I shouldn't need to carry a passport to visit Arizona and Alabama (re: Immigration laws)

[CreekDog]

I'm a US Citizen. I have a legal Driver's License.

When I travel within this country, since the constitution says I'm innocent until proven guilty, I don't think I should have to prove I am a citizen, nor prove that I am here legally.

My license, and many of yours, was granted without any requirement to show proof of legal residence in the United States. Like many of you, I didn't make the laws that allowed that, I broke no laws that require something else.

Not that I'm very worried that I will be stopped and asked to prove my legal residence in Arizona or Alabama, and only the former do I visit frequently, but technically by reading of the law, because my state didn't require proof of legal residence, my license is not proof of legal residence. And some states STILL don't require it, so those licenses also aren't proof.

The Arizona law says you or I are "presumed NOT to be an alien IF...":

A PERSON IS PRESUMED TO NOT BE AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES IF THE PERSON PROVIDES TO THE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR AGENCY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING:

1. A VALID ARIZONA DRIVER LICENSE. 2. A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE. 3. A VALID TRIBAL ENROLLMENT CARD OR OTHER FORM OF TRIBAL

IDENTIFICATION. 4. IF THE ENTITY REQUIRES PROOF OF LEGAL PRESENCE IN THE UNITED STATES

BEFORE ISSUANCE, ANY VALID UNITED STATES FEDERAL, STATE OR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ISSUED IDENTIFICATION.

http://senatebill1070.com/arizona-senate-bill-1070/full-text-of-arizona-senate-bill-1070/

[dkf]

1. My state is requiring a birth certificate to renew our drivers license.

I wonder if we are the only ones.

[Meiko]

2. Wow

I haven't heard that one before. I know in Arizona you have to show certain forms for initial issuance but renewal is pretty easy.

[tosh]

3. Are you in Florida?

I am and we do.

[dkf]

4. Hawaii...State to Implement New Hawaii Driver License Requirements Beginning Monday, March 5

02/29/12 - Beginning Monday, March 5, 2012 all individuals renewing or applying for a new Hawaii driver's license or learner's permit will be required to show proof of legal presence in the United States. Documentation is required to establish, (1) legal name, (2) date of birth, (3) social security number, and (4) legal presence. A full list of all potential documents, new requirements and frequently asked questions can be found at hawaii.gov/dot.

On March 5, 2012, legal presence requrements will take effect in Hawaii. A full list of all potential documents, new requirements and frequently asked questions can be found at hawaii.gov/dot.
HONOLULU – New requirements for individuals who want to renew, reinstate and apply for a Hawaii state driver’s license or learner’s permits will take effect on Monday, March 5, 2012. Individuals will have to provide proof of their legal name, birth date, Social Security Number and legal presence in the United States at all county Motor Vehicle, Licensing and Permits Division offices.
 
The following are examples of documents that will prove everything but a Social Security Number:
An original or certified copy of a birth certificate filed with a state Department of Health or equivalent agency in the individual’s state of birth
A valid, un-expired U.S. passport
A valid, un-expired permanent resident card issued by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), Form I-551
A certificate of naturalization issued by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), Form N-550
 A certificate of citizenship issued by the DHS, Form N-560
A valid foreign passport with Visa and Form I-94, issued by Customs and Border Protection, DHS
The following are examples of the documents that will provide proof of an individual’s Social Security Number:
 
A valid social security card
A Medicare ID card (Suffix A, M, T and TA only – indicates Social Security Number for the person named on the card)
Wage and Tax Statement Form W-2 or 1099R, provided the Social Security Number is printed on the document, original or certified copy
SSA-1099 form, from a previous year, original or certified copy
 
Additional requirements may apply. For instance, married women who have changed their last names must also provide a valid or certified copy of their marriage licenses.
 
A full list of all potential documents, new requirements and frequently asked questions can be found at hawaii.gov/dot. Links to the site are also available on all four county websites.

http://hawaii.gov/dot/news/state-to-implement-new-hawaiidriver-license-requirements-beginning-monday-march-5

[CreekDog]

8. do they teach that we have 50 states when you go to school in Hawaii?

i thought so.

were you sick that day?

[dkf]

13. California has the same requirement.

 
V C Section 12801.5 Verification of Citizenship or Legal Residence

Verification of Citizenship or Legal Residence

12801.5.  (a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the department shall require an applicant for an original driver's license or identification card to submit satisfactory proof that the applicant's presence in the United States is authorized under federal law.

(b) The department shall not issue an original driver's license or identification card to a person who does not submit satisfactory proof that the applicant's presence in the United States is authorized under federal law.

(c) The department shall adopt regulations to carry out the purposes of this section, including procedures for, but not limited to, (1) verifying that the applicant's presence in the United States is authorized under federal law, (2) issuance of a temporary license pending verification of the applicant's status, and (3) appeal hearings from a denial of a license, temporary license , or identification card .

(d) On January 10 of each year , the department shall submit a supplemental budget report to the Governor and the Legislature detailing the costs of verifying the citizenship or legal residency of applicants for driver's licenses and identification cards, in order for the state to request reimbursement from the federal government.

(e) Notwithstanding Section 40300 or any other provision of law, a peace officer may not detain or arrest a person solely on the belief that the person is an unlicensed driver, unless the officer has reasonable cause to believe the person driving is under the age of 16 years.

(f) The inability to obtain a driver's license pursuant to this section does not abrogate or diminish in any respect the legal requirement of every driver in this state to obey the motor vehicle laws of this state, including laws with respect to licensing, motor vehicle registration, and financial responsibility.

Amended Sec. 5, Ch. 1, Stats. 3rd Ex. Sess. 2003. Effective December 4, 2003. Operative January 1, 2004. Supersedes Sec. 5, Ch. 326.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d06/vc12801_5.htm

[CreekDog]

14. you aren't listening

bye

[Cali_Democrat]

15. Way to miss the point

So what do you think of Arizona's immigration law? My hunch is that, deep down, you support it.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[CreekDog]

19. dkf supports the Arizona Immigration law, regardless of what she's told it says

this has been consistent here at DU for a few years.

she will post support of the law when it comes up and she will post red herring points when the law is criticized.

so i point out that some states' driver's licenses are no good under the Arizona law, so she names 2 states where they would be valid (but only maybe, because in California, my license didn't require a birth certificate and never has since I got it).

so i point out that not all licenses are valid in Arizona (and you could go to jail if yours isn't --this is not A TRIVIAL matter)...so instead of saying, "wow, I support the law, but that part of it is messed up..."...no, she is silent.

and the law doesn't allow you to use your birth certificate to prove you're a citizen if your driver's license does not!

that's how fucked up the law is.

but will she oppose it? no way, not in a million years. does she think innocent people need to be jailed and mistreated to fight illegal immigration? yes, because that's what the law does and she's been in the middle of discussions where that very thing was said.

she just doesn't care. she wants that Arizona law and she doesn't care what's in it, she'll defend it from here until the end of time.

[tosh]

10. That is very much like ours.

Here, it started Jan 1, 2010.

[CreekDog]

20. I'm in California. I have never had to show a birth certificate for my renewals

nor did I when I first got my license.

neither did friends my age who got their licenses during the same time period.

if my license is accepted in Arizona as proof of my legal residence, it is a loophole that does it because California NOW requires this of NEW licensees, not of existing ones.

and if someone is from New Mexico and is not required to show proof of legal residence at all, or ever, to get their licenses, then those licenses aren't valid and the person can be arrested while they check with immigration.

of course, if the person isn't an immigrant, US Immigration and Naturalization service ain't going to know sh*t about that person.

and if that person pulls out their birth certificate, then that won't prove anything either because they didn't have to show any proof of legal residence *before* the state issued the certificate.

[CreekDog]

7. what if you dont' have a driver's license?

you can be arrested and held in Arizona --forever.

[Meiko]

24. No

Like most states if you are pulled over and asked for a drivers license and you tell the cops you don't have one they will then ask for another form of ID. If you can't prove who you are you can be detained until positive ID is made. People without a DL or ID will often give a false name, people lie to cops all the time. If you get hauled into the station you will be printed and a positive ID made. If you are here illegally you will be turned over to the border patrol. If you have committed other crimes you will be processed accordingly.

Nobody is being held --forever because they didn't have a DL. If you are stopped and let's say, left your wallet at home but the cops are able to ID you, you will probably be cited and released. If you are a Mexican national it would be a very good idea to have some sort of ID with you, passport, Mexican DL or ID card, something. If you can't prove who you are you will be detained. It would be the same thing when I go to Mexico. I always carry plenty of ID in case I am pulled over by Mexican authorities. It's common sense.

[CreekDog]

25. No, you are not reading the Arizona law, which deals with the situation specifically

you are saying what would happen where the Arizona law doesn't exist.

i'm talking about where it does.

and i'm talking about even if you aren't a driver and aren't driving.

do you realize that even your own birth certificate is not enough under the law to allow Arizona to release you from custody unless the US Government can verify that you are here legally --and what if you aren't in that database because you don't have a driver's license and don't have a passport? then they won't be able to identify you and meet the conditions of release that the law imposes.

again, you are uninformed about the law and are posting what common sense tells you, but this law is not common sense.

try again and answer next time based on the law.

[Meiko]

29. Good advice Thanks

I will go in and re-read the law, I have myself confused.

[NutmegYankee]

26. You cannot be arrested for no ID

If I decide to take a walk with no wallet and a cop stops me, I only need to identify my name and address. It is not a crime to not carry papers in the US.

[Meiko]

30. I was referring to driving

I apologize if I was unclear. You are correct, you don't have to carry "papers" You only have to correctly identify yourself to LE.

[CreekDog]

33. not under the Arizona law --you must provide papers or the US Gov't verify that you're a citizen

but as Justice Sotomayor pointed out ysterday, the US Gov't doesn't maintain such information on all citizens (for example, only a small percentage of American citizens hold passports).

and because of the way the law is written, birth certificate cannot verify one's citizenship if there is no driver's license or the driver's license is from a state which doesn't require proof of residency to issue.

the birth certificate is problematic because the law says that for a document to verify that one is legally present, that the issuer of the birth certificate must have proof of legal residency prior to issuing the document.

so a birth certificate, without a document verifying that the person is here legally --is not valid under the Arizona law.

in theory, one could be held in an Arizona jail indefinitely.

[tabbycat31]

9. I needed mine to transfer my license

But you had to have 6 points of ID (an out of state license was only worth 1 point).

[Meiko]

5. Just bring your gun

it will even out.

[Elwood P Dowd]

6. The law is causing massive problems here in Alabama.

Farmers have lost millions of dollars in crops because there is no one to gather them. Foreign executives for the Mercedes factory have been mistakenly arrested and thrown in jail. A couple of executives for some of the Korean companies have been thrown in the poky. Auburn University, a land grant university with 25,000 students, has seen a couple of their foreign students wrongfully arrested. Since they have over 1,000 foreign students from about 100 different countries, this is not exactly helping them recruit outstanding foreign applicants.

There has been so many complaints, that the idiot repukes are now rewriting that crappy legislation. It's been a total embarrassment for a state trying to attract foreign investment.

[mitchtv]

17. ha! they've arrested executives from BMW and a Japanese car exec too

in either AL or GA.

[dixiegrrrrl]

27. speaking of stupid...

I moved back to Ala. 7 years ago, with Mr. dixie, who was from anotehr state, he had never lived here before.
So, we go to get our Ala. driver's licenses.
DVM here ( very small town) tells me that since I have had an Alabama license in the past,
no problem, they give me another one, instantly, right then and there.
Mr. Dixie, HE has to get a copy of his birth certificate before he can have a license, despite having a license from another state.
The copy comes in the mail, he takes it to the courthouse, and gets a license..no test, nothing.

I did not have to show any proof of residency, of citizenship, no SS#, nada, simply because I had a license here years back, way before the "papers pls" laws were passed, therefore could not possibly be a terrorist, I guess.

[rustydog]

11. My bet is in Arizona, if you re white, NO COP will ask for your papers

Racist, backward, bigoted, hateful fools.

[Meiko]

31. Everytime I have been stopped I am asked these things.

I need to see your DL, I need to see your registration and proof of insurance...oh yea, are there any guns in the car. I guess that would be asking for my papers.

[CTyankee]

12. Luckily, I have no need to drive there, so I will not have to worry about these laws.

I know it is a pretty area of the country and I feel bad for the people who depend on their tourism but I am seriously deterred from ever spending my money in that state. Please excuse me from going there and doing anything. I am so turned off.

[mmonk]

16. You can always not visit nor drive through.

[mitchtv]

18. good idea

I won't be in these states

[CreekDog]

21. do you recommend boycotting Arizona?

are you recommending not going to places that the constitution does not apply?

[mmonk]

22. I would but my state had our legislature taken over by Republicans in 2010.

So for the first time in a long time, I can't say anything unless I throw my state into the mix as well.

[SoCalDem]

23. My daughter in law's Mom teaches at a nearby school, and they canceled a trip to AZ

for a dance festival. Most of the kids (6th graders) are Hispanic, and their parents were too worried about them to go to AZ. And probably more than a few parents who wanted to go with, may not have had enough paperwork to feel safe

[Gormy Cuss]

28. "A VALID ARIZONA NONOPERATING IDENTIFICATION LICENSE"?

A state ID is called a nonoperating LICENSE in AZ? That's nuts.

[pampango]

32. As a loyal American you should do whatever republican state legislators and governors tell you to do

in order to protect us all from the "bad guys".

None of these state immigration laws (thank you, ALEC) has gotten through a single Democratic-majority state legislative body or, of course, a Democratic governor.

[NYC_SKP]

34. any valid state or local gov issued id. OBTW, wtf with your crazy ass link???

http://senatebill1070.com/arizona-senate-bill-1070/full-text-of-arizona-senate-bill-1070/


安心してショッピング枠でクレジットカード現金化をしよう

ショッピング枠を使ってのクレジットカード現金化は心配ない

[CreekDog]

35. what's the matter with you? i posted this two years ago.

and second, read the damned OP. my license was granted without ever having to prove my citizenship, EVER. it's not proof.

what's the matter with you?