General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsPresident Obama is the drill, baby drill! President, NOT the Environmental President
he claims to be.
It was bad enough that last year, he opened up the part of the Atlantic Coast for drilling. It's bad enough that he's been all in on fracking and that expanding fracking on federal land took precedence over closing the Halliburton loophole-though the administration has finally taken some modest steps to regulate fracking on federal land:
<snip>
The final rule released by the Interior Department, however, would compel companies to identify the chemicals they are using on FracFocus.org, an industry-backed website where companies can post data about their fracking operations. Advocates had sought to force firms to announce chemicals before fracking begins, but under the rule released Friday, companies will be required to disclose the chemicals within 30 days of starting an operation. They will also be able to keep private certain chemicals they deem proprietary as trade secrets.
<snip>
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/03/20/obama-tightens-fracking-regs-requires-chemical-disclosure
But opening up fragile parts of the Arctic to Shell, as was announced today? That's really inexcusable. And the President's record is one of a large expansion of energy extraction. It makes a mockery of his climate change agenda.
Analysis Confirms Major Risks from Oil Drilling in the Remote and Fragile Arctic Ocean
February 12, 2015
Anchorage, AK
Today the Department of the Interior released its final supplemental environmental impact statement for Chukchi Sea Lease Sale 193, less than two months after hundreds of thousands of public comments called its previous draft analysis flawed. The EIS isnt the agencys final decision about whether to end or affirm the Chukchi Sea oil leases, and Interior can still get it right. But it is a notable rushed stride toward potential environmental harm.
The lease sale decision is a golden opportunity for the Obama administration to show leadership by deciding to keep the Chukchi Sea off limits to drilling, said Earthjustice Staff Attorney Erik Grafe. But Interiors publication of the supplemental EIS for the Chukchi Sea lease today is a step in the wrong direction. The Interior is rushing through the process to cater to Shells drilling wishes rather than sound decision-making about an irreplaceable region already under dramatic climate stress.
<snip>
Todays impact statement confirms again that drilling in the Chukchi Sea puts Arctic people and wildlife at risk from major oil spills, Grafe said. It concludes there is a 75 percent chance of one or more major oil spills if the Chukchi Sea is developed, and there is no way to clean or contain such a spill. Drilling for oil in the Arctic Ocean also would exacerbate climate change, adding climate insult to climate injury. The administration should end the leases.
<snip>
http://earthjustice.org/news/press/2015/department-of-the-interior-releases-final-supplemental-eis-for-chukchi-sea-lease-sale-193
Six Reasons Why Offshore Drilling in the Arctic Cannot Be Done Safely
The Coast Guard recently wrapped up a hearing about the Shell drill rig that ran aground in December. The rig and its tow vessel were part of Shells reckless attempt to drill for oil in the wild and remote Arctic Ocean. Witnesses described the uncertified equipment that broke off the tow, the anchor dropped at the wrong time that could have caused a deadly crash, and the jelly-like stuff that killed all four engines because crew members forgot to treat the fuel lines. But when investigators asked why the rig was traveling through notoriously rough waters in the stormiest time of year, the answer had nothing to do with technical or human error: the company wanted to avoid paying taxes in Alaska.
<snip>
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/fbeinecke/six_reasons_why_offshore_drill.html
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/oct/02/drilling-arctic-environmental-impact-greenpeace-piracy
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/how-obama-became-oil-president-gas-fracking-drill
malthaussen
(17,195 posts)Which should come as no surprise for one who has self-characterized as a country club Republican. I can but scratch my head when people want to deny it. I'm sure he has good and sufficient reasons for his views, at least to his own satisfaction. And apparently, to the satisfaction of many others.
-- Mal
cali
(114,904 posts)I look at his actions and words, compare and contrast them, and ignore whatever his motivations are.
malthaussen
(17,195 posts)Actions, after all, do speak thunderous loud... or should.
-- Mal
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)The litany of complaints about Obama flooding forth from the left wing, with faint praise for the much longer and more accomplished litany of accomplishments, is making the right wing sleep soundly- looks like Obama's own party has it covered.
Is the message we want to send to the right wing that the Democratic Party is at civil war, with it's own twice elected President?....what's up with that?
Get Obama's back or we will all see the front side of a Clown Car driver peddling into the Oval
Office.
malthaussen
(17,195 posts)How much of that characterization is aspiration, and how much reality... there's a question.
-- Mal
delrem
(9,688 posts)Did you think the whole issue was just a pre-election charade, the pro-oil outcome predetermined?
Or did you have SOME belief, that decisions on how to vote, based on positions taken in these debates, had meaning?
cali
(114,904 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)Shell has applied for a Letter of Authorization (LOA) from the United States Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) for non-lethal incidental take and intentional take of polar bears and walrus under the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA). They have also applied for an incidental harassment authorization from the National Marine Fisheries Service (NMFS) under the MMPA for the incidental take of whales and seals.1
I never knew they were allowed to run off with creatures. Would that be some sort of relocation?
cali
(114,904 posts)What are Incidental Take Regulations?
The Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972 (MMPA), as amended, prohibits, with certain exceptions, the take of marine mammals in U.S. waters. Section 101(a)(5)(A) of the MMPA authorizes the Secretary of the Interior, through the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service), to authorize the incidental, but not intentional taking of small numbers of certain marine mammals species (including polar bears, walruses, and sea otters) associated with specified activities, provided that, the total of such taking will have no more than a negligible impact on these marine mammal species and does not have an unmitigable adverse impact on the availability of these species for subsistence uses. The Service may issue ITRs for a period of up to five years.
What are Letters of Authorization?
If ITRs are promulgated for a specified activity in a specified geographical region U.S. citizens can request a Letter of Authorization (LOA) from the Service to carry out these activities under an exemption of the MMPA. LOAs are issued on a project specific basis and include operating restrictions and other mitigation measures designed to minimize interactions with, and impacts to marine mammals. LOAs also specify monitoring and reporting requirements to evaluate the level and impact of any resulting takes. Depending upon the nature, location and timing of the proposed activity, applicants may be required to consult with potentially effected subsistence communities, and develop additional mitigation measures to address potential impacts to subsistence users. More information on applying for and receiving an LOA can be found at 50 CFR 18.27(f).
http://www.fws.gov/alaska/fisheries/mmm/itr.htm
grrr.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Right?
cali
(114,904 posts)and then the people who practice the politics of personality and adoration can seamlessly transfer their sweet affections from one centrist to an even more center right centrist.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)with the status quo.
cali
(114,904 posts)I think some people are just oriented that way. that's the prism through which they view politics and when they find a politician to affix their affections to, they're largely unwavering.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)want to ignore it. Tell us that there isn't anything wrong that a couple of incremental changes can't fix. They are in denial and forget that candidate Obama promised change but the incremental changes were in the wrong direction for a lot of problems. The denial comes from fear. Fear that if we ask for too much the Oligarch-Gods will get mad. In the mean time, they ignore the growing poverty all around us. They ignore the crumbling infrastructure. They instead vent their frustrations via hate against whistle-blowers, journalists, and protestors.
George II
(67,782 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Keep electing conservatives with "Ds" next to their name, and we will incrementally lose all the things Liberals have fought so hard for.
"Progress" for the corporate agenda, that is.
Broward
(1,976 posts)TBF
(32,060 posts)You'll need to be more reasonable.
cali
(114,904 posts)I get that bullshit a lot from the personality posters.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,620 posts)Opening up the Arctic area to Shell is the nail in the (environmental) coffin.
And Hillary is leading in the polls. Therefore, we can expect more of the same, if she's elected.
TBF
(32,060 posts)I don't care if he's 100 years old. That man has experience fighting corporate interests and he is consistent with it. I'll take that any day over a corporate sell-out who is 40, 50, 60 ...
cali
(114,904 posts)predicts disaster and yet they give the go ahead- and Shell has had previous recent accidents in the arctic:
<snip>
On February 12, BOEM released its updated EIS on oil extraction in the Chukchi. The report offers a grim assessment of the environmental risks, including a 75 percent chance of a major oil spill and disastrous devastation of local wildlife. While acknowledging these potential dangers, BOEM still gives the go-ahead for drilling, stating that the original plan represents a reasonable balance between environmental, economic, and technical considerations.
<snip>
http://www.audubon.org/news/shell-could-drill-chukchi-summer
KamaAina
(78,249 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)org that doesn't have scathing words for this.
When you repeatedly find yourself at the opposite side of the most respected environmental groups in the world, you just might be doing something wrong.
Environmentalists fighting to preserve the Chukchi Sea were dealt some bad news this montha long-anticipated Environmental Impact Statement (EIS) gives the go-ahead for drilling in the area, 80 miles off the northwest coast of Alaska. Unfortunately for the birds and other wildlife that call the Chukchi home, this part of the Arctic Ocean also shelters hidden treasurean estimated 4 billion barrels worth of oil.
When Shell bought oil and gas leases for the Chukchi in 2008 for $2.1 billion, a coalition of environmental groups, including the National Audubon Society, criticized the decision, faulting an old EIS that relied on an unrealistic best-case scenario. The coalition appealed, forcing the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management (BOEM) to redo the EIS.
On February 12, BOEM released its updated EIS on oil extraction in the Chukchi. The report offers a grim assessment of the environmental risks, including a 75 percent chance of a major oil spill and disastrous devastation of local wildlife. While acknowledging these potential dangers, BOEM still gives the go-ahead for drilling, stating that the original plan represents a reasonable balance between environmental, economic, and technical considerations.
Drilling in the area has never been banned outright, but it has already caused problems. While attempting to drill in 2012, two drill ships suffered crippling accidents that left Shell no choice but to take time off from the project and reconsider its safety protocols.
"There are no signs that Shell is better equipped now than they were three years ago to drill safely in the Arctic Ocean, says Jim Adams, policy director of Audubon Alaska.
http://www.audubon.org/news/shell-could-drill-chukchi-summer
MisterP
(23,730 posts)or polls that say that the more environmentalist someone is the more they approve of Obama
cali
(114,904 posts)blah fucking blah blah blah.
n2doc
(47,953 posts)Someone else's problem to fix...
cali
(114,904 posts)accident:
<snip>
Both industry and environmental groups say that the Chukchi Sea is one of the most dangerous places in the world to drill. The area is extremely remote, with no roads connecting to major cities or deep water ports within hundreds of miles which makes it difficult for clean-up and rescue workers to get to the site in case of an
The closest Coast Guard station with equipment for responding to a spill is over 1,000 miles away. The weather is extreme, with major storms, icy waters, and waves up to 50 feet high.
The sea is also a major migration route and feeding area for marine mammals, including bowhead whales and walruses.
Once again, our government has rushed to approve risky and ill-conceived exploration in one of the most remote and important places on Earth, said Susan Murray, a vice president of Oceana, an environmental group. Shells need to validate its poorly planned investment in the U.S. Arctic Ocean is not a good reason for the government to allow the company to put our ocean resources at risk. Shell has not shown that it is prepared to operate responsibly in the Arctic Ocean, and neither the company nor our government has been willing to fully and fairly evaluate the risks of Shells proposal.
<snip>
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/us/white-house-gives-conditional-approval-for-shell-to-drill-in-arctic.html?_r=0
neverforget
(9,436 posts)atmosphere but they ain't got nothing on profits for big oil.
cali
(114,904 posts)predicts that there is a 75% chance of a MAJOR accident.
And they still gave Shell the go ahead.
Asswipes.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Yes, that "proprietary" business is often BS, and we need to close that loophole. Manufacturers of chemical products are supposed to list the ingredients individually on the MSDS - Material Safety Data Sheet. If they have a formulation they are afraid the competition might copy, they can avoid listing the ingredients by citing the proprietary exemption, but they are still supposed to list all the dangers of the product and include precautions, safe handling instructions, etc. In the case of fracking, they have no legitimate concern about anybody copying the recipe and brewing up some discount fracking liquid. They're just trying to avoid publicly admitting to a mixture containing benzene and other stuff people don't want in the groundwater.
What we need to do is give EPA and OSHA the power to determine whether or not the chemical company has a legitimate concern about business competition that justifies the proprietary exemption. In the case of fracking chemicals, there is no such concern, because the chemical manufacturers all know the recipe and there is nothing secret or magic or mysterious about mixing up fracking liquid. Unfortunately, our Republican friends have cut the budgets of federal regulators to the point where they have almost no power to pursue anything.
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)I'll be pleasantly surprised if he doesn't pass a chained cpi before he leaves office
cali
(114,904 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)conservation efforts, Jimmy Carter he ain't. He has never used his megaphone.
There are many things he could have done. He did not.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)http://www.huffingtonpost.com/a-siegel/pres-obamas-truck-efficie_b_4817605.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/28/new-mileage-standards-obama_n_1836546.html
http://grist.org/politics/obamas-stimulus-package-was-a-ginormous-clean-energy-bill-says-michael-grunwald/
http://grist.org/climate-energy/obamas-deal-with-china-is-a-big-win-for-solar-nuclear-and-clean-coal/
And, if you think people were going to stop driving cars because he gave a speech . . .
The tendency on DU for people to ignore everything that contradicts the narrative du jour (in this case, claiming Obama is the third Koch Brother or something) is one reason why intelligent discussion remains elusive.
cali
(114,904 posts)not saying anything about people not driving cars. I am saying he hasn't used his bully pulpit to persuade people to move toward conservation or initiated conservation programs like winterization.
I haven't claimed that he's a republican or the third Koch brother or any other of hysterical defensive hyperbolic charges you're madly flinging about.
And in the same breath you're so cog-dis that you chide others for the dearth of intelligent conversation.
You can't push energy extraction the way this admin has and simultaneously make real headway on climate change.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)focusing exclusively on extraction. As did your subsequent comments, none of which allowed that he had done anything of merit on the issue, let alone enough to make it more nuanced than "Obama BAD."
You also chose the worst possible week to make this spurious (absolutely false) claim:
Let's roll the tape to the 2013 State of the Union (which you will agree is the gold standard for using the bully pulpit)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/13/obama-wants-to-double-u-s-energy-efficiency-by-2030-how-is-that-possible/
"Im also issuing a new goal for America: Lets cut in half the energy wasted by our homes and businesses over the next 20 years," Obama said. The White House's fact sheet went even further, laying out a proposal to double the energy efficiency of the entire U.S. economy over that time frame.
...
So how, exactly, would this plan work? One clue is to look at the Alliance to Save Energy's big report (pdf) on how to double U.S. energy productivity by 2030. The report notes that the U.S. economy is far less energy-efficient than many other industrialized nations, including Japan, France and Germany. Boosting efficiency could save money and curtail the carbon emissions that are warming the planet.
But that raises an obvious question: If efficiency is so wonderful, why don't consumers and businesses already do more of it? Why does the government need to step in? The report lists a whole slew of barriers getting in the way of efficiency, from poor information about its benefits to actual structural hurdles (such as the fact that landlords often have little incentive to buy efficient appliances for tenants).
Fast-forward to last week
http://www.usatoday.com/story/theoval/2015/04/30/obama-energy-efficiency-improvement-act/26651103/
"It is a great pleasure to welcome some outstanding legislators and advocates on behalf of an issue that should always be bipartisan, and that is making sure that we have the most energy efficient economy," Obama said as he signed the bill while surrounded by lawmakers.
The law is designed to provide incentives to cut energy use in commercial buildings, manufacturing plants and homes.
"We're going to save money for consumers, we're going to save money for businesses, and we're going to deal with issues like climate change that have an enormous economic and health impact on Americans as a whole," Obama said.
Here's the bill's text.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/114/s535/text
And you can probably guess where this is going
Sec. 103. Separate spaces with high-performance energy efficiency measures.
Sec. 104. Tenant Star program.
TITLE IIGrid-enabled water heaters
Sec. 201. Grid-enabled water heaters.
TITLE IIIEnergy information for commercial buildings
Sec. 301. Energy information for commercial buildings.
...
(b)Tenant Star.
The Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, in consultation with the Secretary of Energy, shall develop a voluntary program within the Energy Star program established by section 324A of the Energy Policy and Conservation Act (42 U.S.C. 6294a), which may be known as Tenant Star, to promote energy efficiency in separate spaces leased by tenants or otherwise occupied within commercial buildings.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/05/09/fact-sheet-president-obama-announces-commitments-and-executive-actions-a
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/03/15/fact-sheet-president-obama-s-blueprint-clean-and-secure-energy-future
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/12/05/fact-sheet-presidential-memorandum-federal-leadership-energy-management
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/fact-sheet-homestar-energy-efficiency-retrofit-program&target=blank
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/09/04/fact-sheet-united-states-and-sweden-global-leaders-clean-energy-and-clim
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2015/04/21/fact-sheet-administration-announces-new-agenda-modernize-energy-infrastr
https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/05/28/fact-sheet-harnessing-power-data-clean-secure-and-reliable-energy-future
https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Improving-Energy-Efficiency/
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)chained CPI to acknowledge the good stuff):
http://grist.org/politics/obamas-budget-calls-for-billions-to-fight-climate-change/
The budget proposes $7.4 billion for programs designed to stimulate the development of clean energy technology, mainly through the Departments of Defense, Energy, and Agriculture, and the National Science Foundation. That number is an increase from the $6.5 billion Congress enacted for this year, according to Reuters.
The budget outlines some of these activities, including fixing the energy grid to be able to use more renewable energy, reducing the costs of clean energy, finding cheaper solutions for carbon capture and storage from fossil fuels, and doing research to measure methane emissions that leak from natural gas operations.
2. Extended tax credits for wind and solar
The budget also calls for the permanent extension of tax incentives used by the solar and wind industries. Supporters of the wind industry say the Production Tax Credit is an important lifeline to help wind compete against heavily subsidized fossil fuel power sources; when it was in effect, it provided developers a tax break of 2.3 cents per kilowatt hour of energy their turbines produce for the first 10 years of operation. But the credit expired, and the Senate recently voted down a nonbinding measure calling for a five-year extension, continuing a kind of boom-and-bust cycle in the fortunes of the wind industry dictated by whether the tax credit is currently in effect.
A separate provision, the Investment Tax Credit, provides an important incentive for solar development. It offers a 30 percent federal tax credit for solar systems on residential and commercial properties. The ITC is set to expire at the end of 2016.
3. A new fund to help states cut emissions
The budget calls for a $4 billion fund designed to encourage states to make faster and deeper cuts to power plant emissions than would be required under the rules proposed by Obamas EPA last year. In other words, the budget would give states a financial incentive to do even more to clean up their energy sectors. States can get these incentives by, among other things, working together in regional partnerships to cut greenhouse gases. Theres unlikely to be much love for this measure in Congress: The EPAs proposed regulations have been met by intense opposition in coal-producing states, and Republicans have labeled them a job-killer.
4. Being more prepared for natural disasters
The budget contains a range of proposals designed to help vulnerable parts of America prepare for natural disasters, including an increase of $184 million in the National Flood Insurance Program Risk Mapping efforts historically beleaguered by debt and deficit to $400 million. There is also additional money to tackle drought, wildfires, and coastal flooding.
5. International efforts to fight climate change
The White House wants to provide $1.29 billion to advance its Global Climate Change Initiative, which includes $500 million for U.S. contributions to the U.N.s Green Climate Fund the first installment of the $3 billion pledged by the US last November. The United States expects that the GCF will become a preeminent, effective, and efficient channel for climate finance, the budget states. But the measure is likely to hit stiff opposition in Congress, where Sen. James Inhofe (R-Okla.), now chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, has vowed to fight it. The presidents climate change agenda has only siphoned precious taxpayer dollars away from the real problems facing the American people, he said in November.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)He really would like to be an environmental president but the Republcons won't let him. Or was that Gitmo.
NRaleighLiberal
(60,014 posts)Doesn't I am shocked and pleasantly surprised.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)to use horrendous chemicals to hide their oil spill.
I never trusted him after that.
luvspeas
(1,883 posts)to take either side seriously. Chew on that for a while.
cali
(114,904 posts)I see no need to consult the murky well of public opinion. I view it this way: all the positive steps he takes on climate change are largely negated by the increase in energy extraction he has overseen.
And this decision is particularly onerous- not to mention entirely unnecessary.
hatrack
(59,587 posts)It failed a Coast Guard inspection. But it's ready for the Arctic, no problem! Shell said so!!
In todays HOLY SH*T WTF!? news: The Noble Discoverer, Royal Dutch Shells oil drilling rig, already failed a routine Coast Guard inspection months before it is even scheduled to leave for the Arctic. VICE News reports that inspectors found malfunctioning anti-pollution machinery aboard the rig last month.
This is one hell of a bad omen for everyone.
Why? Heres a little history: In 2012, Shell stationed the Kulluk, an oil drilling barge, and two tug boats off the coast of Alaska to drill five oil wells in the Chukchi Sea. After multiple failed drilling attempts, the Kulluk ended up wrecked in the Aleutian Islands. The disastrous oil exploration mission ended with the rigs handlers pleading guilty to eight felonies for marine crimes.
With that kind of track record, its no surprise environmentalists and concerned citizens are up in arms about the companys plan to return to the Arctic this July.
Naturally, Shell officials assure us that everythings JUST DANDY. From VICE:
Shell spokesman Curtis Smith told VICE News that the oil company still has full confidence in the vessel and its contractor.
This system has since been upgraded and passed inspections prior, Smith wrote in an e-mailed response to questions. This is a case of mechanical repairs, which from time to time are required on any equipment.
This isnt the first repair the company has had to make, however. In December, the Noble Discoverers handlers reported that an oil separator and other instruments were out of commission, VICE reports. Noble Discoverers crew struggled to deal with a buildup of water below decks and rigged up a makeshift system to discharge water from the engine room straight overboard then tried to hide that system from the Coast Guard, federal investigators concluded.
But despite the glitches, the rig continues to make its way to Seattle, which would be the home base for the Arctic drilling operation.
EDIT
http://grist.org/list/shell-oil-noble-discoverer-arctic-rig-has-already-broken-down-but-its-on-its-way-to-seattle/
jalan48
(13,865 posts)RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)Because Obama!
https://m.
gvstn
(2,805 posts)bhikkhu
(10,716 posts)necessarily, as the US uses more oil per capita than any other nation. Supply follows demand, and I've always thought it disingenuous to condemn the suppliers and exonerate the consumers. Which would be all of us.
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)maindawg
(1,151 posts)Just because it's in the budget doesn't mean the cash will be spent. Actual outlays on environmental policy is what you should consider. This president is not an environmental president. He is controlled by the same donors on Bush: Goldman et al. Exon et al. I regret many of you fell for the rhetoric during the presidential campaign. Hopefully, you've learned something.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Says someone who doesn't understand how the US government works.
In the United States, the President does not determine the amount of outlays. Only Congress has that power.
Firepig
(1 post)This is the last straw. I just scraped off the 2008 & 2012 Obama/Biden bumper stickers from my old car. (That'll show him! ) I'm not ready for Hillary either. What's an old hippy to do??
GP6971
(31,158 posts)CO where MJ is legal
TeamPooka
(24,226 posts)bloomington-lib
(946 posts)The Republicns yell "drill baby drill", so we vote for the other guy, who then starts drill baby drilling. We end up with the same shit either way. It's completely rigged. Yeah we might get gay marriage faster. Or we talk about opening the borders with Cuba. But when it comes to money, which can come in the form a deregulation, war, education, taxes, THEY always win.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Thank you!!