Let's be clear: The Obama Crusades controversy is over whether it's okay to hate Muslims

[kpete]

At Vox Max Fisher is actively alarmed over the criticism the president is getting for arguing in his National Prayer Breakfast speech that it’s not okay to pretend Muslims are distinct from any other set of believers (or unbelievers) in their proclivity towards violence. Yet as he points out, many of Obama’s defenders have gone for the capillaries, contending over the details of Obama’s points about the history of Christianity or the counter-points of his critics. It is, says Fisher, actually pretty simple:

To be crystal clear: this is not a fight over the fine-grain imperfections of Obama’s historical analogy or over the implications for US foreign policy. It is a fight over whether it’s okay to hate Muslims, to apply sweeping and negative stereotypes to the one-fifth of humanity that follows a particular religion. A number of Americans, it seems, are clinging desperately to their anti-Muslim bigotry and are furious at Obama for trying to take that away from them.

MORE: http://www.vox.com/2015/2/7/7995803/obama-crusades


There’s something else going on, as I have been at pains to point out: those attacking Obama also want to define liberals right out of Christianity. But they do so by way of a most ironic litmus test:

to love Jesus, you have to hate some of his children.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_02/simple_bigotry054112.php

[snooper2]

1. nobody is hating on Muslims, we just hate fucking fundies

But But Christians have fundies too Snooper!



Yeah, but as a percentage they never follow through with their crazy if you do a true comparison. Number of murders over past 100 years 80-1 maybe?

[cpwm17]

3. In the big picture, Muslims are less inclined towards violence than average.

With a selective memory and a biased look at current events many people claim they are more violent. But we are the nation that has a very bad record of committing terrible violence against Muslims, far more than the violence they have committed against us. That is consistent with recent history throughout the Western and Muslim World.

Barrack Obama is right.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/30/7951309/islam-violence

Whenever the subject of Islamist terrorism comes up, the national conversation almost always circles back to a somewhat bigoted question: are Muslims more violent than other kinds of people because of their religion?

What these conversations usually lack is data; that is, evidence that Muslim societies are actually more violent than other ones. And it turns out, according to UC-Berkeley Professor M. Steven Fish, that judging by murder rates, people in Muslim-majority countries actually tend to be significantly less violent (bolding is mine):

Predominantly, Muslim countries average 2.4 murders per annum per 100,000 people, compared to 7.5 in non-Muslim countries. The percentage of the society that is made up of Muslims is an extraordinarily good predictor of a country's murder rate. More authoritarianism in Muslim countries does not account for the difference. I have found that controlling for political regime in statistical analysis does not change the findings. More Muslims, less homicide.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/despite-wingnut-freakout-obama-right-christian-violence-just-bad-muslim-violence

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30 Worst Atrocities of the 20th Century
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[JonLP24]

7. Also Wahabbism

the sect responsible for Arabian Peninsula dictatorships & Al-Qaeda brand terror groups is an idealogy so far off from traditional Islamic practices such as opposing the Hajj. Saudi Arabia, I guess, saw that they couldn't not allow it but they certainly regulate. Cap the visitors, how to pray, etc.

And it came from the 18th Century so as far as Islam is concerned, it is fairly new so it isn't something long term (though it certainly appears that way with their whole 1st Century methods.

[ND-Dem]

16. I can't find that pie chart or that blurb titled "Christian violence is the 20th century" at any of

the links you give. in fact, matthew white, the source of the "30 worst atrocities" chart, says the opposite:

That's why I was so startled to discover that there is absolutely no pattern to the chart. If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm


What's the source for the mash-up you present?

[cpwm17]

17. It's in the second link I posted

http://www.alternet.org/belief/despite-wingnut-freakout-obama-right-christian-violence-just-bad-muslim-violence

My post was about the fact that Muslims are not more violent than the rest of us. I wasn't really picking on Christians in particular. I included three different links which confused another poster.

Even in the third link which you linked to, considering that they are a major proportion of the World population, Muslims commit fewer major atrocities than other groups.

[ND-Dem]

18. OK: that pie chart has nothing to do with that list of deaths that follows it in your post. In fact

that pie chart has no supporting data presented. But posting them in cross proximity, you give the false impression that the data in the second chart supports the pie chart.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Nobody? Are you sure?

What about those lunatics who were yelling abuse at American Muslim kids who were singing the national anthem? What about that Teabag politician who demanded Muslims who visited her office had to swear an oath of allegiance to the US alongside an Israeli flag? What about those anti-Muslim ads that are on public buses on one of America's major cities courtesy of Pamela Geller? Or do you think they're just hating on fundies or something?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

2. Does that mean

those insisting on defending the Crusades comment are demanding it be OK to hate Christians?

[Fred Sanders]

4. 'Those' have watched the entire wonderful Obama speech and not distorted the words or the meaning.

...and these folks have not formed their opinions on cut off headlines or sentences or other people's opinions.

[outside]

5. Wow.

He uses 40 million killed in China's revolution and 20 million under Stalin's regime as killed under Christian leaders.

[ND-Dem]

12. he who?

[outside]

14. The guy who make the chart.

Matthew White. Look at his chart on post #3.

[ND-Dem]

15. i can't see any where that clarl claims his data is christains v. muslims. rather the opposite.

That's why I was so startled to discover that there is absolutely no pattern to the chart. If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries; industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black, yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies.

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm


'Christians v. muslims' seems to be the poster's addition. but the poster of the chart isn't the op kpete, who you addressed your original comments to, but cpwm17

[MisterP]

6. heck, even President Pee Pants said we're not at war with all Islam

so the fruitloops are saying Dubya's too soft

[CJCRANE]

8. We created the muslim fundie groups to fight the commies

and anyone else we don't like.

Then Bushco's antics increased these groups fivefold in the last few years.

Anyone remember when socialism and commnunism were the big bads in the world?

It's like living in a land of amnesiacs.

[ND-Dem]

10. +100

[cpwm17]

13. It's no coincidence that HW Bush attacked Iraq as the Cold War ended.

He needed a new enemy to replace the commies. He was very successful.

[ND-Dem]

11. I'm lost as to our middle east policy anymore. we're not supposed to hate muslims, yet

we're basically at war with a lot of muslim sects. a war that ordinary people, bigoted or not, had nothing to do with starting. that's on our leaders. so if ordinary americans are bigoted against people they don't even know, it has something to do with our war.