Why are sports teams segregated by gender?

[closeupready]

Discuss.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. For any given sport, I thought most teams were segregated by geography

For example, the New York Knicks play in New York City while the Los Angeles Lakers play in Los Angeles.

[immoderate]

2. Indeed. Bathrooms too.

--imm

[closeupready]

9. Exactly. The answer, apparently, is 'obvious' yet

nobody wants to explain giving any specifics. So it seems.

[B2G]

20. Have you ever actually been in a men's bathroom??

No thanks.

I get quite enough of that at home.

[Codeine]

59. If women want to share our pissed-soaked shitholes

they're welcome to do so. One imagines they're quite happy in their own urinal-free/ogling-free environment.

[pnwmom]

77. Privacy and safety. It wouldn't be a problem if all bathrooms were single locked rooms,

but with the multiple stalls, it is.

[hack89]

3. To ensure woman have an opportunity to compete and excel

gender integrated teams would be dominated by men.

[Yupster]

58. Chess is segregated by sex

To me that's the dopiest example.

There are Woman's Grandmaster titles and a Woman's World Champion.

Must be the weight of the rooks.

[hifiguy]

69. That is really odd.

It just bounces off the brain at an oblique angle.

I don't get that at all.

[Yupster]

74. Neither do most chessplayers

The explanation is that it's important to have women with titles for publicity. Most chessplayers can't explain it either.

[bemildred]

95. Probably the fear of losing to a woman more than anything.

Chess tends to be sort of macho at the top, though I don't know if that is quite the right word, but anyway it is definitely about domination, the good ones are very competitive and ego-driven.

If you are not at the top of your sport in the male leagues, there is always some woman who can stomp you.

[Yupster]

102. Nah, If you're a chessplayer

you learned long ago not to take anyone's looks or age or sex for granted.

Many top players become grandmasters at age 15 or less.

If losing to a girl or a kid upsets you, you won't be a tournament level chessplayer for long. Go to any local chess club for the first time and you are likely to be greeted first by a 10 year old who will probably beat you and then feel real good about it.

PS -a story on this topic, about 5 years ago I was representing my city in a city versus city league we had going for a while. I was playing Tommy Polgar, the son of four time Woman's World Champion Susan Polgar. Anyway, it was a very complicated game and I thought I saw a combination which would win me material. It worked and when the wreckage cleared from the exchanges I had two knights for a rook, a not huge but significant advantage. Problem was I was now down to four minutes left on my clock and he had over 15 minutes. Maneuvering two knights in a complicated position in time trouble was going to be a challenge. I was sweating.

Then, Tommy offered me a draw. Arrgghh. I was ahead and we were going to lose this match badly. This was a point we needed because there weren't going to be many of them. But can I maneuver two knights without making a blunder in time trouble? Would I lose on time? Will I lose wasting my time thinking about whether to accept the draw or not. I took the draw. Still bugs me today.

Oh, I was about 50 years old at the time which would have made Tommy 7 or 8? Since then my play has declined. Somehow I doubt his has.

[bemildred]

103. I am.

What you said does not actually contradict what I said. I did not say they take them for granted, I said they fear losing to them, which is quite the opposite. Chess is a young persons game, to some extent, that is true, though experience can pay too. People say it is not athletic, which is true in the sense that it's not directly physical, but you try concentrating with all your power for an hour or two. There is real endurance and exertion involved, and it will exhaust you.

[Yupster]

110. In the 80's I three times got my rating over 2000

Today I am sitting near my floor of 1800 and it probably ain't never getting better.

To me patience was the first thing to go.

I just can't sit and look at a position for 15 minutes any more deciding whether to sac a pawn or not. Now I look for two minutes and then just do it and say, "what the heck," which is not the best way to win chess games.

[bemildred]

113. I played postal, mostly, and over-the-board with friends.

I'm not competitive enough though. I got up near 1800 once ...
A patzer. Not rapacious enough.
But I love the game.

But, yep, that's what I mean. Attention works like a muscle too, it gets tired.

[bemildred]

115. Good story, by the way. nt

[Drahthaardogs]

82. Chess is not athletics

Silly example.

[Yavin4]

93. Now you done did it.

Be prepared for the onslaught.

[bemildred]

98. LOL.

Yep.

[treestar]

84. That's dumb. There is no reason for that to be segregated.

[metalbot]

88. Chess is not segregated

The person who is world champion is the one that beats the world champion in a match. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with that. Women players play in the same tournaments as men, and play mostly against men (since there are more men chess players).

Right now the highest ranked woman in the world is #55. She has all the same opportunities to become #1 as the people who are #54 and #56 and #143423.

The fact that there is a championship process to determine the best woman chess player is not "segregation" in any meaningful sense. I suppose we could just ignore the question of who the best woman chess player in the world is, and say "well, it doesn't matter, because she's not good enough to beat the top men". But that seems completely counter productive.

Are we essentially arguing that determining who is best within a subset is "segregation"?

[treestar]

94. No, I did not realize that the women can compete with the men

Like other things of the mind, one day there will be as many women as men in the upper tiers.

[Yupster]

99. Yes that's true

Segregation is not the right word.

Women can play in any tournament. Men just can't play in women's tournaments.

Anyone can be earn a Grandmaster title, but only a woman can earn a Women's Grandmaster title. There is no Men's Grandmaster title.

Anyone can be World Champion (Laugh, cough, if only I didn't throw pieces away every game), but only a woman can become Woman's World Champion.

Segregated isn't the right word. Maybe sometimes sexually exclusive?

Chessplayers generally shake their heads.

Why is there a woman's grandmaster title? A woman's World Champion? Since chess is chess, why divide and exclude people?

[cali]

4. huh? because of the obvious.

[LanternWaste]

16. As obvious as Ira Aldridge being the first black man to play Othello on a U.S. stage.

As obvious as Ira Aldridge being the first black man to play Othello on a U.S. stage.

[cali]

67. ridiculous comparison.

the fact remains that women are not as strong or as big as men. And in sports like basketball and football, they'd be at a huge disadvantage. Maybe baseball or even hockey, but even there, I doubt it. Look at the problems women have had trying to qualify as Rangers, for example. The metrics of women in basketball, for instance do not support that they could compete with men.

So sorry if this doesn't fit some narrative, but facts are facts.

[daleanime]

5. Why are sports teams segregated by age?

Why are sports teams segregated by ability?

[DrDan]

15. why separated by the type of ball being used

why are tennis balls not allowed in baseball?

[daleanime]

18. Why not a cube or some other shape besides spherical?

Why play instead of study?

[DrDan]

31. exactly - why not a game with a prolate spheroid?

[closeupready]

36. Why not 'nite' instead of fucking 'night'?!

For dog's sake!!

[DrDan]

42. you got something against "knight"?

[BeyondGeography]

6. Because co-ed ice hockey would be cruel and unusual

[KamaAina]

10. Hayley Wickenheiser, daughter of NHL star Doug Wickenheiser

and star for the Canadian national team that keeps beating us , has played in men's leagues in Europe.

[BeyondGeography]

13. I know; they play nicer over there

[dembotoz]

43. we had a girl or two on my kids high school hockey team

They held their own
Although I will admit a couple opposing players discovered the hard way you do not pick on them
The team would not stand for it

[Goblinmonger]

96. So they played but had to be protected?

That seems counter productive.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

101. Ice hockey is cruel and unusual.

It's the only sport I know of which has rules about how to break the rules.

[cyberswede]

7. Coed teams aren't

They're not usually professional sports, though.

[geek tragedy]

8. How would co-ed basketball look in NCAA games? nt

[KamaAina]

11. Wheelchair sports teams generally are not

both the wheelchair basketball and power soccer games I've seen this spring featured integrated teams. In fact, the all-woman power soccer team won both its games over integrated teams rather handily!

[cwydro]

12. What is your point?

Why not just come out and make it?

[closeupready]

24. Stumped?

Hard question, I know.

[Buzz Clik]

14. duh.

[closeupready]

26. I disagree.

[Buzz Clik]

30. Who gives a shit?

[closeupready]

35. Certainly, I don't care if you don't care.

[Buzz Clik]

40. At least we agree on that.

[trumad]

17. I have no idea.

Meet 7-foot, 380-pound Dondre Harris: The nation's tallest HS football defensive lineman

[hifiguy]

28. You sure about that?? I only see a building with arms and legs.

Scary.

I think I can guess what he calls opponents: Lunch.

[Lochloosa]

33. Ok. Which side of the ball is he lined up on?

Go the other way.

[hifiguy]

39. He lines up anywhere he wants to.

In front of, behind, or around the ball. Or all three at once.

[yuiyoshida]

112. For some reason the name

SHAQUILLE O'NEIL keeps popping into my head....

z

[B2G]

19. Do you think they shouldn't be?

If so, why?

[closeupready]

22. Is that not sexism?

[B2G]

27. No, it's not

But you evidently do.

Discuss.

[closeupready]

34. It is, though. You are just being antagonistic, as usual.

Done with you. Bye-bye!

[B2G]

44. Later gator.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. Wow - that's a remarkably un-self-aware post

You post an OP without giving any of your own opinions, you ignore several posts that give reasons for 'segregated' teams, or examples that aren't, and go for the one that asks you your opinion.

Your non-reply to that is 'is that not sexism?'; when the person says, quite reasonably, 'no', and 'but you evidently do' (meaning ...do think so, I guess); then you suddenly claim they are the one who is 'antagonistic'. And you add a personal 'as usual', just to step over the line from arguing for the sake of argument by 'asking questions' but never bothering to answer any, to making this about another DUer.

You made this whole thread antagonistic.

[cwydro]

66. Thank you. nt

[Major Nikon]

71. If men were allowed on the LPGA tour, do you think a woman would ever win again?

How about if we let men try out for the WNBA. Do you think there would be any women left playing?

Julie Croteau played NCAA baseball and is one of two women to play in the MLB winter league. There's no rule on the PGA that says women can't play. There have been women who tried, but none have ever completed a PGA tour event.

The reality is that men's sports are really co-ed and women's sports are segregated. It's just that women can't compete at the highest level with men and it would be unfair for men to compete in women's sports.

[treestar]

85. they should not be if there is a woman who can qualify

Maybe she'd be the only women, but if she's better than the man she replaced, she deserves to be on the team.

Sports like golf or tennis - they should open those up to coed competitions since they don't involve direct contact. I think they are scared women would do too well.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

90. Golf is open

a few women have tried men's tour events, but not gotten very far.

Marina Navratilova and Serena Williams have commented that the top women in tennis would have no chance against any man in the top 100 or so.

Billie Jean King did beat Bobby Riggs in 1973. Bobby Riggs was a top-ranked player in the 1930's and 40's, but may have lost a step in the intervening decades.

I don't think anyone is scared of women's success in those sports.

[treestar]

92. Maybe that's why sports are so important now

And the military. The last things men can cling to as proving only they can do things.

I'm glad golf is open.

[philosslayer]

21. Because men, in general, are stronger and faster than women

Is this a serious question?

[olddots]

23. its all about market segments

pretty much all human life is about market segments now

[Exilednight]

25. Look at an NFL game and you'll find your answer. With that

Being said, some sports, preferably non-contact, I feel some women would not only compete, but excel.

There is some science behind this, too. Women, typically, have less upper body strength compared to men. On the flip side, women tend to have stronger cores.

[ProfessorGAC]

29. The NBA Would Be Another Place To Uncover Clues

The tallest woman in the WNBA would be a small forward in the NBA. The height difference makes it a completely different game.

Also, even tall women tend not to have exaggerated wing spans. There are guys in the NBA that are 6'5" have 6"11 wing spans.

Brittney Griner has a wing span one inch more than her height.

In general much taller, with longer arms. Sort of an advantage in a game where the goal is 10 feet in the air.

[progressoid]

32. Why are wrestlers segregated by weight?

[MohRokTah]

37. Because male and female bodies are physically different.

Certain physical tasks are better performed by males than females and vice versa.

For example, there was no women's ski jumping in the Olympics, despite the fact that women had been breaking the records of male ski jumpers for quite some time. The Olympic committee has finally relented. Women are physically more capable of long distance ski jumping than are men.

[alphafemale]

38. OK-The large majority of women would not be able to compete.

That men are generally bigger and stronger says nothing about basic equality.

And some women have acted as the kicker as high as college level.

If they were able to compete at a professional level I see no reason that they should have that career choice unavailable for arbitrary reasons.

I think there is some chance Mo'Ne Davis could rise to that level.

If she chooses to pursue it and excels, she should be given the opportunity.

[hifiguy]

41. The St Paul Saints minor league team

had a female pitcher for a while a few years back IIRC.

[cloudbase]

61. That's the Veeck family keeping up old traditions.

I'll be at the Saints game next Friday night. Looking forward to seeing the new stadium and having a cold Grain Belt.

[hifiguy]

64. Mmm. Grain Belt...

[SidDithers]

45. Because the Oligarch Rulers have determined thats the way it should be...nt

Sid

[Logical]

46. Maybe you can make a real post next time. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

47. Maybe boys would be too embarrassed to be in a dog-pile with the

girls of the Lingerie Football League --






Yeah, I don't buy that, either.

[LittleBlue]

54. Their celebrations are way better than the No Fun League

NFL is way behind

[SheilaT]

48. Ultimate frisbee. Lots of co-ed teams.

Self-refereed, also. Great sport.

[FSogol]

49. Winner! Most ostuse orginal thread. For a follow up, you should ask,

What number am I thinking of?

[LittleBlue]

50. Is this a serious question?

Or is this an experiment?

[Gormy Cuss]

51. Because Obama. n/t

[WestCoastLib]

53. Payback for Eve's transgression

[tridim]

56. I've seen lots of girls play little league with the boys.

MLB isn't segregated, but most pro sports are for safety reasons.

[Elwood P Dowd]

81. The size and strength disparities start showing up in the teenage years.

When I was 10 and my next to oldest sister was 12, she was much bigger than me. She was just as big as the boys in her class and played sports with them during recess and after school. When I was 16 and she was 18, I was 10 inches taller than her, 50 pounds heavier, and playing high school football and baseball.

Females playing against males in the major sports from the high school level to the NFL, MLB, NBA, ect would be a mismatch of monumental proportions. In the NFL, it would be dangerous. I played 6 years of Jr high through high school football, and in my old age sometimes wish I just stuck with baseball only. A few of those old breaks and tears come back to hurt like hell in old age. People who have never played that sport do not realize just how violent and brutal is really is, and I only played it through the high school years. A couple of guys I knew in college never made it to 60 because their brains were turned to mush from too many head shots.

[cherokeeprogressive]

57. Because men are smarter and women can't compete with them.

Thank you for tuning in to today's edition of...

"Stupid Questions Deserve Stupid Answers!"

Tune in tomorrow and we'll answer

"Why do people demand you say CHEESE! when they take your picture? Why not SMEGMA?"

[Marr]

60. Same reason things like powerlifting and boxing have weight classes.

Matching the competitors up well means you have more interesting competitions and more of them.

[doc03]

62. Why can someone that is born with athletic ability and is dumb as

an oyster get a free ride through school? Then you have a kid that gets good grades and their father dies when they are older than 18 and they can't get a f---g dime for school and not even any survivors benefits from SS.

[hifiguy]

70. Now THAT is a damn good question.

The one-and-done basketball players really shouldn't be in college. They are only there because they have to be and have no real interest in education. The NBA should foot the bill for a real minor league the way MLB teams do.

[tritsofme]

63. To piss you off

No other reason.

[Motown_Johnny]

65. Muscle density n/t

[riderinthestorm]

68. All equestrian sports are co-ed teams nt

[Chathamization]

72. Social norms. Ingrained gender dispairities in our society combined with sexism mean that men and

women aren't going to be competing on an equal level. If you want to see an example of the disparities, compare the WFA with the NFL.

If you want an example that doesn't use gender - how come the U.S. can't win a World Cup? Are U.S. athletes simply worse than athletes in Spain, Italy, and Germany?

[The2ndWheel]

89. Soccer isn't as big in the US

In the US, soccer is mostly just a way to get the kids outside and running for a few hours on a weekend. Plus it's cheap to play. Buy a ball, and there you go. In other countries around the world, the World Cup is a goal to shoot for from a young age. They train for it. Then the really big money in soccer is over in Europe too.

Would a football team from Spain or Germany beat one from the US? Probably not. Do most countries beat Canada when it comes to hockey? Every once in a while, but Canada usually wins.

If we're talking about professional level athletes, it's not sexism. It's reality. Especially if you're talking about physical contact sports.

Most men can't hit a baseball as far or as hard as, say, Giancarlo Stanton. If a woman can pitch 95 miles an hour, a Major League Baseball team will find a place for her. But again, most men can't do that either. That's why most men don't play professional baseball.

[Chathamization]

91. Now compare viewers of the NFL and the WFA. It is sexism when we see a huge discrepency between

things like soccer or hockey and we say, well, obviously it's not that U.S. athletes are weaker, it's just that culturally U.S. soccer isn't valued as highly as soccer in Spain or Germany. Then we compare Football, were the female leagues are valued much, much less so than male leagues (to the point where the difference between U.S. soccer and Spanish soccer seem almost non-existent), and we say, well, obviously it's because women are weaker.

[The2ndWheel]

97. Are women more interested in watching male athletes playing at the pro level?

Women buy tickets to games, they go to games, they watch games on TV, they get into the stats, etc. Are people in general just more interested in watching men play whatever game on a regular basis?

Women's hockey, in the last Olympics, had a great gold medal game between the US and Canada. There's not a fan that didn't enjoy that game if they watched it. However, that's a special event. People have only so much money, and we're still at the point where more of us will spend it on sports involving men, because that's where the highest level is. Again, if a woman can pitch or hit at a major league level, a GM will sign them yesterday. It's all about who gives them the best chance to win.

I guess that's sexism, but it's entertainment. If people would rather spend money to watch LeBron James play basketball instead of Diana Taurasi, what can you do? Nobody has been banned from buying tickets to women's games. They're as available to everyone as any other ticket. Some of the games are on TV, and on ESPN at that. It's just not as popular. There's just a physical difference between men and women that people pay money for. People want to see the dunks, or the 100mph pitch, or the 400+ foot homerun, or the big hit, etc.

[Chathamization]

100. True, but like you mention it's a reflection of sexism in our culture. Women's sports aren't valued

as highly as men's sports, and like we talked about in the soccer example, if something isn't valued highly you're not going to get athletes who are as good. So I think it is fair to say that gender segregation in sports is the result of sexism, as is the tendency to assume the current status of female athletes vis a vis males is a result of athletic inferiority, when we don't do the same when talking about the lack of good soccer teams in the U.S. (or hockey teams from wherever, you get the idea).

[The2ndWheel]

104. If you want to call that sexism, fine

Find a woman that can play as an offensive lineman in the NFL. It's going to be tough to do. Tough to find men that can do it. I'm not ready to call the lack of female offensive linemen in the NFL the result of sexism. It's more physics than anything.

It's not about athletic inferiority, it's about athletic difference relative to the men that play at the pro level. Women can obviously be as athletic as men, but it's the size that makes the difference. LeBron James is 6-8, 250lbs of basically nothing but muscle, glides around the court like a fish in water, and even other top male athletes in the NBA can't stop the guy.

[Chathamization]

105. But we already agreed the discrepency in athletes is not the result of inherent physical ability

when it came to the U.S. and soccer. Or any other example - Canada and hockey, the recent increase in Chinese gold medals (or lack of gold medals by other large nations), the success certain nations have in very particular areas (Iranians and weight lifting, for example).

People seem to understand that when something is popular and more resources are put into it, you're going to get better athletes than when something isn't popular and fewer resources are put into it. People also seem to agree that male sports are much, much more popular and have much more resources put into them than female sports. And so the discrepancy between male and female athletes is obviously the result of...inherent physical capabilities? Huh?

You can argue it's the result of the difference in height, but we'd have to know how much height actually affects the capability in a particular sport. The fact that many basketball players are tall doesn't really tell us how important height is, since we don't really know if they are good players because of their height, or if they were encouraged to participate in basketball more because of their height which lead to them being good players (to me, it looks like the evidence indicates that height isn't as important as many make it out to be).

[Elwood P Dowd]

107. This statement indicates you simply don't know what you're talking about.

"You can argue it's the result of the difference in height, but we'd have to know how much height actually affects the capability in a particular sport. The fact that many basketball players are tall doesn't really tell us how important height is, since we don't really know if they are good players because of their height, or if they were encouraged to participate in basketball more because of their height which lead to them being good players (to me, it looks like the evidence indicates that height isn't as important as many make it out to be)."

Male athletes are not only much taller, but heavier, stronger, faster, quicker, etc.. The top male athletes also have much higher muscle mass and much longer arms. Even a collection of the world's best professional female basketball players would get slaughtered competing against an average NBA team. How can a 6-4 170 pound female forward defend and out jump a bigger, stronger, faster, quicker, 6-10 and 260 pound power forward with a 35 inch vertical leap? It's the same in football. They simply do not have the size, strength, and speed for that sport. How can a 6-0 and 200 pound female match up with a 6-6 and 325 pound offensive lineman that can bench press 500 pounds? She couldn't and would get body slammed to the ground in short order. How can a female athlete that runs a 4.7 in the 40 yard dash cover an NFL receiver that runs a 4.3 in the 40 yard dash? She simply cannot. You need to go stand on the sideline of a college or NFL football scrimmage. I think you would be shocked compared to what you think you see from a far away grandstand seat or on the TV.

Women and men simply have different body designs, and all your words can't change reality.

[Chathamization]

108. You can't change your height, but you can change how heavy, fast, strong, quick, etc. you are

Do you think that the shape professional athletes are in is mostly the result of genetics and nothing else? Again, are Iranian's simply genetically stronger than many other nationalities? Did the genetics of the Chinese suddenly change in the last few decades, causing them to suddenly win more medals?

It is sexism when we have this double standard where discrepancy in athletics isn't treated as inherent genetic differences when we see it between countries, but we assume it's obviously because of genetics when we see it between genders.

[Elwood P Dowd]

109. Thanks for the laughs. Its been fun.

[99Forever]

73. Cuz...

...a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

[Dr. Strange]

75. mainly because half the people I was with believed it until I explained the situation to them

[Iggo]

86. ^^^ This is the most appropriate answer.

[guillaumeb]

76. because they cannot segregate by color any more. eom

[Iggo]

78. MMMMMMM...

...RAH.

[flying rabbit]

79. I see what you did there.

Wink

[romanic]

80. Wait

this is an issue???

[treestar]

83. Tradition

Little kids under 6 may have coed baseball teams or soccer teams. I think I've seen that.

One girl I grew up with was a tomboy to such extent that she was good at baseball, good enough for the local Little League to allow her to be on a team - she was the only girl.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

87. The reason for women-only sports is obvious.

If you didn't have women-only sporting events, there would be virtually no women able to compete at, or even near, the top levels in most sports.

The case for men-only sporting events, rather than letting the occasional woman who is good enough compete with the men is slightly less clear-cut, but I think they're probably a good idea. If you want to maintain parity of esteem between men's and women's sports, you need to have the best few women competing in the women's division, rather than creaming them off to compete with the men and making it obvious that the women-only event is second-best.

[seveneyes]

106. In a physical world size matters

[Snow Leopard]

111. Matriarchy!

[WinkyDink]

114. Yeah, okay. How about maybe 340-pound female football players are hard to find?

[Cassidy1]

116. Discrimination and sexism

Women can compete. They are kept out because of sexism and discrimination. Look at Danica Patrick. People criticize her because she can't win, but she still does well. How many tough guys would even have the nerve to drive that fast?

You see girls compete in sports like high school wrestling. There was that story (Iowa?) where the girl competed with the boys and beat a lot of them. Some of the boys would not want to wrestle her because they were afraid of losing. They forfeited.

There was also a female goalie. I don't see why they could not play goalie. Their reflexes are just as good as men's reflexes. Do you also ever see the softball games? I've seen the best women pitchers strike out men's college players.

Google Jackie Mitchell. She was the woman who struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig back-to-back. They condescendingly call her "the girl" who struck out Babe Ruth. A woman could easily player pitcher in the majors. It just boils down to good old boys afraid of competing. They kept blacks out of golf for so long and look at Tiger Woods.

[jwirr]

117. Because I am short and do not weigh a lot. I personally do not want to play with the big boys.