BBC: Kenya rangers shoot dead five suspected poachers (110lbs. of elephant ivory recovered)

[Poll_Blind]

From BBC:
[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0.3077em 0.3077em 0em 0em; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]Kenya rangers shoot dead five suspected poachers[div class="excerpt" style="border-left: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-right: 1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius: 0em 0em 0.3077em 0.3077em; background-color: #f4f4f4; box-shadow: 2px 2px 6px #bfbfbf;"]Wildlife rangers have shot dead five suspected ivory poachers during a gun battle in western Kenya. Two rangers were hurt during the battle in West Pokot county, said officials from Kenya's Wildlife Service (KWS). They said 50kg (110lb) of elephant tusks and AK-47 rifles were recovered.

Kenya has recently taken a more aggressive stance against poaching as it combats a surge in demand for ivory from Asia in spite a long-standing ban on the international trade.

KWS spokesman Paul Udoto said on Saturday that rangers were determined to make poaching "a high-cost, low-benefit activity".

The article goes on to state that about 100 elephants are illegally killed each year and that elephant ivory is smuggled to Asia to use in jewelry and ornaments.

Fuck poachers. Fuck them like Blackwater mercenaries.

PB

[xchrom]

1. Du rec. Nt

[cbayer]

2. Good for them. These poachers are relentless and have to be eliminated.

[Schema Thing]

3. sell their teeth

scumbags

[TheWraith]

15. Properly speaking, tusks aren't teeth. But we understand your point. nt

[frogmarch]

20. They're second incisors, the incisors we have on

either side of our front incisors. Elephants don't have first incisors, just second incisors/tusks.

[bloomington-lib]

4. Remove the dead poachers teeth and send that to an Asian jeweler that processes ivory

[roguevalley]

5. china is pushing animals into extinction

Kenya has had shoot to kill for a long time

[malaise]

10. China?

Weren't Spanish royalty caught killing elephants?

Weren't Trump's sons seen posing with dead animals in Africa?

[Drahthaardogs]

11. Legal hunting and safari, while not popular here, has proven to be a boon to wildlife populations

While you may not like what Trump sons did, it likely HELPED the populations of animals in those areas.

[cali]

50. nope. wrong. wrong and wrong. I was just reading

yesterday that that is a fallacy. so YOU made the claim. back it up.

and not from some right ring dog shit source please.

[Drahthaardogs]

66. Here ya go Hoss

http://www.savetheelephants.org/news-reader/items/hunting-can-help-protect-wildlife-40south-africa41.html


That should be non-right-wing-dog-shit enough for you.

[progressoid]

19. Elephant and rhino poaching 'is driven by China's economic boom'

Elephant and rhino poaching 'is driven by China's economic boom'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/14/china-boom-fuels-africa-poaching

[freshwest]

38. Proves again that wealth is wasted on the rich, like the Trumps, etc.

[roguevalley]

72. rhino horn and bear bile go to china. tons of the trade in

dead animals goes to china. to speak about the two idiots you spoke of is correct. to ignore the horrible impact of chinese demand isn't.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

6. Check to see if one of the suspected poachers is named Dick Cheney...

He has a brand new heart and is probably just itching to shoot something.

[lonestarnot]

33. Or Ted catscratch mcnutwit the bear poacher.

[PearliePoo2]

7. Yes, screw them AND...

the people that create the ivory market in the first place.
This ranks right up there with the ridiculous belief that rhino horns have magical healing powers or the ability to make your "wee-wee" bigger.
Disgusting.

[Drahthaardogs]

8. I hate poaching but I am not going to cheer the death

of five likely poor men who were trying to find a way to feed their families. You guys are fucking gruesome. The poachers are very much the victims here as well. If you were starving you mean you would not try to kill an animal to feed your kids? Show the same anger against the Chinese and demand we quit importing their shit instead of dancing on the graves of some poor men.

[Kaleva]

21. There are other articles that talk about poachers.

Last edited Sat Apr 21, 2012, 10:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Some are well organized and very well equipped. Others are extremely poor. In one article I read, a pair of poachers wore shoes made of tire treads and were armed with spears. They had to stab the elephant 23 times in order to kill it.

Edited for clarity.

[Drahthaardogs]

67. So well equipped they had to spear an elephant. Really?

In shoes made out of old tires? That is well equipped to you? What the hell do you buy your kids for school supplies? Pieces of charcoal for pencils and a slate for writing?

[Kaleva]

68. Sorry, my writing was bad

what I meant was that some poachers are well equipped. Others, such as the pair I described, are so poor they have shoes made of tire treads and hunt the elephants with spears. I'll edit my post to make it more clear.

[justabob]

16. if they were worried about feeding their families

they might hunt better game for eating, no? Its not like they take the meat from the animals. (I realize that the tusks bring more money ergo more food) I get your point, but really..... They are doing more harm to more people (and the animals) by poaching the elephants. I can't dredge up much sympathy for them, they are basically assassins. A lot of these places depend on the animals to bring the tourists and their money to support everyone... you know?

[progressoid]

17. Nice try.

These "poor men" are getting well compensated for their crimes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17675816

In Kinshasa, the capital of DRC, poached ivory is openly on sale at large, unregulated markets.

While traders were wary of being filmed by a BBC TV crew, a Chinese undercover reporter working for Panorama quickly attracted the attention of sellers, using the Chinese word for ivory to good effect.

The reporter was offered whole raw ivory tusks in one market, including one giant piece about 1.5m long for $10,000 (£6,000)

[TheWraith]

18. A lot of criminals start out poor.

That doesn't mean that the guy trying to carjack you deserves a hug, and these guys are a hell of a lot less wholesome even than that.

[Poll_Blind]

28. Can't feed your family with 110lbs of ivory, but you could with 1,000lbs of elephant meat.

If they were starving, as you imply, why did they leave the meat to rot, I wonder?



PB

[cbayer]

31. While I share your sentiment about gravedancing, these people are very bad and need to be stopped.

I feel the same about pirates.

I recently visited the orphanage in Nairobi where the infants of some of these murdered elephants are taken and saved. That these incredible and extremely social animals are being killed for their tusks is despicable and whatever needs to be done to stop them needs to be done.

[Johnny Rico]

32. Pirates attack human beings. Poachers attack non-human animals.

Bit of a difference, there.

these murdered elephants

You can no more murder an elephant than you can murder a mosquito.

[cbayer]

34. Having spent some time around groups of elephants, I will maintain that this is murder.

Mosquitos, on the other hand.....

[MineralMan]

36. A very interesting distinction.

You like elephants, so it is murder to kill them. You dislike mosquitoes, so it is OK to kill them. I get it now.

[Johnny Rico]

37. So if someone kills an elephant with malice aforethought, what should the penalty be?

Life in prison without parole?

What other non-human animals deserve such legal protection? Lions?

Deer?

Ducks?

Frogs?

If not...why not?

[cbayer]

40. That's for the people who oversee the area and the animals within it to decide.

East Africans have made a very clear decision about this and they intend to enforce it. This movement is driven, in large part, by the aboriginal people. They, imho, are the ones who deserve the most respect. They understand the land, the animals, who is in danger, what is needed for survival (for both the people and the animals) and why enforcement is imperative.

Killing an elephant for it's tusks has been outlawed. Those that break this law risk the penalties, including death.

[Johnny Rico]

42. They certainly have the right to determine their own laws, yes. But...

As I read the story, the poachers weren't killed because they killed some elephants, but rather because they violently resisted arrest (the story speaks of a gun battle). That being the case, there is no death penalty for killing elephants, any more than there's a death penalty in the U.S. for bank robbery...but robbing a bank can get you killed!

In any case, I sill don't understand exactly where you're coming from; you consider the killing of an elephant to murder, but not the killing of a mosquito. What is your criteria for determining this sort of thing? Is it murder to kill a lion?

A deer?

A duck?

A frog?

In each case, if not, why not? I'm really curious as to your answer.

[cbayer]

45. I guess the bottom line for me would be whether the creature were presenting

a threat to me. A mosquito does. I am its prey and I would maintain a right to defend myself.

There is no bright line here. All I can say is that a herd of elephants bears some remarkable resemblance to human social groups. I feel the same about chimpanzees, dolphins and other groups. To kill them gratuitously is wrong, imo. And hunting for food or other necessary elements for survival is a whole other argument.

But picking off an elephant just to take to take ivory is despicable. While there is no death penalty per se, the poachers know the risk they take. I am not a supporter of the death penalty, but it has been seriously discussed in both East Africa and India and, I believe, is already the law in China.

[Johnny Rico]

47. The problem is that when you use the term "murder" to describe the killing of an animal, it has a

very specific legal meaning. From what I've gathered, you would describe the trophy hunting of a grizzly bear as "murder".

If it were in your power, what would be the penalty for taking such a trophy in the U.S.?

Hunters kill hundreds of thousands of deer and ducks every year; they don't pose the slightest threat to the hunters in question. Is that murder as well if it's done for sport? If not, why not?

Is it only murder if the animal in question has social groups that resemble that of humans?

There is no bright line here.

When you describe it as "murder", you have drawn a line...hence the need for specificity.

[cbayer]

51. I understand that and was using it more for impact than for it's literal meaning.

I am not a supporter of sport hunting, so my views on this, while not supported by legislation, are just going to be my own.

[Johnny Rico]

53. Well, fair enough.

I'm just annoyed when very specific terms are bandied about incorrectly in contexts where such a specific meaning is the reasonable interpretation.

[cbayer]

54. Understood and I apologize. Will be more thoughtful (or use quote marks) in the future.

[Johnny Rico]

56. Darn it, you're being reasonable.

Now how am I supposed to get mad and type an infuriated rant?

[oneshooter]

58. While I don't believe there is, in Kenya, the death penalty for poaching per se.

At least there wasn't one when I worked there. The attitude was/is that if the poachers die while resisting arrest then thats just to bad. As for them being just "poor people trying to make a living" they are , for that area, very well paid professionals.
I hunted them for a year or so as part of a government anti-poaching team. It was interesting work.

Oneshooter

[cbayer]

61. I was just reading about the death penalty issue, and from what I see, you are correct.

Thanks for working on the anti-poaching team. I spent some time in the Mara with the Masai and they taught me much. The poachers are criminals, nothing more or less.

[oneshooter]

62. Our trackers were both Masai and Zulu, both are proud and feared peoples.

The reason I am not there anymore is the Government did not want white men killing blacks, even legally. Not really racism, but the view of the Ministers that it did not look good to the people.

Oneshooter

[cbayer]

63. I think they had a point there.

The white people, both native born and visiting, are so privileged when compared to the rest of the population. I was stunned.

I was not able to personally meet any Zulu peoples, but I will never, ever forget the Masai. To say that I have a deep and abiding respect for them doesn't come close.

[oneshooter]

64. The Zulu were trackers I brought with me from Rhodesia.

There was little love lost between them and the Masai. But they worked for me and they were loyal. I gave them a months pay as a bonus when I left.

Oneshooter

[justabob]

60. here is something else for this sub-thread

Just throwing it out there because it is interesting.

Poole and numerous colleagues have studied the disruption of complex elephant social structures. They have suggested that some animals may suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) much like humans.

"African elephant society has been decimated by mass deaths and social breakdown from poaching, culls [systematic killing to control populations], and habitat loss. Wild elephants are displaying symptoms associated with human PTSD," she wrote in a study she co-authored in a February edition of the journal Nature.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/06/0603_050603_elephants_2.html

It is an old article, but I saw a commercial for this very thing showing on NatGeo, watching ABC just a few days ago, it's absolutely horrid what they dealt with. The elephants featured on the ad i saw were caught in the middle of a civil war somewhere in Africa (sorry I cannot remember which country) Elephants have a lot of traits, including a fairly well developed intelligence, and even a sort of conscience, that distinguish them from the rest of the animal and insect world.

[11 Bravo]

48. You may maintain that "this is murder" to your heart's content. You may do so at great length.

And every time you do, you will be wrong, according to the universally accepted definition of "murder".

I abhor poachers, and I consider the slaughter of elephants for their ivory to be contemptible, and deserving of harsh punishment. But it ain't murder.

[cbayer]

49. I understand that I am technically incorrect, but will also maintain that I am

morally correct.

So I concede your point. It's not murder, per se, it's slaughter of innocents.

[Johnny Rico]

52. If elephants can be "innocent", don't they by definition have the capability of being "guilty"?

If so, the guilty ones need to be punished...yes?

[cbayer]

55. As a matter of fact, that happens.

Some males get shunned by their herds. They become solitary and, needless to say, are very, very unhappy.

The aboriginal people (and others) recognize that these elephants have the potential to be dangerously aggressive, even if not provoked.

So I guess they may be "guilty" if, for example, they kill an innocent child. And they would probably be punished by being relocated.

As a matter of speculation, they may already be being punished by their social group for bad behavior.

[Johnny Rico]

57. Only males get shunned? Discrimination! I won't have it...harumph, harumph!

I'm reminded of a documentary I saw on wolves in which a male was driven out of the pack because the alpha wolf caught him mating with a female. Before ascribing morality to the behavior of non-human animals, I think we should first consider instinct. Morality is a human invention, and I see a lot of anthropomorphism in descriptions of animal behavior.

[Duppers]

69. sonofabitch

What an ignorant, insensitive clod.

Note - I realize this will be alerted but it's the truth and I had to say it. These elephants should no more be compared to a mosquito than Jacques Cousteau to Ted Nugent.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. They feed their families elephant meat??

[SomethingFishy]

9. Were any of them named Trump? n/t

[UTUSN]

22. Or named the "king" of Spain?!1 (pic)

[Poll_Blind]

26. I wish they'd had those gun barrels up each other's asses when they pulled the trigger instead of...

...at that elephant. I'm not sure how that would work, technically, but being royalty I'm sure God imbued them with the know-how to pull it off.

PB

[Kaleva]

13. Many of the poachers are very poor and are trying to survive

A pound of ivory can go fro about $20.00 on the black market in Africa but it'll be worth about $700.00 a pound by the time it gets to China. As long as there's a trremendous demand for ivory in Asia, there will be farmers and villagers in Africa willing to risk their lives in getting it. Shooting the poor while doing next to nothing to those getting wealthy off the illegal ivory trade is a rather piss poor way of doing things.

[TheKentuckian]

14. Good! The poachers should be the hunted.

[Upton]

23. Excellent..

The only good poacher is a dead poacher..

[RebelOne]

30. I gotta agree. n/t

[Johnny Rico]

24. It's funny...post that you're glad that a murderer is dead and you'll get attacked for being a

Pro-death barbarian. Post that you're glad that someone who killed some animals is dead and you'll get applause.

[Poll_Blind]

25. The key to enjoying DU is expecting that nomatter what you post someone is going to hate you for it

Expect that if you make a post about a bluejay outside your window that morning, someone is going to take a screenshot of your post, print it out and use a red sharpie to make a big "X" on it and write the words "To be hunted down and killed" with a little, empty, check box next to it.

If you go into every post expecting that that's going to happen, any positive response or agreement you do receive will be gravy.

It's quite liberating (really!) once you get the hang o fit. You get to be you and you don't have any expectations of other users, which could potentially be a letdown.

I guarantee you'll enjoy DU 1000% more and give a shit what other people think 1000% less.

PB

[HooptieWagon]

65. Now THATS funny....

[Paladin]

35. Go Clean Your Guns And Try To Get Over It.

Talk to you next time you once more show up, defending gratuitous animal cruelty.....

[Johnny Rico]

39. Where did I defend poaching? Support your assertion or withdraw it.

[backscatter712]

59. Hey, I was singing "Ding Dong..." when Andrew Breitbart died!

So don't call me a hypocrite.

Some people are such horrible human beings (and I use the term "human being" loosely...) that they just need to fucking die.

Take me to the jury if you don't like it. That's how I fucking feel. Some people in this world need to die.

[rhett o rick]

27. Were the Trump boys involved? nm

[joeybee12]

29. Bad part is the rangers were hurt...they have a very dangerous job...

This is all around awful.

[freshwest]

41. The poachers were more than ready to kill humans. They don't sound like the victims here.

[Johnny Rico]

43. They violently resisted arrest, which is what got them killed.

[freshwest]

46. Willing to kill humans, which is what I said. You want to parse it another way, be my guest. n/t

[Duppers]

70. someone on this thread

Has the sensitivities of Ted Nugent when it comes to intelligent, complex, sensitive animals.

[Johnny Rico]

73. Oh, stop...you're making me blush.

Kiss, kiss!

[ZombieHorde]

71. Threads like this make me wonder if world peace is humanly possible. nt

[Johnny Rico]

74. Not as long as we're human. Violence is part of our nature.