Witness to fighter pilot's comments after airliner's destruction passes lie detector test.

[another_liberal]

The eyewitness who claims to have overheard a Ukrainian fighter pilot speak about shooting down the, "wrong plane," immediately after Malaysian airliner MH17 was destroyed over eastern Ukraine has passed a lie detector test concerning his comments.

Once again, allow me to caution those of you who seem determinedly unwilling to even consider this evidence with an open mind. I suggest you stop reading now and leave the commenting to those who have constructive replies to add. Thank you.

Emergencies Ministry members walk at the site of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash, MH17, near the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region, July 17, 2014. (Reuters)


Witness account of Ukraine MH17 takedown confirmed by lie detector – investigators


Russia’s Investigative Committee has confirmed the claims by a Ukrainian, who said he witnessed the deployment of a Ukrainian warplane armed with air-to-air missiles on the day the Malaysian Airlines flight MH17 was shot down. The interview was conducted on Tuesday, spokesman for the committee Vladimir Markin told the media on Wednesday. This followed a report in a Russian newspaper, in which the Ukrainian citizen, who preferred to remain anonymous, voiced his allegations.

The investigators used a polygraph during the interview, which showed no evidence of the witness lying, he added. “The facts were reported by the witness clearly and with no inconsistencies. The investigators lean towards considering them truthful. A polygraph examination confirmed them too,” the official said.

According to his account, he personally saw the plane piloted by [Ukrainian military pilot] Voloshin armed with R-60 air-to-air missiles,” Markin said. “He added there was no need for such weapons during regular air missions of the Ukrainian Air Forces because the rebel forces had no military aircraft.”

Markin said that the Investigative Committee will continue gathering and analyzing evidence perpetrating to the downing of MH17 and will share the information with the Netherlands-led international probe into the incident, “if they really interested in establishing the truth and send an inquiry.” The witness is likely to be taken into protective custody in Russia because his life may be threatened, Markin said.

(snip)


Read more and view related videos at: http://rt.com/news/217295-mh17-ukraine-military-plane/

[Archae]

1. Polygraphs are not "lie detectors."

In fact they are useless for "detecting lies."

You have any other sources besides Putin's pet "news" outlet?

I didn't think so.

[rock]

15. They are effective at detecting lies

as well a shiny new dime!

[arthritisR_US]

106. No they don't because it would not fit their meme nt

[hobbit709]

2. ANY pathological liar can pass a "lie detector" test.

One of the reasons they're not admissible as evidence in court.

[Posteritatis]

24. Or genuinely sincere, mistaken people. (nt)

[Duckhunter935]

27. correct nt

[arthritisR_US]

107. Putin and pathological liar, one and the same. nt

[TexasProgresive]

3. I don't know the truth of what happened

I would not accept hearsay testimony "supported" by a polygraph test conducted by a vested interest. This compounded by the witness being anonymous without cross examination. Since the Ukrainian rebels muddied the crime scene it is impossible to lay blame.

[nationalize the fed]

4. k/r Thanks for the updates

Keep 'em coming. One day the truth will out.

those of you who seem determinedly unwilling to even consider this evidence with an open mind.

It's amazing how many people are anti discussion on a discussion board. And how many think personal attacks = debate.

It would be one thing if the US Gov had never told a lie. But it's the opposite- when was the last time they told the truth. And of course the history can't be forgotten, by some anyway

The United States has been involved in and assisted in the overthrow of foreign governments (more recently termed "regime change&quot without the overt use of U.S. military force. Often, such operations are tasked to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).

1 Prior to Cold War

1.1 Russia

2 During the Cold War

2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Iraq 1960–63
2.9 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–89
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras

3 Since the end of the Cold War

3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Venezuela 2002
3.3 Iraq 2002–03
3.4 Iran 2005–present
3.5 Somalia 2006–07
3.6 Syria 2012–present
link

How many lies does a person have to be told before they start questioning the liars?

How many "regime change" actions need to be performed before an example is set?

It's time to abolish the CIA, and may Truman roll in his grave for creating it in the first place.

[Duckhunter935]

5. "It's amazing how many people are anti discussion on a discussion board"

Its not anti discussion if we do not agree with the OP. Actually that IS discussion.

[another_liberal]

7. Thank you.

I thought these developments were fascinating. I assumed a few others might be interested in them as well.

If a Ukrainian pilot is indeed guilty of this atrocity, who ordered him to do it? I think it is important to find out what really happened.

[Boreal]

25. Well

it was Kolomoisky's right hand man, Svyatoslav Oliynyk, in a conversation with Anatoliy Gritsenko/Hrytsenko who was flipping out about the Youtube (attempting to frame the militia and Russians for downing the plane) being uploaded the day before the shoot down. Of course, it was Kolomoisky who organized the Odessa massacre, even putting a bounty on every leftist killed and Gritsenko, former minister of defense, is all up with NATO and suggested "patriots" would be right to murder Putin. So, that conversation certainly implicates them though others had to be involved. There's a good possibility they thought they had Putin's plane.

[CreekDog]

81. it's not a "development" just because it's reported on rt.com

[newfie11]

9. +INFINITY!!!!!!!!!!!nt

[NuclearDem]

23. Do you just have a Word document somewhere with this stuff ready?

Copypasta madness.

[treestar]

32. The OPs second paragraph is anti-discussion isn't it?

It's amazing to make that demand on a board like DU. There's nothing OP can do to stop people questioning his theory. Yet he at least tries and asks other people not to oppose him in any way.

[Duckhunter935]

37. Yep, but it is OK for them

[Duckhunter935]

6. a "lie detctor test"

administered by Russia, yes, I believe that. Was it recorded? What were the questions? Have any non-Russian experts looked at it?

A polygraph is not accurate.

The R-60 has a very small warhead and is heat seeking. Doubtful it would down MH17. It would have locked on an engine and taken out one of the two engines on the 777. It can still fly and land with one per the design of the aircraft. Not to mention the SU25 with missile could not reach the altitude of MH17. Do not let facts get in the way of the RT spin machine.

[edhopper]

8. An unnamed Ukraining citizen

who happened to not only be close enough to a military air base to see the plane, but also recognize an air to air missile under the wing of a jet in flight.

Then this citizen was able to go to Russia, or have this "Russian Investigative Committee" interview him with a polygraph. And low and behold, who ever was interpreting the polygraph says this unnamed person is telling the truth.

You just can't argue with that.

In other news, an legitimate American news source says Bigfoot was seen eating at Wendy's in Tacoma.

[Takket]

10. "Russia’s Investigative Committee"

I stopped reading right there. I'll believe the guy that Chris Christie hired to clear Chris Christie before I believe "Russia’s Investigative Committee".

[bemildred]

11. 'Ukrainian military worker' claims one of his country's fighter jets shot down MH17 after confusing

---

The pilot, named as Captain Vladislav Voloshin, said 'the plane was in the wrong place at the wrong time' evidently having confused the Boeing for a military target, said the source.

'In the second half of the day, roughly an hour before the Boeing was shot down, three fighters took off,' said the source. 'I don't remember the exact hour. One of the jets was equipped with air-to-air missiles. It was a Sukhoi-25.'

Only one plane returned to this air base, he said, and it was the one that previously had the missiles suspended below.

---

'They are suspended to a fighter jet only on a special order,' he said. 'Most typically, the commanders didn't order this because such missiles can't be carried in the air for no particular reason.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2886263/Ukrainian-military-worker-claims-one-country-s-fighter-jets-shot-MH17-confusing-passenger-plane-Russian-air-force.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

[bemildred]

12. MH17: Russian investigators claim proof from witness that Ukrainian pilot involved in downing of fli

Russian investigators say they have new proof from a witness that a Ukrainian pilot fired a missile on the day of the Malaysia Airlines crash which killed 298 people, including 38 Australians.

The witness, who was not named, worked at an airfield in the Ukrainian city of Dnipropetrovsk where he claimed to have seen a warplane take off on July 17 with air-to-air missiles and return without them.

An Investigative Committee statement said the testimony of the man "is important proof that Ukrainian military was implicated in the crash of the Boeing-777".

The MH17 flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down over territory in eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists, who have been fighting Kiev forces since April.

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/international/2014-12-24/mh17-russian-investigators-claim-proof-from-witness-that-ukrainian-pilot-involved-in-downing-of-flig/1402005

[Boreal]

33. And who is the crime boss of Dnipropetrovsk?

Kolomoisky.

[Historic NY]

56. The "black boxes" would be usefull in determing...

just what systems were still operating after the missle hit. One would expect catastrophic.

[Duckhunter935]

60. They also have the communications

between the plane and the ground, even possible to hear a pilot callout of the missile or explosion just in front of the cockpit. More probably just a quick word or two before the plane was destroyed.

[bemildred]

61. I don't follow the "evidence" much, but it seems to have been very sudden,

based on the tapes IIRC. And from the outside. I expect eventually we will get better evidence to judge by.

Edit: there was no comment from the cockpit.

[bemildred]

13. MH17: Russia reveals 'witness' who blames Ukraine pilot

A "secret witness" told a Russian newspaper this week that an Su-25 fighter pilot had fired his air-to-air missiles at the wrong aircraft.

Ukraine has rejected the claim as fake.

Flight MH17 from Amsterdam was downed over eastern Ukraine on 17 July with the loss of all 298 people on board.

Suspicion immediately focused on a Russian-made Buk missile launcher seen in territory controlled by pro-Russian rebels at the time.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-30597555

[EX500rider]

26. "an Su-25 fighter pilot had fired his air-to-air missiles at the wrong aircraft."

Since the rebels have no aircraft, what would the "right aircraft" possibly have been?

[Duckhunter935]

28. I am sure this goes

back to the shoot down of Putin theory that was floated by RT some time ago.

[bemildred]

35. That was my guess too. And it's hearsay. nt

[SidDithers]

53. And floated by formerly respected journalist Robert Parry, too...

Parry even used RT's graphic.



Sid

[Boreal]

38. Putin's

Which had crossed right through there, within about a 35 minute time frame, I think (would need to look that up). He was returning from western Europe.

[EX500rider]

40. So the Ukrainian's were tying to get nuked is your story?

I think they want the war in the east of their country to get smaller, not bigger.

[Duckhunter935]

42. when you have to grasp at straws ......

[Boreal]

46. Nuked?

Actually it was Julia Tymoshenko who suggested using nukes against east Ukrainians (though she used a racial invective to describe them).

Kiev started the war in Donbass. Their only interest is in securing the grip of the oligarchs. They are not trying to make the war "smaller".

Oh, and speaking of nukes: there is only one country to have ever used them - twice.

[Duckhunter935]

48. actually the armed thugs

that took over several government buildings started it. If the government acted quicker and had not kept trying to not intervene it would have ended sooner. Now that Russia has started to supply troops and heavy arms, the government is powerless.

[Boreal]

63. The Ukrainian military and oligarch batallions

vastly outnumber the resistance, in men and equipment AND they have an air force which they have used against the civilian population of Donbass.

As for taking over local government buildings in their respective towns, yes, they did. THEY COPIED MAIDAN ON THAT. Maidan did it in the process of overthrowing the elected government of Ukraine. Those in Donbass did it to secure their own safety from those responsible for the coup and to stop them setting up their fascist regime in Donbass.

[Duckhunter935]

65. Maidan left and free elections were held after

the previous President left the country in the dark of the night for Russia, by the way packing his loot. The east not so much. How many government buildings did Maidan take over and in how many cities?

And it was funny the government was on the verge of ending the rebellion as they did indeed have superior armed forces in the spring. The rebels were down to getting museum pieces up and running and were surrounded. Then Russia intervened and supplied the rebels with leadership, troops and state of the art military equipment. They were supplied air defense systems and started to down Ukrainian aircraft. They have had a constant set of war games along the border and have lost many soldiers on "vacation" or accidently killed in those exercises.

[Boreal]

78. Maidan were still occupying buildings

and city streets in Kiev as recently as August. They controlled a hotel, convention center and even commandeered a privately owned restaurant. They had to be dragged out and their camps town down in order for the Kiev military parade to be held on independence day.

I have followed this war very closely and while the resistance has always been vastly outnumbered and under supplied, Kiev was never going to stop it. These people's fathers, grandfathers and uncles fought Hitler and are not going to be subjugated by a fascist puppet regime now. Perhaps that's why Tymoshenko said they should be nuked.

So what that they've received assistance through Russian channels? They've not received near enough, imo. Ukrainian fascists have and are receiving aid from the west, including the CIA camped out in Kiev, the California National Guard, mercenaries and anything else the neocons can arrange. I realize you would like see these people crushed but there are other people who wish the opposite so, hopefully, assistance and volunteers keep on coming And, btw, the militia, being much more motivated, as people will be when defending their lives, families and land, have done a brilliant job at capturing Ukrainian military hardware. The civilians have pitched in, too, stealing a UA tank, in Maripupol, and handing it over to militia.

[Duckhunter935]

83. "California National Guard"

that's amazing, get that from RT. So as you say Maidan may have stayed in two buildings and were thrown out. The rebels took over hundreds, looted stores banks, car dealers and any other thing of value. How nice of them. Not to mention firing artillery and Grad systems from residential areas. So you admit Putin has been supplying troops and military hardware to rebels in a neighboring sovereign state. OK.

No, I do not want to see them crushed, I think they should have taken the Presidents offer of laying down arms and a full amnesty. They have now ignored the Ukrainian elections and lost any hope of now being represented. They are breaking the signed cease fire agreement that keeps that area as part of Ukraine, elections in the east under Ukrainian laws. Removing heavy weapons and foreign troops. The rebels did sign that agreement. Ukraine passed the special status law as required. The rebels now are backing off the signed agreement and want more land. They require the power plant in the north, the airport and the port in the south. Ukraine will not agree to that and has cut that area off as the rebels themselves say now they do not want to be part of Ukraine. They are getting what they want and now they are facing their own areas of rebellion as they looted everything, stole the humanitarian aid and left the population to starve.

[Boreal]

89. Yes, the California National Guard

Support to Ukraine’s National Guard is implemented through the California–Ukraine State Partnership Program (SPP). While the SPP mandate is to “promote democracy, free market economies and military reform, in practice the SPP is used to channel support as well as special forces and military advisers to Ukraine’s (neo-Nazi) National Guard battalions in Donbass.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/is-us-nato-preparing-to-wage-war-on-russia/5420177

Of course you won't like the very informative link above but there are many articles about all of the players involved, including the CNG. If you don't want to research it yourself, here's a CA assemblyman praising their relationship with Ukraine:

http://asmdc.org/members/a45/news-room/press-releases/assembly-passes-resolution-honoring-california-ukraine-national-guard-partnership-program


The rest of what you said is hysterical BS. The people of Donbass secured their public buildings, held peaceful referendums and voted overwhelmingly for self rule. Their elected government in Kiev was violently overthrown and they were not consulted, nor did they support what happened, so they went their own way. For that they were are being brutally attacked. Hell I even have video of them being attacked BEFORE they voted, on voting day, where several were murdered as they waited in line for the polls to open. There are videos of tanks sent from Kiev with people in Donbass standing in front of those tanks, screaming, "What the hell are you doing?!" to the UA troops and they are pre-referendum. The assault began as soon as they rejected the western backed coup and puppet regime. They watched what happened in Odessa and that was the final straw.

The militia enjoys tremendous support from the people. Without it there never would have been any successful resistance.

It is not "Putin" backing the resistance, it is factions within Russia. There are also factions within Russia working against the resistance in Ukraine. If Russia "invaded" Ukraine, as the accusations go, it would have been over in a week. The militia would have never been driven from Slavyansk. The residents of Lugansk and Donetsk would not been mercilessly shelled and bombed. Thousands would not have died. In fact, many Donbass citizens were angry or disappointed that Russia didn't formally engage.

The big irony here is that the people of Donbass were and are as anti oligarch and corruption as the most idealistic early Maidan demonstrators. The difference is that the people of Donbass are a hell of lot smarter and saw the manipulation by outside actors. Ukraine still has a government run by corrupt oligarchs. Nothing has changed in that regard.

The cease fire is a farce. Ukraine shelled Donbass as soon as it was signed. However, it has slowed down the killing and that's good. It will bring the Lugansk and Donetsk Republics back to Ukraine, though, nor should it.

[Duckhunter935]

92. Wow

Last edited Thu Dec 25, 2014, 04:13 AM - Edit history (1)

Do not know what to say. So many outright falsehoods and conspiracies in one response. I am glad you are in the very small minority and such a great supporter of Putin and the thugs that kicked there own people from office even in the local areas. Yes, Russia invaded twice. Once to take over Crimea by sending in uniformed troops without insignia along with military equipment. Putin even later admitted it. Not to mention sinking one of Russia's ships to illegally blockade the Ukrainian navy in port so they could storm and seize those ships. By the way breaking international law and the signed Budapest agreement. They then invaded Ukraine to save the rebels when they were getting their collective asses kicked. The so called elections were a farce as no ballot lists were used, no ballot security, ballots printed by the tens of thousands and multiple voting allowed. No international norms followed or international observers allowed. The vote in Crimea did not even have option to stay a part of Ukraine. You keep believing those outlandish conspiracies, i know the truth and what you state is not even close. You sure sound like another poster that was stoned a while back. My town has a partnership with a German town, we must getting ready to support some kind of coup. I hope i am wrong because that would just prove how dishonest you are if it were. Good night and Merry Christmas.

[EX500rider]

50. What do you think the response of the Russians would be to Putin being murdered by..

...the Ukrainian Air Force?

A pat on the back?

They are not trying to make the war "smaller".
Says you, somehow I doubt they want they want to face the entire Russian military in a pissed off mood.

Plus unlikely a single missile would do squat as modern leaders of large countries have missile defenses on their planes, chaff, flares and lasers.

Not mention the the whole "the Ukranian plane couldn't even fly that high" thing, nor is it a air-to-air platform.

[Sancho]

14. Assuming there is enough access to the wreckage, this should be a solvable question...

I know the investigators had issues getting to the plane and inspecting, but it seems that all they need is evidence of what actually impacted the plane for experts to conclude what type of weapon was used.

I haven't heard any such report yet.

[another_liberal]

17. The wreckage is now in the custody of NATO members, such as the Dutch.

That is the same alliance which has publicly declared the Russian Federation its, "New Enemy." Shouldn't the investigation be under the control of a neutral organization, perhaps the United Nations?

There is no point in conducting an investigation which will only be considered biased and otherwise questionable by much of the World.

[FBaggins]

85. You posted that as a joke right?

Re-read that last paragraph...then re-read your OP.

Repeat until you get it.

[arely staircase]

148. +1 nt

[pampango]

16. The rebels shot down several planes before this. AFAIK, the government shot down none.

Largely because there were no planes for government planes to shoot at.

Then a mistake is made and the wrong plane is shot down. Which side is more likely at fault - the one that had used missiles to shot down several planes in the days and weeks before that or the one that had not shot any planes down.

... he personally saw the plane piloted by Voloshin armed with R-60 air-to-air missiles ...

I suspect many countries have fighter planes armed with air-to-air missiles. That is one of the jobs that fighter planes do. The fact that it had such missiles does not prove anything any more than the fact that rebel forces had ground-to-air missiles.

Hypothetically, whose plane would a Ukrainian fighter pilot been thinking he was shooting down. "... the rebel forces had no military aircraft."

The plane entered Ukrainian airspace from Poland. It was not likely to be a hostile aircraft coming from Poland. If he thought he was shooting at a Russian plane that approaching the border with Russia, he must have a death wish since he would have been lucky to make it back to his base if he shot down a Russian plane. There were large scale Russian military maneuvers going on just over the border. It would not have taken long to target him.

Despite all this, if one wants to contend that we can't be absolutely 100% certain beyond even the slightest shadow of a doubt (the same line of reasoning offered by climate change deniers), fine but let's not pretend that the only interest in raising doubts is to keep an open mind and to pursue the truth. We all know that is not the immediate goal of RT or the Russian government.

[another_liberal]

18. The James Gang had never robbed a train . . .

Before they robbed that first train they robbed.

[pampango]

21. But after their first few train robberies they were suspects in later robberies moreso

than guys who had not robbed trains yet. And for good reason.

[Boreal]

57. The militia shot down

lower flying Ukrainian military aircraft coming to kill or supply the killers of the people of Donbass.

Russian military radar showed military aircraft (the militia has no air force) tailing MH17 right up to the shoot down. So did Rostov ATC. All of that data has been made public. The US also had radar, satellite and AWAC data as they were doing military exercises in the Black Sea. They have refused to release that data. Ukraine refuses to release it's military and civilian ATC, as well.

Putin's plane also came from Polish air space that day.

[SidDithers]

19. Spam, spam, spam, spam, spam...

/Python.

Sid

[Scootaloo]

30. Thank god you showed up, Sid. I was so bored of all the intelligent replies!

[SidDithers]

55. You actually think the RT nonsense posted in the OP deserves intelligent replies?...

I think Monty Python is entirely appropriate here.

Sid

[Scootaloo]

58. I think that it garnered plenty of them, and yours was not in their number

You knowthat you don't get prizes based on post counts, right?

[SidDithers]

59. Some DUers have more patience than I do...

I'm done engaging those who think RT is credible. They can wallow in the Putinverse, for all I care.

Sid

[Scootaloo]

62. Do you imagine that another_liberal will stop postingto spare himself your disdain?

'Cause if so, well... High hopes i guess.

[SidDithers]

64. Nope. I doubt there's anything that will stop them from spamming GD...

with fairy tales from rt.com

Am I not allowed to laugh at that which I find hilarious?

Sid

[Scootaloo]

66. Well, it's not spam if it contains content

Even if it's bad content, it's still more than you provided.

Shit, you could have at least linked a video of the skit. We could have a laugh at vikings singing the spam song.

[SidDithers]

68. 106 of his last 112 threads, 6 months worth, have linked to rt.com...

That's spam.

Sid

[FBaggins]

86. It isn't spam

It's clearly propaganda.

The only question is "dupe or willing participant?"

[nilesobek]

90. DU must think its credible.

RT is right here on the website. You are going to have to do better than that. Get RT banned if you have the juice, but stop trashing threads.

[tammywammy]

111. People post crap from Natural News too

That doesn't make it any more credible or less deserving of ridicule. Same with RT.

[nilesobek]

127. If the source is so discounted

then it should be easy for you to explain and get those sources banned, instead of trashing threads.

[tammywammy]

134. That's not how DU works.

The admins don't ban particular sources. RT isn't considered reputable for LBN, but posters are still free to post it in GD. And others are still able to mock it, the same as when people link to Natural News.

[nilesobek]

136. Where else can you get news about Russia?

The American media seems to be in full onslaught propaganda mode and there is RT and Tass, Ivestia and all are considered state run and unreliable. There's no where to go and the activists have been kicked out, they were recording a lot of protests. I wonder if its all smoke and mirrors though when I see how the Russians are working with us at the space station and our astronauts are paying for transport. They don't have to help transport them while absorbing crushing sanctions. We haven't had a reliable rocket in five years.

I've never been to Natural News website so I don't know the context, but thanks for the info. All the different groups must have different rules I suppose. It might help me to read the FAQs.

[EX500rider]

122. Try posting RT on the "Latest Breaking News" page and see how that goes...

[bemildred]

20. Security Service denies that Ukraine warplane may have shot down MH17

Ukraine's Security Service (SBU) on Wednesday denied allegations in Russian media that cited Russian security authorities as saying Malaysian Airlines' MH17 might have been shot down by a Ukrainian warplane and naming the pilot of the plane.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/security-service-denies-that-ukraine-warplane-may-have-shot-down-mh17-376059.html

[NuclearDem]

22. So what?

First of all, the polygraph is an absolute joke. It doesn't "detect lies", it measures stressful reactions, which can be brought on by any number of things, and determines "lie" versus "truth" based on the strength of the reactions to relevant and control questions; if the reaction is stronger in relevant questions, that's indicative of deception, but if the reaction to control questions is stronger, then the subject is telling the truth.

It's completely inaccurate and only has a successful detection rate slightly better than a lucky guess. Anyone with any sort of training can artificially inflate their reactions to the control questions and create a passing scenario.

Second, so what if he did? His account was that an Su-25 pilot appeared shaken after returning to base, that it was the "wrong plane" and "in the wrong place at the wrong time." All that means is the pilot could have been saying he was the intended target for the missile, and is suffering through survivor's guilt for the rebels having brought down the airliner instead.

[Duckhunter935]

31. interesting theory

All that means is the pilot could have been saying he was the intended target for the missile, and is suffering through survivor's guilt for the rebels having brought down the airliner instead.

and more plausible than the OP's theory.

[Scootaloo]

29. As others have said, a polygraph is not an effective "lie detector."

It's a device that measures stress levels. That's all it does.

In this case, they've strapped up a person who believes they overheard someone say something. The polygraph results say that this person has no elevated stress about that statement.

This does not actually translate into their statement being true. If a polygraph is a poor lie detector, it's even worse as a truth-detector.

[nilesobek]

91. A simple trick.

A thumbtack is placed in your shoe. Every time a question is asked, the toe is poked with the thumbtack, enough to draw blood sometimes. The body reacts differently to each control question. It totally messes up the test. They usually label such results as, "inconclusive." Plenty of other ways to beat these tests too. I'm not saying that's what happened, but just pointing out the possible flaws and unreliability of such tests.

[HERVEPA]

34. More Russia Today crap from our premier Russia Today crap poster

I'm Shocked, shocked

[SidDithers]

43. 106 of his last 112 threads...

have linked to rt.com



Sid

[zappaman]

45. That just means like 50 million other Americans, he gets his news from RT!

"RT is watched now by over 50 million US households. It is the ANTI-FOX network.

Which is why I have serious questions about those who are attempting to discredit and still claiming to be 'liberals'."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4363923

[Duckhunter935]

49. watched or available to?

Do you have the ratings? You do know if it is on cable it may not be watched right?

[SidDithers]

52. I think it's up to 100 million by now...nt

Sid

[Duckhunter935]

54. or several hundred billion nt

[HERVEPA]

72. Billions and billions

[Duckhunter935]

75. Awesome nt

[Major Nikon]

114. I think the number is closer to 1 brazilian

[Duckhunter935]

123. Might be low

🎅

[FSogol]

74. LOL, How'd I ever miss that post?

x 100

[Tarheel_Dem]

76. Many moons later, and that claim that is yet to be substantiated.

[Duckhunter935]

77. I have not found how they come up with it

I have searched but must be the wrong places

[Tarheel_Dem]

79. Don't worry about it. You'll never find it. Many have tried, and failed. Someone tried to pass...

off a Wiki entry about RT "availability" as "viewership", got caught, and refused to back down, never providing a single reputable source for that ludicrous claim. As far I can tell, no ratings agencies even bother to track RT viewership if that tells you anything.

[Duckhunter935]

80. Thats what my research shows

Thanks, maybe the person putting this out will cite a source, right?

[zappaman]

82. Don't hold your breath. n/t

[Duckhunter935]

84. I know nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

119. "Thanks, maybe the person putting this out will cite a source, right?"

Hope springs eternal.

[reorg]

95. BBC World Service fears losing information war as Russia Today ramps up pressure

BBC World Service fears losing information war as Russia Today ramps up pressure
Former director calls for more cash to fight propaganda saying BBC is being outgunned by Kremlin-backed news channel

... International alarm over the rise of Kremlin-funded news, led by 24-hour news channel Russia Today, has intensified

... As the World Service has pared back, Russia Today has expanded spectacularly. The network, which broadcasts a pro-Kremlin interpretation of world events in English, Spanish, Arabic and Russian, launched a UK-focused channel based in Millbank, central London, recently and plans to launch German and French channels next year.

... The channel boasts of a worldwide reach of 700 million

... "We are being outgunned massively by the Russians and Chinese and that’s something I’ve raised with the BBC. It is frightening the extent to which we are losing the information war."

... Russia Today’s expansion is part of a big investment in soft power. A lot of the eastern states have made bit investments in international broadcasting and that’s their attempt to influence western audiences in the same way the BBC have in the past tried to do that ...

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/dec/21/bbc-world-service-information-war-russia-today


So, the BBC needs to spend even more tax money because ... nobody watches RT?

But the BBC World Sercive (that's just the radio programs alone) already receives way more money (directly from the British Foreign Office): £245 million - than the entire RT operation (including cable tv, social media, web) wordwide next year: £183 million.

In addition, BBC News, which includes the domestic operation but also feeds the international tv channels on cable as well as the web (and negligable social media presence) has a state-financed budget of £350 million. Way to go, Brits, Russia is coming!

http://rt.com/op-edge/216903-rt-guardian-outspending-bbc/



It's official: RT is most watched news network on YouTube with over 2bn views

The BBC World Service, a leading international radio and internet broadcaster providing programmes and content in English and 27 other languages, has a budget of £245 million ($382 million) that is funded from UK TV license fees. RT, with its 24-hour TV and internet coverage in English, Spanish, Arabic and Russian, plus French and German services ready to be rolled out in 2015, will reportedly have a combined budget of 15.38 billion rubles ($271 million as at December 22, 2014) for 2015.

http://rt.com/uk/216559-bbc-rt-budget-horrocks/

RT EXPANDS REACH TO 700 MILLION VIEWERS WORLDWIDE
10.09.2014 14:23
MOSCOW, SEPTEMBER 10, 2014 – RT, the Moscow-based multilingual television news network, is now available around the clock to 700 million viewers in more than 100 countries around the globe.

RT family includes the flagship English-language news channel, which just received its third International Emmy nomination, as well as RT Arabic, RT Spanish and RT America news channels, and documentary channel RTDoc in English and Russian.

The network has added more than 40 million viewers to its potential audience in the first half of 2014. Major expansion of RT Spanish in Latin America contributed significantly to this growth.

In Latin America, RT Spanish is now offered by more than 500 cable operators. Presence in the cable grids of Peru, Colombia, Venezuela and Mexico was especially increased. In March of 2014 RT Spanish was named the Best Television Channel, Informational Resource and Multimedia Platform by the Mexican Press Club, in what is one of the most prestigious journalism awards in Latin America. RT soon will join Argentina’s national TV grid, thanks to the broadcasting deal that was signed at the end of recent Russian-Argentine talks.

http://rt.com/about-us/press-releases/rt-millions-viewers-worldwide/

[Duckhunter935]

98. Lots of RT propaganda

simple question and not answered

What are the ratings in the USA of RT?

A number has been put out now source it.

According to the Broadcasters' Audience Research Board between approximately 2.5 million Britons watched RT during the third quarter of 2012, making it the third most-watched rolling news channel in Britain, behind BBC News and Sky News (not including Sky Sports News).[95][115][116] However RT was soon overtaken by Al Jazeera English,[117] and viewing figures had dropped to about 2.1 million by the end of 2013.[118] For comparison it has marginally fewer viewers than S4C, the state-funded Welsh language broadcaster,[107] or minor channels such as Zing, Viva and Rishtey.[119]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

Britain, not the US and not from RT that has a stake in inflating it's numbers.

[reorg]

99. If RT is really so marginal and unimportant

and the BBC spends about double the amount for its international programs (reaching less than half of RT's potential viewers), what's the worry, why the run for more money, why the permanent hate messages and vapid dismissals here?

Didn't you get the point of the article I cited? The BBC is very, very afraid. They need more money, immediately, to be able to compete.

Likewise RFE and VOA, BTW. Congress has just passed a resolution and the President has signed it, authorizing more funds for state-financed American propaganda abroad:

"The bill also authorizes (...) additional funds (...) for U.S. international broadcasting, ... "
http://www.rferl.org/content/obama-russia-ukraine-aid-bill-sanctions/26751408.html

because

"Whereas the Russian Federation has expanded the presence of its state-sponsored media in national languages across central and western Europe with the intent of using news and information to distort public opinion and obscure Russian political and economic influence in Europe;

Whereas expanded efforts by United States international broadcasting across all media in the Russian and Ukrainian languages are needed to counter Russian propaganda and to provide the people of Ukraine and the surrounding regions with access to credible and balanced information; ..."

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres758/text

(in addition to previously authorized funds in the target region
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_International_Programming_to_Ukraine_and_Neighboring_Regions

[Duckhunter935]

100. so once again you fail to answer one simple question

Just admit the number stated is bullshit that someone made it up.

I do not think BBC is scared. Yes we all agree that Putin is spending a lot of money on his propaganda. Some of it is just plain funny it gets so stupid.

[reorg]

104. which number?

[Duckhunter935]

105. 50 Million

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6001012

That was the number stated that watched RT in the US. I asked for source. I think it is available but watched is probably much lower. That is up this sub thread and nobody seems to want to answer that simple question. Just wants to divert with more RT propaganda.

[reorg]

110. no

In the United States, about 85 million people in key urban areas can watch RT in English and Spanish via cable or satellite, including Comcast, Dish Network and Time Warner Cable. Key spots include New York City, Washington, DC, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego and Philadelphia metropolitan areas. In 2014 RT’s weekly audience in seven of the largest US cities has doubled, according to a Nielsen survey. Residents of Washington, D.C., New York and other American cities prefer RT to other international TV channels, such as Euronews, Deutsche Welle and France 24. Nielsen conducted its study on the international TV channels’ audience in seven major US urban areas: Washington, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia and San Diego. According to the study, almost 3 million people in these cities tune in to RT every week.

http://rt.com/about-us/distribution/

Sabrina was probably referring to RT's reach at the time. The context of her message is quite interesting, BTW. The thread was about the Neonazis who would soon play a decisive and bloody role in Kiev. The first response? A vapid dismissal trying to disrupt a discussion about:

The West has been turning a blind eye to all these neo-Nazis operating in Kiev, just like they were saying that there were no jihadists among Syrian opposition, Dmitry Babich, political analyst at the Voice of Russia, told RT.

The Ukrainian protesters clashed with police in Kiev after nearly 10,000 people took part in an anti-government demonstration at Maidan, or Independence Square, on January 18-19. What started as a peaceful demonstration turned into violent clashes with the police later Sunday. The most aggressive group of protesters, known as nationalists from Oleg Tyahnybok’s party, started throwing stones, debris and Molotov cocktails directly at the police, and using bats to beat the policemen.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4362938

[Duckhunter935]

112. So even you agree

The number is a lie and 3 million per WEEK is not even close to 50 million she claimed watched RT. I did not bring this up, the other poster put out factually incorrect information and to end it quickly could just admit that fact.

[reorg]

116. not I, RT agrees with you

and you with RT, it would appear. Something must have gone awfully wrong, I suppose, don't let it happen!

Quick, just say: "I read it on RT, so it must be true - ROFL, LOL, PIMP - look how funny I am today!1!!"

[Duckhunter935]

120. You are

Merry Christmas or happy holidays to you🎅

[jberryhill]

101. "why the permanent hate messages and vapid dismissals here"

One might as well ask why the constant parroting of whatever they are on about.

They used to be the premier source of "Obama birther" bullshit too.

The Westboro Baptist Church is an insignificant group of around a dozen people, but they also get regular attention on DU because they are good at generating negative attention.

[reorg]

108. if there were only a dozen gay-bashers in the US

the Westboro Baptist Church would get very little attention.

What we have here is that a small and insignificant group is allowed to obsessively repeat the same, rather meaningless attacks, often literally without any intelligible content, because a larger group, if not the majority - while not necessarily in agreement with the method - like the general direction this takes.

[Duckhunter935]

113. You mean facts, right?

I know those are terrible if they are not on your side. You and about 5 others that only push RT and Putin's lines if the day are the minority. Look at this thread.

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. +1,000,0000,0000

[LincolnsLeftHand]

36. So, despite the overwhelming evidence that Russian-backed rebels

Using Russian-provided weapons were responsible for this atrocity and that the plane was destroyed by a surface to air missile, you want us to believe that the Ukraine air force was responsible? And Russia has empowered an investigative committee to determine if Russia was responsible? That sounds like a neutral body. Why is this dross taken with any seriousness?

[Boreal]

67. The evidence

is the radar data showing military aircraft tailing MH17 until it was shot down. There's also the shot up cockpit. Hi res photos are online.

[NuclearDem]

69. And it's been addressed over and over again how it's impossible

for an Su-25 to have shot down the airliner, and even if it could have, how the damage indicates a surface-to-air missile and not an aircraft in guns range.

[Duckhunter935]

71. what was the altitude of both planes

Do you know?

[EX500rider]

39. Here's the planes flight path:

What are the chances the Ukrainian Air Force would think a plane on this flight path was part of the non-existent rebel air force?

[Duckhunter935]

44. They took the long way nt

[zappaman]

41. Kick for Putin!

He needs all the help he can get apparently to spread his bullshit!

[rjsquirrel]

47. Pravda, comrade

Thanks for telling us how we are allowed to comment, mighty democratic of you.

Polygraph results are not admissible as court evidence and this is the thinnest of straws on which to hang your pro-Putin conspiracy theories.

Donetsk rebels shot down that plane and committed all those murders.

The question is who benefits from arguing otherwise with petty evidence?

And that is why I say "dosvidanya, tovarish." How much does Putin pay his propagandists these days?

[Iggo]

51. Lol...polygraph test.

[chrisa]

73. "Russian Investigative Committee" Meh...

For what it's worth, I wouldn't believe a "US Investigative Committee" either, but a Russian one is even less trustworthy.

[NewDeal_Dem]

94. Investigative Committee of Russia...

The Investigative Committee of Russian Federation (Russian: Следственный комитет Российской Федерации is the main federal investigating authority in Russia, formed in place of the Investigative Committee of Prosecutor General of Russia. it began to operate on January 15, 2011. The Committee is subordinate to the President of Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_Committee_of_Russia

[Duckhunter935]

102. so the committee

works directly for Putin, interesting.

[NuclearDem]

103. Seems legit.

[NewDeal_Dem]

124. "subordinate to the president" doesnt mean precisely the same thing as "works directly for

the president".

it could mean that in practice, but doesn't necessarily.

[Duckhunter935]

125. In this case

I think I would be correct, Putin is more of a dictator than a conventional President. He has stacked every position with his yes men.

[NewDeal_Dem]

126. Because you have inside knowledge of the matter no doubt.

[Duckhunter935]

131. no

just any persons in opposition to Putin end up in jail.

[brooklynite]

87. Let's stipulate that you don't trust US media....

isn't it interesting that ONLY RT manages to "break" these stories?

[randome]

117. Screw that! Next thing you know, you'll be telling us to disregard the National Enquirer!

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[brooklynite]

118. I have a firm policy: if the National Enquirer AND The Star run the same headline, then it's true...

[sendero]

88. I don't know any more about this than ..

.... the next guy, I've read the various reports, assertions and stipulations. So my belief is we will probably never know with certainty what actually happened.

That said, the FACT that the Dutch investigators (why them pray tell?) have refused to release key information that they actually DO have speaks volumes to me. Oh, and I'm given to understand that someone has the black box (Ukraine govt?) and that is not released either.

And basically, not to put too fine a point on it, if it were negative to Russia it would have been released IMHO. When people endeavor to keep information hidden, it is not to help their enemies.

[Duckhunter935]

93. Ukraine does not have the recorders

I am sure when the report is final everything will be released. That is part of all international agreemennts and obligations of the signatories that include the Netherlands. These reports usually take at least a year and they have now just removed the aircraft wreckage that has not been secured and probably tampered with making it harder to get true facts.

[sendero]

96. We shall.....

... see.

Certainly, I can think of NO VALID REASON for the data recorder info to be withheld, surely you are not asserting that nobody has them?

[Duckhunter935]

97. of course not and the data will come out

Last edited Thu Dec 25, 2014, 10:46 AM - Edit history (1)

Razak said they “will be held securely in Malaysian custody while the international investigation team is being formalized. At that time, we will pass the black boxes to the international investigation team for further analysis.”

Where did you come up with I thought nobody had them?

[backscatter712]

109. I read it on RT, so it must be true!

[reorg]

115. As it happens, it is.

Let's see to what other RT news of today your pathetic little snark applies.

'Children are victims of violence, trade and trafficking,' Pope says in Xmas message
Israeli serviceman shoots 5yo Palestinian in the face
ISIS 'launches new chlorine gas attack' in Iraq's Anbar - report
UK police misuse pre-charge bail to ban activists from protesting - report
'Offended' Israel not to support publicly the US-Cuba breakthrough - report
Iran stages massive military display to 'send message of peace' to neighbors
'Dead Michael Brown' song at former cop's party sparks LAPD investigation
British police prepare for Christmas 'lone wolf' terror attacks
Anti-driving-ban activists in Saudi Arabia to face 'terrorism' tribunal
Turkish teenager arrested 'for insulting Erdogan' - media
Gunfire reported at St. Louis protest in wake of Berkeley police shooting
'Enhanced interrogation' program was flawed, US Senate & CIA agree
'Serious institutional homophobia' in Church of England, says Bishop
15 Calais migrants killed trying to enter UK

Surely, you're unable to stop rolling on the floor now and forever.

[Duckhunter935]

121. Some indeed are true

Others that mostly are cited here are either false, horribly distorted, out of context, only the pro-Putin Russian side quoted.

[another_liberal]

128. "I'm gonna hate me some Russians . . ."

"I'm gonna hate me some Russians all day long!"

(sigh)

[Duckhunter935]

130. and you are wrong

I have no problems with the Russian people. I was glad when the wall came down and Russia became more free and the people were allowed to travel and experience a better life. The Russians I have met are warm and caring people. I am totally against the present leadership that invades other sovereign nations with its military and supplies uprisings in other countries with food, weapons and soldiers while at the same time brutally crushing any dissent in Russia. I am also against the Russian stance on LGBT, I hope you do also. Does that mean you hate some Russians all day long?

So where did you pull that quote? It is from nothing I have ever posted and I would like you to acknowledge that fact so others are aware of that fact.

Just because I do not agree with Russian aggression does not mean I hate me some Russians (maybe Putin only). Get real

[another_liberal]

140. It's a close paraphrase of some dialog in the movie . . .

American History X.

Look for the scene where the protagonist is working in the prison laundry with a black fellow prisoner.

[SidDithers]

137. Dude, you should just change your avatar...

here, I made one for you:



Sid

[Duckhunter935]

138. Love it

fits perfectly

[another_liberal]

139. Don't get me started on what you need to change . . .

Better you just mind your own business, and we'll call it even.

[SidDithers]

142. Take your best shot, comrade...nt

Sid

[Calista241]

129. So we're supposed to forget all the recorded radio traffic between the Russian army and rebels?

[Duckhunter935]

132. NATO made it up

it was sent in with another batch of magic cookies

[Calista241]

135. oh. well that makes sense. damn magic cookies.

[Orsino]

133. The polygraph is a placebo, with no other science behind it.

The results of any test are whatever the operator says they are, barring some sort of confession.

"Passing a lie-detector test" is a meaningless phrase.

[another_liberal]

141. The Polygraph, while not admissible as trial evidence, is widely used by investigators . . .

I had to take one myself in regard to an abuse complaint I filed a few years ago.

[Orsino]

143. There's a widespread belief in its efficacy...

...but it's really only a tool for intimidation. The results it yields are almost entirely subjective.

[another_liberal]

144. You're an expert on the efficacy of the Polygraph and other "Stress testing?"

Right?

[Duckhunter935]

147. I see you are

[Orsino]

150. There's no such thing as expertise on something that doesn't exist.

The polygraph can be used to frighten people into confession, and its operators depend on its legend--but there's no science backing the device as any sort of lie detector.

[NuclearDem]

149. Yeah, and Aldrich Ames beat it. Twice.

The polygraph is a joke. When the person being tested hasn't been trained in countermeasures, the accuracy is slightly above chance, but otherwise, it's completely useless.

[malaise]

145. Rational people know what we were told made no sense

All the West has to do is show their satellite data ---but no.

[another_liberal]

146. Right . . .

If they can't clean up their tracks somehow, they just say the evidence has to kept secret because of its importance to "National Security" or our "National Interests."

[riqster]

151. Polygraphs are not accurate.

[catbyte]

152. Perhaps I haven't paid close enough attention, but why is a SAM strike so much more plausible

than an air-to-air strike?

[NuclearDem]

153. Three reasons:

1) The aircraft the pro-Russian side claims shot down MH-17 was a ground attack fighter not designed to climb to MH-17's altitude.

2) The damage to the aircraft's nose is consistent with the type of fragmentation burst proximity fuze warhead used by old Soviet missile systems.

3) The untrained rebels probably locked into MH-17 by mistake; they were most likely targeting the Ukrainian Su-25 sent to attack them.

[catbyte]

154. Thank you!

That makes sense.