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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"The Problem with Bernie Sanders," by Ashley Smith
Ashley Smith, from socialistworker.org, believes that Bernie's running as a democrat will help Hillary Clinton more than it will help the plight of workers in this country.
http://socialistworker.org/2015/05/05/problem-bernie-sanders
It is a long article, and any summary would not do justice to the numerous points it makes.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)It means Bernie wouldn't probably be allowed to be in any debates at all. How would that help?
cali
(114,904 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Form the article:
"If Sanders had his heart set on national politics, he could have run for president like Ralph Nader as an independent, opposing both capitalist parties, the Democrats and Republicans. He would have been appealing for a protest vote, rather than any real chance to win, but Sanders rejected this possibility out of hand for a different reason. "No matter what I do," Sanders said in January, "I will not be a spoiler. I will not play that role in helping to elect some right-wing Republican as president of the United States."
In other words, Sanders refused to consider an independent presidential campaign not because he had little chance of winning, but because he didn't want to compete for vote with the Democrats' eventual nominee. "
Apparently Ms. Smith wants a replay of 2000, where the "protest vote" would put another right wing nut job in the White House.
Fuck. That. I've seen this movie. It resulting in 2 wars, over a million people dead, a couple trillion dollars spent, and collapsed economy.
All for a protest vote. WTF is wrong with people like her!?
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)calimary
(81,085 posts)Just the thing that our poor battered mixed-up country would need. A neatly-paved path for the GOP straight into the Oval Office while our side splinters out of power and into nothingness.
Who's writing this? Some stealth GOPer?
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)if there was significant grass roots support for policies further left than that which the typical current Democratic candidates offer, we would see that in the form of victories by candidates espousing these views at the local and state level.
How many socialist party incumbents are there in state legislatures around the country?
The answer is you can count them on your two hands. There are extremely few in even the most progressive states in the country.
These races don't require a lot of money to win and you can get around and meet with most of your constituents to let them know your policies. If there was support for these kinds of candidates such that we can imagine a realistic chance of a Presidential candidate getting to 270 electoral votes, you would see a lot of victories at the state and local level by candidates with these views.
And to be sure, these candidates are out there competing for these races. They just dont get a lot of votes.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Of course, I live in North Carolina. Most of them campaign like they're afraid of offending corporations or billionaires and act like the ACA is too far left for them.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)socialist and green candidates for most races.
They just don't get a lot of votes.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)Let alone that even at the state and local levels, there are socialist and green candidates (whom I'm sure get plenty of media attention and campaign contributions! )
The right-wingers are the most reliable voters, and it's not just in national races. Add the fact that the money (which could just be local business groups i.e. the local Chambers of Commerce) and the media are almost always on their side, and it's a totally uphill battle.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)and get their message out to most of the constituents in their districts.
There is no excuse there.
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)99Forever
(14,524 posts).... Here on Earth.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)ways. He did not find the support and money he needed to run as a Socialist and since he is a democratic socialist I am not sure he would have anyhow.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)they believe Bernie's "job" is to eventually, in the end, deliver the left to Hillary rather than build a strong 3 party movement outside the two capitalist parties. the far lefties i know do not like Bernie. the socialist worker paper is the ISO (international socialist organization) they have a reputation for being "doctrinaire". I don't know much about them otherwise, I have just seen them at protest events.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)He was an adjunct professor at a local college. I told him I had a grad degree and was sympathetic to socialism in theory but I don't see socialists getting elected to statewide or nationwide offices and that third parties be they on the left or right invariably hurt the party closest to them...
Earnest fella though...It's hot in the Valley in the Summer... At the Noho station you have the street preachers and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)and the realities of that system, or remain outside of it. I vow every election i am done with what i consider the lesser evil thing because i truly am a far leftie, but , in the end, I vote for the Democrat. always. I live in a blue state and could get away with voting 3rd party but i don't.
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)purity test.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)Hiraeth
(4,805 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)If you like at his policies he's just a left-liberal...
Socialist is just a boogeyman...
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)if he DIDN'T run as a Democrat. the running as a Democrat thing annoys them because those Bernie votes will ultimately go to Hillary if he loses (and they know he will lose because that is part of the "plan" .
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)they could be the most "left" person ever.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)going to teach us that it is not a bad word. Many of us consider ourselves to be socialist but we are realistic.
As to the plot to help Hillary. Bernie has already said he will not be a spoiler. I respect him for that. We are in big trouble in this country and we cannot afford another 8 years of corporatism.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)is enough. This article in the OP is a classic stance. The ISO is more like campus cult that exists to sell newspapers.
KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)capitalism is worth preserving. Most socialists think capitalism needs to be jettisoned either quickly via revolution or slowly and incrementally through the electoral process.
TBF
(31,999 posts)but unfortunately we are here in the USA with a 2-party system. As Emma Goldman stated, if voting changed anything they'd outlaw it. My view as a socialist is that where we can do some good with voting we should (and voting for someone like Bernie could in fact help a great many people through taxation etc so it's worth it) as we fight the larger battle of ousting capitalism. Through movements, protest, strike, educating & changing opinion etc.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)According to Ms. Ashley, Bernie should have run for governor of Vermont:
"But if Sanders really wanted to participate in mobilizing millions to resist the status quo in U.S. politics, he had other options to launching himself into the circus of a Democratic presidential campaign as the designated marginal renegade. And he rejected them.
"For one, he could have set a very different example, with a far greater chance of success, if he ran for governor in Vermont against the Democratic Party's incumbent Peter Shumlin, who has betrayed promises to implement a single-payer health care system, create green, union jobs and much more.
"Faced with a budget crisis, Shumlin and the state's Democrats refused to raise taxes on the rich to fulfill their promises. Instead, they imposed cuts in social services, education, and environmental programs, and laid off scores of state workers. Shumlin even went so far as to call for the banning of teachers' right to strike.
"Sanders is Vermont's most popular politician. With the backing of the Progressive Party, he could have run for governor as an independent and easily defeated both the Democratic and Republican nominees, and never faced the accusation of being a spoiler that is inevitably thrown at any third-party challenger.
"A victory for a truly independent campaign by Sanders would have been even bigger than Kshama Sawant's election to the Seattle City Council as an open socialist. In so doing, Sanders could have built momentum for a national third party alternative to represent workers and the oppressed."
cali
(114,904 posts)Democrats in both houses tried to raise taxes on the rich. Straight out lie that they went along with Peter. As single payer, it's complex, but though I'm no fan of his, this wasn't entirely the guv's fault. Cuts to environmental programs? Nope, another stupid lie. And the guv actually has instituted programs to create green jobs. Medicaid, food stamps, and welfare programs were not cut.
I could go on. Why bother? That rag consistently LIES.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)I prefer the word "errors" to the word "lies." Errors are discrepancies between statements and facts. Lies are discrepancies between what a person believes to be true and what that person says. Not every mistake is a lie.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Hillary Clinton certainly doesn't regard Sanders as a threat. She knows that the election business follows the golden rule: Whoever has more gold, wins. Clinton is expected to amass a war chest of more than $1 billion, mostly from Wall Street and Corporate America, to pay for advertising, an army of paid staff and Astroturf support. This will overwhelm Sanders' fundraising goal of $50 million and his underdeveloped volunteer infrastructure.
In fact, Clinton regards Sanders as an asset to her campaign. He will bring enthusiasm and attention to Democratic primaries that promised to be lackluster at best. He will also help her frame the election on populist terms that have widespread support. That benefits the Democrats and undermines the Republicans, who have little to say about inequality, except that they like it.
This is an accurate analysis. The only thing the author is wrong about is that this is somehow bad. Would she prefer a Republican president?
That was my thought exactly. Third parties that are left of center, become spoilers for Democrats and give the election to Republicans. I will vote for Bernie in our state primary, but if he were running as a third party and managed to get on my states ballot, I would not vote for him. One thing that is certain is that if the Republicans win the presidency, it will be held by a neo-fascist reactionary (they all are) and that would be disastrous to this nation.
okaawhatever
(9,457 posts)Nader voter's demographics show that he only had 1% more support from those making under 15k than he did of those making over 100k. Also, half of his votes in Florida came from moderates and conservatives.
http://www.amarkfoundation.org/pdf/ralph-nader-potential-impact-2000-election-mar-17.pdf
I haven't seen a socialist website or article yet that focused on facts. They are all propaganda.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Third-party challenges don't have "the prospect of breaking their stranglehold on votes from workers and the oppressed," but they do have the prospect of throwing elections to the GOP.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)KingCharlemagne
(7,908 posts)calling the race?
Marr
(20,317 posts)stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)Without him in the race millions of Americans wouldn't even be exposed to the ideas he espouses and many of us share. Bernie expresses these policies in tangible, practical, action-based, no-nonsense terms that no one else running for President does. So, AMERICA will benefit if Bernie runs by being exposed to great left-wing ideas. Not just Hillary.
Even if Hillary ultimately benefits (if she wins the nomination), that's clearly better than Jeb Bush or Scott Walker in the Executive Office. And, I do believe if Hillary wins the nomination she's going to need more help than is currently believed by some around here to win the Presidency. The enthusiasm that Bernie brings to this election will be great for her, and Bernie will support her if he loses the Primary no doubt.
So, Bernie running as a Democrat is great. Bernie running as an independent is a nightmare.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)country. IMO just the idea that we are going to have a REAL issues oriented debate is exciting to me. I am tired of half answers and side stepping.
procon
(15,805 posts)A two way race is always more interesting because there is the potential for conflict and contrasting views that attract more media coverage, which in turn generates voter interest. Sanders views will tug Clinton's policies toward the left, and that will make her an even more appealing candidate to social progressives.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)Found this interesting, but would like to know more about him:
"In jumping into the Democratic Party primaries, Sanders appointed a quintessential corporate party insider, Ted Devine, to be his campaign manager. Devine has worked for a series of Democratic presidential campaigns, stretching back to Walter Mondale and running through to John Kerry."
Here's a bit from the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/11/11/tad-devine-signs-on-to-work-with-bernie-sanders-on-potential-2016-run/
Edit to correct: "Ted" Devine should be "Tad" Devine. Author's typo led to my misspelling.
olddots
(10,237 posts)n.t.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)I would like to know more, olddots.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,708 posts)The author also called Senators Kerry and Boxer lackeys.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Koinos
(2,792 posts)I am also convinced that Clinton does not fear Bernie and has her reasons for "welcoming" him into the race.
There are always forces at work that we are not privy to, and they are almost always linked to money.
Koinos
(2,792 posts)Last edited Wed May 6, 2015, 01:57 PM - Edit history (1)
Found this (for those who are interested) about Bernie Sanders and Tad Devine:
http://www.nationaljournal.com/politics/this-is-how-bernie-sanders-will-run-for-president-20141113
Edited to correct "Ted" to "Tad."