Lets be completely honest here, Obama's foreign policy in the middle east has failed.

[Kurska]

I'm not saying he inherited a particularly good situation, in fact he inherited a horrible situation, but the middle east hasn't been this bad in centuries.

A militant Islamic regime controls half of Syria and Iraq. Our allies in the region no longer trust us and won't go along with our initiatives. The nation we spent a decade trying to prop is up is collapsing into utter civil war between Kurds, Shia and Sunnis. Iran and Saudi Arabia seem to be itching to start a shooting war with each other while engaging in endless proxy wars. Oh and now Saudi Arabia is promising to match Iran pound for pound in terms of anything we allow them to keep in the nuclear agreement. We're on the verge of a nuclear arms race in the most unstable region of the world.

To top it all off, we sat back and watched a modern genocide in the form of the slaughter of the Yazidi by ISIS. We continue to lick the boots of the failed Iraqi Shia dictatorship and allow them to starve one of our closest allies, the kurds, of much needed weaponry. That same weaponry is going to the Iraqi shia warlords of Baghdad who then proceed to lose it when their troops run in terror from ISIS.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but when you're the commander and chief the buck really does stop at your desk. By every objective measure our enemies are growing stronger, our allies are doubting us and our influence is fading.

What could Obama have done differently? I'm not entirely sure myself, I do know that what he did didn't work. The region is in absolute flames. Libya, Syria, Iraq and Yemen are all burning. Millions are being forced into religious bondage by dark age madmen.

Bush royally screwed up the middle east, but right now we've had nearly 7 years of a Democratic commander and chief. In all likelihood we're going to have 9 more years of a Democratic commander and chief. At some point it is up to us to do something about this mess.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Do you have any suggestions? nt

[Kurska]

2. Well at minimum we should be arming the Kurds directly.

There are around a million extremely pissed of Yazidi who just lived through an attempted genocide. We should be moving hell and earth to get these guys the guns they need to take revenge of ISIS. Not bowing to the interest of a state that is completely dependent on our support while failing on every possible metric to accomplish the goals or govern effectively.

We also need to threaten to not give Iraq so much as a nail until they form an actual unity government between Sunnis and Shia that can legitimately claim to represent all of Iraq.

[JaneyVee]

5. Sounds expensive.

[Kurska]

9. I guess I place a higher value on the continued existence of ethnoreligious minorities than you do

[JaneyVee]

13. Which ones, the ones we arm or the ones at the other end...

Of the RPGs?

[Agschmid]

31. The problem is the one we arm will be the bad ones next time...

And then we will be pissed we armed them, and have to arm the other guys...

I see a pattern.

[JaneyVee]

40. Rinse, repeat. I think Mid East needs gun control.

[Jackpine Radical]

53. No shit.

And America needs to give a little more attention to the Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.


Two things you can't fix are 1) Stupid, and 2) Ancient Middle Eastern tribal hatreds.

[brush]

75. You are correct!

The Sunnis and the Shia have been at each other's throats since Muhammad died in terms of who was to be his successor.

IMO Obama's foreign policy in the Middle East HAS BEEN SUCCESSFUL IN NOT COMMITTING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TROOPS THERE.

Too some, not putting American lives at risk in Iraq and Syria is somehow a failure.

I say we need to let the Muslims have their religious civil war just as Christianity and Judaism have had their multiple and violent schisms through history.

They have to fix it themselves. Our presence only inflames the situation.

Who are we to back anyway, the Sunnis or the Shia?

Bush/Cheney/Bremer backed the Shia, got rid of the Ba'aths (Sunni), fired their military who reformed as ISIS.
ISIS captured such huge swaths of land so quickly because their leaders are professional solders, the ex- generals and colonels of the fired Iraqi army.

Some successful policy Bush/Cheney had there. I don't blame Obama for not emulating it. We need to get out but some are beating the war drums louder and louder and although he's resisting, we're slowly being drawn back into it.

Guess the warmongers won't be happy until more Americans are dying there.

[RKP5637]

80. Exactly! I've been hearing the Middle East Crisis my entire life, Middle East Peace Talks, the

truce, the new regime ... same old stuff, and the US is always in the middle of it. I do think this is the worse I can recall. In corporate negotiations we were taught there are times to walk away, there is no solution, you are only making matters worse. That was from a Stanford prof., I think he was right on. Maybe the US needs to go back to school.

[Chathamization]

86. It's gold-fish memory foreign policy. Send more guns, pour more gasoline on the fire, then when

things get even worse forget the role we played in the mess and demand that more gas be poured on the fire. Rinse and repeat until the world is filled with failed states.

It's funny that the OP mentions Libya as a failure. Libya's a warzone right now to a large extent because of this "people are fighting so we need to send weapons and bomb people" mentality.

[Make7]

8. U.S. directly arming Kurds in Iraq

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #bfbfbf inset;"]U.S. directly arming Kurds in Iraq

The Obama administration has shipped weapons directly to Kurdish forces battling ISIS militants in northern Iraq and is considering ways to expand the transfer of arms, U.S. officials told CNN.

Shipments have so far come from the CIA, two U.S. officials said.

But discussions are underway inside the administration about whether the Defense Department might get involved.

The Pentagon and the State departments do not sell or transfer weapons to non-state entities, but the administration is looking at whether there is a way around that restriction, one official said.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/11/world/iraq-crisis-u-s-arms/

[Kurska]

12. Yeah, that is why they currently fighting with 30 year old rifles and beaten up Jeeps.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-terror/analysis-why-kurds-are-losing-patience-u-s-over-isis-n303481

We're so terrified of the Kurds getting their justly deserved national homeland that we are throwing them to the wolves. It is sickening to watch.

[JaneyVee]

17. Sorry, but Muslims need to rise up and...

Take out their own trash. We are depriving them of the pride of fighting for their country and cause. No one interfered with our Civil War.

[Kurska]

19. That is all fine and good, until you realize in this case the South (ISIS) are the ones currently

winning.

[JaneyVee]

23. Their military needs to stop retreating and take out the trash.

The South had some victories as well, but in the end....you know the rest.

[Kurska]

24. And if they don't what are we gonna do about it?

Wash our hands and say "Welp not our business" as we watch a genocide?

[JaneyVee]

37. We wash our hands of 99% of other genocides that occur.

Africa is filled with genocide. No drones, no ground troops. I wish we could solve all the worlds problems but we're barely good at solving domestic problems.

[Cali_Democrat]

10. Provide American weapons to people so they can take revenge

Brilliant plan.

What could possibly go wrong?

You should apply for a job as an Obama adviser.

[Kurska]

16. They deserve revenge against ISIS

You wouldn't be so high and mighty if you watched your brothers get slaughtered and your sisters kidnapped.

[Make7]

39. What about revenge against Turkey? ( n/t )

[Cali_Democrat]

43. High and mighty?

You're the one who thinks America can solve the problems in the Middle East....problems that have been going on for centuries.

Who's the high and mighty one?

[elehhhhna]

81. thank you!

[Exilednight]

20. We did the same thing with Al Queda, and that didn't

Turn out so well. Pumping arms into war zones to third parties just puts more gas on the fire.

[Kurska]

22. Arming secular nationalists who we have been allied with for decades /=/ arming Islamic extremists

to poke the soviets in the eye.

[Exilednight]

27. I don't give a fuck about Russia, and I don't care

To poke them in the eye. If we run around doing dumb things like that, then nothing gets solved.

[BlindTiresias]

25. I don't see a good relationship with the Kurds in the future

The concept of Kurdistan requires a nice chunk out of Turkey, a U.S. ally.



Once they start getting ambitions on Turkish territory is when the Kurds will go from scrappy underdog to villainous terrorist in the oversimplified and imperial American foreign policy view.

[Exilednight]

38. Not only is Turkey a UD ally, there a NATO ally and the

Second largest military in NATO. If their sovereign territory is invaded, we, along with every other NATO nation, are bound by treaty to defend them.

[JaneyVee]

3. Because every Middle East policy is destined for failure.

Rule #1: Never get involved in sectarian civil war.

[Buzz Clik]

33. +1

[SomethingFishy]

73. Bingo.

Us telling the middle east how to run their countries is like 10 year olds telling parents how to run their household.

[peacebird]

4. After Bush launched shock & awe, destroying Iraq & essentially sidelining Afghanistan in the process

I fail to see how Obama could have 'succeeded'. There are some genies that can't be put back in the bottle. Bush opened Pandoras box & unleashed the maelstrom which begat Isis.

[yallerdawg]

6. Self-determination is a failure?

Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Assad, Mubarak are all good representatives of American values.

Unless we control the outcome, the Middle East is a failed foreign policy?

Obama is responsible for all this? Thank you for the right wing perspective.

[davidn3600]

21. The management of Iraq after the invasion has been a complete disaster

That mess was 100% started by Bush, but Obama didn't really do anything to improve it.

Everyone knows it is Bush's fault. Everyone knows the war was a mistake to begin with (except a few GOP candidates). But that's done...it's in the past. The milk has been spilled. The question now is: What do we do about it now?

Not sure this is like Vietnam where we can just pack up and leave. Iraq is in a strategic area that is very unstable, with very ruthless neighbors, a lot of terrorism and sectarian violence, and ISIS is dying to take control of it all.

So we got a big mess and we don't seem to have any clue on how to clean it up without going to war again. Obama still seems completely clueless on what to do with ISIS.

[yallerdawg]

35. "What to do with ISIS"?

"Obama is clueless"?

You all are really disconnected from reality, and are expounding right wing propaganda.

I would not expect DUers to go along with this absurdity.

[davidn3600]

42. So he's not clueless?

ISIS keeps getting bigger and bigger. They just took over Ramadi. They are recruiting all over the internet.

Whatever Obama's plan is to counter ISIS....it ain't working.

[bigwillq]

7. The USA needs to end any and all involvement in that region.

It's a lose-lose situation, and I don't think any president can "win" in that region.

[hifiguy]

76. Damn tootin'!! nt

[uponit7771]

11. Another winger meme on DU... sigh, might as well call this ODU; Obama Derangement Underground

[Kurska]

14. Point out reality is a right wing meme?

The middle east is a mess and our allies are floundering and failing to deal with emerging threats. How is that anything besides a failure?

[BumRushDaShow]

49. The "Middle East"

or whatever the descendents of European colonialists have decided to call it over the past century, has been in perpetual wars for some 3000 years, with an escalation of discord occurring post 632 AD. It's just so arrogant to somehow pluck out one instant in time during which this young nation decided to plop itself in the middle of the undulating give and take in that area of the world (to grab resources, despite already having enough of its own), and insist on an instant resolution to thousands of years of generational war and revenge. It's just silly.

[Kurska]

51. Nearly every area of the planet has been in perpetual war bar the last 200 years.

This idea the the middle east is some unsolvable knot on which we can have no influence, so why even try, is the silly idea.

[BumRushDaShow]

64. You miss the length of time

There is a difference between "200 years" and "3000" years. Many of the "ancient" (not "modern&quot wars involved familial dynasties that tied military might into their search for natural resources. Introduce religion in the midst of that, and now you multiply the issue - notably the current situation of Shia versus Sunni (not unlike Catholic versus Protestant).

Again, to cherry-pick what is a tiny slice of modern time within the depth and breadth of a long period of warring ancient kingdoms and "empires", is just silly.

[uponit7771]

52. No, the overt sophistry of placing Bush's mess on Obama is though... just stop people

[Kurska]

59. It is 2015

Bush left office 7 years ago. As badly as bushed messed up the middle east to continue to throw our hands up and claim there is nothing Obama possibly could have done to have made things go any better than absolutely catastrophic is simply untrue.

Two Democratic presidents from now, we will still be talking about Bush? At some point the commander and chief has to be the commander in chief.

[MohRokTah]

30. Yep, the failed wingnut memes will always show up here

It never fails. I watch wingnut sites and the memes can even make it here moments after they first show up in the wingnut-o-sphere.

[larkrake]

15. we are not responsible for the tribal wars, just removing Hussain and bathists

Bush did that. Obama supports Kurds, but Congress wont follow through

[Kurska]

18. Not true at all

Congress had drafted multiple bills to try and arm the Kurds directly. Obama is stone walling them and sending more and more tanks to the Iraqi government that will inevitably fall into the hands of ISIS.

On this one issue, congress is acting more rationally than Obama. What Obama sees in the current Iraqi government that no one else on the planet sees remains an utter mystery to me.

[geek tragedy]

29. And how would you get tanks to the Kurds? nt

[Kurska]

34. How do you think we're getting them to Iraq? EOM

[geek tragedy]

36. Think about your answer for a second. nt

[Kurska]

41. Thought about it, don't see the problem.

Apparently the only airports in Iraq are located in Baghdad, who knew?

[geek tragedy]

46. 1) Iraq also has ports; 2) getting tanks to the Kurd separatists would mean flying those tanks

over Iraqi airspace, for which we would need permission; 3) the Kurds have been overrun themselves on several occasions; 4) they almost lost Erbil, the place with the airport where you would recommend flying US transport planes; 5) US transport planes would be sitting ducks for ISIS guys with STA missiles.

[Kurska]

47. Germany was openly arming the kurds just recently, directly through Erbil.

These problems exist only in your head.

[geek tragedy]

58. they're not sending tanks.

moreover, Germany started arming the kurds AFTER the US did.

And then there's the teeny-tiny question as to which Kurds one would be arming. Presumably, it would be the Kurds who control the airports.

And, at the end of the day, arming the Kurds isn't going to prevent ISIS from taking cities outside Kurdistan.

[Kurska]

60. Easiest question in the world, YPG and KRG both deserve arms.

Recognition of Kurdistan in return for retaking Mosul. If Iraq has a problem with that they we can threaten to stop arm shipments to them all together. It is about bloody time we start asserting ourself in the region.

[geek tragedy]

65. "It is about bloody time we start asserting ourself in the region"

Hoo boy.

[Chathamization]

87. The idea that the Kurds were about to loose Irbil seems to have been media hype with no basis in

reality. Like the idea that ISIS was about to take Baghdad.

[BlindTiresias]

44. Obama is actually acting rationally here

I am fairly critical of the guy but he is making the most long sighted decision out of a selection of bad choices. Making the Kurds overly strong will destabilize the region further when (yes, when) they start getting ambitions of taking Kurdish majority territory from Turkey, which is a U.S. ally.

Personally? I would rather have Kurdistan as an ally than Turkey, but from the perspective of Obama preserving U.S.-Turkish relations by disempowering the Kurds is a rational decision from his perspective.

[Kurska]

45. Turkey has one the largest and well equipped armies on the planet.

Which they refuse to use to do anything to stop the thousand pound gorilla next door in the form of ISIS.

The KRG isn't going to attack turkey just because they have new tanks and modern machine guns. It will however allow them to retake Mosul.

[BlindTiresias]

48. A conventional war? No, probably not.

But kurdish factions have waged asymmetrical war in Turkey in the past and a powerful state that has been given plenty of resources could easily do that again and with better results.

Even if it is not effective, it would still strain U.S.-Turkish relations that we directly aided a thorn in their side at the very minimum.

[Kurska]

50. Asymmetrical war with tanks and no air cover?

Yeah that'll work great.

[BlindTiresias]

67. Uh, yes?

What do you think asymmetrical war means, exactly? You do realize that Turkish Kurdistan is some of the most rugged terrain in the middle east, yes?

[Spazito]

26. Let's be completely honest here...

The border lines drawn during WWI, 1916 are the reason the Middle East has been and continues to be in turmoil.

Why border lines drawn with a ruler in WW1 still rock the Middle East
By Tarek Osman (@TarekmOsman) Presenter: The Making of the Modern Arab World

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-25299553

Foreign intervention in the Middle East began in the 19th century and continues today.

But, hey, let's just dump the responsibility for the mess the Middle East has been and continues to be on Obama's shoulders, easy peasy. Geez.

[1939]

56. Real good book on it

"A Line In The Sand: The Anglo-French Struggle for the Middle East, 1914-1948" by James Barr

A really good read on the origins of the borders, tribes, and movements in the ME which continue to plague us today.

[Spazito]

61. Yes, to even begin to understand the Middle East today one must...

look to the past, centuries past. The Crusades, French and English colonialism, WWI/WWII just to name a few pivotal periods in time.

Thanks for the referral, I will look for the book, sounds interesting and educational.

[BumRushDaShow]

62. The book "A Peace to End all Peace" by David Fromkin

was an excellent treatise and summary of that whole period. A recent interview below:

[Spazito]

66. I think it was an extensive interview with David Fromkin I had watched which...

renewed my interest in the history of the Middle East.

[BumRushDaShow]

71. I heard him when he was doing an interview about that book

in the early '90s, and believe it or not, I think the interview was on the (then) &quot John) Batchelor and (Paul) Alexander" show on 770 WABC. I immediately went out and bought the book that week. The man was just so fascinating.

[Spazito]

74. I think I heard him in an interview on the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC)

it may have even been part of a documentary done by a show called The Passionate Eye.

I agree, I found him fascinating. I may have read his book but I'm not sure as I try to pass on my books to others who are interested. I need to check it out to see if it was one of the ones that helped increase my understanding of the complexity of the Middle East and the outside influences that have shaped it over time.

[BumRushDaShow]

77. Lived on CBC & BBC & Deutsche Welle

(and several others) thanks to my trusty shortwave radio! Great interviews.

[Spazito]

78. I agree!

CBC News television channel is turned on in my home first thing in the morning and the CBC News website is my home page. I love the BBC documentaries as well, well researched and informative.

[geek tragedy]

28. I didn't know that US foreign policy's aim was to babysit foreign regimes.

Here I thought it was to benefit the US.

[Buzz Clik]

32. Oh fer fuck's sake.

We go through this stupid shit every fucking time we have a new president. "President XXX has failed in the Middle East."

Bullshit.

There is no solving a problem for people who have no desire for a solution.

PERIOD.

Can we stop this endless loop?

[truebluegreen]

54. The best thing we can do is get the fuck out of there.

I know you and others will be skeptical, but what the hell, nothing else has worked and getting the fuck out of there has the virtue of having never been tried. Not to mention, it leaves the region free to pursue the freedom we keep trying to cram down their throats....oh, wait. Different kind of freedom. My bad.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

55. you should watch this movie

the middle east was this bad only 100 years ago...........

[TreasonousBastard]

57. How could it fail when it never existed? Obama inherited...

the fruits of over a hundred years of colonial rule breaking down and there is absolutely nothing a dictator could do about it, much less the elected leader of a complex government.

I'm no expert on the Middle East (who is?) but the only thing that makes sense to me is let the factions fight it out and eventually settle down into some arrangement that they develop themselves.

Borders may be moved, some factions will win some stuff, some will lose some stuff, but the more we interfere the more we give hopeless causes hope the longer the mess will last.

ISIS and the other crazies will burn themselves and become pariahs. Power will drift toward where the people want it to.
It will take time and will be a mess, but the way we've been doing it doesn't seem to work.

[MerryBlooms]

63. When has the situation ever been good?

[madokie]

68. And to correct this picture you paint with this

none of it can be lain at President Obama's feet. The dick and little boots yes. The republiCONs in congress YES but not Obama. So don't try to rewrite history. You're not talking to a bunch of kids who aren't paying attention or wasn't even born yet

[beaglelover]

69. He kept his campaign promises and we're out of Iraq and

soon to be completely out of Afghanistan. About friggin' time. We should just keep our noses out of their business and let them sort it out amongst themselves. I'm 100% against spending another dime of the USA money on that shithole.

[TwilightGardener]

70. Iraq is still unraveling in slow motion, the facade of post-Surge stability

has crumbled, and the cockroaches we couldn't kill in 2005 are back to take advantage of the turmoil. That's really all it is. We either re-invade, and spill American blood while the Iraqis run away, or we do what we're currently doing, trying to help Iraq fight off the menace mostly from the air and with intel/advising. There's really no other options. The Kurds aren't going to fight all over Iraq, they're busy enough defending their own territory. It's funny that people are paying attention to this war again, seemed it went on the backburner for everyone, including the administration, since the last hostage was killed. They even gave up on retaking Mosul. Now they have TWO big cities to take back. Who's running the war now?

[tabasco]

72. Failed for who?

We're out of two wars so it's a win for the USA as far as I'm concerned.

If people in the Middle East can't get along, I don't see it as our problem. I suggest we un-ass the area of operations and let them fight it out. If ISIS gets a navy and approaches our shores, we can nuke them.

[seabeyond]

79. bush totally destroys the little stabilization there is there. obama is to blame for not fixing it?

[quadrature]

83. tell that to Libya ...nt

[kelliekat44]

84. If you followed the GOP push we would have had boots on the ground in Libya, hundreds killed,

and the very same outcome. We had "democracy" in Egypt only to have a military coup and the elected President now on death row. Because you can't end centuries old sectarian wars or force Israel to do the right thing is not the fault of any of our Presidents.

[quadrature]

85. tell that to the people of Syria

200,000 dead
8 million internally displaced peoples
.............
are there other potential bad spots
that need encouragement
to turn into disasters?

[tabasco]

88. The USA...

not the policeman of the world.

[pnwmom]

82. It hasn't failed if it's the best realistic outcome. So what do you think he could have done better?

Last edited Tue May 19, 2015, 10:25 PM - Edit history (2)

I'm glad he got us out of Iraq and Afghanistan and has NOT gotten us into any more wars. I don't expect him to solve a problem in 7 years that has existed for millennia.

[betterdemsonly]

89. I think we should stop giving weapons to the socalled Syrian opposition to Assad

since they have clearly morphed into isis. We should also stop givng weapons to the Saudis. Quit allowing pro-israelis to dominate our foreign policy and allow the Shia in Syria, Lebanon, and Iran take care of Isis. 90% of the mess would be over.