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Sat Dec 27, 2014, 10:42 PM

 

Now will people believe me when I say we live in a de facto police state?

The CIA and the NYPD have declared themselves above the law and answerable to NO ONE.

The CIA broke into the senate intelligence committee's computers to spy on them and disrupted their investigation. No one was punished.

The NYPD is openly calling for the removal of the legally elected mayor.

Need I mention the refusal to prosecute war criminals?

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Reply Now will people believe me when I say we live in a de facto police state? (Original post)
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 OP
Kalidurga Dec 2014 #1
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #2
Kalidurga Dec 2014 #38
Snarkoleptic Dec 2014 #56
Kalidurga Dec 2014 #67
reddread Dec 2014 #80
hifiguy Dec 2014 #175
Enthusiast Dec 2014 #66
wildbilln864 Dec 2014 #143
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #174
treestar Dec 2014 #3
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #6
brooklynite Dec 2014 #14
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #31
brooklynite Dec 2014 #34
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #44
brooklynite Dec 2014 #52
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #64
onenote Dec 2014 #111
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #164
onenote Dec 2014 #169
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #173
onenote Dec 2014 #179
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #177
onenote Dec 2014 #178
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #220
onenote Dec 2014 #222
carla Dec 2014 #134
brooklynite Dec 2014 #138
wildbilln864 Dec 2014 #145
brooklynite Dec 2014 #149
JonLP24 Dec 2014 #156
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #157
brooklynite Dec 2014 #166
treestar Dec 2014 #236
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #238
COLGATE4 Dec 2014 #181
treestar Dec 2014 #96
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #124
treestar Dec 2014 #130
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #155
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #63
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #87
hfojvt Dec 2014 #103
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #104
hfojvt Dec 2014 #109
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #120
hack89 Dec 2014 #191
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #223
hack89 Dec 2014 #225
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #227
hack89 Dec 2014 #229
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #230
hack89 Dec 2014 #232
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #233
hack89 Dec 2014 #234
ncjustice80 Dec 2014 #235
hack89 Dec 2014 #237
ncjustice80 Jan 2015 #240
hack89 Jan 2015 #241
ncjustice80 Jan 2015 #242
hack89 Jan 2015 #243
ncjustice80 Jan 2015 #244
hack89 Jan 2015 #245
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hack89 Dec 2014 #137
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hack89 Dec 2014 #226
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treestar Dec 2014 #95
sheshe2 Dec 2014 #161
melman Dec 2014 #20
treestar Dec 2014 #94
99th_Monkey Dec 2014 #10
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #28
Rex Dec 2014 #37
BeanMusical Dec 2014 #57
BrotherIvan Dec 2014 #74
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wildbilln864 Dec 2014 #146
LineLineLineReply +
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hifiguy Dec 2014 #176
NewDeal_Dem Dec 2014 #16
uhnope Dec 2014 #50
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #158
uhnope Dec 2014 #162
zeemike Dec 2014 #54
treestar Dec 2014 #100
zeemike Dec 2014 #105
treestar Dec 2014 #110
COLGATE4 Dec 2014 #184
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treestar Dec 2014 #211
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uhnope Dec 2014 #202
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treestar Dec 2014 #216
zeemike Dec 2014 #219
reACTIONary Dec 2014 #133
1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #135
wildbilln864 Dec 2014 #144
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hack89 Dec 2014 #5
rhett o rick Dec 2014 #7
hack89 Dec 2014 #9
rhett o rick Dec 2014 #11
hack89 Dec 2014 #15
rhett o rick Dec 2014 #58
Enthusiast Dec 2014 #69
hack89 Dec 2014 #77
reddread Dec 2014 #82
hack89 Dec 2014 #86
reddread Dec 2014 #88
hack89 Dec 2014 #89
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #159
hack89 Dec 2014 #168
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #195
hack89 Dec 2014 #196
hfojvt Dec 2014 #107
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #160
treestar Dec 2014 #165
99th_Monkey Dec 2014 #12
hack89 Dec 2014 #21
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #71
hack89 Dec 2014 #79
Enthusiast Dec 2014 #73
hack89 Dec 2014 #78
99th_Monkey Dec 2014 #75
MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #19
hack89 Dec 2014 #25
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #8
hack89 Dec 2014 #13
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #22
hack89 Dec 2014 #26
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #32
Enthusiast Dec 2014 #70
hack89 Dec 2014 #108
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #122
hack89 Dec 2014 #123
onecaliberal Dec 2014 #45
WillyT Dec 2014 #18
hack89 Dec 2014 #23
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hack89 Dec 2014 #81
Enthusiast Dec 2014 #72
hack89 Dec 2014 #83
MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #41
cprise Dec 2014 #142
WillyT Dec 2014 #154
billhicks76 Dec 2014 #68
X_Digger Dec 2014 #17
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #24
randys1 Dec 2014 #30
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randys1 Dec 2014 #36
Rex Dec 2014 #42
MrMickeysMom Dec 2014 #27
Ramses Dec 2014 #33
randys1 Dec 2014 #39
Ramses Dec 2014 #53
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #40
Ramses Dec 2014 #47
laundry_queen Dec 2014 #114
dixiegrrrrl Dec 2014 #90
MrScorpio Dec 2014 #43
ctsnowman Dec 2014 #46
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Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #51
Spitfire of ATJ Dec 2014 #55
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marym625 Dec 2014 #62
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KG Dec 2014 #91
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randome Dec 2014 #93
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reACTIONary Dec 2014 #132
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WillyT Dec 2014 #139
cprise Dec 2014 #140
onenote Dec 2014 #163
wildbilln864 Dec 2014 #141
workinclasszero Dec 2014 #148
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #152
nichomachus Dec 2014 #150
Jackpine Radical Dec 2014 #151
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Jackpine Radical Dec 2014 #206
Feral Child Dec 2014 #167
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Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #199
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Nevernose Dec 2014 #198
True Blue Door Dec 2014 #200
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treestar Dec 2014 #213
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treestar Dec 2014 #217
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #218
Zorra Dec 2014 #221
hack89 Dec 2014 #231
Kelvin Mace Dec 2014 #239
rjsquirrel Jan 2015 #251

Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 10:43 PM

1. I would have believed you in the early 1980s

it's gotten worse since then.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #1)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 10:46 PM

2. To me the the inarguable point

 

Was the passage of the Patriot Act.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #2)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:37 PM

38. I think it started with the DEA.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #38)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:29 AM

56. Frank Zappa said "We are heading toward a fascist theocracy"

"The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way, and you will see a brick wall at the back of the theater."
- Frank Zappa


Here's the coup de grâce...
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
A new study from Princeton spells bad news for American democracy—namely, that it no longer exists.


"Ordinary citizens," they write, "might often be observed to 'win' (that is, to get their preferred policy outcomes) even if they had no independent effect whatsoever on policy making, if elites (with whom they often agree) actually prevail."

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Response to Snarkoleptic (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:39 AM

67. Frank Zappa was a most profound philosopher nt.

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Response to Snarkoleptic (Reply #56)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:58 AM

80. they set fire to the drapes in dec 2000

 

and left us locked in the building.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #38)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:05 PM

175. And COINTELPRO.

 

But yes, Zappa was well ahead of his time in predicting EXACTLY what has in fact happened.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #2)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:37 AM

66. That's why they allowed 911.

Reichstag Fire.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #66)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:36 PM

143. precisely! thought it required more than mere "allowance" to get what they wanted. n/t

 

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #66)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:01 PM

174. Agreed

 

There were conspirators. Only naive fools dismiss it. The Coincidence Theory crowd.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 10:51 PM

3. That's not a police state

A police state is where one ruler has all the power and the police are his goons to carry out enforcement of his desires without regard to any law - only the ruler's desires. Courts that exist are for show.

The NYPD is subject to the law. They didn't indict that one guy and should have, but there was a consideration of indicting him and in some cases, the officer will get indicted. There should also be a civil case and the burden of proof will be different, and Eric's survivors can recover damages. In a police state you don't get to sue the police. Or even have a grand jury meet to consider indicting them. They kill or put you in the gulag and that's it.

The NYPD can't call for removal of the mayor, only individuals can do that. They can call for it all they want due to the First Amendment. They won't succeed. Whatever processes allow for removal of a NYC mayor will not apply.

It's up to the prosecutor in each jurisdiction to decide whether to bring a case. They may not agree with you that the cases are slam dunk cases. It's usually a lot harder than it looks.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:02 PM

6. Members of the NYPD

 

are openly calling for the removal of the democratically elected mayor and they will suffer ZERO consequences. The CIA and the senior members of the previous administration tortured people and have admitted to, in fact bragged about it, and are not being punished in any way. Meanwhile, they can kill us without sanction.

There is no longer any meaningful oversight of government.

Yeah, there is the appearance of complying with the law, but it is a complete sham process.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:13 PM

14. Why should they suffer any consequences for exercising their first amendment rights?

Whatever you think of them, they have the right as individuals to speak out, and what they say as individuals has no endorsement by the Department.

nb - as someone who's actually LIVED in a Police State, I really find it bothersome when people who HAVEN'T lived in one throw the phrase around flippantly.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:31 PM

31. As someone who mother was killed by a police detective

 

driving drunk and who watched the policeman walk away unpunished despite a mountain of evidence, I don't use the the goddamed term "flippantly". I have had repeated experience with police misconduct and have never seen ANY of it punsihed.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #31)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:34 PM

34. I'm sorry for your loss, but that's not the definition of a Police State

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:43 PM

44. No, my objection was your accusation that I used the phrase

 

"flippantly".

I use it with deadly seriousness and disagree strongly that my definition is inapplicable. A state with a secret police and an ordinary police that answer to nobody one and break the law with impunity is a police state.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #44)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:08 AM

52. no, it is not...

It is a problem that must be addressed, but it is not what is defined as a Police State. The very notion that you're here criticizing the police is reflective of that point.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #52)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:34 AM

64. Give It Up

 

It's semantics. We live in a police state. It's not our fault you don't notice it.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #64)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:39 PM

111. No. Its your problem that you don't know the difference between a real Police State

and what we have here. In a real police state, you wouldn't be posting here.

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Response to onenote (Reply #111)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:15 AM

164. So Closeminded

 

Justifying 80-90% control because it's not 100% control. Hang your head and slither away.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #164)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:27 PM

169. Believe me, if you had ever lived in a real police state, you would know that

we're not 80 or 90 percent of a police state.

The sad thing is that you don't even get that by claiming what is happening here, as bad as it is, equates us to a police state, minimizes the horrors of a real police state. Just like people who try to equate a very bad thing (such as the treatment of many workers in this country) to slavery minimize the horror that is slavery, or people who equate a very bad thing (such as the treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis) to the Holocaust minimize the horror that was the Holocaust.

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Response to onenote (Reply #169)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:00 PM

173. You're Experiences Are Obviously Limited

 

And invoke the Holocaust, Slavery or Apartheid is ridiculous. We are a lot like Central American or Communist police states from the 70s. Your point seems to be that because it doesn't happen to you that it doesn't exist.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #173)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 05:36 PM

179. If that's what you think my point was, there's no point in continuing the discussion

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Response to onenote (Reply #169)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:21 PM

177. Ridiculous

 

Prisons. Ever heard of them ? We have twice many people in prison per capita than Apartheid South Africa or anywhere else in the world.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #177)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 05:35 PM

178. So you're saying life for an black South African during Apartheid was better than life

for African Americans in the US of 2014. Or at least can be equated to life for African Americans in the US in 2014.

Talk about ridiculous.

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Response to onenote (Reply #178)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 11:58 PM

220. Make What You Want Of It

 

I'm saying facts are facts concerning the amount of people in prison. And how ridiculous it is of you to excuse the FACT that we still live in a police state regardless if we are clones of past repressive regimes. We have two Americas here and you live in only one of them I bet.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #220)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:07 AM

222. When were there not at least two Americas?

If we've become something we weren't, when weren't we that?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:10 PM

134. Excuse me,

but the definition is a fluid thing. It walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck...draw your own conclusions, but don't deny the obvious.
America became a police state on 9/11. Deny it as much as you like, that hardly makes it less true.

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Response to carla (Reply #134)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:31 PM

138. Define it how you will.

...but if you want to have a conversation, it will help if your definition of words is the same as everyone else's. as I said before, I've LIVED in a Police State: Government Censorship of the media, checkpoints on the roads, travel restrictions, arbitrary jailing without trial, and especially, no protests or criticism allowed. The very fact that you're here complaining without repercussions is the antithesis of a Police State.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #34)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:42 PM

145. you mean it's ...

 

not "your" definition of a police state. right.

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Response to wildbilln864 (Reply #145)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:04 PM

149. Dictionary.com...

"a nation in which the police, especially a secret police, summarily suppresses any social, economic, or political act that conflicts with governmental policy."

Pretty close to what I experiences in the Philippines. Not at all what I experience in New York City.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #149)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:59 PM

156. I didn't know that about the Phillipines

I had a friend in the military who used his R&R leave to visit the Phillipines based on the idea he'll see Philadelphia again while deployment leaves authorized travel most anywhere. The only things I remember he mentioned was McDonald's served rice instead of french fries and charge per toilet paper. Don't know if it is true, met his future wife there though have no idea if they're still together after all these years.

Bush Administration Backs Police
State Measures in the Philippines
http://www.larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2001/eirv28n20-20010525/eirv28n20-20010525_060-bush_administration_backs_police.pdf

Descriptions you used earlier almost describe America to a T outside its borders. I've driven through American run checkpoints in Iraq. COINTELPRO fits that definition though you could say stuff like that doesn't happen anymore. There is a lot we found out we weren't supposed to know implying there is so much more we don't know & they aren't going to tell us.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #149)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:12 PM

157. Certainly the experience of quite

 

a few Occupy protesters across the country in 2011.

Also, if the police have executed you for simply standing in a stairwell and walked. kind of hard to see the difference.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #157)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 07:36 AM

166. How many Occupy protester were there in total?

And how many got arrested?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #157)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:38 AM

236. In a police state, there would be no press coverage of the shooting

Which is not an execution. No chance to get the police indicted. No civil suits against the police.

The police here cannot just randomly shoot anyone. When they do, it is not because the person is doing anything political. At least the cop claims he or she was in danger of their life. You can disagree with that, but the shootings are never because higher ups of the cop said kill that person for political dissent.

Whereas under Stalin, that could happen and no one dared say anything about it.

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Response to treestar (Reply #236)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 06:48 PM

238. I am sure that the fact that the level

 

of official corruption, abuse, and outright murder doesn't meet your definition of a police state will greatly comfort the victims of your non-existent police state.

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Response to wildbilln864 (Reply #145)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 06:19 PM

181. No - (s)he means it's

not anyone's definition of a police state. If you haven't ever lived in or been in a real police state, you're just throwing words around.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:10 PM

96. Then you are not objective

at all, and that story, if true, does not make this a police state.

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Response to treestar (Reply #96)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:17 PM

124. So, no one who is a victim can be objective?

 

Seriously? If you have experience proving your point, your point in automatically invalid.

And I love the "if true" dig.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #124)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 06:06 PM

130. No, they are not

That's why we don't allow vigilantism. Which is why we have LEO and courts. Of course the victim in a crime is not able to be objective.

The person the victim thinks is guilty may not be guilty, for example.

If a black person rob someone in my family, I am justified in believing all black people are bad?

A doctor committed malpractice on a relative (or at least, I think so, but I'm not objective and a jury might decide he did not). So now I get to claim all doctors are incompetent and only want to make money and don't care about the patient? And because one close to me was a victim of doctor negligence I get to go around smearing all the rest of that profession and everyone is supposed to agree with me?

It's appalling how some people don't believe bigotry is wrong after all. It's only they have ideas about who they can be bigoted again. It's OK for you to treat cops with some broad brush but if anyone dared lump you in with some category you belong to, you'd be screaming.

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Response to treestar (Reply #130)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:56 PM

155. Now you are equating being a victim with being a bigot

 

Thanks, I really appreciate that.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:33 AM

63. Ordinary People Are Fired By Racists

 

For their views on Michael Browns murder. Kids are uninvited to sports tournaments because they are Black and may wear I Can't Breathe tshirts. You don't sound like a fool so stop lying here on DU...cops do not have a right to express their views at work or on the job just like average Americans don't. People get fired everyday for speaking out about their views on the job.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #63)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:11 AM

87. The military dont get fo disparage the commander in chief, on or off duty.

Why should cops get to disparage the mayor? Every back turner should be fired.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #87)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:40 PM

103. sounds like you WANT a police state

where everybody must bow and scrape to the dear leader, and none dare criticize him.

Or is it just that SOME people should not have rights?

That still sounds like MORE of a police state rather than less.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #103)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:51 PM

104. Cops arent everyone, theyre basically a civilian military.

They want all their fancy guns and toys? Theybcan face the same restrictions as the military as well!

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #104)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:24 PM

109. but they ARE part of society

and you still would be in favor of restricting their first amendment rights.

So now you WANT them to be "basically a civilian military"?

Like I said, you are favoring making America MORE of a police state, even while you claim it IS a police state because it is not as much of a police state that you want it to be.

I'm starting to get dizzy here

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #109)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 03:41 PM

120. Your logic is fail. Requiring cops to show respect to the people tjat employ them is far from asking

For a police state. Its the opposite. You seem to feel they should just be able to do whatever they want, and I stand firmly opposed to the injustice and disrespect for the comunities they allegedy serve!

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #120)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:57 AM

191. Does the same apply to all government employees? Teachers for example?

Last edited Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:02 AM - Edit history (2)

I have seen many teacher strikes and demonstrations - why should they be allowed to be so disrespectful to those that employ them?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #191)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:01 AM

223. Because theyre not a paramilitary force famed for human rights abuses.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #223)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:04 AM

225. Words with no legal meaning

They are in fact civilian government employees with collectively bargained rights. You need to put aside the emotions and look at the law.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #225)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:06 AM

227. The military doesnt get it. Why should cops?

Not every govt employee deserves collective bargaining. Cops are proxies for the bourgeois 1%, NOT members of the working class.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #227)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:11 AM

229. Because the military are a unique class of people in the eyes of the law

Where their commanders routinely send them to certain death and where the ability to enforce absolute obedience to orders is paramount. Do you really want a police force that has to blindly obey the orders of the 1%. You are sending a mixed message here.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #229)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:12 AM

230. Im not. They already do!

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #230)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:15 AM

232. You just want to tighten that control by destroying a powerful union

Got it.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #232)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:21 AM

233. An evil one that supports human rights abuse.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #233)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:27 AM

234. All union busters can justify their actions. Even left wing union busters. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #234)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:32 AM

235. All cop lovers can justify their actions. Even left win Cop lovers.

See how that works? But hey, keep supporting a gang of murderers and theives employed by the 1%.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #235)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:51 AM

237. You are the one that will give the 1% absolute control of the police by destroying the union

Just who do you think is going to assume the power presently held by the unions? Who benifits most from a compliant police force with no collective bargaining rights?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #237)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 06:53 PM

240. Certainly not the public.

The police are a menace and need to be reduced in size and have drastic restrictions placed on them.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #240)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:22 PM

241. You just said the police are the tool of the 1%

So what you propose is impossible until the power of the 1% is broken. Because otherwise it will be the 1% tightening their grip on power under the guise of police "reform".

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Response to hack89 (Reply #241)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:23 PM

242. You make no sense. We re done here.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #242)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:24 PM

243. You were done a long time ago. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #243)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:28 PM

244. Lol wow sweet comeback bro. Feel better?

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #244)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:29 PM

245. So you are not done after all? Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #245)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:35 PM

246. So you are not done after all?

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #246)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 07:49 PM

247. Granted, getting a straight answer out of you will take a while

But you were the one who said they were done, not me. I am willing to continue the conversation.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #247)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 09:26 PM

248. There is no conversation.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #248)

Thu Jan 1, 2015, 09:55 PM

249. I thought we were talking about you busting a large public employee union

And strengthening the hold of the 1% over the police.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #249)

Fri Jan 2, 2015, 07:13 AM

250. No we were talking about your support for racist thugs.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #104)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:16 PM

137. Get back to us when the military is unionized and gets collective bargaining rights.

Civilian military my ass.

Signed: 20 year Navy veteran.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #137)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:40 AM

189. I dont think cops should be allowed to unionize either.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #189)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:55 AM

190. Same for all governement employees, right?

can't have them disrespecting the authority of those in charge.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #190)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:02 AM

224. No. Just cops.

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Response to ncjustice80 (Reply #224)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:06 AM

226. Break one union you weaken all of them

Is that your real goal?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #226)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:07 AM

228. Lol Im pro union and anti- racist human rights abuse.

Are you pro racism?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:10 PM

95. +1 and that it IS a police state because they can?

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #14)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:37 PM

161. In carrying out their first amendment rights they disrespected their Mayor.

They also disrespected one of their own with a childish display at the funeral of Officer Ramos. You know what they said, it's 'ALL ABOUT ME'. No honor for the dead, no respect for the officer or Eric Garner that was strangled to death by their own.

The protesters deserve their first amendments rights as well.

Here is the PD response to them








Question for you, who is policing the police? And whyb do they have a right to protest and others do not?

Excellent question, can you answer it for me?

Why should they suffer any consequences for exercising their first amendment rights?


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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #6)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:17 PM

20. In a police state

 

they wouldn't be able to do that.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #6)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:09 PM

94. Thats the First Amendment

People openly call for all kinds of things. That's freedom, not a police state.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:06 PM

10. You sound like you've been comatose for the past 3 weeks

 

Last edited Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:09 PM - Edit history (2)

Did you notice the NYPD turning backs on NYC mayor i.e. their 'boss'

Did you notice the despicable 'protection racket' rhetoric of NYPD police union boss, Pat Lynch?

Just because the USA is an corporate oligarchy instead of a classic straight-ahead dictatorship (with only ONE ruler), does NOT mean that the repressive draconian often murderous treatment of the poor and certain racial minorities should be deemed somehow "acceptable".

Young black males cannot safely be in public places anymore without chancing a bullet in the head, from some cop having a bad day. And it's the police "unions" who are the chief apologists for this murderous police behavior.

Your rationale didn't even make sense three weeks ago, but now it's completely lost it's legs.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:26 PM

28. Precisely!

 

And as long as we have police apologists, it will just get worse.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #10)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:36 PM

37. Not really, that one never can say anything bad about authority.

 

Ever. Like a broken record, he/she will always defend the state no matter how obvious the wrong doing is.

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Response to Rex (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:38 AM

57. You got that right.

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Response to BeanMusical (Reply #57)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:44 AM

74. Yup

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Response to Rex (Reply #37)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:12 PM

99. In a real police state, you couldn't.

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Response to treestar (Reply #99)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:49 PM

146. doesn't that...

 

depend on how severely they want to crack down?
Yes it does. I predict the crackdown will become more severe.

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:05 AM

85. +

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #10)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:12 PM

97. You don't know the term police state or what it means

This is not a police state. Look up what it means. It means what I said in my post. You have to be comatose a lot longer to believe a phrase means what you decided it means to make things sound worse than they are.

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Response to treestar (Reply #97)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:54 PM

147. ok...

 

"Police State Definition
dictionary.search.yahoo.com
n. noun

A state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the people, especially by means of a secret police force.



Police state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state Cached
Police state is a term that originally designated a state regulated by a civil administration, but since the middle of the 20th Century, the term has "taken on the emotional and derogatory meaning of a government that exercises power arbitrarily through the police."
Police state - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/police%20state Cached

Police state | Define Police state at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/police+state Cached
noun 1. a nation in which the police, especially a secret police, summarily suppresses any social, economic, or political act that conflicts with governmental policy."

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #10)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 04:06 PM

176. + a brazilian.

 

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:14 PM

16. a police state is not one where 'one ruler has all the power'. it could be, but it doesn't have to

 

po·lice state

noun: police state; plural noun: police states

a totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities.

since the middle of the 20th Century, the term has "taken on the emotional and derogatory meaning of a government that exercises power arbitrarily through the police."[1]

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[2] Robert von Mohl, who first introduced the rule of law to German jurisprudence, contrasted the Rechtsstaat ("legal" or "constitutional" state) with the aristocratic Polizeistaat ("police state".[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state


An autocracy is a system of government in which a supreme power is concentrated in the hands of one person, whose decisions are subject to neither external legal restraints nor regularized mechanisms of popular control (except perhaps for the implicit threat of coup d'état or mass insurrection).[1]

Both totalitarianism and military dictatorship are often identified with, but need not be, an autocracy. Totalitarianism is a system where the state strives to control every aspect of life and civil society. It can be headed by a supreme dictator, making it autocratic, but it can also have a collective leadership such as a commune or political party.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:54 PM

50. yeah this thread is black helicopters and FEMA camps

 

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Response to uhnope (Reply #50)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:19 PM

158. I find that quite insulting

 

I am not talking about fictional events that haven't happened, but events that are documented and in the news. To equate actual murders with non existent black helicopters is pretty disrespectful to the dead.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #158)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:46 PM

162. I find that a strawman since you know I didn't say that

 

I was replying in agreement to this statement not by you:

That's not a police state

A police state is where one ruler has all the power and the police are his goons to carry out enforcement of his desires without regard to any law - only the ruler's desires. Courts that exist are for show.


So to start yelling "police state" in the present conditions is similar to the folks who yell "FEMA camps" at something Obama does--a gross exaggeration that serves no good purpose and tends to of undermine the very concern in the first place. In this case, you lose serious people who are concerned about police abuse in the USA.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:11 AM

54. No I guess it is more like the Pretorian Guards.

Where no Emperor could rule without their support...And they could kill anyone they wanted and no one could tell them not to.
Which one is more dangerous, a police state like you say with a ruler that calls the shots or a police force that does?
Either way it is a police state.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #54)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:14 PM

100. They are still subject to the law here

The entire case law of the courts is not meaningless. Miranda opinion came out and meant they had to give the warnings. In a police state they would not have to do what another branch says like that.

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Response to treestar (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:14 PM

105. And they make a joke of the Miranda rights.

They read the rights and then tell the suspect that if you cooperate with them they will be easier with them...then ask them if they want to talk...they defy the courts all the time and get away with it...so it is all form and no substance.
If they are subject to the laws and the laws are not enforced, (and they are law enforcement) what good is the law?

Nope they thumb their noes at the law, and who is going to enforce it?
There were laws in Rome too, but the Praetorian gard killed anyone that got in the way including the emperor himself if he did not please them.

We are in those dangerous times.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #105)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:35 PM

110. It is not like that here

And the law is not "a joke." There are hundreds of cases limiting police and if they don't follow those laws, they can be sued/fired and some may have criminal charges. Where it's done no one on DU will pay attention. People from real police states would laugh in the face of the accusation that the US is one.

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Response to treestar (Reply #110)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 06:27 PM

184. + another 100

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Response to treestar (Reply #110)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 09:05 PM

187. Well when will we know it is one?

When the police thumb their noses at the law and the law makers that make the law and the people they serve?
If it is a slow process does it count?

And I did not say the law is a joke, I said some cops make a joke of the law...and some act above the law and outside of the law...and when they start bringing charges against them it will stop.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #187)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:20 PM

209. When there is no system of laws at all

that is does not work perfectly doesn't mean it does not work at all.

When there is no real Congress and it's just for show - no courts and just show trials and certainly, no legal opinions concerning the 4th, 5th or 6th amendments and no possibility of suing the police department for wrongful acts.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #105)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 06:27 PM

183. Your understanding of the legal process with

criminal defendants is deeply flawed. There is hardly a defendant alive (to not say "none" that doesn't know about and understand Miranda warnings. They are not so stupid to believe cops'
statements about "if you cooperate with us it'll go easier for you" and most defendants are quick to "lawyer up" (a derogatary term much loved by the RW). The days of cajoling a criminal defendant into voluntarily waiving his/her Miranda rights are long gone.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #183)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 08:55 PM

186. The well off and educated lawyer up

But the rest cooperate and get jail if they don't.
There is a two tiered system and I am talking about the lower tier.
And your understanding of that lower system is flawed.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #186)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:38 AM

188. Yep. After 25 years as an attorney

my understanding of the lower system is flawed. Got it.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #188)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 10:41 AM

192. Well it clearly is if you think that a poor person can call his lawyer

When arrested by the police.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #192)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 10:55 AM

193. Try Googling "Public Defender". You will be amazed.

P.S. - Even if the accused doesn't have a P.D. at the moment of beind questioned, the cops have to scrupulously honor his/her "I want a lawyer" when being questioned. Once the magic phrase is uttered, the cops have to stop - and they do. No cop wants a perp to walk because they blew the Miranda warning.

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Response to COLGATE4 (Reply #193)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 01:23 PM

194. There are Innocent people in prison right now that had a public defender.

And the stories are all over the place if you wanted to hear it.
But what you are talking about is in theory not practice...the practice is that the cops will threaten poor people with jail time on a trumped up charge or pile on all kinds of charges to intimidate them into cooperating with them.
But if you have been a lawyer for the last 25 years you are far separated from the people I am talking about...those without power or money are putty in the hands of the cops.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #194)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 03:18 PM

197. Keep talking. You may evemtually convince yourself.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #194)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:24 PM

211. poor people have TVs and have been through the public school system

There is no way they do not know they have a right to a lawyer.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #186)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:22 PM

210. A lawyer will be provided for you if you cannot afford one

everyone knows that.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #54)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 04:11 PM

202. Seems strange that you rush to call the US a police state

 

yet you defend Putin's Russia to the end. Hmmmm I wonder what's up with that

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Response to uhnope (Reply #202)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 06:36 PM

208. What is up with that is the "with us or against us" meme.

I will continue to judge things in the best way I know how, and that is on the merits of actions and not words...and the actions are that of a police state and what the rest of the world is doing makes no difference at all to those facts.

I don't live in Russia and I have no power to change Russia, and I am not up for another cold war that seems to be the goal of some.
When my own house is clean then I will think about telling others to clean theirs...and we have a lot of cleaning to do right here...and will not be distracted by the outrage machine that always points to other countries to distract us.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #208)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:30 PM

212. An example of a police state exists

in parts of Soviet Russia. People who fled there to come to a place like this can tell you what it's really like.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[2] Robert von Mohl, who first introduced the rule of law to German jurisprudence, contrasted the Rechtsstaat ("legal" or "constitutional" state) with the aristocratic Polizeistaat ("police state".[3]


Examples of states with related attributes[edit]
The Soviet Union and its many satellite states, including East Germany and those that were part of the Soviet bloc, had extensive and repressive police and intelligence services (such as the KGB); approximately 2.5% of the East German adult population served as informants for the Stasi.[9]

Nazi Germany, a dictatorship, was brought into being through a nominal democracy, yet gradually exerted more and more repressive controls over its people in the lead-up to World War II. Nazi Germany was indeed a police state, using the SS and the Gestapo to assert control over the population from the 1930s until the end of the war.[10]

During the period of Apartheid, the South African government maintained police state attributes such as banning people and organizations, arresting political prisoners, and maintaining segregated living communities and restricting movement and access.[11]


Other examples at link.

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Response to treestar (Reply #212)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:46 PM

214. "yet gradually exerted more and more repressive controls over its people"

Well that is exactly the state we are in now...so you are saying it is not yet a police state so we should ignore it like the Germans did?
We can quibble about exactly when it is one but that is not the point...we don't want to go there even a little bit.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #214)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:55 PM

216. What's repressive?

We have freedom of speech. Look at the things that get said about Obama. I don't think Stalin had to hear that.

And Obama's only the tip of the iceberg.

We can't be put in prison for speaking alone. Most protestors are not arrested. Those that are have to be let go if a prosecutor cannot prove the elements of a legally defined crime against them (and then it would be minor, like "disturbing the peace" which requires more than mere protesting).

I guess you could argue about the Patriot Act, but it can still be challenged in court. We got past 911 without anything worse.

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Response to treestar (Reply #216)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 11:53 PM

219. You have the illusion of freedom.

As long as they can spy on you and know every last thing you said you are not a problem to them until you do something...and when you have what we have now, a "total information awareness" they can know what you are doing and even what you may do...you are controlled.
And if you become a threat to them they can take you out one way or the other.

And the beauty of it is that you think you are free and so will do nothing but make excuses for them when they violate anyones rights.
There is no difference between that and the classic police state of old...it is just in the past they did not have the tools we have today and so they used force and intimidation where now they use information and media to control us with...but in the end the police have the same power as the Nazis did...the ability to violate your rights without fear of punishment.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:53 PM

133. +100 !!! Keep speaking out! (nt)

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:11 PM

135. Shhh ...

 

Do throw water on the hyperbole.

We're in a police state wrote the free man on the internet that is being monitored by the NSA.

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Response to treestar (Reply #3)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:39 PM

144. no!

 

it is not a prerequisite that the police state be ruled only by one person.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 10:53 PM

4. Police murdering citizens + CIA torturing at-will = Police State

 

Yes. I too have noticed the uncanny symmetry of recent events, confirming most of my worse suspicions
about the Fascist state of our supposed 'Union' ... and it is ghastly.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:00 PM

5. You have no clue what a real police state is. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:04 PM

7. What's your point? That everything is cool? It could be worse but it's bad enough. nm

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:06 PM

9. My point is America is not a police state.

nothing more and nothing less. No, things are not perfect but on the other hand things are not any worse.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:08 PM

11. The police are killing citizens, esp black citizens, with impunity. With out control it will get

 

worse. Do you think we should wait?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:14 PM

15. Are they killing more now than they were 20, 30, 40 years ago?

I doubt that is the case. When I was born the police in the south were enforcing Jim Crow laws - do you really things are worse now then they were back then?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:38 AM

58. I am still searching for a point. I hope you are not rationalizing this. nm

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:42 AM

69. They are rationalizing it.

Now that we have cameras all over the place, we now know what these fuckers have been doing for decades. Maybe a century? Probably.

We need some indictments.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #58)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:52 AM

77. The police are too aggressive and militarized.

They shoot too many people. That does not make us a police state. Clearer now?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #77)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:01 AM

82. whats an endless, extrajudicial killing spree with no repercussion?

 

just boys having fun.
God Bless America...

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Response to reddread (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:06 AM

86. Something to be stopped?

Do you agree that it is aimed a small segment of our society? In a police state the majority white middle class and the intelligentsia would be killed and terrorized.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:20 AM

88. cant kill whats already dead

 

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Response to reddread (Reply #88)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:48 AM

89. Ok. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #86)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:23 PM

159. So we can't be a police state

 

because the police aren't killing enough people.

Got it.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #159)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 10:53 AM

168. Police state can mean anything you want it to be I guess.

doesn't mean we have to agree with you. It is not like you are someone special.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #168)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 01:48 PM

195. I never claimed to be anyone special

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #195)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 02:10 PM

196. The arm flapping angst over people disagreeing with you

Certainly confirms that.

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Response to reddread (Reply #82)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:19 PM

107. it's not even a molehill

in a 7 year span it was reported that a whole 4,813 people died in "Arrest related deaths"
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf
From 2003 to 2009

In ONE year - way back in 1990

46,800 people died in car accidents
45,200 people died in other accidents
30,900 people committed suicide
24,900 people died from homicides

So one one side we have 130,000 deaths on the other side we have 700. Which is just HUGH!!!1!! It's even cooler if you compare seven years to seven years. Then it is 910,000 vs 4,813.

It's a police state. It's endless. It's a killing SPREE.

Would somebody please notify Chicken Little and Red Foxx. This is the BIG ONE!!!

I mean, come on, every imperfection in society is not the end of the world.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #107)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:27 PM

160. So as long as the police murder

 

just a certain amount of people relative to auto accidents, that okay by you?

Wow.

Just wow.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #11)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 07:05 AM

165. in police state they would not even be considered for indictment

nor could there be any civil suits

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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:09 PM

12. Will you ever say "enough is enough"?

 

If current events have not compelled you to utter 'enough is enough', I doubt that
anything ever will.

Therefore I conclude that you are in full favor of the police state tactics and murderous behavior of
police.

If I have this wrong, please show me where?

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Response to 99th_Monkey (Reply #12)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:18 PM

21. When I was born the police were violently enforcing Jim Crow laws in the south

do you really things are worse now then they were then? Do you really think the police are killing more people now then they were then?

Fuck you and your insinuation that I support police murdering innocent people. All I said is we are not a police state. Because we are not. Not by any stretch of the imagination. Do we have an over aggressive and militarized police? Yes we do. And do they kill too many people? Yes they do. But we are not a police state.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:47 AM

71. Black People DO Say It's Worse

 

As far as the police are concerned. People could enforce racist segregating laws but now we have Jim Crow laws in disguise...the Drug War. A much much bigger % of Black people are imprisoned. It's way worse. Freedom has decayed and vanished more for every one of every race too. You don't seem to notice like a frog not noticing the water is boiling that it's in. Police were never militarized before and the way they terrorize communities is more far reaching now then it ever used to be. Your perspective seems willfully ignorant.

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Response to billhicks76 (Reply #71)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:57 AM

79. I specifically said the police are too aggressive and shoot too many people

Don't we see eye to eye on the issue that counts? Having seen more than one real police state personally, I simply disagree that America is a police state. We are a long way from being a true police state.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:49 AM

73. The ACLU would beg to differ.

Me too.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #73)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:53 AM

78. Link please? Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #21)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:45 AM

75. Perhaps we differ in our definition of a "police state"

 

In my universe, anytime the police are over-aggressive,hyper-militarized, and are killing too many people, it's fair game to call it a police state.

You disagree. Fine

At least we are clear now as to the nature of our 'disagreement'.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #9)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:15 PM

19. Then you have a point..

It's a MEANINGLESS point that is black or white without definition or example, but point, none-the-less.

You can go back to sleep, now.

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #19)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:20 PM

25. ok nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:06 PM

8. A state where the police act with impunity

 

and without sanction and where court proceedings are purely for show.

How many examples of a corrupt police (at all levels of government) and a corrupt judiciary (up to and including the Supreme Court) do you require?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #8)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:12 PM

13. Research East Germany - it was once called the perfect police state

even the KGB envied their control over the population. There is no comparison with America.

Where I live the police do not act with impunity. The state patrol has an impeccable reputation for integrity and routinely investigate and prosecute local police departments for breaking the law.

Rhode island has a reputation for political corruption - on the other hand we routinely see Rhode Island politicians investigated and removed from office. They are removed with the help of the federal law enforcement and the judiciary.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #13)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:18 PM

22. Yes, the STASI

 

You can read about its former chief admiring U.S. spying on its own citizens here:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045_memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html?rh=1

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:23 PM

26. Remember what the STASI did with that information?

when your friends and neighbors start disappearing in the middle of the night, let me know.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:32 PM

32. When that happens

 

It will be a bit fucking late, don't you think?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:46 AM

70. +1

I thought someone should, at least in some small way, recognize your post.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #32)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:23 PM

108. We are not even heading in that direction. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #108)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:15 PM

122. The police kill without fear of retribution

 

unless it is a member of the power structure. Politicians publicly admit to war crimes and dare us to arrest them, and we don't.

American citizens can be declared "enemies of the state" and executed without trial.

So, we are not only headed in that direction, we have pretty much arrived at the outskirts.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #122)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:16 PM

123. Ok. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #26)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:44 PM

45. They're not disappeared. They are shot dead

In broad daylight in the middle of the street and left there for hours as a reminder.
This IS a fucking police state.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #5)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:15 PM

18. Police State:

 

Police state is a term that originally designated a state regulated by a civil administration, but since the middle of the 20th Century, the term has "taken on the emotional and derogatory meaning of a government that exercises power arbitrarily through the police."[1]

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[2] Robert von Mohl, who first introduced the rule of law to German jurisprudence, contrasted the Rechtsstaat ("legal" or "constitutional" state) with the aristocratic Polizeistaat ("police state".


History of usage

The term "police state" was first used in 1851, in reference to the use of a national police force to maintain order, in Austria.[4] The Oxford English Dictionary traces the phrase "police State" back to 1851. The German term Polizeistaat came into English usage in the 1930s with reference to totalitarian governments that had begun to emerge in Europe.

Genuine police states are fundamentally authoritarian, and are often dictatorships. However, the degree of government repression varies widely among societies.

In times of national emergency or war, the balance which may usually exist between freedom and national security often tips in favour of security. This shift may lead to allegations that the nation in question has become, or is becoming, a police state.


More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state


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Response to WillyT (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:19 PM

23. Thanks for supporting my view

The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state


We are no where close to this

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Response to hack89 (Reply #23)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:26 PM

29. If You Say So...

 

In times of national emergency or war, the balance which may usually exist between freedom and national security often tips in favour of security. This shift may lead to allegations that the nation in question has become, or is becoming, a police state.


I'd like to head it off at the pass, if it's all the same to you.


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Response to WillyT (Reply #29)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:59 AM

81. Sure - let's reign in the NSA and demilitarize the police

You will get no argument from me.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #23)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:47 AM

72. You forgot the sarcasm thingie.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #72)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:02 AM

83. My computer appears to be missing the hyperbol key that many of you seem to have

No matter how much I try, it won't make outlandish claims based on the outrage du jour.

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Response to WillyT (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:38 PM

41. "Degree of government repression varies widely among societies…"

For this reason, WillyT, I believe it's difficult to determine the severity. But, it does exist in what I believe to be a wide-spread manner in the U.S.

Take for example, institutions of higher learning. They are dictated by their ability to raise money and the levels that are guaranteed survival are basically at the top. The debt bubble is growing for anyone who isn't already able to pay. These are the same people banging at the walls trying to get in to become something in a scheme of "get an education to rise in society".

Another example is the organizations that employ lots of people and suppress wages. I believe there was a thread earlier tonight calling them the real welfare queens. I agree because they - A) Don't pay real estate taxes as non-profits - B) Lobby state general assemblies to allow them to exist as non-profits and C) Keep most of their employees from having a career ladder, thus sustained under-employment, non-union pay, no collective bargaining. This all creates a permanent underclass.

It's corporatism, but it's controlled by very view. Oligarchy? It's certainly kept in check. No one can really get away from jobs that keep them in a permanent state of fear. Fear of loosing jobs, and now, fear of being extricated from gainful employment when they dare to step up and protest…. especially if they are persons of color.

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Response to WillyT (Reply #18)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:34 PM

142. A genuine police state only needs politicians

who, by and large, behave as if police efficiency trumps civil liberties (or putting the police above the rule of law). This can be called an authoritarian attitude.

FWIW, the War On Drugs really does appear to be a civil war the induced the formation of a police state -- decades ago.

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Response to cprise (Reply #142)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:53 PM

154. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

 

Exactly !!!




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Response to hack89 (Reply #5)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:40 AM

68. 2 Million People In Jail

 

Largest incarceration rate per capita in the world is the USA. 707 per 100,000 and number 2 is Cuba with 510 per 100,000. It's not even close. You educate yourself and stop wasting our time with your useless comments.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:15 PM

17. That word.."police state"..

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Response to X_Digger (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:20 PM

24. police state

 

Now considered one word instead of two.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:27 PM

30. I bet you brown people and white people view this issue differently

I mean for christ sake a Black man cant feel safe walking down a street anymore

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Response to randys1 (Reply #30)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:35 PM

35. Personally I am white

 

but I have seen and experienced enough police abuse to know that the police pretty much act as they please with little fear of consequences.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #35)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:36 PM

36. and they lie constantly

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #24)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:39 PM

42. LOL!

 

Give them a break, desperation does that to cheerleaders.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:25 PM

27. I guess you really weren't addressing this to me...

Our household has recognized this for some time. It solidified by seeing the way the Senate did nothing to prevent the direction of this SCOTUS. I literally LAUGH at these intelligence committees for being shocked, I tell you, shocked at the CIA's actions. Everything, especially in the Bush years, confirmed what we were in for.

Now, the rule of law for some has become Animal Farm. For sure, this is something I recognized. It happened to me as a local official when standing up to corruption a year back. At that level,we are nothing more than a harmonic of what rings up the line.

In the face of this, though, we can't kiss our collective asses "good-bye". More people are bound to know this, but are keeping silent for reasons for which we might wonder.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:34 PM

33. The police work to protect the 1%

 

And their precious property. Through in abundant racism and systemic corruption along with military surplus hardware. Yea, the US is a violent and racist police state, and there is no hyperbole in that statement.

Question or protest and you will be maced,tasered,shot at,and have sound cannons blasted at you. Then if you dont die, they will arrest you,fine you,and force you to perform prison slave labor for 35 cents an hour.


Yea, its a fucking police state

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Response to Ramses (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:37 PM

39. WELL, when you put it that way, sure Lol WE are so fucked

I wonder how many private police the Koch bros and Walton's have

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Response to randys1 (Reply #39)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:08 AM

53. The 1% own the electronic voting machines

 

They make sure we get fucked over using taxpayer dollars. They have said that they could hire half of us to kill the other half.

Add in ignorant racist asshole only more than willing to do the job, and we most certainly have ourselves a police state

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Response to Ramses (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:37 PM

40. And dare to question it even here

 

And you will find many willing to make excuses or flat out deny reality.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:45 PM

47. they will ignore,equivocate,deny and distract

 

They will say no every single person is in prison yet, or has been shot at by police or have had their money confiscated at a traffic stop. Im sure not every American has had their pet murdered yet by one of these cowards,so all is well.

America has THE LARGES PRISON population on planet earth, and yet some will say with a straight face we arent quite a police state.

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Response to Ramses (Reply #47)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:01 PM

114. I see that here often.

People aren't being disappeared in the middle of the night so it's not a police state. People aren't being gathered up en masse to go to jail, so it's not a police state. People don't have to show their ID at every corner so it's not a police state. These are probably the same people where, if living in a dictatorship, would insist it's not a dictatorship because the dictator didn't have a small black mustache.

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Response to Ramses (Reply #33)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:54 AM

90. " The police work to protect the 1%"

Nothing made that more clear than when Occupy started the protests in NYC,
and THIS happened:

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:40 PM

43. Damn skippy?

Damn skippy!

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:44 PM

46. Between

the war on drugs and the war on terror we lost our rights. As far as us being better than East Germany was, even if I agree with that statement that's a pretty f'n low bar.

K&R

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Response to ctsnowman (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:47 PM

48. Absolutely

 

Some folk seem to think that unless the police start wearing swastika arm bands everything is copacetic. One poster told me to let him know when people started disappearing in the night, then he would give my views some credence.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 27, 2014, 11:53 PM

49. People's homes are being raided every night

all across the country. While their people may know where they are they are still lost to the black hole of the "justice" system. Many are never given proper representation and can't afford it so they plea out even if not guilty. This is widely known to any who care to face the truth.

Peace and thanks for the post.

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Response to ctsnowman (Reply #49)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:01 AM

51. Police routinely steal people's money

 

Last edited Sun Dec 28, 2014, 11:34 PM - Edit history (1)

and property under civil forfeiture "laws", but some folk here seems to think that since the "law" allows it, it is legal, thus we are not a police state.

Methinks they would sing a different tune were they the victims of such "legalities".

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:21 AM

55. There is a term for when the armed forces overthrow an elected government.....

 

Do we dare call it an attempted coup d'état?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:39 AM

59. You forgot to name the NSA.

They are totally rogue.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:50 AM

60. Many will continue to deny this fact until the day they day.

 

So much easier to believe we live in a "democracy" and that we are "free."

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:52 AM

61. I believe you! n/t

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:14 AM

62. I have believed that for years. n/t

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:34 AM

65. It's been like this at least since the Iran—Contra days.

Once Pappy Bush got hold of the CIA................well now you know the rest of the story. New World Order and everything! How you liking it?

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #65)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:02 AM

84. a land of lawlessness and misdirected suckers.

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 06:13 AM

76. Absolutely. nt

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:00 AM

91. it's a 'uniquely american' form of police state

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:12 AM

92. We are not a country of laws.

I've known that for some time.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:16 AM

93. In a police state, you would not be allowed to post this.

 

In a police state, you would not know what the CIA is up to. In a police state, we would not be debating the idiotic statements by NYPD.

So no. What we do have is too damned many people in the country, which leads to complacency and lack of interest in changing the laws.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #93)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:12 PM

98. This the the 21st Century police state

 

You can allow the people to know all sorts of thing, you can even allow them to have massive arsenals of weapons. You just rely on people to deny that such things exist and keep telling them that they can't be living in a police state because now one is wearing swastika armbands and they get to say what they like, to a point. If they start actually organizing REAL opposition in the streets, you crush that shit fast and hard (See the Occupy movement and heavy-handed police responses to Ferguson).

Willful denial of reality is the modern police states best friend.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #98)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:50 PM

113. By that definition, we've always been a police state

as is virtually every other government in existence.

Silly.

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Response to onenote (Reply #113)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:12 PM

121. No, we used to actually, on occasion

 

punish politicians, police and judges who broke the law. Now we don't.

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Response to onenote (Reply #131)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:53 PM

153. Again, punishment is the exception

 

How many high-profile police murders have occurred in the last year and how many of these policemen were punished? The former VP of the United States admitted to war crimes and has dared us to do anything about it. We didn't. In fact, the current administration is now complicit in torture after the fact. And do I really need to cite how many times Scalia and company have violated judicial ethics and acted in a completely criminal manner?

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Response to randome (Reply #93)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:16 PM

101. huh?

Our problem is "too damned many people in the country, which leads to complacency and lack of interests in changing the laws…?

And, would you care to explain THAT one?

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Response to MrMickeysMom (Reply #101)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:06 PM

115. I see over-population as the cause of many of the world's ills.

 

The more people, the more competition for resources (money). The more competition, the more some look for loopholes. The more who look for loopholes, the more laws get broken or the more politicians are enlisted to change the laws to benefit the few.

All of this leads to complacency, IMO, because people are too busy trying to stand out in a crowd to rally against injustice.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)
[/center][/font][hr]

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Response to randome (Reply #115)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:24 PM

116. What increased competition would a "too big" population have, then?

And, while we are drilling down on that, how would money directly increase that resource when 85 of the richest persons in the world have as much wealth as the poorest half of the world?

The people who needed the financial loopholes are at the top of the wealth income distribution. This is why trickle down economics never worked. There are no financial incentives for more and more jobs at McDonalds or WalMart. All that money never made it's way to well paying jobs.

The people I work around who tend to get "complacent" are those who started to go back to school, but deferred their money elsewhere (on the next generation), which laid them with unpaid student loans. The loopholes here allow one of my workmates to have 15% of her paycheck garnished. Now, there may be laws as to how much legally her paycheck may be garnished, but 15% of less than $10/hr when she works 40 hours a week doesn't give much hope to being able to climb her way up the ladder, especially when the ladder is horizontal. I am referring to the REAL welfare queens of society, which is the corporation she and I work for.

Your logic fails me when considering who exactly influences tax or labor loopholes. Congress doesn't have the ear of the 99%, it's the highest of income individuals. The Supreme Court has given this an even higher playing field.

I think over population of corporations is the thing you may reconsider, as they have far more influence over the competition of resources than you've thus far described.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 12:18 PM

102. The existence of this thread and DU disproves your claim. nt

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:19 PM

106. Lol! You have a comic book view of police states.

 

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 02:40 PM

117. Exponential logical fallacy , Dreamer...

Your reasoning is an appeal to a common belief… "If opinions are posted here, it's proof we don't have a police state"

When we are uncertain about something, I guess it's easier for some of us to think that one thing is proof of another, when in fact, it is not.

Would we need evidence of this? Yes….

a political unit (as a nation) characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by the police and especially secret police in place of the regular operation of the administrative and judicial organs of the government according to established legal processes: a totalitarian state.


It sounds like we've already started counting how many ways people are being repressed. First it starts with driving, walking and shopping or carrying a toy gun while being black. Then, it escalates when protesting in a park under the guise of OWS, which were quickly addressed by secret police inside this (peaceful) operation. Keep a list, but don't wait until the last minute to meet the definition. We already have mounting evidence.

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Response to Dreamer Tatum (Reply #102)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:46 PM

129. Nope

 

As I explain in other parts of the thread this is the "New Police State". Dissent that is just pointing out the truth is tolerated as long as it doesn't result in actual action, like say, the Occupy movement. When that happens, it is brutally suppressed, like say, the Occupy movement.

We are also allowed to have LOTS of guns, as long as we are the right color and only use them on each other.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 01:42 PM

112. Well you pissed off all the authoritarians with your comment

 

So I will have to kick&rec this thread! Just for that one reason alone!

Funny watching cop/control freak wannabees defend our version of a modern police state. Well, pathetic really but they've been doing it since the beginning of DU1.

Glad to see nobody falls for their pile of shit anymore. It was sad to watch on DU1 and DU2. Looks like DU3 is not having any of it!



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Response to Rex (Reply #112)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:39 PM

128. It is like arguing as to whether a black horse

 

is actually the exact shade of black to be called a black horse.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 03:17 PM

118. How about we all agree that we can call it a "police-ish" state?

 

Would that satisfy the semantical differences we are encountering?

There is little disagreement over the issues. Few are disputing that the police are militarized, tend toward brutality, are protected from prosecution, and are hypocritical of civil rights.

But we can post about it! So this can't be a police state. I propose the compromise term, "policeish" to denote a state where police can exceed their legal authority, assault and arrest peaceful assemblies, and they are covered and exonerated by the system.

--imm

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Response to immoderate (Reply #118)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:36 PM

127. As I explain in another post

 

this is the modern police state. Posting on forums criticizing the police state is fine, as long as you don't actually try to organize in the street. Then they will crush you. You can have all the guns you can eat, as long as you are the right color and use them on the right people.

I really don't understand people's refusal to accept that this is a police state:

1) Torture is legal

2) War criminals, including the former Vice President of the United States OPENLY admit to torture, are proud of it and state uncategorically they would torture innocent people without remorse. They walk the streets while people of the wrong color who dare to be in the wrong place are murdered without consequence.

3) Anti-government protests are tolerated unless they actually look like they may accomplish something, then they are brutally suppressed.

4) Money and property are "legally" stolen from people every day under civil forfeiture laws.

5) Citizens are spied upon with impunity.

6) Citizens may be declared "terrorists" and simply executed by drone without trial.

7) We have a death penalty that is regularly applied with little regard for actual innocence. In fact, the Supreme Court ruled that actual innocence was not a compelling reason not to execute someone (look up Herrera v. Collins)

8) We have a massive prison system which provides slave labor to corporate America and routinely abuses prisoners.

I really don't know what else I can do to prove that by any reasonable definition of the term we are a police state, even if we don't have guys running around in leather jack boots, speaking in German accents.

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Response to immoderate (Reply #118)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:57 PM

171. I'd be willing to accept that.

 

The problem is words have meaning and it simply is not a police state here.

I've been in countries that were police states. In those countries, the populace is terrified to question government/police whatever in any way. The kind of criticism that President Obama has received would have gotten all the Tea Partiers shot/disappeared in a police state and may have gotten their families arrested.

As many others noted, we would not have this forum in a police state. Long ago we would have all been visited by groups of police warning us not to do it again (post anything questioning the government).

You can pooh-pooh this, but that is what a police state means.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 03:26 PM

119. Depends on who you are..

As seen in the thread many DU'ers don't have any problems so they must not exist.

Funny, as soon as one of them has their rights violated they may sing a different tune.

I have seen stories of people arrested for posting "fuck the cops" on Facebook, so every one of these "no and because you posted this there is no police state" responses is crap.

Yeah maybe you haven't seen the edges of the police state yet, but just because this isn't Nazi Germany yet does not mean that we aren't close to it.

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Response to SomethingFishy (Reply #119)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:19 PM

125. Exactly my point

 

only when we have a police state with all the trappings can people admit their is a police state?

As I said in another post, kind of late by that point, is it not?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #125)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 04:27 PM

126. Yup.. I think it's too late now. People are accepting their new status

and some of them are enjoying it.

There are enough people scared enough to capitulate that unless there is a serious change in the media, or a serious conscience altering event, it will be entirely too late when they figure it out.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 07:51 PM

132. No. Of course not. That's nonsense. (nt)

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 08:12 PM

136. The single most characteristic feature of a police state -- DEATH WITHOUT TRIAL -- is present.

So, there is that.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #136)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:03 PM

139. Bingo !!!

 



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Response to Octafish (Reply #136)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:20 PM

140. And the reasoning -- Efficiency and morale of the police trumping civil liberties

Is also present in spades.

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Response to Octafish (Reply #136)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 01:36 AM

163. If that's the characteristic feature of a police state, then the US has always been a police state

since the police have been using deadly force for our entire history.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:32 PM

141. k & r! n/t

 

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 09:57 PM

148. There are degrees of a police state

 

And yeah we are living in a police state dedicated to the richest of the rich, mega multi national corporations and wall street.

We are all slaves to those entities. What to see how "free" you really are? Go against those people and institutions I mentioned like Occupy Wall Street did.

Usually the cops confine most of their murderous rage to the poor and minority communities but hey...challenge the rich, big business and wall street?

The gloves came right off and the mask of "serve and protect" gave way to police riots against unarmed and peaceful protesters of any color. Also much of this was not reported by the MSM who are in most cases servants of the power structure as well.

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Response to workinclasszero (Reply #148)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:47 PM

152. Exactly my point

 

However, some people have a list and unless every item on that list is checked, then we can't be a police state.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:34 PM

150. If you don't think it's a police state

You have no idea how the NYC police operate.

You need to educate yourself.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Sun Dec 28, 2014, 10:40 PM

151. I thought it was gonna happen the night of Oct 20, 1973.

I expected to wake up to tanks in the street on the morning after Nixon's Saturday Night Massacre.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #151)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 04:10 PM

201. Not even close...

Unless Nixon was hoing to suspend Congress, which he had no remotely legal option of doing, he would always have faced impeachment and removal. The military then, and the military today are not prepared to revoke the constitutional separation of powers. Which is another example of why we DON'T live in a "Police State".

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #201)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 05:49 PM

206. Here's the scenario I thought might unfold:

1) Nixon announces plan to commit more ground troops to Cambodia
2) Demonstrations erupt across America
3) Nixon activates the Guard & clamps down, declares martial law, all the rest.

No need at that point to actually send troops to Cambodia.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 08:51 AM

167. Despite the numerous

dictionary-backed purists who are attacking your message based on a mere quibble, KM, this'll certainly do until they get around to establishing a bona fide, dictionary supported police state.

It seems like their biggest concern is that you can get away with saying this is a police state. Like the Police State really gives a flying fuck what one of the small-p proles say. It certainly doesn't inconvenience them, it isn't going to make them responsible to us, and it sure isn't going to make them honor the Constitution.

If we step out of our queue too far, if anything we do actually inconveniences Them, They'll certainly shut us up, but by then it won't matter what the dictionary says, because They'll control the language like They already control everything else.

Do They really care who marches in the street? So what if we shut down one, or five, or a dozen Walmart stores? There's a thousand stores unaffected and the Board just writes it off as a loss and deducts it from what little They pay in taxes to make up the loss.

They let us vent all we want, because it never changes anything. If we clamor too loudly over the slaughter of minorities, They empanel a Grand Jury that They control and a murder gets declared Heroism.

HEY, DICTIONARY-BACKED DENIERS! Wake-up, a quisling quibble doesn't change reality, and reality is They can snatch up anyone of us, any time They want and the Patriot Act makes it legal for Them, the Patriots, to get away with it.



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Response to Feral Child (Reply #167)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 12:47 PM

170. I disagree

While it may serve as an emotional outlet to label the US as a "police state," all that does is water down the meaning of the phrase. Saying that police states exist in different degrees is like saying there are behaviors that can be labeled slavery because they are somehow comparable to slavery or that the treatment of Gazans can be equated to the Holocaust because it is simply a matter of degree, not kind. But there is a reason to reserve the label Holocaust for a singular event. There is a reason to reserve the label Apartheid for the specific treatment of South African blacks. There is a reason to limit the term slavery to the actual ownership of human beings. And there is a reason to limit the term police state to uniquely repressive regimes like the old Soviet Union, like North Korea, like Nazi Germany. To broadent the term is to create a false equivaency that diminishes the horror of those regimes and exagerrates the very real problems in this country.

Does this country violate the rights of its citizens? Yes. Always has. Does it treat its citizens unequally? Yes. It always has. Does it give police too much leeway in using deadly force? Yes. Always has. Does that mean the US has always been a "Police State"? No, although there were times and places in our history (Jim Crow south) where it essentially was a police state for a significant portion of the citizenry. But to equate what is going on today, as bad as it is, with the Jim Crow south is, again, a false equivalency that diminishes the horrors that African Americans faced in the South under Jim Crow laws.

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Response to onenote (Reply #170)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 03:57 PM

172. You're entitled.

Clearly, some things stand out above all others. The Holocaust was a thing of it's own.

"Police State", on the other hand is certainly a matter of degrees. Just because what we're experiencing isn't to the level of notoriously evil regimes doesn't make it alright. The term should be graduated, because it's certainly prophetic.

Do you really think things will get better? My personal perception is that we've gone beyond the point where a mere change of attitude or political whim is going swing things back to a state of "more liberal" rather than "more conservative", "more leftish" rather than "more rightish".

Sure, They've given us token advances, Legalization in some states, DeCrim in others. Legal Marriage in some states, partner-rights in others. They even let us "demonstrate" without loosing the dogs. As long as we behave.

Let us demand too much, though and see how quickly Their "Patriot Act" gets wholesale enforcement.

They run things exactly the way They want because we're grateful for our "Freedom", but you had better believe that will be taken away as soon as we start demanding equality.

They're cops are KILLING people. Sure, not us. Just those other guys. Except there really isn't any difference between us and the other guys. Not in actuality, and not in Their minds. We're all chattel. They're discriminate killing is so we get used to it, so we all know that it's Their right to do so. So we get used to it and accept it. Accept our powerlessness and futility.



Again, label it as you wish, onenote. Until...

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Response to Feral Child (Reply #172)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 06:04 PM

180. Do I think things will get better? Yes.

Why wouldn't I. You may not realize it or want to admit it, but things are better today than they were in the not too distant past. They got better then, have backslid somewhat, but there's no reason to think they won't improve.

How can I say things are better today? Do you think cops didn't kill African Americans in the past or look the other way? Well, consider that during the first ten years of my father's lifetime, almost 500 African American were lynched. Police brutality against African Americans? Sadly it was as common as the sunrise in the Jim Crow south of my lifetime. Federal efforts to step in where the state and local governments would not were of middling effect -- convictions were rarely obtained. After the Feds indicted 18 individuals in the murder of Goodman, Chaney and Schwermer in 1964, only seven convictions were obtained, the longest sentence served was 6 years and the local sheriff was one of those acquitted.

Consider that until the Voting Rights Act of 1965 passed -- during my lifetime -- registration of African Americans to vote in southern states was miniscule. Within three years of the law's enactment, registration was over 50 percent and the number of African American elected officials increased from single digits to well over 150. Are there efforts underway to roll back this progress? Yes, and they should be opposed tooth and nail and I do think, in time, the pendulum will swing back.

And consider that life in these United States, while far from perfect and getting less so in some quarters every day, is better for women, for gays, and for a variety of other groups who have been discriminated against, harassed and sometimes killed simply for being who they are.

So again, I absolutely believe that there are trends in this country that need to be reversed; I also absolutely believe that they will be. And I believe that saying that we have become a police state diminishes the horrors that African Americans and other groups have been subjected to in the history of this nation and diminishes the progress made over the course of the nation's history, current setbacks notwithstanding.




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Response to onenote (Reply #180)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 06:23 PM

182. I hope your assessment is correct.

I think we'll continue to disagree, but thank you for keeping this on a civil level. I've enjoyed the discussion.

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Response to Feral Child (Reply #182)

Mon Dec 29, 2014, 06:29 PM

185. And thank you as well. 2014 sucked, but I have to hope 2015 will start to turn things around

It won't happen overnight, but I think it will happen.

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Response to onenote (Reply #180)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 03:48 PM

199. Are you referring the Voting Rights Act

 

that the Scalia 5 are now invalidating? That states are chipping away at with voter ID laws?

I really wish things were getting better, but for every step forward in one area, say gay rights, I see three steps back in other areas, like civil rights, domestic spying, war crimes, etc.

I hope you're right, but I am very pessimistic about the possibility.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #199)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 05:26 PM

205. Yes.

And my post specifically acknowledged that there are "efforts underway to roll back" the progress enabled by the Voting Rights Act and that those efforts "should be opposed tooth and nail."

Even with the efforts to weaken the effectiveness of the Voting Rights Act, the genie is out of the bottle and it will never be as bad as it was before the Voting Rights Act. More likely, as I indicated I believe, the pendulum will swing back and the Act will strengthened again. Maybe not tomorrow, but sooner than you seem to think.

I don't see things changing in a one step forward, three steps backwards fashion. Its more like a couple of steps forward, a step back, and then a couple of steps forward again. Even with the backwards steps of the past few years, things are better for African Americans, gays, women, Latinos then they were at an earlier stage of my lifetime.

Domestic spying, war crimes? Yes there has been backwards movement. But I can already see the pendulum shifting in these areas. (But if you think that any President at any time of any party is ever going to be charged with war crimes, you are dreaming).

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Response to onenote (Reply #205)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 06:33 PM

207. Again, I hope you are right

 

And I don't mind being wrong. I Am just not feelings very hopeful.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 03:20 PM

198. We imprison more people, per capita, than North Korea

Although I'm sure, or at least hope, that we execute fewer, too.

On edit: NK publicly executed 50 people last year, while we officially executed 34 in private.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 03:55 PM

200. There's no such thing as a "de facto" police state.

If we lived in a police state, you wouldn't even know the CIA had broken into Senate computers.

And the police wouldn't have to be publicly having a tantrum about the mayor if they could do anything about him.

Was America a police state during the decades where J. Edgar Hoover ruled federal law enforcement with absolute impunity?

These institutions are out of control, but that doesn't mean WE are in THEIR control.

We are in a situation of instability. A police state is one possible outcome.

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Response to True Blue Door (Reply #200)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 04:12 PM

203. By the time we meet your criteria

 

Won't it be kind of late?

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #203)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 04:17 PM

204. There haven't been many times in US history when the CIA was under control.

Maybe in the few years between the Church Committee and the Reagan administration.

The question is not "Are we a police state?" but "How do we move in the right direction?"

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 08:31 PM

213. Why the need to call the US a police state?

It is nowhere near one. Do you feel like if it's not a police state, you can't complain? Of course you can. There can be a lot wrong and a lot that needs to be improved without having to exaggerate so much.

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Response to treestar (Reply #213)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:50 PM

215. Yeah, torture is legal,

 

I don't know why anyone should get upset. It just s little torture and its people we don't know, so where is the harm?

I apologize.

America, fuck yeah!

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Reply #215)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 09:59 PM

217. But that's still not a police state.

Why do you feel, that to condemn the torture that the US engaged in after 911, the US has to be a "police state?"

In fact in a police state you could not speak up and criticize the torture without severe repercussions. Yet you can freely do so.

Do you think it packs no punch, no one will care at all, unless the torturing state is a "police state?"

And now it appears that torture is your criteria for a police state. That makes many other countries police states also.

The US is not a police state. It doesn't have to be in order to condemn it for torture during the Bush Administration.



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Response to treestar (Reply #217)

Tue Dec 30, 2014, 11:08 PM

218. I have listed all the ways

 

the US meets the criteria for a police state. Some people refuse to accept the evidence as presented and by the time all of their boxes are checked, it will be far, far too late.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 12:04 AM

221. I haven't doubted since the days of my youth. Getting thrown in jail

for doing nothing three times had a way of making me think I was living in a police state.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 08:13 AM

231. As you loudly advocate to bust a large prominent union. Got it. Nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #231)

Wed Dec 31, 2014, 06:49 PM

239. Oh, since it is a union, I must

 

simply overlook all of its crimes.

Gotcha.

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Response to Kelvin Mace (Original post)

Fri Jan 2, 2015, 07:22 AM

251. Believe you? What are you, a prophet?

 

What a weird framing, like you were the voice in the wilderness?

Charlie Pierce in the current Esquire Mag says it much more elegantly.

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