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pa28

(6,145 posts)
Sat Mar 28, 2015, 10:11 PM Mar 2015

TPP contains a provision for bailing out derivative losses. Is this what re-negotiating NAFTA means?

Last edited Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:47 AM - Edit history (2)

You probably remember President Obama's pledge during the campaign of 2008 to re-negotiate NAFTA on behalf of unions and environmentalists.

Never happened. However, as part of Obama's effort to sell the Trans Pacific Partnership the administration has depicted the agreement as an improved trade deal that would fix NAFTA's problems and make good on the President's promise.

Sounds good but the leaked environmental and investment chapters say it's not true.

TPP widens the scope of an "investment" to derivatives, opening the door for compensation from governments in the event of losses resulting from new law or regulation. Derivatives are side bets on the performance of an investment that have no equity stake in the underlying security or commodity price. Derivatives are NOT an investment and the scale of the derivatives market far exceeds that of the cash value of stock markets. This means a massive increase in taxpayer exposure to losses and increased incentive for banks to ramp up leverage and risky bets without actually investing in the economy.

Investment means every asset that an investor owns or controls, directly or indirectly, that
has the characteristics of an investment, including such characteristics as the commitment
of capital or other resources, the expectation of gain or profit, or the assumption of risk.
Forms that an investment may take include:
(a) an enterprise;
(b) shares, stock and other forms of equity participation in an enterprise;
(c) bonds, debentures, other debt instruments, and loans;23
(d) futures, options and other derivatives;


NAFTA limited the definition of an investment to money directly connected with an enterprise.

The leaked environment chapter also loosens rather than strengthens protections included in trade deals as recently as the Bush administration.

Sierra Club: Obama’s record on environment and trade worse than George W. Bush

Environmentalists told the New York Times that the Obama Administration was “retreat[ing] on a variety of environmental protections — including legally binding pollution control requirements and logging regulations and a ban on harvesting sharks’ fins — to advance a trade deal . . . .” Further the Sierra Club’s Ilana Solomon, saying “the draft omits crucial language ensuring that increased trade will not lead to further environmental destruction.” The problems in the draft are detailed in their Joint Analysis.

In a press release Michael Brune, executive director of the Sierra Club says: “If the environment chapter is finalized as written in this leaked document, President Obama’s environmental trade record would be worse than George W. Bush’s. This draft chapter falls flat on every single one of our issues – oceans, fish, wildlife, and forest protections – and in fact, rolls back on the progress made in past free trade pacts.”


Banks and corporations are negotiating this agreement with former bankers and lobbyists who were paid huge exit bonuses to draft TPP on behalf of the American public. It's true that NAFTA is being "re-negotiated" by this agreement but it seems to me we're replacing it with something even worse.
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TPP contains a provision for bailing out derivative losses. Is this what re-negotiating NAFTA means? (Original Post) pa28 Mar 2015 OP
The most corporate friendly president in history Doctor_J Mar 2015 #1
Like Clinton before him... appal_jack Mar 2015 #25
hardly in history; you're exaggerating there. ND-Dem Mar 2015 #45
Holy shit... dixiegrrrrl Mar 2015 #2
exactly. Gambling. nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #3
Yes, they are bets. Not investments. pa28 Mar 2015 #5
Because the banks wrote the gambling language dixiegrrrrl Mar 2015 #21
Absolutely none. They know they are free to pillage. nt mother earth Mar 2015 #33
+1 woo me with science Mar 2015 #43
We are bought and sold. We are exploited like farm animals for the profit of a corrupt elite. woo me with science Mar 2015 #15
Well said. Enthusiast Mar 2015 #18
+100 ND-Dem Mar 2015 #46
the 1 % are gonna use it as the questionseverything Mar 2015 #36
Or as Warren Buffett... sendero Mar 2015 #39
k & r. Thanks for posting. nm rhett o rick Mar 2015 #4
K&R. JDPriestly Mar 2015 #6
So if they file in the tribunals and win, aspirant Mar 2015 #7
the only thing that makes me happy about this is dixiegrrrrl Mar 2015 #41
K&R Scuba Mar 2015 #8
Kick to expose CORRUPTION woo me with science Mar 2015 #9
TO THE GREATEST PAGE. THIS IS IMPORTANT. woo me with science Mar 2015 #10
Thank you pa28!!! RiverLover Mar 2015 #11
Excellent points. mmonk Mar 2015 #12
ever notice that nothing leaked about the TPP looks good for working americans, yet KG Mar 2015 #13
+1 And notice how the corporate mouthpieces avoid this thread woo me with science Mar 2015 #14
That's how I'm seeing these leaked documents. pa28 Mar 2015 #31
Those people don't care about issues such as corrupt banks, wars, jobs and health care Corruption Inc Mar 2015 #37
So let me get this straight on the TPP Broward Mar 2015 #16
K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations! Enthusiast Mar 2015 #17
Public money to cover private losses. It should be criminal except this is the law. nt Nuclear Unicorn Mar 2015 #19
Obama has been the most disappointing politician in my lifetime Oilwellian Mar 2015 #20
His presidency epitomizes the corruption of our government from representation into corporatism. woo me with science Mar 2015 #22
Nor is it making any pretense of such, soon I hope our nation will have its own mother earth Mar 2015 #40
Does he play aspirant Mar 2015 #48
First, please clue me in, who, what & why? mother earth Mar 2015 #53
It really seems like the TPP/TTIP is just a direct assault on so many of the things that stillwaiting Mar 2015 #23
Reversing decades of hard won progressive legislation is nearly impossible in the open. pa28 Mar 2015 #35
I don't think anyone is looking at the details here. randome Mar 2015 #24
Third Way incoherence/redirection/talking points. woo me with science Mar 2015 #26
Enjoy your Sunday Downer, then. randome Mar 2015 #27
The exposure of deliberate corruption is not a "downer." woo me with science Mar 2015 #28
+1. Anyone defending this anti-democratic piece of garbage is suspect. GoneFishin Mar 2015 #29
K & R. GoneFishin Mar 2015 #30
K&R for visibilty Populist_Prole Mar 2015 #32
There is a global plutocracy beating every nation into slavery & debtocracy, how long do we endure mother earth Mar 2015 #34
+1000000 How long, indeed. woo me with science Mar 2015 #38
, allforone Mar 2015 #42
K&R liberal_at_heart Mar 2015 #44
kr ND-Dem Mar 2015 #47
Un-Fucking-Believable... AzDar Mar 2015 #49
Fighting the last war reminds me of two guys in a nursing home fighting over some CK_John Mar 2015 #50
k&R nt/ think Mar 2015 #51
K&R nenagh Mar 2015 #52
K&R marym625 Apr 2015 #54
 

appal_jack

(3,813 posts)
25. Like Clinton before him...
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:06 PM
Mar 2015

Bill Clinton facilitated the cover-up of Reagan and George H W Bush era Iran Contra Constitutional violations, and finessed the passage of Reagan and Bush negotiated NAFTA, eroding wages, weakening Labor, and hollowing-out our country.

Now Barack Obama facilitates the cover-up of George W Bush era torture, illegal Iraq invasion, and many other Constitutional violations, while also facilitating the passage of corporate and bankster negotiated TPP, TTIP, etc., further roding wages, weakening Labor, and hollowing-out our country.

As a Democrat, I want candidates who represent the people, worker agency, environmental quality, and strong regulation of corporations. Clinton and Obama have both willingly failed in these tasks.

k&r,

-app

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
2. Holy shit...
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:24 AM
Mar 2015

Derivatives are BETS....nothing more than bets...an estimation of the bets is in the 50 trillion range, more than the entire wealth of the world.

Bank of America got Gov't permission to include their billions in derivatives in FDIC coverage.


pa28

(6,145 posts)
5. Yes, they are bets. Not investments.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:50 AM
Mar 2015

Why are betting losses being covered in the investment chapter of a trade agreement?

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
21. Because the banks wrote the gambling language
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 10:20 AM
Mar 2015

and there is STILL no functional oversight or curbs to their greed.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
15. We are bought and sold. We are exploited like farm animals for the profit of a corrupt elite.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 08:55 AM
Mar 2015


Representative government, my ass.

aspirant

(3,533 posts)
7. So if they file in the tribunals and win,
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 01:45 AM
Mar 2015

the money is paid TAX FREE by us to multinationals.

These are even better than subsidies that need government approval.

Let's see if I've got this: Government subsidies + Bailouts + Tribunal awards + private government contracts = A Financial Multinational Dictatorship

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
41. the only thing that makes me happy about this is
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 05:49 PM
Mar 2015

that I am paying off my mortgage with cheaper and cheaper dollars.

'course, we are need more of them to buy the same loaf of bread that was half as cheap in 2000.

KG

(28,751 posts)
13. ever notice that nothing leaked about the TPP looks good for working americans, yet
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 08:15 AM
Mar 2015

yet the tiger beat faction keeps insisting it's full of jobs, pay raises and soy bean-shitting unicorns, if we only have faith (because obama)?

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
14. +1 And notice how the corporate mouthpieces avoid this thread
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 08:51 AM
Mar 2015

hoping it will sink.

This needs to stay on top. This is the DELIBERATE ENABLING OF CORRUPTION. This is the depth of the moral and political and governmental corruption that is being forced down our throats by the very politicians who pretend to represent us and claim to be on our side.

This is the moral and ethical sewer our government has become.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
31. That's how I'm seeing these leaked documents.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 02:12 PM
Mar 2015

Despite promises of jobs and growth benefiting working Americans the environment and investment chapters show nothing of the kind. There are no improved "protections" against corporate abuse in the documents when compared to NAFTA. At least none that I've read.

In reality it looks like banks and corporations have found the pot of gold under the rainbow. Hoooray!

 

Corruption Inc

(1,568 posts)
37. Those people don't care about issues such as corrupt banks, wars, jobs and health care
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 04:30 PM
Mar 2015

as we all know. They'll oppose any and all progressive candidates over the next 2 years with nothing more than empty personal attacks, outright lies, misinformation campaigns and numerous other forms of easily spotted propaganda.

Why this site allows such front groups to pervade the place is obvious; there are so many front group people here that they easily dominate any "jury" that comes along.

Americans know what we want: universal health care, preservation of social programs, stopping the wasteful and criminal spending on endless wars, no trade agreements that sellout every American, criminals at all levels of business and government to be held accountable with arrests and prosecutions, protection of unions, environmental action not words and, an end to the daily onslaught of obvious whorish propaganda that our own government insists on distributing though it's completely discredited corporate media.

Most, not all, Americans are easily smart enough to understand all of the above and support all of it.

Broward

(1,976 posts)
16. So let me get this straight on the TPP
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 09:16 AM
Mar 2015

Most Republicans are for it, big corporations are helping write it, and leaked provisions show it's a boon to said corporations. Yeah, there's nothing to worry about.

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
20. Obama has been the most disappointing politician in my lifetime
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 10:17 AM
Mar 2015

I never dreamed he would help turn our country into an oligarchic, fascist Kleptocracy.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
22. His presidency epitomizes the corruption of our government from representation into corporatism.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 11:25 AM
Mar 2015

An electoral process to represent the people has been utterly replaced by slick corporate advertising to sell a Bait and Switch presidency that exploits the many for the profit of a few.

Our purchased government rules by manipulation now, with a goal of profit. It is not trying to represent us anymore.

mother earth

(6,002 posts)
40. Nor is it making any pretense of such, soon I hope our nation will have its own
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 05:10 PM
Mar 2015

Syriza movement. A gov't by the people & by the left, move to the progressive left, TY very much.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
23. It really seems like the TPP/TTIP is just a direct assault on so many of the things that
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 11:52 AM
Mar 2015

progressives/liberals value. Of course, most big corporations despise most progressive/liberal values, and they wrote it so it's not unreasonable to expect that there will be quite a bit of legislation that liberals/progressives object to.

This trade deal is different from previous trade deals. It includes MANY countries which would make changing it very, very difficult, and the scope of what's included seems to be much greater than previous trade deals as well (from everything that we know about it to date; including what's been leaked).

There are so many reasons to oppose Fast Track right now.

No transparency = No TPP.

pa28

(6,145 posts)
35. Reversing decades of hard won progressive legislation is nearly impossible in the open.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 04:02 PM
Mar 2015

They've found a back door way to put pressure on old regulation and a potent dissuasion against any new labor and environmental law.

This is the "number one priority" of the Democratic president we elected. Unbelievable.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
24. I don't think anyone is looking at the details here.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 11:59 AM
Mar 2015

If a signatory to the treaty passes a law designed to keep a foreign company from doing business in that country, and the tribunal rules against that signatory, then penalties will be assessed.

Why that should have anything to do with NAFTA is beyond me. It has to do with compensation for protectionist measures.

Although I agree that derivatives should be withdrawn from the definition of 'investment'. Especially since Wall Street has such complicated financial tools, I doubt the other, smaller signatories would truly understand them.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Precision and concision. That's the game.[/center][/font][hr]

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
27. Enjoy your Sunday Downer, then.
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:30 PM
Mar 2015

[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
28. The exposure of deliberate corruption is not a "downer."
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 12:37 PM
Mar 2015

It is a necessary step in the reclamation of our democratic government from the corruption you just tried to divert from with that blather.

The main idea here is clear and important, Third Way talking points and attempts at diversion notwithstanding.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
32. K&R for visibilty
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 02:12 PM
Mar 2015

We keep hearing leaked provisions like this, even this agreement's biggest fans here on DU will either do a 180 or openly admit their interest conflicts.

mother earth

(6,002 posts)
34. There is a global plutocracy beating every nation into slavery & debtocracy, how long do we endure
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 03:46 PM
Mar 2015

this from a gov't that is supposed to represent us?

CK_John

(10,005 posts)
50. Fighting the last war reminds me of two guys in a nursing home fighting over some
Sun Mar 29, 2015, 11:41 PM
Mar 2015

battle neither of which they were in.

Nafta was about North American trade and the new relationship with our neighbors, 25 yrs ago.

TPP is about the relationship we are trying to have with the 5-6 billion people that make almost all our stuff but don't need to buy our stuff. It's
300 million people trying to pretend 6 billion people can't push us around.

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