Losers.

[geek tragedy]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/03/lausanne-nuclear-deal-winners-and-losers

Losers

Binyamin Netanyahu

The Israeli prime minister went all out to stop the accord being signed and was rebuked by almost all sides in the negotiating chamber.

After all his sound and fury, particularly before the US Congress last month – the Lausanne deal makes him look ineffectual and marginalised.

Senator Bob Corker

The accord will make it harder for the US Republican party to muster a veto-proof majority to pass the Tennessee senator’s bill, which is due to go to the floor on the Senate this month.

He needs 13 Democrats to defect to muster 67 votes. It will be hard to find that many Democrats willing to defy their president once he has sealed a deal which has the approval of most non-proliferation experts.

King Salman bin Abdulaziz

The House of Saud has taken a zero-sum game approach to Iran and will see a rapprochement between the US and Iran as a loss of Saudi influence.

However, a strengthening of ties between Iran the US may come some time behind the deal and maybe not at all. Economically, though, Iran is likely to be a stronger rival in the Gulf once sanctions are lifted.

My favorite set of losers since Romney and Ryan.

[villager]

1. May they keep losing and losing.

n/t

[Enthusiast]

36. PLUS ONE, a huge bunch!

[kairos12]

2. I would add weapons merchants in general.

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. Except that Iran's gains will touch off, oh, an arms race in the ME. nt

[geek tragedy]

9. as opposed to the war that the people who oppose the negotaitions favor nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

11. Somehow I missed the inevitability of war with Iran. In my world, Obama is President

and I don't think he had the engines running on the bombers.

This narrative of people foaming at the mouth for war with Iran is missing the key ingredient of authority to make it happen.


I get it: to get people to accept this deal as akin to slicing bread before packaging, you have to gin up the alternative. I just don't buy it. So McCain wants war. So what? He also wants kids off his lawn.

[geek tragedy]

13. Obama has said the alternative to his is the path towards war

If negotiations fail, then there are two alternatives:

1) war;

2) Iran continues its nuclear program without interference, builds up its capacity at its fortified positions, etc etc etc.

Which of those two alternatives do you prefer?

[Dreamer Tatum]

14. Whoa there. Iran said it didn't HAVE a nuclear program. It was for power generation.

And nowhere other than in McCain's constipated mind was war an option, so you are asking me to choose between a falsehood and something that heretofore didn't even exist.

Are you now saying Iran was, in fact, pursuing nuclear weapons?

[geek tragedy]

16. nice dodge.

get back to us when you're interested in debating instead of hurling rightwing talking points and ridiculing strawmen positions that advocates of a diplomatic solution don't hold

[Dreamer Tatum]

17. Dodge? We were told their "research" was for peaceful nuclear power.

Because all oil-rich countries located on major faults need nuclear power amirite?

Now you're saying we slowed down their inexorable march to build nukes? WHAT???

[geek tragedy]

18. very telling that you have to resort to attacking strawmen in order

to justify towing the Netanyahu/Cheney line on Iran.

Not terribly mature.

[Dreamer Tatum]

19. Netanyahu is in power in Israel. Cheney is retired.

I am not sure why those two men hold such sway over you, but they are meaningless to every other American, and specifically President Obama.

You are selling a false dilemma.

[Aerows]

24. Not really

You have openly and vehemently stated your opposition to this deal.

Not just on this thread, but many others.

Perhaps if you would just point out why you are so uncomfortable with it, there could be an honest discussion.

It's difficult to discuss anything with someone that is adamantly against something, while insisting that they are not, and implying all sorts of vague problems with the deal.

[Dreamer Tatum]

26. If Iran lives up to the deal as outlined so far, then it's a good deal.

But I doubt they will. In the meanwhile, the end of the sanctions makes them stronger in the region, as does the confusion across the Middle East, and we are already seeing the effects of their rivalry with Saudi Arabia.

I am not the sort of person who doesn't care what happens because Bush is to blame for it all. I am more interested in the incentives countries now have in light of the deal, and NONE of them look very good. It may well be that the deal is the best outcome of many bad ones, but then again that's only if Iran is to be trusted. Given the various power vacuums in the ME, what incentive does Iran have not to try to wield power and influence, and how much better to assert dominance than to have nukes? If their calculus is to accept the deal and plan for the resulting economic power to translate into peaceful influence, then I suppose that's the best we can hope for, under that scenario they have an incentive to keep to the agreement. If, on the other hand, they want to be dicks and fulfill their stated desire to annihilate Israel, then all bets are off, and the deal just touches off an arms race. Which, as I said, migh have happened anyway.

But by all means, let's toss all nuance and pragmatism aside. We can blame Bush and Cheney and use words like "cabal," after all.

[Aerows]

28. I'm puzzled.

How did this become all about Bush and Cheney? I don't recall blaming Bush and Cheney for having an agreement that Iran will not develop nuclear weapons. I wasn't aware that either of them were at the table.

Do you support a Bush/Cheney approach then? What might that approach be?

There are so many vague accusations loaded into that response that it's difficult to understand what your true issue is with it.

Can you state more plainly the approach you would have favored?

[Aerows]

25. For someone that is trying to be vague

but has presented vociferous opposition to the deal but won't elucidate why, while pretending otherwise in this thread, it's kind of interesting, these posts.

If Dreamer Tatum would discuss this honestly and state the objections he or she has, then we can have a real dialogue instead of this foggy, disgruntled and plainly unsettled conversation he or she seems to be having with everyone that is applauding this development.

[Jester Messiah]

34. They'll be fine. There's always someone needing killin'. [nt]

[Fred Sanders]

3. If Saudi starts babbling on about the 6 Nation, UN and World sanctioned Deal....stop refuelling their fighter jets.

[geek tragedy]

4. it's interesting, there seems to be tacit alliance developing

between Israel, Egypt, and the Gulf states.

[napkinz]

5. ...

[bemildred]

7. Mogherini has been a real improvement. nt

[geek tragedy]

8. only woman amongst the major figures there, correct? nt

[bemildred]

12. She stands out.

I have not seen this side of her before, her public statements have been mushy, but maybe she is not the mouthy type. She has been very steady in getting the fighting stopped in Ukraine too.

Yep, you can spot her easily by the white coat, in the middle.

[bemildred]

20. I see one other woman in this onem is that LaGarde?

[geek tragedy]

22. looks like her, she would be there for sanctions mechanics, right? nt

[bemildred]

23. Yep. nt

[randome]

10. If they talk like losers and act like losers...they are losers.

The more we define them as powerful but shadowy figures who control us, the more power we cede to them.

They are losers. Keep calling them that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[arely staircase]

15. kick nt

[Jefferson23]

21. So long losers, the boogeyman bullshit that Iran was the next great Satan has been squashed.

They never were, not like some of the losers on that list who have lethal ideas and
have acted upon them.

Obama has really fucked with the neocons, this is a monumental shift. More people
around the world will see who the aggressors are and who are not.

Do supporters of Israel even know how many nuclear scientists they assassinated,
or maybe that is justifiable too..like the occupation of Palestinians for 50 odd years.
As long as Israeli policy continued unchecked on nukes and unchecked power over
the Palestinians, no one had better dare to help arm those Palestinians, else
they'll be bombed too. Was a pretty good gig, from their perspective.

Time is up Netanyahu, you lost this one.

[JDPriestly]

27. We shouldn't count our chickens before they hatch.

The agreement is not final. We only have the preliminary outline of an agreement, plus the political stage on which the agreement, assuming it is finalized, will be carried out could change drastically. To be overly happy about this agreement is to assume that Republicans will not win the White House in 2016 and the situation in the Middle East will remain calm enough to allow any agreement that is finalized to be carried out pretty completely. There is a lot of time yet for things to go wrong. We have to be very careful that the principles underlying this agreement are met and the goals accomplished. We have a long way to go. If the regime in Iran changes and becomes more conservative -- what then?

Too soon to be euphoric. There is lots of work to be done to make this agreement real.

[Warpy]

29. Meanwhile, that idiot Netanyahu

is screaming that an agreement to abandon a nuclear program will spur a nuclear arms race.

What the hell is the matter with that rotten man? Doesn't he know the difference between abandoning a nuclear weapons program and starting one?

He's seriously unstable and should be removed from office. I was hoping the coalition would insist on it but for their own bizarre reasons, they didn't.

He is a madman. He wants WWIII.

[PatrynXX]

30. don't trust Iran but.....

they aren't high up on the worry wart problem sheet. maybe Putin #2 and North Korea way up top


then the ISIL ants who are rather tiny but shout big

[CanonRay]

31. Saudi Arabia and Iran

Two sides of the same religious nutjob coin. Both are Theocratic dictatorships. At least a large number of Iranians are modern-thinking.

[former9thward]

32. The House of Saud is a big winner.

They will now get the bomb.

[libdem4life]

33. I look forward to the day when we need not identify "the woman" in the lineup by her red

clothing (usually) or the white amongst the dark hues of The Men. Call my cynical and sexist, or anti-sexist, but ... oh, well. JMHO

[Cha]

35. I agree with that.. "My favorite set of losers since Romney and Ryan."