I'm disgusted by Democratic disloyalty doing the Koch Brother's job for them

[maxrandb]

I see folks on here saying that we shouldn’t be loyal to the Democratic Party. That “both parties are the same”, and that we shouldn’t have any loyalty to the Democratic Party, because they only support 75% of what “they” (the disloyalist) support.

These folks are doing the Koch Brother’s job for them. Nothing makes T-baggers happier than disloyal Democrats doing all that they can do to keep the Dems in the Minority. It enables “right-to-work” laws in WI and IL. It allows for anti-vaxxers to run the Technology and Science Committee in Congress. It enables state legislatures to seriously ask if a woman could have a vaginal ultrasound by swallowing a camera. It enables a guy who thinks the world in 6.000 years old, to bring a snowball to the Senate floor to dispute climate change…and it makes that idiot the Chair of the Committee in charge of our environmental policy! It enables state after state to roll back Civil Rights and Voting Rights. It ensures 50-100 more years of T-baggery at every level of government including the Supreme Court.

The Koch Brothers and the T-baggers are laughing their asses off. They don’t have to lift a damn finger to see their vision for this country to come to fruition.

That disgusts me. The fight for the future of this country is no longer about whether or not we will ever get “Single Payer Health Care"…It’s about if there is going to be any fucking thing left of our country that we recognize. This is not a game, where if you sit on your ass and lose one day, and then you can get them next time. Their plan is for there NOT to be a next time…and disloyalty to the Democratic Party provides them an easy path to get there.

To those who embrace disloyalty, you need to ask yourself a very simple question; “do you want to live in a country dictated by the T-baggers?” If your answer to that question is “yes”, then be disloyal. If the answer is “no”…you know what you need to do. Sorry, but there is no middle ground anymore, and we are quickly running out of time to stop the T-bagging onslaught that is coming if we don't take a stand. We no longer have the luxury of being disloyal to the Democratic Party.

I don't know about you, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the Democratic Party reflects my values and vision 1000 times better than the T-baggers...and there is no doubt that this country is a better place to work and live under the Democratic Party's vision. That's why, despite any disagreement I have, or flaw I may find in a Democrat, THAT Democrat is still more preferable than any T-bagging Republican.

I think that we are very close to a crisis in this country that will take 100 years or more to recover from. At a time like this, loyalty is a “no-brainer”.

It's no longer about "loyalty", it's about survival.

[randys1]

1. +1000000000000000

[sendero]

2. I'm so happy..

... that your world is so simple. Just, "Republican bad, Democrat good".

Maybe you should jump on board with what is really going on, "the few politicians not owned outright by the 1% vs. the handful that are not".

Because that is what is going on and third way Democrats fall squarely in the former category and they are really no better than Republicans IMHO. In fact, they are destroying the Democratic brand by claiming to be progressive and then governing like a moderate Republican. Vote for them if you wish, I will not.

[maxrandb]

4. And I'm very unhappy

that in your simpleton world, you see no difference in either Patrick Lehey or Chuck Grassly as Chairman of the Judiciary Committee.

That's basically what you are saying. You're saying that their is no difference between having Jim Inhoffe in charge of a Committee, or Bernie Sanders.

and you call my world "simple".

Sorry, but I prefer Justices appointed by...say...Hillary Clinton to those appointed by ...say...Scott Walker. don't you?

[sendero]

5. The marginal benefit..

.... of the crumbs the fake ass Democrats toss us to keep us quiet does not rise to the level of making them worth actually voting for.

If there are no truly progressive candidates to vote for, I don't see the point in voting. If you do, please go ahead. I'm not playing the Hobson's choice game any longer.

[maxrandb]

13. [phone]

[stevenleser]

81. I have no idea why that above post was hidden. Who considered that over the top? nt

[greatlaurel]

90. I was wondering the same thing, Steven. There was nothing wrong with that post.

It appears that anyone who does not go along with the anti-Democratic Party talking points, seen so often of late, will be attacked. I noticed a right winger on one of the talking head shows this morning using a couple of the right wing talking points we see so often here. It appears they experiment with their different propaganda items, before they take them out to the MSM.

Janey Vee was spot on.

Thanks for you post.

[Andy823]

105. I have no idea either

There seems to be a lot of post being hidden these days, especially ones that disagree with the "trash and bash" antics of the "anti" everything group here on DU.

[one_voice]

120. Agree.. I have no idea what was so bad about...

it that it needed hiding.

Very bad hide imo.

But it is the weekend...

[tazkcmo]

129. Me either.

I guess it's because of the "white male" thingy. Sensitive.

[Number23]

138. I was just thinking the same thing! Nowhere near a personal attack and a very honest

and even more truthful post. I can't believe that was alerted on and really can't believe that was hidden.

Hiding it don't make it any less true.

[fredamae]

26. I agree! n/t

[misterhighwasted]

36. + 100000. Well Stated

..." the privilege of being a single issue voter while the rest of us are being assaulted on all fronts by the Republican party"

[MFM008]

57. exactly

even if you get "crumbs" from dems you get SQUAT from repukes. You get a bill. Its attitudes like that one that keeps handing those bastards power when they should be in their caves held back by a fire line.

[ND-Dem]

30. bernie sanders isn't even a democrat, for god's sake, and patrick leahy isn't a 3rd way

democrat either.

is that the best you can do? surely there are more 'good democrats' than the two senators from Vermont?

[maxrandb]

56. No kidding

but when Democrats were in the majority, Patrick Leahey was INDEED Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, and Bernie Sanders Chaired a Committee and played a major role in the direction of this country.

What are the chances of that happening under T-bagger rule?

That's my point. There are a lot of good Dems, but without the majority, you give the power to idiots like Grassley and Inhoffe...not to effing mention Issa!

Tell me one time if your life where you could imagine Chairman Issa being preferable to ANY Democrat....I dare you.

[misterhighwasted]

35. You "get it". Thanks for the post. I am with you.

Kudos to your ability to point out the critical point in the 2016 election.
United we stand, divided we fall.
With a GOP 2016 Presidency, through media purchased bias, gerrymandering, Supreme Court bias as in GWBush/Gore, voter restrictions and a multitude of political "fixes" from the SCourt to the local mayor, and driving the Teapartry & GOP, & Fundy KKKristians to the ultimate goal of rewriting our Democracy to look like Saudi Arabia is closer than one thinks.
We either remain divided on single issues, and hand them the Presidency, the final piece to complete their New World Order, or we unite & fight to keep & repair what is left of our once great Democracy.

Thanks for seeing the "big picture".

[brush]

82. So who are the few not owned by the one percent?

You talked about them but don't mention any names.

And the Democratic brand, as you put it, encompasses a "range" — unfortunately that range goes from progressive to blue dog. It is not and never has been strictly progressive but that progressive element drags it, "kicking and screaming at times", from going completely to the opposite dark side of repugness.

So instead of refusing to participate in the Hopson's choice of dems vs repugs, stay on board and continue to exert the progressive, and direly needed, influence from us on the progressive end of the Democratic brand.

If you don't participate and vote, you may as well just wrap 2016 up in a bow and hand it to one of the riders in the repug clown car of presidential candidates.

We've already seen what happens when non-Hopson choicers sit out the vote — the 2014 mid-term repug take-over of Congress.

Are you happy with that?

[padfun]

3. A lot of those people..

are actually Repubs acting like Dems. They just want to muddy the waters.

[alarimer]

6. I don't believe in loyalty above all else.

It makes no sense.

They have to EARN our votes; loyalty has nothing to do with it. It's about principles and doing what it right for people, not corporations.

[LWolf]

7. I'm disgusted by

Democrats being loyal to party leaders and elected officials instead of being loyal to the positions on issues that the Democratic Party, its leaders, and its elected officials are supposed to be loyal to.

I am disgusted by all party leaders and elected officials who are NOT loyal to those issues. I think it's disloyalty to issues and to the voters that depend on those issues that makes the Koch Bros' jobs easier.

Since we're discussing disloyalty.

[HereSince1628]

8. I'm disgusted by people who think criticism of the Dem RIght is disloyal to the entire party

[LWolf]

12. That, too. nt

[maxrandb]

20. And I've said before

Sometimes you need a Senator Landreau to get a Supreme Court Justice Ginsburg. That to me is an acceptable trade-off, unless of course, you prefer folks like Scalia or Thomas on the SC.

[HereSince1628]

21. that's a great bit of cherry-picking...I hope you can sustain that.

[maxrandb]

22. Sustain what?

This President is going to go down as one of the greatest progressive Presidents in our history, and two of the most remarkable things that he did were passed with Democratic Majorities in the House and Senate. A majority he only enjoyed for 2 years.

Majority power is extremely important. Even with Dems that are a little to the right of me in office THIS COUNTRY TOOK STEPS IN A MORE PROGRESSIVE DIRECTION

I'll take Harry Reid as my Senate Majority Leader over Mitch McConnell, and Nancy Pelosi as my Speaker of the House over John Boehner, even if that would mean that some Dems in the Senate and House didn't pass your liberal litmus test

[HereSince1628]

23. It's also a non-sequitur. My comment was about generalizing authentic criticism

What you want or accept is fine by me. But calling people who disagree with you disloyal isn't ok with me.

[ND-Dem]

32. +100

[Katashi_itto]

74. Senator Landreau?

After her Keystone push I stayed home for her run off vote. She still in office?
I couldn't see much difference between her and Republicans on economic issues. Not to mention the corruption issues.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

109. You're joking, right?

To quote from his wikipedia entry

The full Senate debated Scalia's nomination only briefly, and confirmed him 98–0 on September 17, 1986

and from Clarence Thomas'

Thomas's confirmation hearing was uneventful. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on March 6, 1990, and received his commission the same day.

You need Senators like Landrieu to GET Supreme Court Justices like Scalia and Thomas. We have those Justices, along with Roberts and Alito, thanks to the MANY Democratic Senators 'like Landrieu' who voted for them to be seated.

Don't pretend that that those very Senators aren't in large part to blame for the very crappy partisan RWers we have on the Supreme Court now.

If they were worth spit, they would have blocked those ultra-partisans and demanded middle of the roaders.

[GoneFishin]

113. Yep. A lot of good it did to elect them "for the sake of the big picture". nt

[G_j]

121. agreed

[jeff47]

10. There sure is a lot of people applying to be kommissar.

Please give us a list of the acceptable party positions, so we can get to work throwing everyone else out of the party. Because nothing gets people exited to vote like demanding blind obedience.

Or with less snark:
"Lesser of two evils" is why things have gone to hell over the last 40 years. You want to continue down this path. You will get the same results: A gradual erosion of everything you believe in as small pieces are sacrificed for "the big picture".

Your entire post is "vote against Republicans". That's not going to get the people you need to the polls. You have to give them something to vote for instead of something to vote against. Because these "marginally attached voters" hate the status quo, and you are making a status quo argument. That we have to maintain our current place, or only give up a little bit. That is not what we need. We need better than the status quo. And "lesser of two evils" will never get us there.

Missteps in the 1980s and 1990s mean we will only be putting up status quo candidates for quite a while - we accepted "lesser of two evils" for too long. But times are changing. That will create conflict and quite a ruckus within the party. But it also means we'll start turning this giant ship towards a better course.

[maxrandb]

17. Your post would ring true

if there actually were a "lesser of two evils".

There is one evil in this country right now, and they wear Teabags on their tri-corner hats and have the backing of Ayn Randian whack-job billionaires.

Voting for Democrats is NOT voting the "lesser of two evils"...it's voting AGAINST evil!

[jeff47]

24. It's compromising with evil.

If you're just trying to maintain the status quo in a political system, you're going to be giving away little bits here and there to the extremists in order to make the system operate at all.

Instead of fighting to keep where we are, and losing a little ground when we compromise, we need to fight for better and compromise to the status quo at worst. Sometimes we'll even win a little ground.

[maxrandb]

58. You sound like a T-bagger

who sees any compromise with a Democrat as "treasonous".

There really is no difference, except that the T-baggers seem to understand that elections matter. Oh sure, they'll bitch and moan about how "impure" some member is, but they'll get out and vote anyway because they realize that WITHOUT THE MAJORITY, YOU CAN'T ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING

[Katashi_itto]

71. Yes and we all see how unsuccessful Teabaggers have been with no compromise. They don't control

anything...oh wait.

[misterhighwasted]

38. And THAT is the Bigger Picture of why this 2016 election is at the critical tipping point.

Thanks for your Posts maxrandb

[obxhead]

115. Bullshit.

We have many true Democrats to fight for.

However they are "unelectable" because the status quo must be maintained.... Maintained by the pepeople that tell us here daily to do so.

Change is possible, but we have to make it happen. Voting for koch supported dems will not bring it.

[dissentient]

11. There is no loyalty oath one must take when joining the Democratic party

You just check the box, and voila, you are a registered Democrat! It is just that easy.

What a lot of these types of posts miss is it's the party that is supposed to work for and serve those who are Democrats, not the other way around.

The Democratic leadership and party have to get good candidates, make appealing stances, deliver good messages, and hope by doing these things that they inspire people to go to the polls and vote for them.

If the Democrats have been taking a shellacking lately, and they have, then they need to figure out a new message and image.

[HereSince1628]

15. Are then majorty of democratic voters are formally party members??

I know that's not true in WI.

And the things that can get you membership in the WI democratic party, don't really ensure equality among party members. The deeper you are, the more influence you have.

[maxrandb]

16. No

The Democrats have been taking a shellacking in "off-year" elections. They have done very well in National elections when Democrats actually get out and vote.

Now, why you would elect a President in an Electoral Landslide, and then two years later, turn the reigns of power over to the criminally insane wing of a political party, is hard for me to understand.

Democrats have put out good candidates, but voters just don't turn out in off-years.

And on other thing....if I believe that the current majority party is destroying our country and threatening to roll back every progressive victory over that last century, from Social Security, to Medicare, to the Civil Rights Act to the ACA, then yesIT IS PERFECTLY VALID TO CAST A VOTE TO STOP THEM.

We HAVE a lot to vote FOR. Saving the country from an evil racist party taken over by whack-jobs, is a vote FOR something!

[treestar]

28. It's not that way round

Of you think about it. Simple logic. A party can't work for you. People disagree. You have to make some common cause with some people and you will disagree with them on some things.

[Aerows]

98. The message of

"We aren't quite as evil as they are" isn't working.

They need a message (and voting like they mean the message) of "We are making your vote count in Washington by looking out for the little guy."

[tritsofme]

14. This group of voters is so small and irrelevant that they really aren't even worth your rant.

[Katashi_itto]

72. Then why worry about us?

[Marr]

87. Becuase they'll cost us the election!

They're irrelevant! Ignore them!

They're to blame for our loss! Ignore them!

They're irrelevant! Ignore them!

We seem to go back and forth between those two messages, according to the political season.

[we can do it]

18. Me to

[Broward]

19. Well, how is the Tea Party agenda even on the table?

I think it's a result of the steady rightward march of both parties on most issues over the past 35 years that has shifted the poles of the debate. The answer is to not set our sights alone on the far right. Rather, we must start pulling this party left again.

[TheKentuckian]

34. It is continuous and purposeful process. In a few years they will be selling a multicultural,

"keep abortion safe, available, and rare", spell checked version of the Tea Party as "sensible centrist".

[Agnosticsherbet]

103. Because Democrats didn't vote in 2010, Republicans were able to gerrymander states

in the vision of the astroturf tea party bought and paid for by the Koch brothers.

On Democrats oppose further erosion of our government.

It isn't about the rightward drift of Democrats.

It is about a government bought by the Koch brothers.

[daredtowork]

25. Wouldn't exposing fractures in the Democratic Party be doing the job of the Koch Brothers?

That's what it seems to me that all these Hardliner, Loyalty, and Purge posts are really about. They are trying to create the same Center/Wing split that is currently making the GOP so dysfunctional.

People are repeatedly invoking a threat "no one will vote" in the upcoming election that few people, if anybody is actually making - and that only in the context of expressing doubt about some candidate (mostly Hillary, but occasionally Bernie) being able to marshal a substantial vote. So it seems these repeated LOYALTY OATH posts are coming from people who have spotted a fracture and are trying to apply pressure.

Does a little green football come with that helmet?

[Enrique]

27. fucking retards, right?

[George Osborne]

29. A random thought from a Democrat in bed with a cold

Hi,
I have upon occasion visited this site trying to figure out how the political party of my birth has morphed into something that is almost unrecognizable today.

The party seems more interested in getting elected than providing and supporting an agenda that returns to the premise of a government of, by and for the people instead of military expansion into foreign lands and the deaths that it leaves in its wake.

Did you know that the US military is one of the worlds largest users of Oil, which is separate from the energy use by the USA as a country. So it seems the US is fighting wars to secure the oil to fight war for more oil.

While I was born in the USA in 1945, due to my fathers work was educated in England with occasional detoured to America, New Zealand, Switzerland and Italy so my perspectives are perhaps a little more global than most.

One of my major memories was when we moved California and attended Santa Monica High school for a semester. In a history class the teacher was lecturing on how the USA saved Europe during WWII when I raised my hand and said something to the effect that Russia actually destroyed the German war machine after Hitler chose not to listen to his top military staff that Napoleon lost his army attacking Russia in the Winter.

Here I'll quote Wikipedia, I wish we had computers back then, well there were computers but they were bigger that a train;

''The battles on the Eastern Front constituted the largest military confrontation in history.

They were characterized by unprecedented ferocity, wholesale destruction, mass deportations, and immense loss of life variously due to combat, starvation, exposure, disease, and massacres. The Eastern Front, as the site of nearly all extermination camps, death marches, ghettos, and the majority of pogroms, was central to the Holocaust. Of the estimated 70 million deaths attributed to World War II, over 30 million, many of them civilian, occurred on the Eastern Front.

The Eastern Front was decisive in determining the outcome of World War II, eventually serving as the main reason for Germany's defeat. It resulted in the destruction of the Third Reich, the partition of Germany for nearly half a century and the rise of the Soviet Union as a military and industrial superpower.''

And when I mentioned at another time that the destruction of the native populations of the Americas and Australia is considered ''genocide'', something we were taught in world history class in all my other schools I was sent to the principals office. I went home instead and insisted I return to England to finish out my education, which I did.

As a life long Democrat I am appalled that Americans have so little knowledge of history and the mistakes made along the way, that we are now repeating them. And one is how societies, like Rome go from chaos to a Republic, then democracy, then dictatorship and back to chaos. Dictators are not necessarily a Ceasear but can also be a dictatorship of the corporations(fascism) or the power of the Koch brothers to buy politicians.

The republic died shortly after it began, democracy lasted longer but by the later part of the 1800's, with its global outreach the USA actually became an Empire.

Today the Republicans are totally lost in the fog of self-serving ignorance, so the only alternative is for Democrats to learn from history and stop supporting the ever rightward swing of the status quo and start a new movement to take back the country for the people, though history has shown is nearly impossible. Progressively regressive?

None the less, we still need to be trying to change instead of bickering back and forth on whom is the best of the worst, because that is the vary why the USA is at this stage of its history today.

I doubt that I'll post much due to the rancor here but I have a cold and in bed for a few days and thought I'd join and say my peace in hopes the Democratic party will get gelled and move forward to a better century that the Republicans have to offer.

Sorry if this was rambling, I have a temperature and not up to par but still able to hope for a better future for my grandchildren and great grandchildren.

[icymist]

37. Welcome to the DU George.

I do hope your cold gets better.

[William769]

41. Hope you feel better.

But if you're peddling what I think you're peddling then thank the lucky stars you're in America, because you'd be up the creek without a paddle in Russia. Just sayin.

[George Osborne]

45. Just what do you think I am peddling?

Your inspid comment is one of several reasons I won't be posting here after I recover.

[William769]

47. Well it will be your loss.

Have a nice day.

[George Osborne]

50. My Loss?

I think not and I can hardly wait to recover and get home.

My wife and I are expatriates living in Italy, though if this sabre-rattling getseven more absurd we will sell and relocate to New Zealand.

[truebluegreen]

60. Our loss.

Thank you for your post, and get well soon.

[frankfacts]

94. What's George peddling?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

110. Cold hard facts.

Which are never welcome to those who prefer to stick their fingers in their ears.

[malokvale77]

43. Welcome to DU

Excellent first post.

[RiverLover]

67. Not rambling, such a good post. And you did it with a bad cold!

Today the Republicans are totally lost in the fog of self-serving ignorance, so the only alternative is for Democrats to learn from history and stop supporting the ever rightward swing of the status quo and start a new movement to take back the country for the people, though history has shown is nearly impossible. Progressively regressive?

Its crazy, isn't it?

This is what we need to remember & return to~

http://billmoyers.com/2014/04/10/we-need-to-remember-the-fight-for-the-four-freedoms/

Feel better soon.

[DanTex]

68. You're right about Russia and WWII.

But about America, we certainly weren't anything resembling a democracy before the 1860s. And women couldn't vote nationally until 1920.

[frankfacts]

92. Makes sense. Get better soon and welcome from a fellow new guy!

[JonLP24]

132. My grandpa was a huge war historian

especially of WWII since he was born in the late 1920s.

He often and always emphasized how critical Hitler's choice was to decide to invade Russia in the winter (I had no idea about his own adviser). He points out if he didn't do that, he probably would have won the war.

On edit -- terrific post all-around .

[KingCharlemagne]

140. While everyone bashes today's Greeks for being lazy profligates, the entire Western

world owes the Greek people an immense debt and profound gratitude. Its partisans so be-deviled Mussolini that Hitler was forced to delay Operation Barbarossa for a crucial six weeks so that Wehrmacht units could be deployed to Greece to put down the partisans. Hitler himself blamed Mussolini's mis-steps in Greece for his defeat by the USSR. Without that six-week delay, the war in the East might have been over before the winter set in, Hitler would have then pivoted to crush Britain, and we might all be speaking German or Japanese today.

[99Forever]

31. I'm loyal to...

... principles, shared views of issues important to the 99%, honesty, transparency, and integrity, not personalities or who's willing to bribe the highest or say anything to get into office.

Shame on me. Sue me.

[Tsiyu]

33. People have to survive first;

you miss that part of the equation.

The party will fail if it does not address reality.

Cheer all you want; delude yourself all you want, but the party needs to answer some very tough questions about where they want this nation to go.

Your efforts are wasted otherwise.

[William769]

39. Kick & highly recommended.

[cascadiance]

40. Loyalty is earned by those who seek it, not something that people they "have" to have...

Democratic organizations should earn loyalty by doing work for those they seek loyalty from, not doing work for others and just demanding that others be loyal "or else bad things will happen" to keep them in line. Those organizations that don't seek to earn loyalty from its members are more like organizations such as the Mafia rather than democratic organizations.

[Savannahmann]

42. Very powerfully written.

So the Democratic Party reflects your views 1000 times more than the Republicans. I'm actually very sorry to hear that.

Because this Democratic Party is a pale shadow of the one I respect and love. We used to call on people to strive for the common good, now, we just want them to strive for the good of our richest supporters.

JFK, announced that we would go to the moon. He did not promise us that we would be first, but absent the effort, we would certainly be last. He did not promise it would be easy. In fact he was right up front with us when he said it would be hard.

But if I were to say, my fellow citizens, that we shall send to the moon, 240,000 miles away from the control station in Houston, a giant rocket more than 300 feet tall, the length of this football field, made of new metal alloys, some of which have not yet been invented, capable of standing heat and stresses several times more than have ever been experienced, fitted together with a precision better than the finest watch, carrying all the equipment needed for propulsion, guidance, control, communications, food and survival, on an untried mission, to an unknown celestial body, and then return it safely to earth, re-entering the atmosphere at speeds of over 25,000 miles per hour, causing heat about half that of the temperature of the sun--almost as hot as it is here today--and do all this, and do it right, and do it first before this decade is out--then we must be bold.

Kennedy made no bones about how hard it would be. It would be nearly impossible to do it before the end of the decade, and it would be after he left the White House no matter what happened. So he could not hope to bask in the glory from the Oval Office when man first stepped on the moon. But it was a goal worth achieving, a goal worth striving for. A burden our nation had to shoulder, together.

How about FDR. His brilliant speech on the Four Freedoms. Talk about grand idealism beyond the reach of mortal men.

In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.

The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want, which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor -- anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called “new order” of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

I could go on, and on, and on. I could list speeches from the Senate about how our world could be better, but we must strive together to reach that place. I could quote Supreme Court decisions that ordered equality and freedom.

Now days, it seems all I can quote is the disappointments. No charges will be filed by a Democratically managed Justice Department over the murder of unarmed black men. No charges will be filed in the actions of the police to abuse the citizenry of their civil rights. We can't go for Single payer, it's too hard. Imagine my disappointment when I realize the same party that told the world we were going to the moon because it was hard now announces that we can't do things, things that need to be done, because it is too hard.

We used to reach towards the stars, and we reached the moon. We used to strive to improve mankind, and we used to speak from the heart as we described our dreams. Dreams that inspired generations before us. Dreams that filled hearts with joy, the downtrodden with hope, and filled the Congress with Democrats.

Today, we don't dream big, we dream of winning. We don't know what we'll do if we win, but we want to win. We had giants who stood on the mountain and cried out the hopes of the people. Now, we have mice who squeek that the cat won't let us do anything.

I am terribly disappointed in the Democratic Party. I'm disappointed that we aren't doing more. That we aren't striving to right the wrongs. That we aren't holding our hands out and helping the lowest among us stand beside us. I'm disappointed that we have forsaken the ideals of those great men and women who came before us. Some of those older than even myself marched in protests to demand that Blacks be given the right to vote. That segregation be abolished once and for all.

Think about that. Think about it for a minute. There was a time when people like you, and I and most of the folks here would have marched in protests to demand justice for the abused minorities. I marched, and I stood there and demanded that people recognize AIDS was a killer and we should strive for a cure. I protested the asinine sodomy charges that too many of our brothers and sisters endured. I protested an end to the threat of Nuclear War.

We used to demand more from our elected leaders. We used to demand more of our Government. Now we're happy to get less, so long as the other side doesn't get anything. We have become the party that exists for one reason, to oppose anything the Republicans support, and to support anything that the Republicans oppose. That isn't a political party. That isn't even a good script for a half assed B movie about politics.

But this is good for you. This is what you want to see. This is perfect, the awesome culmination of a lifes work, and generations of dreams.

I'm saddened. I'm convinced that those Giants, FDR, Truman, and JFK. I'm convinced that those men would spit on us and call us cowards. I feel certain that those greats who set a standard that we should all strive for would be ashamed to be in the same party with us.

LBJ was a low point, but sadly he seems to have been the mold for the rest of those that came next. Because after LBJ, it seems that we've become casual, relaxed. It's good enough, it's almost like our motto became that of a half assed repairman. That'll do.

That attitude would have prevented Bobby Kennedy from trying to do more after he had given his Brother to the world. But even despite that, Teddy Kennedy stood up and said he would take up the mantle. While he wasn't nominated, he did serve this nation until his death in the Senate, giving us many speeches and votes, and laws that strove to make a difference. That'll do never entered his vocabulary. He fought until the very end for what he believed in. Always striving to do more.

We've set our sights so low that we're in no danger of tripping over them. That's not a good thing. That's not something to cheer. It's something to lament. This is why so many people tune us out. This is why there were four million fewer voters for President Obama in 2012 than in 2008. Because we have decided that'll do is good enough. We don't need to try harder than that.

[LWolf]

99. +1

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

111. +all. nt

[rhett o rick]

44. Strawman OP.

You said this, "I see folks on here saying that we shouldn’t be loyal to the Democratic Party. That “both parties are the same”, and that we shouldn’t have any loyalty to the Democratic Party, " Funny because I have never seen such here. Would you care to give us some links?

The important thing is that we change the current course towards corporatism. Your call for blind Party loyalty isn't very progressive. Some Democrats agree with the Republicons. I won't support those Democrats. Seems that some here think all Democrats are the same. I do see that makes their life easier. Don't worry about how a person stands on the issues, just ask if they are a Democrat.

[arcane1]

46. Everyone is making up shit about DU these days. This OP is doing the Koch's work for them.

And all these posts seem to be saying, some more subtly than others, that if Hillary Clinton is not your preferred candidate, then you're not a real liberal.

Only republicans can benefit from that attitude.

[Marr]

48. Are you a dog?

No self-respecting person is "loyal" to party leaders. We support them and work with them so long as they do their jobs and advance our agenda-- or at least sincerely try to. If they will not do that, they're as much on their own as we are. And if their main argument for deserving our support is, as you have offered, that they will not harm us as much as the other guy... well, they can go fuck themselves.

[woo me with science]

119. Best post in the thread.

[TexasProgresive]

49. Those who say, “both parties are the same” do not belong to the Democratic party.

In my experience everyone who ever spouted that crap always voted R.

[truebluegreen]

61. I have to laugh

at the thought that anybody who votes R ever thought "both parties are the same." Claiming to be the same as the Kenyan-usurper-supporting traitors? Riiiiight.

[TexasProgresive]

62. They claim that the parties are the same for one reason

They don't believe it. It is just one more tool in the Rs rat box to convince likely Dem voters to not vote.

[truebluegreen]

64. I've spoken with plenty of RWNJs and have never heard any of them say that.

Vehemently the opposite in fact: purple-faced, spit-spewing, clenched-fist I'm-right-you're-evil vehemence. And those are the family members.

[TexasProgresive]

65. That's right, the ones I'm talking about are smarter than the RWNJs

Do you think it is only DUers who are smart enough to hide their true allegiance for a strategic aim? They are not stupid. The ones who spray you face with spittle don't have the sense or ability to use this technique.

[stone space]

51. Disloyalty?

Are you deliberately attempting to drive people away from the Democratic Party?

[still_one]

52. amazing isn't it, for a "Democratic site, Democratic Underground". This is the same garbage that

Ralph Nader tried to propagate. The FCC for net neutrality was 3 to 2 straight across party lines:

"The vote was 3-2, with the commission's Democratic majority backing a plan that puts broadband providers in the same legal category as more highly regulated conventional telephone companies."

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-net-neutrality-fcc-vote-20150226-story.html#page=1

So these wonderful "idealists" who profess that they will not support the Democratic nominee if it is Hillary, perhaps should pull their head out of where the sun don't shine, and think of the consequences if a republican became president in 2016

As you pointed out the Supreme Court is perhaps the most obvious issue that will make a difference for decades, and help or hurt people.

[blue neen]

53. I suspect that you are more correct than you even realize.

Good post.

[Oilwellian]

54. The irony of using the Kochs is amusing

Since it was the Kochs who funded the Third Way Democrats to begin with, and the First Way Democrats have a problem with that. Loyalty to the Kochs brand of Democrat? Pffffftttttt!

[RiverLover]

63. Thank you.^

They don't get we want to bring Democrats back to being Democrats.

We need t0 get away from Koch-style Government for Business & Profits over People.

And its not just at DU.

Tell Democrats: Stop Running Away From Democratic Values & Achievements

SIGN PETITION

One of the more frustrating parts of this past election was watching the trouncing of the large numbers of Democratic candidates who tried to pretend they were not Democrats, but rather, "Republican Lite."

Frustrating, because we've seen this strategy fail again and again. Voters who want Republicans vote Republican.

Frustrating, because we've got real achievements to run on. Democrats created Social Security and Medicare, and are now the ones protecting them. Democrats fought for decades for health care reform, and are now the ones protecting it. Democrats are for raising the minimum wage. Democratic presidents have consistently reduced the deficit, while Republican presidents – in spite of their bluster – have increased it. Democrats are better for America, across the board.

And frustrating, because candidates who’ve proudly and loudly embraced these values and achievements have done better, even in red states.

We understand that every race is different, and that what plays in Berkeley might not be exactly what plays in Peoria. But even if the exact words used differ, Democratic values are American values, and they can and should be defended as such across the nation.

Send a message to Democratic officials and Democratic candidates: Stop running away from Democratic values and achievements – embrace and defend them....

http://leftaction.com/action/tell-democrats

[Marr]

88. +1

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

55. "Love it or Leave it?"

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever, in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else, where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. If I could not go to heaven but with a party, I would not go there at all." Thomas Jefferson to Francis Hopkinson, 1789.

Freedom for supporters of the government only, for members of one party only, no matter how big its membership may be is, no freedom at all. Freedom is always freedom for the man who thinks differently.

Rosa Luxemburg

[AtomicKitten]

59. seig heil, komrade

better?

[Scuba]

66. And I'm disgusted by the Koch and Wall Street-backed "Democrats" in our party ...

You may be OK with our representation in Washington looking like this, but I'm not!



We need to stop doing this...

[Katashi_itto]

70. Just amazing to see fascism at work in both parties. I no longer doubt the country will be

fascist by the 2020s. You'll have enablers like these OPers cheering it all on.

[L0oniX]

86. Mindless voters is what the oligarchy wants.

[Katashi_itto]

69. As a Loyalty Officer for the Glorious Peoples Democratic Party, you must strive harder

To crush the dissidents!!

VOTE HILLARY!

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!

[hobbit709]

73. I'm disgusted by anyone that says I need to march in lockstep.

[madokie]

75. Yup its about survival

I don't want to be a part of anything especially a political party that is 100% in agreement with me. I want us to live and learn. Trying our best to be better

I vote 100% Democratic and support our dems whether I agree with them or not, in fact I don't want a dem who I can agree with 100% of the time around me. That person is a lying sack of shit if he or she claims to be in agreement with me all the time. Fuck that noise

Good OP

[Katashi_itto]

76. It's about Winning

[merrily]

77. The Koch brothers donated to the DLC and served on the DLC's Executive Council.

http://americablog.com/2010/08/koch-industries-gave-funding-to-the-dlc-and-served-on-its-executive-council.html

The DLC has given rise to Third Way, the Progressive Policy Institute, Century for American Progress, No Labels, etc.

So, if you want to know who is doing the work of the Koch brothers for them, you might look at who is helping take the nation further and further to the right.

[L0oniX]

84. ^^^THIS^^^

[MrMickeysMom]

125. Absolutely...

[mother earth]

78. I think people are just plain giving up on the divided political system. While I too identify with

democratic principles, always have and always will, I simply see nothing but the status quo with the broken and ineffectual system we presently have. Congress doesn't work, every part of gov't seems rendered useless or is funded by super money.

In the next election $1 billion is going to be spent by both sides, and by the Koch Bros. Do you honestly think the whole thing hasn't been hijacked?

If people are to facilitate change, it is going to take the masses simply coming together through common ground and the conclusion that a change needs to be in the entire system itself. Who is being truly represented? None of us, but special interests sure are.

[merrily]

89. Some are giving up because of gridlock (which doesn't bother conservatives very much) due to an

overly partisan political system and some are giving up because the political system is nowhere near as divided as they'd like it to be.


No one ever gets represented as "truly" as he or she would like, probably not even Senators or the President. However, the one group that always get representation is the 1%. And that happens not because they offer money, trips, etc., but because politicians accept them.

I can do precious little about the Koch brothers. In theory, anyway, I can do something about incumbent politicians.

[mother earth]

106. I understand what you mean about imcumbency, but let's face facts. We are all waking up to the

"rigged game" and it extends into everything not just Wall St. There's a reason why electronic voting booths remain unsecured, a reason why campaign finance reform is not tackled, a reason why SCOTUS enabled Citizens United after two stolen elections and enabling the win on the first one for GW.

This is about far more than not be "truly" represented, it is about plutocracy & illusion of choice and democracy.

[merrily]

107. You are preaching to the choir.

However, I am not so sure that 2004 was a stolen Presidential election.

[mother earth]

108. Fair enough, I know, merrily, I know...

[raouldukelives]

79. The people who support what you describe. The people who fund it & labor for it.

Who make the corporations that buy off our politicians and democracy richer, are the only people to truly blame.
The only thing standing between us and democracy is corporate money.

I don't blame the unregistered homeless person. I don't blame independent activists. I don't blame disgruntled abstainers.
I blame the ones who make the people making things worse wealthier. Like slavery. I wouldn't blame those who didn't own slaves or profit from it. I blame the ones who did. No matter how they voted. It dwarfed politics.

It is about survival. On that we agree. Not just for us but for most of the planets inhabitants. It dwarfs not just our USA experiment, but all experiments since our time began. The only people we need to be disloyal towards are the ones disloyal to us, to our shared democracy and to our shared planet.

[truebluegreen]

80. I'm disgusted by loyalty oaths.

[L0oniX]

83. Everyone vote D. End of discussion ...no point in having a website other than to agree to vote D.

[BubbaFett]

85. propaganda

[greatlaurel]

91. Great post! Thank you for this righteous rant.

It is truly about survival. There are many people whose lives are destroyed by the right wing policies. Lives are being lost and families are being destroyed. These facts are completely ignored by the posters who insist on standing on their "progressive values". The fact that these supposed liberals care not a tiny bit about the victims of the right wing policies while they tear down nearly every Democratic Party candidate as not good enough, shows these people are either dupes of the right wing propaganda machine or are actively working against true progressives.

It is interesting how many posters have attacked you with some incredibly inflammatory language. I can not believe some of these posts were not alerted on while Janey Vee's post got hidden by a jury. Wow.

[maxrandb]

96. I think we should just ask the Union members and progressives in WI

if they wished that Democrats had been "loyal" Democratic voters in 2010 and 2014.

Does anyone here think that there is any way at all that "right-to-screw-workers" laws would have been introduced, passed and signed if Democrats were still in charge on Wisconsin?

That's what we are fighting for. That is why we need to elect Dems! The rat-bagging T-hadist are shoving right-wing wet-dream legislation down our fucking throats, while pissants try to convince us that so-called "3rd-way Democrats" are the "real" enemy.

Holy Fuck... We almost lost Senator Mark Warner in Virginia and would have seen him replaced by Ed "fucking" Gilespie????!!!!

I don't give a fuck if Mark Warner was a "69TH Way Democrat", he's imminently better for the country than Ed "fucking" Gilespie.

And I'm sorry, but THAT'S YOUR FUCKING CHOICE A relatively sane and reasonable Democrat, or someone like Ed "fucking" Gilespie.

I say again.....ED "FUCKING" GILESPIE!!!!!!

[greatlaurel]

100. Ohio is rapidly being turned into a third world state. The amount of corruption from Kasich is huge

The vast majority of voters stayed home this past November and gave Kasich a huge victory and even more incredibly right wing legislators here in Ohio. They are already going to do even more tax and take legislation. Massive giveaways to charters schools and their Republican owners, more graft and corruption at every level, taking away more money from public schools, and passing more of the women-hating legislation. It is astounding that the voters allowed this to happen, because of voter apathy. Of course, the Democratic candidate for Governor got lambasted in the GOP controlled press for being out with a female trade rep from Ireland some years ago. The trade rep soundly denied there was anything going on, but the news media ignored her statement. The potential Democratic voters stayed away in droves and allowed these cretins to be reelected by the lowest voter turnout in the history of Ohio.

But the true believers were satisfied, because none of the Democratic candidates were good enough to make an effort to go vote for. Ohio may never recover from the outright theft of public resources by this crew of GOP carpetbaggers. We will have a generation of children with substandard educations thanks to the budget cuts to public schools. Many people will die from the lack of health care. The city of Toledo had no drinking water for several days last summer thanks to a toxic algae bloom. The GOP leaders will do nothing to correct the amount of pollutants that are feeding the toxic algae in lakes all over Ohio and Lake Erie.

I would take any Democratic candidate over the criminal Kasich. Now, Ted Strickland has announced he will run for Senate against the incredibly corrupt Rob Portman. Democratic pundits are loudly complaining against Ted running, because he is not a good enough liberal and of course he is not exiting to their delicate sensibilities. It is almost like Democratic pundits have all been hired by Karl Rove.

I could not believe this woman's anti Ted Strickland rant. Disgusting. She would rather have Rob (Screw Workers)Portman reelected than vote for Ted Strickland, a reliable and good man and a good and proud Democrat. http://www.ohiodailyblog.com/

It is stunning that we are seeing all these posts against Democratic candidates on a blog that is to promote Democratic party politics and Democratic candidates. Seems we are being seriously trolled.

Thank you for saying this.

[RiverLover]

117. Why didn't Strickland do anything to help stop Big Ag runoff and bad sewage pipes when he was Gov?

To help stop the Algae in Lake Erie? It didn't appear overnight.

Because he was in bed with Big Ag just like a rethug would be. Same for big oil.

Both parties are to blame.

Ohio elected a Democrat in Strickland, and he failed them.

I just moved here a year ago, and in November, I voted for the Democrat Gov candidate who "forgot" to get his drivers license renewed & drove illegally for seven years in his 30s and who when it came out about his little parking lot fling, he suddenly started talking about his son who almost died from cancer. But he never did address the affair...

The DNC supported him so much he couldn't afford a single TV ad.

The only yard signs I saw in support of Dems were Anti-Kasick signs.

K-sick is a disaster and he's quietly running for president. Terrifying thought. But don't blame democratic voters who didn't show up. Our party failed us in Ohio. We need to bring THAT to light, not just blame voters because they didn't have a real choice.

[greatlaurel]

139. Thanks for the GOP talking points, they sound like something from Rob Portman's campaign

Ted Strickland had appointed a great director of the OhioEPA who was working very hard to overcome the massive damage to the regulatory structures in Ohio from the last two GOP governors and GOP controlled legislatures. The GOP took away the authority to regulate factory farm waste from the OhioEPA and put it under the authority of the Ohio Department of Agriculture, which is the classic fox guarding the hen house scenario, before Ted Strickland took office. To remedy that disaster would take the legislature to undo their handiwork which the GOP run Senate was not going to do. Blaming Ted Strickland for the algae bloom in Lake Erie is pure Kasich/GOP propaganda, especially since it had been nearly 4 years since Strickland had left office.

The Green Energy bill Strickland got passed was going to bring tremendous economic development to Ohio and add thousands of decent jobs for ordinary working people. That has now been dismantled by Kasich and the GOP legislature.

I think you are not at all familiar with the great strides Ted Strickland made in his 4 years as governor to undo the damage 16 years of GOP governors had done to the state. Ted Strickland did not fail Ohio.

Yes, failing to get a drivers license renewed by Ed FitzGerald is so much worse than all the outrageous acts from John Kasich. From helping Lehman Brothers steal $400 million in Ohio pension funds to the unconstitutional hirings for JobsOhio and the Ohio Health Department, Kasich has managed to minimize his actions that have cost Ohioans billions of public tax dollars. His active theft of local public tax funds to give to his campaign contributors that run the very profitable charter schools is a disgrace that no one except teachers and a very few parents are talking about. Let us be sure to pick apart every defect of any Democratic candidate while the Republican thugs rob us blind, allowing people to go without proper food, medicine or housing. Let us make sure here in Ohio that the wealthy are protected and comforted while the disabled. the mentally ill and veterans are given nothing to aid and comfort them.

Every person who failed to vote in this election should be ashamed of themselves. We had great candidates running for AG, SOS and for the Ohio Supreme Court. The gentleman who ran for US Rep in my district is a great and intelligent man. Furthermore, the canard about not running good enough candidates is absurd when the GOP office holders are dismantling the public sphere for the benefit and profit of themselves and their wealthy donors. It is safe to say that every Democratic candidate running this past election would be better than the GOP thugs who won the election.

The Democratic Party structure in Ohio leaves much to be desired. However, it is not like it is any secret that the Ohio GOP is working to take away the voting rights of tens of thousands of minorites in this state. They are not even trying to be subtle about wanting to stop minorities from voting in Ohio. For that reason alone, we should have had massive voter turnout just to make sure people retain the right to vote in this state.

FitzGerald released his key card parking information, John Kasich has never released his parking information, so the public has no idea when or if Kasich ever shows up for work.

Finally, it is no ones' business what people do in their private lives. I am not interested in whether Kasich had a long standing homosexual affair any more than any affairs that FitzGerald may have had. Although, the lady completely denies anything untoward happened and was quite adamant about that in a public statement that basically was not covered in the GOP owned media here in Ohio. John Kasich's personal demons, either just an all around mean spirited jerk or being a deeply closeted and in denial gay man, are none of anyone's business, either.

[RiverLover]

142. Wow, I voted for Fitzgerald, straight Dem, made sure I had the right judges.

But it was not a proud moment. I was more motivated by the polls showing Democrats might not have enough votes to remain a viable political party in Ohio.

We essentially didn't have a Democrat running for Governor. How can someone run a state if they can't handle renewing their drivers license? The party failed us. It was a colossal failure. If we don't learn from that, we're doomed. The country NEEDS Democratic policies, we need to look at our failures & LEARN from them.

Stop blaming voters!!!

[TheKentuckian]

118. It is folks like you that insist on making that be the choice and it will require folks like you to

change those options other than continuously for the worse.

I think you guys are fairly dug in on this, it is unfortunate that this stubbornness has and will generate so much pain but it must be confronted to help not just the people today but for generations.

Time for you and like minds to make a fucking choice, I suspect it will take 3 or 4 Presidential cycles before some will seriously consider what so many claim to actually want, I would see the crutch "relatively sane" taken away and burned, it is a distraction from what is needed instead of the slow motion die off of a surrender like a body starving to death promoted as "pragmatism".

Some want a diverse version of the Republicans, some want to be a less embarrassing and/or less potentially economically disruptive TEA party, some profoundly risk adverse seeing each surrender as potentially less costly than being beaten the idea of winning long gone from their minds, some hope that if we can just stall long enough some magic force will swing things the other way, some just want the "team" to win and hear this is the way to do it so fine (though curiously will rationalize all kinds of losses which makes me question the "just win baby" bonafides), some it almost seems can't really conceive of anything else.

There are all kinds of reasons and I don't give a damn about any of them because they are all excuses to do the wrong thing under the cover of the excuse that the other guy will do worse and that isn't an acceptable long term pattern and this has clearly a long term situation. It has to be broken otherwise there is no functional opposition to the right which is dominant and entrenched now all over, including our party.

Your choice is the right. You can fight it or you can join it if you think they are a better coalition for your aims but my votes and efforts won't be to facilitate your surrender to it (and it only adds to the insult when the claim is that it is for me).

[HappyMe]

93. Yuck.

I don't do loyalty oaths.


I am wondering where all the cries for loyalty were before the November election.

[Scootaloo]

104. I wonder why it's exclusively clinton supporters who want them

Actually, I don't.

[NaturalHigh]

123. Seriously? Ever been in the BOG?

I support Hillary Clinton, but I've never asked for anyone's "loyalty." Loyalty as seen in the OP seems to be "Don't question, don't ask, just do what we tell you and be grateful for anything we might give you."

[Scootaloo]

124. Not all Clinton supporters demand loaylty, but all loyalty-demanders seem to pull for Clinton

And yes, I've been in the BOG. i got banned for telling another poster that missiles are not humanitarian aid, back in the drumbeat for war against Syria in 2013.

I suppose if your point was "it' not just some Clintonistas demanding utter loyalty" then it's well-made by that example, yeah

[frankfacts]

95. I'm disgusted at the Pentagon's ownership of all broad media discourse

[hrmjustin]

97. I will support our nominee. I detest puma people who say they won't support our nominee.

[AtomicKitten]

134. Only 71% of Clinton supporters ended up voting for Obama.

link: http://themonkeycage.org/2011/10/05/this-week-in-political-science-divisive-primary-edition/

Using a survey that tracked individual voters from the primary to the general election, Michael Henderson, D. Sunshine Hillygus, and Trevor Thompson ... examine whether and why Clinton supporters did or did not support Obama in the general election. They find that 71% of Clinton supporters ended up voting for Obama. Moreover, supporters of Clinton and the other Democratic candidates were no more likely to stay home on Election Day. The most important factors that predicted a vote for McCain among supporters of the other Democratic candidates were not frustration with the primary election’s outcome but ideology and political issues, especially the Iraq War.

[hrmjustin]

135. Cnn exit polls say 83 percent.

http://edition.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#val=USP00p3

[AtomicKitten]

136. Still that provides cover for those opposed to another Clinton administration

... and will not vote for another Clinton.

[hrmjustin]

137. People can do what they please but I despised puma in 2008 and despise it now.

Do what your you feel you need to do.

[Scootaloo]

101. Do you have in your hand a list of two hundred and five Disloyalist DU'ers?

I will vote for the most liberal person in the Democratic primaries.

Then I will vote for the most liberal person in the General election.

if you take issue with this plan, then tough. I don't plan to do differently. Want me to vote democratic in the general? Cool, let's put a really liberal democrat on that ballot.

[daleanime]

102. What is this 'disloyalty' you speak of.....

and can you give me some examples?

[arcane1]

126. They never give examples.

I've lost count of how many threads like this I've seen recently.

[daleanime]

131. Amen....

and every time I see one, I speak up.

[obxhead]

112. I'm ashamed of Democrats, even moderate centrist Democrats

Supporting extreme right Republican values.

However, I'm supposed to just deal with it.

Policy over party, otherwise you're guilty of everything we've fought against for decades.

If survival means pushing forward with republican values than it's time for the beast to die.

[Aerows]

114. Blind obedience

to anything scares the shit out of me, and if questions frighten you, that means more questions need to be asked.

The Democratic Party is a political party - it's not a fucking cult.

[Iggo]

116. Say "Supreme Court" again.

That never gets old.

[NaturalHigh]

122. BS.

We are not required to march in lockstep with anybody.

The loyalty you ask for in your OP is "Don't question, don't ask, just do what we tell you and be grateful for anything we might give you."

[Android3.14]

127. Oh goody, another "Be a sheep or else" thread

Sounds like the corporate supporters of a particular candidate whose name rhymes with "pilory" must be worried.

[bowens43]

128. blah blah blah blah blah. It's people like you who put us in this position.

the lesser of 2 evils is no longer good enough....fuck that. I won't vote for someone just because they might be just a little better then the other guy.

[Bonobo]

130. You're surviving in slow motion. What about the survival of your kids and grandkids?

You think they'll be anything left for them if we keep on this course which drifts only to the right?

[madfloridian]

133. There must be opposition, else there is just a one party nation.

This is the lecture given to any of us who question our leaders. Hasn't worked, won't work.

[RedCappedBandit]

141. Disloyalists. LMFAO. Give me a fucking break. nt

[maxrandb]

143. All that is required for evil to prevail

is for good men to do nothing!

[freshwest]

144. Thanks for the excellent rant, maxrandb.