Discussion- ending militarization of police, police brutality and gov sanctioned murder by LEO.

[marym625]

Let's figure out what we have to do to end this horror.

This is not a new problem. People of color, especially young black men, have been victims of LEO and judicial system oppression, brutality and murder since the beginning of our country. Poor and mentally ill people are next in line when it comes to these horrendous practices

The fact we are seeing it so often is due to technology. The fact we see it happening and still no one is punished is not new. However, the fact we have proof in at least 3 videos now of planted "evidence" is new.

I have been calling my elected officials and writing them to end the practice of the sale and gifting of weapons of war on the federal level for a while now. But how do we overhaul the local level of these practices?

Since I posted that we could possibly have a discussion today to come up with solutions, there has been some movement by a few elected officials discussing this.

Please, give us your thoughts. Let's start a grassroots movement and stop the insanity

A couple articles:
Top US lawmakers to discuss police killings as reform momentum builds
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/16/congress-police-killings-debate-reform?CMP=ema_565


'It's Not Over': Families Of Slain Black Men Call For End To Police Brutality After Shooting Of Walter Scott

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7034528

[marym625]

1. OK, I will start hoping someone will join in

One major change has to be that a local prosecutor cannot be in charge of indicting a police officer. I don't think it should even be a prosecutor. Obviously, has to be a lawyer of some sort, but not anyone that relies on the police 99% if the time

[Downwinder]

2. I asked the local prosecutor:

"Who is supposed to see that law enforcement obeys the law?"

His answer: "That's not my job."

So I ask here: "Whose job is it?"

[marym625]

3. Oh my goodness!

I am seriously shocked at that response.

I have no idea what the answer is then. I didn't even think to ask it.

Thank you so much! I hope someone that knows the answer can reply

[Downwinder]

36. The answer I came up with:

It is the job of each and every citizen.

But, they need the tools to do the job. That is why videos are so important. They also need legal assistance and statutory authority to do their job.

[marym625]

40. I want to discuss this some more

But have to run for a bit

Thanks for all your input!

[marym625]

11. I just did a quick check

It seems that in the majority of police departments across the country, the answer is, the police departments themselves. Internal affairs

I am not sure how old this is but from what I read, it doesn't seem to have changed much

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/guard/ch4.htm

[Downwinder]

15. If people could be self-policing, we would not need police.

[marym625]

17. wow

I seriously never even thought about that. I don't know how that would work.

[Downwinder]

30. I am just saying that police cannot

be depended upon to police themselves.

[marym625]

32. oh. I guess I misread that

Absolutely they cannot.

[Trillo]

4. Only peripherally related, but quotas need to be ended.

When street cops are under pressure from their bosses to constantly ticket to reach some pre-assigned number goal, it disconnects law enforcement from illegal acts and puts them under unreasonable pressure. Consider the following, during some decades of high crime, quotas are established. Next, due to complex and unknown reasons, crime vastly decreases. The arrest or ticketing statistics that were appropriate at a time of high crime are no longer appropriate. As unchanging quotas, more and more minor offenses will be targeted.

Civilian review boards.

[marym625]

7. Great point.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe they have a point system in Chicago or Cook County. I remember checking that quite a while ago but I haven't lately.

Yes, some type of civilian review has to come into play. I completely agree with that.

Now, how do we approach making these changes?

Thank you for responding!

[Faux pas]

5. Kickin'

[marym625]

9. Thank you

[Faux pas]

34. You're welcome

here's another kick for ya!

[marym625]

35. Thank you again!

[ann---]

6. What is LEO?

I wish people who use these abbreviations would tell us what it means.

[marym625]

8. I'm sorry.

I honestly thought I was the only one that didn't know that until the other day. Law enforcement officers

[PinkPotus]

12. Here is a link that, with minimal effort, will allow you to identify nearly any acronym:

http://www.google.com

[ann---]

63. Yeah, that's good, but

if someone is using an acronym - it is a matter of courtesy to
indicate the meaning the first time it is used. At least, that is
what I learned in school.

[cali]

10. One more time: We need a White House Commission on Institutional Racism

including a focus on police departments.

Civilian oversight boards.

All police killings reviewed by the JD

[marym625]

13. I am sorry if I missed you saying that before.

I love it and agree completely. It will be an addition to my calls and letters from now on.

I have been saying that all cases of a police officer causing homicide should be investigated by the DoJ. However, I am losing faith in that. How there have been no federal charges against those that murdered Eric Garner, John Crawford, Tamir Rice, etc is beyond me.

Perhaps the rules in which the DoJ can bring charges should be changed? Or is it Holder?

[cali]

18. sorry, not directed at you. I've posted those suggestions

repeatedly here and gotten practically no response.

There is no law that pds collect and disseminate information on police shootings or claims of brutality in other forms.

[marym625]

19. I have seen you say some of it but not all.

Absolutely the statistics have to be kept and reported.

I plan to take the ideas given here and putting together some type of agenda at the federal, state and local levels.

I truly don't know what else we can do other than to lobby for these changes, nonstop, in unison. I am hoping that we can all say the same thing to all our reps and not let up until the changes are made.

[Bluenorthwest]

33. New law- Death in Custody Reporting Act of 2013, signed by Obama Dec 18, 2014

This at least orders the collection of data on cases of death in custody. Sponsored by Democrat Bobby Scott of Virginia's Third Congressional district.
Text:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr1447/text

Summaries:
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hr1447/summary

[libdem4life]

21. The only thing I'd add is that the Civilian Oversight Board not reside in the area. They are too

easily manipulated by locals...IMO, that's the reason for the State's Righters. To keep it "in the family", so to speak.

But absolutely reviewed by the JD. Just the threat of that might help keep the LEOs "adrenaline pumping" under control. Few want to see themselves on TV and internet over and over with national outrage responding as a Monday Morning Quarterback.

One other suggestion to add in there is anonymity for any "whistleblower/cell phone" so that citizens may film without fearing retribution. Someone mentioned instant streaming. My phone doesn't do that, but if I lived in areas where this is prevalent, I'd get it. I think this one, relatively insignificant, item of technology that almost everyone carries, along with the internet has the power to transform our justice system, at least somewhat.

So many of the Law and Order type shows immediately try to get the surveillance video. Many law breakers have been caught in the act, at least on TV. Being from the Boomer Generation...reading "1984" probably back in 1974 and fearing Big Brother, it did kind of foresee this type of social situation even though there was no internet or cell phones at the time. I think it's turned out that the citizen's power is increasing and catching crooks and abuse of power incidents a bit easier to reveal.

[marym625]

22. Those are great ideas

Thank you for those.

If you sign up for livestream.or another site like that, you can live stream from your phone at any time. Just an fyi.

[dreamnightwind]

52. Here are some cop watch apps

You can just livestream like she said, also there are specific apps written for the purpose. I use Android so searched for those apps, some of them also work on Apple, and I'm sure there are different ones for Apple too.

https://www.google.com/search?q=voice+activated+streaming+app&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=apps+to+record+police+encounter&spell=1
http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2014/11/aclu_launches_mobile_justice_s.html
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/app-recording-online-storing-police-encounters/
http://www.copblock.org/apps/

Beware of the legality for your particular area or context, I don't know the law although I always assumed it is legal to record them so long as you don't interfere with their efforts (I know police often feel differently so that's why I am including a caution).

[libdem4life]

56. Very interesting. Thanks.

[bravenak]

55. I completely agree.

[Comrade Grumpy]

14. We need a national commission on law enforcement standards and practices.

We need civilian oversight with teeth. With the power to punish.

We need police departments, not taxpayers, to take the hit for those wrongful death and excessive force lawsuits.

We need to end the war on drugs.

[marym625]

16. All excellent points!

How, though, would it be possible to have a police department pay? When everything there comes from tax dollars, I think it would then make it impossible for someone deserving to actually receive any funds.

I think that would be great, I just don't know how it would work.

I agree with all you said. I think at the federal level we can continue to push our Senators and Representative to sponsor bills. Obviously, at the local level too. But how, other than emails and phone calls do we make these things happen?

Thank you for your ideas!

[Comrade Grumpy]

23. What else to do?

Okay, my idea about making cops pay maybe isn't workable. Dang!

On the state level:

Support civil asset forfeiture reform (to end "policing for profit&quot , bills demanding transparency and reporting in law enforcement operations (how many SWAT deployments? what results? etc.), bills that would require that an outside agency--not the department involved--investigate police killings. Stuff like that.

How to make that happen?

Meet with legislators. Express your concerns.

Find groups with an interest in these issues. The ACLU is pretty reliable. Churches. Civil rights and poverty organizations. Even libertarian-leaning groups. They don't like overweening police power very much, either.

Form coalitions.

Present proposals.

Support good candidates, challenge bad office-holders. Run for office yourself.

And then there's the whole street protest thing.

[marym625]

25. Great ideas

DU member guillaumeb has a group on the south side of Chicago trying to elicit change. But this is a huge city. There are other groups, of course. We Chicago DUers should try to make a group that is inclusive of all these groups for the sole purpose of causing change in law enforcement and judicial review

Thank you for discussing this. I will post something comprehensive with the ideas next week.

[libdem4life]

24. Insurance. The Police Department is the same as taxpayers. Errors and Omissions-type insurance

that the LEOs pay for. And each time it's used, their rates go up. When they can no longer be insured, they can quit or accept liability themselves...i.e. the way it is for most professionals. There are laws they must obey and if not, they lose their license or right to practice.

Let them plead their cases to the insurance company.

[marym625]

26. I wonder how many departments have lost insurance

I can't fathom Chicago being insurable. At least not without out of this world rates

[libdem4life]

38. I'm talking personal insurance...take classes, take tests, get certified...not just police academy.

Call it the Civilian Oversight Program and Errors and Omissions Insurance...and yes, it has to be federal...without prejudice. If a real estate agent has to carry it in case they miss an easement or the owner fails to disclose something or they get sued for a misleading MLS listing...and it's not cheap...just a few infraction and a license is revoked.

So then professions who have the capacity to take lives need it, too. Same terms...just a few infractions, and a license is gone.

That's why they are getting away with it...no accountability. A real estate file, OTOH, can be 3 " thick, mostly full of Disclosures and all sorts of legal liability accounted for...mortgage, too, of course. Whistleblowers and cell phone video guaranteed anonymity.

There is a charge for the Police Civilian Training...Testing/Certification. It's good for ? years. Continuing Education Units required to maintain Certificate. Pay to renew every ? years. Every death automatically goes to the Federal Commission and just like Ferguson, they come in and review the department's everything. The cesspool they found there is replicated in many places around the US.

Rates are set up by actuary...level of responsibility and risk...just like any insurance. All dash cams and headgear cams. Begins Day Forward...no past taken into account.

Desk Officers...lowest
Public Safety/Service Officers...a bit higher
Street/Car Officers ... higher and have to pass some other level of civilian understanding and the penalties.
Chief and Department (The City pays the Department...the Chief, like the officers, pays his own)...Chief's policy based on how many officers overseen and overall record.

Every infraction, raises the rates like a Point Count. Any lawsuit goes to the insurance company and proceeds from there.
Limit on points...officer may be relieved of duty, time off to recertify and take classes and start over, quit and get % of pension.
Since the Chief is paying also, he's going to make sure that his officers understand the new rules.

Well, it sounds good anyway.

[marym625]

44. That's a good idea

I would have thought that there is currently something like that for police officers. How could they not have to carry something akin to EO insurance,

This is an interesting idea. Thank you for sharing it. I wonder how this would go over with the public.

[libdem4life]

47. IDK, it used to be impossible to sue a public servant. Things change so fast and I guess the

new technology and visibility of what happens is changing things. Cops and Departments are being sued now.

Just watched a TV news clip about a cop who was wearing a camera helmet, facing a young man who was not rational and may or may not have had a gun. He just kept walking toward him telling him to get down, but said he felt like this might be a Suicide by Cop so held steady. They got the kid, who was OK.

Even more interesting, is that this officer had purchased the camera helmet himself so that there would always be a record of his actions. That's one smart cop and he gets my complete respect. Because of him, this young disturbed man at least has another chance.

[marym625]

48. We need more like him

But I have to ask, what race was the kid?

[libdem4life]

49. Hard to tell, but he was dark skinned...Hispanic, I think.

I'll bet, especially after the news coverage, that Department finds ways to get cameras for the others. What an example.

Just remembered, he even told him to take his hand out of his pocket, not only did the kid not obey, he put his other hand in his pocket. I think the cop was Hispanic, too. Even though I knew how it ended, you could feel the tension.

[marym625]

51. There's no doubt that it's a very difficult job

But too many make it much easier by shooting no matter what.

I am glad that kid had the cop that answered the call is the one that did. Easily could have gone bad, fast

[marym625]

20. kicking because I am hoping for more ideas

Not just in what we need to change, remove or add to get this insanity stopped but how best to go about doing it

[DustyJoe]

27. careful with federal oversight

A federal police force is rarely the answer to local problems, ask the mexican populace how the federales are viewed.

Would a federal cop be less racist than a local cop ?
I doubt it.

[marym625]

28. hmm.

Good point. But would a federal investigation into a local shooting be considered the same thing? And if not a federal agency, than who?

[libdem4life]

41. Don't get the reference to Mexico...but the point being...they are NOT cops. They are trained to

oversee, review, make recommendations, or turn it over to the Justice Department. They create the curriculum and tests for certification. Not FBI or CIA, either. Kind of like the FCC. They become the next step if the insurance company wants to bring it up.

Again, this is the way most professions are governed. It's not rocket science...just unfamiliar to those who think a badge and a gun gives them immunity should they "fear for their lives". And those on the street acting for or against civilians bear a larger responsibility and danger, so the better they need to be trained.

[F4lconF16]

29. A good article from Socialist Worker.

http://socialistworker.org/2015/01/06/the-problem-is-the-barrel

...snip...

The police came into being as a social institution to control crowds and to keep dissent at bay, not to catch the bad guys and lock them up. That explains the function the cops play today. They are an arm of the state that answers to the political elite, who themselves answer to the business elite.

What the police do and how they conduct themselves is not something that the general public is allowed to have any power over. Who decided that the best way to fight crime is to constantly patrol the poorest, most segregated urban areas, arresting nonviolent violators of drug laws--overwhelmingly people of color--rather than station officers to sit outside corporate boardrooms and arrest the corporate criminals? We know that tens of trillions of dollars were stolen from American taxpayers during the 2008 Wall Street crisis--yes, stolen--yet none of these criminals go to prison.

...snip...

I AM for curtailing any powers the police have--whether through civilian police review boards, or taking away their tanks and military equipment, or making cops wear body cameras, or disarming them, or just having fewer of them around. But whatever success we have in achieving that, we have to understand that we are never going to change the nature of cops' mission.

...snip...

We should organize to rein in the police and to redirect the resources that go into law enforcement toward education or jobs--anything else but the cops. But no matter how hard we try, nothing will ever change the unfair, unjust and biased way they operate--because the police are the first line of defense for maintaining a massively unfair, unjust and biased system.

I think we need to recognize that these problems can't be solved in the system we have now. The issues can be allieviated, perhaps, but never solved. Ultimately, the police are not on our side.

http://socialistworker.org/2014/12/10/police-are-different-from-us

If we're going to make a substantial change, we need to start organizing and protesting. Up here in Seattle, the Black Lives Matter movement has done an excellent job at keeping issues like the new multi-hundred-million dollar youth jail in the news. Protest is still our best option--it is visible, and makes the elite nervous.

http://socialistworker.org/2014/09/15/only-protest-will-hold-police

I think we need to protest, now. That is the best thing we can do. Taking to the streets creates awareness. It galvanizes support (and opposition, arguably not a bad thing). And then we need to commit to a long term change in our system. This means refusing to elect Democrats that will not go after the prison complex, refusing to elect "tough on crime" Dems, refusing to elect Dems that will continue cutting social safety nets and worsen the problem, refusing to elect those who will not call out the MIC. It means working our asses off to get far-left candidates (and I mean far left, not 3rd way bullshit "far left&quot , if not elected, in the face of those who are. Chuy Garcia is a perfect example of what we need to do. It's tough, because all the power and money are against us. But protest keeps awareness high, and will enable us to get those candidates on the ticket. The neoliberals will continue to hurt themselves, and will provide us with plenty of opportunity.

[marym625]

31. excellent article!

Thank you. Puts some things in perspective.

Absolutely we have to overhaul the current system. I think that civilian input into hiring practices should be a part of it.

Thanks for your thoughts and information

[Glassunion]

37. This is an exercise in futility.

Yes it sucks.

No it will never end.

[marym625]

39. We can't not try.

[Glassunion]

42. As long as there is money to be made, it cannot be stopped.

It will take a societal collapse.

[marym625]

46. I still believe we have to try

[libdem4life]

50. Past time, but I'm beginning to be a bit encouraged over the new attention and focus because

of the cell phone and cameras. A majority of people have no clue about this, but now it's coming out, don't like what they see.

There's a news story in my Post 49 that's really good...Helmet cams, dash cams, citizen cell phones...things will be changing because it's out of the dark and into the public light.

[Dan de Lyons]

43. Ask a policeman for directions every day

They are here to help us. Keeping them engaged in all the ways they can help us will keep their role from being redefined into being our jailors.

Be sure to say "Thank you". That puts them in their place.

[marym625]

45. I don't think that will stop what is going on

[Dan de Lyons]

53. Of course, much more is needed

Leadership is needed. Revolutionary leaders who understand public administration. Global leadership of the labor movement. Labor organizers.

The strikes of the fast food workers and the call for increases in the minimum wage suggest a growing polarization along classical class lines. After decades of dumping on 'world government', the corporatist class is now out to create its own quasi-government that trumps national governments. This may not turn out as they planned.

Outing the TPP simply has to happen - the information vacuum is building. How will TPP affect the tar-sands pipeline? There are so many questions to be asked.

The increasing visibility of 'the way things are' works much more in our favor than in theirs. The internet is a patient inquisitor, and the daily unpacking of story after story, layer by layer, should send a shudder through those whose trail is tainted.

Dinosaurs became monstrously large before they died out. There can be some defects to gigantism. The Earth is round, growth is finite, and Ayn Rand's vision of perpetual expansion is a candle near the end of its wick.

[marym625]

59. absolutely agree

Funny you should mention Ayn Rand. I just said on some post the other day that Atlas Shrugged. But not in the way Rand expected.

There is no doubt this is just an offshoot of the horror of our corpocracy. The systemic racism is part of the control, just like the laws taking control away from each woman when it comes to her own body. The push to completely do away with minimum wage to control the poor. The incarceration of people of color, of debtors, of women because they had the audacity to have a miscarriage or worse, terminated their pregnancy. Each day we see more and more control from the powers that be forced upon those that are seen as lesser than.

It's a frightening time we are living in.

[dreamnightwind]

54. Thanks for your efforts

I see a lot of good ideas in this thread, not many clear paths though of how to bring them about. Pretty much the same here, a few ideas, not a clue how to make them happen.

One thing that strikes me when I see videos of police violence, is the police often seem to have dehumanized the suspects. They aren't seeing them as individuals with human problems, they are seeing them as vermin that need to be imprisoned or eliminated. This is a cultural and spiritual problem. I think training could go a long way in this regard. They should be trained to be compassionate and to recognize the humanity in the people they police, even if they have to arrest them. It might sound ridiculuous, but I think it addresses a real problem in the appropriate way. We've all seen the statements like "fuck your breath", or a lack of any effort by the cops to resucitate or otherwise keep alive a shooting victim. There's no excuse for that. Coupled with the training there needs to be monitoring of each officer's record, and their careers should be jeopardized when any such behavior is seen. Basically I think they should be trained in nonviolence more than they should be trained in violence.

Also I would like to see police departments decoupled from revenue from any of their policing. There should be zero financial incentive to a department or an individual officer to make arrests, to increase arrests, to write tickets, to confiscate property. The police should be funded entirely from tax revenue. And any revenue from police fines or property confiscation should go to the general treasury.

Finally, we have a lot of crimes that should not be crimes. Legalize drugs and treat their abuse as a health problem not a criminal problem. I don't know about prostitution, I've heard arguments for regulating it but I'm uncertain if that is a good idea. The eventual emergence of self-driving cars might prevent a lot of the need for traffic policing and drunken driving checkpoints.

A lot of crimes are just crimes of being poor, such as someone without a home trying to sleep or go to the bathroom or solicit money when they are desperate. Some property theft and even mugging is also a crime of desperate poverty. So addressing poverty would go a long way towards stopping these crimes (also towards improving our education system, though that's a different issue). Of course addressing poverty is no small matter, a very important one though. We're a wealthy country that could take care of the basic needs of all of its people if it was a system priority (seems our system is more concerned with maximizing returns for stock shareholders).

[marym625]

60. so true

I think if they could, the powers that be would make thinking illegal.

The only thing you mentioned that I don't have a problem with is drunk driving having severe repercussions. Well, you didn't actually say anything about the repercussions. I do have a problem with check points. But no excuse for driving drunk.

Every other thing you said is exactly right. I especially like the idea of training in nonviolence.

You and others have pointed out some very important items that have to be addressed. We need to figure out how to get to the point we can address them. I think many of them can be addressed with the formation of civilian oversight committees.

Thank you for your input

[dreamnightwind]

64. I was saying self-driving cars

will eventually make drunk driving a non-issue, since we won't be driving.

[marym625]

65. ah..sorry

Misunderstood. Thanks!

[Enthusiast]

57. K&R! This post should have hundreds of recommendations!

[marym625]

61. Thank you

I am just happy there are so many ideas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. From extensive work we have done on this

1.- Get rid of a few federal programs. The Byrnes Federal grants are toxic, essential to the War on Drugs and need to go. The 1030 program.... well if DoD wants to get rid of DSLR cameras, and even coffee makers (yes they have one for a PD locally in the database), sure. Winter uniforms for SAR, absolutely. Tents for disasters why not?

I start to get a tad worried with fire arms, and definitely no MRAPs. Hummers... under certain conditions I can see it... see SAR.

2.- Civil Forfeiture programs (which are already under reforms) need to either be truly reformed or go away.

3.- Believe you me, some of the issues actually roll down from the brass. The brass is still either in denial or they don't care... of what is going on.

4.- ALL use of force incidents have to be taken out of the local DA, internal affairs and have to go to a specialized unit from the state. Issue, State police, who investigates them? I am starting to think that we actually need to have a single state police for each state. Too many chiefs, and really small departments are not really capable of getting gear like body cams.

5.- All training will not matter until every officer is forced to admit the implicit racial bias in the force.

6.- Yes, we do have a lot of racial profiling see point about the brass.

7.- Training has to de-emphasize the warrior culture that started to develop BEFORE 911, and emphasize community policing, which also needs LOTS of bodies, It is personnel intensive.

Hope this is just the beginning of a discussion and yes, you can feel free to punch holes.

[marym625]

62. No holes to punch

I was hoping you would respond. I know you have done a lot of work on this.

I am going to go through everything that is posted here, waiting a week for more ideas, and put together a comprehensive list of the changes we want. I will also put in the ideas to implement those changes.

I am going to share that list with a couple of the leaders in Ferguson that have done a great deal of work in this area. I hope we can come up with a plan to make these changes and to make them happen soon.

Since this is just part of a much larger problem, nothing will be permanent without changes in our government. One of the biggest problems is money in politics. That and making corporations people. When a corporation can feel loss, become ill with cancer and dementia, they can't be seen as people under the law.

[DashOneBravo]

66. My .02 worth

1. Get rid of the wannabe SWAT teams. The ones who dress up with military gear but aren't qualified to use them. Set standards that only certified teams can be used.

2. Start going after retirement, houses, cars and any other asset whenever an officer fucks up. You bust in the door of the wrong house and kill somebody then team leaders have to pay. And every police commander who signed off on it is equally responsible.

3. Get rid of the police unions and set up a separate system to hold them accountable.

[marym625]

67. I like it

I would go so far as to say that the majority of the no knock busts should never happen at all. And if there are kids in the house, you don't do it.

The only thing I have an issue with that you said was the police unions. I agree that they have to be changed, big time. But I think everyone deserves a union to represent them. Just don't know how to fix them.

Thank you!

[DashOneBravo]

68. My pleasure Ma'am

Last edited Tue Apr 21, 2015, 02:03 AM - Edit history (1)

I agree about the no knock warrants and think they drive a lot of the untrained LEO's to find a use for that gear.

I can see your point on representation and I'd not considered that. Hopefully they can be reorganized.

I think it's great that you are trying to do something. I'd suggest you contact some of the veterans organizations. A lot of us have been saying this was going to happen after 9/11. You may have allies you didn't know about.

[marym625]

69. Thank you very much for the suggestion

I will do that. I think I will cross post in the group here right now

Thanks again

[damnedifIknow]

70. The whole system could use an overhaul

From the prison industrial complex on down the line. Our way of thinking has to evolve. After all, we are supposed to be civilized correct? Why don't we act like it?

[marym625]

71. I wish I could answer that question

Why don't we act like it?

Hell if I know. When I saw actual calls for torture here on DU, I felt bewildered, betrayed and absolute disgust.

I don't understand