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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsReport: Cops stun Tampa woman pregnant with sixteenth child
A pregnant Tampa woman with 15 children says cops endangered the life of her unborn child when they recently used a stun gun on her during a scuffle, according to the Tampa Tribune.
Angel Adams, 39, who is eight-months pregnant with her sixteenth child, was stunned during a controntation in her home that happened when police officers tried to talk to one her sons about allegedly throwing rocks at another home in their neighborood.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-05-08/news/os-cops-stun-pregnant-woman-tampa-20120508_1_stun-gun-tampa-woman-cops
monmouth
(21,078 posts)They tazed her during a confrontation while wanting to talk to her son. Is it important to know anything else?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)and how did I know there would be a picture accompanying the story ... Just in case the "welfare queen" narrative wasn't firmly enough planted.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)The only fact that those policemen should have considered, was that she was eight months pregnant.
monmouth
(21,078 posts)and well cared for. That'll ruin it for them.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)And if you had watched the video at the link you would know this..
You would also know that while one cop was restrainer her son who punched him in the face her and her daughter were attacking them. (according to the police)
I guess the truth will come out in court---
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)that this will turn out well for Angel Adams.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)I've seen the video clips of her. She seems like an extremely immature and irresponsible person, and that's being kind.
I think there is resentment for the fact that she keeps having so many kids. I don't feel particularly sympathetic toward someone who has 16 children without any thought toward how she is going to raise all of them.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)In every other post on this topic, I said that it was unnecessary to tase a visibly pregnant woman.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)trumad
(41,692 posts)As pointed out above--- the writer in his first written line sets the narrative that the woman is crazy.
Second---it looks for the quote of the supervisor that the officer entered the house without a warrant.
3rd of course is the tasering of a pregnant woman.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Trying to spin this in favor of the police because they know of the backlash that's coming?
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)Had four cops bash my door and blow up bell, at midnite. Four guns in my face. They claimed I was throwing a woman into walls. One cop said he heard her cry for fifteen minutes.
Only problem was, I am a heart patient, living alone, and had nodded off at 8. They claimed that they KNEW I was guilty, cuz I said I didnt want them in my home. Were I black, as well as then poor, I too would have been tazed or worse. They likely grabbed hold of the son, prompting mothers protection. Then, mom was getting hurt, so daughter jumped in.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)he ran away and hid in the house.
That's a bit different than picking this house at random and making up a story to justify kicking in the door.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)Next, the kid said he didnt do it. So, unless they have proof, it is the right of the mother, no matter how ill conceived, to ignore the cops.
They never pick a house at random, even in my case. They were retaliating for my busting a corruption racket, including cops and judges. Dont you think they remember her? They keep notes on persons. Pretty sure the neighbors hate her and her kids. Want her gone. She is in a house that is far too large for most welfare mothers, so is in an INNAPROPRIATE area.
I also had a neighbor that hated me, and likely called with the bogus accusations. My next door neighbor told me that a neighbor talked to her about setting me up for eviction or worse, as I have heart failure, and coughed more than he liked. So too could her neighbors call with the setup for her being bounced. In fact, throwing rocks, could get her bounced from gov help. Possible? Sure.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)that is not the case in every situation?
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)who will be quite familiar with various law enforcement agencies.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Oh, wait a minute. This is Florida run by Republicans.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)hell I think BC ought to be free (almost certainly this will save us money in the longrun).
But that is a societal problem. That doesn't address this specific case.
If you're poor because the schools suck that is something to be addressed. It doesn't excuse you when you rob a liquor store though.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)It's never okay to tase an eight month pregnant woman.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)if it's the only way to settle a violent situation.
You seem to think being pregnant is a license to do anything consequence free.
She made her decisions, she can live with them.
/if you don't want the cops to taze you a good start is to not attack them.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)This may be a civil rights issue since the rock throwing was "alleged."
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)first it was that the tazering was wrong, now it's the barging in.
Besides which they didn't kick down the door on a rumor. They asked the kid, outside, about it and he ran and hid inside. That's a bit different.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I think I made the point that tasing a woman at eight months pregnant was wrong. Now I'm wondering why the cops felt they had a right to go into a house without a warrant on an alleged rock throwing case, when that kind of thing would never have been acceptable in my community.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)there are more details there than in just the title.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I gave you details that I felt were poignant. Why don't you include the details that will support your position?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I get tired of repeating myself.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I'll look at them to see if I missed something.
I do enjoy our little debate.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)15, 18, 19, and 57
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Number 15 is my post.
Number 18, I already mentioned in my facts repeated in post 115.
Number 19 is my post.
Number 57 is also my post.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so then: 16, 20, 68
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Post Number 16
Yeah, how difficult could it be
for a single female police officer to wrestle with two women at the same time and safely restraining one while not harming the other?
The female officer "was at the door, went in to talk to the kid, and at that point, he physically punched the officer, so at that point now we have a struggle," Tampa police spokeswoman Andrea Davis said. "While was struggling with that kid, the pregnant suspect and her daughter were fighting with officer."
Oh and that means there were 13 more kids hanging around somewhere. Never know if they're going to join in.
- - - -
The female officer walked into a house where she knew there were fifteen kids hanging around. She walked in without a warrant. And you are surprised by what happened? The correct procedure was to fall back and call fro backup.
-- - - - -
#20 Wait for what?
The SWAT team? Likely they'd be disciplined if they called in backup for every vandalism case they were sent to question a suspect about.
Remember that's what this all was about: a rock thrown through a window. Not an inherently violent crime (I don't think anyone was inside or it would have been treated differently). They had no reason to expect it would explode like that.
- - -
Yes, it was just a rock thrown through a window. So what was the rush? Why chase down a boy on an alleged complaint? And, here you're making excuses for the police: "Not an inherently violent crime. They had no reason to expect it would explode like that." And yet throughout this thread there are people who bring up past history on this woman that suggests otherwise. Given the history, (check out the Tampa Tribune) the cops were fools not to think it wouldn't explode this way.
- - - - -
#68 There was no need to retreat
the cops didn't come in guns ablazing. When a cop comes to your door and asks to speak with your son in relation to a crime you aren't defending him or yourself by attacking the cop.
And apparently this lady has been arrested for getting in to an altercation with her case-worker before. So I'm guessing that would have gone about the same way, but with more time and money wasted.
- - - -
Here you provide an example of what I just said. "this lady has been arrested for getting in to an altercation with her case-worker before. So I'm guessing that would have gone about the same way..."
Again, given the history this woman has had, her response would have been predictable with the cops. Anyone could have seen that she didn't expect the best from the police. She would have feared for her son.
Where I live, the cops would never barge into a house on an alleged rock throwing situation. They would have told the person that called it in that they couldn't pursue it without proof. Why are there two different sets of justice happening in the same state?
The right procedure was to find out who was providing all the assistance to this woman. That is who should have stepped in to help.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)The female officer walked into a house where she knew there were fifteen kids hanging around. She walked in without a warrant. And you are surprised by what happened? The correct procedure was to fall back and call fro backup.
You know that she was aware of the number of kids in the house prior to entering?
Also it is not reasonable to assume children will set upon you, requiring a swat team to take them down.
I assume they know correct procedure better than you or I.
Yes, it was just a rock thrown through a window. So what was the rush? Why chase down a boy on an alleged complaint? And, here you're making excuses for the police: "Not an inherently violent crime. They had no reason to expect it would explode like that." And yet throughout this thread there are people who bring up past history on this woman that suggests otherwise. Given the history, (check out the Tampa Tribune) the cops were fools not to think it wouldn't explode this way.
So based on her history they should have treated her like a violent felon?
I suspect you'd have issues if they did.
Here you provide an example of what I just said. "this lady has been arrested for getting in to an altercation with her case-worker before. So I'm guessing that would have gone about the same way..."
Again, given the history this woman has had, her response would have been predictable with the cops. Anyone could have seen that she didn't expect the best from the police. She would have feared for her son.
Where I live, the cops would never barge into a house on an alleged rock throwing situation. They would have told the person that called it in that they couldn't pursue it without proof. Why are there two different sets of justice happening in the same state?
The right procedure was to find out who was providing all the assistance to this woman. That is who should have stepped in to help.
Again you're assuming these two cops were completely aware of her issues, that those issues excuse her behavior, and that a normal person would naturally assume this would explode in to violence.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)that the cops in the neighborhood knew her situation--and the number of kids. I also think it was wrong for the cops to barge into the house without a warrant, or that they were fools not to suspect what would happen when they did. They are, afterall, cops and are taught to prepare for the worst. Which makes the tasing of an eight month pregnant woman all the more unacceptable.
And if the choices were between a swat team and the person known to them that has been helping them out, I would have picked the latter.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)fine. That doesn't make it true though.
Tampa is a big place, over 300,000 people. I don't think it's fair to expect the police to be able to recognize all citizens by a glance. Even the more . . . temperamental ones. Let alone be able to draw out their family trees.
And you think a normal person assumes that questioning a kid about vandalism will necessarily lead to assault? You need new friends, because that is not normal.
Which makes the tasing of an eight month pregnant woman all the more unacceptable.
The tazing that occurred after two woman jumped a lone female officer.
And if the choices were between a swat team and the person known to them that has been helping them out, I would have picked the latter.
The person known to them was verbally abused last time. You think bringing that person back would have calmed the situation?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)They don't patrol the entire City of Tampa.
And, yes, I am reasonably sure the police knew about this family. One might make the argument that it's because they knew them that they felt so justified in barging into the house. So that's not helpful to your side of viewing things.
I live in a State where a kid went for skittles and never came home and the cops did a piss poor job of investigating the matter. I live in a State where a twentish year old girl was tasered in the back when she was handcuffed and she hit her head on the pavement and is in a permanent coma. I think something is very wrong with someone who expects cops to be honest and never tell lies.
I mean, what kind of two-tiered country are we creating where we subject the poorest to the highest level of police scrutiny, and expectations for obedience, when the other tier tunes into inside information such as this one:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865 which explains why you shouldn't talk to the police?
Someone is supplying them with food and rent. That's the obvious answer.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)for instance: the mother knew her kid would be murdered if she didn't intervene. The cops knew this woman. They knew her kids. They knew the house.
Someone is supplying them with food and rent. That's the obvious answer.
So have the state of Florida pay her a visit?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)But I do believe she had a reason to fear for her son. In my humble way of looking at things, fearing that your son is about to be put in jail for some crime he didn't commit is a valid fear.
Now you're being silly. There is a local person they could have talked to. Someone is supplying them with help.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)you claimed it was a "sophies choice" situation where she was forced to choose between the life of her son or that of her fetus. You said that. Don't back off now, it was so funny. You also claimed I was ok with forcing her to make the logical choice and sacrifice the son to save the fetus? Remember? Then you tried to claim it was a mother-only thing wherein no man could possibly understand the need to protect a child. Any of this ringing a bell?
And remember how she was arrested for verbally abusing that local person that was charged with providing her care?
Yeah, that would have cooled off the situation.
/also if you're afraid your son will go to jail how exactly is assaulting a police officer going to make things all better for him? They don't just forget about the crime because of your magical mama-grizzly powers.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)You took the Sophie's Choice reference too literally. You're the one that made it sound like she had to chose the fetus in order to be a good mother, which meant that she was a poor mom for trying to defend the son. I'm the one that told you that such a decision is not possible for a mother to make and I explained why.
Instead of trying to put words in my mouth, look for a direct quote that says otherwise. I never said she had to choose "the life of her son over the life of her fetus."
That scenario was sealed the moment that police officer stepped in the house.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)you called it sophies choice.
These are things you said.
And you have yet to explain any real reason she would "fear for her son".
And even if we're to believe your now amended version that she was fearing for him going to jail, how is assault going to fix that? Are people being taught that if you attack a police officer your friends/family get off scot-free?
And I never said she had to choose between the two. The point is that there was NO REASON TO HAVE TO CHOOSE. Neither were in danger. Until she created a situation. It's not like there were nazis kicking in the door saying you must choose which one lives and which one dies (hey that'd make a good book and possibly movie, and opera). We're talking misdemeanor charges, at worst.
You really aren't getting that this isn't a mother/not mother thing. It's a crazy/sane thing. A crazy person sees cops and assumes "I must fight them or my son will die". Not a mother. Or rather, not because she's a mother.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Own it. Because I can find the quote that states that. I disagreed with you and I explained why.
And in the days following the Trayvon debacle, where piss poor police work is a major concern for many of us, I would say she has lots of reasons to be concerned.
In fact, if you want to push the envelope, people are downright frightened of police brutality. Especially when cases like this one comes up: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=660595
As for choosing between the two, this is exactly what you said:
- - - -
You were careful with your fetus right?
It's precious to you and delicate.
Are these fair statements?
Ok so how eager were you to initiate a violent confrontation with 2 police officers while pregnant?
- - - -
The confrontation was in an effort to defend her son. As a mother, it was an impulsive thing she did which you cannot understand. You cannot understand it even a thimble full which is why you are arguing with me over a human behavior that anyone could have foreseen that understands motherhood. I can't help you with that. I told you, we are at a stalemate at a very critical point which is why neither one of us is going to concede.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)In my instance, the pigs asked WHO I had in my crawlspace? I said NOONE. they asked again, in an insinuatory fashion. I said Jimmy Hoffa. He said, OK smart ass, now I get to tear thru everything.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Because anytime I've tried to make a report to an authority, nothing ever came of it. They wanted proof. To my knowledge, no cop ever went knocking on doors to start an investigation. They might have had a friend of a friend get involved to nicely find out what was going on, but no real police action. Especially not like what's described in the paper.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)offered candy to some little boys. Nothing nefarious, just a joke. The same pigs that busted in my place, interrogated her and friend, and threatened to put them on sexual predator lists. Imagine.
They got a real charge outta that. had some real fun.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)He did this for kicks. I almost floored his ass. As told by the boxboy. He was 6/5 and built.
They do things like grab your kid, so that any normal parent would react.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Neighbors also tend to go over the edge, then try to create "casual run ins" in public places to see if you're angry enough to confront them.
They scare the hell out of me.
think
(11,641 posts)the use of lethal force on a pregnant woman over a minor incident.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)think
(11,641 posts)I'm not a fan of playing the odds. Sorry I don't like tasers and their excessive use.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)right?
think
(11,641 posts)How about some restraint and respect? The potential criminal is a 12 year old child who may have thrown rocks at a house.
Or do we now need to use brute force to resolve every little issue in life?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)That's what the police would use in such a situation if you remove tazers.
"How about some restraint and respect?"
Towards two people who are attacking you?
"Or do we now need to use brute force to resolve every little issue in life?"
It was limited force in response to aggression. How do people not understand that?
think
(11,641 posts)but apparently you are fine with it.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)and the tazering was in response to the pregnant woman and her adult daughter starting a fight with a lone female police officer.
You're trying really hard to spin this and I appreciate that you are in a bind here (what with the facts being so different from the narrative you feel compelled to create). But maybe consider that this woman wasn't a saint and the cop wasn't a demon.
think
(11,641 posts)is this wrong?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)but given the preceding events they had a right to enter the house according to the law. She did not have the right to prevent the police from coming in in this situation.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)for entering the house.
Let's instead look at the other factor involved: tazering a pregnant woman.
If this were a lone female cop on patrol and she was attacked in an alley by a pregnant woman and another woman would she be justified in using a tazer to defend herself?
If yes then the problem is solely about the right of the police to enter and the tazering of a pregnant woman *is* acceptable in some cases, just not this one (in your opinion).
If no then what should she do?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)been familiar with this family. More to the point, they probably knew someone they could call to come down to talk to her to get the son to come out to speak to them.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)WingDinger
(3,690 posts)there was a story in the news just today, where a tow co. was confiscating soldier vehicles, and then selling them. Same kind of corruption, but instigated by cops, and corroborated by judges. Attorney General had their asses.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Don't do that.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)eight months pregnant?
Why didn't the police wait in the car for backup and a warrant?
What was so urgent?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)for a single female police officer to wrestle with two women at the same time and safely restraining one while not harming the other?
The female officer "was at the door, went in to talk to the kid, and at that point, he physically punched the officer, so at that point now we have a struggle," Tampa police spokeswoman Andrea Davis said. "While [the male officer] was struggling with that kid, the pregnant suspect and her daughter were fighting with [the female] officer."
Oh and that means there were 13 more kids hanging around somewhere. Never know if they're going to join in.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)If they knew there were 13 kids hanging around somewhere, weren't they endangering the lives of those 13 kids too by stepping into a situation they didn't know how it would turn out?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)The SWAT team? Likely they'd be disciplined if they called in backup for every vandalism case they were sent to question a suspect about.
Remember that's what this all was about: a rock thrown through a window. Not an inherently violent crime (I don't think anyone was inside or it would have been treated differently). They had no reason to expect it would explode like that.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Her story was not unknown in the Tampa area. The police would have known who this woman worked with in the area that could have reached her. Instead, a simple alleged rock throwing turns into this big fiasco.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Who are they supposed to call?
Do you bring in Dr. Phil for every vandalism case? I think that would get expensive. Not to mention time consuming.
She chose to swing at a cop. That's really the end of it.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)They could have called anyone in the neighborhood, they could have contacted her DCA contact. Anyone.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)the cops didn't come in guns ablazing. When a cop comes to your door and asks to speak with your son in relation to a crime you aren't defending him or yourself by attacking the cop.
And apparently this lady has been arrested for getting in to an altercation with her case-worker before. So I'm guessing that would have gone about the same way, but with more time and money wasted.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Just out of curiosity, if a cop comes to your door without a warrant asking to speak to your son or daughter, are you obligated to allow him in?
I think not. So, your double standard thinking is duly noted.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)you really should read the article.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Do you bring in Dr. Phil for every vandalism case? I think that would get expensive. Not to mention time consuming...."
And that either-or thinking is all that is left for may people...
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)I'm not really sure what you are expecting they do in this case. Get hit by two deranged women and . . . give her a lollypop, tell her everything will be ok?
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)to swear in.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)You know the female cop was under attack by two women right?
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)The slightest touch, is ample justification to stove in your skull.
I had a cop pull me over, I said, as I gestured towards him. He said, I could drop you right now. and he meant it.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so the cops completely made up the assault but when the woman said they slammed her against the door, that was undeniably true.
She probably didn't even had a son. They made that up too.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)Before you start throwing around that assault charge like it is physical contact:
"In law, assault is a crime which involves causing a victim to apprehend violence." thus saith Wiki.
So, just making cops FEAR about something happening, is justification to start throwing weight around.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)The female officer "was at the door, went in to talk to the kid, and at that point, he physically punched the officer, so at that point now we have a struggle," Tampa police spokeswoman Andrea Davis said. "While [the male officer] was struggling with that kid, the pregnant suspect and her daughter were fighting with [the female] officer."
This is a lady who has been in regular contact with the law. And yet people are more than willing to make her a saint if it means they can make the cops devils.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)There have GOT to be better ways of dealing with anything cops dont like but tazing. Tazing will KILL me. Protest=death. Tazing harms MANY categories of humans. Mostly the most vulnerable. And it has become like washing a kids mouth out with soap. FAR too cavalier about safety, and like the beating they wish they could give. So, it is a COMPLIANCE TOOL. TORTURE, and terrorist threat.
"On Tuesday, police wanted to speak to one of her sons about throwing rocks at another home in the neighborhood. He said he didn't do it and ran from the police."
Why yes, that usually earns you a bullet in the back.
"Angel Adams says two officers a man and a woman forced their way into her home."
Once cops enter your home without warrant, and are throwing weight around, any slight movement of resistance, is charged as battery. Believe it.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)two deranged women actually the proper response is . . . ?
She (the policewoman) could have shot them. Or taken the abuse. Or beat them with a stick. Or . . .
Which of these options is appropriate when attacked by a crazy person and fearing for your life?
Perhaps we could train our police to be ninjas. Or force feed them steroids (that may have problems with it though).
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)And by that, mental and social help. Have those ready, that can negotiate with the distressed, and mentally marginal, to reduce violence. They have her record. They could almost GUARANDAMNTEE, that there would be some kind of trouble. AND IF there are mega amounts of kids there, and the mother IS arrested, they have many young souls to watch over. So, they could anticipate needing social workers, to calm the scene, and officiate. IF NEEDED.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)2 cops, 1 psychologist, 1 case worker, a trained police negotiator, and of course some social workers to deal with the kids if that doesn't work.
Getting crowded in that cop car. Would need an SUV. Of course that isn't setting a good example, environment-wise.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)resistance can be almost assured. So, at THAT point, you gather resources. YOU BACK OFF, and wait for them to arrive. Where are they going? All those children, and stuff?
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)WingDinger
(3,690 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)This piece of trash has cost the taxpayers millions of dollars with 15 illegitimate kids and is pregnant with a 16th? And some of you Liberal idiots think we shouldn't reform the entitlement system? She probably has a $100,000 a year welfare income and spends it all on drugs, liquor and cigarettes from the look of her. I mean look how hot she is, NOT! What we need to do is spay this baby producing beatch and send her on her way. By the way I'd say the same if she were white.
What 39 years old 16 kids What???? Where is the Daddy or Daddies???? On welfare WHAT???????
She needs an appointment withg a Veteranarian to be spayed... Come on now WE the TAX PAYERS are paying this person to be a baby MACHINE.........
sTOP THE MADNESS!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP THE CHECKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET A JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I'm surprised they left the woman's race out of the headline.
trumad
(41,692 posts)The first comment---LOL---tries to soften the comment by saying---oh---I'd say the same if she was white.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)EC
(12,287 posts)sound like the prolife people too, so isn't she just what they want to make ALL women by taking away the pill and abortion rights?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)It reminds me of why I remain sequestered around here.
juice feast
(12 posts)This woman is NOT taking birth control and it's LEGAL! She is also not having abortions and they too are legal.
The people who end up doing things like this are not conscientious enough to take birth control because they simply ACT without thinking...
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)This is Florida. Are our social services even allowed to suggest it?
juice feast
(12 posts)People who have ridiculous numbers of kids and no partner or money are not right in the head. They are impulsive and cannot think beyond the moment.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)For all you know they were practicing the old pull out method.
juice feast
(12 posts)is out of her mind. She either does not have the cognitive ability to understand how she is complicating her life or is crazy and not thinking clearly or both. There are lots of people walking around out here who are in this position. Trying to reason with them is futile. Some need to be on meds or even under watch, but at the very least they need to be stopped. These kids are suffering from her madness.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)This is how we solve problems in Florida. yes?
this is exactly what the GOP evangelical wing are calling for women to be like...baby machines, with no choice.
I realize SHE does have the choice now...I'm not disputing that and I also am aghast that she doesn't use birth control...but all I'm pointing out is that SHE IS EXACTLY THE MODEL OF WHAT THE GOP WANTS... if you look at the laws they are trying to pass.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)tabbycat31
(6,336 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Despite its RW bent, Florida has a number of quality newspapers (Miami Herald, Palm Beach Post, Tampa Bay (formerly St. Pete) Times). But the Sentinel isn't one of them.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)exercise more restraint with pregnant women. Perhaps it's old-fashioned to expect it.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)How many children she already has is not.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I don't question that this is a terrible case. There are a lot of things that crossed my mind about the kind of help and support this woman needed. It appears she got on the radar when her first common law husband was arrested. She has no means of support, and if she did, who would baby sit the children?
But let me ask you, to whom does it serve making her situation worse? If there is anyone who needs to be sat down for proper counseling, it is this woman. Tasing her is only going to make her situation worse and less agreeable to this kind of social service option.
So let's get back to the main issue. When is it ever proper to tase an eight month pregnant woman?
I believe the answer to that is never. Especially when officers could have waited to contact someone who could handle this situation in a more civil manner.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)In this case she was assaulting an officer.
As to her mental state, she's already demonstrated an inability to cooperated constructively with authority figures.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)She put her child in risk by initiating a physical fight with a police officer. Either by tazing or physical damage (fighting isn't great for fetuses) or even by a bullet if things got really out of hand. She created a situation that put her kids in danger.
All she had to do was cooperate. Or scream at them if it makes her feel better. But assaulting a cop is not a wise decision for someone who values their physical safety.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)It's a natural instinct.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)In a proper household the cops would have been the more charitable ones if a kid was out breaking windows.
She didn't protect them from anything. In fact she got her one kid arrested. Who is safer now?
And no, no one would have applauded another woman for "protecting" her kids from being questioned by the police by assaulting them and getting tazed. That's a strawman argument.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I think there is a perspective here that you're failing to see. The police were not charitable by forcing there way in to talk to a boy who only allegedly threw rocks. That's my position.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)If she'd gone in and grabbed the kid none of this would have happened. (and that's what would have happened to me if I were out doing this as a teenager, that is until I was really being punished).
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I can tell you for a fact that police around this area will not get involved in cases like this one unless:
(1) You have video or a photo confirming who did the trespass or property damage;
(2) The person filing the complaint has political clout.
The cops would never, never barge into a suburban house chasing a teenage boy without a warrant on an alleged matter.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)because the police would never have broken in.
Are you kidding? You know why they wouldn't have broken in? Because the police chief answers to the "key people" who pull the political strings in the city. If they go barging into a house without fully knowing who that person knows politically, those cops could be out of a job with just one phone call.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)the commissioner was in on it from the get-go. A conspiracy to get this fine upstdanding woman, who has clearly made nothing but good decisions and raised wonderful kids, in to trouble with the law.
And really if you think about it her only crime is being a proud single mother, raising her kids against adversity, protecting them from harm and . . . . assaulting a police officer.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)The police created this situation when they barged into her house without a warrant.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)please read to article so you can understand what happened before that.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)The boy was frightened by the police and ran home.
The cops came to the door and walked in without permission or warrant.
The pregnant mother and her daughter defended their homestead and family member.
What am I missing?
So now an alleged rock throwing has turned into an assault in a person's own homestead. And, the woman was tased when she was eight months pregnant.
What facts am I missing?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)look it up some time.
It doesn't state: your house is home-base. Once there no one can touch you there under any circumstances.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)without accelerating the legal consequences to this family.
That's my point.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Details please.
And saying the way it happened was wrong and men are not capable of understanding are not the details I was looking for.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)They needed to find someone that could speak to the family. The boy was not a flight risk. There was no need to rush into this thing. This is how it would have been handled in this community. Or at least, around my neighborhood.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Bearing in mind this lady has previously been brought up on charges for verbally abusing people sent by the state to talk to her (not cops).
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Someone is helping them. That's the person they should have asked to help out.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Not far from this location, across the bay in Pinellas, a young 20ish girl fell into a permanent coma when she fell backwards and hit her head.
What the cops risked was that Angel Adams could have fallen on her pregnant belly.
This was not originally about Angel Adams. It was about her son who had allegedly thrown rocks. Someone in social services could have spoken to this family with better results for the police.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)for verbally abusing social workers. So it seems dubious that "someone in social services could have spoken to this family and gotten better results".
However, I do agree that tasing a pregnant woman is unnecessary.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Tasing an eight month pregnant woman was not necessary.
The way we're headed as a country, five years from now that might result in charges to the police for endangering an innocent life.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)evolution has seen to it that the fetus is pretty well protected.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)You can't be serious? When I was pregnant I was told I shouldn't even push the vacuum cleaner.
Your retort is so wrong on so many merits.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)It's precious to you and delicate.
Are these fair statements?
Ok so how eager were you to initiate a violent confrontation with 2 police officers while pregnant?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)You're expecting her to make a Sophie's Choice. Only a man cannot plainly see that.
The police should not have confronted a pregnant woman the way they did. Hormones are everywhere at this stage. At eight months pregnant with my first child I discovered I had a short fuse with customer service issues. At six months with my second child I couldn't even get through two back to back cases of the flu without emotionally feeling overwhelmed.
She behaved in the way that most women would understand.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so literally she had to choose which of her kids would die?
Either fight with the cops and the son lives or don't and he dies.
Wow. You must think the cops are like in Judge Dred: they came there to execute her son for the crime of vandalism and that was it. And only by heroically smacking the female cop with her other daughter was she able to save her sons life.
he police should not have confronted a pregnant woman the way they did. Hormones are everywhere at this stage. At eight months pregnant with my first child I discovered I had a short fuse with customer service issues.
Ah so she was hormonal. Somehow I suspect if a male had made the argument that due to hormones she couldn't be expected to act like an adult you would take umbrage to that. Being cranky with customer service agents =/= hitting a cop.
/and by 16 I would think she should be well aware of the effects of pregnancy.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Don't know why that's so hard to understand, except, maybe because you're male.
And, I believe that people in different social classes see a different side of the police. Yes.
You are extremely condescending to woman, I see. I would have never put it in those terms.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)no one was in physical danger until she created a violent situation.
Ignoring your blatant sexism for the moment: the cop involved was a female.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Poor judgment on the police's side to go in given the woman's history. If they really did believe she was capable of fighting back, then they created that self-fulfilling prophecy, didn't they?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Ah so cops should treat people differently based on what they personally know about them?
Of course you're assuming these cops were intimately familiar with this womans life.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Go to the Tampa Tribune newspaper and type in Angel Adams.
Yes, the cops would have intimately been familiar with this woman's life.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)she was famous. Sure. That means every cop in Florida knows her face?
And even assuming they do: how do you justify your requirement that cops treat people differently based on what they know about that person? If the police were to say they will start applying personal justice rather than uniform justice you'd be outraged.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)that hormones make her not responsible for her actions.
So who is being condescending to women? The one who treats them as equals or the one who assumes they are fragile emotional critters as responsible for their actions as a child?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so your argument that only a man would make this decision is off by at least n = 1.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Don't tell a woman what other women are capable of given the right training or indoctrination. Please.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)first I'm wrong because I'm a man and a woman wouldn't make this decision.
Then she isn't really a woman because she's a cop.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)from a male perspective. But I could be wrong, so tell me, are you male or female?
Then, there's the police fraternity that everyone knows about. A person can't go through that kind of training and indoctrination without being affected by it. For all I know they sent a woman cop because they thought it would be less confrontational. And once it went over the line, easier to defend.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)Really I'm surprised this kind of sexism is tolerated here.
I'm "putting her down" for her actions. Not her gender.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)You are the one that insists she should have thought of one child over the other. You can't understand the maternal instinct.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)really not complicated.
And she wasn't choosing one child over another. That is a bizarre strawman you came up with (Sophies choice. Do you know what that story was about?).
It's not maternal instinct. It's just simple stupidity.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)if this were a male single parent who did the exact same thing and you were told that you didn't know what you're talking about because you're a woman so kindly refrain from commenting.
Sexism?
Yep.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)You were the one who claimed she should pick one child over the other. I was trying to tell you why that's not possible for a woman to do.
In addition, I'll even throw into the pot that men have the same instinct to protect their young. This comes from an unexpected source: I watch these shows, the ones where people are building underground shelters, preparing for the final showdown. And in every case you have a white male who is armed to the teeth who claims he's doing it because he'll do anything to defend his children. Because you know, defending your young, that's a primal instinct.
Men have the same instincts to protect their young. I'm just saying that picking one over the other to attempt to belittle Angel Adams' choice, is not acceptable.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)FULL STOP!
This is a lie. I said no such thing. That was an insane analogy you made comparing this lady to a woman who had to choose which of her kids would die in a nazi death camp.
Please apologize and address this lie.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)No. 73 You said the following:
You were careful with your fetus right?
It's precious to you and delicate.
Are these fair statements?
Ok so how eager were you to initiate a violent confrontation with 2 police officers while pregnant?
- - - - -
I don't have to explain your implication. It's apparent.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so I said you wouldn't endanger your fetus.
Now, show where I said that means the other kid had to die.
What threat was he in? Worst case scenario he goes to juvie for a bit. Where in gods name are you getting this notion that he was in mortal danger?
Please address that and stop lying.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)And it's not true.
You asked "what threat was he in?" I think when two cops come into your house without a warrant, there might be some fear that your child is under immediate threat. This is where it would have been helpful to give the family a chance to discuss the situation among themselves. This woman, who was eight months pregnant, had very little time to assess the situation.
I think that there are many minority communities who are fearful of the police. It would be dishonest not to mention that. The cops don't always do the right thing, and even when they get caught doing the wrong thing, they aren't reprimanded for it.
So that's a valid threat and concern.
Now, stop calling me a liar. Just because we don't agree on this matter gives you no right to disparage me.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)So stop lying.
I said she should not have endangered her fetus.
You made up the absurd comparison to Sophies Choice. You then used your own analogy to argue that I was in favor of forcing her to choose which kid died even though no one was at risk prior to starting this altercation and even then no one was going to die.
" Just because we don't agree on this matter gives you no right to disparage me. "
Again, that is a false statement. You have been disagreeing with me for some time. I only called you a liar when you began misrepresenting what I had said.
So to make what you claimed accurate you must A) prove that multiple children were at risk of death and B) show that I said she must choose which of them would die.
Instead what I said is that she put her fetus at risk. That doesn't imply that she did so to save another child.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)until you started throwing accusations.
Your point was that the protection of the fetus was all important because YOU, YOU, didn't see an immediate threat to her son.
I vehemently disagreed with that assessment. In light of what has gone on in Florida of late, nobody knows what to expect from law enforcement. Since we disagree on this main, critical point, our arguments will be unacceptable to either party. You will go on your merry way thinking that this was no Sophie's Choice scenario, the police are never Judge Dreddish, and I will see it from the other side of America.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)over a made up threat to her son. That is not a "Sophies choice". That is being crazy.
You are the ones who compared the police to Nazi prison guards and Florida to a concentration camp.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Most mothers would not be able to make the kind of decision that seems to come easy to you. You have to be a mother to understand. For all the love she has for her unborn child, she has a history of diaper changes, and nose wipings, and huggings with her other children. A good mother won't make the kind of choice you're suggesting. She will step up to fight for the child she perceives is in danger. And, in Florida, she has the right to fear police action, because it's not consistent.
We're in an era where people are fighting back because they feel so helpless. Why do you think the Occupy movement is still picking up steam?
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)if the police talked to him.
That's not being an overprotective mother, that is insane.
And notice that all this happened *after* the son attacked the male police officer. She got in to a fight with the *female* police officer after the son and policemen had moved outside.
That's not snapping and defending your son. That's just plain crazy.
You're falling back on "you'd have to be a mother" because you know the real story is indefensible. So instead you're attacking my right to even comment on it.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)This is a point which neither one of us is going to give up.
If you can't see it as a woman/mother would see it, then this argument has reached its natural conclusion.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)so.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)There are critical points that neither one of us will yield. Once we reach this point, it becomes a stalemate. Which is no surprise since we're coming from two different sides of the American experience.
Response to Baitball Blogger (Reply #122)
Baitball Blogger This message was self-deleted by its author.
FarCenter
(19,429 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Especially with older women. She may have had fifteen children, but the woman is 39 years old. Come on.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)A 2008 report (PDF) from Amnesty International found 351 Taser-related deaths in the US between June, 2001 and August, 2008, a rate of just slightly above four deaths per month.
Truth Not Tasers, which maintains an extensive list of deaths linked to conducted energy weapons going back to the 1980s, says Colliers is the 507th person in the US to die in incidents linked to the weapons.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/09/05/taser-related-deaths-accelerating/
I don't understand how you can brush off the risk to a fetus from being shocked at energy levels so high they bring a grown person to the floor.
I've seen someone tazed in real life. It was horrible. Much worse than seeing it on video.
guardian
(2,282 posts)Population Bomb.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)before & after.
Response to Baitball Blogger (Original post)
Post removed
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)I'm pretty sure that tasing her at eight months pregnancy isn't one of them.
juice feast
(12 posts)they should just sit there and take it? Did you see her mug shot? She looked a hot mess.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)That family isn't going anywhere. Sadly. The cops should have waited.
And jumping to the mug shot to support your position, that's sad too.
We will agree to disagree. The cops had resources and time to handle this better.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I didn't see that part in the article..
juice feast
(12 posts)I'm sorry--do cops have to see crimes for them to exist? It is one of those Zen koan thingies?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)As in "the boy was allegedly throwing rocks"...
I've seen enough examples of cops just making shit up out of whole cloth to have a skeptical view of what they say.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)unless they have something more definitive.
There might be some "class discrimination" going on in the way the police take these things on.
LACarMan
(45 posts)I did see where the son admitted to running from the police. I am sure that police will pursue someone who runs from them and make an assumption based on that act.
What I don't understand, is how does a stay at home mom, with 12 children, afford a 6 bedroom house, food and healthcare. I, along with my spouse, work full time, have 1 child and still have to hustle to make ends meet.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I hope you enjoy your stay.
Been lurking for years. Enjoy your fume sucking!
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Living in Florida, the very things that could have helped this woman, like pregnancy counseling, are not exactly top on everybody's political list.
More to the point, from what I read in a 2010 article, it sounds like they tried to make the family a community charity case. Now we can see the limitations of that approach.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)have been set up. Cost, one broken window.
Neighbors can and DO set up neighbors. I have experienced it from health reasons, and seen many others. One, was an evil ex cop.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)of neighbors.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I'm so glad that fucker is dead.
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)Thanks for the info.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Yes to your subject line.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)They have 19 children!
Oh, right, they're also white.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Having 16 kids when you probably can barely take care of yourself is not insignificant.
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)BlueIris
(29,135 posts)And why the f do the headline and article mention the number of kids the victim had? Is that supposed to make what the police did okay?
Baitball Blogger
(46,775 posts)to cloud the issue.
WingDinger
(3,690 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)She hit a cop.
Personally if I had done something this stupid as a kid, my mom would have smacked me upside the head for being an idiot. And I do know that my mom would be able to stay calm when watching me injure as she maintained enough self-control to deescalate a dog attack on me as a kid. Instead of panicking she remained calm until she could safely get the dog away without putting herself in danger.
Unfortunately, this woman seems to have a history of making poor decisions. 16 kids, an arrest for assault against a social worker and now assaulting a cop.
The question of the use of tazers should be a separate issue. Clouding it with the emotional issue of tazering an individual doesn't tell us anything relevant. I don't know the numbers for here in the U.S., but the numbers in other countries indicate that cops use tazers in situations that they would not have used violence in previously.
flvegan
(64,422 posts)And no, I don't believe everything reported by the police.
bhikkhu
(10,725 posts)A police officer, allegedly trained in how to handle domestic situations and people in general, not to mention self defense, has no excuse.
Meiko
(1,076 posts)should not have tasered her but that is just the tip of this iceberg....Good Grief.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)the media before this incident.
She had a lot of kids and she was oppositional. So what? Why is that big news?
The only motive I can see is that she's black, had a lot of kids, and didn't show proper gratitude for social services. So what????? What was her crime? What is the public interest??
The intent in plastering it all over the news in multiple stories is racist, IMO.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)An agenda that the media is tasked to serve by those who own that media..
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)these things, you start to realize that we're drowning in it.
ti66er8pooh
(15 posts)A warrant is not needed in this instance. Nor is the permission of the homeowner or resident. It's called fresh pursuit. The officer was trying to affect an arrest - the suspect resisted by running into his home. The officer, in "fresh pursuit" entered the dwelling in order to affect the arrest.
The mother should not have battered the officer. The officer was within means of necessary force by using a taser to stop the threat.
Maybe if people were more aware of the laws they would be less likely to blatantly break them, then cry fowl when they are met with the ramifications. Ignorance of the law does not excuse lawlessness.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)There are about 100 different angles you can take to debate this unusual case, and you pick that one?
See ya!
ti66er8pooh
(15 posts)No, I'm not new. I just choose not to post on every subject or item on a daily basis.
And yes, I did choose the "personal responsibility" angle on this one. It's unfortunate that many others don't choose this.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)ti66er8pooh
(15 posts)I'm sorry that my opinion differs from yours, thus causing you to want my opinion to go away or draw flame bait.
I thought du was a place for discussion and learning.
I was merely posting factual information on what seemed to have become one of the main points of the discussion, prior to my chiming in. Many people were exclaiming that the woman's rights, mainly her 4'th Amendment right, had been unjustly violated by the peace officer for not having a warrant to enter the home. The fact is, given the information from the article, that no warrant was needed in this circumstance. That is not my opinion, That is fact.
Also, many were saying that the woman was unjustly tasered. While I may not agree with how the situation was handled, I was again presenting facts. The fact that when you batter a peace officer, there are ramifications. The woman CHOSE to do so in her current condition, which in turn caused a LAWFUL reaction. That is fact.
However, It is my opinion that many people do not know the laws in which they claim to. This, to me, is a problem. I think everyone should know the laws and what their rights are. IMO, Everyone should take the time to understand what their civil rights are the many loopholes that surround those civil rights. Again, Ignorance of the law does not excuse lawlessness.
4th law of robotics
(6,801 posts)people are really working hard to ignore the facts on this one.
It's morphed in to a story of the cops busting in this womans door for no reason then tazering her in front of the kids even though she was being cordial and cooperative.
I guess the need to make the cops in to the enemies in every single scenario forces people to argue strange things.
Iggo
(47,581 posts)They're the best!