So, bigots, if Islam is so horrible, why aren't you walking or biking to work?

[closeupready]

Cuz every time you fill up your gas tank, the Saudis thank you.

[philosslayer]

10. Islam is horrible?

I'm sorry. I didn't know Rev. Graham posted on DU.

[Trajan]

11. Islam is awful, and so is Christianity and Judaism ...

Each one is utterly fucked up in it's own humanity-hating way ....

They can all take a flying fuck at a rolling donut (Vonnegut, pbhn)

Signed,
Adamant Atheist ...

[PeaceNikki]

13. Amen.

[samsingh]

28. i don't know why your post was hidden.

[Codeine]

38. That was a bad hide, PeaceNikki.

Someone owes you an apology for being an apologist.

[eissa]

63. Yes, it was. Jury got it very wrong this time. eom

[Quantess]

75. Okay, now I get it...

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Hate speech against a religious people. Let me be clear, the Islam part.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:33 PM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The Saudis AREN'T horrible? Islam is not exactly a wonderful religion, and notice she didn't smear Muslims in general.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I was a response from the same words in the OP, taking the bait I guess. I think the post should be left until PeaceNikki decides it best to remove it. I encourage everyone to let their feelings be known, not hide the post.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Post is repeating from the OP title. Vote to leave.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Probably inarticulate - but as written - hide
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: It's wrong to single out Islam. All religions have their horrible aspects, but a blanket condemnation of one particular faith is not appropriate.

[SidDithers]

165. What a shitty hide on your post...

Sid

[Codeine]

34. Jury Results

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:41 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I have no intention of taking a bad hide as some kind of precedence to hide this post. It's an equal-opportunity swat at all the Abrahamic faiths, and I fail to see why that is a problem. - Codeine
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a valid viewpoint. Equal opportunity too, getting the entire collection of misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted Abrahamic faiths together in one pile. Where they belong. If you don't like it, reply to it and make your case. It's not a hide-able post because it's not a personal attack of any sort. It's attacking an ideology, one responsible for much evil in our civil society today. Trajan's post is fine, because it expands what was a singular attack on a singular religion, to a broader, fair set of examples. He could have added some specifics about how each of those religions is humanity-hating, but not having them doesn't make it hide-able.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Can't say I disagree. The post should stand. It is an unpleasant truth, but still truth.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Jinx!

Wait, DOUBLE jinx, I'm juror 3! LOL

[Codeine]

40. Great Minds! nt

[Quantess]

50. I was a juror who voted LEAVE IT, although I know I wrote a comment.

I don't see my comment here, but I must have been #1, 5, 6, or 7

Basically I wrote something like: Saudis AREN'T horrrible in general? Also, Islam is not exactly a wonderful religion, and to say so is not a swipe against Muslims in general.

[LiberalElite]

153. Not do do with this subject but -

my jury comments often don't show up either.

[closeupready]

70. And I agree with the jury here, but also the jury who hid PeaceNikki's post.

PeaceNikki isn't really - in my opinion - bigoted, based upon what I've seen of her participation here, but the post itself was definitely hideworthy.

Let's not forget, folks, that plenty of muslims are Democratic voters.

[Quantess]

94. That's pretty smug of you.

It was not hideworthy in my opinion.

I personally think Islam is a brutal and outdated religion. I say the same about Christianity and perhaps also Judaism. All three are majorly fucked up religions! The world would be so much better off without this mountain of bullshit.

[Quantess]

113. I AM STUPID. Thanks.

What do we do with "just not very bright?" Well
we beat it into submission.

[closeupready]

114. You sure can dish it out, can't you? But you can't take it back. Noted.

I think I'll just put you on ignore as someone who characterizes others as "smug" (and likely worst) but alerts on every and any 'boo'.

Peace to you.

[Quantess]

117. What? You are a ridiculous person.

[Quantess]

120. Hey genius. I have read The Emperor's New Clothes. You seem pretty stupid yourself.

Watch out, dumbass

[mountain grammy]

139. So, see what you did there?

and what PeaceNikki didn't?

[AtheistCrusader]

36. Juror number 3 checking in with your results.

On Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:36 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Islam is awful, and so is Christianity and Judaism ...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6322032

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This post was in response to a post that said "Islam is awful". That post was hidden, and rightfully so. Therefore, there's no reason this one should stand.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:41 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I have no intention of taking a bad hide as some kind of precedence to hide this post. It's an equal-opportunity swat at all the Abrahamic faiths, and I fail to see why that is a problem. - Codeine
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a valid viewpoint. Equal opportunity too, getting the entire collection of misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted Abrahamic faiths together in one pile. Where they belong. If you don't like it, reply to it and make your case. It's not a hide-able post because it's not a personal attack of any sort. It's attacking an ideology, one responsible for much evil in our civil society today. Trajan's post is fine, because it expands what was a singular attack on a singular religion, to a broader, fair set of examples. He could have added some specifics about how each of those religions is humanity-hating, but not having them doesn't make it hide-able.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Can't say I disagree. The post should stand. It is an unpleasant truth, but still truth.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[dissentient]

67. What a terrible alert

These alerters need to realize that people can be against religion, even their precious Islam.

[philosslayer]

110. There's a difference between having legitimate grievances with a religion...

And calling it horrible. And a jury agreed. "Insensitive" language is not allowed on DU. Look it up. Wouldn't you agree that calling a belief system some hold dear as "horrible" is a tad insensitive?

[AlbertCat]

158. "Insensitive" language is not allowed on DU.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!




Never mind that the thread starts out calling us all hypocrites because we drive.... or that gas comes from other places besides Saudi Arabia so it's based on bunk to begin with.

[mountain grammy]

140. agree..

[katsy]

126. Yes it is

[treestar]

144. Yeah I don't think that should have been hidden

There is that anti-religion in general thing going on DU and it could have come from that.

[PeaceNikki]

12. Yes. My post criticizes an organized religion, a set of beliefs. You insult me personally... nice.

[philosslayer]

18. Yes, and you insult 1.6 billion people

Sounds like you got the good end of the deal, no?

[samsingh]

31. not good. personal insults are not acceptable.

[philosslayer]

41. I insulted no one

My point was that her views were basically the same as Rev. Grahams. I.e., Islam is horrible. Pointing out that one's views are the same as a known Islamophobe is not a personal attack.

[stevenleser]

47. They are absolutely not the same. She is anti-religion period, not anti-Islam. She is just as much

against Christianity as she is against Islam, so, her views are not close to Rev. Grahams.

[philosslayer]

62. Well you see, I'm not a mind reader

Her initial post said "Islam is horrible". Not Christianity, not any other religion. And that was the post I was referring to. And of course, since her post was hidden (rightfully so), I guess she's not allowed to come back and spew more vitriol.

[stevenleser]

64. I get that if you didnt know her you wouldnt know that. Its a shame its hidden because

it was hidden for bigotry and she wasnt being bigoted.

[ScreamingMeemie]

77. "vitriol"...?

Where. I see where she explained herself to you. Please don't misuse the English language.

[Bluenorthwest]

98. Religious people such as yourelf can quibble over which religion is 'best' or 'worst' those

minorities attacked by religions will continue to be critical of the shitty, unjust treatment and harsh invective that comes out of the faith communities.
Do you support equality for all people including LGBT or not?

[Lordquinton]

131. Maybe you should read what she is responding to.

Because this thread is specifically about Islam. Are you chastising the OP for singling out Islam? Or for giving incorrect information, thus perpetuating another stereotype about Arabs and oil? Perhaps calling them out on their ablist viewpoint, because not everyone can ride a bike.

Or are you here with a specific agenda and got lucky on an alert with enough people not reading what she was responding to?

[philosslayer]

141. I didn't "get lucky on an alert"

Because I'm not the one who posted the alert.

[stone space]

146. So if Rev. Graham hates atheists as much as Muslims, then it's ok?

What does it matter what he feels about other groups?

[stevenleser]

159. No, if Rev Graham was disgusted by all religions, the reference would be valid. Where did you get

what you wrote?

[stone space]

160. Your position seems be that it's OK...

...to say that Islam is horrible if one also says that Christianity is horrible.

But you balk when somebody says that both Islam and atheism are horrible.

Why is it OK to say that Islam and Christianity are both horrible, but not OK to say that both Islam and atheism are horrible?

[stevenleser]

161. No, that is not what my position seems to be. Read my first post in this thread.

The person whose post was hidden was anti-religion, not anti-Islam.

[stone space]

162. It is possible to be biogoted against both...

...Muslims and Christians, just as is possible to be bigoted towards both Muslims and atheists.

One form of bigotry does not excuse another.

Do racists get a pass if they are also homophobic?

I really don't understand the argument that you are making.

You seem to be arguing that one form of bigotry makes other forms of bigotry acceptable.

[stevenleser]

163. No, you are desperately trying to push a narrative that simply isn't there. nt

[stone space]

166. You are arguing that one bigotry excuses another.

I contend that it does not.

Bigotry against Christians does not excuse bigotry against Muslims any more than bigotry against atheists would excuse bigotry against Muslims.

You argument is simply invalid.

[stevenleser]

167. No, I'm not, that's the narrative you are desperately trying to push that isn't there. nt

[stone space]

169. No, it's an arguement that you are desperately trying to push.

I'm the one disagreeing with your contention that one bigotry excuses another.

It really doesn't.

[stevenleser]

170. Nope, I never said that and have no idea why you are completely not getting what I wrote. nt

[stone space]

173. Does bigotry against Christians excuse bigotry against Muslims? (nt)

[stevenleser]

174. No, and I never said it did. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

82. Can you help me understand why you feel...

religious beliefs and institutions have a special privilege that makes them exempt to criticism? I happen to agree with PN that magical thinking and misogynistic institutions are horrible. It doesn't mean I'm insulting 1.6 billion or 7 billion people. It means I think humans have made a horrible mistake by ascribing to these beliefs and supporting these institutions. I'd like to understand why you feel it's unseemly to express this and that such dissent deserves to be silenced.

[philosslayer]

87. The original post, which stated "Islam is horrible"...

was removed. Based on an alert, and a DU jury opinion. I did not alert the post. Clearly I am not alone in my thinking.

One of the reasons for alert is "This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate." If you don't think that stating a belief held dear by many on DU is "horrible" is disruptive, rude, or insensitive, then I suggest you take it up with management.

[Pacifist Patriot]

89. I'm asking about your response which asserts ...

saying Islam is horrible is an insult to 1.6 billion people. I did not see her original post so I can only ask about the comments you have made since it was removed. I'd like to know why you feel religion should have special privilege. Thanks.

[philosslayer]

90. We are on DU

The DU Community Standards state: "It is the responsibility of all DU members to participate in a manner that promotes a positive atmosphere and encourages good discussions among a diverse community of people holding a broad range of center-to-left viewpoints."

Tell someone their religion is "horrible" clearly does not meet that standard. Its not civil, nor sensitive.

Do I feel religion should have special privilege and be immune from criticism? Of course not. Reasoned criticism and debate is healthy. Stating right out of the box that a religion is horrible with no justification whatsoever does not meet the DU community standards. And a jury agreed. Again, if you have a problem, its with management, and not me.

[Bluenorthwest]

100. Mistreatment of women and LGBT people is wrong, no matter what name you give to your ritualized

bigotry. Executing gay people is horrible. There is no justification for it. Uganda does it for Jesus, Saudis do it for Mohammad. Just humans doing evil and blaming their religions for their own actions.

[Pacifist Patriot]

130. Thank you for answering my question.

"Do I feel religion should have special privilege and be immune from criticism? Of course not."

I'm curious about her post. Was she responding to someone and telling them that their religion is horrible or was she saying the religion is horrible? I would gather there's a difference there.

[progressoid]

124. We insult billions of people every day here. BFD.

And the good end of the deal? Wanna know who Americans like the least?

Hint: it's not Muslims.

It's Atheists.

[samsingh]

30. you make good points.

[Trillo]

88. jury results

On Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:35 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Islam is horrible?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6322012

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Personal attack to criticism of an INSTITUTION, not people.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Mar 6, 2015, 12:42 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Thought post showed a sense of humor, myself. Alerter too sensitive.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see anything wrong.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Sounds like he was answering a bigot. Leaving it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Criticism of institutions is the political core of democracy. It's protected speech.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Warren Stupidity]

127. All of the abrahamic religions are generally horrible.

They espouse misogyny homophobia authoritarianism and irrationality while claiming that a bunch of mistranslated contradictory and generally laughable ancient texts are the go to authority on human society. Come to think of it hinduism doesn't seem much better, and while buddhism seems to be fairly benign, it certainly hasn't always been that way. It is about time that religious ideologies joined totalitarian ideologies in the dumpster of bad ideas.

[riderinthestorm]

2. America only gets @ 8% of its oil from KSA

but do carry on...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. Sounds like an unwitting argument for Keystone./NT

[KamaAina]

17. It's XL, not NT

[FSogol]

46. DUzy.

[Erose999]

48. But none of the Keystone oil will be going to the US. Its all going overseas.

[PeaceNikki]

4. I try to limit my fuel consumption because I like the planet, not because I dislike theocracies,

Islam/Saudis.

Such a totally weird OP.

[el_bryanto]

5. It's hard to take any post that starts with "So, bigots, . . ." seriously. nt

[riderinthestorm]

35. There's a contingent here who love to holler "bigot"

mostly at nothing.

[FSogol]

44. True, my theory is the air is thinner up there when they are on their high horses.

[eissa]

65. Yeah, I was the recipient of the "bigot" label by this poster, too.

The label loses its meaning when it's thrown around so casually.

[closeupready]

74. So then, don't. Simple, see? Nobody is obliged to even notice my opening post.

Peace.

[jwirr]

6. Most of the people that do not live in a city do not have a lot of choices. In the area we live in

we are lucky - we have what we call rural bus systems that actually go door to door and make getting you to work or to a doctor a priority. Many use it. I now live in town and there is a community bus that does the same thing for us.

The door to door things seems strange but it reflects who are the riders. In the country it is a necessity to go door to door - dial a ride. In the community is used to make sure that the elderly and disabled have access to busses. Without access to transportation many of them would not be able to live at home anymore.

These two systems started out as busses for only the elderly and disabled but it was changed to include anyone in the community who wanted to ride. Now it is not surprising to see families and individual children riding the bus deep in conversation with some elderly person they call "grandma". It works for all of us.

[Fumesucker]

39. I'm glad you have that service, how did it come about?

Something like that would be invaluable around here.

[jwirr]

69. Years ago the local CAP program created a tax subsidized system using small buses to transport the

elderly and the disabled. It was one of the answers to the need to keep people out of more expensive nursing facilities. But it only served a small percentage of the population.

I am not sure how the idea of using it for the whole population came about but the community and businesses were very supportive because it brought in more business. We are also a pretty green area when it comes to the environment so that may have been part of it.

Everything just followed after that. The Headstart Program contracted with the new non-profit company to run their bus routes. Parents often used it to get there children to day care, pre-school and activities such as dance class. The company added trips to larger cities and special day service to outer rural areas. Any place that there was a need for transportation they were available. Our sheltered workshop uses them for transportation and many groups plan outings using the services (they hire the bus for a day). Some of us even use them as our ambulance service as they are much cheaper. I used it to go between communities by taking my local bus to Duluth and the bus from the other community home. Duluth acted as the hub between most of the communities in the Arrowhead region.

Funding from the beginning was a mix of government (all four levels - city, county, state and fed). Passengers pay around $1.25 for a one way trip inside the community. Those in outer areas often pay more but not much. Long distance trips to larger cities cost around $5 round trip and stay most of the day.

They started out with one bus but soon learned that there was a greater need. Today most communities in the system have 2-3 buses each. Our larger city in the area (Duluth) is not a part of the Arrowhead Transit system because they operate their own system in Duluth.

It really makes a difference to the people of the community. We all have greater access to the services and interests the community offers.

[dissentient]

7. Saudi Arabia is one of the worst countries in the world for gay rights

even worse than Putin's Russia. Yet, we are close allies with them. I smell hypocrisy.

[cwydro]

55. Not to mention how women are

treated.

[Iggo]

8. Wait. Who you mad at?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Essentially anybody who who uses (private) or (public) transit./NT

[Throd]

9. Every time you drive your car you show tacit support for beheadings.

[cwydro]

14. ...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. What if you ride the bus?/NT

[Throd]

24. Depends on how many other riders are on the bus to properly calculate guilt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Los Angeles ' buses run on natural gas, so

[Throd]

29. So you support Putin.

[cwydro]

52. Throd

you are cracking me up here!



Exactly the correct way to react to a thread such as this!

[Fumesucker]

42. Not every car...

[BlueCaliDem]

16. No one around here is claiming Islam is horrible. I'm hoping your post is directed at lurking

Republicans rather than any Democrats and Liberals on DU.

[philosslayer]

21. Look closer

Read the first response to this post. Clearly the thought that Islam is horrible has taken root on DU. Sometimes I wonder where I am.

[BlueCaliDem]

33. I didn't think that poster meant Islam but rather the terrorists posing as followers of the faith.

Then I read her other posts just beneath it. I guess all faith is horrible to her. *sigh*

So I stand corrected.

[Whiskeytide]

53. But a hide was still a harsh...

... result for that post. Peacenikki's follow up posts seem to make it clear that her contempt was not for Islam per se, but for all (or at least most) organized religions. That's a valid viewpoint, I think, even if you or I don't necessarily agree with it. I am reminded of the sentiment that we should not question God, but we should always question what men make of God.

Bad hide, IMO.

[BlueCaliDem]

60. I like that sentiment, Whiskeytide.

But I can understand why the Hide was necessary - full disclosure: I was NOT on that jury.

There is a strong anti-Islam sentiment raging through the United States because of terrorist groups like al Qaeda, the Taliban, and now ISIS. And with it comes a tide of rage against anyone who peacefully worships Islam; conflating terrorists hiding behind religion with peaceful worshipers of it. That's not a trend we should support on DU.

I am reminded of the sentiment that we should not question God, but we should always question what men make of God.

Words to live by for everyone for both people of faith and people of no particular faith.

[Bluenorthwest]

102. Allow me to quote you to demonstrate why Religious folks are not beloved by all minority groups

BlueCaliDem Donating Member Sat Nov-13-04 03:14 PM
"Gay marriage is for me unthinkable, but Civil Unions have my 100% vote. I believe that marriage is something done in churches, and the Bible does speak negatively about homosexuality."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1352110

The privileged attitude that allows you to declare my family 'unthinkable' in the name of your 'beliefs' is never going to win many friends for the faith community. If you'd said that about any other right of any other minority group.....

[Chathamization]

95. Is a post that says "Hinduism is horrible" or "Judaism horrible" OK if you make a later post saying

you also think Christianity is horrible?

Pretending majority groups and minority groups are equal is a problem the tends to be more prominent among conservatives, but shows up here as well. I don't want to see "Christianity is horrible," but we shouldn't pretend that make those statements are on the same level as "Judaism is horrible" or "Islam is horrible."

[Whiskeytide]

184. The issue of majority v minority...

... is a different issue, and I don't think it applies to what happened here. I didn't see that at all. PN was not suppressing a minority religion. I think PN's post was simply anti religion, and really nothing more. She dissed Islam because it was the topic of the OP. She seemed to clarify that in a later post, but I took it the way I think she meant it the first time.

Hiding a post because it's anti-Islam might be appropriate. Hiding a post because it's anti-organized religion is probably not appropriate.

(NOTE - sorry to be so long getting back to you. Out of pocket for a few days).

[Chathamization]

185. It's very much a majority vs. minority, or "privilege" (as people like to refer to it here) issue

One of the things that drives me nuts about all of the threads talking about whether or not to use the terminology of "privilege" to describe these things is that so much effort is wasted on which terms to use, when a thread like this demonstrates how the basic issues aren't understood by many here (not singling you out, talking about this thread overall and more generally a tendency to ignore manifestations of an issue but talk endlessly about which terms to use).

The fundamental issue is this - different groups have different power dynamics (and of course, these are situational). It's not OK for a white person to tell a joke about black people, and then defend it with "hey, I tell jokes about all races." Likewise, it's not OK for a non-Muslim to say Islam is horrible, and then say, "hey, I hate all Abrahamic religions." I understand the person doing so might think that they're just treating both sides equally, but the problem is that both sides are not equal. There are entrenched power dynamics involved (racism, anti-Muslim sentiments) that can't be ignored and have to be taken into consideration.

[snooper2]

106. you are on a public message board not in a pew

There is a reason religions are dying...

GOT SCIENCE?

As more and more people realize you don't need religion to tell you why a fucking earthquake happened, the religious will get worse.
The last religious people on the planet will all be FUNDIES of all stripes, and I guarantee you they will be horrible. Probably be about 100-150 years from now but we are getting there.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

23. Actually, the very first person to reply to the post did just that.

And got hidden for her trouble.

[samsingh]

32. a lot of people are being killed in the name of islam

[philosslayer]

43. A lot of people have been killed in the name of Christianity too

What is your point?

[samsingh]

49. my point is clear - there are not alot of Churches

preaching for killing members of other religions.

i hear the Romans were attacking Europe too - wait that was thousands of years ago.

[closeupready]

80. How subjective. I suppose as long as it works for you, and is fine with most here,

who cares, right?

[samsingh]

91. how is it subjective - what's been happening since 911?

[closeupready]

101. Subjective is drawing an arbitrary line in the sands of time.

Such 9/11. Or WWII. Or The Crusades.

Completely arbitrary and subjective.

[samsingh]

112. so why compare Christianity of the crusades to isis today?

[ProfessorGAC]

123. Arbitrary? Really?

You don't see that since the inquisition most major christian religions have accepted the scientific method, including the catholic church. That kind of moved them further and further from their past, and continues to this day.

How can such a clear difference over the passage of time be arbitrary?

Why do i feel i already know your answer?

[stone space]

171. I haven't been to enough churches to know what they are preaching.

my point is clear - there are not alot of Churches preaching for killing members of other religions.

I'm sure that it's all over the map, including a bit of this.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

45. Psychos use all sorts of excuses to 'explain' their atrocities.

Religion, 'self-defense', 'wars on x'.

Murderers will still be murderers no matter what 'reason' they come up with to pretend that killing other humans is 'reasonable'.

[samsingh]

51. psychos don't get support such as

- from foreign governments
- places of worship (mosques)
- tacit support - e.g. beheading is wrong but i understand their motivation
- family and friends - e.g. other religions are wrong, Islam is the only true religion

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

56. I would suggest that many of them do.

Certainly Dick Cheney and George Bush got all sorts of support for the murders they engineered, from foreign governments, places of worship, family, friends, and allies.

[samsingh]

92. true on those idiots

[closeupready]

68. Rhinodawg's account was revoked, but he was just one of many here

who DO hate Islam, and make no secret of it, other than perhaps they won't openly admit to hating muslims or Islam, or post elaborate disclaimers so as to mislead the MIRT team.

I very definitely see it.

[Scootaloo]

128. If by "around here" you mean within your own arm's length, sure

if you mean "on DU" though, well...

We just shooed off one such bigot. he'd been posting here for over a year, same shit day in and day out. We have several others who get to remain.

[Matrosov]

135. Islam is horrible

So is Christianity and Judaism.

I'm not sure why being against belief systems that promote homophobia and sexism is considered bigoted and intolerant around here.

[randome]

19. I can't ride a bike with this damned robe on!

And my hijab keeps bunching up over my eyes!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[Pooka Fey]

54. Really? Your sense of humor includes ridiculing Muslim traditional clothes?

[randome]

57. Oh, I've been ridiculing the segregationist aspect of clothing for a long time.

It's what religion does best, don't you know?

The clothes don't make the man, right? Except they do, apparently, in some cultures.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

66. Some cultures?

Try going in for interviews in 'inappropriate' clothing. Or walking in expensive neighborhoods in shabby clothes.

While the clothes don't make the man, people are judged on their clothes in pretty much every culture out there, ours included.

[randome]

73. Yes, they are. But for most people, their clothing does not also broadcast their religion.

The clothing of some religious groups is intended to mark them as belonging to a certain religion. And that automatically makes the rest of us not of their religion. In other words, it's a way to segregate us into groups whether we affiliate with a group or not.

It's no mystery why Judaism and Islam wear 'special' apparel -they are different sides of the same coin.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

78. You could say the same thing about people who wear shirts with pink triangles.

Wishing to assert your identity in your dress, whether ethnic, religious, or gender preference, is not automatically an insult to everyone else.

[randome]

84. Now you're supporting Nazis? I'M KIDDING!

Your example is of someone promoting an idea, which is a bit different, IMO. I don't think Muslims and Jews are 'promoting' something when they wear their special clothes. Theirs is a more insular identification. They identify with other like-dressed individuals.

Their own special club, which I disdain because of what I've already said: by definition, it's an attempt to define the rest of us, as well.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

93. Ok, then compare it to people wearing crucifixes or yarmulkes.

Again, just because somebody wears a cross I don't automatically assume they're trying to define every 'non-Christian'.

[randome]

96. Point. It's also a more innocuous symbol.

And most people who wear crosses are perfectly content to not wear one on occasion. It's not quite the same as 'drenching' oneself in symbology, IMO.

I suppose, in keeping with the initial theme of this thread, I should have added Your Mileage May Vary.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[LanternWaste]

99. Hence, the distinction lies only in the degree?

Hence, the distinction lies only in the degree of difference? If so, what then is the precise and objective measure between "occasion" and "drenching"?

[snooper2]

107. Well, I get offended every time I see Laura Ingram with that big fucking cross around her neck

[randome]

121. Nothing objective about it. Just my opinion.

But I also think it's why these groups draw more than their 'fair' share of discrimination. They want to be different from everyone else. They want to look different.

That's not at all my trying to excuse discrimination. It's only my acknowledgement that there will always be, within a large enough population, a group that seizes on the differences and discriminates based on that.

It's also not me trying to say "Conform!" I have nothing but respect for those who think outside the box. But conformity is the very definition of religious groups composed of members who all want to look pretty much the same.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[stone space]

143. How exactly does that work?

The clothing of some religious groups is intended to mark them as belonging to a certain religion. And that automatically makes the rest of us not of their religion.

My wife wears a crucifix around her neck at all times. Certainly, it reflects on her religion.

But how does it reflect on me as an atheist in any way?

I don't get it.

It's not about me.

It's just not. It has nothing to do with me.

[randome]

145. Already addressed in post #96 and forward.

A cross is an example of how secular the Western world has become. The Eastern world could use a hell of a lot more secularism, IMO. And as Shoulders of Giants points out in post #142.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[NM_Birder]

175. when "traditional clothes" are specifically meant

to be purposefully degrading, and isolation inducing, yes, yes I do think they are allowed to be ridiculed.

I'd be willing to bet you had nothing but good laughs at the expense of Mitt's "magic underwear". -or- have I misunderstood you, and you not only agree with the forcing of women to wear "traditional muslim clothes" as well as agree with the intended results of being forced to wear "traditional muslim clothes"? You also have respect the physical and emotional consequences that go along with the "traditional muslim clothes" ?

really ? your sense of morality agrees with the oppressive use of clothing as a means of basically creating women slavery ?

[randome]

176. I don't know why this didn't occur to me before.

There is a couple at my gym (I'm guessing brother and sister but who knows?), they wear shirts emblazoned with 'On Fire For Christ'. They hang around each other, taking 'turns' at two machines, thereby tying them up for others to use.

I can never envision treating either of them with anything other than politeness and respect. But I also doubt that I will ever have anything to say to them.

They are promoting their religion with their clothing and I find that, if not offensive, at least in poor taste. They want to exist in their own little bubble world. Fine. They can have it.

And Muslim clothing, as you point out, has a secondary purpose as well, in regards to women. Or maybe it's just 'traditional' to have women's faces hidden?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[NM_Birder]

177. "traditional muslim clothing", for women anyway... is not meant as a means to promote

the muslim faith. It is a means by which to compress the human spirit of a woman and isolate her from all things not allowed by her husband. slavery with the threat of mutilation or death if the rules of a hidden life behind "traditional muslim clothes" are not followed. It's interesting to see how many DUers, support the muslim right to oppress women in the name of a traditional religion, ........ the muslim faith - It's also "tradition" to kill a woman who was raped, or possibly even just in the same room alone with a man not her husband........ praise be to god, thru him all things are possible


I feel the same way about people wearing t-shirts promoting religion, as I do people wearing t-shirts with company slogans on them. The desire and result is the same, "pay attention to this and give it money".

[Rex]

22. Actually everytime you fill up your gas tank, the conservative base in Houston Texas thanks you.

Don't have to go overseas or involve Islam.

[samsingh]

26. what does that have to do with anything ? so does Texas, Canada, UK, ....

[Travis_0004]

27. My oil comes from canadian tar sands

[Pooka Fey]

58. Another OP proudly lowering the level of discourse on DU

[Agnosticsherbet]

59. 3 to 3.5 ours a day comutting on a bicycle is unacceptable.

as is 2.5 hours commuting by public transit.

And I am upset because not once have I received a "thank you for filling your tank" card from the Saudi's.

I suspect they are spending so much time sending thank you cards to Israel that they just don't have time.

Israel Becomes A Nation of Pedalers (Cycling Freaks)

[Nuclear Unicorn]

61. Sounds more like an argument for domestic oil production.

[jberryhill]

71. We import more oil by far from Canada than Saudi Arabia

[Kaleva]

72. The Canadians thank me.

[Renew Deal]

76. I ask the same question of people that use illegal drugs.

[F4lconF16]

137. Explain further, please. nt

[arcane1]

79. Are you an American citizen? The Saudis are our allies.

I don't own a car, and it's not because I disagree with Islam (which I do), it's because I disagree with using petroleum products.

If you own a car, you are contributing to the destruction of the biosphere. That's 1,000,000 times more important than a primitive, oppressive culture in SA.

[closeupready]

81. I don't understand your counterpoint. Can you explain?

You seem to be suggesting that you are okay with financially/materially supporting a fundamentalist Islamic regime, i.e., the KSA, because - as your logic seems to go - the biosphere is more important than civil rights.

There is no logic to that statement.

[arcane1]

83. It wasn't really meant as a counterpoint

But rather, to say that we support the Saudis in other ways than just by driving cars.

I'm not ok with supporting them AT ALL.

[closeupready]

85. Oh, okay - completely agree. In contrast with others, however, Islam is just another

religion to me. I know plenty of muslims who are 'normal'. And plenty of 'Christians' who are quite mentally ill and psychologically unhealthy.

[arcane1]

86. Agreed, on all counts n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

103. How do you think Shiites view your assertion that 'Islam' is a word meaning 'Sunni Saudi Arab'?

Isn't it actually sort of bigoted to claim that criticism of a government is the same as criticism of Islam? Last time I looked there were millions and millions of Muslims who are not Saudi nor even Arabic.
What a puzzling post. Are you one of those folks who thinks a person can be a raging homophobe and yet remain a liberal? I just don't get your whole assertion here.

[closeupready]

105. Your thoughts are scattered all over the place.

My OP was clear. Your attempts to obfuscate are unpersuasive.

[Bluenorthwest]

109. No, my questions are very clear. As is your resorting instantly to personal attack when questioned.

I am not even the first poster to express confusion over your OP. Nor am I the first to get a personal attack from you.

[closeupready]

111. I'm just not going to bicker with you. So carry on, if you wish,

but do so knowing I will not respond to any more of your posts in this thread.

Peace to you.

[hrmjustin]

104. In life there are many contradictions. And despite what some say here Islam is not terrible.

Neither is Christianity and other religions.

there is a point to be made that Islam is in desperate need of a reformation as other religions need reform.
we mudt stamp out all forms of bigotry that come from religion. Things like h a tred of women and lgbt people.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. In a religious context, 'terrible' has several connatations, Psalm 47, verse 2 in the KJV says:

"For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth." In this sense of the word, 'terrible' means formidable, powerful, and more modern translations will use 'awesome' in the Bible where KJV uses 'terrible'. I think 'awesome' in current use tends to mean 'really good' rather than 'inspiring awe' and so it's not a great choice really. Too 'Bill and Ted'.
Current use of 'terribly' includes being used to mean 'very' or 'extremely' as in 'terribly long lines for the snack bar', which means the lines are really long, not that they are perilous or evil, just big.
I thought it might be worth a moment with the actual religious use of the word 'terrible' in a thread about religions being terrible. Perhaps it is ironic that people are insulted that a religion is called terrible when God is called terrible in the Bible. If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for the Godly.

I kid. But also, that which has the power to take human life is formidable, governments and religions and the two together very often take lives in wars and under dubious laws. This is not an aspect of a small, fuzzy entity, but of a huge, powerful entity.
So I would not say flatly 'religion is terrible' in the sense that airplane food is terrible, but to say religions are terrible great things in the sense that the Bible says the Lord most high is terrible seems pretty spot on to me.

[hrmjustin]

119. Thats an interesting and fair assessment.

[MADem]

108. What a strange thread. First, it pre-supposes that we are all bigots. Second, it postulates that

Islam is "horrible" -- so that's flame bait, right there. And third, it makes the huge erroneous leap that the gasoline that fuels our cars comes from Saudi Arabia, when it doesn't. And finally, it assumes that we all work and we're not walking or biking to our jobs.

What a FAIL these suppositions are, on so many levels.

The poster hasn't kept up with the world oil market, and is stirring the pot with a series of inaccurate suppositions about what we think, how we feel, and how we manage our personal lives.

DU is supposed to be a fun and positive place. I don't think this thread measures up to that standard at all.

[Pacifist Patriot]

134. I'm flabbergasted.

It fails in so many ways.

[Marr]

118. I don't understand how liberals can defend Islam today.

In much of the world, the culture is dominated by very conservative, religious ideals and people who would be kept far from any levers of power in more liberal, western nations. Gays, women, ethnic and religious minorities they are not well treated. The Islamic world makes our most bigoted areas look like San Francisco by comparison. Defending Islam generally today is, imho, like looking at the reddest of red states and saying Christianity has nothing to do with it, and hey, that bigoted preacher is just expressing his faith.

As a liberal US citizen, I feel like the only people I can conscientiously side with here are the gays, women, ethnic/religious minorities, etc. of the Islamic world.

[closeupready]

122. Well, how many muslims here in the US do you know?

Assuming you are in the US.

??

[Marr]

136. Ten or so... mostly Turks. Why? /nt

[cpwm17]

138. You're conflating Muslim with Islam

Last edited Sat Mar 7, 2015, 09:25 AM - Edit history (1)

A Muslim is a human being. Islam is a religion. Muslims generally are decent people, like most everybody else in this world. I see no reason to like Islam. It's a religion and it holds humanity back – the same with Judaism and Christianity. All religions are based on myths.

Usually it's the bigots that make this mistake and use their excessive hatred of Islam as an excuse to hate Muslims. Now that's bigotry, and usually it's cover for racism. Often these same people have a difficult time understanding why our aggressive wars against Muslims are evil and wrong, but they then blame Muslims for allegedly being so violent. These bigots aren't self-aware.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

125. "Islam is horrible" is not the same thing as "I want Muslims to suffer".

As a fan of gay rights, women's rights, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, etc, I think that Islam as interpreted by a large majority (by no means all) of its followers is pretty horrible.

That absolutely doesn't mean that I want them to suffer.

If I thought that not buying petrol would make life better for the Saudis in some way, I'd probably still do it, but it would at least be a moral dilemma.

But "I think that the religious/political/philosophical/moral views of these people are appalling" and "I want these people to be poorer and have worse lives" are absolutely not the same thing, and neither implies the other.

[FLPanhandle]

132. I think all religions are horrible, what do you suggest I do?

I look forward to your list of what I can get by without.

[MellowDem]

133. Islam is explicitly bigoted...

right in its texts. Calling it horrible isn't bigotry, Islam is an idea.

The amount of religious privilege on DU is depressing to behold.

[Shoulders of Giants]

142. Read the Koran, it is terrible.

It is full of every antigay, women, human, etc thing you can imagine. But then again so is the Bible. Ultimately secularism is what promotes human rights, not religiosity. Most western secular democracies are good because they stopped following the Bible (and only claimed to without actually knowing the terrible stuff that's inside of it). In the Christian world, areas that most follow the Bible (such as the American south) tend to be the most regressive. If Islamic countries become more secular, they will improve as well. There are actually examples of this in some Muslim Majority countries like Turkey, Jordan, and Kuwait, but these countries still aren't secular enough.


I've never liked being called a bigot for calling out the evils in religion. That's because I don't pick a side (I'm an atheist) and call them all out. However, if the Koran is to be followed word for word (in the way the Bible used to be in what we call "the dark ages&quot , then it would be an enemy of liberalism. It's just a simple fact. Before you defend Islam, I suggest you read the Koran cover to cover, and you will see that as an idea, it's not worth defending.


Also I'd like to point out if the weather is nice enough, I sometimes bike or walk to work or nearby stores. But I live in the midwest, and things are too spread out and the public transportation is awful. However, I have a car with great MPG (at least for the price I paid, I can't afford the ones that get 40+ MPG), and I don't have kids largely for environmental reason (and selfish reasons I do admit as well). So I hope I'm doing my part.

[99Forever]

147. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read this morning.

People who don't accept religion as a positive thing shouldn't drive? That's a special kind of stupid thought.

[99Forever]

149. Why?

Don't recollect ever having taken that ridiculous position. Why would I argue for it? I prefer we make moving away from using fossil fuels at all as quickly as possible, a top priority.

[99Forever]

151. You replied to MY post.

Stupid me thought it was directed to me.

[SidDithers]

152. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?...

Sid

[pintobean]

155. I thought the same thing.

The damnedest thing - I clicked on this thread a few minutes ago and it showed that I had recced it. I don't remember reccing it, and don't know why I would. So, I unrecced it, bringing the number to four. Then, I clicked to see who did rec it and there were only two names there. I went back to the thread and it still said four recs. I checked again and there were four names, but the two I had seen before weren't included.

Not that it matters, I just thought it was weird.

[Buzz Clik]

154. Curious: "We have more oil reserves in the US than we need. We could only use US oil and be fine.."

Care to debate that?

(NOTE: This comment is not directed to the author of the OP)

[oneshooter]

156. Because the traffic is really bad.

[NaturalHigh]

157. Because I work nine miles out in the country...

and I would be run over in the dark the first day I tried.

[SidDithers]

164. Islam is wonderful!!...

Unless you're gay.

Or a woman.

Or a cartoonist.

Sid

[jobycom]

178. A lesbian, an atheist, and two Muslim women walked into a restaurant.

Actually, not a joke. A month ago I attended a wedding party for two Muslim friends--one basically a relative of mine. We sat at a table in Irving, Texas, in sight of the mosque where they were married. All of the wait staff were Muslim, and several of them joined the party from time to time.

So, the lesbian is the mother of the Muslim groom. The bride, wearing her hijab, is half Arab and half Venezuelan, and was raised in the UAE. She is working on her PhD in chemistry (UAE is footing the bill--wouldn't it be nice if the US was that civilized?). She has decided to call the lesbian mother "Mom," which makes it seem like her lesbianism isn't an issue. The bridesmaid, also in her hijab, is from Saudi Arabia, and is planning to go back when she and her husband both finish their PhD because they find the US too oppressive and parochial. One of the servers who kept interacting was a woman from Jordan working on her graduate degree, but she didn't say whether it was a Masters or PhD.

No one's life was threatened. No one killed a cartoonist. The opinion of the atheist (me) was sought and respected. The women, all wearing hijabi, were not stoned for talking to men. None of them were in danger in their countries for having US degrees.

The problem in this nation is that we are a bunch of bigots who believe we are best personified by the handful of great, beautiful people who were born here, whereas every other nation and culture is best personified by their most horrible actions and attitudes. Three women a day are murdered in the US in honor killings (that we clean up by calling domestic violence), yet we blame the entire religion of Islam for the handful of honor killings that happen in a few Muslim nations (even though most Muslims condemn them). Women are paid a fraction of what men are paid in this country for the same work men do. Our government is continually restricting the rights of women to equal medical care in this nation. Women in this country who run for president are called all sorts of vile and borderline sexist names even by their own party, whereas Muslim democracies have elected women as their leaders. Gay and transgender people are denied equal rights in this country, and are murdered at alarming numbers in this country. Someone in this country has introduced a ballot initiative in California calling for the execution of all gays and lesbians. Minorities in this country are put in prison at rates three times or more higher than white people even when evidence shows they are less likely to commit the crimes they are imprisoned for than white people. They are executed at even higher percentages, even though most people eligible for the death penalty are white.

And while I'm not so sure how many of our military's victims were cartoonists, I do know that over a thousand innocent bystanders have been killed by US drones trying to kill a handful of people we think might one day possibly become a threat to the US.

So until the US has some cred when it comes to gays, women, murdering people who don't deserve to die, or any other human rights issue, I'm going to avoid stereotyping billions of people around the world that I don't know based on what corporate owned media sources and politicians want me to believe while they are trying to convince me to pay for another war. (And I do know quite a few Muslims from around the world, and none of them fit the stereotypes we are always fed).

[SidDithers]

179. Religious moderates provide cover for religious extremists. To that I say...

Sid

[jobycom]

180. The illusion of religious extremism provides excuses for bigots.

Take Charlie Hebdo as an example. They print cartoons that mock an oppressed, voiceless minority in France and pretend it's some free speech issue, even though months before they had fired a writer for a work considered anti-Semitic. When .0000000000001% of those being targeted react in a horrific way, the magazine and half the world takes that as an excuse to rerun the very cartoons that mocked the oppressed minorities the first time, ostensibly to show the killers that Charlie Hebdo would not bow.

But bow to who? They were championing the majority opinion and backed by the government, so they were hardly rebels. The people who attacked them were dead. The only people they were sending any message to were the 99.9999999999% of the oppressed minority that had been attacked by them in the first place and who had refused to retaliate, and the only message was "We still hate all of you." In short, they were bigots who used the horrific crimes against them to justify greater bigotry.

There are many cartoons this nation would not accept. If I drew a picture of Barack Obama explicitly giving a naked and erect Jesus Christ a blow job, several groups would be offended, and government would censure them for "obscenity". If I drew a picture of Barack Obama with exaggerated racial features eating watermelon while masturbating to a National Geographic with naked tribal pictures from Kenya on the cover, a completely different subset of US citizens would be outraged, and again the government would get involved.

But if I'm a French magazine who draws pictures EVERY BIT as offensive to Muslim ideas of obscenity, the government supports the magazine and the world tells those offended to "get over it."

We have our limits in the west. We have our sacred cows you can't mock. You can't deny the Holocaust. You can't portray graphic or explicit sex. You can't mock phenotypes. Those of us at the top of the privilege hierarchy find it easy to criticize those at the bottom. Which is exactly what racism is.

But until we have a society that has some right to brag about our own human rights record, we are hypocrites attacking others'.

[SidDithers]

181. Religion, at it's core, is bigotry...nt

Sid

[Lancero]

182. Some Religions

[jobycom]

183. Nah. It's an excuse bigots use, but it isn't bigotry. Bigots can use anything as an excuse.

Just because bigots say their religion supports them doesn't mean that the religion is the source of their bigotry. Jimmy Carter, MLK, Ghandi, Jesus, Muhammad, and on and on, were religious and used their beliefs to preach peace, love, equality, charity, etc. Others use the same belief to preach bigotry, but that's about the person, not the religion.

Bigotry is when you judge a whole group of people, or judge the collective of that group, as inferior to oneself based on a collective assumption. Their skin tone, their language, their national origin, and their religious background are the classic excuses. Racism is when you have the power to enforce that bigotry, either with government or societal pressures and customs.

[ileus]

168. Who are you talking to?

Funny how those holier than thou folks can always recommend you walk or bike to work yet have zero idea where you live, what you do, or if you have a family.

[NM_Birder]

172. Big coal and big oil thank you for the

condescending waste of electrical power to look down your nose and call people bigots.
The Koch brothers will be sure and send to a Christmas card.