Berlin Alarmed by Aggressive NATO Stance on Ukraine

[JackRiddler]

Source: Der Spiegel (English edition), March 6, 2015.

(...)

On that same day, General Philip Breedlove, the top NATO commander in Europe, stepped before the press in Washington. Putin, the 59-year-old said, had once again "upped the ante" in eastern Ukraine -- with "well over a thousand combat vehicles, Russian combat forces, some of their most sophisticated air defense, battalions of artillery" having been sent to the Donbass. "What is clear," Breedlove said, "is that right now, it is not getting better. It is getting worse every day."

German leaders in Berlin were stunned. They didn't understand what Breedlove was talking about. And it wasn't the first time. Once again, the German government, supported by intelligence gathered by the Bundesnachrichtendienst (BND), Germany's foreign intelligence agency, did not share the view of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander Europe (SACEUR).

The pattern has become a familiar one. For months, Breedlove has been commenting on Russian activities in eastern Ukraine, speaking of troop advances on the border, the amassing of munitions and alleged columns of Russian tanks. Over and over again, Breedlove's numbers have been significantly higher than those in the possession of America's NATO allies in Europe. As such, he is playing directly into the hands of the hardliners in the US Congress and in NATO.

The German government is alarmed. Are the Americans trying to thwart European efforts at mediation led by Chancellor Angela Merkel? Sources in the Chancellery have referred to Breedlove's comments as "dangerous propaganda." Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier even found it necessary recently to bring up Breedlove's comments with NATO General Secretary Jens Stoltenberg.

Read more: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/germany-concerned-about-aggressive-nato-stance-on-ukraine-a-1022193.html


Details the German government's rift with the hardliners within the U.S. government and NATO, like Nuland and Breedlove, who are massively exaggerating (or fabricating) Russian state intervention in the Ukraine. While Germany works to negotiate a peace, this narrow faction are going all-in for the Kiev government and driving toward a confrontation with Moscow. This has Germans and Europeans alarmed, and the appearance of such a piece in Der Spiegel of all places is very big news.

[Fred Sanders]

1. General Breedlove is Victoria Nuland's willing war hawk lackey...together they incompetently advised Kiev....

And Obama let them.

[JackRiddler]

2. Enabled, more like.

There's no lack of will on Kiev's part. They're all for starting World War III. Maybe they'll give Poroshenko a speech to Congress?

[Fred Sanders]

3. Poroshenko is no Bibi, speech wise or Prophecy-wise. Otherwise cut from the same cheap cloth. Enabled is accurate.

Obama will never arm Kiev, to repeat.....and a few trusted "military advisors" in the collapsed Kiev military/militia is a good idea.....

[sabrina 1]

6. Poroshenko is a gate keeper for the Oligarchs. He's there when they need him!

[jakeXT]

15. Another one ? ... Poroshenko: Ukraine's Battle with Russia Is 'America's War Too'

http://news.yahoo.com/poroshenko-ukraines-battle-russia-americas-war-too-153608760.html

[malaise]

19. One part of Obama's Selma speech that was very troubling

was the Maidan reference.
Human lives have no meaning to the neo-con hawks.

[Oilwellian]

4. Germany is one of the few reporting the truth in Ukraine

K&R

[Fred Sanders]

5. The Guardian has a good grip on the situation, far removed from the hysterical American media.

[newthinking]

13. The Guardian is a mixed bag. They allow some guest articles that are good but their

regular reporters printed some of the worst reporting.

Now if you read in the comments and can work through the arguing there is actually some very informed people there.

[sabrina 1]

7. The neocons are still running the war machine here. Which is why we are getting nothing but the same

old propaganda we got on Iraq. They so want a war with Russia AND Iran AND Syria.

Germany isn't really the only country telling the truth about Ukraine. I think people are on to the neocons pretty much universally.

Nuland is a neocon, married to one of the signers of the PNAC and I think they are undermining the president's foreign policies of attempting to resolve issues peacefully.

They did it in Syrian, Libya, and they were caught doing it with Iran recently.

Until they are out of our government, out of our Foreign Policy, there will be constant propaganda leading to war.

[malaise]

20. The Russians and Germans understand the meaning of war

and loss of life.

[sadoldgirl]

8. Merkel is right.

I hope that these people do not speak for Obama.

I think it is high time that the CIA and this kind of general
remembers that the US alone is NOT all of NATO. I believe
NATO has quite a lot of other members, who might not
like this war inducing attitude.

However, our military sits lazily around and so must
need to see some action, eh?

[BillZBubb]

9. Maybe this is a "good cop, bad cop" situation.

[JackRiddler]

10. Who's being questioned?

[BillZBubb]

31. Putin is being pressured.

[JackRiddler]

32. Apparently not.

German government now seems to think the pressure needs to be applied on Kiev and its neocon enablers, like Nuland & Breedlove.

In any case, the cease-fire holds for now. We can all hope.

[BillZBubb]

33. You've got it backwards.

The pressure did work. Putin was forced to get his proxies in Ukraine to stand down. Merkel played the good cop and gave Putin a way to save face. Merkel has also stated that if things return to the way they were, Putin, not Kiev, would face more sanctions.

[JackRiddler]

34. Interesting view. I have a different one.

Your version is not impossible.

What I see right now, however, is this:

1) The Donbass fighters won a military victory against Kiev's forces.

2) They are not proxies (as in "invented by Moscow&quot but an indigenous resistance of Russian-speaking Ukrainians that gets support from Russians privately, and from the Moscow government. Just like NATO supports Kiev and supported the coup last year. The difference being that the war has caused one million mainly Russian-speaking Ukrainians to flee into Russia, where their presence gets Russian-Russians angry about the situation, and where they are doubtless working to gain support.

3) Defining #2 correctly does not mean one supports or opposes any of these sides.*

4) Kiev was pressured at least as much as Putin to effect a ceasefire, since they were losing ground and hoping to make up for it by escalation and conscription.

5) Breedlove, Nuland and Kiev are trying to undermine it with fabrications about a Russian state military "invasion," and have been fabricating similar stories for many months without the appearance of proof (as if an actual "invasion" could be hidden).

6) The German government doesn't like #5 and is using Der Spiegel to expose their views on it openly.

7) The German strategy would seem wise for Kiev instead of trying their hand at conscription and escalation.

8) I hope we can agree that the ceasefire must hold!

* Personally, I'd have been for Maidan if it hadn't been hijacked by nationalists bent on starting a fight with Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Nazis provide soldateska for the Kiev side, but Russian-Russian extremists do the same for the Donbass side. I can't imagine I'd want to run into either paramilitary as a civilian, such formations tend to be barbaric. The Kiev official army, meanwhile, has engaged in some horrific shelling of civilian areas, a lot more of it than the other side.

[CentralMass]

11. Germany is the largest importer of natural gas from Russia. I would suggest this inluences

their stance on the Ukraine situation.

[MattSh]

14. I would suggest memories of WW2 ...

are a more likely influence.

[CentralMass]

18. Really ? In what way ? Does it remind them of their own behavior?

Last edited Sun Mar 8, 2015, 09:32 AM - Edit history (1)

Germany is heavily dependent on Russia for it energy sources.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/08/31/which-country-depends-most-heavily-on-russian-gas/14758961/

"German reliance on Russia
Germany relies on imports to supply more than 70% of its domestic energy demand, with Russia alone representing a quarter of the country's imports of natural gas, oil, and coal. According to the International Energy Agency, Russia supplies about 38% of German gas imports, 35% of oil imports, and 25% of coal imports.

That dependence makes Germany particularly vulnerable to any supply disruptions that prevent Russian gas from flowing across its borders. It's not surprising, then, that Chancellor Angela Merkel has been especially circumspect in her dealings with Vladimir Putin; she knows that Russia has the upper hand. If Russian supplies were cut off for any number of reasons, Germany has only three options left, none of them particularly attractive."

As mentioned earlier, they are Russia's biggest importer of natural gas.

[HereSince1628]

21. I could be both...it could include more

War in the Ukraine will produce refugees, too. Many would try to get to Germany...delivering service to them would not be cheap.

Moreover, there are pro-Russian enclaves in places other than Ukraine. The re-consolidation of those enclaves into the Russian Federation could mean a war much larger than central Ukraine. Anxiety about destabilizing a north south axis of countries from Estonia through Serbia might be part of Germany's concern.

The problems of war on that scale would be costly and would fall heavily on Germany.

[JackRiddler]

24. War in the Ukraine has produced refugees.

More than a million have fled... into Russia! This tragedy is one of the most important realities that the Western mostly pro-war coverage has obscured. It provides the context for aid to the Donbass separatists out of Russia (private and state). Kiev's attack on the Russian minority immediately after the coup and refusal to allow a federal solution has meant thousands of deaths and a couple of million displaced people. The regime may implode soon, because deputizing international neo-Nazi shock troops is not enough. They have now imposed conscription, how many people are going to want to die for this bullshit? All of this need not have happened. At this point, the next presidential election would have been a couple of months away.

[JackRiddler]

30. The U.S. is the largest producer of war gear in the world.

I would suggest this may be a reason why Nuland and Breedlove tell such outrageous lies with such consistency, despite the chance that these accusations of "invasion" could set off a wider conflict. Obviously they don't give a shit.

Russian natural gas running through the Ukraine to Germany is, by the way, one of the obvious reasons why RUSSIA would not be interested in a continuing war in the Ukraine. Do you read your own stuff? Do you understand the implications?

[Comrade Grumpy]

12. Uh, yep.

[jakeXT]

16. When they reopened the Oktoberfest bombing investigation before Hebdo,

I knew they were pushing back.

Date 11.12.2014

German prosecutors re-open probe into deadly 1980 Okoberfest attack

German prosecutors have announced that they are reopening an investigation into a deadly far-right attack on Munich's Oktoberfest more than three decades ago. This came after a new witness surfaced.

http://www.dw.de/german-prosecutors-re-open-probe-into-deadly-1980-okoberfest-attack/a-18123766

[jakeXT]

17. U.S. plan to train Ukraine national guard 'on hold'

(Reuters) - A U.S. plan to train Ukrainian national guard troops is "on hold" pending implementation of a ceasefire deal between government troops and Russian-backed rebels, a spokesman for U.S. forces in Europe said on Friday.

The training mission, first announced in August last year, had been due to start this month. One battalion of U.S. soldiers is due to train three Ukrainian National Guard battalions.

A U.S. military official, speaking to Reuters on Friday on condition of anonymity, said the training mission had not yet been finalised.

Later on Friday, a spokesman for U.S. forces in Europe, confirmed the delay in a statement and said: "The U.S. government would like to see the Minsk agreement fulfilled."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/06/us-usa-ukraine-military-idUSKBN0M21LW20150306

[TheKentuckian]

22. Time to leave NATO there is no upside for the US and we make the organization more unstable.

[JackRiddler]

23. Where are the World War III supporters?

Their repertoire is very limited, so I guess they stay out of threads where they can't howl "RT!1!!" or "Putin Lover!!!"

[NuclearDem]

26. Funny, because appeasement among other things led to the last world war.

Plenty of people engaged in that tried and true practice. The rest are off renegotiating Molotov-Ribbentrop.

[JackRiddler]

27. If you mean appeasement by the likes of Henry Ford...

not to mention Montagu, Thyssen, DuPont et al. and all the other industrialists and bankers who greeted and supported the rise of Hitler, not just in Germany but in the U.S., Britain and elsewhere, then yeah, you've got a pretty good case there.

If you're talking about how companies like Ford, General Motors, IBM, Standard Oil, Kodak et al. jumped to do business with the Nazi dictatorship, and to invest in Germany, then yeah appeasement is very bad!

But I guess that kind of thing goes into your "among other things" category.

Sorry if history can't be reduced to stock examples. It must be so easy to live within a mindset wherein everyone's either a "Hitler" or a "Chamberlain" (or your preferred images of them) and you're with the small number of courageous Churchills.

[NuclearDem]

28. Yes, I would agree.

That's why I'm in favor of economic sanctions against Russia and consequently discouraging companies from doing business with them.

But since countries like Germany depend on Russian natural gas for energy (thanks in no small part to the anti-nuclear idiots destroying their energy independence), they're willing to simply sweep this blatant aggression under the rug.

Putin was very clearly not done after Georgia, and he's not going to be done after Ukraine if the appeasers have their way.

[JackRiddler]

29. Okay thanks...

We're on different tracks here with little to share, really.

1) Germany is the only country on the planet that responded intelligently to the Fukushima disaster. Not even Japan could manage to free itself.

2) As part of the same intelligent planning, Germany leads and will continue to lead the world in renewable energy technologies, and in making the necessary energy transition.

3) The United States economy need not depend on the military industrial complex let alone the war mongering minority within it, but they are powerful. They're happy to incite aggressions and to exploit and exacerbate divisions, which is exactly what they did by backing the coup d'etat in Kiev and standing by the resulting regime even when it resorted to attacking the Russian population, prompting an inevitable response from the authoritarian but unfortunately very popular regime in Moscow.

Painting Putin as a "Hitler" is cheap distraction. The intelligent approach to Russia is not "appeasement" but detente. Moscow is defending its existing sphere against perceived incursions, and has little interest in territorial expansion (precisely for one of the factors you cite: doing business with Europe is worth more than some coal mines in Donbass).

This is an American politics board. The question is what U.S. policy should be. I say put the pressure on Kiev to settle this insanity through a federal solution and never again use soldiers and Nazi mercenaries to murder Ukrainian citizens on Ukrainian soil. Certainly they should receive no arms or military aid.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. So should the rest of Europe and America.

[JackRiddler]

35. Russia's supposed interests in war.

Of all the points brought up by the apologists for the Kiev war and the U.S. role in it, "Russia's natural gas interests" is the strangest for being so obviously illogical.

Russia's interest in gas is, of course, to have it flow through the Ukraine to Germany. That was coming along nicely, then Ukraine fell apart, endangering the trade, and raising the specter of sanctions.

So gas, of course, is one of the reasons Russia has an interest in peace. The even bigger one is the one million refugees they've now had to take in!

Do the Kiev-U.S. apologists understand this? Why do they bring up gas as a reason for war?!

America's gas interest, on the other hand - or I should say, the gas interest of some Americans - plays a minor role among the supporters of confrontation. Hunter Biden, vice president's son, hired by a firm looking to start fracking in the Ukraine.

After the coup, the new Kiev government included the extreme national right and deputized avowed Nazis as actual shock troops - they're still in the field. They are the ones who then attacked a vulnerable minority, a part of which then seceded (in an "minority-majority" area where the people had always wanted to go with Russia).

Russia has no interest in absorbing other parts of Ukraine - hell, why didn't they do so already? This would have been over. The Donbass separatists have already won the territory on the ground.

Among the reasons the German government has had enough of Breedlove & Nuland's propaganda.