DU was way ahead of the curve- and you ain't seen nothing yet.

[cali]

The TPP and free trade has become the first big issue of the campaign season and its going to get much bigger, particularly if the TPA passes. If it doesn't than the administration won't introduce the TPP or TTIP.

It's going to be a huge deal in the primary. Yesterday in NH, HRC danced around it with vague rhetoric. That won't satisfy many people. Martin O'Malley went after her again on it yesterday without mentioning her by name . The TPP and the TPA are becoming a big deal in Congress. Anyone who thinks this is a minor issue in this election season, doesn't remember the 90s.

The TTlP is still small on the horizon. If the TPA passes, the roar from Europe will become very loud indeed.

This isn't going away, folks, much as the "trust" democrats my wish it. It signals an acrimonious rift between the President and most democrats- in the Congress, in state parties, in organizations that are dem allies. And potentially, between a lot of dems and HRC. She knows that. Her campaign knows that. Hard Choices: She should make some regarding this issue:

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/04/20/the-looming-threat-to-hillary-clintons-2016-campaign/


http://host.madison.com/news/opinion/column/john_nichols/john-nichols-hillary-clinton-should-echo-mark-pocan-on-fast/article_be05ee22-afa3-5b0e-9442-2fc0537baa12.html

[justiceischeap]

1. TPP for dummies

So I've read the Wikipedia article on it and I've seen some things here on DU but I can't say I understand the crux of the resistance to it. Is it basically an expansion of NAFTA? Or worse than that?

[cali]

3. its much larger than nafta

Look, there are three leaked chapters out there. They can be found on a myriad of sites, along with analysis and commentary. At the very least, it will give you insight into the focus of U.S. negotiators.

[marym625]

4. anything that allows; corporations to sue countries

Last edited Wed Apr 22, 2015, 09:21 AM - Edit history (1)

because of laws that hinder the corporation, that allows corporate rule over sovereign nation's laws, that puts American workers in competition with workers in countries that are paid a dollar an hour, cannot be good for us.

I won't pretend I know what has been leaked inside and out. I am far from an expert. But I know what I have read, the leaked portion, the Senators I respect on worker's rights and different articles about it, and this thing sucks.

[Enthusiast]

18. Very well said.

We cannot afford to give up even more manufacturing jobs. And the corporate sovereignty problem is the worst.

[marym625]

47. Thank you

[RiverLover]

5. It really is NAFTA on steroids, so much so that Mexico & Canada want in on it.

Here's a good source for info on the TPP, explore the whole site. Plenty of info.~

"The TPP not only replicates, but expands NAFTA's special protections for firms that offshore U.S. jobs. And U.S. TPP negotiators literally used the 2011 Korea FTA – under which exports have fallen and trade deficits have surged – as the template for the TPP."
http://www.citizen.org/TPP

[justiceischeap]

6. Thanks. I want to understand this issue better

and so far I'm having a difficult time with the things I've found.

If it's anything at all like NAFTA, it can't be good.

[jwirr]

31. I want to know what is in this plan also. Last night the president said that we should "dig into

it if we want to know what it is about". I emailed him and asked how we go about that since it is not available to us.

I hate it that I do not trust him or Hillary on this issue but we cannot just let the politicians do this without us again.

[panader0]

13. Not just Mexico and Canada--

The list: Mexico, Canada, Australia, Brunei, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the US and Vietnam.

[RiverLover]

15. And here are the other countries who have expressed interest in joining in~

South Korea was interested in joining in November 2010,[38] and was invited to the TPP negotiating rounds by the US after the successful conclusion of its Free trade agreement between the United States of America and the Republic of Korea in late December.[39] South Korea already has bilateral trade agreements with some TPP members, but areas such as vehicle manufacturing and agriculture still need to be agreed upon, making further multilateral TPP negotiations somewhat complicated.[40]

Other countries interested in TPP membership include Taiwan,[41] the Philippines,[42] Laos,[43] Colombia,[44] and Indonesia.[45] Cambodia,[46] Bangladesh[47] and India have also been mentioned as possible candidates.[48] Despite initial opposition, China is interested in joining the TPP eventually.[49]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership

[jwirr]

32. What is their motive for wanting in? Are they representing their people or their corporations?

[Sunlei]

67. We can almost count on it Mexico and Canada will be in on this trade deal. especially Canada---

thanks to global warming Canada will be in a wonderful position for global trade. Their NW passage is more ice free every year.

Mexico already allows their citizens to work for $7 a day (for USA Corps) in the border factories that make much of Americans consumer goods. Those Corps will do like they do today with much of those $7.00 worker goods. Sell some to USA citizens and the rest move right to the Houston port and sell it to other countries. USA doesn't make much at all.

Even less USA trucker jobs, now that republicans allowed Mexican semis to do hauling from border to port. in the USA.

[arikara]

71. Correction: Harper and his neo-cons want in

not all Canada though. Definitely NOT all Canada.

[Chathamization]

8. Krugman's take on it is worth reading.

Here. He argues that it won't affect trade that much but seems to be about pushing for stricter intellectual property controls.

[justiceischeap]

9. Thanks. nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

17. thank you for this. n/t

[starroute]

23. The intellectual property provisions are among the worst

They wouldn't just extend copyright terms in all the signatories to the current ridiculous US limits. They would also affect patents -- especially on drugs. They would allow the drug companies to keep extending patents by slight changes in how a drug is presented (for example, from a pill to a capsule). They would send drug prices soaring, especially in countries that have so far found ways around the dominance of the US pharmaceutical industry.

They would also incorporate the framework of the Digital Millennial Copyright Act, under which all it takes is one unsubstantiated claim of copyright infringement to get nervous service providers to remove online content. (As apparently just happened with the uproarious "Grownup Wednesday Addams" parodies.)

They might criminalize any circumventing of digital rights management technologies. (And since the auto industry is currently trying to apply DRM claims to keep people from repairing their own cars, you could wind up doing jail time for working in your own garage.)

And although the provisions on fair use are contentious and it isn't clear what will be in the final draft, it's becoming obvious that the entertainment industry would like to do away with fair use almost entirely -- which could even affect our right to quote from articles here at DU for purposes of discussion and criticism.

[Hissyspit]

26. +1

[Octafish]

33. Serf City USA

A Division of Planet Sweatshop

[TBF]

68. ...

[jwirr]

37. Great read. Why don't they give full copies of TPP to people like Krugman and Reich and other

people we trust if they want us to shut up? I would respect their assessment.

[TBF]

69. Because Krugman would tell us what they say. nt

[sabrina 1]

41. Any Trade Agreement entered into by the US with other countries, should be available to Congress

especially the Trade Committee, where it can be discussed, amendments added where necessary anything that might be harmful to the Working Class in this country, be debated in the open by the people's Representatives.

For several years now, Congress has been denied that Constitutional right. Even the Trade Committee has been refused access to what is in this massive and Secret Agreement.

Regardless of ANYTHING else, this is simply unacceptable. It means that some powerful people have dismissed the US Congress and somehow managed to over rule our Legislative Body by refusing to allow them to look at something they are concocting in secret.

Pressure from the people and from every kind of organization that has an interest in ensuring that Trade Deals BENEFIT the US, finally forced a small concession. The administration allowed members of Congress to take a tiny peek at some of what is in this secret agreement.

Sen. Sherrod Brown however, among others, have found their access to be very restricted and have complained for over a YEAR about issues regarding their lack of access AND NO RESPONSE to their requests.

Worse, now the President is asking that Congress, already in the dark about this bill, FAST TRACK it WITHOUT knowing what is in it.

Fast Tracking, put simply, means Congress gives up its Constitutional duty and power to oversee Legislation, and hands it blindly to the Executive Branch.

Meantime, there have been a few leaks of a few segments of the TPP. And what people suspected, the threat to our Environental Laws, to our Internet Freedom, to the very sovereignty of the US and the other nations involved, has now been confirmed.

Bottom line, as Sherrod Brown said this week, their refusal and outright denial of Congress' right to see this legislation, 'begs the question, What are you hiding'?

If they want this so badly, then all they have to do is to follow our laws. Let the people see what they are up to. Otherwise Congress must refuse to Fast Track the TPP blindly.

George Bush tried this in 2007 and Congress refused. Hopefully they do so again.

[justiceischeap]

42. Thank you!

That sums it up quite nicely in a nutshell (what the immediate issue is).

I'm not a fan of any governance in secret... kinda belies that whole Obama administration promise of transparency and I agree, nothing good can come from this secrecy or ignoring our elected officials to represent us in the issue.

[marym625]

2. She won't have to

This issue will be resolved prior to the general election. She remains vague and if it goes through and is the nightmare we know it is, she can pretend she never supported it. If it doesn't go through and unions, jobs, corporations, etc remain status quo, or worse, she can say she supported it and things would be better with it.

[RiverLover]

7. IF a miracle happens & our congress stops the TPA fast track from passing at this time,

the trade proposals by law have a 5 year shelf life. Fast track can be reintroduced again & again for the next 5 years, hoping to get through.

So if it fails now, the next election & knowing how candidates stand on these "trade" agreements will be critical.

[marym625]

11. sigh

Nothing like perpetual bullshit.

[LuvNewcastle]

14. They'll ram it through after

the next financial crisis, which I think will be definitely within the next five years.

[Sunlei]

61. fast track means republicans can't attach their stupid riders to the deal, like "end obamacare".

personally I am for trade with other countries like Asian group of countries.

I believe the USA should have a part of the trillions in trade deals.

A share of USA exports to the giant and growing consumer markets in for example China and Vietnam

Of course if the USA doesn't sign, fine- USA Corps can and will use Canada, Mexico, plenty of other countries as their sales base but then no revenue, no tax, no shipping work, no jobs to the USA.

[Oilwellian]

20. Except she's on record supporting it

"Free Trade" Advocates Convene at Clinton Global Initiative

Echoing promises of lowered trade barriers, improved labor conditions and environmental protections made by NAFTA advocates two decades earlier, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in Hanoi, Viet Nam in 2012 promoted the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the most far-reaching trade agreement ever, encompassing 12 Pacific Rim countries.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michele-swenson/nafta-the-transpacific-clinton_b_5523327.html

https://vimeo.com/125586178

http://on.aol.com/video/clinton-announces-trans-pacific-trade-agreement-517414661

[marym625]

49. Yes but she won't be clear now

But you are correct and if and until she comes out against it, this is what her position should be seen as

[djean111]

10. Some of us started to post about this - you did, of course! - in 2013.

But no one was really paying attention.
Thanks for keeping us supplied with this information!

[hedda_foil]

12. That is one glorious thing about DU.

We dig deeply into issues well before they hit the MSM, and are willing to overcome our cognitive dissonance when what we discover is emotionally difficult for us. And, for the most part, we are intellectually honest enough to pursue the truth. It's been that way all the way back to 2001.

[appalachiablue]

16. Thanks for the info. and realities-

[rurallib]

19. Can this be stopped in the senate with 41 votes and a threat to filibuster?

if so, are there 41 senators with enough guts to stop it?

[Buzz Clik]

21. This is precisely what DU does best:

Obsess over things for which we limited knowledge but respond with rampant, largely unjustified fear.

Sometimes we end up on the correct side of the argument, and sometimes we don't.

[cali]

24. whatever. hard to deny that we were discussing the tpp

and its importance well before it became such an issue. Characterize that discussion however you desire.

[Buzz Clik]

27. We were discussing how much we hate it before we know what it was.

It's what we do -- fear the unknown.

[Hissyspit]

30. Actually, we were discussing the leaked drafts.

There was known known.

It would help if we knew exactly what was in it, but, you know, secrecy. We should just wait until it is too late to talk about it, I guess.

[cali]

54. fail. 3 important draft chapters have been leaked- The Environmental, Copyright and Investment

Chapters. Many of the "trust" DUers insist that they're only drafts so they're useless. That is patently bullshit. At the very least they give us insight into what USTR negotiators have been pushing for.

[Buzz Clik]

65. Fail? Are you under the impression that you somehow contradicted me?

You did not.

[libdem4life]

60. No, the fact We don't know what's in it and it's going ahead is justified fear and demands action.

Trust me, I'm from the government. Not on this one.

[Buzz Clik]

66. Yeah, as I was saying...

[TheKentuckian]

70. How many times must one fall for the same con, cooked up by the same vultures

to have the sense to be wary? Very, very wary at this point.

Pleasantly surprised is always possible but at this point experience dictates extreme cynicism at bare minimum.

[Hissyspit]

28. Pff

[Buzz Clik]

36. Tons of examples:

1) Climate change (very few DUers actually understand the science)
2) GMOs
3) Anti-vaxxers (nearly all are leftwingers; gratefully, there is huge internal pushback)

The list continues on and on.

When we come down on the side supported by solid information, it is usually by accident.

Enough is know about this subject to be highly skeptical, but we're way beyond skeptical.

[jwirr]

38. NO. So we are just supposed to ignore the climate change scientists? How long is it safe to ignore

them? There is a timeline on this.

GMO that to should be ignored until they have a monopoly? And what most of us want is for the foods to be labeled. Is that so wrong. Do we not have a right to know what kind of food we are buying?

In the recent argument about vaccinations on DU there were few that argued for anti-vaxxers. I think you are wrong on your info on this one. I don't think this issue is a political issue for most. It is a matter of which scientific model you are following. And the original science has been proven false.

In the case of TPP - it is not our fault that we do not have the official plan. The framers do not want us to see it. Are we supposed to ignore it until it is passed and a law? What we do have is people we trust on the issue: Krugman, Reich, Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, and many progressive officials.

You should be working on getting us that "real" info instead of expecting us to ignore the issue.

[Buzz Clik]

43. You missed the point and leaped off on your own thing. Not going there, sorry.

[jwirr]

44. I got your point - wait for the solid imfo. But that is often too late. And that was my point.

[Buzz Clik]

46. No.

When it comes to the scientific issues, the information already exists, but some choose to ignore it:

a) Climate change: the science is in. There's uncertainty but we know we're changing the climate.
b) Vaccines: They are safe, a helluva lot safer than not vaccinating. Uncertainty? Very little. Some side effects? Very few.
c) GMOs: despite the howling from the ignorant, we have tons of solid scientific info demonstrating that the current releases are safe to eat.

Current topic: despite what cali and hissyspit are saying, DU was in full meltdown over this before leaks were released.

Summarizing what I said before: DU is afraid of the unknown, whether it's science based or not.

=========

In the case of TPP - it is not our fault that we do not have the official plan. The framers do not want us to see it. Are we supposed to ignore it until it is passed and a law? What we do have is people we trust on the issue: Krugman, Reich, Bernie, Elizabeth Warren, and many progressive officials.

If that proposal is voted on without it being public, it will not be exclusively the framers' fault. Blame the entirety of Congress.

[jwirr]

48. Yes, Congress. They will have days to get it out to us. If they do not then they share the blame.

[ChiciB1]

50. WELL, At Least We're Obsessing... I've Called My Senator FOUR

times on this, and he's a DINO AT BEST. BILL NELSON from FL who replied by email ONCE! Of course I admit I've called him numerous times regarding other issues so perhaps my number lights up "red" on an incoming list "to be ignored!"

Getting through to Boy Wonder Marco Rubio & my Congress Critter Vern Buchanan is a barrel of fun!

IF our POTUS goes on "Tweety's" Show WITH Chamber peeps and others who believe this is a good deal with few details, when will we be privy to more than Limited Knowledge so we won't obsess?

I'm no big fan of Tweety's but did tune in to see what POTUS would say and came away with a gullet full of emotions that included fear, none of which I've been able to digest completely!

I did hear him talk about the need to have more college educated people so we can compete globally. Getting a college education at 6.4% interest isn't an option for millions of people. What about our crumbling infrastructure that would put millions to work? Do they all need a college education for jobs that might start with pouring a slab of concrete? Sometimes you can get a good education and the opportunity to advance simply by OJT. Make it affordable to work your way up the ladder by attending educational classes that enable you to get certified for a better paying job in that field. Not something that you need 4 years of college and debt up to your eyeballs.

Just look outside your window and I bet you'll easily see just how much rebuilding needs to be done where wearing a suit isn't required. We have fallen behind many countries because we've FORGOTTEN to invest in people who can help us rebuild the foundation that's the glue holding everything together!

[Renew Deal]

22. I agree that it's a big deal.

And I think it will be a much bigger issue than the Iraq War because that was so long ago.

[cali]

40. I don see the Iraq war playing much of a role

[antigop]

25. HRC is boxed in on this issue and the campaign knows it....

She can't come out against the TPP because she played a leading part in drafting it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101667554

If she comes out against it, she will tick off Wall Street and her corporate donors.

If she comes out for it, she will tick off the unions and people who have to work for a living.

She's boxed in.

[mother earth]

29. TPP will be waking up the masses, and later this year perhaps TSHTF with the EU, a storm's a

brewing.

[LiberalArkie]

34. If this goes through, Democrats are toast. The Republicans wanted NAFTA real bad

Clinton gets the historical credit for it. The tea party and people at the bottom blame the D's for Nafta. If this goes though, again the D's will get the blame for what the R's pushed for.

[Oilwellian]

35. It's a classic case of...

the symbiotic good cop, bad cop game they've played for decades.

[fasttense]

39. Doing the same thing over and over again yet claiming there will be different results

How many "free" trade treaties and agreements must be in place before we realize how they are destroying the American economy? How many times will a president get up in front of the American people and claim another "free" trade agreement is going to make our economy better? And then it doesn't, just like all the other "free" trade NAFTA style agreements didn't help our economy.

Do you like the economy now? Do you wish to stay in your current financial situation for the rest of your life? If so, than the TPP is for you. It is just more of the same old agreements like NAFTA that our politicians have been agreeing to for decades. It guarantees nothing will change except for more uber rich people getting even more rich. The poor will continue to be poor and the middle class will shrink down to those who provide a service to the uber rich kings of America.

Do you wish to move up on the wage and salary ladder? Do you feel you are overworked and underpaid? Do you hate the corporate monopolies that you are required to buy from because they have killed off all the local competition and snub you when you dare to complain? Do you wish you didn't have to buy processed, radiated, gassed, ammonia added, GMO laced, Round up and pesticide saturated foods from China and Mal-Wart but there are no local alternatives? Do you wish the US economic situation would change? If yes, than the TPP is NOT for you. It will seal us into "free" trade, Ayn Rand, trickle down economics for a very long time. It will give those corporate royalists more power and control over your life and you wont be able to do anything about it.

See the uber rich love them the free trade. It's so uber capitalist. The working person gets nothing from "free" trade except to be prey for the uber rich. The uber rich don't want an economic system that is more democratic because they are doing just fine thank you very much.

[pampango]

45. A Pew poll in January ranked trade near the bottom of voters' priorities. Maybe that will change

with the increased attention drawn to it by congressional action on fast track.



http://www.people-press.org/2015/01/15/publics-policy-priorities-reflect-changing-conditions-at-home-and-abroad/

[Hoyt]

51. It would be lower at DU too if people could put it in perspective and quit listening to all the

misinformation being spread.

[arcane1]

53. I'll take Sanders over McConnell any day of the week.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141074111#post6

[Hoyt]

55. Sanders has been playing politics and spreading a lot of garbage. It's sad to watch him.

[arcane1]

56. And Mitch McConnell has been a truth-telling champion of American workers.

[Hoyt]

58. McConnell is a piece of you know what, I see no reason for Sanders to try to one up him.

[arcane1]

62. Why do you agree with McConnell on the TPP? What does HE like about it?

[Hoyt]

63. I agreed with bush on two things, his support of the Part D drug legislation and refusal to deport

immigrants as his bigoted constituents wanted. There were a few aspects of the drug legislation that should have been changed, like negotiating prices. But I was tired of seeing so many seniors cutting pills in thirds or going without.

I suspect you occassionally support the same thing as cons, perhaps for different reasons.

[arcane1]

64. Deflect and distract. Answer received.

[arcane1]

52. It's sad that terrorism still ranks that high.

"Home of the Brave" indeed!

[pampango]

57. Fear sells. And we have essentially 24/7 coverage of ISIS and any terrorism anywhere in the world.

It must seem to some that pandemonium is breaking out everywhere and will be in their neighborhood soon. It is sad.

[tiredtoo]

59. Here is a quote

"The Obama Admin says I'm wrong — we shouldn't worry about TPP. So why can’t the American people read the deal?" Elizabeth Warren tweeted.