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kpete

(71,979 posts)
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 10:31 AM Apr 2015

Tweety gets it right: "You are wrong, wrong, wrong, over & over again & you never get ashamed of it"


Chris Matthews slams GOP spokesman for shamelessness and misunderstanding of history

Like you guys ought to have been embarrassed about the Iraq war. And never apologized for that. You are wrong, wrong, wrong, over and over again and you never get ashamed of it. And you keep making the most outrageous things. Comparing this President to being in bed with Hitler is disgusting."


one of Tweety's best moments:



MORE:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/04/05/1375740/-Chris-Matthews-slams-GOP-Ron-Christie-for-shamelessness-on-Iran-deal-and-historical-ignorance
66 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Tweety gets it right: "You are wrong, wrong, wrong, over & over again & you never get ashamed of it" (Original Post) kpete Apr 2015 OP
Yes!! Let's hold them to the Iraq war and the devastation it has caused in the Middle East katmondoo Apr 2015 #1
Tweety? You mean, the guy who had this to say about "Mission Accomplished"? Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #2
one & the same kpete Apr 2015 #4
Yeah, but the wind is blowing in a different direction PCIntern Apr 2015 #5
LOL@Rethug codpiece! Tweety got his start as cable news took over with the Clenis, though. freshwest Apr 2015 #54
Yeah, the guy who is pissed off that Republicans lied about Iraq, 'Mission Accomplished' was a lie Bluenorthwest Apr 2015 #7
You and "A Simple Game" below have it most right IMHO stevenleser Apr 2015 #47
So what? qazplm Apr 2015 #11
But the problem is BumRushDaShow Apr 2015 #16
In Chicago Tweety is what we call a wind sock Doctor_J Apr 2015 #12
Even Tweety can see the light treestar Apr 2015 #14
Tweety is good with history, but when it is happening not so much. A Simple Game Apr 2015 #33
Bush's and Cheney's lies were chronicled here on DU from Day 1 Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #50
Beat me to it. I post that occasionally. Anytime someone is impressed with Matthews over brewens Apr 2015 #15
And he trashed a REAL HERO when he made that ridiculous statement, George McGovern. sabrina 1 Apr 2015 #24
His fawning and gushing over Bush was truly vomit-inducing Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #52
Yeah tweety was an Iraq war supporter too. He too was wrong wrong wrong. on point Apr 2015 #27
Remember his "we're all neoCONS now" moment? calimary Apr 2015 #29
^^^this^^^ L0oniX Apr 2015 #44
It was a truly cringe-worthy performance Art_from_Ark Apr 2015 #56
I was watching it live, and I DID want to throw a brick at the TV. calimary Apr 2015 #66
Matthews turned into a neocon apologist almost overnight. Major Hogwash Apr 2015 #58
Every body can be wrong. Admitting it is the hard, an noble, thing to do, however. Adrahil Apr 2015 #65
So says the man who pooped out the words "We're all neocons now..." and who Guy Whitey Corngood Apr 2015 #3
I'm almost afraid to ask, but what is whathehell Apr 2015 #23
I guess this is as good as explanation as any: Guy Whitey Corngood Apr 2015 #25
Omg Paulie Apr 2015 #53
it's one of those things that is pretty much exactly what it sounds like Scootaloo Apr 2015 #51
It's unusual that he didn't start Gman Apr 2015 #6
This dressing down based on facts Greybnk48 Apr 2015 #8
He's a mouthpiece for the power establishment, plain and simple, ronnie624 Apr 2015 #9
Way to go Tweety! Enthusiast Apr 2015 #10
His convictions are like the leaves of a tree, ronnie624 Apr 2015 #13
I know he is a TOOL kpete Apr 2015 #17
His words are definitely true. ronnie624 Apr 2015 #21
BAM! R&K nt longship Apr 2015 #18
What Chris Matthews doesn't understand is that they are talking to their Baitball Blogger Apr 2015 #19
Tweetie has a hard-on for more war in the Mid-East. Paladin Apr 2015 #20
Tweety? George Beerlover Apr 2015 #22
I've always wondered that too ... brett_jv Apr 2015 #30
"Tweety": an early DU reference to his Lady Clairol Blonde hair, which cycled among shades of yellow Hekate Apr 2015 #37
Plus that big head of his. There is a marked resemblance. freshwest Apr 2015 #55
LOL yes Hekate Apr 2015 #59
the color of his hair Skittles Apr 2015 #46
Yep. I really enjoyed that segment -and to think I was going to skip his show again. For some reason BlueCaliDem Apr 2015 #26
Chris Matthews is one of my regulars, good exchange, Chris did not bow to the RW recorded Thinkingabout Apr 2015 #28
Damn! That was a fairly comprehensive ass whuppin! 11 Bravo Apr 2015 #31
This type of damning rebuttal should now be coming from all sane Americans ... DrBulldog Apr 2015 #32
It should at least be coming from our Dem representatives. L0oniX Apr 2015 #43
"You neither understand history nor this agreement Ron" AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #34
Thank you, AA.. I appreciate Tweety for what he's saying now. Not whining about his past. Excellent Cha Apr 2015 #39
True, but unfortunately, he left the big stinking LIES from the GOP mouthpiece stand: freshwest Apr 2015 #57
Mahalo for the EarlG Graphic, Fresh1 Cha Apr 2015 #60
ouch. blackspade Apr 2015 #35
Tweety: this is why we are fond of him in spite of everything. Hekate Apr 2015 #36
This is why so many of us have a love/hate relationship with Tweety Bird. Rex Apr 2015 #38
He gushes over Rand Paul AgingAmerican Apr 2015 #63
I don't have cable anymore, but even if I did I would not watch him. Rex Apr 2015 #64
Mahalo kpete.. Cha Apr 2015 #40
If Christie's brains were petrol hifiguy Apr 2015 #41
So Tweety has a once in a year moment of clarity. It was still deliciously enjoyable. L0oniX Apr 2015 #42
thanking Mr. Matthews Skittles Apr 2015 #45
Even a blind squirrel Thespian2 Apr 2015 #48
I commend Chris on shaming one tavernier Apr 2015 #49
Sociopaths don't get ashamed.. so there's that. Who knew there were so many gd many of them?!!!!! Cha Apr 2015 #61
Desperate maindawg Apr 2015 #62

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
2. Tweety? You mean, the guy who had this to say about "Mission Accomplished"?
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 10:47 AM
Apr 2015

"MATTHEWS: Do you think this role, and I want to talk politically [...], the president deserves everything he's doing tonight in terms of his leadership. He won the war. He was an effective commander. Everybody recognizes that, I believe, except a few critics. Do you think he is defining the office of the presidency, at least for this time, as basically that of commander in chief? That [...] if you're going to run against him, you'd better be ready to take [that] away from him."

"MATTHEWS: Let me ask you, Bob Dornan, you were a congressman all those years. Here's a president who's really nonverbal. He's like Eisenhower. He looks great in a military uniform. He looks great in that cowboy costume he wears when he goes West. I remember him standing at that fence with Colin Powell. Was [that] the best picture in the 2000 campaign?"

http://mediamatters.org/research/2006/04/27/mission-accomplished-a-look-back-at-the-medias/135513

PCIntern

(25,514 posts)
5. Yeah, but the wind is blowing in a different direction
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 10:49 AM
Apr 2015

today…

wait 18 months…he'll be foaming at some other Rethug's codpiece...

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
7. Yeah, the guy who is pissed off that Republicans lied about Iraq, 'Mission Accomplished' was a lie
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:03 AM
Apr 2015

and Matthews believed it. Many people did. Bush was telling a massive lie, with our military as props and high drama.
However, when you look at others who bought the lie and later recanted, you find actual mongers of war, promoters of the invasion, mockers of those who opposed the war. Cheerleaders for Cheney, such as Andrew Sullivan, who wrote the following lovelies....
"Almost the whole academic class, the media elites, the college-educated urbanites, the entertainment industry and so on are now reflexively anti-war. Worse in fact: there is very little argument or debate going on in these sub-populations, simply an assumption that war against Saddam is wrong, and that all right-thinking people agree about this."

"Suddenly, September 10 again. Friends calling from New York City, asking if I have a spare room. Nervous glances up at the TV screens in the gym. Greta van Susteren declaring a specific cyanide alert in New York City, where none existed. Duct tape jokes. Tanks at Heathrow. It is a war, isn't it? It reminds me that the anti-war protestors are not in fact trying to prevent a war. They cannot -- because one has already broken out. They merely want to give up on one critical front.
The trouble is: our enemies won't. "

" As regular readers know, I've long advocated cutting France out of any post-war Iraqi settlement. No oil contracts, no peace-keepers, no influence as far as we can help it. Charles Krauthammer makes the same point today. After what the French have tried to do to destroy American diplomacy, wreck Tony Blair, and delay a war until it might actually be more dangerous for American troops, they deserve more than indifference."
More context of the time here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/03/behold-the-hatred-resentment-and-mockery-aimed-at-anti-iraq-war-protesters/274230/

 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
47. You and "A Simple Game" below have it most right IMHO
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 08:46 PM
Apr 2015

Matthews initially got it wrong on the Iraq aftermath. OK, fine, none of us get everything right. He has been pretty much right on everything after that and has gone after the perpetrators of that disaster with a vengeance. I don't think he will ever trust a Republican again, good lesson learned.

qazplm

(3,626 posts)
11. So what?
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:28 AM
Apr 2015

Matthews is a guy who likes the game of politics, whichever side it is played on.

He clearly like the spectacle presented there as masterful political theater, and it was, and at the moment, it looked like he might be able to pull it off with minimal damage. Of course that wasn't true, but at that moment, to Matthews, it looked so.

That it was based on a lie obviously took him longer to figure out.

But he did figure it out. I find the fact that folks discount everything he says or does since fairly silly.

BumRushDaShow

(128,714 posts)
16. But the problem is
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:43 AM
Apr 2015

that "spectacle" of "masterful political theater" cost a trillion dollars, millions of refugees, and many hundreds of thousands of deaths and injuries. And his claim of being on "our side" but not calling them out, helped to bolster the bogus arguments from the RW loons who own most of the media.

The irony of all this being that 3 years later in 2006 after that excerpt was uttered, and despite his effusive propping up of that administration, the Democrats were thankfully able to retake the House after 12 years of GOP control - notably because of the mishandling of the war.

He has proven himself over and over of being nothing but "entertainment" for ratings.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
12. In Chicago Tweety is what we call a wind sock
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:31 AM
Apr 2015

When there's a prevailing wind blowing he's all puffed up. Otherwise he just sits there waiting for one.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
14. Even Tweety can see the light
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:34 AM
Apr 2015

at least temporarily He's one who seems to say the right thing once in a while. The rest of the time he's an idiot.

A Simple Game

(9,214 posts)
33. Tweety is good with history, but when it is happening not so much.
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 01:27 PM
Apr 2015

It takes a while for it to sink in but he does get it eventually.

As for Iraq? A lot of people didn't think a sitting President and his entire administration could so blatantly lie to an entire nation.

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
50. Bush's and Cheney's lies were chronicled here on DU from Day 1
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 12:53 AM
Apr 2015

The manner in which Bush entered into the White House was also highly tainted, as was the way in which Cheney avoided the Constitutional prohibition of both President and Vice President being residents of the same state. And Bush started bombing Iraq just a couple of weeks after he entered the White House. It was obvious to anyone who was paying attention that the Bush administration was up to no good.

brewens

(13,557 posts)
15. Beat me to it. I post that occasionally. Anytime someone is impressed with Matthews over
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:34 AM
Apr 2015

what he's now saying about Iraq.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
24. And he trashed a REAL HERO when he made that ridiculous statement, George McGovern.
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:18 PM
Apr 2015

Airc, he asked if people could even imagine a Liberal, like McGovern, 'strutting like that, acting like a hero'. Or words to that effect. I remember having to post McGovern's actual war record for right wingers, something Dems for some reason, fail to do, to attack Right Wing Chicken Hawks on THEIR 'non hero war records' while allowing them to attack actual War heroes like McGovern.

Tweety is a tool. And amazingly ignorant at times. Not a nice person, he plays both sides of the fence for whatever reason.

Stopped watching him long ago, even though once in a while he does something like this.

I also remember him saying, re Bush's Mission Accomplished routine, that 'women love this stuff'!!

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
52. His fawning and gushing over Bush was truly vomit-inducing
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 12:58 AM
Apr 2015

MATTHEWS: The president there -- look at this guy! We're watching him. He looks like he flew the plane. He only flew it as a passenger, but he's flown --

CADDELL: He looks like a fighter pilot.

MATTHEWS: He looks for real. What is it about the commander in chief role, the hat that he does wear, that makes him -- I mean, he seems like -- he didn't fight in a war, but he looks like he does.

on point

(2,506 posts)
27. Yeah tweety was an Iraq war supporter too. He too was wrong wrong wrong.
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:48 PM
Apr 2015

Haven't heard him apologize either, but nice to know he realizes it was a mistake at least

calimary

(81,179 posts)
29. Remember his "we're all neoCONS now" moment?
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:48 PM
Apr 2015

Watching george w. dry-drunk prancing around in his stuffed flight suit on the deck of that aircraft carrier in the most shamelessly-manipulated, staged, and utterly phonied-up photo op EVER. He was practically drooling. I'll never forget his own shamelessness: "Lookit! Look at that! He's such a GUY! I think Americans want a GUUUYYYYYYYYYYYYY for president! Americans like a GUUUYYYYYYYYYYYYY for president!"

While, on another network, another slobbering drooling sycophant was even more shamelessly burbling - "Look! Look at that! Lookit the PACKAGE on that guy!!!"

Art_from_Ark

(27,247 posts)
56. It was a truly cringe-worthy performance
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 01:24 AM
Apr 2015

If I had been watching it live, I might have thrown a brick at the TV.

calimary

(81,179 posts)
66. I was watching it live, and I DID want to throw a brick at the TV.
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 01:50 PM
Apr 2015

I wanted to throw a fews expletives at his face - if only I were close enough. But he was completely swept away by - and into - the staging and perception management of the bush/cheney White House. Everybody was swept up. What a man! What a strut! Look at that stuffed crotch - he must be seven-feet-long and as big around as a Giant Sequoia! Pant! Pant! Sigh! Sigh! I think America wants a GUYYYYYYYYYY for President! They like a GUYYYYYYYYYYYYY for President. He's the kind, when he gets excited, he spews spit drops when he talks. Those droplets could have spewed straight through the TV screen. He was like a frickin' Rain Bird sprinkler that day.

INFURIATING. It was so damn easy to see through. EVEN BEFORE we heard that they turned the carrier around so you wouldn't see it was moored just off the San Diego coast. The staging was so complete with the big banner arranged just so - just above where he stood to speak at the podium they set up on the deck so all the cameras would be sure to see it in frame. The positioning of the special troop escort members in their multicolor jumpsuits. We later snickered that they'd brought the Teletubbies out to meet him. Just ridiculous. Embarrassing. Fraudulent. A big fat FRAUD that day. "Mission Accomplished." Yeah - MY ASS. Just humiliating for America, for all the world to see, the fawning worship of this fucking fraud and warmonger and THIEF of the Presidential Election. It was infuriating!!!

What made it so horrible was how NO ONE was questioning it. NO ONE was mentioning how contrived and artificial it was. The reagan era trained 'em well, I'll concede that. All the Old Hollywood Busby Berkeley staging and Gigantor-size American flags and crap. As though if you just STAGED it well enough, that would be THE outward sign of just how Super-American you were! How if they cut you you would bleed red, white, and blue. CRINGEworthy. Eight years of that shit back in the '80s. And then, this again in the first decade of the 21st Century, too. AWFUL. Fucking phonies!!! It made the whole country look like such clowns on the world stage. The rest of the world didn't have fawning media lapdogs so they all knew the truth. It was the American media consumer who didn't, who was kept in the dark and fed bullshit like the proverbial mushrooms. That was the veritable Mushroom Generation.

SOOOOOOO glad we got to turn the page with the Obama years. RELIEVED! It was so galling how many people were taken in by bush/cheney, fell for it hook line and sinker, swallowed it whole without even chewing it a little. There was PLENTY of information to the contrary. There was PLENTY of truth out there. NONE of it was listened to, or given even a split-second of air time or face time. And ol' Tweety was right out there in front, like some drunken majorette. Leading the parade of lemmings with his loud voice and his showers of excited spittle.

HORRIBLE days. HORRIBLE HORRIBLE days. And Tweety swallowed it all. And shat it all back out to force-feed to the rest of us.

Major Hogwash

(17,656 posts)
58. Matthews turned into a neocon apologist almost overnight.
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 01:40 AM
Apr 2015

For money!!

Hope he enjoys his 30 pieces of silver.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
65. Every body can be wrong. Admitting it is the hard, an noble, thing to do, however.
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 01:07 PM
Apr 2015

I've heard Matthews admit he was wrong on more than one occasion.

Nothing wrong with that.

But when you're wrong, admit it! The problem with Republicans is they can't ever admit it, and frankly they have so trained themselves to ignore evidence that they probably don't even really THINK they were wrong!

Guy Whitey Corngood

(26,500 posts)
3. So says the man who pooped out the words "We're all neocons now..." and who
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 10:48 AM
Apr 2015

spent as much time as anyone else in media obsessing over Clinton's cock. I get that people can change. But in this case all we have is a name dropping, Tim Russert taint licking, teleprompter reading opportunist who's never uttered what could be considered an original thought.

Gman

(24,780 posts)
6. It's unusual that he didn't start
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 10:50 AM
Apr 2015

Trying to shout them down by redirecting and playing the victim.

Greybnk48

(10,167 posts)
8. This dressing down based on facts
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:03 AM
Apr 2015

is a joy to watch. I had issues with Chris Matthews in the past, but I'm ready to let them go.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
9. He's a mouthpiece for the power establishment, plain and simple,
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:15 AM
Apr 2015

and the "deal" with Iran isn't as complicated as he claims. The goal is simply to diminish Iran's ability to deter US impunity in the Middle East. Our policies there are about controlling energy, and not another damned thing else.

Enthusiast

(50,983 posts)
10. Way to go Tweety!
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:26 AM
Apr 2015

These fucking Republicans do not have a clue. This dipshit was just repeating official GOP talking points which have absolutely no basis in reality.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
13. His convictions are like the leaves of a tree,
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:32 AM
Apr 2015

bending and swaying to whatever direction the political winds blow. He disseminates propaganda for military contractors, and therefore serves the interests of power and profit, and nothing else.

kpete

(71,979 posts)
17. I know he is a TOOL
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:45 AM
Apr 2015

but tools can be useful to build or destroy
and sometimes....... they hit the nail on the head




peace,
kp

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
21. His words are definitely true.
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:04 PM
Apr 2015

Within a narrow framework.

Framing political debate and maintaining a common world-view among working class Americans, is the US media establishment's primary function. I never lose sight of this fact.

Baitball Blogger

(46,697 posts)
19. What Chris Matthews doesn't understand is that they are talking to their
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:51 AM
Apr 2015

supporters. The more they get away with on public t.v., the more they keep their supporters from questioning ideas that have harmed our country, and is also turning them into racists.

 

George Beerlover

(23 posts)
22. Tweety?
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:12 PM
Apr 2015

I'm clearly not in on the joke. Which is fine, because he's exactly right! The Christies and the Kristols and the Krauthammers have been wrong about EVERYTHING for more than a decade!

brett_jv

(1,245 posts)
30. I've always wondered that too ...
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:57 PM
Apr 2015

My guess has always been that there's just a perceived physical resemblance between the man and the cartoon character, but was never sure.

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
37. "Tweety": an early DU reference to his Lady Clairol Blonde hair, which cycled among shades of yellow
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 03:36 PM
Apr 2015

....including that favored by the famous cartoon birdie.

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
26. Yep. I really enjoyed that segment -and to think I was going to skip his show again. For some reason
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:44 PM
Apr 2015

I didn't that day, and I truly enjoyed watching and listening as Chris Matthews schooled ex-Cheney spokesperson, Ron Christie, for his arrogance and willful ignorance.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
28. Chris Matthews is one of my regulars, good exchange, Chris did not bow to the RW recorded
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 12:48 PM
Apr 2015

talking points.

 

DrBulldog

(841 posts)
32. This type of damning rebuttal should now be coming from all sane Americans ...
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 01:14 PM
Apr 2015

... and such rebuttals need to be seen and heard on all our broadcast news channels, not just cable.

Cha

(297,029 posts)
39. Thank you, AA.. I appreciate Tweety for what he's saying now. Not whining about his past. Excellent
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 07:50 PM
Apr 2015

take down.

We all know he changes with the wind.. but, he has a fairly big pulpit and this was a much needed take-down of LIES by the ******* Liars.

Hekate

(90,616 posts)
36. Tweety: this is why we are fond of him in spite of everything.
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 03:28 PM
Apr 2015

Just when he seems too silly for words (most memorably for the thrill that ran up his leg) he very passionately speaks the truth.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
38. This is why so many of us have a love/hate relationship with Tweety Bird.
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 03:43 PM
Apr 2015

He says the right things, then turns around and panders to warmongers. He is an enigma.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
64. I don't have cable anymore, but even if I did I would not watch him.
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 01:04 PM
Apr 2015

It's just too frustrating to watch him say all the right things one day, then cater to the GOP with softballs the next.

Cha

(297,029 posts)
40. Mahalo kpete..
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 07:53 PM
Apr 2015
"David Axelrod then went on to tell Ron Christie that he neither understands history nor the Iran agreement. He told Christie he was just spouting Republican talking points."

Thanks Tweety and DA!
 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
41. If Christie's brains were petrol
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 07:56 PM
Apr 2015

they wouldn't power a gnat's motorcycle halfway around a BB. Jayzus, what a fucking imbecile.

Good for Tweety, just shouting him down.

tavernier

(12,374 posts)
49. I commend Chris on shaming one
Sun Apr 5, 2015, 11:17 PM
Apr 2015

of their water carriers. I fervently wish that he had included the media who blindly ran with the Bush and Cheney and Rummy ball. He could have opened that conversation with his own Mea Culpa.

Cha

(297,029 posts)
61. Sociopaths don't get ashamed.. so there's that. Who knew there were so many gd many of them?!!!!!
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 02:56 AM
Apr 2015
 

maindawg

(1,151 posts)
62. Desperate
Mon Apr 6, 2015, 07:27 AM
Apr 2015

When you have only the Hitler card left, you are desperate. They have nothing. Zero ideas, no clue. They must double down on the most rediculess crap.All they have are the tired old tricle down lies and dusty old prejudices and no one is afraid of their bad old Al Queda anymore. I dont think the CIA even works to prop up their fear mongering anymore. If we can secure the vote and protect our rights , they will be rendered harmeless. Marginalized to the 33 % of the electorate ,irrelevent as they should be.

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