Viewers Are Quitting 'Game Of Thrones' After That Controversial Scene

[Lunabell]

"Game of Thrones" has chopped off heads, castrated characters and slaughtered them in wedding blood baths. But HBO tested the limits of many viewers with a recent scene involving sexual assault.

Sunday night's episode of "GoT" will undoubtedly be remembered as one of the most controversial episodes of the series. In the episode, Sansa Stark marries Ramsay Bolton, a character known as the most sadistic, evil and twisted in all of the Seven Kingdoms. During the wedding night, Ramsay forces Sansa to undress and proceeds to violently rape her as he forces his slave Reek (formerly known as Theon, Sansa's childhood companion) to watch the horrific act.

It was an incredibly disturbing and upsetting scene to watch, prompting a public response from author George R.R. Martin. But the episode has also turned some people away from the show for good.

Feminist site The Mary Sue declared on Monday that they would no longer be covering "Game of Thrones" following Sunday night's rape scene. Jill Pantozzi, editor-in-chief of The Mary Sure, wrote that the scene was "not necessary to Sansa’s character development," nor necessary to further prove Ramsay's evil nature. Pantozzi noted that Sansa is already a survivor and thus, "rape here, like in all instances, is not a necessary story-driving device."

[Bonobo]

1. Castration ok, torture, ok. Bloody killing of children, men and women, ok.

Rape, not ok.

Got it.

[bravenak]

4. It's like they've never read the books.

[LeftyMom]

5. That scene diverged really far from the book. *SPOILERS, OBVIOUSLY*

There's a huge adaptation issue: Taking a scene in the book where Jeyne Poole is the primary victim and Ramsay is the primary perpetrator and Theon is the victim/perpetrator/audience POV and adapting it to Sansa and Ramsay creates two serious problems. In the long term it fucks up Sansa's development arc and in the short term Theon's inclusion makes less sense. In TV we don't need Theon to be our eyes and ears, and Theon's role being downgraded from unwilling participant to witness leaves the viewer with the sense that Sansa's pain is terrible because it gives Theon the sads.

[bravenak]

6. The only difference is the character it happens to.

And Sansa suffered far far less than the character it diverged from. She has been having near misses in a way that is quite 'mary sue' itself. Arya has killed. Dany had an awful (from my pov) wedding night. Many small folk have been raped and tortured. This will help her snap out of the fog she has been in under LF. Now she knows just how much he actually cares about her (very littke)and just who she can trust(the few and loyal). Sansa is suffering no more than many and far less than most in that world. Imagine if she were a poor bastard girl. The raping would never end.
I think they did a good job cause it really is kinda fanfiction. There is not enough time to tell the entire story faithfully. Combining characters makes sense.

[geek tragedy]

43. Like the stuff at Craster's keep.

Stuff that happens to the small folk gets discounted.

[dawg]

46. Dany's situation was far more troubling to me.

Rape scenes in general make me uncomfortable. I understand that they are sometimes integral to the story, but I still prefer more of a "tell" don't "show" approach to the subject.

But I especially hate, hate, hate storylines where someone ends up falling in love with their rapist.

[bravenak]

56. The way she was trying so hard to please him. I did not appreciate that.

Grossed me out. After riding a horse all day the last thing I'd want is Khal Drogo giving me bedroom eyes. I'd strangle him in his sleep if he did me like that.

[Arkana]

83. Hey, at least in the show she was of legal age.

In the books, Daenerys is 13 when she's married to Khal Drogo.

[bravenak]

86. No shit. That was sick.

I did not like their relationship at all and thought Jorah a bit gross for lusting after her like that. He was old enough to be her dad or grampa.

[Blue_Adept]

89. But in these kinds of societies it was the norm

And that's reflected in the books, and carefully within the show. Look at the Frey patriarch and his slew of wives.

The show naturally had to age up just about all the kids, with just some of the younger Starks still being young for the most part, but able to grow up during it. It happens with the Lannister kids as well since Joffrey should have been younger and Myrcella is now much older than she would be in the books.

[bravenak]

90. Yeah, it still gives me pause at first.

I have to tell myself over and over that that's just how things were. I really hate the way they aged Tommen up, though. It makes no sense to age him up just to sleep with margaery, but have him act like a child and need a regent. I'm glad I'm a book person. I prefer the books to the show so I don't feel all upset like they ruined it for me. Just fanfiction as far as I'm concerned.
I'm going to keep watching it until the end, and just wait for Winds of Winter and Dream Of Spring to come out. I hope he finishes the books before he dies. I just cannot take it. I need to see the end.

[Blue_Adept]

93. Yeah, the fear of the writer dying is always a concern here

Especially since a lot of fans of these books were Jordan fans as well, though at least that mostly worked out.

I knew they had to age up the characters and it does make things more complicated with some of their actions, but there's no way having them run around as 13 year olds engaged in bloody wars would have gone over with viewers.

[samsingh]

52. the book was worse

[bravenak]

55. I agree.

[samsingh]

71. this did not shock me - it's what i've come to expect from that universe

I just want justice for Sansa in a future episode - and the other Starks

[bravenak]

74. Me too.

I need a Stark comeback or it will haunt me forever.

[samsingh]

87. maybe next season

or after the next book is out.

[bravenak]

91. He (grrm) says that he's trying to get th next book done before the next season.

I hope so. He is taking hella long.

[Warren DeMontague]

150. "WRITE, MOTHER##$#ER, WRITE!"

But, you know, no pressure, dude.

[LittleBlue]

10. They messed up Sansa's development last season

In the books it's gradual, she isn't anywhere close to show Sansa in terms of development. The Lords Declarant were formidable unlike the show.

Her sudden cleverness raised expectations too far, it seems. I don't think it will hurt her character. The revenge will just be sweeter when she inevitability gets it.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Maybe. Or maybe the writers were actually trying to be sensitive about the nature of the scene by

focusing on Theon, rather than watching Sansa be traumatized the whole time or focusing on creepy Ramsay Bolton as he goes "moo-mua-hahahahaha" like the evil demented Frodo Baggins they've deliberately made him resemble.

My hunch is that Theon - while clearly upset here - probably had more "sads" when Ramsay cut his dingus off, but oddly enough that particular scene didn't cause internet shit-losing like this one. I wonder why?

But your interpretation is the one which the bloggers who WILL NEVER WATCH THIS SHOW AGAIN are pushing, sort of how they would NEVER WATCH THIS SHOW AGAIN after the Cersei/Jamie Sept scene got all Wester-rapey.

To which I say, I guess, there's only so many times someone can swear off something, aren't there? I think what has some people really cheesed off is, they lodged their complaints after the last "problematic" scene, the media-savvy writers must have heard them, and here they are ... well, hell, it would appear they don't give a shit, they aren't going to let tumblr decide how they should write their show.

(I'll tell you what's "problematic" in the writing right now- stuff like the extremely weak and cheesy Bronn/Jamie/Sand Snakes "let's just walk into the water gardens and find myrcella doop-de-doop-de-doop, oh, hi, there you are, hi who are you". It played like bad community theater. That scene was glaringly NOT based off of anything GRRM ever wrote, I think)

And also, why assume that it "fucks up Sansa's development arc"? There's no law that says she can't emerge from this even more of an ass-kicker.

[seaglass]

36. Just admit it, it's turning into a crapfest. :-)

[ananda]

59. GoT lost me after the first season.

Way too bloody and sociopathic.

[Warren DeMontague]

143. No, the Dorne thing was weak, but it's kind of typical of what happens with the writers when they

stray too far off the GRReservation (man, I'm having fun making up words in this thread. I wonder why?) ... I was thinking about it, and realized it was pretty much exactly like what they did with Asha or Osha or Tycho or whatever they renamed Theon's sister as, when she gathered up a bunch of ironborn to go rescue Theon, thus making for an exciting cliffhanger "departure" scene at the end of one episode, only to have them show up at Chez Bolton, conveniently run into Ramsay, engage in some clumsily choreographed fighting, and then be scared off by the dogs and Reek, as if there is any difference at this point amirite?

They don't do so well, when they create things for the characters to do out of whole cloth.

But a crapfest? Hardly. It's still the most interesting thing on tv. Even with the sort of lame Jaime/Sand Snakes deal, the bit about "The Dwarf lives until we find a cock merchant" made the entire episode worthwhile.

[one_voice]

99. I agree with this...

Ramsay was/is a monster. If the wedding night has gone any other way but this (except maybe worse) *that* would have been unrealistic, imo.

I think there was a reason the scene focused on Theon and not Sansa. I'm thinking maybe the two of them take revenge on Ramsay...

I thought what Theon endured was horrible, I had a hard time watching that. This series is not for the faint of heart, that's for sure. Neither was Spartacus, but I watched that too.

[dixiegrrrrl]

29. Theon being forced to watch may be an important plot point, however,

if he ends up killing Ramsey. That scene may be the event that forces Theon over the edge.

[LanternWaste]

44. It can indeed, be rather difficult to realize different triggers affect different people.

It can indeed, be rather difficult to realize different triggers affect different people. Even more difficult should one be rather slow.

[Bonobo]

50. Or it could be extreme disregard for everything except what concerns you.

It could be a narrow-minded conceit that one's own viewpoint is the only one that matters combined with a massive victim identity driven by a persecution complex.

[NCTraveler]

104. I would ask you to elaborate.

But the thought you might makes me back off.

[LittleBlue]

2. She's a fictional character

Didn't they see the Red Wedding? Why didn't they quit when two main characters (and hundreds of others) were massacred? Daenerys was forced into sex on her wedding night early in the first season. Lollys Stokeworth was a mentally disabled young woman gang-raped by a mob of 50 men.

"rape here, like in all instances, is not a necessary story-driving device."

It will make her revenge, and Ramsey's comeuppance, all the sweeter. Like Joffrey's demise

[Sheldon Cooper]

14. Rape doesn't have to happen to a real person in order to be disgusting and repulsive.

And furthermore, everyone is allowed to decide when their personal level of violence is reached.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Yes, they are.

And my feeling is a lot of people who've never watched a single episode of GoT in their lives, are now happily informing the intertubes that they're DONE with it. THIS. TIME. FOR. REAL!

Hey, some people like it, some people liked Mad Men, some people liked Breaking Bad, and of course some people like hopelessly middlebrow network pablum, shoveled to folks with a bad laugh track and a lot of ham-fisted science references, to try and make them feel smarter than they actually are.

C'est La Vie!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

42. Lol.

Laugh track

I couldn't watch 10 minutes.

[yodermon]

48. hey leave sheldon alone!!

[Warren DeMontague]

158. Plus, I'm not sure why a show that treats smart people like they're some sort of freaks

is supposed to be anything to write home about.

Intelligent people are socially inept nerds who can't get laid! HYUK HYUK HAR HAR HYUK .......and what is this, 1975?

[CBGLuthier]

160. I always refer to that show as Amos n Andy with "smart" people

Somehow I don't think too many actually smart people like it.

[Arkana]

84. We're saying that this is a particularly strange hill to die on,

especially with a series known for blood, guts, gore, incest, sex, and violence on a Mortal Kombat-esque scale.

[Sheldon Cooper]

97. Yeah, I got that.

And what I'm saying is that pretending it shouldn't matter because the character is fictional is bogus. If it matters to someone, it matters to them. People are entitled to decide when they've reached their limit of tolerance for violence, etc., regardless of what may have gone before. When you've had enough, you've had enough.

[Jamastiene]

134. It is a "to each their own" type situation.

I found Dany's wedding night to be atrocious, both in the book and in the show. I find all of the rapes horrific, to be honest, but that is my own perspective and memories of my own rape that makes dealing with the rapes a sort of trigger.

I will still finish reading the books, because I do want to see several of my favorite characters get revenge at some point, hopefully.

George RR Martin had better live long enough to finish this series or they will have to hide his grave site from a lot of pissed off fans, at least from what I have heard some people say. People get testy over him taking so long to finish the books. I'll just make up my own ending in my head if I have to.

[Blue_Adept]

138. You may end up disappointed

Because the main theme of the book is that revenge never, ever goes well. We've seen it play out to different levels so far in the books, but I'm hard pressed to find an instance where it served the greater good in the end. And so many are hellbent on revenge for so many reasons.

[catrose]

102. Yeah.

I watched the first episode, and said "Nope. Not relevant to my interests. Or getting triggered every episode." I quit watching Downton Abbey when the advisory message for Joanna's rape episode appeared.

So nice to have a choice!

[LittleBlue]

105. Who said they weren't allowed? You're putting words in my mouth

I do have the right to ask, if this concerned them so much, why they didn't bail after the first two episodes had 2 rape scenes. Very inconsitent opinons by the offended.

[Sheldon Cooper]

110. "Incontinent" opinions?

I don't follow your use of the word "incontinent" in that particular sentence.

Anyway, in your world, if you sit through one rape scene you are somehow "incontinent" if you finally, FINALLY, bail after the 10th, or 34th, or 50th rape scene. Got it. Watch one, you must watch and embrace them all, no matter what. Nothing rigid about that. No sir.

[LittleBlue]

113. The autocorrect on my Samsung is the worst I've ever owned

It unfortunately corrects to inappropriate words and registers nonsense words. My 5 year old HTC was better, my first iPhone in '07 was better. The word was inconsistent.

Anyway, you mustn't do anything. I am curious why these people continued watching this show for instance, after Joffrey nailed a prostitute to a wall with a crossbow (killing her). Sansa is mild compared to what happened for three entire seasons on this show. I'm looking for a good explanation for this inconsistent behavior.

[Sheldon Cooper]

114. And I contend that you aren't going to find any explanation 'good' enough to suit you.

You seem determined that this must be an all or nothing proposition. People do have breaking points, you know, and sometimes enough is just enough. I'm really having trouble understanding why you don't get that - if you accept any violence, any at all, you must accept everything, no matter how awful, forever more? Is that really what you mean?

I commiserate on the autocorrect - it's awful.

[LittleBlue]

118. I already have one that fits

I think people got too wrapped up in Sansa. They were misled into believing that she would become the all-conquering heroine who shows everyone she's not stupid, as the other characters had all assumed. She was supposed to go from strength to strength.

It's common in popular fiction for fanboy and fangirl cults to develop, especially when those fans are sympathetic to that character. But this show pulls the rug out from under the feet of fandoms. The Red Wedding, for instance. This is just another example. It wasn't their final straw because there have been far too many for any person who can't stomach these sorts of scenes. They would have quit long ago if that were the case. Their offense is because it happened to Sansa, their fave. And they are too embarrassed to admit that they're just as wrapped up in her character as Twilight fans were wrapped up in which boyfriend Bella should choose. No one likes to admit they're a fanboy or fangirl.

[Sheldon Cooper]

119. Wow. So you're equating disgust and revulsion at violent rape to being merely a

disappointed fanboy or fangirl? Really? Okay, there's no point in continuing with this nonsense. Have the last word.

[cemaphonic]

184. I think the point is that

someone that was repulsed by sexual violence in fiction would have quit the show long ago. There's a situation in one of the first few episodes of the first season that is extremely similar to this one. And there have been rape scenes that have been both more gratuitous and violent in the past. It's a reasonable conclusion that there is more outrage and controversy this time, because it's a character that the audience cares about.

I suppose some of it could be new people coming in that haven't watched the show from the beginning - It has picked up viewers every season.

[PoliticAverse]

3. So when Ramsay murdered a woman that was ok with them? n/t

[SomethingFishy]

151. Or when he castrated Theon...

Or tortured him for 6 months and threw him in a cage with the dogs.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Umm...what about the incestual rape last season in front of the corpse of their child?

Last edited Wed May 20, 2015, 06:15 AM - Edit history (1)

That wasn't a step too far?!

[Scootaloo]

11. The weird thing there is, it wasn't WRITTEN as rape

Not in the source, nor i nthe script. The people behind the show apparently had no clue it was 'rapey" until the fans were like "what the fuck was that?!"

In the book (there's a phase that comes up a lot) it is clearly 100% consentual (weird, but consensual) and Cersei's protestations are because she's afraid they'll be seen, not because she dosn't want to - In fact if i recall, she's chewing on Jamie rather fervently the whole time, so, uh...

yeah. They're a pair of weirdoes.

[FarPoint]

16. That indeed was creepy....Jamie and Cersie...

Regarding Sansa...it was the mental picture, projected image of sexual violence... Seeing Reek/Theon cry in response to the cruelty. I actually see the Jamie Cersei screen equal to rape.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. I think you mean "incestual"

I'm like, wait, when was there insect fucking? I missed that episode.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. Yup.

My computer only spell checks the "message text" not the "reply title" and I usually forget to run spell check. I speak 5 languages and don't spell well in any of them! LOL!

[Warren DeMontague]

23. I took 5 years of Spanish, and if I needed to order a snack in Mexico right now

it'd be, like, "el poppo del corno. El huevo de micro"

[djean111]

37. Thank you for a good cleansing hearty laugh! n/t

[Pooka Fey]

32. "Incestuous" is the word we're looking for

Adjective. "involving incest"

[Pooka Fey]

162. LOL! Agreed!

Thanks for the laugh!

And since we're on the Cersei and Jamie sub-thread, why do people think that the twisted sex act on the tomb of their son was a 'rape'? Cersei is the dominant partner in that sicko 'relationship-like' entity; I've never had the impression that Jamie is 'into' Cersei, he's just "trapped" by his evil family dynamic, IMO.

I swore I would quit watching the uber-perverted GOT at the end of Season 1, because the Zombie Walkers idea just pushed way beyond my 'suspension of disbelief' tolerance. Then I swore I would quit after watching the Theon torture scene - well, hearing it because I had to turn my head away from the TV screen.

Well, I'm still watching that grotesque show; I've become mesmerized by it. My reason is Tyrion Lannister. What an amazing character! I cheered when Tyrion shot his cruel arrogant bastard father sitting on the loo. I love the actor, Peter Dinklage. What a discovery! Yup, GOT fan right here.

Gonna watch this week's show on TV on Demand tonight!

[Pooka Fey]

169. My take on the "controversial" episode 6 Sansa rape scene

For the sweeping hoards, here is my obligatory preface that everyone needs to decide their own TV violence tolerance level, and stop there. That being said...

For me, the Sansa rape scene was a complete non-event when put into the overall violent context of the series. That people would "choose this hill to die on", (as one poster above so eloquently put it) I find a tad ridiculous. Sansa is becoming a very interesting character, she is adapting and growing.

I admit I find Jaime less loathsome than he was in season 1, his experience as Brienne's prisoner opened up his worldview: "Wow. The ruthless power-mad motivations of the Lannister family are NOT universal." Jaime is the only Lannister who treats Tyrion like a human being. I agree, Jaime is the least unsympathetic Lannister, but he allows himself to be completely dominated by his sister and beforehand, his father. As long as he is under their nefarious influence, he is nothing - a cynical person who does what he is told and thinks with his dick.

Disobeying family orders from time to time (from Dad "you must detest and ridicule your brother&quot (from Sister "you must only fuck me when I order you to fuck me&quot is Jaime's only outlet to assert an independent identity. He's nice to look at, and he has the right family name, and he's a good team player. I think he is sympathetic because, on some level, maybe people understand how universal he is - "there but for the grace of God go I"

Tyrian was always the outsider, rejected by his own family. Tyrian has the qualities of nobility, intelligence, and honor of a great noble family. Jamie doesn't have Tyrion's strength of character to break away, but he didn't need to develop it either.

I loved LOTR and the Hobbit - I've probably read each one 3 times - and I have every DVD. I've never been tempted to read GOT, but who knows...

[IVoteDFL]

8. I think the point of Game of Thrones is to make you uncomfortable with war

Every horrible thing that happens to the characters drives home that point. I don't think it is logical that there will never be any depictions of rape, because historically that is a very real consequence of war.

Frankly, it was more disturbing to see Jamie and Cersei reunite in the Sept when he returned to KL. The problem with it there was that the writers and director took a consensual sex scene from the novels and turned it into a pretty rape-y one... and still tried to claim it was consensual..and loving.

The problem with Sansa's storyline is that we've been seeing her abused too much since the first season. Since the pilot episode they have been pushing the fact that Sansa is not her sister and isn't likely to be a warrior. This is her way of using what she learned from Cersei to get revenge on the Boltons for their part in the RW. If she successfully has a hand in it before Stannis shows up, then I feel like the scene isn't meaningless.

[giftedgirl77]

9. My boyfriend left that show playing all night long

& trust me I usually have no issue with any of those things. But I do have major problems with PTSD & nightmares. That show gave me some of the weirdest dreams I have had & they weren't violent at all. Other than a slurpee was thrown at me & I caught it. But it was definitely spawned by that damn show. I haven't allowed it to be on when we fall asleep since.

[giftedgirl77]

30. It was thrown at me in a cup, by a dwarf at a soccer game..,

No more Game of Throne's at bedtime.

[giftedgirl77]

148. See & with all the violence in GOT there was none of that

in my damn dream, just the dwarfs playing soccer & one threw a slurpee at me like a baseball & I caught it. No spill or anything. It was the craziest shit ever. No more GOT while going to sleep.

[KittyWampus]

153. That is one of my most favorite movies of all time. Buscemi gets more and more aggravated

and funnier and funnier.

[Pooka Fey]

164. ROFLMAO

Peter Dinklage and Steve Buscemi in a scene TOGETHER. I have tears of joy running down my cheeks!

On edit: and Catherine Keener - the wonderful actress from "Being John Malkovich!!!

[Arugula Latte]

101. You might have been merging "Glee" with "Game of Thrones."

[giftedgirl77]

103. Lol, that's terrible.

[CBGLuthier]

12. They should all read this article

Last edited Wed May 20, 2015, 08:45 AM - Edit history (1)

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121790/life-triggering-best-literature-should-be-too


The pathway of such trigger warnings—not just for sexual assault but for violence, bigotry, and racism—will eventually lead to every work of literature being labeled as potentially offensive. There goes the Bible, there goes Dante, there goes Huck Finn (loaded with racism), there goes all the old literature written before we realized that minorities, women, and gays weren’t second-class people. And as for violence and hatred, well, they’re everywhere, for they’re just as much parts of literature as parts of life. Crime and Punishment? Trigger warning: brutal violence against an old woman. The Great Gatsby? Trigger warning: violence against women (remember when Tom Buchanan broke Mrs. Wilson’s nose?). The Inferno? Trigger warning: graphic violence, sodomy, and torture. Dubliners? Trigger warning: pedophilia.

[kcr]

34. Should that author having trigger warnings for the word trigger warning?

Aww, it must be so hard to read the words trigger warning. I'm not sure what the difference is being being verbally warned that something might be upsetting, the author's line in the sand, and the same warning written in words. Who cares? If things don't bother you, ignore it and move on.

[seaglass]

13. I don't know if I'll stop watching but it is no longer a must see. I am a book reader and it is

very rare that I find a movie or TV show better than the book(s) it is based on. The showrunners have deviated from the books too much and not in a good way and the Sansa assault scene cemented that.

[PeteSelman]

15. No they aren't.

And the scene wasn't all that controversial.

I really don't see why people are making such a big deal out of it.

[Nye Bevan]

24. When Dr Melfi got raped in "The Sopranos" that was pretty disturbing too.

But it was also a powerful, compelling episode (mostly due to the tension of whether or not she would tell Tony about it). And I don't think it made anyone stop watching the show.

[woolldog]

189. watching a pirated copy is actually not illegal. fyi. nt

[cali]

26. save me from these righteous folks:"rape here, like in all instances, is not a necessary

story-driving device."

wait. "in all instances"? I disagree. strongly.

And I thought the scene was well done and served to drive the plot. There was nothing lascivious about that scene. It wasn't even shown but reflected on Theon/Reek's face.

Yes, it's different than the book. Many things in the show are, but Martin doesn't shy away from violence in almost every imaginable form.

Oh, and did you write the op? there's no link.

[Eko]

27. What an interesting threshold.

I would like to hear more. Not.

[Oneironaut]

28. Nonsense. I have the feeling most of the ppl aren't viewers anyways.

They pull the O'Reilly, "I didn't need to see it. I heard it was bad" act. I was disturbed by the scene, but the show itself is disturbing. It wasn't out of character or any worse than other scenes on the show.

[justiceischeap]

31. I watched the first 2 episodes of GoT and that was enough for me

I got the tone and message right quickly that there would be lots of gratuitous sex (and violence) and women (and men) being treated as nothing more than meat puppets. You can argue that there are strong female (and male) characters in the show but one shouldn't have to wade through scenes of a brothel (I'm not inherently against sexual gratification but I'm against non-plot related scenes that don't further a story) to see these women (or men) make an appearance.

For me the question is this: if this scene weren't here, would the story still be tellable and would you understand the rest of the show and from what I saw in those 2 episodes (I have revisited later episodes--same opinion) you didn't need some dude spying through a peephole at the women having sex in the brothel to further the story.

I also, being a big reader, tried to read the books but could not get into them. So, I think the show was doomed for me from the start.

[alphafemale]

33. Theon? The guy who's dick was cut off?

It's a brutal show.

Get over it.

[demwing]

35. Two points

1. "The scene was 'not necessary to Sansa's character development'..."
Apparently, the person being qouted has the ability to read the scriptwriter's mind, or to see into the future. That, or she just feels comfy with substituting speculation for facts. Only direct knowledge of the character arc can tell us what was necessary for development, and there's only three ways to get that...having written it, having been told by the writer, or after having watched it unfold. None of these apply, and the quote is worth nothing.

2. Ramsay...proceeds to violently rape her as he forces his slave...to watch the horrific act.
I watched the scene, and I'm not convinced it was rape at all. We didn't see the act, just Reek's response. Reek could be crying from guilt over his role in the betrayal and death of Sansa's family. He could be in love with Sansa, and sad for himself. Hell, for all we know, the noises we hear in the background could be Sansa killing Ramsay, and Reek's tears could be shed in joy. Or, he could be witnessing a horrific and violent rape. Until some future episode answers that question, we can only guess.

We already know the script differs from the book. People die and live who should live or die, or the timeline of their death changes. George RR Martin, commenting on the controversy around the scene, doesn't speak to the act itself, but focuses only on the changes in the scene, and on their eventual butterfly effects. Let's all remember that whether we follow the book, or the TV series, we're discussing a work of fiction. None of this really happened.

[cali]

40. huh? I don't think it could have been any clearer that it was rape.

What on earth else could possibly be occurring as Ramsay rips off her gown and forces her down on the bed? We briefly see the stony resignation on Sansa's face and then here here groans and screams of pain.

[demwing]

62. As I said

The noise could be Sansa killing Ramsay...let's not pretend were talking about realism here. There are dragons, giants, and snow zombies involved.

In addition, and more realistically, Sansa could be consenting to the sex, despite the fact that it's ugly and sadistic, because she believes it will allow her to ultimately hold a position that will allow her to get her revenge. Why not? She agreed to the marriage for exactly the same reasons, didn't she?

It's fiction, not news. Speculation in the spirit of the form is acceptable...

[LittleBlue]

107. It's not Sansa killing Ramsey

If someone had jumped in and killed Ramsey, Theon's facial expression would have changed.

She was raped.

[demwing]

116. All this will probable be cleared up next Sunday night

but right now we don't know what happened.

BTW - if Sansa killed Ramsay, I would expect Theon to be overwhelmed, even to the point of tears.

[JTFrog]

53. Oh FFS.

I watched the scene, and I'm not convinced it was rape at all.

[demwing]

61. Get off the high horse

[JTFrog]

66. Maybe when I'm done puking.

If you can't handle the fact that your comment was sickening, then so be it.

[demwing]

68. It's fiction

speculation is allowed. get over yourself

[JTFrog]

70. It's a message board

and replies are allowed.

If you are going to make ridiculous speculations that invite disgust, you should get over the fact that people will call you on it.

[demwing]

72. Say what you like

My response to you differs from my response to cali because cali approached the issue differently.

As long as you post silly indignations over a comment about a TV series based on a book that deals with dragons, giants, and snow zombies, I will continue to respond to you in kind.

If that makes you barf in disgust, grab a bucket and try to avoid getting any on your shoes.

[JTFrog]

73. Be as gross as you want.

[demwing]

77. Your magnanimity is inspirational

From the bottom of my heart, I thank you

[brooklynite]

58. I've never watched GOT...

...but I know the parameters of the books and the series, and I'm hard pressed to understand how anyone who's been watching it for years suddenly feels that it's somehow stepped over a line.

[Blue_Adept]

65. Reading versus watching

Sometimes your mind can minimize it while reading it, even as it repulses you.

When done visually with actors, emotions that your mind isn't putting into it coming into play, it can be more intense.

I'm certainly not pro-rape or anything, and hate that I have to say that, but the show is presenting the brutalities of war and those within power and a real indictment of the kind of person Ramsay is; the son of a powerful man who feels free and entitled to do whatever he wants and does so.

We see a lot of that in the world. And providing that reflection here is important.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

141. it was most definitely rape. nt

[WilliamPitt]

38. It's worse in the book, if memory serves.

I've been getting something of a kick out of all the people who are freaked out by the story line...who clearly haven't read the books. The reaction to the Red Wedding is a perfect example. If you read the books, you know what's coming. It's some seriously ugly stuff, but attacking the TV show for following the story line as laid out in the books the TV show is based on strikes me as a little strange.

Given the content, maybe they shouldn't have done the show in the first place. That's an argument I'd certainly entertain...but freaking out because the show follows the book the show is based on? Ramsay Bolton is a monster. Don't be shocked when he acts monstrous.

[seaglass]

49. The Sansa storyline is made up by the show writers - she did not go to Winterfell and marry Ramsay

in the book.

[WilliamPitt]

54. You may be right

Trying to remember the details of all those books is difficult. I do, however, recall a pretty damned savage rape scene involving Ramsay and Reek in one of the later books. On reflection, it may have been the girl pretending to be Arya. Thanks for the correction; I'll have to take some time and look it up.

[bravenak]

76. You are right. It was the girl pretending to be Arya.

And it was way way way worse in the book.

[WilliamPitt]

80. "And it was way way way worse in the book."

And this is really my point. If you're going to watch a show based - even loosely - on such savage depictions of violence, sanded down though they may occasionally be, bring a helmet. It's going to be a rough ride.

[seaglass]

94. You're a writer, do you think it makes any difference which character it happened to?

I don't think the characters of Jeyne Poole and Sansa Stark are interchangeable and I feel that different emotions are evoked depending on who the character is.

[WilliamPitt]

96. Rape is rape.

No matter the character.

[seaglass]

98. Yes of course rape is rape. I am probably not articulating this very well. Would it

make a difference if the show runners decided to have Tywin murder Tyrion, rather than the other way around? Would it be appropriate to have a different reaction depending on which character was the one murdered?

[NewJeffCT]

175. I think I know what you're saying

Sansa is a prominent character who gets her own "point of view" chapters, Jeyne Poole was Sansa's handmaid who was a bit player in the books and I don't think was ever even on the show? People care more for Sansa because they see more of her - it's only natural.

[Krytan11c]

63. You're right

But *BOOK SPOILER* in the book Reek is forced to perform oral sex on Jeyne Pool (pretending to be Arya Stark) before she is raped by Ramsay. IMO the book was worse.

[herding cats]

88. Jeyne Pool's story is one of, if not the most, tragic in the books.

From when she was given to Littlefinger to use in his brothel on, I cringed when she would reappear in the books. You knew it wouldn't go well for her. It never had and never would.

In the television series they've given Sansa the chore of being married to Ramsay. Lucky for her they took out some of the horrors of what that wedding night entailed for Jeyne in the books.

[Krytan11c]

92. Exactly

In the books Jeyne is just as broken as Theon by the end? of her arc.
I believe Sansa is nowhere near broken and will get redemption/revenge.

[geek tragedy]

39. It was disturbing. To me it points out how arranged

marriages are a mechanism for rape.

[cali]

41. yeah, that flashed through my mind to.

It was disturbing- and it was meant to be. I also think it was very well done.

[geek tragedy]

45. I mean, how was that wedding night supposed to go?

This is one of the worst sadists in literature.

[cali]

47. no kidding. it was actually the first thing I though of when

Littlefinger laid out his plan to Sansa to have her marry Ramsay. And I can't believe that Littlefinger wasn't aware of Ramsay's reputation.

[stevenleser]

51. Agree with both of your comments. IMO at the least, art has a right to describe all aspects of life.

Perhaps even an obligation.

Imagine, and I think you agree with me, if despots and dictators were described as warm and fuzzy people because we don't want to upset anyone. I think that would be a huge mistake.

My understanding for instance is that Uday and Qusay, Saddam Hussein's sons, among many other sadistic aspects of them, both were serial rapists and used their positions as Saddam's sons to avoid prosecution for it.

I would expect any depiction of Saddam and his sons to make that clear, perhaps graphically so. I want them to seem like horrific people because they were. I don't want that watered down at all.

I am not familiar with Game of Thrones. But if the person being depicted is a sadistic rapist, I don't understand the complaints about depicting him that way.

[bravenak]

57. You have it just right.

The man is a sadist in the worst ways. He hunts and flays women and names his new puppies after his victims.
She got off way easier than the girl in the book. No beastiality at least.

[geek tragedy]

67. The big objection, imo, is that they subjected a prominent

and beloved character to this abuse, whereas in the books it was essentially a throw-away character who was introduced for the purpose of being abused and tortured.

[LittleBlue]

109. *Book spoiler* About Sansa's potential book husband

Spoiler

.






.

Harry the Heir sounds like Robert mk 2. He already has at least one bastard daughter despite his youth. The show writers might be aware of Harry's nature and simply merged Harry and Ramsey. So a similarly miserable outcome might already be planned for her anyway

[demwing]

117. It was pretty tame, compared to what I expected

which probably is coloring my interpretation of the act

[whatthehey]

60. really? let's predict the massive drop in next week's audience numbers then...

anyone?

[Baitball Blogger]

64. From what I read on wiki...

...the tremendous unhappiness that Sansa goes through because of Ramsay's cruelty is the reason that the people of Winterfell revolt. In other words, this event will develop the next event, that would probably not occur otherwise. (I only read wiki, so I'm guessing that this is the reason that Jon Snow might leave the wall to come to Winterfell, which is unlikely to happen otherwise.)

And, the scene was heavily edited, thank goodness. We only see Sansa's spine as he rips the bodice from the back, and then lays her face down on the bed. We only "witness" the horror through Theon's eyes, and, can surmise what is happening to Sansa from her wimpering, which escalates. But the scene shuts down within seconds, so we know what happened without needing to see more.

Bolton was just told in the last episode how he was borne of rape. His father described it to him in detail, so I'm wondering why people didn't object to that one?

[djean111]

69. I quit watching many many series after watching the first episode. Mostly for blah-ness.

So - those who were okay with hanging burnt children, torture and castration, killing all of Robert's illegitimate children quite graphically - this was their sticking point? Fair enough, but I hope they were not expecting some sort of groundswell of agreement and/or the ratings to go down.

[workinclasszero]

75. Lucky for me I'm not paying an insane cable bill

to watch shows with graphic and horrific rape scenes in them.

Who the hell wants to see filth like that?

[Blue_Adept]

79. One persons filth is not anothers

Otherwise the majority of what I watch and read would be considered filth by quite a few others.

[mainstreetonce]

81. She consented to marry him

She knew it would be an ugly wedding night. I felt sorrow for the character,but it was an expected part of the storyline.

It was hard seeing Theon watch, but it showed he has real feelings.

Can't imagine why people who have seen everything so far would turn off because of this scene.

[Ilsa]

121. How did she know it would be an ugly wedding night?

She attributed the miller's daughter's comments to jealousy over Ramsay and her (Sansa's) position as lady of Winterfell. She had no other real proof of the depths of Ramsay's sadism.

I hope she calls on the people of Winterfell to help rid her of the pervert.

[Goblinmonger]

122. Was she the only person to not know about him skinning people?

What did she think happened to Theon?

[Ilsa]

125. How would she have known?

I see people in remote places with spotty communication. What is real and what is rumor?

And what choice did she have regarding RB? The marriage was arranged by powerful men. Does saying "No" offer protection or invite even worse violence? She probably believed marriage provided protection for a woman.

[geek tragedy]

128. House Bolton's sigil is a flayed man

Also, Ramsey's dad stabbed her brother in the heart

[Ilsa]

136. Okay, I must have missed some of the

Who-did-what. I saw the red wedding, but I don't remember knowing the name of the character who killed Robb Stark. The size of the cast has me thrown, occasionally.

[Goblinmonger]

129. I'm not saying it wasn't rape

and I'm not saying Ramsey isn't a horrible person.

But she had to know what type of person he was. She didn't just come there and get married an hour later. She knows what type of person his dad is. And she would have to be completely clueless to think marriage provided protection in this world.

Was it probably worse than she thought? Yeah. Was it as bad as it could have been? Well, the book was a lot worse.

And Little Finger said she could have said "No" and he would have taken her away.

[Ilsa]

137. Yes, he told her that. But Baelisch also needed

This union to secure Winterfell as a property to offer on the political chessboard. I wonder what Baelisch would have done if she had refused Bolton.

[HassleCat]

78. Why This?

Why are people particularly offended by rape, as opposed to other forms of violence? I don't watch the series, but it sounds like there have been scenes involving violence that should have turned off viewers long ago. I'm curious as to why rape is the final straw for some people.

[Arkana]

82. I try to remind myself when I see this stuff: "It's GRRM, that's how he writes."

They didn't make Sophie Turner do a nude scene, and it's not like there haven't been rape scenes written into the show and the book. Doesn't mean that fans of the show condone rape.

[OregonBlue]

85. It didn't happen in the book. It's gratuitous and therefore it's disgusting. I don't know why

Martin is allowing them to ruin his story for the sake of TV ratings. The books are grafic enough without adding extra rape scenes.

[Goblinmonger]

120. It just happened to a different character

And the TV show has enough characters for most people that watch this genre of show to keep straight without adding the million more that are in the books but not the TV show. Martin makes the classic Russian authors look like they couldn't come up with minor characters to add to a novel.

[OregonBlue]

126. I have read the books. Twice. It is gratuitous. Not necessary to the story.

[Goblinmonger]

130. Well, it is to a different character

so we don't know where they are going with so, so how do you know for sure it is gratuitous?

My guess is that this, and her subsequent treatment by Ramsey, will result in those still loyal to the Starks, Theon, and--perhaps most importantly--John Snow to take the North away/back from the Boltons. If that is the case, then it isn't gratuitous. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm guessing this is going to be the driving force for a lot of things.

[AngryAmish]

171. As a twice reader of the books, you should know Ramsay Bolton is a gentle lover.

[bluedigger]

95. I'll expect a big uptick in riveting Monday morning Masterpiece Theater water cooler conversations.

They really push the limits over there at PBS.

[Marrah_G]

100. no one is glorifying it

it was a terrible, horrible act by a terrible horrible character.... Honestly, worse has been done. It's not a feel good series.

[Feron]

106. I think it's just the straw that broke...

the camel's back.

The showrunners have inserted gratuitous female nudity and rape from the beginning. I think Sansa's rape was just the breaking point.

Personally I quit watching last season. I got tired of the constant female nudity and rape just about in every episode. Plus Joffrey was the only character worth hanging around for even if I do like Sansa.

Anyhow just because it or a variation of it is in the books, doesn't mean that it should be translated on screen.

[Gormy Cuss]

108. I tend to agree -- it's the cumulative disdain for the way the showrunners have made it

Anyone who knows the books expects violence including rape to be portrayed but the show seems to fill every gap in the violence with a sex scene or female nudity. That Ramsay Bolton would savagely rape a woman wasn't a surprise. The scene however felt like a clumsy device to show Theon's horror at the event.

[Sheldon Cooper]

111. Apparently, this makes you "incontinent".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6701238

[Ilsa]

123. For me, the story is bogged down.

Yes, there is a complicated political storm unfolding, but for me, it is moving extremely slowly with the disgustingly violent segments.

[LostOne4Ever]

112. I have only read the first two books of "A Song of Ice and Fire"

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]But it has always hit me as trying to be a fantasy that depicts midevil life in an ultra realistic way. Those were brutal times and horrible acts of violence were committed.

The rape scene was horrible...but I took that as the point. To show how horrific rape is and how women were treated back then.

If anything the show revels in how horrific things were back then. Children getting thrown down and spears driven through their throats, servants getting beheaded because of their masters, incest, pedophilia (Daenerys is only 13), raping of the villagers during war.

It makes it pretty clear that those were NOT fun times to live in.[/font]

[abelenkpe]

115. Not shocking if you've read the books

Seriously any scene with Ramsey....go ahead and leave the room. It's never going to be nice.

[Prism]

124. People missed the entire point of the scene/arc

You have two story threads here: Theon's redemption/reclamation of identity, and Sansa's new found agency.

The original Ramsey bridal night was kept because it was the trigger in the books that led to Reek becoming Theon again. It was the horror too far. That sticks pretty close to the books, so that brings us to . . .

Sansa's arc. I feel like the people who are outraged missed the scene preceding the wedding. Miranda threatens Sansa with Ramsey's cruelty. Miranda tells Sansa what she is in for. What is Sansa's response? "This is Winterfell. This is my home. You cannot scare me." Sansa knows she's in for a rough time, but she goes ahead willingly. She and Littlefinger discuss this in previous episodes. This is going to be horrible. These are terrible people. But will you do what it takes to avenge your family? Sansa says she is.

That doesn't make what happened any less horrible. Sansa is suffering. But she subjected herself to this man and this situation in the pursuit of a larger goal. Therein (I hope) lays her strength. She's enduring him now in order to bring him and his father down later.

The only way the writers will ruin this, IMO, is if they make Sansa a damsel in distress, looking to an outside force to rescue her. If she, instead, rallies the North Remembers brigade, turns Theon, and engineers the downfall of the Boltons, this all works.

If this results in Brienne or anyone else having to swoop in and rescue her, then I will join everyone else in being utterly pissed off and disgusted, and I will question the point of the rape as others are doing now.

[Blue_Adept]

131. Exactly

I wish there was a way to recommend individual posts in a thread.

[joshcryer]

145. Great analysis.

[Pooka Fey]

165. +1

Agreed.

[NewJeffCT]

173. At the point Myranda told her that

it's not exactly like Sansa can back out. She's surrounded by the Bolton family and a thousand or two of their allies at Winterfell. She has no allies, except for a possible old woman who says the North Remembers. If she says "no" to Ramsay, is he going to just say, "OK, Sansa, as you wish... we'll just pack up and leave Winterfell. Here are the keys."

If she says no, she's basically going to be (at best) thrown in a jail cell, or, (more likely) she'll be flayed inch by inch until she consents to marry Ramsay. There's a reason why the Flayed Man is the symbol of House Bolton.

My guess, though, is that while she is escaping with Theon (possibly with the help of Brienne and Pod), she'll take somebody out as she goes - maybe Myranda, maybe Ramsay, maybe Roose? Maybe she'll bake them a special pie before she leaves?

The 100% evil characters in the series so far - Viserys and Joffrey - have died particularly gruesomely and pathetically. So, I'm hopeful Ramsay will as well. (Walder Frey is another, I hope)

[Doctor_J]

188. violence, including rape, can be depicted on the screen without all of the horrid details

the stories would have been effected had the graphic violence been toned down.

That said, I don't really like or even "get" porn, especially violent/rape porn, so the whole thing escapes me.

[hughee99]

127. Given what's already happened on the show (and the books are much worse),

I'm surprised any Feminist site is still covering the show.

People who are offended and don't want to watch, shouldn't watch. I completely agree on that.

As far as determining what is a "necessary story-driving device" is, though, I'm not sure that being editor-in-chief of The Mary Sure necessarily qualifies one as an expert on that.

[Eleanors38]

132. ooooo, but it's Edgy™®. I would have preferred a streaking farter.

[Township75]

133. All 6 viewers that are quitting will be dwarved by the 100s that now show up

Most people won't know and won't care about some made up tv show.

[Jamastiene]

135. To each their own.

Each person will have to decide how much violence is too much violence for them.

I do want to know why Dany's (and several other female characters) rape didn't seem to upset them as much. How was Sansa's rape any worse than Dany's (and several other female characters)? I thought what Dany went through was atrocious too.

[lovuian]

139. Zero thirty showed torture on the screen and got a thumbs down

and rape and torture is not my kind of idea of entertainment

[La Lioness Priyanka]

140. this is literally the stupidest reason to quit GOT. first of all this rape

was so much less gross than the original story line. secondly, it was fiction. third, it clearly portrayed the rapist as a psychotic monster (so no ambiguity about victim blaming).

[Jamastiene]

155. Plus, they are acting like it is the first rape on the show.

I still wonder why all the other rapes did not bother them so much. Why this particular rape?

[NewJeffCT]

174. As somebody that's read the series 3 times

the change to the Daenerys/Drogo wedding night bothered me more - while it was an arranged marriage and Dany had no real say in the matter, book Drogo was surprisingly gentle that first night with her. Show Drogo was not.

[Jamastiene]

177. I feel the same way about that story line, especially.

I was surprised there was no outrage then, to be honest. The Daenerys/Drogo story in the books was very different. They didn't need to make it a violent wedding night like they did in the show.

[Yavin4]

142. Why are depictions of violence against men tolerated?

The men on the show have been headed, castrated, throats slashed, stabbed, poisoned, gutted, skinned alive, maimed, burned, and eaten by dragons.

Not one word of protest.

[Travis_0004]

146. How are people quitting the show before the next episode airs.

When ratings come out for next weeks show, maybe then we can speculate

[RebelOne]

147. I have never watched this show and now I know

after reading all these comments, I never will.

[840high]

176. Same here. No interest in it for me.

[dilby]

156. As a man I was sickened and appalled by that final scene.

Furthermore I was angry because of the absolute humiliating way that it took place. But I will say the scene had the exact effect it should, rape is horrible and I am sure every person who saw that episode gave thought to the disgustingness of the act. It also opened up a dialogue and got people to talk about rape. This was all done just by showing a fictional rape taking place on a fictional character in a fictional world.

[SoCalDem]

159. It's normal for viewers to drop off

especially in shows where favorite characters are routinely killed/maimed etc.

[joshcryer]

161. There is not going to be a drop off in views.

[cemaphonic]

185. You would think, but this show has been brutalizing its characters

and picking up more viewers since the beginning.

[sendero]

163. The vapors I tell ya...

.. please, these people should crawl back into their cocoons. It is a drama. It is an edgy drama. If it is not to your taste by all means don't watch it but don't imagine for a second you are making a political statement. No one cares.

[romanic]

166. I'm going to assume

that these sensitive little snow-flakes have never read the books or forgot all of the other violent scenes and heaping amount of female nudity to conclude that GOT is an evil presence promoting rape culture. :I

Well all I got to say to those viewers leaving is this:
[IMG][/IMG]

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

170. I'll bet these viewers who are quitting GoT are the same viewers ...

... who quit watching after the red wedding.

And they'll quit again after the next over-the-top outrage.

[WinkyDink]

172. Isn't watching "GoT" superior to watching "American Idol"? Aren't its viewers more sophisticated?

I don't see the mockery for this show, so I have to conclude that knowing about "Sansa Stark" is vastly more cultured than knowing who Kelly Clarkson is.

Am I right, or am I right?

#trenchantsarcasm

[Gothmog]

178. I intend to still watch

Hopefully, the rapist will be get his due

[Pisces]

179. No, they are not. Rape is a weapon this has been used against humanity since time began.

Who comes here to stir up outrage? It is a medieval, fantasy show. This guy raped a man and tortured him to become a
a slave with no identity and nobody quit after that heinous display. This is how sick and depraved a human can become.

[Orrex]

180. Yeah, and I'll bet that lots of viewers quit Titus Andronicus after the Lavinia scene.

[Generic Brad]

181. And the line was not crossed earlier?

Perhaps viewers have become over saturated with this show. You can only see so many disgusting, unthinkable things before you finally hit the wall.

[NaturalHigh]

182. I'm curious.

What makes you think that "Viewers Are Quitting 'Game Of Thrones'?" I've never watched it, but not a day goes by without someone talking about it. I have never even heard of the scene that you mentioned.

Also, I'm curious (once again) how a thread about a television show that will never affect anyone's real life can turn into such an all-out brawl at times.

[AnnieBW]

183. We'll see...

If the ratings for tonight's episode are down significantly or not. Remember, it is a holiday weekend.

[AtomicKitten]

187. The interweb has turned people into children.

It's fiction FFS.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

190. Despite trying a half dozen times I could never get into this show

and I'm a big fan of fantasy, sword and sandal films, and most things by George R.R. Martin (loved his short stories The Monkey Treatment and The Sand Kings- so original). After watching GOT a few minutes I find my mind wandering and just not caring about the characters or their extremely complicated situations. But I don't think I would ever abandon a series I like over just one scene.

[B Calm]

192. My biggest complaint with Game of Thrones is the lighting. Most scenes are so dark

you have to strain your eyes just to get a glimpse of what's going on!