The TPP is the death knell for our country's economy

[Aerows]

and Australia and New Zealand had best wise up, because it is not in their best interest, either.

It's going to take people from all countries to resist this agreement if we have even an ounce of sovereignty over the countries we live in.

[NYC_SKP]

1. Yes, even Hillary said, while SOS, that it covers 40% of world commerce. Fuck that shit.

Tipping point, we are on the brink of not having any power left whatsoever.

[Aerows]

2. I sometimes wonder

if that point has already passed.

I do NOT understand anyone that supports it.

I just don't.

[Jackpine Radical]

53. If you're talking about conventional political power,

we're way past that tipping point.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

The US is dominated by a rich and powerful elite.
So concludes a recent study by Princeton University Prof Martin Gilens and Northwestern University Prof Benjamin I Page.
This is not news, you say.
Perhaps, but the two professors have conducted exhaustive research to try to present data-driven support for this conclusion. Here's how they explain it:
Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organised groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on US government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
In English: the wealthy few move policy, while the average American has little power.

I really believe that we're at the point where nothing less than a nonviolent and massive civil resistance movement will do much.

And I'd as soon have Bernie in the White House when we do it.

As it happens, I posted this just a bit ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10248339

[Hoyt]

3. Good luck. Folks in most of the other countries asked to he part of the TPP.

Whether they agree to Obama's stringent requirements is another thing. We'll know soon enough.

[Elwood P Dowd]

5. Yes, I saw that. Thousands of "folks" in other countries marching in the streets

singing "we want TPP, we want TPP". Yes, everybody wants to TPP with us.

[neverforget]

8. Any links to back that claim up or is this just Hoyt's opinion?

[Hoyt]

9. Well, no one is twisting their arms. Any of the countries could drop out at any time.

Surely you don't need a link for that.

By the he way, anything I post without a link is my opinion.

[neverforget]

10. Links for this claim:

"Folks in most of the other countries asked to he part of the TPP"

Who are these "folks"? Government officials? Corporations? Regular people? Surely you have something to link to that?

[Hoyt]

13. How do you think the government trade reps became potential parties?

Everyone of the countries are volunteers, unless you think the evil corporations held a gun to their heads as they try to take over the world.

[neverforget]

21. so in other words, the regular citizens of those countries aren't

clamoring for the TPP. That's what you make it sound like. Instead, it's just the corporations who stand to profit from getting labor as cheaply as possible.

[Hoyt]

63. I would suggest to you that a peasant in Vietnam would love to get a good job and see the country

prosper, especially since we bombed the hell out of those poor people 50 years ago.

You might not think of $0.75 a day as a good job, but they might, especially as the country attracts more investment and higher wages. Think Mexico, some of the farmers there who were making 50 cents a day scratching out a living, now can get $8/hour auto jobs. That'll help them and the country.

[neverforget]

64. I would suggest to you that the government of Vietnam doesn't give a shit about their

people, wages or environment. What's keeping Vietnam from paying their people more with a minimum wage? There are companies there now paying those poor people shit wages. Why do you think that suddenly, they'll be paid more?

[Hoyt]

66. I'd suggest that poor countries don't have the capital to pay a lot nire. Take USA up to about

1935 or so. Lots of people were not much different than the peasants in Vietnam. As we got investment and companies like Ford came along, things improved, unions helped as well, as did education, innovation, social security, etc. But it didn't happen overnight.

It will happen there, unless you guys manage to deny them that because you a afraid your income might fall (likely won't, but the fear here is hard to overcome). It will happen much faster if the TPP requires improvements and has sanctions.

My guess is most of the critics don't care about them. Some Nationalist here have pretty much said that.

[JDPriestly]

12. What "folks"? Corporate "folks"? The oligarchs in near-medieval countries?

People who hate America and want us to become completely impoverished and de-industrialized? What "folks"?

"Folks" who want the good jobs that Americans sacrificed to get?

"Folks" in countries where education is less expensive than here?

Rich "Folks" who figure they can squeeze the last penny out of what is left of what used to be America's wealth?

What "folks"?

[Hoyt]

14. Duly elected government officials. Do you also think all the governments are puppets of

the evil corporations?

[polly7]

15. I think most are, at the present time. nt.

[Hoyt]

16. Sad. I gotta get up early in the morning and go to my evil small corporate job.

[polly7]

19. Yes, it IS sad.

Read just a bit about all of the poorest of the poor in countries with corrupt govt's who are OWNED by the corporations that decimate their environment, have destroyed their ability to trade fairly and turned them into nothing but slaves to the IMF and World Bank.

It's not all about you.

[Elwood P Dowd]

22. Maybe the boys at Heritage will give you the day off.

Just tell them you were working the internet boards late for Mitch and John.

[Art_from_Ark]

23. Make that the "folks" at Heritage

[Hoyt]

28. Brookings. And your allies on TPP are xenophobic, Nationalist, myopic Tbaggers.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/order-from-chaos/posts/2015/03/13-geopolitical-importance-transpacific-partnership

http://www.brookings.edu/research/opinions/2015/04/09-trade-promotion-authority-trans-pacific-partnership-negotiations-meltzer

http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2013/09/trans-pacific-partnership-meltzer

Job a few pieces you should read, but won't.

[JDPriestly]

20. Ours is. Why not their's? Yes. I think that government officials all over the world have

been bought by the wealthy of the world. Name a country in which that is not the case. Maybe Switzerland, ironically enough.

[polly7]

31. Greece, and Iceland.

Venezuela and some other SA countries.



I think the majority of the rest are completely owned by the wealthy, or beholden to them as 'allies'.

[Major Hogwash]

26. Japan is a "near-medieval country"?

I'm dying here, man.
That was one for the books!

[Art_from_Ark]

27. JDPriestly didn't say anything about Japan

But Malaysia and, especially, Brunei pretty much fit that description.

[Major Hogwash]

50. Japan is one of the countries involved with the TPP trade plan, Art.

[Major Hogwash]

51. If the TPP was so bad, then why isn't Skinner banning people for supporting it?

Because President Obama is a Democrat who supports TPP.

That's all there is to it.

[Art_from_Ark]

56. Huh?

Skinner doesn't ban people for merely discussing two sides of an economic issue. And in case you haven't noticed, there is a lot of opposition to this from Democrats, especially in the House, while Republicans generally support it.

"Still, the way forward is likely to be treacherous with many of Obama’s fellow Democrats in opposition over worries that trade deals could harm jobs and the environment, leaving the White House to rely heavily on Republican support."

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/24/trans-pacific-partnership-bill-on-trade-deals-passes-key-congress-committee

[Major Hogwash]

70. Well, that doesn't mean it won't work out in the end.

In the final analysis, no one knows what the future holds.

[Art_from_Ark]

71. I have zero confidence it will work to the benefit of the average citizen

I watched the Japanese debates, even recorded them so I could go back and reference them. TPP was projected to inflict significant losses on, among others, small Japanese farmers, who account for most of Japan's agricultural production, as well as related food-processing industries. At best, it has been calculated to be a zero-zum game in Japan, and in most of the other signatory countries as well. Thousands of pages of trade document for a zero-sum game.

https://independentaustralia.net/_lib/slir/w700/

[Art_from_Ark]

55. I am well aware of that, as I have watched Japanese TPP debates on Japanese TV

But once again, JD Priestly did not say "all TPP countries are medieval". But I believe that the Sultan of Brunei would qualify as a "near-medieval oligarch".

[TheKentuckian]

61. By folks you mean "corporations are people, my friend" I reckon.

[AgingAmerican]

4. The demise of unions

...is the death knell of the middle class.

[nationalize the fed]

6. the NAFTA gang- Clinton, Gore, D'Andrea Tyson et al

knew that the loss of manufacturing jobs meant the death of unions. That's why they started wooing wall street.

So now both parties answer to the same money men.

Smart people like Sir James Goldsmith knew what would happen. Watch Goldsmith have a go at D'Andrea Tyson on the Charlie Rose show

[JDPriestly]

17. Excellent. Brilliant. I agree wholeheartedly. It takes only a little ability to think logically

to figure this out. I do not understand how anyone can disagree with this.

This is so apparent if you just visualize the flow of money.

I get so frustrated that someone can argue in favor of this boundless free trade that has so clearly, if you look at our balance of payment figures and our stagnant wages and the flow of virtually all of the profits from our technology to the 1%, placed our economy and our work ethic in jeopardy.

Young people are loaded down with so much student debt that the only way they can care for their children and buy a house is to borrow from a parent (if they are lucky enough to have a parent with some assets and most aren't) or work a couple of jobs. We are in terrible shape economically, and the truth of our economic plight is covered up and hidden from us.

[redstateblues]

57. There are ways to get a college degree without loading

Up on debt.

[JDPriestly]

58. Yes. Depending on your situation. But for many students those "ways" are not available.

Some students need to go to certain schools with certain programs. Some cannot live at home and have to borrow to pay for a place to live. Really poor students can't even buy books. I worked when I went to college. I earned minimum wage at the jobs I did. But now, school is too expensive. Minimum wage won't cover the tuition much less living expenses.

Junior college is a good alternative for the first couple of years. So is living at home if your family lives near a college. But you will still run up debt for the tuition for the last two years or more. Many professions require graduate school. In fact, increasingly just having and undergrad degree will not get you a good job.

[redstateblues]

59. In TN the lottery gives scholarships

For students that get at least a 3.0 which in public schools is doable with some dedication. It is madness to spend $100,000 on a BS in Sociology(my degree) and then start working at $22,500. A year.

[JDPriestly]

60. That's great news. Indiana - my alma mater.

Long, long ago. My dorm/house was torn down decades ago.

I rather had the impression that Indiana did nothing for its universities, that they were not receiving much funding from the state government.

[War Horse]

25. This video should be an OP

The way it's explained here, I think even some Rs might (might...) get it.

[Binkie The Clown]

7. I'm beginning to think that bell has already rung

even before TPP.

I heard someone who had visited both places say there are more beggars on the streets of San Fransisco than on the streets of Calcutta.

[Kablooie]

11. I doubt that you really know that.

Since details have not been made public no one can definitively say what it's effect will be.

That being said, Obama's desperate sounding but empty pleas for us to trust them makes the whole deal seem shady and something that should be strongly opposed unless the details are made public so people can make informed decisions.

[JDPriestly]

18. Oh yes they can. Anyone who understands the damage that NAFTA and trade with China

have done to our economy can know that the TPP will be worse.

If the TPP were good, we would have had more leaks of its contents by now. The only thing the TPP is good for is Obama's future speech-giving and employment opportunities. That's all

[Aerows]

37. Many of these Pro-TPP posts

sound like whistling past the graveyard.

[Major Hogwash]

24. Ask not for whom the death knells for, it knells for thee.

[Octafish]

29. Hello, Feudalism!

TPP will work like NAFTA: Create lots of wealth for those who already own most of it. The 99% will get a piece, most of which falls in the top 5%. The rest of us will be left to live life as serfs, cannon fodder and victims for kings.

[Aerows]

39. Outsourcing outsourcing

outsourcing! We all scream for Outsourcing!

Except most of us don't and know it is job loss, degradation of our economy, and dubious tax structures that suck wealth out of our nation.

[Octafish]

47. Walmartization of the Economy

We the People have been sold out.

[Aerows]

48. Indeed

And we have got to fight against the TPP, and stand with citizens of the other countries that want this less than the US does (NZ and AU, for example). It will cripple them, too.

[Octafish]

49. The American people are realizing that they're next on the Owner's Genocidal To-Do list.

What the Owners did to the Native American Nations, to the Panamanians, to the Philippinos, to the Guatemalans, to the Iranians, to the Brazilians, to the Congolese, to the Vietnamese, to the El Salvadoreans, Nicaraguans, to the Iraqis, to the Libyans, to the Yemenis and a whole bunch more places, the Owners are going to do in the USA. I hope I'm wrong, but, so far, the evidence is building for the Big Round Up and the Owners don't seem to care what We the People have to say about it.

[hifiguy]

45. You KNOW Monsanto is already working on this:

[Octafish]

46. Harry Harrison has been proven correct at every turn of modern history.

Guy was a genius, author of "Make Room! Make Room!" the story on which Soylent Green is based.

My favorite work of his -- and there are many from the Stainless Steel Rat to the Man from P.I.G. -- is "Bill the Galactic Hero." I once tried talking Clint Eastwood's assistant into taking on the novel as a film project, "SF films are the highest grossing of all time, you know," but when she found out I didn't own the rights she pretty much ended the conversation. LOL at the memory!

[Maedhros]

52. "Bill the Galactic Hero" should be compulsory reading in High School. [n/t]

[Octafish]

67. It's always Bowb Your Buddy Week.

Two right arms, with Tembo's the stronger.

Never will forget First Class Spleen, Basurero, X, Eager Beager...

I made drawings to illustrate a set of Dispose-A-Trays to send Harry to show him I was the right man for the job. I wanted to cast Charles Bronson as Deathwish Drang.

[hifiguy]

54. I will check that out.

I need a good light read and I enjoy SF.

[Octafish]

69. You will laugh from the first page to the last...

...lost in SF thought, from the backwater world Phigerinadon II where Bill started his career taking a correspondence course to qualify as a Technical Fertilizer Operator to Helior, through hazardous fleet duty where he rose to the occasion of snitching on his best friend, to the legendary gold-plated capital planet at the center of the galaxy with its rising ocean levels due to dumping disposable detritus of culture were flooding out the lower levels. It is a blast.

[Sunlei]

30. Australia and New Zealand are expanding trade with the Asian-Pacific market. especially their dairy

industry who would be happiest if the American dairy industry wasn't included in any new consumer trade agreement.

[Aerows]

32. Which I believe

is going to be a major fly in the ointment that is TPP.

[MohRokTah]

33. Hyperbole much?

[Aerows]

34. No

Just facts.

[FSogol]

35. Game over, man! Game over!

I thought the Keystone XL Pipeline was the end of western civilization?

[Aerows]

36. I'm fairly certain

that I asserted no such thing.

[FSogol]

38. Somebody did. Everything is the death knell, last straw, end of the world, the sky is always

falling, etc, etc.



Hyperbolic nonsense in my opinion. It's just a bad trade deal that hasn't even been finalized. It won't cause some Dystopian future.

[Aerows]

40. So because someone said something at some point

it becomes my responsibility?

Uh, way to tar and feather people with shit they didn't say.

I am MORE than willing to take responsibility for what I post. I'm not going to take responsibility for what other people post, thank you very much.

[FSogol]

41. Where did I say it was your responsibility?

[Aerows]

42. "Somebody did". n/t

[FSogol]

43. LOL. A indefinite pronoun means you specifically?

File Under: Everything isn't about you.

[Aerows]

44. File under:

Insult by association.

[TheKentuckian]

62. How much bad do you think you can pile up and have a good outcome?

An avalanche can start from from just one small stone falling
Is your argument that everything happens in a vacuum and as long as one thing in and of itself doesn't bring the mountain down on us that no combination can?

And

Yeah, one bad deal can cause a lot of damage and a slew of bad deals can and does have severe consequences for real people even if they aren't instant dystopia.

[FSogol]

65. I'm positing that we can identify and solve problems without the large amounts of ridiculous,

"it's the end world" hyperbole. The exaggeration gets tiresome and makes many people tune out because they believe it is impossible to fix or it is already to late.

For your avalanche example, imagine someone (uh oh) screaming avalanche as the first snow flurry begins to fall.

[AzDar]

68. K & R