Should the US military pull out of Afghanistan or stay to protect females from the Taliban?

[marym625]

Last edited Sun Mar 8, 2015, 10:49 AM - Edit history (1)

Today is International Women's Day


The Feminist Majority is calling for US troops to remain in Afghanistan to protect women and girls from the Taliban. The strides made for females in Afghanistan are amazing. Without continued support from the US military, the chances are fairly good that the improvements made will quickly end.

I am confused on this. I don't think we should stay. But I also don't want females in Afghanistan to suffer the horrors they have in the past.

If you want to sign the petition, it's in the email pasted below.

I would like your thoughts on this. Thank you.

Regardless, let's stand for women today and keep DU celebrating our strong, brave women and pay great attention to what is desperately in need of improvement.



Dear feminist activist,

Today is International Women's Day, which is a day we call attention not only to the achievements of women but to the fight for equality around the world. The Feminist Majority has been standing shoulder-to-shoulder with Afghan women and girls in the fight against Taliban oppression for 18 years. Since the fall of the Taliban regime in 2001, many Afghan women and girls are going to school, have entered the paid workforce, and have benefited from a significantly reduced maternal mortality rate. But the Taliban has not gone entirely away and is threatening constantly women and girls' advancement and security. We must remain shoulder-to-shoulder with Afghan women and girls.

Many Afghan women leaders as well as ordinary Afghans are saying their number one concern is security, and they want the remaining U.S. support troops to stay. We support the Afghan women's groups concerns. This is no time to leave Afghanistan completely when women and girls are making progress and the new unity government, pledged to women's empowerment, is trying to move forward.

Please urge President Obama, Secretary Kerry, and Congress to support postponement or extension of the US timeline for removing support troops from Afghanistan.

http://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/1269/p/dia/action3/common/public/?action_KEY=11000

President Obama is right now reviewing his decision to withdraw 5,000 U.S. troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2015 and ALL troops by the end of 2016. Afghan women and girls have come too far to be turned back now. If the Taliban returns, too many of the women who have gone to work and school and who have taken on leadership in government or in the several hundred established Afghan women's groups, will be killed. We must stand shoulder-to-shoulder with these courageous women.

This International Women's Day, tell President Obama, Secretary Kerry, and Congress that the U.S. must not abandon Afghan women and girls who need and want security. Let’s help Afghan women protect the gains they have won.

For women's lives and equality,


Eleanor Smeal
President, Feminist Majority

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

1. What an excellent way to illustrate why President Obama's job is not so easy. If we leave

Afghanistan, thousands of women suffer.

If we stay, people suffer.

No matter what Obama does, the American Taliban aka TeaParTY will hate him and criticize him.

I think this post, this thread is TERRIBLY IMPORTANT

What do you people think???

[marym625]

2. I wish people would respond.

I greatly appreciate your responding.

I don't think anyone here ever said President Obama's job is easy. I truly don't know what to think here. It's a catch 22.

The decision has been made, that leaving is more important than staying to protect the females in Afghanistan. Maybe it is the correct choice. I would like to know why it is. Or if people agree it is.

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

3. Obama's predicament is what this is about though, when you put him in the middle of

rabid racist pukes, aka TeaParTY and a progressive side that is anti intervention, what is he to do?

I dont know the answer, I do know this is a very important issue and I dont know why people arent responding.

[marym625]

5. He has already decided.

I didn't put him there. Well, I voted for him so in that sense I did. But he wanted the job. He's a million times smarter than I so I trust in this situation, he's done the right thing. Or, after reading the petition he will let us know why his decision in this regard, or maybe change his mind.

It is such an important thing, to continue to protect these women and girls.

I am thinking it's the title of the post. I am going to post another with a link to this. I will use the question as the title.

Thank you so much!

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

6. What exactly has he decided, remind me, timeline etc.

This would enhance the conversation, maybe it is in the link but I cant read it all now.

[marym625]

8. The time line for pulling out of Afghanistan is set.

It is in the post somewhere. That's why the petition, to change the time table for pulling out

[marym625]

9. my bad

I read it wrong. Partly because I thought I read elsewhere that the time was set. (I am going to have to look that up when I can see better. I swear it was set before)

Here's what was said in the OP

President Obama is right now reviewing his decision to withdraw 5,000 U.S. troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2015 and ALL troops by the end of 2016. Afghan women and girls have come too far to be turned back now. If the Taliban returns, too many of the women who have gone to work and school and who have taken on leadership in government or in the several hundred established Afghan women's groups, will be killed. We must stand shoulder-to-shoulder with these courageous women. 

[JonLP24]

35. It is interesting how US troop numbers are tied into whether US is still there or not

or what is it I'm trying to say. I'm remembering late Iraq as well, it certainly indicates a scaling back but I saw for myself as a US troop that the military is just a cog in the machine, the operation is dominated by private defense contractors. The military certainly plays a key role but you noticed civilian sides & military sides but little intermingling of the two. They had semi-trucks too which was my job overseas, while they were very nice vehicles I trusted the thickness of our armor & windows more. Military doesn't really care if a vehicle has cosmetic appeal.

People may not realize but whoever runs the war machine apparently doesn't trust the military to guard military bases, no all that stuff is handled by contractors. The towers, the perimeter all private security guards I had no idea, I was imaging a lot of Field training exercise type of details. They wear the type of gear & weapons they want to wear while my unit spends an entire year trying to correct a trailer yard of trailers that were hardly ever used. It was pretty rare when you needed to replace a trailer, oh god all the spray painting re-spray painting backing trailers "dress, right, dress". However, many things that would have been handled entirely by the military have many things taken care of for them mainly at the expense of imported migrant workers.

The status of war or whatever the operation is how many contractors are there or if more are coming in or they are leaving in comparable numbers (contractors will always be the last ones to leave) since they pretty much run the show. The top flight military command centers are certainly key players but contractors have their own thing going on while the military does a lot of the outside the wire fighting but a lot of what the contractors do or when they do it isn't known, it is kept very separate of each other -- hard to describe it. The military has a pretty effective criminal justice system within itself which is something that really hold whatever it is the contractors are trying to do since the break every US labor laws in the process of whatever it is.

I bet some 1920s Wall-Street bankers wish they thought of this in time for WW2.

[marym625]

38. +100

Great post. Love the last line.

Thanks for this.

[marym625]

26. found it.

President Obama, declaring that it was “time to turn the page on a decade in which so much of our foreign policy was focused on the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq,” announced on Tuesday that he planned to withdraw the last American troops from Afghanistan by the end of 2016.[/div

Here's the whole article

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/05/28/world/asia/us-to-complete-afghan-pullout-by-end-of-2016-obama-to-say.html?_r=0&referrer=

[Warpy]

33. In Afghanistan before the Russians wrecked the country and did nothing to rebuild

the cities were like cities nearly everywhere, modern places where women wore western clothing, were educated, and had jobs. In the countryside, they were the property of first their fathers, then their brothers, then their husbands, and finally their sons, hidden away in the least humane clothing imaginable. It's been that way for centuries, possibly millennia.

If we leave the country with a viable government at all, even with the Taliban as part of it, the cities will probably remain islands of relative sanity for women and the rural areas will be the nightmare they've always been.

The country is ungovernable by a colonial power, this much we know beyond a shadow of a doubt, given that police and military forces change sides on whims and that nothing else is quite what it seems to be, either. It is very likely ungovernable by any central government.

Finally, it is not our country and we don't really belong there. We have done our best to repair a lot of the damage done in the past 35 years. We are leaving it better than we found it, something that can't be said of other invaders. Perhaps, in time, the rural people will be less cruel to women. Just don't bet on it whether or not we stay.

Remember that the Taliban were welcomed after the Russians left because the country was in total chaos. They promised stability and delivered corruption and a massive war against women. They won't be welcomed back again because the country is not in chaos and people remember what they actually delivered. They will, however, be a part of the legislative body.

We need to realize we've done what we could there. The rest is up to them and they will likely regress, at least in the short term, as a reaction against even benevolent colonialism (and we haven't been totally benevolent). We're not leaving the same mess the Russians and likely most other invaders did. We've given them a chance and it's time to go.

[marym625]

40. Well said

Thank you for this.

[socialist_n_TN]

4. I think the Kurdish women of the PPK have an answer......

Ask ISIS about them in Syria. Sometimes the only answer is armed SELF defense.

[marym625]

7. Do you believe that is possible for women in Afghanistan?

[socialist_n_TN]

18. Well, the Kurdish women are in the very same area of the world.....

But the choice of keeping Americans there or having the Taliban take over are NOT the only choices. And are American troops more disruptive than women's self defense forces? That's the calculation.

And BTW, International Women's Day is a celebration of MILITANT strike action by women workers, at first in the USA and then other places in the world. Remember that's MILITANT strike action. The beginning strike that overthrew the Tsar in Russia in February 1917 (old calendar/ March 8th new calendar) was began by women textile workers. Most of the time it's going to take militant self-defense actions and NOT waiting on someone to save you.

[marym625]

21. Great points

Thank you.

The title of the article I posted was International Women's Day. I just copied and pasted.

I really appreciate your thoughts on this. Intellectually, I agree. Working on the heartstrings

[Marrah_G]

77. The difference is that the kurdish men allow the women to have weapons

That isn't the case in Afghanistan. Also the Kurdish women were not pointing the weapons at the Kurdish men....

[Lurks Often]

10. People are very quick to say "We need to leave country such and such NOW!!"

Without the slightest bit of consideration for the consequences of what would happen after we left.

Afghanistan is certainly one example, if we leave now, it is very likely millions of women and female children will revert to essentially being the property of religious extremists.

I remember the outcry here on DU among many when Boko Harum kidnapped 276 female school children last April that the U.S. should do something. If we should do something for 276 female school children, we sure as hell should do something for the millions of females in Afghanistan.

[marym625]

11. Thank you for your thoughts

The ramifications to both the US military and the Afghanistan people has to be weighed. We also need to look at what we've agreed to with the Afghanistan government.

But, as you said, how do we leave with a probability of so many women being persecuted? Persecuted for receiving an education and whatever else the Taliban may decide is worth killing, or even worse.

Those poor girls taken by Boko Haram are now being used as suicide bombers. I tried a couple times to bring attention to this fact but received little response.

Thank you for your thoughts. I greatly appreciate it

[TwilightGardener]

12. We have a fairly small presence in Afghanistan, even with

suspending the current withdrawal plans indefinitely. It wouldn't be near enough to have any effect on a serious Taliban resurgence unless it was just a tripwire to building our forces back up there again. We weren't supposed to be there forever fighting the Taliban, anyway. The women's-oppression issue is just not a reason for us to stay, in and of itself--no American troop bloodshed to protect another country's women, to put it simply. We're there for cold, calculated strategic interests and nothing more, and we should leave when it's stable enough to do so.

[Lurks Often]

15. I never believed we should stay in Afghanistan forever

but neither do I believe we should leave based on some arbitrary calender date either.

I am also very glad I'm not the one who has to make that decision, any U.S. President ends up making decisions that will result in people dying, either by choosing to assist or be deciding that it isn't in the bet interests to assist.

It's one of those reasons that every U.S. President looked far worse leaving office then their actual age would suggest.

[The2ndWheel]

13. This is why the US spends so much on the military

While all these other countries in the developed world can spend their money on social programs. The US is the world's police, by default and by choice, and no other governing body is in a position to do anything, and everyone involved pretty much likes it that way.

[marym625]

14. I don't like it

But I think there's a difference with Afghanistan on that we're already there and have been for years.

So, you're saying we should stay?

[JonLP24]

80. The lion's share of defense spending goes to private defense contractors & this is what they do on a

large scale. http://www.uclalawreview.org/pdf/62-1-3.pdf

For something regarding something more specific

A U.S. Fortress Rises in Baghdad:
Asian Workers Trafficked to Build World's Largest Embassy

John Owens didn’t realize how different his job would be from his last 27 years in construction until he signed on with First Kuwaiti Trading & Contracting in November 2005. Working as general foreman, he would be overseeing an army of workers building the largest, most expensive and heavily fortified US embassy in the world. Scheduled to open in 2007, the sprawling complex near the Tigris River will equal Vatican City in size.

Then seven months into the job, he quit.

Not one of the five different US embassy sites he had worked on around the world compared to the mess he describes. Armenia, Bulgaria, Angola, Cameroon and Cambodia all had their share of dictators, violence and economic disruption, but the companies building the embassies were always fair and professional, he says. The Kuwait-based company building the $592-million Baghdad project is the exception. Brutal and inhumane, he says “I’ve never seen a project more fucked up. Every US labor law was broken.”

In the resignation letter last June, Owens told First Kuwaiti and US State Department officials that his managers beat their construction workers, demonstrated little regard for worker safety, and routinely breached security.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=14173

This is done on such a large scale it is a very open secret & already saw they were at the bottom of the totem poll, and I made at-least 10 times more than the TCNs that personally worked us who did mostly the same thing with no weapon or armor, fiberglass figerglass slept where the trucks parked with 2 troops detailed to "watch the TCNs" this is what are so-called "world police" force does but if anyone needs some world policing it is US oh and the US is so hypocritically in full of shit in playing up human rights concerns because where are they regarding CAR or pleasing Saudi Arabia is more important than policing them.

Certainly Western governments, mainly Britain with France & Canada regular allies but I'm sure a lot of people but the US is more like the schoolyard bully no body fucks with. The US would improve a lot of things if they stopped picking sides regarding issues over disputes they have no business sticking their noses in.

I can't find that really good summarily that basically starts with California Oil Company (later Chevron) finding oil in Saudi Arabia & mentions the decision to sell trade weapons for oil in response to embargo poured gasoline on the fire the US is indirectly but to put it simply the only reason why the US pays so much attention to Southwest Asia is because of war or the problems they facilitated work out great for the private defense industry.

With the hypocritical sanctions of twisting the arms of the governments the countries predecessors were twisting for years but Shale Gas was major game changer regarding oil geopolitics too soon to see how it plays but all this oil being drilled is mainly being exported. It works out great for Britian's multinationals but like I said, I bet many people would have a different view of this "world police". US certainly needs some foreign policing because they have too much power & influence but all they care about is the the oil flowing through the hands of private business the US is very hands off. Jordan is our "secret ally" in a lot of this as well and were helpful with all the rendition on torturing folks for us.

[TheKentuckian]

16. The old yank on the heartstrings school of warmongering, huh?

I make the same proposal I make for all interventionist, you want a war (or to continue an occupation) then get your ass to it and be sure to write the check to pay for it before you go.

[marym625]

19. I respect that

I would ask, do you think we have any responsibility because of what we have done there? .

[JackRiddler]

72. Yes.

The first responsibility is to stop murdering people there directly and to stop pretending it is remotely done in order to advance humanitarian causes such as helping women. This is an awesome lie and I'm very sad to see a true fighter for justice like Eleanor Smeal getting on board with the empire of war.

The best time for women's rights in Afghanistan was under the Soviets! United States policy, regardless of intent, has worked to destroy Afghan society for at this point 36 years. I think the U.S. owes the people there enormous reparations. Given the current situation - in which fundamentalist warlords rule most of the country with U.S. support - I'd say $200 billion should be spent, not on maintaining the invasion, but to be paid into an international reparations fund. This should be held back, however, until such time as a government comes to power under peaceful conditions in a legitimate universal-suffrage election with women's rights guaranteed. The money is the incentive - and it may not work, but the use of drones and boots and night-massacres and arms for warlords (again, who are often as bad as the Taliban) clearly has made things worse.

[marym625]

73. Yes, I agree

I will have to look up the history of the country again. I don't remember well enough as to when the changes happened with the Taliban taking over. Someone else here posted that it was the soviets that caused the problem. Maybe I read that wrong. I will go back and check.

Regardless, I agree with you about reparations. We owe that to many, many places.

Yeah, I hate our use of drones. Just horrible stuff

[TheKentuckian]

74. We have the responsibility to get the fuck out and to stop destabilizing everything we don't like

We totally melted the whole thing there playing Domino Theory games with Russia in the 80's by propping up the extremists and then bailing on those elements once Soviets withdrew, allowing it to mutate and spin out of control.

No, we have been fucking up since before virtually a soul even gave a damn and our "fixing" bandaids probably paid for with a lot of slaughter and destruction of people that weren't thinking about us until we decided to occupy their lands for well over a decade already and folks are still wringing their hands about fake leaving in almost two years from now yet.

What is it that you think can be accomplished, at what cost, and over what period of time?

[marym625]

81. Nothing

I agree with you.

[Throd]

17. No.

[marym625]

20. Thank you

I mean it. I thank you

[Marr]

22. Absolutely not.

This would be a completely open-ended commitment. We'd be spending untold amounts of lives and treasure, in perpetuity, protecting another culture from itself.

[marym625]

23. absolutely right

I tend to think with my heart sometimes. Stupid, I know.

I actually was thinking about Malala Yousafzai when I first read this article. I thought, this little girl can stand up for herself and others but we need to stay in Afghanistan? Then I read more about what could happen and became unsure of what is right.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate it

[JonLP24]

24. The US isn't to be trusted regarding Afghanistan

For better or worse, the Taliban are likely to remain a political force in government. Another new government? You can't kill them all and especially when we far too nice to the golden goose -- Saudi Arabia who already has the oppression accomplished, a very long time ago. A significant turning point was the automobile when they decided women aren't allowed to drive or drive by themselves when prior, a woman was still allowed to ride a camel by herself. If the US had a legitimate human rights concern they would be in Saudi Arabia yesterday & I don't mean war staging & planning or drilling for oil.

Regarding US involvement, given that NATO was involved it reeks of "shock therapy" especially when I found out the US was involved in overthrowing the communists (or that was the accusation or stated difference justifying regime change) in charge, even by the Pentagon's own admission the US primary cause of the corruption because of the CIA teaming up with drug traffickers & war lords, Afghanistan had one of the worst banking crisis in history right around the time of our "Financial Crisis". Not to mention contracts were just an easy way to fatten their pockets, many projects were simply left unfinished and this is regarding US contractor contracts. The Afghanistan government reportedly had some anti-corruption proposals they wanted to pass but a US Diplomat was publicly criticizing them, basically saying they shouldn't do it because they won't work.

The US & NATO was more concerned that Russia isn't allowed, shouldn't be allowed, & under no circumstances allow them take part whatever it is going on in Afghanistan.



Any decision on the end date/end state will be taken by the respective national and/or Alliance political committee. Under no circumstances should the mission end-date be a topic for speculation in public by any NATO/ISAF spokespeople.
The term "compensation" is inappropriate and should not be used because it brings with it legal implications that do not apply.
Any talk of stationing or deploying Russian military assets in Afghanistan is out of the question and has never been the subject of any considerations.
Only if pressed: ISAF forces are frequently fired at from inside Pakistan, very close to the border. In some cases defensive fire is required, against specific threats. Wherever possible, such fire is pre-coordinated with the Pakistani military.

https://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/Wikileaks_cracks_NATO%27s_Master_Narrative_for_Afghanistan

[marym625]

25. excellent post

Agree with every word.

Now I am very interested to find out why this particular women's group wants us to stay. I am not sure how I got on their mailing list. I belong to NOW but as far as organizations for women, that's it. That I am actually a member I mean.

Thanks for the information and your thoughts. I appreciate it

[Jamastiene]

27. Well, if our goal and any of our actions were to protect girls and women,

your question would make perfect sense, but that is not why America is there, unfortunately. Why don't we compromise? We could leave some smaller voluntary force there to protect the girls and women and bring the rest back home to regroup and come up with a strategy that might actually work to make that region freer and safer for the people there AND here. That way, we will not be permanently stuck in a quagmire that is just not going to end without better strategies than we have tried so far.

Why are we always presented with only two choices, to do something or not to do something? Why not think and come up with better solutions? I'm sick of the either/or with only two choices when there are other possibilities.

I would hate to be in his shoes if that's all he is ever going to get to decide, Option 1 or Option 2, neither of which looks all that effective.

[marym625]

29. Good point

Since we won't be fully withdrawn until the end of 2016, we have time to do just that, figure out how to help without being a military force

[Liberal_in_LA]

28. men and women need protection from the taliban bastards

[marym625]

31. Very true

I would assume that men who try to help women would be in even more danger than women or men that don't.

[JonLP24]

34. Wow -- I never really knew too much of the Taliban but the one man standing in their way

was assassinated in the early 2000s & there were numerous attempts on his life.

I know they're Wahabbi cult like House of Saud, Al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc & if they're in control use a lot of fear & intimidation as well as overload on the propaganda. Usually the first rule is don't criticize them then the public beheading is done as a brutal example to keep the others in line.

In the case of Saudi Arabia, occasionally demonstrations break out but ends after a few beheading which exactly was the case regarding Nimr Al-Nimr so disagreeing with them opens you up to a brutal execution but I didn't expect to find such a straight forward example right away under 2001

After longstanding battles especially for the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif, Abdul Rashid Dostum and his Junbish forces were defeated by the Taliban and their allies in 1998. Dostum subsequently went into exile. Ahmad Shah Massoud remained the only major anti-Taliban leader inside Afghanistan who was able to defend vast parts of his territory against the Taliban.

In the areas under his control Massoud set up democratic institutions and signed the Women's Rights Declaration.[112] In the area of Massoud, women and girls did not have to wear the Afghan burqa. They were allowed to work and to go to school. In at least two known instances, Massoud personally intervened against cases of forced marriage.[36]

It is our conviction and we believe that both men and women are created by the Almighty. Both have equal rights. Women can pursue an education, women can pursue a career, and women can play a role in society – just like men.[36]
—Ahmad Shah Massoud, 2001

Massoud is adamant that in Afghanistan women have suffered oppression for generations. He says that 'the cultural environment of the country suffocates women. But the Taliban exacerbate this with oppression.' His most ambitious project is to shatter this cultural prejudice and so give more space, freedom and equality to women – they would have the same rights as men.[36]
—Pepe Escobar, Massoud: From Warrior to Statesman

Afghan traditions would need a generation or more to overcome and could only be challenged by education, he said.[36] Humayun Tandar, who took part as an Afghan diplomat in the 2001 International Conference on Afghanistan in Bonn, said that "strictures of language, ethnicity, region were [also] stifling for Massoud. That is why ... he wanted to create a unity which could surpass the situation in which we found ourselves and still find ourselves to this day."[36] This applied also to strictures of religion. Jean-José Puig describes how Massoud often led prayers before a meal or at times asked his fellow Muslims to lead the prayer but also did not hesitate to ask a Christian friend Jean-José Puig or the Jewish Princeton University Professor Michael Barry: "Jean-José, we believe in the same God. Please, tell us the prayer before lunch or dinner in your own language."[36]

Human Rights Watch cites no human rights crimes for the forces under direct control of Massoud for the period from October 1996 until the assassination of Massoud in September 2001.[31] 400,000 to one million Afghans fled from the Taliban to the area of Massoud.[91][113] National Geographic concluded in its documentary "Inside the Taliban":

The only thing standing in the way of future Taliban massacres is Ahmad Shah Massoud.[91]
—National Geographic, Inside the Taliban

The Taliban repeatedly offered Massoud a position of power to make him stop his resistance. Massoud declined. He explained in one interview:

The Taliban say: 'Come and accept the post of prime minister and be with us', and they would keep the highest office in the country, the presidentship. But at what cost?! The difference between us concerns mainly our way of thinking about the very principles of the society and the state. We can not accept their conditions of compromise, or else we would have to give up the principles of modern democracy. We are fundamentally against the system called 'the Emirate of Afghanistan".[114]
—Ahmad Shah Massoud, 2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban

Afghanistan torn apart by armed conflict since 1978 -- Ahmad Shah Massoud has spent pretty much his entire life at war inside Afghanistan & managed to survive, even the several attempts on his life following 2000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Shah_Massoud

I should probably study Pakistan more given that their name comes indicating they're a middle man to all this chaos. Saudi Arabia, if the report I read was true struck up an arrangement with Pakistan to provide them a nuke when they want one which also has the benefit of being able to say they don't have nukes on Saudi soil & enjoy whatever having nuke brings you. They also blamed the US for this because they weren't hard enough on Iran.

I need to check out this book: Taliban: Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia Mentions some enemy of my enemy type of alliances on part of the US in early 90s regarding Iran as well as they offered a hopeful outlook regarding an oil company (privatization is a big part of Wahabbism for some reason).

One thing I did come across is Saudi Arabia is among the lowest of the low regarding Human Rights. The Talibans does appear to take it further than the others. The others take genders roles to the extreme & seem to trying to prevent all those bad things normally taken as advice such as lust with the whole males aren't allowed to communicate with women not related to them or vice versa so whenever a woman does something "wrong" they are addressed through the male relative & if it becomes a repeat issue than the male is the initial target for the punishment. I've received ass chewing from people who just came back by from an ass chewing which makes it worse than normal for some reason but I don't even want to imagine what some women face regarding how some men choose to police these dress code violations.

The Taliban however even goes so far to rename a woman's garden to the spring's garden & eliminating the word woman from the vocubilarity is what ranks as a pressing concern so their ideology or to make a generalization regarding the Taliban's women rights' records they seem to be offended by the existence of a woman. You'd probably have to look very hard to find a group or rulers with a worse women rights records

[marym625]

41. Thanks for all the information

Some I knew, some I had forgotten and some I learned here.

I appreciate the time taken to post all this. Thank you

[JonLP24]

47. Thanks for appreciating what I was just recently fearing I was going overboard

I can start telling something which brings up something that was interesting to me (maybe not to others) and I can end up telling 7 different stories at once so I worry about the rambling or basically the overload the occurs during the progress of a post.

Discussing, researching, & learning is very addicting to me. Afghanistan has always been something I haven't paid much attention until more recently, I sometimes had to remind myself there was still a war over there though someone who I deployed with in Iraq in '06 was in Afghanistan in '08 wanted to return home ASAP. Very unhappy, when he mentioned someone died I didn't know what to say. Initially, I asked which is worse he said Afghanistan was war worse. Said fighters regularly come up to & attack the convoys when in Iraq the most common thing was a roadside bomb going off with nobody visibly around. The trucks absorb it so pretty much everything but the EFPs are low risk to the drivers. Bombs + the ambush was described as what is typical in Afghanistan anyways I didn't have daily updates so what I've known was very limited, most of the information I shared I learned for the first time as I was sharing it in.

I always maintained a pet interest in Iraq or could provide a perspective over something or an area I'm familiar with but one of the things I always felt is it felt like a country I'd like to visit if there wasn't a war going on. Mornings in central Iraq had a very distinct feel which was very good, hard to describe it. Kuwait just looked like Phoenix in many ways as well as a touch of Miami. The roads are in much better shape than our own and the road markings are more advanced or there are more of them. You could certainly tell money was behind it while crossing over reminded me of leaving Arizona or California into Mexico but from a richer Arizona into a poorer Mexico. Off-track again, anyways, the point I wanted to make foreign policy or learning about the governments & politics of various countries is very fascinating & probably ranks higher than a domestic concern though 4th amendment issues I'm heavily interested in so I enjoy it -- the learning & have learned a lot myself from DU itself

[marym625]

52. my favorite part of DU, learning

My cousin (actually a few cousins but one I was very close to at the time) was in Iraq in 05, Fallujah. He talked about how great the Iraqi people are. His squad told me when they got back, how he made friends with everyone. He didn't speak the language but that didn't stop him. And how he would eat everything that was offered him from people coming out of their homes as they went by. Probably not the best idea in the world, considering what we were doing there. But he never regretted it.

He went there all gung ho. He left and became an officer in a Iraq Vets Against the War local chapter.

One of his squad's humvees didn't withstand the IED. Two people in his unit were blown up.

I appreciate the information. I totally get going off in other directions when reading about something. I do it myself.

[JonLP24]

68. That is very key point you mention

Very early on, a convoy had 3 gun trucks front middle and the end. Early into the first quarter of the deployment there was a change in SOP in switching places with the gun truck and the M915A2 given that odds favor the first vehicle striking it (though I don't know if it ever happened like that) and it was well know how dangerous a blast is to a Humvee & how the bigger trucks can easily absorb. A very common sense move was made & while it was changed early into my deployment but I'm guessing the other way was done during the 3 years before I got there. Either way, smart & a very common sense move which I'm sure came from many people proposing it since it was the sort of idea that naturally comes to you when you learn of the differences.

[marym625]

70. The lack of shocks in the humvees

Caused more brain injuries than anything else. Just shocks and so many with permanent, disabling brain damage wouldn't have happened.

Amazing what is important to the military.

[bluedigger]

30. Seems quixotic, given that they can't even protect females in the US military.

[marym625]

32. seriously excellent point

Thank you

[JonLP24]

42. Chain of command only works when the links are competent & ethical

The ones at the bottom of all the incompetence rolling down hill. If you have a bad person then refugee can be found if the person above him is both ethical & most importantly competent, I can't count how many things were decided that happened. Usually the types of later get angry when you attempt to explain.

My best example was actually a result of the one of the two things I was aware of but I'll start with this after I walked through a barracks hallway with a red cup going into a room. The CQ of the barracks that night was someone who also decided I did something I really didn't do based on some very questionable evidence I'd love to tell about but to stay on point, she knocks I come out I was accused of having alcohol outside a barracks room which is a result of something I originally was going to talk about and I kept repeating there was no alcohol which in the cup (which is why I even left one room to walk to the other so I can refill the cup) I was threatened to be written up if I didn't accept your interpretation but I kept denying it because I literally didn't have alcohol in the hallway but got myself written up.

After the deployment, I was going to mention how it was informed to me from someone officially designated to give those sort of briefs after but in continuation of the no-alcohol in the hallway rule. Our sister company in Al-Asad got back about a month early, the only inside details I received was someone from our unit who became part of the rear detachment that stayed there after he got his leg messed up in a roadside bomb + complex attack (ambush). Basically, a rape occurred, he told them what he witnessed or what he knew at the CID building. By-the-time we got back, the barracks were locked down or changed in a way which never became the same. It was really hard up, especially at first (this was late July early August 2007, the alcohol outside the barracks was the weekend after New Year's 2008) with routine MP patrols, a whole set of new rules with no alcohol outside the rooms or underage drinking able to pass off a "I just turned 21" from an unexpected question since checking for IDs wasn't an issue until people started getting in trouble while underage drinking which led to usually the first question "how did you get the alcohol?"

Before deployment it was an open, social memorable environment you could wander into other unit sections, different floors, & drink & socialize for the night. 3 story beer bongs. The barracks was just a dead, sad, empty place when I came back. Regarding anything else I'm not aware of but given all the drinking or even hearing of someone discovered in a room with alcohol poisoning after being unaccounted for 2-3 days likely meaning she was passed out in her room all that time. I can certain imagine scenarios, I didn't see those kind passing out in a room full of males but typically I didn't have those sort of friends, I was able to pick out better friends after a year of deployment. Plus I was a committed relationship and received almost none of that sort of interest anywhere near a military base, the further away I got the better. Put I could certainly see the group dynamics play into under-reporting in addition to the general reasons why these crimes often go unreported.

Someone I met through services for veterans told me if I went down to the Vet Center, made a sexual abuse claim & I don't even have to prove it & receive disability payments no delay no back pay or the waiting period which is typical regarding disability claims. I have no idea if this is true as of yet, I still haven't been down to the Vet Center but from what I hear they're the best place regarding disability claims in general and I couldn't make up a story about being a victim of sex crime in the military (after is a different story but this is the only time I ever hinted, much less told anyone that event) for money. That is well over the line I don't cross.

There are supposedly back channels or the claims could be taken to military police or CID but group dynamics regarding unit, co-workers I can see factor into not reporting it in addition to the other factors that contribute to these type of crimes going unreported.

Regarding deployments, there was a briefing very early on in Kuwait and was told rape was a pretty common occurence, when she mentioned males being raped which incited laughter but she emphasized it does happen. She mentioned CSC Scania as where most of the rapes reportedly occur and I believed it when I saw it. It is very small but a lot of nooks & crannies & very poor lighting. Pretty much the whole place was dark when the sun went down, it was basically a truck stop, the vast majority of the people in the base are just passing through so that may play into it as well as how many different units & people that pass through at a time so a rapist probably wouldn't want to target someone that knows the rapist. I also imagine there was a lot of sex in general over there too since their "sick call" was the only one I ever saw with a condom basket. I was under the impression sex was prohibited but CSC Scania had a sign behind the condoms saying sex is allowed as long the same rank is having sex. Whatever the rules, there was a lot of it. Even someone who deployed to the same base as his wife cheated on her remarkably early. There is a lot of "unfaithful wife back home" occasionally in art but there certainly was a lot of cheating husbands & wives at the FOB as well. Like I said, around military installations 0% interest regarding me but I was very committed to someone who ironically did cheat or a actually a couple months before regarding know for her fact evidence but how long & how serious given that she cried over someone I never heard of that was murdered in December 2006. Later found out, same dude. Also snooping she got an order of protection against him & a woman I never heard of in November 2006 which she didn't decide to tell me about which didn't anger but I was so far from away to handle things I'm getting off track again.

Months down the road, we had a very small platoon meeting which is typical since we were constantly on the road back for a couple days, sent back out so the women in our platoon were on the road at-the-time when I remember the acting platoon sergeant was handing out "rape whistles" which was treated as a big joke he said, he simply ordered to hand them all to everyone, Personally, my "rape whistle" never left my locker.

I tried to give as much what I know regarding the military & sex crimes in general & while it is an ongoing concern which ways to report crimes outside the chain of command was mentioned in every single Equal Opportunity brief by someone who was probably the most competant & fair person I ever met in the military. He was so far above the mean people like him were unlikely to exist. Hopefully it was helpful in maybe explaining what factors could exist to contribute to the problem. Certainly military bases somewhere else, especially with a lot of open & hidden areas with little traffic. We drank expensive cheap alcohol at the battle damage tank yard in Tafi.

Certainly if it is a similar unit or smaller assignment like as office organization or in a situation where your options are limited. Basic or MOS training, probably the latter more likely since Basic training would be incredibly difficult for a rapist to pick their spots, would appear to more problematic since the options are limited & much less informed, especially if it is collective & drill sergeants typically interact with recruits with little oversight from the upper chain of command.

[bluedigger]

71. Thanks for sharing your experience, JonLP.

I spent my time in combat arms in the '80's. I literally never even saw women in uniform unless I was at the PX, dentist, or post supply or some such. So I really can't speak to any sexual dynamics within the services from personal experience. It breaks my heart, though, as a proud peacetime veteran, when I hear the stories, and the sheer numbers of victims (male, too) that are being brought out in the open more and more. I agree that the problem and the means to stop the abuse rest with the chain of command, whose own self-interests (promotion) are in direct conflict with resolving the problem due to the system. It's easy for the top (DOD) to direct a command emphasis on sexual abuse, but until they make it a priority from top to bottom, without fear of consequences for those willing tp prosecute and expose their brothers-in-arms, whatever their rank, I fear progress will be slow.

[JonLP24]

75. Well the 1SG had for the vast majority of time was very incompetent

as well as the CC based on my limited perception which includes telling an Assistant Convoy Commander (after the 1SG didn't give the order he was looking for) to depart by over a reason which would violate regulations which involved me. I had a broken hand, a profile that mentions "no carrying of a firearm" which the only reason why he was alerted of that when he asked why someone was playfully carrying my weapon for me which is making a literal joke of it but having a weapon & having it on amber is a requirement to even leave the base. A broken right hand would bring up but a rare but potentially possible situation where I'm outside the up-armored vehicles and need to use it. Anyways, he went up around the backstairs again and got the order he was looking from the Battalion Commander.

I was flown back to Kuwait the next day, I was at BIAP when this dispute occurred. Interesting thing though is the same convoy made a trip back, then went on a mission came back. The unit armorer replaced his assistant that was on the convoy after mine as well as the one I was temporarily transfered from -- they were going to Al-Asad they were going somewhere which had facilities better to address my injury who I got to know well since they were finding things for me to do with a broken hand. He got hit by an RFP killed since it hit the passenger side door, his driver -- the same Assistant convoy commander who suffered a long-term leg injury was a result was later accused by the same 1SG of "malingering". It is probably very difficult to address legitimate injuries given how much it is discouraged or those with walking profiles during PT have a stigma.

Regarding my unit, one woman was lower enlisted who later married a squad leader (I liked him a lot, he was single who hung out and partied with all of us lower enlisted unusual or didn't it more than usual but I didn't view it as a bad thing or he was in my "competent" category. My Platoon Sergeant, the same one who gave those EO briefs controversially kicked him out of the platoon because he was obviously selecting his friends to be his friends to be in his squad but who was widely regarded as good at what he does, he was the unit PT expert or the title they used. I found it odd after a night of heavy drinking he could still easily outrun the vast majority of the unit with no noticeable suffering, ever. A lot of the punishment was a presentation or it has to look like he is "smoking" me but the problem & what to do next time was addressed in a very normal way prior.

What I'm saying, given they were both par tiers I don't see an abuse of power as why they hooked up & she was still married to him last I heard from her.

A male lower enlisted married his squad leader who had 3 different name tags during the time I known her. Given that she was always nice or never known her to take her role nearly as seriously as the others or corrective action was presented as a "can you help out more please" sort of tone. They kept their relationship under wraps in comparison to the others but during deployment you always spotted those 2 hanging out which led to rumors & speculation which followed his last name appearing on her uniform & being transferred out of the unit to avoid favoritism or typical handle differences in rank regarding spouses. There was only 3 squads in the platoon. A third, all 3 had a lower enlisted eventually marry their squad leader. She was my squad leader for the most part of this deployment, I had no idea this was brewing because my friend, I can't think of 1 single negative thing to say. A story from a deployment within the battalion which he had more than a little bit transfers that he pushed his NCO in his last deployment but he had to be pushing all his buttons because I can't recall whenever he used anger or always addressed concerns in a responsible way. He was very easy to get along with or his presence.

My squad leader, I didn't like her at first because she always used anger in her tone very loud. Oh god, it was difficult to be in the same vehicle with her or her anger being communicated through the coms. I say she was more on the unreasonable side. She was very big, stocky. She was Somoan and only another Somoan & my platoon Sergeant had stockier built. She looked like she could whoop some ass or was far from afraid of males in asserting her views. She was a much better person than my first impressions led me to believe. Also she tended to select more for the shit details & put me in the squad of the person widely regarded as the most incompetent of everyone in the unit & he was. A team leader basically ran things but he lost his E-5 after he passed the board to become a E-6, the only thing he had to do next was the whole ceremonious replacing rank things but got busted down for stealing an alarm clock & a teddy bear at the PX. Long term unit members said he was caught selling bootleg movies (which you can easily find in my places for only $1 per movie. Some of it was in very good quality but a lot of it had people getting up and moving across the aisles just some laughably poor movie theater films but there must be a big market for it given how widespread it is you aren't used to. You could also buy Rolexes that weren't Rolexes but they were very affordable watches so I wasn't ripped off but it is remarkable how much bootleg stuff there was. The shops Arif Jan opened to the locals had some very nice stuff. Air force 1s in many different designs, jerseys, some nice shit you can't find at the Mall.

Anyways, I'm getting off point. My friend was Micronesian short but stocky himself defended when I inadvertently was criticism his love interest but he was more of offering what she has on her plate or personal issues he is dealing with but often people became offended given.

I didn't see any of the relationships which later turned into marriages as anything but naturally occurring. Especially regarding my squad since they had very similar backgrounds and could relate each other. I did wonder if she could be too much for him but he wasn't concerned but she treated him more of as her equal than a soldier under her command. Basically everyone that was married was later moved out of the unit, 2 of the Women NCOs were replaced probably because they were NCOs. In my unit, she became pregnant so she had more of an unit office paper pushing job. There were 2 other women, one was often the receiving end of jokes regarding how unattractive she is but was very secure in herself, another one was so odd it seemed she was unaware of it, or unaware of what she should or shouldn't be bothered by. The unit comedian convinced her he received his leg injury from a shark attack but she wasn't a bad person. Before the deployment she would often come over & take control & have a blast playing grand theft auto. She was very amused over everything she can do in the game.

Outside the unit I'm not familiar of, while a woman from another platoon later married a lower enlisted from another platoon. Oh shit, I just remember the most controversial of it all. OMG. I don't know if it is relevant to share their same ethnic background but a white male was married to a Puerto Rican civilian. They hung out with around similar circles, one day she woke up in another soldiers bed who is Puerto Rican as well. At first it was presented they were both drunk, they both just happened to fall asleep to next thing he is AWOL in another state with his fellow platoon member's civilian wife. Eventually but that whole thing was wild & so out of the blue. Neither were bad guys who were friends prior to all this. She was one of the first to friend me, he friended me also. She posts a lot which he agrees with a lot or he says something which she agrees with.

I went with through basic & AIT, a lot of the changing MOS participants in AIT had a lower scale PIT. They showed up to formation, class, training which was the only time you ever saw them. Occasionally a drill sergeant would address taking a little too much advantage of the comfort level especially when they are selling an "on time" importance which the experienced anyways at-the-end there was a change from higher ups in giving 4 day passes for every weekend instead of the last 2 & the new smoking area which was very liberal changes which the drill sergeants themselves didn't like & smoking was strictly prohibited from basic to AIT so these were huge leaps in freedoms though the smoking 9pm areas ended when all these people showed up smoking cigarettes when only 1 person actually checked in his cigarettes in and out. (Smoking in the showers on top of chairs was common in those AIT barracks. Dip tobacco was widely available & easier to conceal but put yourself at the risk in the event of a "health and welfare" inspection. Anyways, outside of Fort Leonard is nothing but motels & convenient stores.

Before I mention there was a Drill Sergeants' picture on the wall but you never ever saw him around. In the initial PT information was our formation, the MOS changers, & formation of those waiting duty assignments, mostly those who were sent back from Airborne (expecting Alaska or Italy but mostly sent to Ft. Lewis or Oklahoma or Louisiana usually) school with leg injuries (remarkable how common that was) and also those who were still have extra duty left to perform. Well I later learned a woman was there because she slept with the Drill Sergeant whose photo still hung up there at one of those off-based motels which also ran into those changing MOS soldiers with recruits in AIT. One of the women I also went to basic training with, I knew for a fact she was married but there is so much cheating one night stand type just made me more depressed because I missed my love interest at-the-time like crazy all-the-time. The only reason why I even joined is to better economically provide & a recruiter happened to ask me exactly the right question at the exact time, he may have noticed I had resumes on me since the first thing he said "who do you know you have that trains for over 100 different career fields for free?" as a recruiter never solicited me, especially at a public bus stop or he happened to show up at that bus stop.

Getting on a personal sidetrack, I actually almost posted much longer story earlier inspired by your 2am post that I got tired of typing but saved because it is very unusual & very unpredictable things just happened. But that is basically my experience in the COed military, I just remembered another infidility regarding the NCO who cheated on his NCO wife with someone in "supply" she was a 92G.

Maintenance was a boys club or a very different platoon within a transportation company. They had 1 woman who was more like "one of the guys", drinking buddy, the friendly insults, she was part of the collective mentality of the maintenance platoon etc but I liked her a lot. I think most people did, I know she didn't live at the barracks, I never saw her at the barracks until she suddenly started showing up. Basically, just drink like everyone else. A lot people who had "trouble at home" came to the barracks. I don't have a clue what her personal life was or never came up. I remember one time she did came to me because she needed a place to sleep, she slept on the bed I slept on the floor.

I actually remembered a far more troubling story regarding someone who is from some other unit who I met through someone i knew in our sister company (a lot of the people I went to basic & AIT were sent their as well as the company I was) he went to North Carolina not too long after meeting her, I also fell asleep in her room with no touchy feeling stuff going on but we were always cool with each other but it wasn't anything regarding directly this topic given the outside forces or simply the saddest case I'm aware of regarding but a lot of the stuff she did she done on her own but why. Oh not sure if I should tell that one and plus I rambled story telling enough already

[bluedigger]

79. You definitely have more stories than I.

I got married right out of Basic/AIT and only was in the barracks for a month or so, until my wife joined me after her college semester ended. And, like I said, there were no women around, or even allowed in the billets outside of official business, that I recall. The funniest/most uncomfortable thing that I experienced was that my wife and my squad sergeant's wife became good friends. No big deal, until they separated. I came home (off post) after work one day to find that my wife had invited his wife to stay with us.


Luckily, he was both professional, and a friend, and didn't hold it against me, since I knew nothing about it. I was a little concerned going to work the next morning. She soon went home to NC, and he left for Warrant School at Rucker to fly choppers not long after.

When I was in Basic at Ft. Sill we went to "the strip" in Lawton when we finally got leave. We were in a dive bar, getting plundered for expensive drinks by Korean bar girls, when I saw my DI. He was a co-owner of the place.

[Victor_c3]

36. I was in Iraq, not Afghanistan

but as a combat veteran, I would say without a doubt we should pull out.

As righteous as the cause would be, it just isn't worth it or even pragmatic to expect that goal.

Fundamentally we don't have the support of the citizenry for our continued presence. The citizens aren't willing or capable of fighting to hold our gains on their own.

From my conversations with Iraqi's I learned that most people just want to be left alone and try to live their lives away from the war. They don't care who is in charge. They just don't want to be shot in the crossfire of a war. I know this is what the people of Iraq were telling me, but I would imagine that the same holds true to the Afghanis.

I'm not arguing that pulling out of Afghanistan would be awful for girls and women in their society, but to force a change in thinking onto a group or a culture that we look down upon is an unrealistic goal. Change like this needs to come from within their own culture in order for it to stick.

Are you wiling to accept the continued excessive rate of civilian death for years and possibly decades to come in hopes that it will force the Afghani society into being more liberal when it comes to rights for women?

Finally, war brings out the worst in people. When you kill people and are exposed to combat and death your morality takes a huge toll. Watching people die and suffer brings about a feeling that life is cheap and easy to take. If you can convince yourself that it is A.O.K to murder someone what is to stop you from committing any lesser transgressions in morality? Imagine what long-term continued exposure to war would to do a supposedly civil society. "civil" would go right out the window.

We can't even get our own society right let alone impart change on another so that it looks more like our own.

[marym625]

43. Thank you.

Thank you for all of this.

From my conversations with Iraqi's I learned that most people just want to be left alone and try to live their lives away from the war. They don't care who is in charge. They just don't want to be shot in the crossfire of a war. I know this is what the people of Iraq were telling me, but I would imagine that the same holds true to the Afghanis. 

I can't imagine what it is like to live in an area that is constantly at war.

I agree. Your post and others here have spelled it out very well.

I also wasn't thinking of the US staying as anything but a peace keeping unit. But I realize that is not a possibility. Especially somewhere we are not wanted

[dissentient]

45. Great post.

Thanks for the insight to how a soldier who has first hand experience in the region thinks about these things.

[bemildred]

37. Giving them the money directly (the women) would probably work better

than giving it to the Pentagon and large defense firms, they waste a lot of it.

So no, I don't think the US military and it's parasites are the best way to help women in Afghanistan or anywhere else. If we were to take all the money we spent on military stuff there lately you could just buy it, and if it were made clear that if the women were mistreated there would be NO MONEY I can assure you their treatment would improve forthwith.

[marym625]

44. hmm.

I wonder if that is possible. Good thought.

[bemildred]

50. It's possible, it's just not rewarding to the people who make such decisions.

But if you actually want to help the women, it's the cheap and effective way to go, give them money and the control of it. It doesn't even have to be a lot of money.

[marym625]

53. I wonder if there's a charity that specifically earmarks

Money for this. A trustworthy charity. I'm going to check that out. Thanks so much

[bemildred]

55. There are some out there, but I'd check into them carefully.

The trick is seeing that the women get the money, and keep control of it. You know the men will take it first thing, so you have to let them know that is not allowed and cut them off when they do. It is much easier for governments to do it, but the corruption problem in government is stubborn too.

[marym625]

61. I don't know that government or private charities

Can stop the corruption. But even if some funds getting to them should help.

Ever since I found out what percentage of money from cookie sales goes to salaries in the girl scouts, I check any charity I give to. Unfortunately, I can't give hardly anything anymore.

[bemildred]

66. +1.

Yes, charities make a great racket too, unfortunately.

I give to food banks a lot, they tend to stick to business.

Then there is Oxfam and Heifer Intl., to name a couple, and I think there are some micro-lenders, though I then to favor gifts, not debt.

[marym625]

67. The Food Depository in Chicago

Is by far the best charity around here. Maybe the best anywhere.

Thanks for the names. I don't believe I have heard of either of those

[Nye Bevan]

39. I wish it could be the United Nations doing this.

Why can't it be a genuine international coalition undertaking such a humanitarian cause? And if it was under the UN it would take away the ugly suggestions of US empire-building.

[marym625]

46. That's a really good point

I don't understand, now that you have said it, why this group is not asking for that, instead of asking for the US military to stay.

Side note, I just mentioned you in a reply to a post. I used your post about wanting a real primary as an example of hope for us to discuss without hostility. I, obviously if you have seen much of what I have posted, am not a Hillary fan. But I am so happy to see your post and those that agree with you. Thank you!

[treestar]

48. +1

We need to quit being international police - why should we pay for that - but make it an international body. The Taliban has proven they can't be trusted to treat women decently.

[bigwillq]

49. Pull out

The US needs to get out of the Middle East. For good. Forever.

[marym625]

56. yep.

After reading all the replies, I am surprised at myself for even being confused about it. I have never wanted us there. I was thinking in terms of a peace keeping unit but we know how that ends up. Either doesn't keep peace or ends up fighting.

Thank you

[BubbaFett]

51. The United States

cannot remove the inherent misogyny of their culture.

[marym625]

57. nope.

True stuff. Just hate the reality of what will happen to many females there. But we really aren't helping them, especially not wanted by any there, and we sure as shit aren't helping us.

[Iggo]

54. Out.

[marym625]

58. yep. Thank you

[B Calm]

59. Pull out now!

[marym625]

62. yep. I agree

As I said somewhere else in this thread, I now want to find out about the women's group that is asking for us to stay.

[elias49]

60. I think we need to pull out.

We can't be everyone's savior.

[marym625]

63. We sure should not be trying

When we can't seem to even help people here.

Everyone here has shown me why staying is wrong. Thank you for your input

[randome]

64. Why not offer them immigration? We do for other life-endangering scenarios.

I wonder how many would opt for it.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

[marym625]

65. interesting idea

I think it's a great idea. I don't know that there would be many takers. But hell, it's worth a shot.

[elias49]

69. Nice sentiment.

But imagine the outrage from the Right? 'They wear funny clothes. They're taking American jobs. We don't need no Sharia law here!!"
Sometimes you can't win.

[Marrah_G]

76. We should extend an invitation to any afghani woman who wants to emigrate to the US.

Leaving them to Taliban rule is torture for them.

[marym625]

82. Someone else suggested that as well

I like the idea.

[ieoeja]

78. Time for the reminder: Liberals urged Afghanistan intervention years before 9/11.

Albeit, at that time all we urged was supplying the elected Afghan government violently displaced by the Taliban.

[Snow Leopard]

83. at the beginning of the war

when many were advocating pulling out or lamenting going in, I often made the argument that for the sake of the women there we should stay.

What I wasn't bright enough to think about or articulate, was that should have been the entire strategic vision of the operation. Screw building bridges, highways, water treatment that some jihadi would just blow up.

Focus the whole effort around empowering women as the catalyst for change in that country. This would include a way of getting women and girls out of that hell hole and to some western democracy if they couldn't survive there.

Create villages/cities in Afg for families that are not stuck in the dark ages so that women and children wouldn't have to be seperated from their families. Educate, educate, educate.

This is a 15-25yr project, and while we've done some of this, we are 14yrs in now, and have spent too much on wacking moles, and the US frankly doesn't have the money (forget about political will) to essentially start this still 15-25yr project now.

I hate it, but think it is best to get out now. Maybe the 2.4 million in school will be enough to create the change needed.