So to be clear: Assassinations in Russia, obviously done by the powerful. Those here, "lone nuts."

[villager]

Those are the immediate assumptions, in both cases, yes? (Usually by the same folks, as it turns out).

[geek tragedy]

1. Four guys who evade security near red square are not lone nuts. Nt

[villager]

3. Yes, profound and violent political change in America is merely "coincidental"

It just happens to benefit the powerful, as well.

[geek tragedy]

4. Lol. Leave Putin aloooooone. nt

[villager]

71. Lol. American exceptionalism. nt

[former9thward]

53. But here in the U.S. a "lone nut"

undergoes facial reconstruction surgery a month before he kills the nation's top civil rights leader. And then despite a nation-wide manhunt is able to get to Canada, hide out there, obtain an official Canadian passport and eventually make his way to the UK. But he is labeled a "lone nut".

[NYC_SKP]

2. Agenda: There we should hate their government, here we should fear the individual, trust government.

~ Here we should probably give up some rights to privacy and due process because terrorism. ~


.

[BayouBengal07]

5. I don't think political opposition is murdered regularly around here.

Investigative journalists aren't shot and poisoned with polonium, either.

[WDIM]

9. maybe that is because there is no real political opposition.

Beyond wedge issues what do they really disagree on?

[geek tragedy]

11. Nope. Sorry. The US is not the fascist regime

Russia is. There are plenty of differences between Democrats and Republicans. But even Republicans are superior to the gangster plutocrats and fascists ruling Russia now.

If you think there is no difference between Democrats and Republicans, you really do not belong on this site.

[WDIM]

13. So you really dont believe

That the US is an oligarchy ruled by social elites?

How can that really be denied.

[geek tragedy]

14. Compare this week's net neutrality decision

with Putin's Russia.

[WDIM]

21. Im definately am not trying to defend Russia.

Im no fan of putin. I think he is very dangerous with the arsenol he has at his disposal.

I was just merely trying to point out political opposition is slight on things like free trade, trickle down, the fed, tax policy, military usage, drug policy, i mean yeah there are slight differences and it is the slight differences that makes me go democrat.

But in the end id say democratic leaders lean more conservative and hawkish then id like them to be. But that is because they have to vote for their sponsers and money wins elections and power corrupts.

But the media is owned by a chosen few the huge banks owned by a few oil companies utility companies money runs things in this country and everybody else is locked out. We have to play the game that is rigged to oneside. Its like a casino some get lucky and strike it rich but most go home broke at the end of the day.

And political assassinations do happen here. There have been many a journalist die a mysterous death. But the media is owned by a very wealthy few anyways.

But it could be worse. Atleast we do have the resemblence of a representative republic. And if enough people do get together we can make a change or atleast start a debate.

[Ichingcarpenter]

37. I agree with your views on Putin plus he was X KGB

However lets look at the game theory of this incident analytically.


Now the KGB and the CIA and other intelligence agencies did covert assassinations over the years be it through plane crashes, car crashes, poison,' suicide' or other nefarious means. Overt assassinations draws too much attention to the perps unless they use a useful idiot or a Manchurian candidate for a black ops operation

Now who benefits from this overt assassination?
Putin?
Why do a covert assassination? Unless he used 4 useful idiots to get a small gain over minor opponent and reap world wide condemnation.

Now who else benefits from this overt assassination?
Ukraine?
Well it does put Putin in even a more worse light for world opinion. But if caught as their deed that's a big risk.

The Russian oligarchs? Some are for Putin some are not.

I await more data until I will

[mother earth]

109. Well said. nt

[Aerows]

15. GT, I agree with you on many things

but when it comes to fascism, all I have to do is look up the actual definition of the word to dispute that the US doesn't already have strong elements of fascism.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism

As a bonus, take the full article into consideration:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[geek tragedy]

16. The US is not a fascist state.

It is a very flawed society and system, but nowhere near the thugocracy ruling Russia.

[Aerows]

17. I agree we are not the thugocracy ruling Russia

The difference between you and I is that I end that sentence with YET You don't have to be the one crashing into the bottom of the hill to realize when you are going way too fast in your own wagon.

[geek tragedy]

18. We can never take what we have for granted.

There are elements in our society who would take us in Russia's direction. Eternal vigilance is required.

[Aerows]

19. That will never

and is never just a mere glib statement for me.

"We can never take what we have for granted"

I am going to go on being critical when our government violates the Constitution, no matter how politically expedient it is to just support and shut up. I don't want us to head into that abyss, and I'm going to point out when the wagon is going too fast down the hill toward it.

It's not my nature.

I hope you can appreciate that.

[rhett o rick]

67. I think that's the point many are trying to make here. Those that would benefit from

a corptocracy are pushing us in that direction. Citizens United was a huge step for those seeking corporate control. The TPP will be another big step. How about controlling the voting machines? We've seen where that's been done and very little being done to stop it. Pres Obama seems powerless to control the NSA/CIA Deep State machine. Gen Clapper gives Congress the finger and they bow down. It looks like Corporate Thing 1 will be running against Corporate Thing 2 in 2016. How bad does it have to get before you recognize that the Corporatists want all our money?

[villager]

72. And the Deep State has been operating, steadily, since WWII, and our own era of assassinations

Last edited Sun Mar 1, 2015, 02:46 AM - Edit history (1)

...began in earnest during that timeframe.

It could all be "coincidence," of course, that the techniques we export were used over here to effect (unfortunate and debilitating) political change...

[Aerows]

83. No one

that respects our country, the people that make it our country, and the laws that make us Americans will agree and turn a blind eye to this.

It needs to be drug out in the sunlight, exposed for what it is, because this is NOT what our nation is about. Our nation is better than this.

[villager]

88. Swallowing, whole hog, the official 1%er explanations for the "coincidental" deaths of progressive

...leaders is, truly, a profoundly unpatriotic act.

[treestar]

92. What is the official 1% explanation?

We have a system that will investigate deaths. Are you claiming the justice systems of all 50 states AND the fed are under the control of some secret cabal? That'd be even worse than Russia.

[villager]

101. Are you claiming the powerful in this country never go outside the law?

Seriously?

[Aerows]

95. It is. n/t

[sabrina 1]

25. So lying to go to war where over one million people are murdered, isn't so bad, because, why?

Torturing people for not particular reason isn't so bad, when WE do it. Why? Does dying of torture hurt less when WE do it or something?

Crashing the world's economy, causing untold hardship and even death, on so many millions of human beings, isn't really that bad, when WE do it?

Droning innocent children in their own countries, that's okay when we do it. Why?

And Republicans are better than ANYONE, really? I'm struggling to figure out who some of those neocons and war criminals and Wall St. criminals are BETTER than??

If you think Republicans are okay, maybe it is you who doesn't belong here?

[EX500rider]

48. "And Republicans are better than ANYONE, really?"

Yes.
Better then Pol Pot.
Better them Mao.
Better then the SS.
Better then Idi Amin.
Etc...


Many of us have family members who are Republicans.

[sabrina 1]

51. Pol Pot, Pinochet and a whole host of the world's dictators, were our FRIENDS.

Still are, Karamov of Uzbekistan, the Bahrain dictatorship, Qatar, Saudi Arabia among others.

They do some of the dirty work, we call it 'proxy wars'.

As for 'worse than Republicans'? You made my point.

The Bush/Cheney slaughter in Iraq eg, which killed over one million people, not to mention the torture and maiming of untold numbers of human beings, men, women and children, apparently was 'less' evil than Pol Pot's war crimes, because well WE did it.

Thanks, I would prefer the opinion of the victims to that of the oppressors.

When Ronald Reagan died and this country went into a week long, or was it two, orgy of 'hero worship', someone did ask the victims of that 'dirty war' in Central America what they thought of America's hero worship of Reagan. Needless to say, they, still remembering the horrors inflicted on them and their loved ones, had an entirely different opinion.

I'm sure aggressors never see themselves as 'worse than' anyone. So you have to talk to the victims.

'We don't do body counts' - General Miller when asked how many Iraqis had died as a result of our Republican driven illegal invasion of that nation.

'Treat the Iraqis like dogs' - and we did, again, from a Republican.

Maybe it would be a good thing to compare the number of people murdered by other evil leaders to those murdered by our mostly nearly seven decade Republican driven invasions from Central and South America to the ME.

For whatever reason I can't think of a Republican who wasn't more than willing to kill and torture people in other nations. Except one, who found his conscience AFTER cheer leading the criminal Iraq Invasion.

[EX500rider]

70. Pol Pot, a committed Marxist was a friend of the US?? LOL!!!

January 1973, US announced the suspension of offensive action against North Vietnam. US troops pulled out.
The Khmer Rouge took Phnom Penh in April 1975.

Pol Pot:
His government forced urban dwellers to move to the countryside to work in collective farms and forced labour projects. The combined effects of executions, forced labour, malnutrition and poor medical care caused the deaths of approximately 25 percent of the Cambodian population.

For the Republicans to be on a level with him they would have to kill 75 million Americans. Not people in other countries during a war but their OWN citizens.

[sabrina 1]

85. Yes, Pol Pot. The US supported him 'by proxy' unless you don't believe Brzezinsky and Kissenger

Brzezinsky doesn't seem to see anything wrong with it either. I think it's pretty shocking, so I understand YOUR shocked reaction if you were unaware of it.

“I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him, but China could.” According to Brzezinski, the USA “winked, semi-publicly” at Chinese and Thai aid to the Khmer Rouge.

Elizabeth Becker, When the War Was Over, New York, Touchstone, 1986, p. 440.

You might also read Grant Evans and Kelvin Rowley's Red Brotherhood at War: Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos since 1975

And this transcript of Kissinger meeting with the Thai Foreign Minister, echoes Bzrezinski's willingness to support the Khmer Rouge 'thugs'. http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK-11-26-75.pdf

Kissinger: "You should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won't let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them."

Quite an eye-opener to read how casually they talk about 'the nice man who only killed 10, 000 human beings 'which is why they need food, if they had killed MORE they wouldn't need food etc etc.

Reading these documents you see how blase they are about killing, as if they were playing chess, talking about inanimate objects.

I suggest you do read all of it.

Kissenger even asked the Thai FM not to tell the Khmer Rouge that he had called them 'murderous thugs'.

Smedley Butler was right. What he was doing, he said, was fighting for corporations for an organization that was like a Global Mafia.


All our associations with some of the 20th Century's worst dictators were 'pragmatic'.

We do a lot 'by proxy' according to Hillary Clinton. Kissinger has advised her, she says, on Foreign Policies. I find that pretty shocking also, considering he is still wanted as a War Criminal.

And a little more on how we supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge:

Cambodia's Twisted Path to Justice

Twenty-four years ago, the Khmer Rouge army entered Phnom Penh, the capital of Cambodia. Thus began a genocidal regime which killed 1.7 million of 8 million Cambodians, before it was overthrown by Hanoi's troops in 1979. For the next twenty years, Pol Pot, one of the worst mass murders of the twentieth century, evaded justice. Last year he died in his sleep.

China, the United States, and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), all supported Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge in various ways. The Great Powers opposed attempts to bring the Khmer Rouge to justice. No country in the world could be found to file a case against them in the World Court. The Khmer Rouge held on to the Cambodian seat in the United Nations, representing their victims for another fifteen years even though they were openly accountable for their crimes. Rather, international aid poured into their coffers, abetting their war to retake power.

No one would prosecute them, Pol Pot was never brought to justice. We saved Pinochet also when he was indicted by his own people. The UK, our close ally, refused to extradite him.

I am really glad you asked. I expected your reaction as it was mine when I first learned of our aid to the Khmer Rouge. I thought we were the 'good guys', fighting 'communism'.

There is so much we do not know. THEY, the RULERS, see things very differently to the way ordinary people see them.

To them it's all a great big Global chess game, and murder is of little consequence to them.

Read the PDF document to get a small idea of what was going on behind the scenes while the public was been told something else entirely.




1.7 million were killed by the Khmer Rouge.

The US made no attempt, in fact blocked, efforts to get justice for those people. Along with all the other major governments. We had 'interests' in protecting them.

One million in Iraq by the US, maybe more, 'we don't do body counts'.

More in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, and who knows where else?

'We are an Empire now' according to Karl Rove. Another of our not-so-bad Republicans.

[Throd]

76. Pol Pot? Are you high?

We have been in bed with some very shady characters, but Pol Pot wasn't one of them.

[sabrina 1]

86. We supported him 'by proxy'. I know, it is a shocker. Both Bzrezinsky and Kissinger encouraged the

the Chinese to support the Khmer Rough, because 'we can't do it, but China can'. I have posted some links above, including a declassified PDF document which is a transcript of a meeting between Kissinger an the Thai Foreign Minister. In that transcript, which is well worth reading if you want to learn how casually they talk about 'killing'.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK-11-26-75.pdf

Go to page 8 to see Kissinger's remarks about 'improving relations' with Cambodia, who, he admits 'are murderous thugs, but we won't let that stand in our way'.

See my post here http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6294628 for more information on our support for Pol Pot.

And from Bzrezinsky: “I encouraged the Chinese to support Pol Pot. Pol Pot was an abomination. We could never support him, but China could.” According to Brzezinski, the USA “winked, semi-publicly” at Chinese and Thai aid to the Khmer Rouge.

Elizabeth Becker, When the War Was Over, New York, Touchstone, 1986, p. 440.

Proxy wars. Hillary talked about that too. Very proudly. No surprise since Kissinger has advised her on FP she says.


It was 'strategic'. Or so we are told.

Pol Pot was never brought to justice and died in his own bed, thanks to the refusal of the US and other major nations to allow him to be prosecuted. The Khmer Rouge was never held accountable, again protected at the UN, by the major Western nations.

Yes, it's shocking but it's true and Kissinger is an adviser on FP to Hillary Clinton.

He's also wanted for War crimes.

NOTHING surprises me anymore. You may feel differently, or try to justify it because it wasn't overt. But their own words tell the story and what are WE going to do about it?

[msanthrope]

84. Pol Pot? Care to cite that claim? nt

[sabrina 1]

87. I have cited the claim. Unless you don't believe Bzrezinsky and Kissenger. I cited the AA/Irish

alliance claim also, which you asked for.

I do not make claims I cannot cite. I notice that you ignored what you so authoritatively demanded re the historical AA/Irish alliance so I won't waste any more time here on this one. You can 'google' it or search this thread for my responses.

In fact I think it's time the entire country knew WHO we have supported and ARE supporting. Clearly there is a lot of ignorance of our government's lies and deceptions.

We, together with other 'allies' protected both Pol Pot and Pinochet from prosecution, both died in their beds. Denying the victims the right to the justice they so deserved. Shameful.

Anything else you want to know?

[msanthrope]

90. Your links prove that we didn't support Pol Pot. Kissinger's whispering

aside, you haven't provided a single bit of evidence that the US actually supported Pol Pot and gave him material assistance.

I understand why you are now claiming we "supported him by proxy."

[sabrina 1]

94. Didn't read the links did you? "China, the United States, and the ASEAN, all supported Pol Pot's

Khmer Rouge in various ways. The Great Powers opposed attempts to bring the Khmer Rouge to justice. No country in the world could be found to file a case against them in the World Court. The Khmer Rouge held on to the Cambodian seat in the United Nations, representing their victims for another fifteen years even though they were openly accountable for their crimes. Rather, international aid poured into their coffers, abetting their war to retake power.

Cambodia's Twisted Path to Justice

Shameful!

And here in this declassified document we get to read how Kissinger set up the support for Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge, (see page 8) using the Thai FM as a go-between. Kissinger in his own words:

Kissinger: "You should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won't let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them."

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB193/HAK-11-26-75.pdf

'We (the US) will be FRIENDS with them (the Khmer Rouge)!'

I always used to wonder how Pol Pot and Pinochet got away with their murderous, genocidal crimes.

It helps to have 'friends' in 'high places'.

Nixon and China. There was more to that relationship than met the eye it appears.

Kissinger the War Criminal. I doubt anything he did would be a surprise to any Democrat.

[msanthrope]

96. Again. ...your links claim UN aid. And Kissinger was supporting China's attempts

to align with Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia, as opposed to them aligning with North Vietnam. That's hardly support of Pol Pot's murderous regime.....note, no material support was offered.

[sabrina 1]

97. No, Kissinger WAS ORGANIZING the support for the Khmer Rouge. Didn't read the links AGAIN did you?

Just stop, this is well documented by now and WHY you are supporting that far right wing war criminal is beyond me frankly.

[msanthrope]

98. Oh....I read the links. You posted a pdf of Kissinger talking briefly about Cambodia....

about not objecting to China pursuing alliance with them.

[sabrina 1]

107. The US, China and ASEAN supported Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge for decades. That is a documented

fact despite your attempts to deny it. The US did by proxy. Not only did they support them, they kept them in power and used their status at the UN to block any efforts to remove their seat at the UN.

It was done, which Brzezinsky has explained, because the Khmer Rouge and the US had a mutual enemy, the Vietnamese.

I could, but won't waste any more time on someone who clearly is in denial, post the words of our leaders explaining WHY they supported the Khmer Rouge and protected Pol Pot so that rather than be brought to justice, that evil, mass murdering monster was allowed to die in his own bed.

Without that support, he would have spent the rest of his days in jail, or died at a much younger age.


We also supported and protected Pinochet.

Facts are facts, deny them all you want, but I believe those who were there and shamefully tried to explain away their support for such monsters. In our name.

[msanthrope]

108. I appreciate your walkback. You went from stating

we gave material support to Pol Pot to now, claiming Kissinger supported them "by proxy."

Okay...I suggest you look at Pinochet.....now there's a murderous thug Nixon got behind.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

50. I invite you to consider the definition of a "wedge issue".

I think your innuendo is tautological.

[jakeXT]

10. They drive German cars

Richard Clarke: Car Hacking Possible In Crash That Killed Michael Hastings

https://securityledger.com/2013/06/richard-clarke-car-hacking-possible-in-crash-that-killed-michael-hastings/

[rhett o rick]

24. How about JFK, RFK, MLK jr, Sen Wellstone, and Michael Hastings.

How about those that were silenced in other ways like Rep Conyers, Gov Spitzer, Gov Siegelman, and Rep Weiner. And how about whistle-blowers in jail or exile? The Obama Admin has been tougher on journalists than any former President.

It ain't as bad as Russia, but it is far from wonderland.

[sabrina 1]

27. Sssshhhh, I just learned that 'our' Republicans are okay, well, not so bad when you look around, or

something.

And how about Don Siegelman, who Rove, our Machiavelli, railroaded for political purposes.

We are BETTER, even our evil war criminals are BETTER than theirs!

So stop spoiling the party, rhett. When WE torture people to death it doesn't hurt as much as when they do it. Just remember that!

[grasswire]

30. they even have their own leaker now, did you hear?

And some on this board apparently think their leaker is better than our leaker(s).

[sabrina 1]

32. Well, you know the drill. When the neocons are ramping up for WAR, we hear things about the 'target'

that have zero to do with US, but are designed to get us really, really MAD.

Our media plays their part, round the clock telling us what to think. Anonymous sources, Military 'experts', soon we'll hear from Curveball again, probably with a Russian name this time. Horror stories have to come from someone who shares the same nationality as the targeted nation. Even if it is a drunk who is lying.

Some of the stuff I'm hearing re Russia reminds me of when Bush/Cheney hired the Rendon Group to 'sell the Iraq War'.

Their 'proxy war' Ukraine didn't work, Putin didn't bite and all that happened was a whole lot of people got killed and the Kiev coup government began to feel the anger of their own people.

So, what next? The war drums are beating that's for sure.

Russia is part of Obama's international team of countries who are working on a peaceful resolution with Iran.

THAT is enough to get Bibi to hatch his plot with Boehner to try to end any peaceful resolutions with Iran.

If the neocons would go that length to undermine the Coalition's years long talks with Iran, nothing they might do would surprise me.

A Third World War would probably thrill them.

And this time the 'left' appears to be on board!

[rhett o rick]

47. When we torture it's on the side of goodness. That's the difference.

[sabrina 1]

54. And our WMDs are only for 'humanitarian purposes'!

And Reagan was a HERO! His dirty war was for the benefit of all the victims.

Amazing isn't it, 'there are none so blind as those who will not see'.

[rhett o rick]

62. For some it's a defense mechanism. It's very important to believe that the side you've

chosen is the side of goodness. How many people have died or suffered at the hands of those on the side of goodness.

[hack89]

57. Wellstone and Hastings were not murders.

Wellstone had the misfortune to fly with a crappy pilot. Hasting's wife and family say it was an accident.

[rhett o rick]

63. Accidents that were very valuable to the Powers That Be. I don't believe it's a coincidence

that many top liberals have been killed, imprisoned, or otherwise neutralized. Sen Sanders has expressed serious concerns for the safety of himself and his family should he decide to run for president. The Powers That Be have enough resources and the technology is available to neutralize those that dare fight for freedom.

[Spider Jerusalem]

65. How about them, anyway?

JFK was killed by Lee Harvey Oswald. After Oswald went to Mexico City and spent time around Cubans where he learned of American assassination attempts against Castro. That was a case of what Malcolm X called "chickens coming home to roost". RFK (a supporter of Israel) was killed by a Palestinian nationalist. MLK was killed by a small-time convict and racist who tried to escape to Rhodesia. Wellstone died in a plane crash. And what about those others? Spitzer had a penchant for prostitutes most unbecoming in someone who trumpeted his "tough on crime" credentials in going after prostitution rings; Weiner couldn't help himself sending dick pics to girls on Twitter. It takes a mindset completely divorced from reality to see that as "conspiracy".

[rhett o rick]

66. Rationalization is the key to happiness. nm

[Art_from_Ark]

28. American political opposition was murdered in the '60s

JFK, RFK, Martin Luther King, Malcolm X. And that's not even counting the assassination attempt on George Wallace, who was running as a Democrat in the 1972 Democratic primary.

And, of course, the murders of Abraham Lincoln, James A. Garfield, and WIlliam McKinley were all politically motivated as well.

[ND-Dem]

39. and possibly walter reuther....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026280269

[grasswire]

59. andwhat about Cokie Roberts' father, the congressman

Forgot his name. Taken down in a plane crash.

[Art_from_Ark]

102. That was Hale Boggs

He and another Democratic politician were on a plane that disappeared en route from Anchorage to Juneau, Alaska, in 1972 and has never been found.

And then there was Jerry Litton, a rising star in the Democratic Party, who died in a mysterious plane crash in August 1976 just after winning the Missouri primary for US Senate.

Kind of funny (as in "strange&quot that Jerry Litton died in a plane crash just after winning the Missouri primary for US Senate, and Mel Carnahan (another Democrat) died in a plane crash just before the US Senate election in Missouri 24 years later.

And two years after Carnahan's accident, Democrat Paul Wellstone went down in a plane crash, just before the Minnesota US Senate election.

[grasswire]

103. and there's JFK Jr.

I believe he was murdered.

[zappaman]

104. Really?

Why?
How?
Who?

[grasswire]

105. don't know

I just think it's a high probability considering the growing threat his very existence meant for Republicans. I have nothing to base it on. I guess I should have said I "suspect", not "I believe."

[Art_from_Ark]

106. It's bound to raise a few suspicions

So many prominent Democrats have gone down in airplane accidents-- Boggs, Litton, Carnahan, Wellstone, JFK Jr...

Republicans generally have better luck in small planes, although John Tower (R-TX), who, as chairman of the Tower Commission, had been a vocal critic of the Reagan administration's role in Iran-contra, went down in a plane in Georgia, just a day after John Heinz (R-PA) met the same fate in Pennsylvania.

[Jamastiene]

43. Tell that to all the dead Democrats

who have been assassinated in the last 60 years or so. Oh, that's right. You can't. They were assassinated.

[villager]

78. "Regularly" or "often" may be the operative words. Since it clearly does happen.

And of course, whistleblowers are being charged, arrested, and jailed with alarming, and increasing, frequency.

[Karmadillo]

6. Please stop this unauthorized thinking. The media will tell you what to think and

we will loyally help to reinforce that message. Don't resist. You'll feel better marching in lockstep.

[Aerows]

12. Heaven forbid

anyone do unauthorized thinking. That should get you thrown in jail pre-emptively according to some on DU.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026283243#post153

Hell, that whole thread has examples of people that are eager to do that, not just one person.

It's frightening what people will cheer.

[MattSh]

33. It's from someone on my Ignore List.

Seems like I did the right thing!

[villager]

73. "Democrats" are already center/right. Now let's make an "Underground" tilt the same way.

n/t

[Fred Sanders]

7. Why are you thinking and voicing your thoughts on any issue independent of and before the media speaks?

Resistanceis futile and will be met with a blizzard of simplistic and personal insults.

[jakeXT]

8. Kerry thinks Oswald was influenced, maybe in Russia... but the CIA would never do it

John Kerry doesn't believe that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone when he shot President Kennedy as he says the government investigation didn't 'get to the bottom' of the assassination

Secretary of State John Kerry thinks that the shooter was influenced

Suggests it has something to do with the time Oswald spent in the Soviet Union and his connections to communist sympathizers

Does not support the 'grassy knoll' theory or the idea that the CIA was involved


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2492911/John-Kerry-doesnt-believe-Lee-Harvey-Oswald-acted-shot-President-Kennedy-says-government-investigation-didnt-the-assassination.html

[ND-Dem]

41. yeah, right. oswald the commie. they tried that one out in 1963 and it never did fly too well.

too many discrepancies in the storyline.

[Blue_Tires]

20. FWIW, Putin's people are already telling the Russian public that this is a false flag op

Sound familiar?

[BainsBane]

22. Yeah, it's a total coincidence Putin's opposition keeps being killed.

That and journalists who criticize him.

[Hekate]

58. All a coinkydink

Especially the journalists

[villager]

75. Absolutely agree that some patterns strain the definition of "coincidence"

Regardless of what the public is instructed to believe.

[awoke_in_2003]

23. If by assassinations you mean JFK, RFK...

MLK, and Malcolm X- I don't think they were done by lone nuts. Lone nuts may have pulled the trigger, but something bigger was pulling the strings.

[geek tragedy]

26. Malcolm was assassinated by rivals inside the nation of islam. nt

[JonLP24]

35. There are significant details omitted in that one statement

According to attorney Brian Glick in his book War at Home, the FBI used four main methods during COINTELPRO:

Infiltration: Agents and informers did not merely spy on political activists. Their main purpose was to discredit and disrupt. Their very presence served to undermine trust and scare off potential supporters. The FBI and police exploited this fear to smear genuine activists as agents.

Psychological warfare: The FBI and police used myriad "dirty tricks" to undermine progressive movements. They planted false media stories and published bogus leaflets and other publications in the name of targeted groups. They forged correspondence, sent anonymous letters, and made anonymous telephone calls. They spread misinformation about meetings and events, set up pseudo movement groups run by government agents, and manipulated or strong-armed parents, employers, landlords, school officials and others to cause trouble for activists. They used bad-jacketing to create suspicion about targeted activists, sometimes with lethal consequences.[53]

Legal harassment: The FBI and police abused the legal system to harass dissidents and make them appear to be criminals. Officers of the law gave perjured testimony and presented fabricated evidence as a pretext for false arrests and wrongful imprisonment. They discriminatorily enforced tax laws and other government regulations and used conspicuous surveillance, "investigative" interviews, and grand jury subpoenas in an effort to intimidate activists and silence their supporters.[50]

Illegal force: The FBI conspired with local police departments to threaten dissidents; to conduct illegal break-ins in order to search dissident homes; and to commit vandalism, assaults, beatings and assassinations.[7][50][51][54] The object was to frighten or eliminate dissidents and disrupt their movements.

The FBI specifically developed tactics intended to heighten tension and hostility between various factions in the black militancy movement, for example between the Black Panthers, the US Organization, and the Blackstone Rangers. This resulted in numerous deaths, among which were San Diego Black Panther Party members John Huggins, Bunchy Carter and Sylvester Bell.[50]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO#Methods

[leveymg]

56. FBI worked with the NYPD BOSS Unit. Both were immediately present at Malcolm's assassination

Gene Roberts, one of Malcolm’s chiefs of security, was an NYPD undercover cop. Roberts was an agent with NYPD’s Bureau of Special Services (BOSS), a super-secret political intelligence unit nicknamed the “Red Squad.” Roberts was on the scene as Malcolm was assassinated. Roberts later went on to infiltrate and disrupt the Black Panther Party.

Whenever Malcolm spoke in New York, the NYPD would have at least several uniformed officers on the scene. On the day of his assassination, the visible police detail was moved across the street. There were two policemen in the building at the moment he was killed and had been placed at entrances far from the ballroom where he was speaking.

Meanwhile, Roberts did nothing to intervene when the assassins drew their guns and rushed the stage, firing repeatedly killing Malcolm X. Nat Hentoff, writing about the incident in the NYT, references: " the inertness of nearly all the armed local and federal undercover cops in the audience. (Their presence was confirmed two days later by the New York Herald Tribune.) As the fatal shots were fired, the cops just sat there, as if they were watching a show." http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/h/hentoff-freely.html

[villager]

79. Just like security details around King "coincidentally" missing, or told to stand down

n/t

[leveymg]

93. This is characteristic of an extrajudicial execution by proxy.

Protection details withdrawn or on lunch break. Happened all the time in El Salvador. Same here.

[villager]

99. Funny. We were the ones exporting those techniques to El Salvador, via the School of the Americas

Of course, they'd never "blowback" on us!

[leveymg]

60. That's an entirely misleading statement. See #56, above. n/t

[rhett o rick]

64. What are you basing that on? nm

[Rex]

29. Well as head of the KGB...er...former head, you think he planned out a lot of assassinations?

Pooty Poot got a lot of training in the art of assassination. So it is not too hard to put 1 and 1 together.

[Ichingcarpenter]

38. See post 37

[Rex]

112. I thought about that too, it could be a setup. Many possiblilities really.

Just I am looking at the most obvious one, an ex-KGB head that know the political art of assassination. It was overt and looks fishy as hell imo.

What other enemies did this guy have?

[ND-Dem]

40. do you feel the same about george hw bush? remember the reagan attempted assassination,

and how the assassin's family was acquainted with the bushes?

[JonLP24]

42. George HW Bush always had a funny way being in the right place at the wrong time

Following the revelations by the Rockefeller Commission, then-DCI George H. W. Bush admitted that "the operation in practice resulted in some improper accumulation of material on legitimate domestic activities."[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_CHAOS

[jberryhill]

31. Ah, the Lone Nut Anti-Defamation League has arrived

Pro tip: events come with their own individual facts.

[cpwm17]

52. +1000: Yes: follow the evidence n/t

[villager]

80. As do patterns.

nt

[JonLP24]

34. If its done by a nut then I'm suspicious

Last edited Sat Feb 28, 2015, 06:06 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't mean a Free Mason conspirator firing shots at a White House window when the President isn't even there -- I have listened to some preach on "Free Masons". The way they tell it, inevitable if someone truly believes will try something like this. I mention actual Free Masons like Ben Franklin and how ideologically different he was to other known Masons. I point out they are open to any race & religion (though "god is part of it), the only thing they require is good morals which would probably rule out the vast majority of world leaders. They still prefer their theory.

What I mean is the friend of the CIA director, international corrupt businessman, was killed in a New York highrise by a schizophrenic bag lady from Seattle. -- http://books.google.com/books?id=C2UCn6u816EC&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=stanford+reveals+cia+links+bob+beyers&source=bl&ots=puLiiCfCyJ&sig=KegIMR5YesIps1_hSNx7-AuQLcU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BMq3UJGHG8TG0AH66IDABA&ved=0CE8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=stanford%20reveals%20cia%20links%20bob%20beyers&f=true

I went to look up some political murders in Ukraine. A judge & his whole family was beheaded -- but came across a Right Sector political leader. Given that they are very Russiophobic, including responsible for burning protests alive in Odessa (forgot the first letter for), there is likely large number of likely suspects.

On edit -- For some reason I confused an article with the headline inquiring who killed a Right Sector political leader with a recent political assassination but looking, appeared to be an opposition figure firmly within Russia. Digging -- which led me to the true information also stumbled across this.

Stepan Bandera

Stepan Andriyovych Bandera (Ukrainian: Степан Андрійович Бандера; 1 January 1909 – 15 October 1959) was a Ukrainian political activist and leader of the Ukrainian nationalist and independence movement.

In 1934, he was arrested in Lwów (in Ukrainian, Lviv) by Polish authorities and was tried twice: for involvement in the assassination of the Polish minister of internal affairs, Bronisław Pieracki; and at a general trial of Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists executives. He was convicted of terrorism and sentenced to death, but the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment.

In September 1939, while Poland was being invaded, under unclear circumstances Bandera managed to get freed from prison and proceeded to work, with German support, for an uprising in the Kresy. These eastern Polish territories had a majority Ukrainian population, and went on to become modern Western Ukraine. At the same time, he tried to stoke unrest in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, modern Eastern Ukraine. His goal was to establish a unified Ukrainian state, composed of areas where the majority of inhabitants were ethnic Ukrainians, but that had been under the control of Poland and the Soviet Union.

<snip>

After the war, in 1959, in Munich, Germany, Bandera was assassinated by the KGB (Soviet security agency).[1][2]

Assessments of his work have ranged from totally apologetic to sharply negative.[3] On 22 January 2010, the outgoing President of Ukraine Viktor Yushchenko awarded Bandera the posthumous title of Hero of Ukraine.[4] The award was condemned by European Parliament, Russian, Polish and Jewish organizations[5][6][7][8] and was declared illegal by the following Ukrainian government and a court decision in April 2010. In January 2011, the award was officially annulled.[9]

Stepan Bandera remains a controversial figure today both in Ukraine and internationally.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

Very fascinating stuff. As far as the judge, this one, and other recent political assassinations both in Ukraine & Russia they all mention clean, professional kills. While crime & corruption are very much a part of Russia & Ukraine, I wouldn't be surprised if Eastern European criminal organizations have holds over certain governments or parts of law enforcement in the US. Organized crime is rampant is post-Yugoslavia war countries.

[Hekate]

36. So to be clear: The US has a good case of stochastic terrorism going on. They are not lone gunmen...

...and those of us who do not dwell in the Gungeon know it.

Also to be clear: The US has the all-holy Second Amendment and the NRA lobby to ensure that everybody in this country has enough weaponry to arm a small nation if they want to buy same. Russia -- probably not. I think the government doesn't necessarily want its citizens armed, so the logical suspect in an assassination of this kind is the entity that owns the guns. Well, to be fair, they have their gangsters too.

[JonLP24]

46. I don't know how they fool people into believing that -- the NRA

The government restricts & takes away so many freedoms & tramples over them anyway. You even point your gun at a rogue law enforcement agency & you catch hell. It even makes it easier for them because of how it looks with you with a gun.

I did know the grey wolf population is threatened all in that territory except within Chernobyl (though unauthorized hunting takes place--human access is significantly controlled) so I know hunting at to be big in Russia (The USSR had a large shooting wolves from helicopters campaign & regional governments still do though interestingly Russia discontinued this but individual hunting of wolves persist). In any case, I don't see how they could maintain a gun ban with all that territory.

Firearms-Control Legislation

While self-defense and protection of property is a constitutional right guaranteed to Russian citizens, Russian legislation on gun control is relatively strict, limiting the circulation of firearms to Russian citizens older than eighteen years of age with a registered permanent residence, and for the purposes of self-defense, hunting, and sports activities only. The acquisition of guns is based on licenses provided for a five-year period by local police departments at one’s place of residence after a thorough background check, including a review of the petitioner’s ability to store guns safely and an evaluation of his/her medical records. Mentally ill people and those who have been treated for substance abuse are not allowed to possess firearms.

Major issues related to gun control are regulated by the Federal Law on Weapons and implementing regulations issued by the federal government and varied executive agencies. Legislative assemblies of the Russian Federation constituent components can enact provincial laws related to the circulation of firearms so long as they do not contradict federal legislation. Individuals are allowed to have up to ten long-barreled guns in their possession, and more if they are collectibles. Individuals are not allowed to carry guns acquired for self-defense; a license only serves as a carrying permit for hunting and sport firearms when these guns need to be transported. Russian citizens may not own guns that shoot in bursts or have magazines with more than a ten-cartridge capacity. The legalization of short-barreled handguns is currently being discussed by the legislature.

While self-defense and protection of property is a constitutional right guaranteed to Russian citizens, Russian legislation on gun control is relatively strict, limiting the circulation of firearms to Russian citizens older than eighteen years of age with a registered permanent residence, and for the purposes of self-defense, hunting, and sports activities only. The acquisition of guns is based on licenses provided for a five-year period by local police departments at one’s place of residence after a thorough background check, including a review of the petitioner’s ability to store guns safely and an evaluation of his/her medical records. Mentally ill people and those who have been treated for substance abuse are not allowed to possess firearms.

Major issues related to gun control are regulated by the Federal Law on Weapons and implementing regulations issued by the federal government and varied executive agencies. Legislative assemblies of the Russian Federation constituent components can enact provincial laws related to the circulation of firearms so long as they do not contradict federal legislation. Individuals are allowed to have up to ten long-barreled guns in their possession, and more if they are collectibles. Individuals are not allowed to carry guns acquired for self-defense; a license only serves as a carrying permit for hunting and sport firearms when these guns need to be transported. Russian citizens may not own guns that shoot in bursts or have magazines with more than a ten-cartridge capacity. The legalization of short-barreled handguns is currently being discussed by the legislature.

According to news reports, the legal sale of weapons as well as the illegal acquisition of guns has significantly increased in recent years, especially after terrorist attacks on a hospital, theater, and school in 2002 and 2004, and a number of more recent mass shootings in public places committed by criminals or mentally unstable people.[8] These guns were apparently purchased for self-defense in response to the presumed inability of the state authorities to defend individuals from terrorists and criminals,[9] which has provoked an ongoing public discussion about the necessity of additional gun control measures or further simplification of firearms laws and expansion of the types of weapons allowed for personal possession.

http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/russia.php

So they do have seemingly more strict -- a more thorough background check process, mass shootings in Russia increased more black market gun acquisitions.

All the Wolf Russia English links come up broken, the ones that work are in Russian

This documentary briefly mentions the large school shooting wolves from helicopters of the USSR, how recent it still is -- in the clip is a former helicopter hunter who now drops rabies medication disguised in bait from helicopters but mentions how much hunting threatens the wolf population outside the zone -- implying the active hunting culture that exists in Eastern Europe.

[CJCRANE]

44. IMO the tactic is to weaken, divide and destabilize Russia.

A simple tactic used by the west on rivals abroad and dissent at home.

[Blue_Tires]

110. Like Russia has been doing in Ukraine?

[Octafish]

45. Thank you, villager!

Mass Media ignoring 'RFK Believed in Conspiracy' shows corrupt nature of America's Press

That was two years ago and those who produce Charlie Rose still haven't aired the segment.

[villager]

81. +1.

But what? The powerful having suasion here!? Skewing events and perceptions in their favor!?

Where's my American exceptionalism!?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

49. Those are certainly my immediate guesses *as to what is most likely*.

That's not quite the same thing as an assumption, though.

The current Russian government has a history of murdering its critics. The current US government does not.

[Bluenorthwest]

55. It's my experience that political murders and deaths are always subject to various opinions even

when the deaths are accidental or natural. I can't think of a single such murder in the US that has had a universally accepted narrative. I've never come across one in another country that did not also have controversy and conspiracy theory around it. The idea that there are 'immediate assumptions' just strikes me as not being grounded in reality.
And to be even more pedantic, I read that the Moscow murder was done by 4 gunman, which of course in itself excludes the 'lone' anything. 'Lone' means one person. 4 people can't be lone gunmen.

[treestar]

61. Not comparable

Here political opposition is able to speak and there is tons of it. Too many people to kill. Thank you First Amendment

[villager]

89. Quite comparable, actually.

See: What happens to people getting close to affecting actual structural change.

[treestar]

91. We can change the structure by this system.

Constitutional amendments, etc. We are happy with our structure to the point there has been no real challenge to it since 1860. All of the changes made have been via the system.

There is always an opposition, and it can say whatever it wants without being killed.

[villager]

100. You're actually saying -- with a straight face -- that no one in the "opposition" here has ever been

...killed, or murdered?

Seriously?

Straight face?

[Blue_Tires]

111. So now you're saying political dissidents are executed regularly in the U.S.?

??

[villager]

113. So now you're saying there's never political violence in the U.S.?

Particularly aimed by the powerful -- their militias, etc. -- against the powerless?

??

[Blue_Tires]

114. Name the last high-profile politician or political activist gunned down in the U.S.

Then go count how many there have been in Russia since that time...

[villager]

115. What do you think of the plane "accidents" of those going to testify against Rove, or the "suicides"

...of various reporters who were working on links between the CIA and drug runners, the Bushes and organized crime, etc.?

[Blue_Tires]

116. Which specific plane crashes? I'll try to dig up the NTSB reports...

The funny part is Moscow doesn't even bother to make things look like suicide, they just shoot them in broad daylight (or give them a big-assed dose of polonium when gunfire is inconvenient...)

[villager]

117. I agree that "Moscow doesn't even bother to make things look like suicide"

Here, for the time being, such niceties are still observed.

Odd that pretty much the same group of people who benefit from the plane wrecks and suicides, though, were more or less the same group that benefited from all those "lone nuts," eh? Lucky cabal, that group.

[William769]

68. The powerful in Russia are "lone nuts". nt

[malaise]

69. And don't forget any unsubstantiated

conspiracy theory is acceptable when the murder is in Russia.

I wish all those Western leaders would be as upset re Dr. David Kelly's death but then he exposed their lies re WMDs in Iraq.

[villager]

74. Ah, yes, but what Kelly was exposing was hitting a little too close to home, eh?

Such posts would have to be relegated to a CT dungeon. Whereas, if it's in an "enemy" country, then discourse and speculation are both "news" and "general discussion."

[malaise]

77. Precisely

In fact M$Greedia leads the CT pack once it's a foreign country.

[LittleBlue]

82. Not convinced Putin did this

He has an MO of sending people to gulags, like Khodorkovsky. It would have been much easier to imprison him on a trumped up tax evasion charge. I could see Putin fabricating documents, but gunning someone down in a public square near the Kremlin? That's amateurish. And besides, killing him just makes him a martyr. Wouldn't it have been easier and more effective to charge him with a crime?

I have no evidence to believe or disbelieve it was Putin. He certainly has the power and motive to pull it off. Then again, Russia is the biggest gangster state in the world. These sorts of murders are common, and have been long before anyone had heard of Putin.

[Orsino]

118. The blessings of capitalism mean we have Fox and hate radio...

...so our nuts can never truly be alone.

[villager]

119. No, indeed, as society and policy itself become increasingly sociopathic

Our nuts -- particularly the powerful ones -- ever reap an increasingly "bountiful crop."