped the Sharknado. nt

[riqster]

34. Best. Reply. Ever.

[Hekate]

41. What started as smear ended as unintentional comedy, & those writing drama reviews...

...have the best handle on it. The OP cannot be taken seriously.

However, the OP might enjoy another venue than DU for his/her efforts while developing his/her skills.

[hrmjustin]

18. Unrec!

[Derek V]

19. KICKING FOR CLARITY!

I wonder: How many people alerted on this thread?

[Hekate]

20. I wonder: if you are ever going to clarify your smear with citations and sources.

[Derek V]

21. Wow

Did you read the edit's last sentence? I am NOT suggesting that Hillary and ol' Cal share the same personality!

[Hekate]

22. You changed your OP considerably. Still--wow--Real Life is Not A Movie.Further, invoking Caligula...

... a historical figure of notorious viciousness and probable insanity, in reference to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's probable US presidential aspirations, really begs the question WHY you would make that comparison.

Apparently you have no answer to that. Some in this thread seem captivated by the comparison and have added their own, to Richard Nixon. References to torrents of blood and Cheney-approved behavior came up in that regard. There's been no justification for that claim either.

So, kiddies, I'm left with the impression that some of you detest the woman but really fall short in your ability to articulate why, so you fall back on movie references and references to historical villains both recent and ancient. That's a smear, not an argument. You'll have to do better than that if you have a candidate you prefer -- such as pointing out the superiority of your own candidate rather than rehashing New Gingrich's viler fantasies.

[Derek V]

24. Yo, Hek, I'm gonna say this ONE MORE TIME, OKAY?

I. Am. Not. Saying. Or. Suggesting. In. Any. Way. Shape. Or. Form. That. Hillary. Rodham. Clinton. Shares. ANY. Personality. Traits. Or. Motivations. Of. The. Roman. Emperor. Caligula.

Sir/Madam, I truly don't know how to make this any clearer.

[Tanuki]

27. If you aren't really suggesting this, you could "make it clearer"

by deleting your offensive OP and spending more time thinking through the implications of your analogies in the future.

[Derek V]

28. You have GOT to be trolling me now!

Consider yourself Ignored!

[baldguy]

29. Saying Hillary = Caligula, then saying that you're not being anti-Hillary is trolling.

By definition.

[LanternWaste]

42. I'm in agreement-- you most likely don't know how to make it any more clear.

After reading your OP, I'm in agreement-- you most likely don't know how to make it any more clear. For assistance, try The Elements of Style-- asserting that one must first know the rules to break them, it gives in brief space, the principal requirements of plain English style.

[Derek V]

43. You seem to be repeating yourself

Generally, the rule is that one's header should differ completely from the text. But hey, maybe you've never been paid for anything you've written.

I have. And I don't need lectures from hypervigilant ideologues.

(Dang, this thread is truly revealing to me vis-a-vis which DUers to place on Ignore.)

[baldguy]

23. To equate Hillary with Caligula the the perpetuation of a vicious RW slander.

Too many supposed "progressives" continue to do it, and it's sickening.

[Derek V]

25. See Above!

[randome]

26. "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out."

Politics. It's a messy, degenerative process.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[misterhighwasted]

30. Why is this disgusting opinion piece still showing up on DU?

You can dislike Hillary Clinton but to equate her to a horrid Caligula has no basis, no point & belongs in the trash list of GOP Rag talking points.
My god this is way out of line for DU. Makes me sick to see this trash piece still available for viewing.
DU standards do not support this trash opinion post.

[Derek V]

31. SEE EDITED VERSION OF OP!

Also, read my replies to Hekate.

[misterhighwasted]

32. No thanks. I've read enough. This is sick.

[Derek V]

33. None So Blind as he who WILL NOT SEE

Consider yourself Ignored, and get back under your bridge! Your refusal to read an explanation freely offered and willingly given tells me all I need to know about you! GOODBYE!

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. The thing is, you never replied to zazen, who gave the accurate summary of the scene

which is here, around 31:45, if anyone wants to watch:

The point is that, as zazen said, it was the current emperor, Tiberius, who was going to inevitably choose Caligula, to have someone even more hated than him. That doesn't fit your analogy. More than that, Caligula is the surprise choice at that stage - Castor is still alive, and Caligula has 2 older brothers alive.

So this all looked more like a chance to liken Hillary to Caligula than a meaningful analogy.

[riqster]

35. Rule One of Communication: Don't blame the audience.

Since the majority of respondents didn't get your point, it would perhaps better make your case if you were to rewrite the OP than to get pissed at the reading public.

[Derek V]

40. "Having just finished reading the comments,

it's clear that I've commited the sin of "Failure to Communicate."

I did indeed re-write the op.

[cherokeeprogressive]

46. Do yourself a serious favor... delete this tripe, call this a learning experience, and move on.

Otherwise I expect your short stay here will not be pleasant.

[Derek V]

48. Talking against the Soviet, am I?

And the singular is correct, by the way. Look, I've done my best to explain myself and correct my poorly-communicated op. But those here who insist on not reading my explanatory posts while clinging to their original misperceptions are, quite frankly, no better than FOX "News" acolytes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

49. Quite frankly, you are being insulting to DUers, and your analogy is shit

In the program, as shown, Caligula is far from the expected successor, for most people. But you continue to insist that there's something in common between Hillary and Caligula. It looks like you just want to insult her.