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icymist

(15,888 posts)
Mon May 4, 2015, 08:27 PM May 2015

Here's a picture of the Kent State shootings from 45 years ago today. We should never forget this.


The students were protesting the invasion of Cambodia by the US. Republican Ohio Governor Rhodes called out the Ohio National Guard after some property destruction in the city of Kent. Four unarmed students dead.
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Here's a picture of the Kent State shootings from 45 years ago today. We should never forget this. (Original Post) icymist May 2015 OP
So many memories from that day, we were so shocked, killing students. "four dead in Ohio," n/t RKP5637 May 2015 #1
Were the killers ever identified? n/t 951-Riverside May 2015 #2
The Ohio National Guard did this. icymist May 2015 #3
Sorry, I was asking about the individuals within the national guard n/t 951-Riverside May 2015 #4
This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words May 2015 #6
From what I recall, no Guardsmen were ever Ilsa May 2015 #9
From the Wikipedia: icymist May 2015 #10
the police have been getting away with murder NJCher May 2015 #23
I have never seen this picture. shocking Liberal_in_LA May 2015 #24
Yes. They were Americans. Lochloosa May 2015 #5
The situation was a powder keg already, but got real FUBAR after FBI informant Terry Norman fired FailureToCommunicate May 2015 #16
Ohio... MrMickeysMom May 2015 #7
.. liberal N proud May 2015 #8
I remember that song well, I was a teen at that time. Tears~ sheshe2 May 2015 #11
My husband remembers it so well, too... MrMickeysMom May 2015 #14
That is what I was thinking. Some real similarities between then and now. When ever an unarmed jwirr May 2015 #19
Hey, jwirr, I am down to. sheshe2 May 2015 #20
My brother suffers from severe depression and his wife has fit because he watches the news. I jwirr May 2015 #21
Oh, jwirr, so sorry. sheshe2 May 2015 #22
Oh man - that image. That young woman's shocked grief as the other student lays there dying. calimary May 2015 #37
That man with a flag Caretha May 2015 #12
protecting our 'freedoms'! KG May 2015 #13
Imagine a national guardsthing, I wouldn't use guardsman, that was stoked to kill him a filthy brewens May 2015 #15
My Father and Mother told me once that that was the day they lost respect for America. BlueJazz May 2015 #17
I wasn't even a year old but I remember people talking about it rbrnmw May 2015 #18
There is a tape that captured the order to shoot marym625 May 2015 #25
i will always remember kent state as the day tptb questionseverything May 2015 #28
I think that started with the civil rights movement marym625 May 2015 #29
inexcusable that current admins justice department will not reopen the case questionseverything May 2015 #30
I am not positive that is all the guard did marym625 May 2015 #31
I headed an active duty Army riot control unit that was on alert for the '68 Dem Convention pinboy3niner May 2015 #32
wow! marym625 May 2015 #34
So Unbelievable. colsohlibgal May 2015 #26
Why exactly was there live ammo involved? nt Tommy_Carcetti May 2015 #27
Because they planned to keep the students in line marym625 May 2015 #35
This was the day I learned that: "Little Tommy doesn't live here anymore!" LongTomH May 2015 #33
I watched the news from an Army hospital bed in San Francisco pinboy3niner May 2015 #36

Response to 951-Riverside (Reply #4)

Ilsa

(61,695 posts)
9. From what I recall, no Guardsmen were ever
Mon May 4, 2015, 08:54 PM
May 2015

Prosecuted. The initial stories blamed the event on the protestors for destruction of property. For that, there was little motivation at first to determine what happened and what went wrong. Eventually, a report concluded that no one should have been shot at; that the Guard had other options. (Duh).

Keep in mind, J. Edgar Hoover was still alive and running the FBI.

icymist

(15,888 posts)
10. From the Wikipedia:
Mon May 4, 2015, 08:56 PM
May 2015
The Commission issued its findings in a September 1970 report that concluded that the Ohio National Guard shootings on May 4, 1970, were unjustified. The report said:
Even if the guardsmen faced danger, it was not a danger that called for lethal force. The 61 shots by 28 guardsmen certainly cannot be justified. Apparently, no order to fire was given, and there was inadequate fire control discipline on Blanket Hill. The Kent State tragedy must mark the last time that, as a matter of course, loaded rifles are issued to guardsmen confronting student demonstrators.
In September 1970, twenty-four students and one faculty member were indicted on charges connected with the May 4 demonstration at the ROTC building fire three days before. These individuals, who had been identified from photographs, became known as the "Kent 25." Five cases, all related to the burning of the ROTC building, went to trial; one non-student defendant was convicted on one charge and two other non-students pleaded guilty. One other defendant was acquitted, and charges were dismissed against the last. In December 1971, all charges against the remaining twenty were dismissed for lack of evidence.[46][47]
Legal action[edit]
Eight of the guardsmen were indicted by a grand jury. The guardsmen claimed to have fired in self-defense, a claim that was generally accepted by the criminal justice system. In 1974 U.S. District Judge Frank Battisti dismissed charges against all eight on the basis that the prosecution's case was too weak to warrant a trial.[8]
Larry Shafer, a guardsman who said he fired during the shootings and was one of those charged, told the Kent-Ravenna Record-Courier newspaper in May 2007: "I never heard any command to fire. That's all I can say on that." Shafer—a Ravenna city councilman and former fire chief—went on to say, "That's not to say there may not have been, but with all the racket and noise, I don't know how anyone could have heard anything that day." Shafer also went on to say that "point" would not have been part of a proper command to open fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

At the time of these shootings, I was a 12 year old kid listening to my grandfather declare about "those God Damned hippies" deserving it while watching my mother and aunt try and comfort my grandmother who was worrying about my uncle, a student at Kent State at the time. We were living about 14 miles north of Youngstown at the time. We even knew the mother of one of the girls that got shot that day. Those were different times with a completely different war as I saw it every day at school while classmates wore the MIA/POW bracelets. Every day I would grab the newspaper after getting off of the school bus and read about who got killed or is missing. Very different than the wars of today.

FailureToCommunicate

(14,014 posts)
16. The situation was a powder keg already, but got real FUBAR after FBI informant Terry Norman fired
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:15 PM
May 2015

his .38 and threw rocks at several students, setting off the ill-trained Guard troops to fire into the tear gas shrouded students.

You could make a case that the 'killers' were all of these players:

-President Nixon (invaded Cambodia, the reason for these latest student anti-war protests on the Kent State campus)
-Ohio Governor Rhodes (sent in troops fearing more campus unrest)
-Mayor Satrom (who asked Rhodes to send in troops)
-Terry Norman (agent provocateur)
-National Guard captain who gave order to load and fire.
-The Guard troops who fired volleys for nearly half a minute into crowds of college students...

sheshe2

(83,751 posts)
11. I remember that song well, I was a teen at that time. Tears~
Mon May 4, 2015, 09:03 PM
May 2015

Also remember sitting with my sister and our boyfriends watching the draft lottery. It was intense, both drew high numbers and were in college at that time.


Sadly, we are still cutting our children down 45 years later.

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
14. My husband remembers it so well, too...
Mon May 4, 2015, 09:57 PM
May 2015

I believe everyone who was a teen like you and I were (he was a little older) know something was very, very wrong… very, very wrong.

Yep…. Here we are… Like Stephen Stills shouts at the end of the song (before he broke down, afterwards)… "How Long?"

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
19. That is what I was thinking. Some real similarities between then and now. When ever an unarmed
Mon May 4, 2015, 11:10 PM
May 2015

man is killed now I think about how unnecessary it is because they are not a real danger to anyone and most of the times the so called crime is something many of us do ourselves. At Kent State those kids were not a danger to the guardsmen.

I am not sure how we are ever going to end this. The 1% have the power and the guard/police are their protection. They don't even want to stop it.

Don't mind me - I am just down tonight.

sheshe2

(83,751 posts)
20. Hey, jwirr, I am down to.
Mon May 4, 2015, 11:18 PM
May 2015

I feel like someone put their fist to my stomach, and I can't breathe. No, not like Eric, I am alive, yet I feel like I am dying inside. This needs to end.

jwirr

(39,215 posts)
21. My brother suffers from severe depression and his wife has fit because he watches the news. I
Mon May 4, 2015, 11:30 PM
May 2015

told her that at least he knew why he was depressed. I think most of us are like that now.

calimary

(81,238 posts)
37. Oh man - that image. That young woman's shocked grief as the other student lays there dying.
Wed May 6, 2015, 09:56 AM
May 2015

Mortally wounded by gunfire from the National Guard - that was called upon to fire upon their fellow citizens. I remember this image. Hell, how could you ever forget it. These students were just a few years older than I was at the time. There was campus unrest all over the country because so many young men that age were being drafted off to that hellhole in Vietnam. If you were lucky, you had a high number in the draft lottery and/or you had a student deferment. But ironically, the college campus that purported to be a refuge from the war no longer protected you from the flying bullets. I don't think there was anyone my age, looking toward college or university, who wasn't shaken by this and thinking the same thought - "Fuck. Could that happen to me?"

Horrid moment. HORRID.

brewens

(13,582 posts)
15. Imagine a national guardsthing, I wouldn't use guardsman, that was stoked to kill him a filthy
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:10 PM
May 2015

hippie war protestor! It, itself, safe in the national guard and not going to Vietnam. That one fired first and others did the same. Hating protestors that much but still hiding out in their state guard unit is what gets me.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
17. My Father and Mother told me once that that was the day they lost respect for America.
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:31 PM
May 2015

Not all Americans, just the country and it's leaders.
They read that a fairly good share of the populace said something along the lines of "They shouldn't of protested" to "They deserved it for bringing shame on the soldiers"

To this day, I feel partly ashamed of myself for being here.

rbrnmw

(7,160 posts)
18. I wasn't even a year old but I remember people talking about it
Mon May 4, 2015, 10:39 PM
May 2015

being from Ohio it was discussed a lot every year, and this song plays in my head every time I see it.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
25. There is a tape that captured the order to shoot
Tue May 5, 2015, 09:25 AM
May 2015

It wasn't discovered until 2006 by Alan Canfora, one of the victims who was shot in the wrist. Among evidence sitting with the FBI was a recording of the events. A student, Terry Strubbe, hung the mic of his tape recorder out the window. In it you can hear the order to shot. Something that had been denied by the National Guard.
The tape has been verified as authentic. In the search for justice it has been used to try and reopen the case. But that request has been refused

Order to Fire

http://www.may4.org/ordertofirestrubbetapeevidence.html

ORDER TO FIRE – OHIO NATIONAL GUARDSMEN
*includes handwritten statements, May 4, 1970, as written by shooters*

"When the firing happened, I felt I did not panic, held my ground, and obeyed my orders...I don't feel they were people but 'savage animals'."
--Sergeant James Pierce, Ohio National Guard, Troop G, handwritten statement, May 4, 1970.

 

 

“I thought I heard someone say, ‘Turn around and stand your ground’. At that point, everybody turned around…”
--Ohio National Guard SP4 Lloyd Thomas, Jr, Troop G, Federal Kent State lawsuit trial testimony, 1970.

 

 

“As a Guardsman who was present at Kent State, I cannot wholly dismiss the possibilities of a deadly collusion…I know others who welcomed the deadly confrontation.”
--letter to the editor by anonymous “GUARDSMAN”, Akron Beacon Journal newspaper, August 18, 1971.


http://www.may4.org/ohionationalguardordertofire.html

The recording



questionseverything

(9,654 posts)
28. i will always remember kent state as the day tptb
Tue May 5, 2015, 03:33 PM
May 2015

silenced us

i think it was the modern era start of militarization of police forces

marym625

(17,997 posts)
29. I think that started with the civil rights movement
Tue May 5, 2015, 03:54 PM
May 2015

It just became accepted and widely known with the murders at Kent State

questionseverything

(9,654 posts)
30. inexcusable that current admins justice department will not reopen the case
Tue May 5, 2015, 04:18 PM
May 2015

the violence during the civil rights movement came from the states and lawless individuals ...the guard was called out to protect children integrating into previously white schools

at kent state the guard came to "protect" the town from college protesters, they murdered their own citizens

marym625

(17,997 posts)
31. I am not positive that is all the guard did
Tue May 5, 2015, 04:24 PM
May 2015

I believe they were called out on more than a few occasions to protect tptb. Especially after MLK Jr. Was shot

Regardless, I can't believe they won't reopen this. It is just plain wrong. 100% wrong

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
32. I headed an active duty Army riot control unit that was on alert for the '68 Dem Convention
Tue May 5, 2015, 04:31 PM
May 2015

Luckily, they didn't send us. Some idiot probably would have issued live ammunition.

And our only training was for Vietnam combat, not for civil riot control.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
34. wow!
Tue May 5, 2015, 04:44 PM
May 2015

Yeah, good thing. Daley would have excused it too. At least his sin learned something from that fiasco. Still have been problems but nothing like 68.

colsohlibgal

(5,275 posts)
26. So Unbelievable.
Tue May 5, 2015, 03:26 PM
May 2015

Gunning down college kids, some were just watching or moving across the grounds. I cannot believe the State got away with blatant murder.

Tear gas if you must, but live ammo?

The recent documentary on I think PBS brought all this back. May 4 should live in infamy.

One other thing about the recent documentary, They played a tape of a snotty rich gal saying she was glad these people were killed and sad more weren't shot dead. I hope she had a terrible life.

marym625

(17,997 posts)
35. Because they planned to keep the students in line
Wed May 6, 2015, 01:49 AM
May 2015

At any cost. The guards shot at the order to shot. They knew there was live ammo.

It's a horrible event where there was no justice and truth has never been allowed in the pages of history

LongTomH

(8,636 posts)
33. This was the day I learned that: "Little Tommy doesn't live here anymore!"
Tue May 5, 2015, 04:37 PM
May 2015

At least it was one of the days. I heard so many people in my home town voice the opinion that: "the students got what was coming to them!"

I have family there that I visit; but, I never want to go back there, even if the cost of living is cheaper.

pinboy3niner

(53,339 posts)
36. I watched the news from an Army hospital bed in San Francisco
Wed May 6, 2015, 02:22 AM
May 2015

I was being treated for gunshot wounds received in Vietnam 3 months earlier. Coming back from a faraway foreign combat zone to see people being killed and wounded by National Guard gunfire on a college campus in Ohio struck me as obscene.

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