Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" (yes, smiling gleefully)

[Bonobo]

Given the bloodshed I have seen the US participate in in my 50 years of life, no, I can't do it.

I cannot vote for someone who I think likely to continue on this path.

I want to see a difference made in my lifetime.

Every candidate I ever supported was the one I thought most likely to break that mold. What mold? The ball-busting, America-police, domineering, dominating, rah-rah-cowboy, arrogant, fuck-you-we're America mold.

I see this and I cringe. Because I know. I KNOW what it means. And whether Hillary is actually THIS or simply thinks she NEEDS to be this does not matter.

The older I grow, the more I learn that life shows you hints, signs of what is to come. And the older I grown, the better I get at reading those signs. Maybe that is the beginning of wisdom.

Whatever it is, I see this video and I know it is a sign. That smile, that glee, it cannot be disguised.

What the fuck is the cause of such happiness? Is it pride? Amusement? Whatever it is, I will have no part of that emotion. I have seen it before.

[MADem]

1. Well, fine, don't. nt

[BlueMTexpat]

7. + a million or so. eom

[NYC_SKP]

340. Such a demeanor, a "teh hee" laugh and smile like that is suggestive of a certain character fault.

.

It is evidence of an almost pathological lack of empathy and carelessness.

Anyone not disturbed by it should take a moment and think it over, think about all the carnage that surrounded the various acts perpetrated by our government under her watch.

It's really just sick, to me.

[MADem]

425. If you think that, vote for someone else. Try talking up your candidate instead of talking down

others.

You know, when your default mode is "Diss and Trash," it suggests you aren't "for" much of anything.

That's "really just sick, to me." To quote you.

[NYC_SKP]

435. Will do. Here is NYC_SKP talking his candidate UP without tearing down anyone:

Our independent voice for seniors, workers, children, LGBT, minorities, everyone.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/3193944696/1431732301/1500x500

Bernie Sanders on the issues:

Voted YES on reauthorizing the Violence Against Women Act. (Feb 2013)
Voted NO on Constitutionally defining marriage as one-man-one-woman. (Jul 2006)
Voted NO on making the PATRIOT Act permanent. (Dec 2005)
Voted NO on Constitutional Amendment banning same-sex marriage. (Sep 2004)
Voted NO on protecting the Pledge of Allegiance. (Sep 2004)
Voted NO on constitutional amendment prohibiting flag desecration. (Jun 2003)
Voted NO on banning gay adoptions in DC. (Jul 1999)
Voted NO on ending preferential treatment by race in college admissions. (May 1998)

Rated 100% by NARAL, indicating a pro-choice voting record:
Rated 100% by the HRC, indicating a pro-gay-rights stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 97% by the NAACP, indicating a pro-affirmative-action stance. (Dec 2006)
Rated 93% by the ACLU, indicating a pro-civil rights voting record. (Dec 2002)
Recognize Juneteenth as historical end of slavery. (Jun 2008)

ENDA: prohibit employment discrimination for gays. (Jun 2009)
Prohibit sexual-identity discrimination at schools. (Mar 2011)
Endorsed as "preferred" by The Feminist Majority indicating pro-women's rights. (Aug 2012)
Enforce against wage discrimination based on gender. (Jan 2013)
Enforce against anti-gay discrimination in public schools. (Jun 2013)
Re-introduce the Equal Rights Amendment. (Mar 2007)
Constitutional Amendment for equal rights by gender. (Mar 2001)

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/bernie_sanders.htm#Civil_Rights

[reddread]

21. best advice ever.

[sabrina 1]

228. Have you seen what has happened to that country, to its people, who we supposedlyh

went in to 'protect', or do we just forget the millions of victims we create once we get what we really went there for?

If it doesn't bother you that that country is now destroyed, its people brutalized, tortured, murdered, driven to risk death on the ocean, and they have, rather than stay in the hellhole created by NATO, then, well fine, but nexxt time we are tol we are going on a 'humanitarian mission' don't even try to defend it as such.

Let's at least be honest. We don't go on humanitarian missions. We knew that when Bush tried to tell that lie regarding Iraq.

I'm with Mandela and Tutu on the war crime that was the brutal slaughter of Gadaffi. 'It should shock decent people everywhere'. It did.

[MADem]

433. If you think this method of sales you push is winning me over, think again.

I don't think Senator Sanders would approve of much of the crap some of his "supporters" (cough) do in his name, here.

I am not at all bothered by the twisted propaganda I see posted here. Try convincing someone else with your "Waaah, she sucks" routine. I like her. I also like Senator Sanders, and I don't feel a need to trash him while I say I prefer Clinton over him.

Let's be honest, indeed. You know you aren't helping Sanders--you just like a good old DU fight. Sorry, I'm not into that nonsense.

If you want something to chew on, have a read of this opinion piece:

http://www.blackagendareport.com/bernie-sanders-sheepdog-4-hillary

I like the term "sheepdog"--it sounds friendlier than "stalking horse."

[sabrina 1]

438. No one should need to be 'won over' against the brutal Foreign Policies of this country we so

opposed under Bush. I speak for me, not any political candidate.

If you're not already opposed to such policies after nearly a decade and a half of seeing the dreadful human toll they have taken, not to mention the total failure, far be it from to try to 'win you over'.

Libya today is now in the process of becoming another Somalia or worse if that's possible.

If you are supportive of those who contributed to this latest example of failed neocon policies, that is your right.

It is mine to oppose them every way I can as I did under Bush. Because it wasn't just political for me.

[MADem]

441. Here--have a cute animal.

I'm just not buying your pique. It seems forced to me, somehow.

[bvar22]

472. ..but it DOES appear you have bought the twisted propaganda...

...that prepped the USA for killing more Muslims in Africa and destroying the most progressive country in North Africa with the highest standard of living and privileges for Women,
and Freedom Bombed it back to Radical Fundamentalist Islam that has already imposed Sharia Law.


Same Shit
Different Bag.
They are evil dictators who kill their own people !
[font size=5]
If you're not FOR the WAR in[/font]
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
Syria
[font size=5]The UKraine


you're WITH [/font]
The Communists
AlQaeda
The Terrorists
Saddam
Qaddafi
Assad
[font size=5]PUTIN!!!![/font]

Terror! Terror! Terror!
Evil Dictators! Booga...Booga
Terror Drones and Freedom Bombs for Peace!!!
USA....USA...USA

They are killing their own innocent people.
Don't they know that is OUR job?

[MADem]

504. I think you need a cute animal.

You seem a bit over-wrought.

[840high]

569. So- no real answer eh?

[MADem]

594. Awww....a "helper!" A cute animal for you, too!

[bvar22]

642. We have plenty of cute animals, we don't need yours.

Please give them to a less privileged family.


We live in the woods surrounded by National Forest and Wilderness.
We certainly don't need your suburban "creations".

We prefer our animals in their natural state without foam appliances some believe make their pets "look cute". As far as we are concerned, NOTHING is cuter that an animal in its natural state. I can't understand why some people put funny customs or hats on their animals, or people who think that is "cute".
Whenever I see that, I want to go rescue that animal from its torture and mortification.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=268x5178



http://www.democraticunderground.com/1182456


So, No. We don't need or want anything from you.
and we hope you find whatever it is you are looking for.
We did.

[polly7]

647. So gorgeous.

My Dad used to bring home little fawns he found orphaned when their moms were hit by vehicles. We bottle fed them milk from our big old Holstein milk cow - she always had enough milk for three calves (loved her). The fawns were so much fun, and never strayed from the yard - they'd follow us everywhere, sleep with us in the shade, played, jumping and chasing us. We took them to a refuge when they were older and crossed our fingers they'd be ok.

Your photos are beautiful!

[MADem]

663. OK fine--keep your deer, and his little friends, too!

Try to be happy!

[polly7]

666. Sad. nt.

[bvar22]

677. Yes.

Very sad.
A meltdown really.

[Jesus Malverde]

573. Nailed it

JM

[dlwickham]

643. very well put

[eridani]

2. And then Libya became a shithole full of squabbling warlords

Some "pro-woman" position. In the war of each against all, women always, always lose.

[reddread]

10. The horror. I think this is the real story, her true legacy

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/04/report-hundreds-feared-dead-boat-capsizes-libya-150419074946551.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/un-says-between-800-and-850-migrants-died-in-boat-capsizing-off-libya/2015/04/21/a8383770-e803-11e4-9767-6276fc9b0ada_story.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/571455/700-feared-dead-as-boat-carrying-refugees-from-Libya-to-Italy-capsizes

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/world/europe/european-union-immigration-migrant-ship-capsizes.html?_r=0

[sabrina 1]

385. For the people of that African nation, whose country had the highest living standards

of most others on the Continent, NATO's invasion has turned their once decent country into a hell hole.

'Humanitarian bombs' generally only benefit the war profiteers and Global Oil Cartels.

They lies they told 'we have to rescue the Libyan people'. Some of us knew they were lying, as we did re Iraq.

I don't see many of the cheerleaders for this criminal venture here anymore.

And the people have not just been deserted to the brutal gangs of war lords and other terror groups, when they try to escape NATO's Libya, those very countries who claimed to care about them, have left them to die at sea before it became such a huge humanitarian crisis they had to put up some kind of show by rescuing them.

Same thing in Iraq, people forget how many millions of Iraqis fled our invasion in that country also.

Four million refugees were taken in by Jordan and Syria and the US did little to help those countries.

Then we made it worse for the Iraqis in Syria who found themselves under attack again as we 'supported the rebels'.

Our racist Foreign policies are CRIMINAL.

Those who oppose them are right. Anyone who still supports them after witnessing the slaughter in the ME is either benefiting from them in some way, or is willfully blind.

[reddread]

455. the strongest support seems to come from the investor class

Im afraid that is no coincidence.

[polly7]

457. Right on Sabrina. nt.

[Wilms]

4. I've read the quote. I did not know she laughed.

First time I'm seeing this. I didn't want to click.

[Bonobo]

5. I'm glad I'm not the only one viscerally disturbed by this. nt

[randys1]

28. Does the idea of Women dead in back alleys disturb you? Becuase i can assure you if a con

takes the WH we will see that, among many other problems that will not happen if ANY Dem is elected.

You see the way this works is you vote for the one who does the least harm while you try and fix the system, anything else is, well, insane.

[arcane1]

381. False premise. Hillary isn't our only choice. It's not a choice between her or a republican

And it's pretty shameful to use botched abortions to misleadingly extort a vote for her.

[cui bono]

597. We're not in the general election yet. That is not an issue in the primary.

Weak argument on that regard and sick argument to use fearmongering and emotional wedge issues to try to gain votes for one specific candidate, which as mentioned already, is not the only choice we have.

Or do you really believe Hillary is the only Dem who is pro-choice?

[TheKentuckian]

649. Surrender to the death machine and the nation's entire tax receipts for nothing or

the women get it, huh?

Nice, stay classy.

[davidpdx]

688. A very ugly argument, but not surprise coming from someone who supports who they do

Vote for Clinton or women will die of back alley abortions. A false narrative for sure.

[foo_bar]

58. is that what passes for laughter?

I think someone to her left is holding a sign with those words, and Hillary's mainly cringing at her own speech act. Unless they printed stage directions like *nervous but not quite maniacal laughter*

[MaggieD]

135. She got caught on camera saying what....

99% of people think. She is glad Gaddafi is dead. Boo hoo.

[cherokeeprogressive]

199. "We came, we saw, he died and now the place is a fucking mess. Boy did we fuck up or what?"

[MaggieD]

203. It was a fucking mess before too

The difference is their is one less muderous bastard on the planet. You can mourn his death. I decline, as do most people.

[cherokeeprogressive]

204. I don't mourn his death for a fucking second. Did it make the world a better place?

The ONLY answer is not only no, but FUCK NO and don't try to claim otherwise, lest you look like an idiot doing nothing more than professing blind love for a politician.

[MaggieD]

211. You just want Hillary to mourn his death?

She doesn't. Bummer, huh?

It's refreshing to see us NOT propping up brutal dictators. And to support his demise without going to war? Fucking brilliant.

[truebrit71]

444. Yup. Destroying yet another foreign country is fucking brilliant.

[MissDeeds]

464. That's happening far too often

Destroy a country and its people to get rid of a tyrannical leader. This should not be the American way.

[Caretha]

554. What's really swarmy

is when he was "our" brutal dictator first, until....well he wasn't so useful anymore.

[cui bono]

598. And refreshing.

[eridani]

503. I want her to mourn the women she condemned to rape and slaughter

Libya is now a shithole full of squabbling warlords, and in the war of each against all, women always lose.

[Bohemianwriter]

467. So do you praise..

the political instability that followed?

Thanks to policies you support, the Mediterranean is filled with refugees. Many of the have drowned. Gotta be proud of having the moral gutterball to determine other countries and people's fate by bombing them and not give a shit about the consequences afterwards.

I thought only RW lunatics and republicans had your kind of mindset.

The only exceptional about Murican "exceptionalism" is the reeking stench.

[MaggieD]

476. What do you mean "that followed"

It was politically instable before his death. Thats what caused his death.

[polly7]

478. Bullshit. nt.

[MaggieD]

500. Are you seriously contending....

Liyba wasn't unstable before his death? You really can't be serious. It was the rioting mobs that killed him. Do you think NATO intervened for no reason???

Good lord. I can't even believe the degree of denial here. Mind blown.

[polly7]

502. Yes, I seriously am!

Just a bit of history on Libya pre-destruction from a poster HERE.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6718447

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6718692

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6718704

When were you last in Libya????

People had housing, health-care, jobs and lived peaceful lives. Hundreds of thousands of migrants from Africa were given sanctuary and work. Libya hasn't invaded anyone, threatened to or done anything but use its own resources for Libyan people, to help African countries, and not be indebted to the brutal IMF and World Bank and their blood-sucking policies.



Now go fix your 'blown' mind.

[MaggieD]

505. That's just not factual

Regardless of how many times you say it. Sorry. It just isn't.

And I'm still glad he's dead. I think the vast majority of people are.

[polly7]

508. Lmfao. nt.

[MaggieD]

512. It's not actually funny

History seldom is.

ETA: here are some facts for you. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_crisis_(2011–present)

[R B Garr]

215. Yes, and look at the link to Fox News, for crying out loud

Fox News is now being trotted out as a credible source of humanitarianism. Like they give a crap about humanity except to play some "gotcha" politics. This is really getting ridiculous.

[MaggieD]

219. That's how the extreme left rolls here

Strange bedfellows. That's for sure.

[truebrit71]

443. Pretty sure you're on the wrong site....

Plenty of people criticize disastrous foreign policy from the dead centre of the party....

[cui bono]

599. Odd comment coming from the person who defends Obama pushing the TPP alongside

all the Cons and against the wishes of the majority of his party.

[MaggieD]

602. I just don't think he has nefarious motives

I think he's wrong. I just don't think he's nefarious.

If I had to guess I would say that he's having another huge case of naivtivity. Just like he did when he was convinced republicans would compromise with him. Like this trade pact s going to be different. Different I say! That's just naive, IMO.

That was honestly my biggest concern about him in 2008. I voted for him, but it was a concern.

[cui bono]

606. Doesn't change the hypocrisy of your statement about "strange bedfellows".

And I do think he's nefarious at this point. I don't see any other excuse. He's not a stupid man.

[MaggieD]

608. You lost me on that one....

You believe Obama shares the goals of republicans on TPP. I don't. Not even close. So they aren't bed fellows.

On the other hand, it does seem clear to me that the right and the extreme left share the goal of smearing the Democratic front runner and taking her down. They ARE clearly in league together on this mission. At least the extreme left here at DU. So I think strange bedfellows is an apt description.

[cui bono]

619. So now you are redefining bedfellows?

Sheesh.

Obama is in bed with the Cons on trying to pass the TPP. Period.

[MaggieD]

620. Like I said - I don't think

.... they share the same goals. You may disagree with me. That's fine. But it doesn't make MY statement hypocritical.

[cui bono]

622. Yes it does make you a hypocrite. And you trying to redefine 'bedfellows' or adding a qualification

doesn't change that.

Obama is in bed with the Cons since they are both wanting to pass the TPP. They are bedfellows. Period.


You also are accusing the left with having the same motives of Faux news with your qualification. So either way what you are saying is bullshit.

[davidpdx]

691. She is claiming we are paid trolls

She herself said that we are collaborating with the right. It goes to show the extreme hubris and stupidity of some on DU.

[davidpdx]

690. Oh shit, you caught us

Goddamn it, I guess I'm not going to be able to cash that big check from the Koch brothers. Yes, all of us that don't support Hillary are just a bunch a trolls.

God get a fucking grip.

[davidpdx]

689. Maybe you'd be better off over on Free Republic

We'll send word that you are on your way over.

[cali]

269. It's kind of irrelevant that it's Fox News. President Obama has been on Fox

so has Clinton and Sanders. It's HRC on video. Having said that, I'd like to say that my original perception of that video has been altered by learning that she was just finding out that Gaddafi had been killed. I cut her slack due to that. How we react in the instant that we learn momentous news may not be truly reflective. And I don't think placing all the onus of the failure that is Libya on HRC is fair or accurate. That said, the totality of her record and rhetoric on military intervention, is not something I support. But yeah, upon further reflection, this is gotcha stuff.

[R B Garr]

331. Fox News is well-known for selective editing to fit their hit piece

of the day, so it's not entirely irrelevant that it is Fox News, among other reasons, but I see you've now taken that into consideration with respect to the timing of the news.

[Kingofalldems]

364. So take it down.

[NYC_SKP]

375. Such a demeanor, a "ha ha ha" laugh and smile like that is suggestive of a certain character fault.

We don't laugh when a horrible person is put to death, it's just a horrible thing to do.

And it's shameful of people to defend it. You go right ahead and associate yourself with her. The rest of us are busy being sick to our stomachs.

GlobalPost: Qaddafi apparently sodomized after capture

A frame by frame analysis of this exclusive GlobalPost video clearly shows the rebel trying to insert some kind of stick or knife into Gaddafi's rear end.

GlobalPost correspondent Tracey Shelton said there is some question as to whether the instrument was a knife from the end of a gun, which Libyans call a Bicketti, or a utilitiy tool known as a Becker Knife and Tool, which is popularly known as a BKT.

This latest video discovery comes as international and human rights groups call for a formal investigation into how the former Libyan leader was killed. In video clips that have emerged of his capture, Gaddafi can be seen injured but alive. Later he is seen with what appears to be gunshot wounds to his head and chest. According to the Geneva Conventions, however, abuse of prisoners under any circumstance is not permissable.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/globalpost-qaddafi-apparently-sodomized-after-capture/

[KMOD]

382. so she lost your vote.

Oh that's right, she didn't have it anyway.

[MaggieD]

424. Well if you gotta prop up...

... A murderous dictator to smear HRC she must be doing something right.

[Marr]

392. Speak for yourself.

I found that comment sickening, and indicative of a pseudo-aristocrat.

[MaggieD]

431. Maybe PPP will do a poll for you

And we'll find out if he was beloved by anyone outside the extreme left who sees it as an opportunity to smear her.

You know what I DON'T believe? That any of you would have the guts to prop him up in front if the families of those he helped rape and murder. And if you wouldn't do that you shouldn't do it here.

[karynnj]

399. I doubt it was 99% who wanted him dead -- and of the % that did, I assume the majority

would have been disturbed by the extreme violence which with he died. I don't know how close to the time of death that her comment was made or what she knew at that point.

Personally, I don't think that is the type of response I would want the top US diplomat to make - and I would say the same no matter who the Secretary was. There should be respect for both life and for due process. This showed neither. Both the laugh and the pseudo intellectual paraphrase of Julius Caesar are ugly.

There have been good things HRC has said and done, but this is not among them. I suspect that had GWB or Cheney said this, you would not be defending it.

[840high]

572. Stop defending this.

[Kingofalldems]

247. Another link to our enemy, Fox News. And a personal attack added on.

As I posted yesterday, you should just livestream Fox to DU and title it 'Bad Things About Hillary.'

Too freaking much.

[truebrit71]

448. So this clip is made up?

I'm confused... did she, or did she not say what the op days she did, in the manner described?

[Kingofalldems]

481. Do I have to explain Fox news to you?

And how they edit their hit pieces?

[truebrit71]

488. So you're saying it was the editing, and she didn't actually say those words?

???

[Kingofalldems]

491. It's been taken down.

That says all you need to know.

[cui bono]

601. It was replaced by a CBS video where she says the same thing with the laugh.

That says all you need to know.

I like how you have such disdain for Faux due to their dishonesty but you post that bullshit statement. Or did you just not bother to fact check? That sounds a lot like Faux News too. Either way that is quite a load of hypocrisy you got going on there.

[R B Garr]

618. No, the Fox News version had Fox News editorializing complete with shock...

...shock, I tell ya'...that the U.S. would even be considering some type of military strategy in relation to Libya. I could only listen to Chris Wallace for a brief few moments before clicking out. Maybe you're a Fox News fan so you like your news with the Republican talking points feathered in for your convenience.

So, YES, Fox News does indeed tell you all you need to know.

[cui bono]

621. Okay, sorry, I didn't see the Faux one. But the CBS one shows her saying the same thing and laughing

so where is the editing that made her do that?

Editorializing about something is not the same thing as editing something to create a false illusion of what someone said. So the point still stands that she said that and she laughed afterwards.

[rhett o rick]

610. So you have no rebuttal but to attack Fox News? Do you deny the story?

Or just trying to distract.

[Agschmid]

615. What story?

Interpret the laugh, please.

[rhett o rick]

631. Is the tactic to attack the source and ignore the issue? nm

[Agschmid]

632. How am I attacking the source?

[R B Garr]

633. What issue? There is no issue.

Interpreting a laugh or body gesture or eye movement are hardly issues. They are pastimes.

[Kingofalldems]

640. I'm not trying to distract a damn thing.

And yes I will attack Fox news when it is used to go after a loyal Democrat.

Don't like it? Too freaking bad.

[AtomicKitten]

8. I can't vote for her on foreign policy alone.

Her hubris is appalling.

[cali]

9. It really is. Her display of arrogance, callousness and implied nationalistic entitlement

in that video are truly disturbing and ugly.

[Fuddnik]

11. Lets not forget her role in the Honduras coup either.

[Agschmid]

26. Usually when broad statements are made its good to have links...

That way others know what you are talking about, otherwise the message doesn't get through.

[cali]

48. Agreed. Here. It's really about her role in the aftermath of that coup

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2014/09/30/hard-choices-hillary-clinton-admits-role-honduran-coup-aftermath

[Wilms]

85. Here's a 'toon about it.

[840high]

575. It just added to my list

of things I don't like about her.

[m-lekktor]

20. I really do NOT like her at all.

she might as well be a republican when it comes to foreign policy.

[aquart]

31. Which came first I don't wonder at all.

[randys1]

32. Probably true, but thank GOD eh she couldn't be MORE different on social issues

Like night and fucking day

Like the difference between life and death, actually

[cui bono]

600. But not good on economic issues and really, when one appoints 'Monsanto' to a position on

their campaign, how much positivity are they really adding to the 'life and death' meme that's going around these days?

Now Sanders is great on all fronts. He is actually the one fighting the hardest for ALL life and death issues. So if that's what you use to determine who to vote for, he's your man.

[aquart]

27. You show me a humble presidential candidate and I'll show you a liar.

Please don't try to tell me Bernie Sanders is humble. I just happen to agree with the particular shit he's full of, but humble he ain't.

This is a job for the strong stomached. Better than all the rest, Hillary knows what she's getting into.

If I hadn't spent years donning hazmat gear to enter the primary forums, I'd be horrified by the certified Rovian crap I'm reading here.

Bleh. Pretending that millions of us won't die in the advancing climate/political crisis is too fluffy for me. I want a leader who understands how bad our options will become.

[Jackpine Radical]

165. The common wisdom, of course, is that

it is political death for any politician to try to shove Americans' faces into unpleasant reality. Walter Mondale tried that in '84. And, as a result of that one bad experience, nobody has dared to lift the veil too far since then.

I'm reminded of the famous cat who, having once experienced a hot stove, will never sit on another one. Neither will it sit on a cold stove.

[Hekate]

372. "Certified Rovian crap" is all too true. WTF DU?

[davidpdx]

693. So I take it you are subscribing to the same conspiracy theory as MaggieD?

About all of us being a bunch of right-wing trolls. Good to know that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

202. At times like this I consider myself lucky to live in California. I don't HAVE to vote for her. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

466. me neither

Nor could I . Other progressives have some soul searching to do. I don't envy that task.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

525. I'm unlucky in NC. My vote really matters.

Obama barely carried this state in 2008, and lost in 2012. Ugh.

[TheNutcracker]

374. +1000 That's why I support Senator Sanders

[davidpdx]

692. So is that of her "followers"

I just want to know did you get your check AtomicKitten? I can't seem to find mine. Apparently we are just a bunch of paid trolls.

[aquart]

696. No question, an ambitious woman is an ugly thing.

Best avert your eyes.

[TM99]

12. I will not vote for her if she is the Dem nominee.

That kind of bullshit machismo rhetoric was not acceptable when GW Bush spewed it, and why in god's name it is acceptable to Dems now is beyond me.

We are about the same age, and I agree. I know the signs. I have seen it before. I will not tolerate it again.

[Bonobo]

45. +1

Brave of you to admit that here.

I understand. A vote is an expression of your conscience, of who you are. Your only real manifestable power in the system. I will not sell it so cheap.

[TM99]

605. Honest, yes, but brave?

I don't know if I would go that far.

I am hardly a single issue voter, but this type of personality and response to despicable violence shows me someone who should not be entrusted with power.

I have seen to much to act otherwise. I owe no allegiance to any party.

[brooklynite]

81. Unless you live in a solid Red of Blue State, you're saying there's no difference...

...between Hillary Clinton and anyone the Republicans put up.

Your decision.

[TM99]

96. The only difference is her late to the party

social liberalism.

Otherwise, there is not much a difference between the GOP and neo-liberalism and she clearly embraces the neo-conservative foreign policy position.

http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/7-things-people-who-say-theyre-fiscally-conservative-socially-liberal-dont?akid=13127.319429.Klaw85&rd=1&src=newsletter1036718&t=1

And yes, it is my decision. I did not say I would vote Republican, but I will not vote for Clinton if she is the Dem choice.

[brooklynite]

100. Clinton voted against the Bush tax cuts in 2001...

...late to the party?

[TM99]

105. Whoop de fucking do!

For every little example you give of her 'liberal & progressive cred' I can give an equally damning example of her not being so.

I won't play that game with you.

[MaggieD]

108. She's only late in your mind

As we've discussed previously. Seems to me you just buy into the nonsense the fringes on both sides sell you. But that is not backed up by her record.

[TM99]

487. You continue to have a problem with facts.

History shows exactly what she said and did on what dates, and they contradict YOUR narrative.

[MaggieD]

498. How so?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

106. I wouldn't beg anybody to vote for anybody...

People are gonna do what people are gonna do.

[840high]

577. +100

[Enthusiast]

13. Who is she trying to appeal to? The Neo-Cons?

Maybe she's just being genuine.

[zentrum]

17. She...

…is a Neocon. This is the real Hill.

[lbrtbell]

14. The video on YouTube won't play

I guess it's as disgusted as we are....

[Ford_Prefect]

15. I have thought for some time that she could still self-destruct as a candidate.

This now seems even more evident and more possible. I do not look forward to that point. I worry that it could open the door for worse from the other side.

[2banon]

131. The problem with Hillary Supporters prematurely lauding her worthiness as THE candidate at THIS time

to represent, to support, to back as the party nominee, and the ultimate goal of POTUS:

Is because ultimately the moment of her own self destructing demise will come eventually, and most likely at a time when it will be too late to usher in a candidate who is more worthy and deserving to support.

The blinders on her supporters remind me of the blinders of Bush supporters. It's very very troubling.

I was an Edwards supporter during the "2008" primary campaign.. (I actually loved Kucinich, but...) loved it when Elizabeth Edwards would post on DU.. and I just had nothing but admiration for the both of them.

Then it happened, and Edwards self destructed in front of the world in a flash it was over. but it was still early enough in the primaries to make a personal decision between Hillary or Obama.

I'm not saying that it is certain she will, but it pretty much looks like it's happening right now.. and I just wish that people would wake up in time to see it before it's too late. She's not the candidate who will occupy the White House in 2016. It's not going to happen.

The party leaders need to see this and back up someone who actually represents the party and is not about to self destruct during the campaign.

[tblue37]

333. Yep. I also preferred Edwards' "two Americas" schtick to Obama's play-it-safe "fiscally responsible"

centrism, but when Edwards crashed and burned I was overwhelmingly relieved that he wasn't our candidate after all.

The optics problem with Hillary, I think, is that she lacks Bill's smoothness when "onstage," so she tries too hard to be the backslapping good ole girl, and she just isn't good at it. Apparently she is compassionate, charming, and funny around people she is familiar with, which is why she inspires such loyalty**, but she is awkward and evidently trying to hard when on camera.

The policy and principle problem with her is that the Clintons' triangulation strategy simply doesn't wash any longer with voters. They want candidates who stand on principle, and they even reward those who stand on destructive, disastrous principle (i.e., the entire Teapublican slate).

The Democratic Party as a whole is too easily stampeded--to the right.
______________________

**For example, after leaving the Clinton administration, George Stephanopoulos once told an interviwer that he would walk on coals for Hiillary[/].

[TexasBushwhacker]

635. I liked Edwards too!

I thought his focus on ending poverty would have made a huge improvement for America as a whole. Too bad he cheated on Elizabeth and lied about it.

[2banon]

646. indeed. it was really too bad and tragic.

He's kept a really low profile these past several years as far as I can tell., I kind of wonder what he's been up to these days.

[TexasBushwhacker]

648. He's returned to practicing law

with partner David Kirby in NC. His daughter runs their satellite office in DC. He has a relationship with his young daughter Quinn, but not with Riele Hunter (real name Lisa Jo Druck).

[2banon]

676. looks like a self-destructing high drama meltdown..

it's both pathetic and tragic. Looking back, I know I was feeling desperate for a candidate to voice the message he had during his campaign pre-scandal. Feeling very pessimistic.. definitely not looking forward to more phony-bs campaign rhetoric in the next year and half.

[2banon]

645. I agree with your view as regards "onstage" performance challenges. The last couple of vids

showing her in interviews with Fox and I think another outlet, is her expression. Anyone can see she has nothing but contempt for the media for good reason, (who doesn't?) but her demeanor shows it in a very palpable and unfortunate way. That's a factor that can't be ignored.

The media has their marching orders as to who they're going to show favor to, and that truly sucks, but no point in making it easier for them, which she repeatedly does! Like you said, She just isn't good at this. Never thought I'd be sympathetic to the media's pov as regards demeanor and showmanship in tv interviews, but that's a necessary evil here. She should embrace it (and get seriously coached!) now that she's made it "official".

[Scuba]

16. That is disturbing, as is her non-answer in the video posted further down the thread.

[Bonobo]

39. Her haughtiness is offensive, her callousness is disturbing.

Or maybe both are disturbing in equal measure, not sure.

But I have seen it before and will not have it in someone I vote for.

[woo me with science]

18. K&R

[KingCharlemagne]

19. That laugh at the end. Wow. No wonder she pals

around with this guy:

[Agschmid]

29. This is a foolish meme.

A picture of two people together implies nothing. And before I get attacked I'm a Bernie supporter, but I'm not going to do it by tearing down someone else's candidate.

[KingCharlemagne]

34. Oy vey. This ain't simply a 'picture of two people together' (since the male in the

photo is by most accounts a war criminal).

[Agschmid]

37. I'm sorry a picture of two Secretaries of State together...

That's it.

That's all it is, a picture. In this case there really aren't that many words attached to it.

What a foolish post.

[KingCharlemagne]

46. Maybe Hillary is competing to see if she can achieve a higher body count. She'll

have some work to do, since Kissinger has about 2-3 million notches in his belt. But I have confidence in her.

[Agschmid]

47. Next time if you feel that way...

Rather than posting a foolish meme, use your words.

There are pictures of many world leaders with Kissinger and until you post an OP decrying all those folks too your bias/motive is clear.

I hate that I have to "defend" against this shit here.

[KingCharlemagne]

52. My, aren't you the noble one? Kissinger is a war criminal who should be shunned by anyone

with a heart that pumps blood, not hugged and coddled.

FFS.

[Agschmid]

53. In which court is he being tried?

So you'll condemn all those other folks too? I'll wait for it.

[KingCharlemagne]

56. He's being tried in the court of basic human decency. You might

want to check it out some time. At least McNamara expressed some limited remorse and regret. Kissinger probably thinks we should have killed a couple million more southeast Asians.

[Agschmid]

76. So no court. Got it.

You go on with your meme, have fun.

[2banon]

140. Are you denying Kissinger is by any measure of justice a War Criminal? n/t

[Agschmid]

145. I don't know enough about the situation to make that call.

Are you suggesting he has been tried and convicted somewhere?

[2banon]

174. most of the worlds brutal murderers have not been tried in any criminal court

But presumably you already know that. so this bs "which court" has Kissinger ever been tried and convicted is bs and a very shallow attempt to give cover to him, the policies and his good buddies such as HRC.

She's not his only best friend of course. But to see this candidate hugging this bloodthirsty war monger is rather contemptible. If you're too young to know his history, you might want to spend a little time researching into a bit.

[Agschmid]

213. "His best friend"...

Yah, okay.

[2banon]

310. Way to dodge the point wrt to Kissinger was and still is BLOODTHIRSTY WAR CRIMINAL.

Got issues with my interpretation of the picture of the two of them hugging?

That might be considered a fair point for discussion, but not as a dodge on the point of who and what Kissinger is.

You don't get a pass on that.

You said previously, that you didn't know enough about him. and now you're taking issue with my interpretation of the image with the two of them together.

Either you know who and what Neo-Con Kissinger is, and agree that no decent leader should be associated with him in a personal or official capacity, particularly a Democratic Presidential Candidate; or, this relationship should be of no concern to the Democratic Party electorate, because after all, they're good friends.

Which is it?

[Agschmid]

432. Your interpretation of one photo is so rediculous...

You loose credibility.

Sure he might be a bad guy, and least I admit to not knowing enough about it to make that call. But your characterization of their relationship is just OTT.

[2banon]

542. Classic.

Unless you're 15 years old or younger, claiming ignorance as to who and what Kissinger pretty much defines deceptive bullshit in the context of this discussion.

The photo image itself is meaningless.

What matters is her working relationship with him in terms of policy. (i could give a shit less if she had an intimate affair with him if that's what you're assuming)


Just for the record:

here's just a few more. .

.

[Agschmid]

583. .

You said this...

The photo image itself is meaningless.

Then link to more photos, just to propagate a meme.

And my ignorance isn't deceptive, it just it. I've read up on it and I see arguments on both sides, its a lot of information to wade through. Yet I say again he hasn't been charged for any intention crimes against humanity so it appears he may have made bad decisions but they don't rise to the level some of you think. Again I really don't know I wasn't born until about a decade after he was SOS, so no first hand experience here.

[polly7]

475. Oh he's just a good old boy ..... nothing to see here.

Despite warnings by senior US officials that thousands of Chileans were being tortured and slaughtered, then Secretary of State Kissinger told Pinochet, "You did a great service to the West in overthrowing Allende."

Rather than calling peaceful protesters “despicable”, perhaps Senator McCain should have used that term to describe Kissinger’s role in the brutal 1975 Indonesian invasion of East Timor, which took place just hours after Kissinger and President Ford visited Indonesia. They had given the Indonesian strongman the US green light—and the weapons—for an invasion that led to a 25-year occupation in which over 100,000 soldiers and civilians were killed or starved to death. The UN's Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation in East Timor (CAVR) stated that U.S. "political and military support were fundamental to the Indonesian invasion and occupation" of East Timor.

If McCain could stomach it, he could have read the report by the UN Commission on Human Rights describing the horrific consequences of that invasion. It includes gang rape of female detainees following periods of prolonged sexual torture; placing women in tanks of water for prolonged periods, including submerging their heads, before being raped; the use of snakes to instill terror during sexual torture; and the mutilation of women’s sexual organs, including insertion of batteries into vaginas and burning nipples and genitals with cigarettes. Talk about physical intimidation, Senator McCain!

More: http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/01/30/henry-kissinger-or-codepink-whos-low-life-scum

[Art_from_Ark]

630. Many countries have wanted to have him extradited

for, for example, his involvement in the coup in which the democratically-elected president of Chile, Salvador Allende, who was holed up in the Chilean mint, was bombarded by forces of Gustavo Pinochet, the Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army who had the backing of Mr. Kissinger. Pinochet went on to murder countless numbers of Chileans in his reign of terror.

Kissinger also wholeheartedly supported Operation Condor, which led to the deaths of untold numbers of desaparecidos thoughout South America in the 1970s.

"Henry Kissinger, Secretary of State in the Nixon and Ford administrations, was closely involved diplomatically with the Southern Cone governments at the time and well aware of the Condor plan. According to the French newspaper L'Humanité, the first cooperation agreements were signed between the CIA and anti-Castro groups, and the right-wing death squad Triple A, set up in Argentina by Juan Perón and Isabel Martínez de Perón's "personal secretary" José López Rega, and Rodolfo Almirón (arrested in Spain in 2006).[68]

"On 31 May 2001, French judge Roger Le Loire requested that a summons be served on Henry Kissinger while he was staying at the Hôtel Ritz in Paris. Le Loire wanted to question the statesman as a witness regarding alleged U.S. involvement in Operation Condor and for possible US knowledge concerning the "disappearances" of five French nationals in Chile during military rule. Kissinger left Paris that evening, and Loire's inquiries were directed to the U.S. State Department.[69]

"In July 2001, the Chilean high court granted investigating judge Juan Guzmán the right to question Kissinger about the 1973 killing of American journalist Charles Horman. (His execution by the Chilean military after the coup was dramatized in the 1982 Costa-Gavras film, Missing.) The judge's questions were relayed to Kissinger via diplomatic routes but were not answered.[70]

"In August 2001, Argentine Judge Rodolfo Canicoba sent a letter rogatory to the US State Department, in accordance with the Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT), requesting a deposition by Kissinger to aid the judge's investigation of Operation Condor.[71] On 10 September 2001, a civil suit was filed in a Washington, D.C., federal court by the family of Gen. René Schneider, murdered former Commander-in-Chief of the Chilean Army, asserting that Kissinger ordered Schneider's murder because he refused to endorse plans for a military coup. Schneider was killed by coup-plotters loyal to General Roberto Viaux in a botched kidnapping attempt. As part of the suit, Schneider's two sons filed for civil damages against Kissinger and then-CIA director Richard Helms for $3 million.[72][73][74]

"On 16 February 2007, a request for the extradition of Kissinger was filed at the Supreme Court of Uruguay on behalf of Bernardo Arnone, a political activist who was kidnapped, tortured and disappeared by the dictatorial regime in 1976.[75]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor

[davidpdx]

694. I believe there was quite a bit of background on those events in

The Shock Doctrine as well if I remember correctly. My copy of the book is over at the other apartment.

[polly7]

639. The Trials of Henry Kissinger (Eugene Jarecki, 2002)

He has been tried many times in the world court of public opinion.

[Agschmid]

641. Yup still not a court.

Sorry, but it's just not the same thing.

[polly7]

644. Lucky for him though, eh!!!? nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Like this

I am ready for the insults now but I intend to defend myself.

[Agschmid]

79. Don't feed into that foolishness.

Most of us understand how rediculous of a meme that is.

[polly7]

484. Pictures, pictures everywhere .....

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[DemocratSinceBirth]

486. God bless Mandella

lol@ Khadafy with Tony and Barack

[polly7]

489. Lots of us laughed at this one too

when told the invasion was because of the the evil dictator and the lies of WMD, just like the lies of rape and mass murder used by the Al Quaeda puppets 'word to ear' to the UN to enable the 'humanitarian invention'.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

Dictators are useful! - until they dare mention switching from the almighty dollar and use and control their own resources, then it's just too much to BEAR for the west.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

492. That's the irony of Khadafy...

He was our eternal enemy until he foreswore WMDs, then we co-opted and rehabilitated him. After that he was killed by his own people.

[polly7]

494. No, he was killed by CIA trained and sponsored members of Al Quaeda and their recruits,

when two NATO strikes stopped his vehicle, then the 'friendly rebels' beat, tortured and finally sodomized him to death with a bayonet in the street.

Do some reading.

You rehabilitated him?? LOL. Really. His people were better off than most in the region all along, he was doing great things for all of Africa and keeping the West OUT, just part of the problem. Takes a lot of arrogance to believe any country should be able to control any other, doesn't it?

You have the power to rehabilitate leaders of sovereign nations ........ what a sick joke. Who had Libya invaded recently?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

499. Why would the United States ask for an investigation that would have implicated them?

The United Nations (UN) has already said it would conduct an investigation after grisly footage of Mr Gaddafi's last minutes. The same day the African Union called for an investigation.

US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Britain's Defence Secretary Philip Hammond said a full investigation was necessary.

http://www.bdlive.co.za/articles/2011/10/24/calls-grow-for-full-investigation-into-gaddafi-s-death;jsessionid=383BF91E53F6723B0A0B93E19805A393.present2.bdfm

[polly7]

501. They also said he was spreading Viagra to his army in order to commit mass rapes.

A lie.

Why would anything from the west be believable in all this?

The UN accepted lies from the CIA trained rebel leader 'Prime Minister' based on nothing - PROVEN LIES. Why would anything they say be believable in all of this?

You seem to believe I need to believe anything that comes out of the mouths of those who chose to drop bombs on innocents and enable the horrors they went through with their trained 'rebels'. Sorry, I learned, during Iraq.

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi died after being stabbed with a bayonet in the anus and not in a firefight as originally claimed by Libyan authorities, according to a report on the Libyan dictator's last hours.

Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.

"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.


New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.

The charity obtained unedited mobile footage that showed militia fighters abusing Gaddafi as they took him into custody in October 2011.

"As he was being led on to the main road, a militiaman stabbed him in his anus with what appears to have been a bayonet, causing another rapidly bleeding wound," the report said.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6716466


Oh, I also watched it live.

Try harder.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

506. I thought this was a civil conversation...

I thought this was a civil conversation...I said in my seminal post on this topic I wasn't going to let myself be insulted and I meant it .


Find somebody else to insult/disrespect/mock. I am nobody's pinata in real life and I would rather have someone bust a cap in my ear than be somebody's pinata on the internet.

[polly7]

507. I'm nobody's pinata either, certainly not yours. See ya! nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

509. As long as the record shows I didn't cast the first stone. Have a day. See ya. nt.

[polly7]

510. You asked me to believe lies.

Sorry you're so upset that I'm not that gullible.

And who gives a single fuck what the record shows?

Bye bye, now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

516. Am I supposed to be intimidated

Am I supposed to be intimidated by the use of the word fuck?

lol

I was doing it at eleven. In the working class milieu I was raised in we matured fast.


Bye bye, now

[polly7]

517. That's good. Have a pleasant evening. nt.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

519. You as well.nt

[hrmjustin]

74. Disgusting.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

244. Well said

I wish more Bernie supporters would heed his words, "I'm not going to attack Hillary Clinton. I want to talk about the issues."

Okay I'm perhaps paraphrasing but that was the gist of his statement. And if anyone cares I have not yet made a decision who I will support for the nomination.

However I will vote for whoever gets the Democratic nomination. We do not need another rightie on the Supreme Court. That's who gave us Citizens United and other crappy decisions.

[Rex]

274. Heads up, someone doesn't like that you posted that picture! They tried to poo poo it.

On Sat May 23, 2015, 09:45 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

That laugh at the end. Wow. No wonder she pals
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6715606

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"Pals around with". Look, if folks are going to use the 2008 right wing meme of "pallin' around", maybe they are on the wrong message board. Let's not make DU a parrot of the freeperville please. It's absolutely horrible Community Standards.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat May 23, 2015, 09:52 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter needs a thicker skin to survive the coming primary campaign.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Yeah let us just ignore what we see with our own two eye. Alerter needs to realize that when you pal around with certain people, you must take the responsibility for those actions. Henry is a warmongering asshole that belongs in prison. Deal with it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: She did pal around with Kissinger. The picture proves it. Putting your arm around the guy is the definition of "palin' around." Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerted on a photo? Grow a thicker skin and be prepared to defend your candidate - if you can. If you can't, perhaps it's time to take a hard look at your choices and make a frank re-evaluation. In the meantime, put down the verbal insults and engage the facts.

Christ! You people.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Someone lost their right to alert for a bit! Serves em right for such a pathetic alert!

[Divernan]

285. KingCharlemagne wins over alerter, 7-0!

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
On Sat May 23, 2015, 09:45 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

That laugh at the end. Wow. No wonder she pals
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6715606

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"Pals around with". Look, if folks are going to use the 2008 right wing meme of "pallin' around", maybe they are on the wrong message board. Let's not make DU a parrot of the freeperville please. It's absolutely horrible Community Standards.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat May 23, 2015, 09:52 AM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter needs a thicker skin to survive the coming primary campaign.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Yeah let us just ignore what we see with our own two eye. Alerter needs to realize that when you pal around with certain people, you must take the responsibility for those actions. Henry is a warmongering asshole that belongs in prison. Deal with it.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: She did pal around with Kissinger. The picture proves it. Putting your arm around the guy is the definition of "palin' around." Leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerted on a photo? Grow a thicker skin and be prepared to defend your candidate - if you can. If you can't, perhaps it's time to take a hard look at your choices and make a frank re-evaluation. In the meantime, put down the verbal insults and engage the facts.

Christ! You people.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Divernan]

319. Photo from 2013/Henry endorses Hill for president at Atlantic Council Leadership Awards

Just goes to prove no money or endorsement is too tainted for HRC.

The Hillary Clinton for President bandwagon just got another rider: Henry Kissinger.

Her fellow former secretary of state went beyond the typical professional courtesy and gave what sounded like a heartfelt endorsement for Clinton in 2016. “At least four secretaries of state became president,” he said at Wednesday’s Atlantic Council’s Leadership Awards. “I want to tell Hillary that when she misses the office, when she looks at the histories of secretaries of state, there might be hope for a fulfilling life afterwards.”

Clinton and Kissinger sat side by side during dinner at the Ritz-Carlton, creating a traffic jam of VIPs lined up to have a moment or snap a picture.

In Haig's presence, Kissinger referred pointedly to military men as "dumb, stupid animals to be used" as pawns for foreign policy. Kissinger often took up a post outside the doorway to Haig's office and dressed him down in front of the secretaries for alleged acts of incompetence with which Haig was not even remotely involved. Once when the Air Force was authorized to resume bombing of North Vietnam, the planes did not fly on certain days because of bad weather. Kissinger assailed Haig. He complained bitterly that the generals had been screaming for the limits to be taken off but that now their pilots were afraid to go up in a little fog. The country needed generals who could win battles, Kissinger said, not good briefers like Haig.

As quoted in The Final Days by Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein in chapter 14. Page 194 in the paperback version (1995).

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Henry_Kissinger

[cali]

22. imagine if this was a republican

The HRC supporters here would be outraged. It's the hypocrisy, stupid- to misquote James Carville.

[raouldukelives]

180. Not hard too. Sounds like the usual jovial banter of McCain. nt

[840high]

580. You are so right.

[Oilwellian]

23. There is one other, equally as disturbing

It was one of those moments where she exposed her vile, true nature . It happened in a 2012 Charlie Rose interview with she and James Baker, another vicious neocon. James Baker stated, if Obama fails in his negotiations with Iran, we should "take them out." Watch Hillary's response to the suggestion of annihilating millions of innocent men, women and children.

[bahrbearian]

25. Wow

[Agschmid]

33. She literally says nothing, and laughs at his idea.

What do you take away from this video?

[R B Garr]

312. Exactly, she laughs at his idea.

That's it. It's ridiculous to insinuate she was laughing in agreement. She was clearly skeptical in her response.

[Ms. Toad]

636. Smiling laughter, followed by "We're working hard, we're working hard"

signifies agreement, not skepticism, in any conversation I've ever been part of.

[R B Garr]

638. Actually, saying, "Yes, I agree with you" -- that would signify agreement.

"We're working hard," could also be interpreted as a sarcastic way of shutting someone up. She clearly was skeptical of what he said.

[merrily]

35. That hearty laugh couldn't make anyone in another country want to kill us, could it?

[Agschmid]

38. What do interpret she is laughing at?

[hrmjustin]

43. That was a nervous laugh.

[darkangel218]

84. Holy fuck...

[Agschmid]

112. Please share what you took away from the video?

[darkangel218]

113. Didnt i just say I was done replying to you?

[Agschmid]

114. Clearly you made it through that.

Please tell me what you take away from a video where HRC has NO dialogue whatsoever, and laughs at the idea presented by James Baker. I'd really like to hear your interpretation.

[darkangel218]

115. *shakes head* nt

[Agschmid]

118. Hopefully you are also clicking "ignore" since it appears you are unwilling to share.

It's great to see these posts that hit at a candidate with "Holy Fuck" and then have zero context, what's your stand? What could we do differently, did we invade Libya? How can we solve our problems rather than just throwing food at each other.

[darkangel218]

123. Why would I explain you anything?

You refused to explain why you called Bonobo's post sexist, and what made you do that, since there was nothing sexist there.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6715890
Why then should I explain you anything??
I won't ignore you, but we are done in this thread.

[Agschmid]

129. Okay...

So here we have a perfect example of why this conversation isn't working. People are willing to have rational conversations. Sure our policies haven't worked in the ME before, well then why not change them.

Our interactions don't have to be military in scope, but people also need to be realists. ISIS doesn't just want to chat it out. That doesn't make me a hawk it makes me a realist.

I'm actually interested in a having a conversation and I know Bernie is as wel that's why I support him. But I also am not going to just let people falsely attack the other Democratic candidate, that isn't going to do us any good.

Sorry that we disagree but it is what it is.

[darkangel218]

136. You keep making claims:

First that Bonobo's post was "sexist"; when there was nothing sexist there, and now that "people are making false attacks". Hmmm.. do you see the irony there?

Have a nice day.

[Agschmid]

142. My post stood 2-5.

You might just be missing it, whether or not there was sexism. My reply to Bonobo wasn't a personal attack, a personal attack is when you direct your anger/frustration at a person. That's not what I did.

You aren't going to agree with me, that's clear, and that's fine.

But let's get back to the point at hand. You watched a video in which Hillary Clinton said nothing, absolutely nothing. She laughed at the end my interpretation is because she thought James Bakers idea was a bit, off the wall.

What is yours?

[darkangel218]

149. Post the results. How many agreed that Bonobo's post was "SEXIST"?

Maybe it wasnt a personal attack, but how many jurror see the imaginary sexism? I doubt anyone did. And you still haven't explained us where the sexism was in that post.
Please enlighten us, and we may have a conversation.

[Agschmid]

163. I didn't say anyone agreed with me.

It just wasn't a personal attack.

[darkangel218]

167. Did i say anything about a personal attack?

You said people are falsely attacking candidates, but seconds earlier you accused Bonobo's post of sexism, with no reason to do so. I am still waiting for the enlighting explanation as to why his post was sexist.

[Agschmid]

221. You'll be waiting a while.

I don't owe you anything, you don't owe me anything. Clearly we don't agree, we aren't going to agree. It is what it is.

See you around DU.

[darkangel218]

224. Yah, no kidding. But if i was you I would stop accusing people of posting sexist posts when clearly

they are not. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6715811 It's not cool.

Have a nice day.

[darkangel218]

230. And please dont PM me again. Say it here if you have a problem with me.

Nothing is stopping you from doing that.

[Agschmid]

238. .

[darkangel218]

241. I didnt respond to you, and i dont intend to.

Post here if you have an issue with me.

[Agschmid]

243. What do you think I've been doing this entire time?

[KMOD]

225. Well I found it odd that he would like to smack HRC in the head.

[darkangel218]

226. He never said that. Did he?

If so I missed it. Care to post where he said he would like to "smack HC in the head"?

[KMOD]

233. How do you interpret this?

I will never forget how I reacted. Without thinking a smacked him in the back of the head and told him that he was watching people die horrible fucking deaths and that it was no movie.

It shocked him. I knew it was the right thing to do.

That is what I would like to do when I see her giggle like this

Because I interpret it as he would like to smack HRC in the head.

[Agschmid]

236. Don't bother, it's a lost cause.

Some people are blind to what is around them.

[KMOD]

246. It sure seems that way.

[darkangel218]

249. Bonobo only related what happened in 92/3 between him and his college buddy.

Why are you making shit up? I was seriously thinking I missed something.
How does him relating that story make you accuse him of "wanting to smack HC on the head"??????

WTF!

[Agschmid]

251. Really?

That is what I would like to do when I see her giggle like this

[darkangel218]

256. Ok, i missed that part.

That is why I asked you earlier to post where he said that. But you didnt.
He was wrong there.

[Agschmid]

264. Thank you.

[darkangel218]

271. Still not a "sexist" post.

You said you won't enlighten us what the sexist part was, so I won't ask you again.

Just pointing it out.

[Agschmid]

284. Okay fine.

The word "giggle" instead of laugh, and the comment about "smacking" her. That's what did it for me.

You don't need to agree, but I sure as hell should be allowed to point out what I see.

[darkangel218]

287. Thats not "sexist", because the friend he said he "smacked " in college was a male.

So where the heck is the sexism?????

[KMOD]

296. Can we call it disturbing?

[darkangel218]

301. The other poster called it sexist.

I would call it not right. And I would appreciate if she deleted. Because its not true. It taints another DUer reputation falsely.

[KMOD]

306. The post that should be deleted, or at least edited

should be the post where a man says he wishes he could smack HRC, who is a woman, in the head.

If the poster is truly worried about his reputation, that is where he could start.

My opinion, of course.

[darkangel218]

308. There was nothing sexist there!

On what basis was that post sexist?? Because he said he smacked his MALE friend in college when he laughed at Shock & Awe , and he feels doing it when he watches Hillary fleeing over someone's death????

You can't possibly be serious!

[KMOD]

315. I called it disturbing.

Not only does he smack his male friend, he also wishes he could smack a female.

You can call it what you wish, I call it disturbing.

[darkangel218]

320. When i said Achshmids post should be deleted, you said

Bonobos post should be instead. How so? Do you agree with false sexism allegations??? I think personally calling someone sexist is a pretty big deal. Why shouldn't both posts be deleted/edited???

[KMOD]

324. I don't care for people who would like to smack women

or anyone for that matter.

I think posting that you would like to smack a woman is disturbing. Very disturbing.

I really don't care if someone who wishes to smack a woman has their feelings hurt.

My opinion, of course.

[darkangel218]

329. He didnt say he would smack her, he said he felt like it.

So he is sexist because of that???
Aren't both genders equal??? Why is he not a misandrist for actually smacking his college buddy then???

I don't freaking get it, and I'm trying to.

[KMOD]

343. I'm am not ok with men who would like to smack women,

and who admit to smacking men. I find it very disturbing.

If that is not clear enough, then yes, you don't get it.

[darkangel218]

398. But you are OK with gleeing witn joy over the death of another human??

[Agschmid]

400. Not sure "gleeing" is a word.

And again if we are going back to that central issue, I doubt that was glee, relief maybe but "glee" I found doubtful.

[darkangel218]

405. You falsely accused another DUer, Bonobo, of sexism.

Until you explain yourself, I have nothing left to say to you.

[Agschmid]

408. I did up thread.

What I find interesting is why that poster hasn't asked me to delete or edit. It's you taking up their fight... Now why is that? What do you have invested in this?

When a (assumed man) posts about a full grown adult woman "giggling" (notice how many times he uses it), and then insinuates that he want to smack her (Hillary Clinton). I'm not going to just sit there.

And I'm not going to just alert (as someone did on me) but rather call it out as I see it.

There isn't really room for negotiation here, but I'd sure hate to be your friend if smacking people isn't a big deal to you.

[darkangel218]

410. You "call it out", on a false premises.

That's not sexism. How is "smacking a colleague" for laughing over shock & Awe , and saying you felt doing the same over a woman, is sexist??????????????????????

????????????????????????

[KMOD]

402. people react different to death.

There is no rule book.

[Agschmid]

397. Why should I be forced to delete a post which in my opinion is correct?

And withstood a jury?

[darkangel218]

403. Your opinion, allegations of sexism, was not correct.

Do whatever you want, it's a free country. No one is forcing you to do shit.

[Agschmid]

404. Sure... Okay...

[darkangel218]

407. Yes. I asked you to justify your allegations, and you refused.

So have at it.

[Agschmid]

409. I've done it now three times...

How many times to I need to justify my feeling to you?

Should I PM you again?

[darkangel218]

411. 3 times??? how?

I just asked you above how do you justify your sexism claims, and you haven't answered me yet.

And please, for the love of gods, do not send me unwanted PMs again.

[Agschmid]

412. Either way you'll get through it.

Yes I've now explained myself 3 times, you just don't seem to be paying attention.

[darkangel218]

416. You just like to make false sexim accusations against another DUer, and you seem to think its ok.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6715811

It is not.

It's absolutely disgusting what youre doing.

[Agschmid]

418. I await Bonobo to take it up with me.

Can't quite figure out why you've made this your mission?

[darkangel218]

419. Because i have been falsely accused before, and i dont think this should br allowed.

You are breaking community standards by doing so.

[Agschmid]

421. I'm not.

Says a jury 2-5.

[darkangel218]

422. Jury was jurying "personal attack".

Where is your excuse for SEXISM allegations???????????????????????????? Huh???

[Agschmid]

423. Again check up thread, I laid it out.

And for you to call it an "excuse" is weaksauce.

I called out what I saw. I have yet to hear from Bonobo, just you it seems.

[Bonobo]

477. I meant smack her in the sense of waking her up. If you really think that I

Meant I would like to hit her, you really missed the point of my story which is that I woke my friend up from his giggling delight at death.

I would like to do the same for Hillary and a small smack to the back of the head on par with a head tap is not exactly violence.

You seem to be on a personal smear roll and I guess you have come to the decision that is the best way to proceed on this thread.

Very "internetty" of you.

[KMOD]

483. Here are your words.

I will never forget how I reacted. Without thinking a smacked him in the back of the head and told him that he was watching people die horrible fucking deaths and that it was no movie.

It shocked him. I knew it was the right thing to do.

That is what I would like to do when I see her giggle like this

That is exactly what you posted.

I am not a personal smear roll. I have no respect for anyone who wants to smack a woman, or anyone for that matter.

And that you now are attempting to insult me doesn't impress me much either.

[Bonobo]

490. Whatever, man, people can decide whatever they want.

This is an OP about Hillary Clinton and this is a political message board.

If you think labelling me as a woman-beating misogynist is how you wanna roll, go for it.

I personally think it's loathsome behavior and cowardly.

But go for it. I won't play anymore. I told you what I meant.

[KMOD]

495. You sure did.

You like to smack people when you don't agree with them.

I think your behavior is disgusting.

[Agschmid]

395. She is a "he"...

And the other DU'er will get through it.

[darkangel218]

413. You accused another DUer of sexism falsely.

You should delete and apologize.

[Agschmid]

414. Seriously?

[KMOD]

254. I'm not making anything up.

He admitted that he smacked his friend, and that is what he would like to do when he hears HRC laugh.

[darkangel218]

267. Saw that.

And I agree with you that it was wrong.

[Agschmid]

436. So did you ask him why he posted it?

Or is more important to figure out what I wa thinking?

[JTFrog]

451. When a man says he feels like hitting a woman, that is misogynistic.

Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

Misogyny is sexist by it's very definition as showing ingrained prejudice against women.

That being said, sexists are not always misogynistic. But acting misogynistic is acting sexist.

Smacking people around isn't behavior to boast about, and a man admitting publicly he wants to smack a woman is incredibly disturbing.

[TM99]

493. The hypocrisy is stunning.

Bonobo shares a story and the emotional gut response to Clinton's atrocious behavior and is called sexist and misogynistic.

But not a month ago, DU and the feminist brigade were totally A-OK with a mother smacking her son upside his head for stupid behavior.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/04/28/baltimore-mom-slaps-son-riot-freddie-gray/26505237/

After all, she was just a good mom. She didn't actually abuse him. She was just smacking some sense into him.

Yeah, sorry, y'all going off now on Bonobo is a personal attack and nothing more.

[JTFrog]

496. I have no idea what brigade you are talking about, or who "ya'll" are, however,

I will call out misogynistic shit every time I see it. Every. Time.

[TM99]

511. And I will call out hypocrisy.

[JTFrog]

552. Well, when you find it, feel free to let me know. n/t

[KMOD]

521. Bonobo admits he smacked his friend,

and would also like to smack HRC, and many here, including you apparently, seem A-OK with that.

Do you have a link to the thread you mention. Were upset at the mother smacking her son? Because you don't seem to care that Bonobo smacks people, and would like to smack HRC.

[Bonobo]

531. Are you not in the least embarrassed to derail a thread in this way?

This is an OP about Hillary Clinton on a message board and you are essentially doing nothing but attacking me, the OP.

[KMOD]

535. I'm not embarrassed at all.

I'm not a fan of people who smack people.

My mom was smacked. I will speak out against smackers thank you.

[Bonobo]

538. Actually, it is all good. The more people that see this video, the happier I am.

It speaks for itself.

Hillary is showing her true self here and it needs to be seen.

Please keep going and I will keep responding to keep this kicked.

[KMOD]

540. Gaddafi died.

Hillary reacted. Most people did not mourn Gaddafi's death.

You smacked someone, and yet you feel victimized.

Wow!

I don't care if it's kicked or not.

[Bonobo]

541. Your priorities are fucked up.

Hillary reacted with jingoistic, bombastic giddiness.

Probably from a place of atavistic patriotic sickness, the kind that makes America a truly frightening and hated country to many in the world.

I make an OP to discuss that and this is what you wind up focusing your time on.

OK, you are a Hillary supporter and want to divert from that, I understand.

But in that case, truly, your priorities are fucked beyond belief.

[KMOD]

546. It's your priorities that are fucked up.

HRC didn't smack anyone. You did. And you said you would like to smack her.

People react differently when hearing news of death. There is no right protocol there.

However you like to smack people when you don't like their reactions.

That is night and day difference.

And then you go on to insult me. It's not me that has the problem here, Bonobo. It's you.

[Bonobo]

548. A smack to a friend's head upon seeing their joy over watching people die is not an overreaction.

The fact that I feel the same emotion to seeing Hillary react with the same joy does not mean I actually want to hit her.

If you spend this much time quibbling about the night in college when I smacked my friend's head and whether that makes me a bad person when we are discussing a potential POTUS' behavior vis a vis military use, it is indeed YOU who have FUCKED UP priorities, KMOD.

There is no doubt about that.

[JTFrog]

553. So you resorted to violence.

To teach someone a lesson.

Well done, I guess.

[KMOD]

555. Smacking people, even for that reason, is not ok, ever.

Wanting to smack a woman, is not ok, ever.

You like to smack people when you don't like their reactions. You openly admit that.

You smacked your friend, and claim you would like to smack a woman. You have admitted to this.

And then you say my priorities are fucked up.

How can you possibly be serious here.

[Bonobo]

556. I actually don't think you are serious

To conflate a smack to the back of the head of a friend with violence.

To conflate my expressing an emotional reaction to literally wanting to hit Hillary Clinton or women in general.

It is like you are a parody of an Internet zombie.

[polly7]

558. Ok now ...... it's time to ignore!

You know what they're trying to do. It happens every stinking time a controversial thread is posted. Accept the kicks and ignore the crap - they are NOT serious.

[Bonobo]

561. You're right. It is obvious.

Hard not to defend yourself against outrageous accusations, but when you clarify your intentions and it continues it becomes obvious what is going on. A distraction from an OP that is painful for some because it really shows an ugly reality.

[KMOD]

591. You smacked someone. Hillary laughed.

You started the OP. You think laughing is worse than smacking.

[KMOD]

565. hahahaha

Yes, you should love your kicks and reps in a ridiculous thread where the OP openly admits wanting to smack a woman, because he didn't like her reaction to Gaddafi's death.

But you and Bonobo are the serious ones.

Unbelievable. I don't think anyone here is buying what you are selling.

[polly7]

578. Not even slightly truthful or interesting.

[KMOD]

582. Align yourself with people who smack people because they don't

like their reaction. That's your prerogative.

[polly7]

589. Aw thanks ......... you take such good care of me.

I'll stick with Bonobo here ...... he's already explained very clearly what he meant, and I really don't think most people took it literally, just as he didn't mean it literally. But you carry on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, on, and on, and on, and on.

[KMOD]

562. Fine, if I'm a parody of an internet zombie, then

you are an internet troll.

Smacking your friend because you don't like his reaction vs. HRC reacting to Gaddafi's death.

You said your words. And you seem to stand by them.

[Agschmid]

590. I'm a Bernie supporter and still thought the post you wrote wasn't okay.

I also think this:

Hillary reacted with jingoistic, bombastic giddiness.

Is a reach.

[okasha]

607. And you showed your true self

when you expressed a desire to hit her.

[TM99]

564. This is really pathetic.

A man says that when he was young and saw a guy laughing at death and destruction and he smacked him upside the head.

He then says he sees a SoS who now wants to be president acting just like that stupid young man, laughing at the sodomy and brutal execution of another human being.

He feels the same and expresses metaphorically the same desire of wanting to smack her upside the head like he did as a kid. Did he? No. Would he? No.

But instead of focusing on Clinton who laughed and made a joke about the brutal execution of Gadaffi, y'all are focusing on his imagination and not her reality.

Hypocrisy and a straw man non-sequitur in the same sub-thread.

Obviously what is most important to some of y'all is imagined misogyny but not the real revelling in violence that Clinton and others like her actually have done and continue to do.

Yes, that is fucking pathetic.

[KMOD]

567. What is pathetic is equating

HRC laughing at Gaddafi's death as a huge problem, yet Bonobo's actual smacking someone in the head and wishing he could smack a woman in the head as no biggie.

The sodomy and brutal execution were not HRC's doing, btw, nor did she know those details at that point.

Guys, probably the same kind of guys who want to smack someone in the head, participated in that.

Clinton laughed. Bonobo smacked his friend. I'll take laughter over smacking any day of the week.

[TM99]

576. Then you have problems

and deserve another neo-con in office.

Will you be fighting in the next war or at least sending your kids to do so?

While a young Bonobo was smacking his chum while watching the attacks on Baghdad, I was in Saudi Arabia about to deploy into Kuwait.

I know which of the two is the real problem.

[KMOD]

585. I have friends who served as well.

A very close friend of mine searched the World Trade Center for survivors or remains, and served in Iraq.

You can insult me all you want.

Smacking people and wanting to smack women is wrong.

[R B Garr]

586. Oh, please. Gadaffi's been saber-rattling and worse since the 70's,

long before the neocons. But now it's all on Hillary and everyone is a neocon. Just ridiculous.

[polly7]

570. Yes, more than pathetic.

Especially when the death was such an ugly, brutal one that I wouldn't wish upon the most rabid animal, let alone a human being - who had stated he would step down for peace, but was denied that by the 'humanitarian mission' and its sickening true goals.

[KMOD]

588. Too bad he didn't step down for peace before

he killed so many.

The deaths he caused were also very ugly and brutal, btw.

[polly7]

592. Here, you need to watch this.

It lays out the lies and the truth of it all quite well.

And then there's this:

PNAC's objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.

It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.

Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why. The video at the end is particularly interesting.

The Untold Story in Libya
Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM
In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.

In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.

Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the world’s most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.

In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.

Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.

*************************************************************************************************

Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.

http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...

*************************************************************************************************

From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.

http://antemedius.com/content/libya-r2p-no...

"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.

That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."

"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."

*************************************************************************************************

"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...

*************************************************************************************************

NATO’s War on Libya is an Attack on African Development–Dan Glazebrook

6 09 2011

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /

To prevent this ‘threat of African development’, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how – militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new “command and control centre” for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafi’s revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the world’s biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.

*************************************************************************************************

The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the West’s vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libya’s petroleum laws. Gadhafi’s defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.

Libya: Here We Go Again

Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed

http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...

*************************************************************************************************

LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...

"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.

Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."

*************************************************************************************************

JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011

http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...

..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.

The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .

*************************************************************************************************

Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...

Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email

A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.

Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.

*************************************************************************************************

Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087

http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-nato’s-“humanitarian-imperialism”-in-libya

In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.

<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times – the sacred temple for the ‘stenographers of power’ we call “journalists” – reported that Gaddafi was amassing “thousands of mercenaries” to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>

Italy’s Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as “credible.”<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be “peaceful protesters” who “are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.”<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that “thousands” of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, “and called for international intervention to protect civilians.”<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafi’s forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, “Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya,” with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>

As it turned out, these claims – as posterity notes – turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and “have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy,” and their investigations in Eastern Libya “have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafi’s forces.” Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is “deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape” in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, “there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas”; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, “told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.”<


Untrue, says US

US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.

"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8


US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...

UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.

Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.

While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.


*************************************************************************************************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:

The Untold Story in Libya:

How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising

http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /

The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...

*************************************************************************************************
Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and America’s Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot

Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad

.."The country was commended: “for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care.” There was “praise” for “cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption ..” and for cooperation with “the International Organization for Migration.”

“Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare” with “measures taken to promote transparency”, were also cited. Malaysia: “Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments.” Promotion: “of the rights of persons with disabilities” and praise for “measures taken with regard to low income families”, were cited...

.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nation’s destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : “a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations.” With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, “UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee.” (AJC.)"

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /

Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.



And I think we're going to be shocked and disgusted as more and more information comes out.

Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.

A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.

No Evidence? No Problem!!

Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya

Must Watch Video

How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change

One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.

Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafi’s government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.

"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm


*************************************************************************************************
What you don't know about the libyan crisis:

...


The Grand Finale - sodomized with a stick, beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".

**************************************************************************************************

Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency

by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015

Last week’s drownings in the Mediterranean were the foreseeable, and indeed deliberate, a result of the anti-human policies of strategic violence by a dying neo-colonial empire. They were the consequence, firstly, of a series of wars of aggression that have made life intolerable across vast swathes of Africa and West Asia, and, secondly, of the fateful EU decision last November to end Italy’s search-and-rescue programme, Mare Nostrum. This much has been admitted by politicians and commentators from across the entire British political establishment, from Nigel Farage and the Daily Telegraph to David Cameron and Ed Miliband. Whilst these admissions have often been tempered with caveats, denials, distortions and half-truths, the hideous reality behind them is increasingly impossible to deny.

NATO’s war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the ‘revolutionaries’ and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATO’s shock troops – militias with names like the ‘Brigades for the purging of black skins’ – ‘ethnically cleansed’ the region. Last week’s butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATO’s ‘Libyan revolution’ (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, “a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him”.

And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libya’s borders. NATO’s war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libya’s arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, “We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die….Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.”

Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the world’s refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/

Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/

**************************************************************************************************

Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the West’s wars

By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015

Next week, the EU will launch work on its plan to tackle the Mediterranean migrant crisis. The EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini has asked the UN for help to dismantle the smuggling networks.

European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to “use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers’] vessels.

“Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died – a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014,” it continues.

Since 2011, Libya has been ripped apart, its social fabric torn asunder and its state structure largely absent. Nato’s bombardment precipitously destroyed the state and handed over the country to warring militias.

The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the West’s behavior in Libya.

Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/

Just as much a fucking sham as Iraq, with the exact same results.

[Agschmid]

593. Big reach...

revelling in violence

[TM99]

603. So actual video proof is a big reach?

Please. You and others can delude yourselves if you so choose. I will not.

[Agschmid]

609. It's ridiculous to think you know what someone thinks and feels.

I can't even believe this kind of thing is posted on DU.

[TM99]

612. It is ridiculous to

ignore what someone presents of themselves to the world and not to question their thoughts and feelings according.

Several instances plus her policy positions can give us damned good clues as to how she will act with regards to foreign policy.

Hawks have often been known to lie about military duty and awards received. Then the truth comes out that they never even served. Hillary Clinton lied in national interviews about being under sniper fire in Bosnia. It was a wholesale fabrication of events.

She has a history that yes, can and should be judged on how she may think, feel, and therefore act as a potential President of our country.

I can't believe the willful denial on DU after what I witnessed here during GW Bush's Iraq war and the lies and photo ops after.

Mission accomplished!

[Agschmid]

613. Who were you then?

You've only been a member while B.O. has been president (since 2012)... so this:

I can't believe the willful denial on DU after what I witnessed here during GW Bush's Iraq war and the lies and photo ops after.

Just doesn't make sense. Did you lurk for a few years, and not participate? I find that hard to believe since you seem to have an opinion on most things?

[TM99]

616. I found DU through Bartcop

in the early 2000's.

Not that it is really any of your business, but yes, I did read but not post.

Hell, in the three years I have been a Star member and posting, the bulk of my on average two posts a day history tends to be in the Religion forums or commenting on music in the Lounge or video games.

In a two party system, unfortunately the best candidate will be a Democrat. But if the choice is between a true FDR progressive Democrat and a Third Way Republican lite like Obama and Hillary are, then yes, I will passionately engage in debate, discussion, and the like during this primary season.

Fuck, if Hillary wins the primary, you won't see me for a while as I won't be welcome here because I won't be voting for her ever. You will miss me I am sure, but I will back that November after the Republican is elected.

[Agschmid]

617. Interesting...

Go Bernie!

[Agschmid]

587. You are painting with quite a broad brush.

I certainly wasn't posting in support of that action, but I sure did call out sexism when I see it.

As I will do every time.

[Ms. Toad]

637. "We're working hard, we're working hard."

Is not no dialog.

When I say similar things, preceded by similar laughter, I am signifying agreement with the principle - albeit perhaps with skepticism that I might actually be able to accomplish what is being suggested.

[2banon]

159. omg that was disgusting. is the kind of thing HRC supporters dig about her?

I

[KoKo]

196. Didn't know about this one...thanks for posting..It's Chilling...

Both Baker and Hillary....gleeful over "Take 'em out!" Only thing missing is John McCain singing: "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Iran"

You can't advocate for bringing Freedom and Democracy to people when you act crazy and advocate killing innocents.

[Divernan]

351. HRC chuckles about getting a rapist of 12 yr. old off for time served.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/06/hillary-clinton-dogged-by-1975-rape-case/

Hillary Clinton's successful 1975 legal defense of an accused rapist has surfaced again with the victim, angered over a tape of Clinton chuckling over her courtroom tactics in the case, lashing out at the potential Democratic presidential candidate.

Clinton is heard laughing as she describes how she succeeded at getting her client a lighter sentence, despite suggesting she knew he was guilty. "He took a lie-detector test! I had him take a polygraph, which he passed, which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs," Clinton said about her client on the tapes, which were initially recorded, but never used, in the early 1980s.

The rape case has been investigated more than once, but with Clinton considering a presidential run, it is again commanding headlines.

Did Clinton take the case voluntarily or was she appointed by the court?

In "Living History," Clinton wrote that the criminal court judge appointed her, and that she "couldn't very well refuse the judge's request." The 2008 Newsday story quotes then-Clinton spokesman Howard Wolfson who refers to her as being "appointed by the Circuit Court of Washington County." However, in the newly-released audio tapes Clinton says a prosecutor for the case asked to take the case "as a favor to him."

What else has been written about it?

In 2008, during the height of her presidential primary campaign, Newsday published an in-depth story about Clinton's involvement with the trial. Newsday argued that Clinton's account in "Living History" left out "a significant aspect of her defense strategy - attempting to impugn the credibility of the victim." She reportedly sent an affidavit during the trial requesting the girl undergo a psychiatric examination at the university's clinic, and without offering any source, alleged that the victim had often sought older men. The case, Newsday claimed, "offers a glimpse into the way Clinton deals with crisis. Her approach, then and now, was to immerse herself in even unpleasant tasks with a will to win."

Two years into her career of making change and having Day One-readying experience, 27 year old Hillary Rodham was appointed a public defender in a rape case, and played out deep in the gray areas of morality by attacking the 12-year old victim's credibility. Though nobody involved in the case can recall a shred of evidence that the victim had any sort of history of making false claims, Hillary argued it as a centerpiece of her case anyway. And conveniently omitted this aspect of the case from her 2003 book, "Living History."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/02/24/463280/-Wow-Clinton-Attacked-12-Year-Old-Rape-Victim-s-Credibility-UPDATED#

Hillary Clinton never misses an opportunity to remind us of how much of a warrior she is on behalf of vulnerable children. Children vulnerable to the system. Vulnerable to the callousness of adults.

A 6th grader, Hillary? She "fantasized?" She "sought it out from older men?"

Hillary Clinton, saying shame on others.

UPDATE - To be more clear at what the gray area is here, officers of the court have a responsibility - an ethical responsibility - to adhere to principles of scrupulous honesty. When Hillary signed that affidavit, she was giving a sworn oath that she had knowledge and evidence that the 6th grader had a history of making false charges. That's what the affidavit says. But nobody, including the victim who has no axe to grind, believes this has any truth. That's the core of the Newsday story.

Dale Gibson, the investigator, doesn't recall seeing evidence that the girl had fabricated previous attacks. The assistant prosecutor who handled much of the case for Mahlon Gibson died several years ago. The prosecutor's files on the case, which would have included such details, were destroyed more than decade ago when a flood swept through the county archives, Mahlon Gibson said. Those files also would have included the forensics evidence referenced in "Living History."

That is the difference between zealous defense and breaching ethical responsibility. And every lawyer here knows it.

[Oilwellian]

539. Update on video...additional footage

For those who question what Hillary was laughing at, the entire segment of the conversation should be seen. I'm not sure why Charlie Rose went through the trouble of posting on YouTube, the short little blip that I originally posted, for if you watch the rest of the segment, it becomes quite clear that Hillary is giddy over Baker's suggestion that we take Iran out. She didn't laugh because Baker's suggestion was absurd, she laughed and backed up his suggestion by stating Obama did say that all cards were on the table where Iran was concerned..

The continued conversation:
vimeo.com/128692140

Entire interview:

[840high]

581. Disgusting.

[Fumesucker]

627. At least she managed to keep from rubbing her hands together

So there's that.

[99Forever]

24. That video is the essence of Hillary Clinton.

It is a peek inside her soul. It says everything a decent, moral person needs to know when deciding whether or not to support or vote for her.

[merrily]

30. That laugh couldn't make anyone in another country want to kill us, could it?

[Oneironaut]

36. She left out number 4.

They're currently shooting / decapitating people, defacing an ancient archaeological site, and want to destroy the world. HAHAHA! Hillarious!

[Agschmid]

42. So we're bringing ISIS into it now?

Okay let's talk ISIS what should we do?

Should we be isolationist and do nothing? Should we get involved and try to stop the advancement of the caliphate?

Which candidate will help us do the option you choose?

[Oneironaut]

49. It's too late. The cat's out of the bag.

Would you release small pox, and then say, "Okay, we need to talk about small pox now? How are we going to fix it?" The whole leadership of this country is at fault - from GWB to Obama to Hillary. Sure, GWB created the fire, but Obama kept throwing tinder on it by supporting the rebels in these countries that were supposedly secular. Even if our weapons (secret or public) weren't given to ISIS, the presence of warfare left a void for them to sink their tentacles into.

[Agschmid]

50. So you think we can't do anything...

I'm not sure that is correct.

[99Forever]

72. Hey, you finally got it right!

We CAN'T do anything. Nothing positive anyway.

Good to see you've finally came back to reality.

Congratulations.

[Agschmid]

75. America can't do anything positive to try to stop ISIS?

Nothing.

This great nation, full of scholars, can't come up with something? There is nothing we can do to help? Sure we haven't done it correctly in the past but what's to stop us now? We have a chance to elect leaders who can do this, and it appears according to you all is lost.

Wow, what a pessimist.

[JaneyVee]

98. If it was up to some here, we'd be speaking German.

[99Forever]

120. Yeah, next thing ya know we'll hafta learn how to speak ISIL!!!!!!

IIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Sharia law is a-commin' Run for yer life!

[JaneyVee]

125. lolwut?

I can't even imagine the train of thought you would have to arrive at that conclusion.

[Agschmid]

126. Yah that got weird...

[99Forever]

189. Concentrate.

You can figger it out, I gots faith in you.

[JaneyVee]

193. Yeeeah...I don't think I should take advice from you.

You seem a bit...out there. I'll pass.

[99Forever]

206. Cognitive disonance can do that to you.

I'm way "out there" in the real world, where we've learned that those who fail or refuse to learn the lessons of failures in the past, are condemned to repeat them.

Carry on...

[Agschmid]

223. People are open to learning you seem to be not open to trying.

[99Forever]

377. ...

Pot, meet kettle.

Transference much?

[99Forever]

116. "Insanity:

Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein Arguably, this smartest scholar "this nation" has ever known.

[Agschmid]

119. I'm not asking us to do the same thing, let's shift our mindset and do something different.

[99Forever]

124. "Do something" always manages to become "shock and awe."

No thanks. But feel free to jump on a plane and get right over and fix it up.

[JEB]

130. We as a country will not do anything positive until

we hold our own criminals at the highest levels to account. That goes for War criminals, war mongers, war profiteers and wall street scammers.

We have problems we cannot laugh or kill our way out of.

[Oneironaut]

73. Part of the problem is that we think we can "fix" the Middle East.

I think we've done enough, and I don't think there is any more to be done.

We think of these countries in terms of our own culture. That's wrong. We pretend that we understand the Middle East, but we don't. This is all while elements in our own country have a vested interest in causing problems there in the first place.

[HassleCat]

40. To do is to be

"To be is to do -- Socrates. To do is to be -- Sarte. Do be do be do. -- Sinatra." That's sometimes attributed to Kurt Vonnegut, but he may have picked it up from graffiti. Anyway, Clinton will become whatever she has to do to be elected. If her pollsters tell her she needs to appear stronger on terrorism, she will express genuine glee when recounting the death of some al Qaida guy, while softening the blow by expressing genuine sympathy for his wife and children who died in the same drone attack. And these emotions will not be fake or insincere. One gift of a good politician is the ability to really believe whatever needs to be said to please the voters. This is why I like Bernie Sanders over Clinton. I'll still vote for Clinton, of course, if she is the nominee.

[CentralMass]

67. I voted for and supported her in 2008 but her

her unwillingness or inability to commit on things out of her convictions when asked questions leaves me unable to read or trust her. I also find that when she has acted in an official capacity as either a Senator or Secretary of State, like the Libya debacle, more times then not I disagree with her choices.

I'm finding it increasingly harder to consider voting for her. Bernie Sanders has my vote n the primary..

[HassleCat]

99. Same here, sort of

I would rather see Bernie get the nomination for the reasons you mention. Still, Clinton would be miles ahead of any Republican, so I'll voter for her if she's the nominee.

[NYC Liberal]

41. I was thrilled when I heard that monster was dead. Same with bin Laden.

A vile dictator gets killed after ruling for 40-plus years -- and it's Hillary Clinton who gets condemned.

[Agschmid]

44. Yes, apparently DU is blind to history.

And now we have that foolish Kissinger/Hillary meme again. I am literally so sick of that.

[MoonRiver]

51. When I first watched this, which, btw, is almost devoid of context,

I thought I saw "Heritage Foundation" as, I suppose, the distributor of this propaganda. Don't see it now though.

[Agschmid]

54. No context at all. It's interesting what gets posted during the primary.

[Bonobo]

59. Yep, I'm pretty sure Heritage Foundation made her say that and giggle like that.

I would never giggle over someone's death. It is just impossible for me. I don't go there emotionally. Some people do.

I remember back in 1991 (or was it 1992) on the first night of the original shock and awe bombing.

I was in grad school and watching with friends on TV as we watched the banks of the river in Baghdad light up with explosions.

A friend, a few years younger than me, starting giggling like that, like it was so fucking cool...

I will never forget how I reacted. Without thinking a smacked him in the back of the head and told him that he was watching people die horrible fucking deaths and that it was no movie.

It shocked him. I knew it was the right thing to do.

That is what I would like to do when I see her giggle like this. It literally sickens me to my core and I am surprised that it doesn't you as well given your love for the animals of the earth of which humans are most definitely a part.

[Agschmid]

61. Your post reeks with dog whistle sexism.

[Bonobo]

62. Nonsense. nt

[darkangel218]

87. How is his post sexist?

You should delete.

[Agschmid]

90. No, when I see it I call it out.

[TM99]

103. There is nothing in that post that is sexism.

Psychopaths laugh and enjoy killing and death. I know this from personal and professional experience.

This woman giggled and made joke about killing. What is so sickening to me is that Democrats here reviled that behavior when GW Bush mocked a woman's execution as a joke. And yet, this is somehow acceptable?

[NYC Liberal]

117. Are these people "psychopaths"?

They're celebrating death.

[TM99]

513. Ah, the wisdom of the crowd defense.

Try again.

[NYC Liberal]

520. I said nothing about "wisdom of the crowd".

So, you try again.

[TM99]

528. Crowds always act out the worst of our humanity.

They celebrate violence, they perpetrate violence, and they often revel in destruction.

So yes, try again to justify one woman who wants to be our president but who has on several public occasions been observed to act gleeful over the death and misfortune of her 'enemies'.

[hrmjustin]

453. Is it ok that he wants to smack her in the back of the head?

"I will never forget how I reacted. Without thinking a smacked him in the back of the head and told him that he was watching people die horrible fucking deaths and that it was no movie.

It shocked him. I knew it was the right thing to do.

That is what I would like to do when I see her giggle like this"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6715798

[TM99]

514. There is a difference

between being so frustrating and disturbed by someone actions that you feel like doing that AND actually doing it.

How do you feel about this?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/04/28/baltimore-mom-slaps-son-riot-freddie-gray/26505237/

[hrmjustin]

518. I don't care for her hitting him.

Hd was saying he wanted to hit Hillary. To me that is wrong.

[TM99]

563. It was an exclamation of frustration.

Would he? No.

Did he? No.

If we can't separate real violence from imagined violence we deserve the worst leaders we get.

[hrmjustin]

566. Sorry but if he is going to say he would like to hit her he is going to be called out.

[TM99]

571. Compared to what Hillary exclaimed

in the video, I am having a hard time working up a call out for Bonobo over an imaginary slight versus a very real attitude towards violence.

[hrmjustin]

574. I am not asking you to do anything.

I just asked your opinion. Thank you for giving it to me.

Good night.

[TheKentuckian]

651. Beats pushing an entire nation into chaos, mayhem, death, and poverty by a factor of infinity.

What a weak ass comparrison! It reminds me of those excusing a cop choking a man to death for being accused of selling a loose cigarette except orders of magnitude more wickedly delusional.

Since forever smacking a person in the back of the head has been an expression about waking up the thoughtless sleep walker to functional awareness and now some are pretending it is some bizarre and previously unknown form of sexisim or some extreme expression of violence to be in the same playing field as unleashing our fire power to destabilize nations.

Both are idiotic crazy talk. A smack in the head (and a well deserved one at that) compared to God knows how many dead, maimed, injured, dislocated, tortured, and made refugees is flat fucking ridiculous and an absolutely shameful comparison.

[hrmjustin]

652. Do you think it is ok to advocate to hit Hillary Clinton?

[TheKentuckian]

672. Do you think it is OK to advocate creating chaos, death, destruction, poverty, and many refugees?

Along with further destabilizing the powder keg in the middle east while creating a virtual terrorism factory?

I advocate people be woken up from dangerous thinking however it can happen, sometimes the what the fuck are you thinking slap to the back of the head has been as effective as any method and certainly many orders of magnitude better than what happened.
Not my preferred method for sure but literally nothing compared to the psychotic laughter of a world leader in response to the destruction they cheered on, supported, and cackled maniacally about.

I bet the dead, maimed, and desperately wandering would like to do more than a wake up call slap to the back of the thoughtless head.

What kind of sick minds conflate a slap to the back of the malfunctioning noggin to thousands of deaths, chaos, mass poverty, huge numbers displaced, and tons of injured and maimed?

[hrmjustin]

673. Can you answer my question?

[TheKentuckian]

683. I did but you seem to have no response for the results of "We came, we saw, he died"

Again, a slap to the back of the cobwebbed noggin was not my preferred action nor my action but if it wakes a fool from deadly, black hole levels of entropy and folly I'll live with it and sure prefer it over the fruits of the seeds planted.

Why the fuck are you so very invested in pretending there is any equivalence here? A slap to the back of some wrongheaded fucker's melon versus how many dead, wounded, maimed, raped, future obliterated, made refugees, and impoverished? Please.

[hrmjustin]

684. i am not ok with advocating hitting Hillary Clinton in the back of the head.

And if you wish to continue talking to me do not curse at me.

[TheKentuckian]

685. Why are all lives worth so much less or at best equal to a slap to the back of the melon of the

destructive and dangerously wrongheaded?

Either way one does not have to endorse slapping anyone anywhere at anytime to refrain from framing the actions as equal or somehow making the slap worse, particularly when said slap is largely rhetorical in nature and certainly almost no risk of injury.

I think the focus on the slap is a distraction from the humanitarian disaster.

[hrmjustin]

687. Because i don't think it is right to advocate Hitting Hillary Clinton.

We can talk about issues of war and peace without getting or talking about violent ourselves.

We are supposed to be adults here.

[cherokeeprogressive]

177. ?

[JTFrog]

270. That post reveals a truly misogynistic nature.

Not that anyone here needed that post to see it.

Absolutely disgusting.

[hrmjustin]

471. +1

[Bonobo]

522. What about a post like this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1255&pid=39292

[polly7]

523. LOL!

Good find!

I'm quite sure the posters here believe you meant it literally. FFS. They do try though, don't they?

[Bonobo]

526. I think that people use whatever they can...

It is quite sad that in a thread discussing our political candidate who would literally hold the potential to KILL millions of people in her hands, that violence is actually being trivialized.

I meant smack in order to wake up, bring someone to a realization.

If that wasn't clear, I probably should have said it better. But I think that given the subject matter of this post, the imbalance of discussions of violence is really whacked.

On one hand, we have a criticism of a potential POTUS who is arguably partially responsible for the deaths of millions and on the other hand we have me being called a misogynist for FEELING like at that moment I want to smack the back of the head of a person (yes women are people too) of someone that is gleeful over the deaths of people.

Yes, priorities here are pretty whacked. But I actually think this personal stuff is just internet trolley. It is desperate rhetoric in the defense of the indefensible.

[polly7]

530. I think once you explained yourself as you did that should have been enough.

But turn your shirt inside out or something for pete's sake, you've got that huge, neon target thing on your back.

[Bonobo]

533. People know I'm a good person in real life and that is enough.

No one here really knows me. My wife of 24 years knows me, my 3 children know me, my friends know me.

I know what happens on the internet and I just have to laugh.

[polly7]

536. It's fairly easy to tell here that you're a good person.

And those that 'don't think so' - ' don't matter'.

Laughing is good!!!!

[KMOD]

527. The difference is you admitted that you actually smacked someone in the head,

thought he deserved it, and claimed you would like to do the same to HRC.

That poster is not being literal.

You really do smack people when you disagree with them.

[Bonobo]

529. Oh, does that kind of stretching not hurt your back?

I was describing an emotional response and the "smack" as a metaphor for waking someone up to themselves.

I do NOT want to hit Hillary Clinton for the record. I was describing an emotional reaction that I still do not think is unjustified or over the top in the face of gleeful bloodthirst.

[KMOD]

532. No. You admitted you smacked your friend and it shocked him.

And that you would like to do the same to HRC.

I'm glad you are now admitting that you don't want to smack HRC.

But you did smack your friend, because you didn't like his reaction.

[Bonobo]

534. I had an instantaneous reaction to his glee and it felt like a teachable moment.

And it worked.

And it was a light smack.

[JTFrog]

547. What about it?

I think I already stated how I feel about people smacking other people around. It's disturbing.

I said I would call out misogyny whenever I see it, so why exactly are you asking me about that post? Is it misogynistic to see a guy say he wants to smack another guy around or just disturbing?

I think you know my answer.

[Bonobo]

549. I do indeed know your answer. nt

[JTFrog]

551. So why bother with your gotcha attempt?

You wrote what you wrote. I can understand wanting to stuff the genie back in the bottle while trying to get the audience to look at something shiny, but I'm not interested in your silly and transparent games.

[darkangel218]

80. +1 million, Bonobo

I cried when Shock & Awe started. I could never smile over people's death

[Agschmid]

88. Your interpretation is off, and it's frustrating you ignore the sexism in that post.

But would call it out in others, how quickly our principles go out the window around here.

[darkangel218]

91. You really should delete your call out to Bonobo. seriously.

There was nothing sexist in his post.
Oh yah, and I'm done replying to you.

[Agschmid]

93. No. Read it again, you'll see it.

It's not hard.

[JTFrog]

277. Just leave Bonobo alone!!!!!!!!!!!!!111!!!!!!

Sexism and misogyny should be called out each and every time here.

Don't care if you see it or not.

[darkangel218]

278. Lol! nt

[KMOD]

192. So you smacked your friend in the head,

and you would like to smack HRC in the head, too?

How did you react to this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026715993

your peers didn't make it to grad school.

I'm not one to hit people, but if I were, I would smack Gaddafi in the head.

[Bonobo]

198. non-sequiturs are...non-sequitorial. nt

[KMOD]

212. So no opinion at all?

[hrmjustin]

406. So you want to hit Hillary?

Note to jury read his post all the way through.

[seabeyond]

469. you want to smack her? what a man... fuck. nt

[cali]

57. I think that meme is hollow as well, but the video of her light hearted comment

about Qadaffi? No. That I find disturbing.

It's simple and easy to label a horrible dictator a monster, but it often lacks context. I'd ask you this, would the people of Iraq and the larger region have been better off had we not toppled Saddam Hussein? If you answer yes, why is Libya with its disastrous aftermath, different? Sometime toppling a "monster" results in more death, war, destruction and human misery than restraint and other measures.

[oberliner]

64. Over 200 people killed in the Lockerbie bombing

Including a group of US college students returning from overseas.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. My only problem is if Khadafy was such a monster why did we try to co-opt and rehabilitate him./NT

[oberliner]

78. Politics is an ugly business

I'm just saying that he's a bad guy that is responsible for the deaths of many innocent people include Americans so I would think HRC's reaction to his death is fairly reasonable.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

92. Yeah, he's a bad guy...

It is ironic...He was our enemy for so many years, he forswears WMDs, makes nice with us, becomes our "ally" and then ends up getting killed by his own people.

[cali]

77. That is not a serious or appropriate response to my question

It is difficult to overstate just how much worse off Libya and the region is post-qadaffi. Yes, Lockerbie was a terrible crime and a tragedy, but do you throw a country into civil war and utter chaos decades later because of it?
And please, please don't see that it couldn't be foreseen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_2011_Libyan_Civil_War

Libya is now a failed state. Were there other options to deal with him? Many experts say so.

[oberliner]

82. See my response above

I was just trying to provide context in order to express my view that HRC's response to this vile man's death was appropriate.

I don't disagree with the larger points about Libya being worse off - I just was put off by the way you seemed to be responding to Hillary's reaction.

[reddread]

463. Orlando Bosch, Luis Posada Carriles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_Bosch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Posada_Carriles

lets take care of business.

[Agschmid]

70. I don't think anyone could honestly say they could predict what would have happened had

Saddam stayed in power.

Im not a Foriegn policy expert, so I certainly can't make that call.

[hrmjustin]

71. I don't.

[cali]

97. what? you think it's fair to condemn her for that picture?

[polly7]

253. Not all of us.

Last edited Sun May 24, 2015, 12:47 PM - Edit history (1)

The horror of Libya - to fulfill the PNAC objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.

It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.

Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why. The video at the end is particularly interesting.

The Untold Story in Libya
Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM
In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.

In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.

Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the world’s most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.

In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.

Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.

*************************************************************************************************

Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.

http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...

*************************************************************************************************

From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.

http://antemedius.com/content/libya-r2p-no...

"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.

That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."

"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."

*************************************************************************************************

"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...

*************************************************************************************************

NATO’s War on Libya is an Attack on African Development–Dan Glazebrook

6 09 2011

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /

To prevent this ‘threat of African development’, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how – militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new “command and control centre” for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafi’s revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the world’s biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.

*************************************************************************************************

The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the West’s vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libya’s petroleum laws. Gadhafi’s defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.

Libya: Here We Go Again

Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed

http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...

*************************************************************************************************

LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...

"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.

Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."

*************************************************************************************************

JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011

http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...

..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.

The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .

*************************************************************************************************

Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...

Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email

A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.

Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.

*************************************************************************************************

Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.

********* http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087 **********

http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-nato’s-“humanitarian-imperialism”-in-libya

In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.

<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times – the sacred temple for the ‘stenographers of power’ we call “journalists” – reported that Gaddafi was amassing “thousands of mercenaries” to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>

Italy’s Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as “credible.”<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be “peaceful protesters” who “are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.”<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that “thousands” of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, “and called for international intervention to protect civilians.”<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafi’s forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, “Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya,” with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>

As it turned out, these claims – as posterity notes – turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and “have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy,” and their investigations in Eastern Libya “have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafi’s forces.” Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is “deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape” in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, “there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas”; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, “told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.”<


Untrue, says US

US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.

"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8


US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...

UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.

Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.

While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.


*************************************************************************************************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:

The Untold Story in Libya:

How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising

http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /

The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...

*************************************************************************************************
Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and America’s Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot

Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad

.."The country was commended: “for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care.” There was “praise” for “cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption ..” and for cooperation with “the International Organization for Migration.”

“Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare” with “measures taken to promote transparency”, were also cited. Malaysia: “Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments.” Promotion: “of the rights of persons with disabilities” and praise for “measures taken with regard to low income families”, were cited...

.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nation’s destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : “a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations.” With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, “UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee.” (AJC.)"

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /

Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.



Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya

Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.

A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.

No Evidence? No Problem!!

How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change

One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.

Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafi’s government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.

"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr

A film by Julien Teil

Official Website:
http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr
Official web:
http://thehumanitarianwar.com
Official TV:
http://laguerrehumanitaire-film.rutube.ru/

Videos now here (I watched them on the original site when all of it was happening and posted these here at DU) http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm

Must watch videos, the western trained NTC 'Prime Minister' - 'word to ear!' was the source of the 'data (all unofficial and lies, of course) that led to the UN resolution.



*************************************************************************************************
What you don't know about the libyan crisis:

...

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi died after being stabbed with a bayonet in the anus and not in a firefight as originally claimed by Libyan authorities, according to a report on the Libyan dictator's last hours.

Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.

"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.


New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.

The charity obtained unedited mobile footage that showed militia fighters abusing Gaddafi as they took him into custody in October 2011.

"As he was being led on to the main road, a militiaman stabbed him in his anus with what appears to have been a bayonet, causing another rapidly bleeding wound," the report said.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224



The Grand Finale - sodomized with a stick, beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".

**************************************************************************************************

Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency

by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015

Last week’s drownings in the Mediterranean were the foreseeable, and indeed deliberate, a result of the anti-human policies of strategic violence by a dying neo-colonial empire. They were the consequence, firstly, of a series of wars of aggression that have made life intolerable across vast swathes of Africa and West Asia, and, secondly, of the fateful EU decision last November to end Italy’s search-and-rescue programme, Mare Nostrum. This much has been admitted by politicians and commentators from across the entire British political establishment, from Nigel Farage and the Daily Telegraph to David Cameron and Ed Miliband. Whilst these admissions have often been tempered with caveats, denials, distortions and half-truths, the hideous reality behind them is increasingly impossible to deny.

NATO’s war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the ‘revolutionaries’ and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATO’s shock troops – militias with names like the ‘Brigades for the purging of black skins’ – ‘ethnically cleansed’ the region. Last week’s butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATO’s ‘Libyan revolution’ (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, “a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him”.

And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libya’s borders. NATO’s war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libya’s arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, “We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die….Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.”

Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the world’s refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/

Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/

**************************************************************************************************

Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the West’s wars

By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015

Next week, the EU will launch work on its plan to tackle the Mediterranean migrant crisis. The EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini has asked the UN for help to dismantle the smuggling networks.

European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to “use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers’] vessels.

“Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died – a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014,” it continues.

Since 2011, Libya has been ripped apart, its social fabric torn asunder and its state structure largely absent. Nato’s bombardment precipitously destroyed the state and handed over the country to warring militias.

The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the West’s behavior in Libya.

Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/

Just as much a fucking sham as Iraq, with the exact same results.

[Agschmid]

262. I will read through later.

Not ignoring, just a bit busy.

[MicaelS]

334. Those people who like to sling around the term "War Criminal"..

Better be careful. The next thing that will happen is someone will be accusing President Obama of being a War Criminal, and claiming he should be tried in The Hague.

[wyldwolf]

60. I'm glad he's dead. I'm smiling gleefully with Hillary

"Storyville: Mad Dog – Gadhafi's Secret World,"

Source: BBC

Like other tyrants, Gaddafi used torture and murder to silence opposition, but what made his rule especially terrifying was that death came so casually. A man who complained that Gaddafi had an affair with his wife was allegedly tied between two cars and torn in half. On visits to schools and orphanages Gaddafi would tap underage girls on the head to show his henchmen which ones he wanted. They would be taken to his palace and abused. Young boys were held in tunnels under the palace.

Christopher Olgiati's film outlined Gaddafi's funding and coordinating of terrorist movements, the orchestrating of civil conflicts, the training of genocidal warlords, the ceaseless executions of enemies real and imagined. Amid the litany of violations against God and man and conscience, some details stood out. Idi Amin's prisoners having to choose between suffocation in their overstuffed cells or death by stepping into the electrified water outside. The hot pokers and dogs trained to bite to a maximally-painful depth in Abu Salim jail. The six-year-old with her lips cut off and left to bleed to death because she did not smile when Gaddafi thought she should.

Source: The Guardian

In 1994, the General People's Congress approved the introduction of "purification laws" to be put into effect, punishing theft by the amputation of limbs, and fornication and adultery by flogging.[85] Under the Libyan constitution, homosexual relations are punishable by up to five years in jail.

More?

I'm glad the motherfucker is dead. I celebrate it.

[Bonobo]

63. Like I said, some people are put together that way.

I'm not one of them.

Maybe that's the difference.

Viva la difference.

[cali]

65. I know you're not smiling over the aftermath and the simple fact that Libyans

on the whole, are much worse off than they were before he was killed, but that's part of the context in Libya, just like in Iraq.

[NYC Liberal]

68. I'm glad too.

Just like these folks were glad about another guy's death a while back...



Would they be condemned by DU for being "bloodthirsty"? Or is this outrage only happening because it's Hillary Clinton?

[neverforget]

133. the Hitler card and WW2. a mountain of difference considering

that was a declared war with 10s of millions dead. Qaddafi not so much.

[NYC Liberal]

155. We're not talking numbers. We're talking about the general principal of

being relieved when someone is dead.

[neverforget]

186. WW2 in Europe was at an end. The killing was going to stop

and the troops were going to come home (or be redeployed to the Pacific). An enemy we had been fighting for 3 years was defeated. It was more than celebrating the death of 1 person.

[NYC Liberal]

188. And you think this was just about one man?

No context, no consideration of what Qaddafi had done. Could have been any random guy; Hillary just loves seeing people die. Right.

[neverforget]

191. Did I say that at all? Good grief you're sensitive.

[NYC Liberal]

209. You tried to differentiate between celebrating Hitler's death and celebrating Qaddafi's

by saying it was a matter of context — as though there is no context to Qaddafi's death.

[neverforget]

295. As if celebrating the end of WW2 and the death of Qadaffi are equivalant.

Qadaffi being killed solved nothing other than our gratification that a man was killed.

[wyldwolf]

358. Celebrating the death of Hitler and Qadaffi are quite equivalent

[neverforget]

378. How so?

[wyldwolf]

384. both were mass killers

[neverforget]

427. So was Hussein. How did that work out for us?

[wyldwolf]

428. we're rid of a mass killer

[neverforget]

430. Did you support the invasion of Iraq?

[wyldwolf]

434. Do you prefer slaw on your hot dogs?

I actually preferred Al Gore's suggestion of sending special forces in to take out Saddam as opposed to a full invasion.

[neverforget]

437. Who's the next dictator we should take out?

[wyldwolf]

439. How about yellow mustard?

[neverforget]

440. who's the next mass killer we take out?

[wyldwolf]

442. should we have stopped the genocide in Rwanda?

[neverforget]

445. Don't like the questions do you? Who is the next mass killer we should take out

with our military? There are plenty out there, you should have one in mind.

[wyldwolf]

449. won't answer that one, will you? should we have stopped the genocide in Rwanda?

[neverforget]

452. why should i answer yours when you can't answer mine?

You're the one advocating military use to kill dictators.

[wyldwolf]

454. Post #434

[neverforget]

456. you're really tough with other people's blood.

I'll give you that

[wyldwolf]

458. you're still avoiding the question. I answered one of yours now answer mine.

[neverforget]

459. Give me the name of the next dictator that we need to kill

and I will answer your question.

[wyldwolf]

460. So you need TWO questions answered in exchange for answering ONE of mine?

I contend you would have been against stopping the genocide in Rwanda because leaders there likely would have been killed gleefully by US forces.

[neverforget]

461. I called you out on your war mongering and you suddenly can't answer the question

who's the next dictator we need to kill?

[neverforget]

465. so your new tact is to say I approve of genocide. Disgusting.

[wyldwolf]

468. Just as your tact is to say I'm a war monger. Disgusting.

And you STILL won't answer. Should we have intervened in Rwanda and killed the perps?

[eggplant]

482. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Sun May 24, 2015, 07:53 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

So you approve of the slaughter of close to 800,000 women and children?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6717890

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

accusing the poster of supporting genocide is beyond sick.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun May 24, 2015, 08:31 AM, and the Jury voted 4-3 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: REALLY childish banter. Too bad all of it couldn't be hidden. Since that's not possible, leave it alone.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: When rhetoric is outlawed, only outlaws will have rhetoric. Leave it.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Oh, FFS. This whole thread needs to be nuked from orbit. Hiding one stupid post just validates all of the other stupid posts here.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[neverforget]

614. Let's take a look at the possible military solutions to that problem

1) Put thousands of troops on the ground to separate the Hutus and Tusti. It would take weeks/months to get enough forces into Central Africa to stop the genocide
2} An air campaign to stop Hutus. Not as long getting troops on the ground but finding and using airfields to launch an air campaign would take weeks plus the overflight rights to Rwanda from aircraft carriers.

The genocide literally started overnight. By the time the US could have gotten any troops on the ground to stop them, it would have been over as the genocide lasted a little over 2 months. It takes time to plan such a mission because of logistics.

Having said that, we could have done more with the UN which was already on the ground to stop them. We could have done more, but militarily our options were limited due to time and distance.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/05/us/politics/in-africa-bill-clinton-works-to-leave-a-charitable-legacy.html?pagewanted=all

"I don't think we could have ended the violence, but I think we could have cut it down. And I regret it." Mr Clinton told CNN during one of his stops in Rwanda.

[hrmjustin]

69. I am not going to cry for hm.

[Bonobo]

86. It has zero to do with crying for him.

It has to do with seeing into a person. Gaining insight by watching how they behave.

It has to do with seeking to know who the person is that you may vote to be the leader of the world's most powerful military.

[hrmjustin]

89. Yeah and i see someone ready to be president.

[KMOD]

208. You openly admit that you smack people in the head.

That makes it difficult for me to value any insight you have.

[MaggieD]

110. Fringe Left

[Bonobo]

148. DINO.

Two can play that game.

[Exilednight]

446. Coming from the woman who made a post claiming that Hillary was just as liberal as Bernie

[MaggieD]

450. Link to that? LOL!

[karynnj]

415. It is posible to call it a classless not diplomatic comment, while still considering Gaddafi evil

No one is comparing Gaddafi to Clinton - and it would be disgusting if anyone were. I personally wish I never saw that tape, because it shows Hillary in a light that is not good. I would love to know if there is anything - even a huge amount of travel - that could explain why she didn't filter the glee she obviously felt.

[eridani]

537. I'm sure you are equally thrilled about the shithole full of squabbling warlords--

--that resulted from killing him. In the war of each against all, women lose every time.

[NYC Liberal]

543. Are you really sure about that?

[eridani]

550. Absolutely.

http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/28120-focus-neocons-the-anti-realists

But the chaos that followed Gaddafi’s death was not so funny, contributing to the killing of U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens and three other American diplomatic personnel in Benghazi on Sept. 11, 2012, and to the spreading of terrorism and violence across northern Africa. By July 2014, the U.S. and other Western nations had abandoned their embassies in Tripoli as all political order broke down.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/world/africa/in-libya-unrest-brings-oil-industry-to-standstill.html

Two years after local militias overthrew the Libyan dictator Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, many of those same fighters have brought Libya’s critical oil industry to a halt, as a challenge to the latest in a series of that country’s interim governments.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21638122-another-font-global-mayhem-emergingnot-helped-regional-meddling-and-western?fsrc=nlw|hig|9-01-2015|NA

Nowadays Libya is barely a country at all (see article). The factions that came together to fell Muammar Qaddafi have given up trying to settle their differences by negotiation. The east is under the control of a more or less secular alliance, based in Tobruk; in the west, a hotch-potch of groups in Tripoli and Misrata, once the symbol of heroic resistance to Qaddafi, hold sway, backed by hardline Islamist militias. Libya has two rival governments, two parliaments, two sets of competing claims to run the central bank and the national oil company, no functioning national police or army, and an array of militias that terrorise the country’s 6m citizens, plunder what remains of the country’s wealth, ruin what little is left of its infrastructure, and torture and kill wherever they are in the ascendancy.


http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/28629-hailed-as-a-model-for-successful-intervention-libya-proves-to-be-the-exact-opposite

Since 2011, Libya has rapidly unraveled in much the way Iraq did following that invasion: swamped by militia rule, factional warfare, economic devastation, and complete lawlessness. And to their eternal shame, most self-proclaimed “humanitarians” who advocated the Libya intervention completely ignored the country once the fun parts – the war victory dances and mocking of war opponents – were over. The feel-good “humanitarianism” of war advocates, as usual, extended only to the cheering from a safe distance as bombs dropped.

The unraveling of Libya is now close to absolute. Yesterday, the same New York Times editorial page that supported the intervention quoted the U.N.’s Libya envoy Bernardino León as observing: “Libya is falling apart. Politically, financially, the economic situation is disastrous.” The NYT editors forgot to mention that they supported the intervention, but did note that “Libya’s unraveling has received comparatively little attention over the past few months.” In other words, the very same NATO countries that dropped bombs on Libya in order to remove its government collectively ignored the aftermath once their self-celebrations were over.

[NYC Liberal]

560. Are you sure I'm thrilled about that, like you asserted?

[eridani]

623. If you aren't, then why are you definding it?

Jeebus H Keerist on a raft! Given that taking out Saddam Hussein destroyed Iraq, you couldn't figure out that taking out Qadaffi might do the same to Libya? Or that "regime change" in Syria might plunge the place into utter chaos?

How about this maxim from here on out? if you don't understand a country, DON'T FUCK WITH IT!!!

[uponit7771]

628. +1

[ileus]

83. you say you cannot now....but you will.

Mark my word.

[pampango]

94. The UN authorized intervention in Libya at the behest of France and the UK primarily

under the Responsibility to Protect civilians. The air attacks was undertaken by Europeans with American logistical support. This was not a rouge US-led military action as in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[sufrommich]

102. This will be overlooked. But yeah, we had little to do with the death

of Gaddafi,nor did we send Libya into civil war. Libya's civil war was home grown and had nothing to do with us.

[freshwest]

479. I stated that at the time. Obama was acting on a treaty obligation. Basic civics. n/t

[Ed Suspicious]

95. That's not terribly funny, Mrs. Clinton.

I don't find much humor in people's deaths. That's even the case for me when it comes to shitheels like Bin Laden, Hussein, or Qaddafi. People being killed is simply not that funny to me under any circumstances.

[NuclearDem]

101. Okey dokey lokey.

[aikoaiko]

104. Have you no sense of schadenfreude?

I'm ok with her laugh.

[MaggieD]

107. Was Bernie pro-Gaddafi?

I'm just curious.

In any case I share her joy. I'm going to take a wild guess and say the families of his victims did too. Especially the families of folks from the airplane his terrorists blew up. He was a brutal dictator that sponsored terrorism.

[sufrommich]

109. The back story for this clip was that she had just been told

off screen that he had been killed,the cameras were running but this is not part of the formal interview,it's just her talking to the reporter between takes. Between this kind of crap and those pushing the faux e-mail/Benghazi controversy here,DU has reached a new low.

[MaggieD]

111. A new low is right

[G_j]

121. That is far more telling than something said in a formal interview

So it's less disturbing because it wasn't part of the interview? Sorry..

[sufrommich]

128. You know what's really telling? The number of Sanders

backers on DU who are willing to paint Hillary Clinton as a crazed psychopath because she reacted positively to the death of Muammar Gaddafi.You run with that,I'm sure no one will think it's laughably tone deaf.

[cali]

132. Long before Sanders entered the race. I found much of Clinton's

foreign policy troubling. I actually agree with you that it's not entirely fair to judge her on an unguarded moment. And I hadn't realized this was such a moment. People can react strangely at the time of receiving momentous news. But beyond this one moment, I find her very- yes, very- hawkish and nationalistic stance, troubling. I'm unconvinced by her subsequent record and rhetoric, that she has learned anything from Iraq.

I'm not judging her on this one moment. It has nothing to do with my supporting Sanders. It's her record regarding military intervention and her rhetoric that I find disturbing.

[sufrommich]

263. I don't doubt your sincerity,I disagree with you but

I know you to be fair minded and above the silliness.

[cali]

279. I return your kind words. I feel the same about you. And I retract my

support for the op. It really is gotcha stuff. In the end, I think most of us, whoever we support, want much the same thing, both as regards domestic and foreign policy.

[sufrommich]

282. I agree.

[Agschmid]

595. +1

[G_j]

137. It has nothing to do with Sanders

I rarely make any comments whatsoever about Hillary. However, I was a conscientious objector during Vietnam, and have remained a life long peace activist to the present day. What I see with my own eyes disturbs me greatly. You want to defend the neocon world view, run with it. What the OP expresses is NOT a RW/GOP talking point, btw.

[Bonobo]

138. Makes it far worse in my opinion.

As I thought, it is a peek into the real person. A disturbing peek that people SHOULD pay close attention if they are the liberals they purport to be.

What they call a "new low" is in fact an honest, fair and unflinching look at reality.

[G_j]

169. so true

Personally, I want to know about a candidate's attitude regarding US militarism. I actually care.

[MaggieD]

184. Yes it is

Just like 99% of the world she is glad that muderous bastard is dead.

[G_j]

299. everyone is free to form their own opinion

some on the other hand, would prefer not to even discuss it........

[MoonRiver]

122. Yes right in the toilet with Fox "News" and Free Republic.

[Comrade Grumpy]

156. I'd say it was Hillary who reached a new low. Back story or no.

[still_one]

205. no surprise from me on that one

[Marr]

396. Are you fucking kidding me? It's ten times WORSE for being an off the cuff reaction.

Jesus.

[cali]

127. No one is pro-Gaddafi.

Bless your heart, Maggie. More truthiness.

First of all, many of us take no joy in extra-judicial executions, no matter who is killed. And you have a lot of hutzpa to speak for his victims.

Libya is now a failed state. And it is impacting the immediate region; Mali and Turkey in particular. The death and destruction in Libya is worse now than when Gaddafi was still running things. Yes, he was a brutal dictator. So was Hussein. That doesn't de facto mean that what came after was better for the people of either country. ISIS is making big inroads in Libya. Tribal warfare has run amok. Thousands are being killed. People are still being tortured. So many Libyans are fleeing that Europe, particularly Italy is suffering an immigration crisis from that alone.

[MaggieD]

134. We didn't kill him

His people did. You're not happy he's dead because Libya is fucked up? To each their own. I do not mourn the bastard. Socialism apparently has some strange bedfellows

[Bonobo]

144. Mourning him is not called for. Neither is giggling glee.

It's not what I nor many other Progressives want in someone that represents the face of America to the rest of the world.

[wyldwolf]

150. Glee is entirely appropriate

[darkangel218]

154. Do you support the death penalty?

Just curious.

[MaggieD]

171. I don't support it because it's a tool of racists

.... in this country. But do some people deserve to die? Absolutely. And this MF was at the top of the list.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

172. No, because it's premeditated...

No, because it's premeditated but I have no problem with spontaneous moral outrage and the concomitant rough justice that was served to people like Mussolini, Pablo Escobar, and Muammar Khadafy.

[Bonobo]

157. Ick. No, it really isn't.

Giggling glee over someone's death is not at all presidential --it's not even reflective of a decent human being.

[darkangel218]

160. Im not even sure if theyre serious, or just saying it only to defend their candidate

[wyldwolf]

164. I'm certain you're not serious and only saying this to oppose Hillary

[darkangel218]

170. You havent answered my question regarding dp.

[wyldwolf]

176. So?

[darkangel218]

178. So I'm waiting. Pro or against?

[wyldwolf]

185. Oh, I get it. Someone told you you're owed an answer for every question you ask..

... regardless of it's relevancy to the conversation.

For future reference: I don't follow people down paths away from the conversation. My teachers used to love how I stayed on task.

[darkangel218]

187. I think the question is actually pretty relevant to the topic.

I also know of someone else who prefers ambiguous answers over straight ones. Lol

Your choice.

[wyldwolf]

190. I don't

[darkangel218]

194. lol!!

Of course.

[wyldwolf]

195. lol!!

Of course.

[wyldwolf]

161. Yes, it really is.

[darkangel218]

151. +1

[MaggieD]

153. Glee is absolutely called for....

He was a muderous bastard. Libyans certainly were gleeful.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2011/oct/21/libya-the-death-of-gaddafi

[Bonobo]

158. Ick. You really think that's a good temperament for a POTUS? nt

[MaggieD]

166. I think it's a HUMAN temperament

It takes a special kind of fringe to be bummed about the death of Gaddafi

[MoonRiver]

168. You post a 30 second, at best, video, produced by the Heritage Foundation,

with no context, and think that DISQUALIFIES her for the presidency???
OMG

[darkangel218]

175. Getting to see someone's reactions is just a piece of the puzzle.

And we like transparency. Do you not?

[MoonRiver]

181. That 30 second sound bite has zero transparency.

Why don't one of you haters post the entire video.

[darkangel218]

183. Us haters??

MoonRiver
181. That 30 second sound bite has zero transparency.
Why don't one of you haters post the entire video.

[LWolf]

200. Of course not.

There is a massive chasm between opposing someone politically and laughing about, taking pleasure in, the death of that person.

There's a big difference even between deciding that the person should be taken down, taken out of power, and laughing gleefully about that person's death.

One is reason. The other is psychopathy: finding joy in killing people.

As for Sanders and Gaddafi? I don't find him having much to say about Gaddafi at all, except in reference to this:

WASHINGTON, March 31 – Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) today questioned why the Federal Reserve provided more than $26 billion in credit to an Arab intermediary for the Central Bank of Libya.

The total includes at least $3.2 billion in loans that the Fed was forced to make public today in addition to earlier revelations under a Sanders provision in the Wall Street reform law.

Sanders also asked why the Libyan-owned bank and two of its branches in New York, N.Y., were exempted from sanctions that the United States this month slapped on other Libyan businesses to pressure Col. Moammar Gadhafi’s government.

“It is incomprehensible to me that while creditworthy small businesses in Vermont and throughout the country could not receive affordable loans, the Federal Reserve was providing tens of billions of dollars in credit to a bank that is substantially owned by the Central Bank of Libya,” Sanders said.

http://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/release-why-did-the-fed-bail-out-the-bank-of-libya

More about the bailout he's referring to:

Barack Obama recently issued an executive order imposing a wave of sanctions against Libya, not only freezing Libyan assets, but barring Americans from having business dealings with Libyan banks.

So raise your hand if you knew that the United States has been extending billions of dollars in aid to Qaddafi and to the Central Bank of Libya, through a Libyan-owned subsidiary bank operating out of Bahrain. And raise your hand if you knew that, just a week or so after Obama’s executive order, the U.S. Treasury Department quietly issued an order exempting this and other Libyan-owned banks to continue operating without sanction.

I came across the curious case of the Arab Banking Corporation, better known as ABC, while researching a story about the results of the audit of the Federal Reserve. That story, which will be coming out in Rolling Stone in two weeks, will examine in detail some of the many lunacies uncovered by Senate investigators amid the recently-released list of bailout and emergency aid recipients – a list that includes many extremely shocking names, from foreign industrial competitors to hedge funds in tax-haven nations to various Wall Street figures of note (and some of their relatives). You will want to see this amazing list when it comes out, so please make sure to check the newsstands in two weeks’ time.

This list became public as a result of an amendment added to the Dodd-Frank financial reform bill that was sponsored by Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont. The amendment forced the Federal Reserve to open its books for the first time and make public the names of those individuals and corporations who received emergency loans and bailout monies during the roughly two year period between the crash of 2008 and the passage of the Dodd-Frank bill.

Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/why-is-the-fed-bailing-out-qaddafi-20110401#ixzz3ayfjOksj
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook

[darkangel218]

201. + 1 million!

[G_j]

307. "To be elate were to rejoice in the slaughter of human beings. And he who rejoices in the slaughter

of human beings is not fit to work his will in the Empire."

"He enters a battle gravely,
with sorrow and with great compassion,
as if he were attending a funeral."

Lao Tzu

[LWolf]

497. Yes.

This quote makes the point.

On another topic...

I just noted your sigline. Do you know where SR is, if he is okay?

[G_j]

624. no, I don't know

I've seen some discussion at times here, people wondering the same thing. I haven't seen any answers. The last conversations I had here with SR were during the BP oil spill. I know SR was directly effected by the spill somehow, and was very upset that so many here were defending the government's lame response We watched in horror as the dispersants were spread into the waters. SR seemed pretty devastated by it all. I have no idea if that is related to their absence here. SR was one of DU's best.

[LWolf]

634. .

I hope he's okay.

[Paladin]

139. She could walk on water, and you Hillary Haters would squeal that she can't swim. (nt)

[Bonobo]

141. The reaction speaks for itself. No embellishment or hyperbole from you changes what is there. nt

[MoonRiver]

143. Free Republic sends you their regards.

[Bonobo]

146. No, I don't think they do. But I think they may agree with you about this gung-ho bullshit

that shames us as a nation.

[MaggieD]

162. 99% of people would agree

Here AND in Libya.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2011/oct/21/libya-the-death-of-gaddafi

[MoonRiver]

173. They support your crazed hate against the Democratic frontrunner.

If Bernie were in that position, I can guarantee you they would come up with a 30 second sound bite which could be spun against him.

[Maedhros]

655. There is no substantive difference between this,

and "Bring 'em on!" as uttered by Bush.

Bloodthirsty bravado either way.

[Buzz Clik]

147. I am hopeful that this video and the accompanying comments...

... are posted weekly. They have been thus far, so keep up the good work. OCD is so underrated.

[MaggieD]

179. That would be lovely....

It really showcases the beliefs of the fringe, IMO.

[PowerToThePeople]

229. who is fringe?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026592890

Looks to me that HRC supporters are fringe.

[MaggieD]

234. Not in the real world

You know, that place where elections happen.

[PowerToThePeople]

237. In the world around me

Bernie has large support, darn near 100% of the left leaning people I know. No one supports HRC.

[MaggieD]

248. Maybe you live in a bubble

The polls show most of us do not.

[PowerToThePeople]

250. Maybe you do.

Polls, by who? Who are they polling? How do get get their lists? Sorry, your polls do not say what you think they say.

[MaggieD]

259. So if the polls show....

That you're in the minority in the real world, the polls are all just wrong? Every one of them?

Yeah, okay. Whatever it takes to get you through the night.

[TheKentuckian]

654. Popularity of an idea is not an indicator of the correctness of the idea. Polls don't determine

right and wrong.

We have further destabilized and impoverished the majority of the people in that nation and made the entire region more of a clusterfuck, that wasn't the best practice.

You folks are copying straight out of the Bushbot handbook on this one, focus on how bad the boogieman was to justify completely dangerous actions that have proved destructive as can be and a disease far worse than the one we claim to be curing.

You guys just stole the Saddam Lover nonsense and inserted a new name.

Strange how some people copy the radical regressive in aims, deed, and words all the damn time as long as they do so while circling the wagons around a Democrat on the same shitty agenda sometimes going so fast around that they reverse the planet like fucking Superman to make what the TeaPubliKlan did fine and dandy too.
Hell, just in this thread posters are whitewashing wicked Kissinger and even the Iraq War (at least we took out Hussein, you wish he was still in charge?).

[reddread]

669. never mind the dead, the survivors, the refugees, back the electable supporter of mass murder

thanks for putting it succinctly.
saddam lover.
putinista.
muammar supporter.

these words come from people who despise their fellow Americans.
they truly hate our freedom.

[Buzz Clik]

297. "Showcasing the beliefs of the fringe" is kinda the point of this thread.

[Agschmid]

227. How is that a productive use of time/effort?

[frogmarch]

152. I like Hillary and Bernie equally well, and

it really irks me to come here and see posts bashing either of them. Whichever one of them becomes the Democratic candidate likely will have fewer votes than they might have had if DU weren’t available for everyone everywhere to read, whether or not they’re DUers. Dems eating their own is ugly, and it could influence the outcome of the Presidential election, giving the GOP a boost.

I watch lots of crime documentaries, and more often than not, parents and friends of murder victims smile when talking about the gruesome deaths of their loved ones. Smiling doesn’t mean shit.

[OldHippieChick]

182. Couldn't agree more

For those refusing to vote Hillary if she gets the nomation, I hope they enjoy the next generation of a far right Supreme Court

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

197. USA! USA! Goooooo Team! All she needs is the pom-poms and flag.

[wyldwolf]

207. Jun-05-04: DU 'Progressives' gleefully dance on Ronald Reagan's grave

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1726149

May-23-15: DU 'Progressives' condemn someone's glee over the death of Qaddafi

It's all about Hillary.

[MaggieD]

217. Nice blast from the past

[darkangel218]

218. I never agreed with that either.

I don't find joy in people dying.

[Agschmid]

232. As a Bernie supporter this is a foolish line of attack.

[wyldwolf]

239. Which?

Attacking Hillary for being glad a brutal dictator is dead or comparing that to 'progressives' being happy a US president is dead?

[Agschmid]

242. Attacking Hillary.

If I'm going to support my candidate I'm going o do it without tearing yours down.

It's the right thing to do, and I think we are on the same page here.

[Man from Pickens]

210. Gleefully laughing about assassinating a foreign leader and throwing the country into chaos

I think Dick Cheney did that, didn't he? See - Hillary is no worse than Cheney is and she's NOT a Republican. Honest.

[MaggieD]

214. A "foreign leader" ???

Is that the new extreme left's euphemism for murderous brutal dictator?

[darkangel218]

240. He was a murderous dictator, but also a "foreign leader".

You can't say he was not.
And the country has gone to the dogs after him.
The OP was not about politics, however. It was about a possible Presidential candidate who gleed at someone dying.
You have to keep in mind that many of us don't support the death penalty, don't like wars and death, and we would never smile or laugh if someone died.
I think what the OP was trying to say is that we need a POTUS who doesn't show such callous feelings.

[MaggieD]

245. Yes I can say he was not

Brutal dictators don't "lead" anyone. They dictate. And if they need to murder to do it, that's what they do.

[darkangel218]

252. That was not the essence of my post. Did you bother to read the rest?

[MaggieD]

255. But it IS the truth

[darkangel218]

257. Did you ignore the rest of my post?

[MaggieD]

260. Yes. Everything after....

Gaddafi was a foreign "leader." Foolish premise.

[darkangel218]

265. Every dictator was technically still a "foreign leader"!!!

And ignoring the rest of the post is just silly. But thats how you roll I guess.

Enough said

[MaggieD]

273. Technically? LOL!

Okay then.

[darkangel218]

292. YES. In what terms do you want to speak, if not literal/technical??

I'm trying to be fair and understand you.

Let me know if we're speaking in paraboles so I can adjust accordingly.

[wyldwolf]

275. There Is A Difference Between Leadership and Dictatorship

[wyldwolf]

305. A dictator is not a leader

A leader isn't something someone can make or declare themselves. A leader earns that role from those he or she leads.

* A dictator takes power by force.

* A leader has his peoples’ best interests at heart, a dictator has his own interests at heart.

* A leader corrects injustices, a dictator commits and encourages injustices.

* A leader protects the weak and helpless, a dictator oppresses the weak and helpless.

* A leader unites the people, a dictator creates division and polarizes the people.

* Leaders advance and develop their countries, dictators setback and destroy their countries.

* When people are hurting, leaders share the peoples’ grief, dictators hurt and grieve their own people.

* Leaders are loved because they don’t instill fear in their people, dictators are hated because they instill fear in their people.

* Leaders comfort the oppressed, dictators oppress the comfortable.

* Leaders are trusted by their people, dictators betray the trust of their people.

* Leaders abide by the Law of the land, dictators are the Law of the land.

* It takes a leader to notice another leader, it takes a dictator to destroy a leader.

* Leaders will always be remembered for the problems they solved, dictators will always be remembered for the problems they created.

[darkangel218]

311. That "dictator" which was a foreign leader, was still a human beign.

That was the point of the OP.
As a potential President, you don't glee at people dying. Good or bad.
We should be above that.

[wyldwolf]

355. That dictator who was no leader deserved what he got.

[MaggieD]

325. Exactly

[Man from Pickens]

304. I copied its use

from Hillary's State Department briefings on Libya, while the deceased in question was still a valued US ally in the "Global War on Terror".

[2banon]

316. extreme left? LOL!

[MaggieD]

321. Yes, leave it to the extreme left....

.... To pretend we should mourn the death of a muderous dictator. That is fringe all the way.

I once met a certified fringe leftist that excoriated Clinton for bombing in Bosnia. I said, oh, so you're pro genocide? And then crickets.

[hrmjustin]

216. I will light a candle for Gaddafi.

[MaggieD]

220. LOL!

[hrmjustin]

222. I am grieved.

[MaggieD]

231. Maybe we can arrange a memorial for him

Lot's of DUers seem to need a better outlet for their grief over his passing.

[hrmjustin]

235. Well i can think of a few rooms but i will shut up now.

[polly7]

261. Maybe while you're at it you can make a memorial for all the men, women and

children who either supported him or were migrants who'd lived peacefully in Libya and were raped, tortured, burned alive and hung by the friendly 'rebels' whose leaders were trained by the west, as well as those killed by the 'humanitarian bombs'.

Better make it a big one and leave some space - Libya is a horror now with more being killed, kidnapped, raped and tortured, But who takes names, right? Just Gaddafi - like it was just Hussein for the right-wingers who justified the horror in Iraq.

[MaggieD]

272. It was a horror before too

I will not mourn the fact that there is one less muderous bastard in the world.

[polly7]

281. Hey, that's 'exactly' how they also justified Iraq! A two'fer, good for you! nt.

[MaggieD]

302. We did not kill him or start a war

All we did was stop propping up a brutal dictator. Therefore we don't have to justify a thing.

Glad the bastard is dead.

[polly7]

303. LMAO.

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 03:52 PM - Edit history (2)

Bullshit.

Two Nato missiles forced the group to leave the cars and escape on foot, seeking shelter in a drainage ditch. A bodyguard hurled grenades at approaching militiamen but one grenade "hit the concrete wall and bounced back to fall between Muammar Gaddafi and Abu Bakr Younis", Younis junior said.

"The shrapnel hit my father and he fell down to the ground. Muammar Gaddafi was also injured by the grenade, on the left side of his head," he said.

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi died after being stabbed with a bayonet in the anus and not in a firefight as originally claimed by Libyan authorities, according to a report on the Libyan dictator's last hours.

New York-based Human Rights Watch said Gaddafi was already bleeding from head wounds caused by blast shrapnel as he tried to flee Sirte, his hometown.

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/gaddafi-killed-bayonet-stab-anus-libya-395224

Oh I know ...... he deserved to die like this - I was told this over and over when it happened, there were even funny little comics about it - and many had a great time LOL'ing. The thing is, watching it live, I had to go to the bathroom and throw up.

[hrmjustin]

280. Don't forget the men, women, and children Gaddafi killed.

[polly7]

283. Replied to above.

But 'don't forget' all the horrors I mentioned, which are not even the half of it.

Like I said - make it a big memorial and leave lots of room.

[hrmjustin]

286. Yes. i won't shed a tear for him but i would for the people of Libya.

[polly7]

289. 'For him'!

Still not a mention of a single human being harmed in horrible ways by this sham or yet another nation destroyed. It's deja vu though - substitute Hussein for Gaddafi and no one could tell the difference of what we're talking about.

[hrmjustin]

291. huh?

[polly7]

293. LOL. nt.

[hrmjustin]

294. Not meant to be funny, i didn't understand your meaning.

[polly7]

300. Sorry, I can't make it any simpler.

Right-wingers justified the horror of Iraq because of 'Hussein'. People who didn't bother to learn about the lies for the 'humanitarian intervention' in Libya and the many, many horrors it created then and now, justify it because of 'Gaddafi'. No mention of all those harmed, murdered, tortured - it's just because 'Gaddafi' was a bad man. His torture, sodomy with a stick and murder in the street - Hussein's public hanging - case closed for both of their countries - it was all good. They were just the ones that had to go in order to fulfill the real reasons for getting in.

PNAC's objective of overthrowing yet another country. "7 countries in 5 years!" This was NO "Humanitarian Intervention", and certainly not for all those migrants Qaddafi had allowed in over decades, Qaddafi loyalists and others who were raped, tortured, mutilated, hung, burned to death .... all known of by the NATO 'humanitarian team'.

It was a bullshit, self-serving, western funded and backed coup against yet another sovereign nation not yet indebted to the IMF and controlling its own resources, not to mention not allowing U.S. bases 'Africom' into all of Africa.

Some of these links don't work anymore, but read and discover just what a sham this was and why. The video at the end is particularly interesting.

The Untold Story in Libya
Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Tue Oct 18th 2011, 10:06 AM
In May 2010, Libya was voted on to the UN Human Rights Council by a huge majority. The UN Watch's campaign to remove Libya from the Human Rights Council began immediately.

In March, 2011, a report, containing positive quotes from UN diplomatic delegations in many countries, was due to be presented by the UN Human Rights Council, leading to a Resolution commending Libya's progress in a wide aspect of human rights (listed in the article). March 19, 2011, the attack on Libya began.

Libya was one of only five countries without a Rothschild model central bank, Quaddafi openly discussed, in 2009, the nationalization of US, UK, Germany, Spain, Norway, Canada and Italy's oil companies, switching to the gold dinar - a single African currency that would serve as an alternative to the U.S. dollar and allow African nations to share the wealth. Libya has an abundance of water - Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project project offers limitless amounts of water for Libyans and would allow them to be totally self-sufficient. In the near-future, water will be the next resource equated with money and power, other countries may be dependent on its reserves. A self-sufficient, dictator-ruled nation with control over some of the world’s most precious resource waves a big red warning flag.

In 2010 Gaddafi made a motion to the UN General Assembly to investigate the circumstances of the invasion of Iraq. He was also wasting the west's ....... 'libya's' oil on free education, housing, tolerance of immigrants, raising the standard of living in Africa, lowering infant mortality while raising life expectancy.

Many of these things are completely similar to what we learned of Iraq.

*************************************************************************************************

Yes, simply put, Nato's member nations are trying to steer back Libya Central Bank into the mainstream financial structure, under the watching eyes of the World Bank and the International Monetary Funds, to provide (reconstruction) funds to Libya with hefty interests payments - and transform a country which was free of debts into a heavily indebted country - as done everywhere else in sub-Saharan African countries.

http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/graphs...
http://businessafrica.net/africabiz/arcvol...

*************************************************************************************************

From a 'no fly zone to all out bombing of targets called out by rebels'. NATO's high-precision bombing preceeded 'rebel' incursions.

http://antemedius.com/content/libya-r2p-no...

"It's now common knowledge that British SAS, French intelligence, US Central Intelligence Agency assets, Qatar special forces and mercenaries of all stripes were parachuted as boots on the ground for months, planning and training the "rebels" and in close coordination with that philanthropic prodigy, NATO.

That was never the UN mandate - but who cares? NATO/GCC paid the bills, NATO conducted the bombing and NATO/GCC will "stabilize" the mess, according to a 70-page plan leaked by the British to Rupert Murdoch'sz Times of London."

"Expect local - and global - fireworks as far as grabbing the loot is concerned. Without even considering the (still unexplored) oil and gas wealth, Libya's foreign assets are worth at least $150 billion. Libya's central bank, now about to be privatized, has no less than 143.8 tons of gold. Then there's at least a millennium supply of fresh water, which had started to be harnessed by Gaddafi via the spectacular, multibillion dollar Great Man-Made River (GMR) project."

*************************************************************************************************

"Oil-rich but with a relatively small population of 6.6. million, Gadhafi's Libya welcomed hundreds of thousands of black Africans looking for work in recent decades. "

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/01/l...

*************************************************************************************************

NATO’s War on Libya is an Attack on African Development–Dan Glazebrook

6 09 2011

http://globalciviliansforpeace.com/tag/afr... /

To prevent this ‘threat of African development’, the Europeans and the USA have responded in the only way they know how – militarily. Four years ago, the US set up a new “command and control centre” for the military subjugation of the Africa, called AFRICOM. The problem for the US was that no African country wanted to host them; indeed, until very recently, Africa was unique in being the only continent in the world without a US military base. And this fact is in no small part, thanks to the efforts of the Libyan government.
Before Gaddafi’s revolution deposed the British-backed King Idris in 1969, Libya had hosted one of the world’s biggest US airbases, the Wheelus Air Base; but within a year of the revolution, it had been closed down and all foreign military personnel expelled.
More recently, Gaddafi had been actively working to scupper AFRICOM. African governments that were offered money by the US to host a base were typically offered double by Gaddafi to refuse it, and in 2008 this ad-hoc opposition crystallised into a formal rejection of AFRICOM by the African Union.

*************************************************************************************************

The force used by the occupier to displace the old regime always makes sure the new regime is supine and complaint. The National Transitional Council, made up of former Gadhafi loyalists, Islamists and tribal leaders, many of whom detest each other, will be the West’s vehicle for the reconfiguration of Libya. Libya will return to being the colony it was before Gadhafi and the other young officers in 1969 ousted King Idris, who among other concessions had let Standard Oil write Libya’s petroleum laws. Gadhafi’s defiance of Western commercial interests, which saw the nationalization of foreign banks and foreign companies, along with the oil industry, as well as the closure of U.S. and British air bases, will be reversed. The despotic and collapsed or collapsing regimes in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Syria once found their revolutionary legitimacy in the pan-Arabism of Egypt’s Gamal Abdel Nasser. But these regimes fell victim to their own corruption, decay and brutality. None were worth defending. Their disintegration, however, heralds a return of the corporate and imperial power that spawned figures like Nasser and will spawn his radical 21st century counterparts.

Libya: Here We Go Again

Monday 5 September 2011
by: Chris Hedges, Truthdig | Op-Ed

http://www.truthout.com/libya-here-we-go-a...

*************************************************************************************************

LIBYA: Rebels execute black immigrants while forces kidnap others

http://somalilandpress.com/libya-rebels-ex...

"Many Africans have virtually nothing after years in Libya, many have been looted, robbed, while others saw their living quarters and apartments go in flames. Now they are praying to God to send them home.
While the international leaders are busy drafting resolutions to dismantle Muammar Gaddafi, the African Union has not yet commented on the situation in Libya.

Meanwhile, the International Criminal Court is said to have started a formal inquiry into possible crimes against humanity in Libya that will investigate the Libyan regime."

*************************************************************************************************

JohnPilger.com
8 September 2011

http://johnpilger.com/articles/hail-to-the...

..."I quote that not so much for its Orwellian quality but as a model of journalism's role in justifying "our" bloodbaths in advance.
This is Rupert's Revolution, after all. Gone from the Murdoch press are pejorative "insurgents". The action in Libya, says The Times, is "a revolution... as revolutions used to be". That it is a coup by a gang of Muammar Gaddafi's ex cronies and spooks in collusion with Nato is hardly news.

The self-appointed "rebel leader", Mustafa Abdul Jalil, was Gaddafi's feared justice minister. The CIA runs or bankrolls most of the rest, including America's old friends, the Mujadeen Islamists who spawned al-Qaeda.
They told journalists what they needed to know: that Gaddafi was about to commit "genocide", of which there was no evidence, unlike the abundant evidence of "rebel" massacres of black African workers falsely accused of being mercenaries. European bankers' secret transfer of the Central Bank of Libya from Tripoli to "rebel" Benghazi by European bankers in order to control the country's oil billions was an epic heist of little .

*************************************************************************************************

Sirte a 'living hell,' says aid group

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/co...

Tuesday 04 October 2011 by Our Foreign Desk Printable Email

A Red Cross team finally entered the besieged Libyan town of Sirte yesterday and delivered urgently needed surgical supplies to treat about 200 wounded people.

Nato has repeatedly targeted Sirte in its seven-month bombing campaign that enabled armed rebels to topple the government of Muammar Gadaffi and gain control of most of the oil-rich state.

*************************************************************************************************

Absolutely horrible to use rape as a propaganda weapon for war, while ignoring the reality of it for all those brutalized, raped and some, murdered by the NATO supported 'rebels' - just one example of their many atrocities.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2174087

http://andrewgavinmarshall.com/2011/08/26/lies-war-and-empire-nato’s-“humanitarian-imperialism”-in-libya

In early March of 2011, news headlines in Western nations reported that Gaddafi would kill half a million people.

<1> On March 18, as the UN agreed to launch air strikes on Libya, it was reported that Gaddafi had begun an assault against the rebel-held town of Benghazi. The Daily Mail reported that Gaddafi had threatened to send in his African mercenaries to crush the rebellion.<2> Reports of Libyan government tanks sitting outside Benghazi poised for an invasion were propagated in the Western media.<3> In the lead-up to the United Nations imposing a no-fly zone, reports spread rapidly through the media of Libyan government jets bombing the rebels.<4> Even in February, the New York Times – the sacred temple for the ‘stenographers of power’ we call “journalists” – reported that Gaddafi was amassing “thousands of mercenaries” to defend Tripoli and crush the rebels.<5>

Italy’s Foreign Minister declared that over 1,000 people were killed in the fighting in February, citing the number as “credible.”<6> Even a top official with Human Rights Watch declared the rebels to be “peaceful protesters” who “are nice, sincere people who want a better future for Libya.”<7> The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights declared that “thousands” of people were likely killed by Gaddafi, “and called for international intervention to protect civilians.”<8> In April, reports spread near and far at lightning speed of Gaddafi’s forces using rape as a weapon of war, with the first sentence in a Daily Mail article declaring, “Children as young as eight are being raped in front of their families by Gaddafi’s forces in Libya,” with Gaddafi handing out Viagra to his troops in a planned and organized effort to promote rape.<9>

As it turned out, these claims – as posterity notes – turned out to be largely false and contrived. Doctors Without Borders and Amnesty International both investigated the claims of rape, and “have found no first-hand evidence in Libya that rapes are systematic and being used as part of war strategy,” and their investigations in Eastern Libya “have not turned up significant hard evidence supporting allegations of rapes by Qaddafi’s forces.” Yet, just as these reports came out, Hillary Clinton declared that the U.S. is “deeply concerned by reports of wide-scale rape” in Libya.<10> Even U.S. military and intelligence officials had to admit that, “there is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas”; at the same time Susan Rice, U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, “told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti-impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.”<


Untrue, says US

US says Gadhafi troops issued Viagra, raping victims
Allegation suggests troops encouraged to turn to sexual violence, envoys say

By Louis Charbonneau
updated 4/28/2011 9:31:26 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — The U.S. envoy to the United Nations told the Security Council Thursday that troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi were increasingly engaging in sexual violence and some had been issued the impotency drug Viagra, diplomats said.

Several U.N. diplomats who attended a closed-door Security Council meeting on Libya told Reuters that U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice raised the Viagra issue in the context of increasing reports of sexual violence by Gadhafi's troops.

"Rice raised that in the meeting but no one responded," a diplomat said on condition of anonymity. The allegation was first reported by a British newspaper.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42809612/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa#.TqXeG96ImU8


US intel: No evidence of Viagra as weapon in Libya

http://www.msnbc .msn.com/id/42824884/ns/world_news-mide...

UN Ambassador Rice reportedly had said drug was being used in systematic rapes
NBC News and news services updated 4/29/2011 1:52:00 PM ET

UNITED NATIONS — There is no evidence that Libyan military forces are being given Viagra and engaging in systematic rape against women in rebel areas, US military and intelligence officials told NBC News on Friday.

Diplomats said Thursday that US Ambassador Susan Rice told a closed-door meeting of officials at the UN that the Libyan military is using rape as a weapon in the war with the rebels and some had been issued the anti- impotency drug. She reportedly offered no evidence to backup the claim.

While rape has been a weapon of choice in many other African conflicts, the US officials say they've seen no such reports out of Libya.


*************************************************************************************************

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...
bvar22:

The Untold Story in Libya:

How The West Cooked Up The People's Uprising

http://whowhatwhy.com/2011/08/31/now-that-... ... /

The Global Disaster Capitalists never let a good disaster go to waste.
In the case of Libya, they used their Enforcement Arm (NATO & The US Military) to CREATE a disaster where there was none.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/M...

*************************************************************************************************
Libya: Oil, Banks, Water, the United Nations, and America’s Holy Crusade by Felicity Arbuthnot

Posted on April 5, 2011 by dandelionsalad

.."The country was commended: “for the progress made in the achievement of the Millennium Development Goals, namely universal primary education (and) firm commitment (to) health care.” There was “praise” for “cooperation with international organizations in combating human trafficking and corruption ..” and for cooperation with “the International Organization for Migration.”

“Progress in enjoyment of economic and social rights, including in the areas of education, health care, poverty reduction and social welfare” with “measures taken to promote transparency”, were also cited. Malaysia: “Commended the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for being party to a significant number of international and regional human rights instruments.” Promotion: “of the rights of persons with disabilities” and praise for “measures taken with regard to low income families”, were cited...

.."So how does the all tie together? Libya, in March being praised by the Majority of the UN., for human rights progress across the board, to being the latest, bombarded international pariah? A nation’s destruction enshrined in a UN., Resolution?
The answer lies in part with the Geneva based UN Watch.(vii) UN Watch is : “a non-governmental organization whose mandate is to monitor the performance of the United Nations.” With Consultative Status to the UN Economic and Social Council, with ties to the UN Department of Public Information, “UN Watch is affiliated with the American Jewish Committee.” (AJC.)"

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/2011/0... /

Interesting ..... the involvement in HR Watch of persons whose core values include securing energy resources.



And I think we're going to be shocked and disgusted as more and more information comes out.

Check this out - 'The Humanitarian War' = http://www.laguerrehumanitaire.fr/english It's horrifying.

A bunch of LIES submitted to the ICC ..... by the UN - who got their 'numbers and crimes' from the NTC Prime Minister - 'word to ear'. Pages and pages redacted.

No Evidence? No Problem!!

Exposed: The "Humanitarian" War In Libya

Must Watch Video

How the CIA Used "Libyan Expatriates" To Engineer Consent For Regime Change

One of the main sources for the claim that Qaddafi was killing his own people is the Libyan League for Human Rights (LLHR), an organization linked to the International Federation of Human Rights (FIDH). On Feb. 21, 2011, LLHR General Secretary Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir initiated a petition in collaboration with the organization U.N. Watch and the National Endowment for Democracy. This petition was signed by more than 70 NGOs.

Then a few days later, on Feb. 25, Dr. Bouchuiguir went to the U.N. Human Rights Council in order to expose the allegations concerning the crimes of Qaddafi’s government. In July 2011 we went to Geneva to interview Dr. Sliman Bouchuiguir.

"How to circumvent international law and justice 101." - originally published by http://laguerrehumanitaire.fr

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29428.htm


*************************************************************************************************
What you don't know about the libyan crisis:

...


The Grand Finale - sodomized with a stick, beaten, tortured and murdered in the street - "We came, we saw ....... he died, lol".

**************************************************************************************************

Britain, Libya and the Mediterranean - The Creation of a Humanitarian Emergency

by Dan Glazebrook / May 1st, 2015

Last week’s drownings in the Mediterranean were the foreseeable, and indeed deliberate, a result of the anti-human policies of strategic violence by a dying neo-colonial empire. They were the consequence, firstly, of a series of wars of aggression that have made life intolerable across vast swathes of Africa and West Asia, and, secondly, of the fateful EU decision last November to end Italy’s search-and-rescue programme, Mare Nostrum. This much has been admitted by politicians and commentators from across the entire British political establishment, from Nigel Farage and the Daily Telegraph to David Cameron and Ed Miliband. Whilst these admissions have often been tempered with caveats, denials, distortions and half-truths, the hideous reality behind them is increasingly impossible to deny.

NATO’s war of aggression against Libya in 2011 turned the country over to racist death squads, with hundreds of sub-Saharan migrant workers and black Libyans beaten and burnt to death by the ‘revolutionaries’ and tens of thousands illegally detained and tortured by the militias. Tawergha, the only black African town on the Mediterranean, and formerly home to around 30,000 people, is now a ghost town after NATO’s shock troops – militias with names like the ‘Brigades for the purging of black skins’ – ‘ethnically cleansed’ the region. Last week’s butchering of 30 Ethiopian workers by ISIS is but the latest chapter in the anti-African pogroms that have characterised the Libyan insurgency from the very start. This is the reality of NATO’s ‘Libyan revolution’ (led by AbdulHakim BelHaj, now leader of ISIS in Libya) and it is precisely this from which black Africans in Libya are now fleeing. As Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi put it, “a person has to risk his life because he needs to escape from a situation where they are chopping off the heads of those near him”.

And this head-chopping has not been restricted to Libya’s borders. NATO’s war has boosted head-choppers across the entire region, from Tunisia and Algeria to Mali, Nigeria and Cameroon. Before 2011, Boko Haram barely existed. Today, thanks to NATO opening up Libya’s arsenals to them and their friends, they are killing hundreds every week, often burning them alive in churches and mosques. As one Nigerian told a reporter last week, “We prefer to die trying (to migrate) than stay back there and die….Stay at home and get shot dead or maybe burnt to death; I just prefer to die while trying or survive.”

Yet the Libyan war itself is only the latest in a long series of acts of aggression launched by the British state and its allies, all of which continue to have disastrous consequences across the entire Middle East and North Africa region. A look at the list of where the migrants come from makes this devastatingly clear. The majority of the world’s refugees come from one of three countries: Afghanistan, Somalia and Syria. What all have in common is that they have all been subject to vicious terror campaigns by Britain, the USA and their allies: whether directly, as in Afghanistan; through allied states, as with the US-backed Ethiopian invasion of Somalia in 2006 (which toppled the first stable government the country had had in decades); or through the provision of cash, weapons and diplomatic cover to sectarian death squads, as in the case of Syria. Yemen is the latest additional source of refugees, with the Saudi bombing campaign bringing new arrivals to almost 10,000 per week.

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/05/britain-libya-and-the-mediterranean/

Behind Every Refugee Stands an Arms Trader

http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/04/behind-every-refugee-stands-an-arms-trader/

**************************************************************************************************

Trapped in Libya: the flotsam of the West’s wars

By Vijay Prashad
Source: al-Araby
May 14, 2015

Next week, the EU will launch work on its plan to tackle the Mediterranean migrant crisis. The EU foreign policy chief Federica Mogherini has asked the UN for help to dismantle the smuggling networks.

European ambassadors have drafted a UN resolution, under chapter VII (which allows use of force), to tackle the crisis. For them the military option is the brightest light. As Mogherini said, the EU wants the authority to “use all necessary means to seize and dispose of the [smugglers’] vessels.

“Thus far in 2015, over 60,000 people have tried to cross from Libya to Europe. Of them, close to two thousand have died – a death toll 20 times higher than in 2014,” it continues.

Since 2011, Libya has been ripped apart, its social fabric torn asunder and its state structure largely absent. Nato’s bombardment precipitously destroyed the state and handed over the country to warring militias.

The threat to the refugees is a direct outcome of UN Security Council Resolution 1973, ironically under the Responsibility to Protect (R2P) banner. A new UNSC resolution is not going to be about the protection of the refugees, but to use force to destroy their lifeline. R2P has been ground under by the West’s behavior in Libya.

Full article: https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/trapped-in-libya-the-flotsam-of-the-wests-wars/

Just as much a fucking sham as Iraq, with the exact same results.

[hrmjustin]

309. Thank you for your post.

It was and is a mess and Gaddafi bares responsibility for that.

[polly7]

313. Gaddafi had nothing to do with the 'humanitarian intervention' that destroyed Libya,

Last edited Sat May 23, 2015, 04:35 PM - Edit history (1)

just as Hussein didn't wrt Iraq. It could have been Mother Theresa in charge and there would have been some trumped up reason to get in. Thank goodness for Gaddafi, though eh? It would be laughable if it weren't so fucking sad that the destruction of millions and their futures, infrastructure, etc. for western imperialism is solely because of the leaders - whether we hated them or not, it doesn't even matter. They were just the obstacle to getting in and opening up both countries for the real reasons, as I pointed out.

Hussein! Gaddafi! Of course there has to be a bogeyman for every western intervention - how else to sell the horrors?

[hrmjustin]

314. Are you suggesting he was a good man?

[polly7]

318. Oh give it a rest.

I was asked the same shit about Hussein and even told I wanted his baby! Still ....... nothing.

The same right-wing shit we heard about Iraq, word for word.

And yet not one single thought for the destruction and suffering .......... because they were both so successful! - to the MIC, arms dealers, multinational coporations, World Bank and in establishing foreign bases from which to do it all over again to someone else.

Sorry, I hate war - especially needless war to benefit the 1% - you don't seem to mind it, that's your perogative.

[hrmjustin]

322. I stood up against the iraq war. i lost a cousin.

So don't you dare say i don't mind war.

[polly7]

326. Well I'll apologize for that, but don't you dare accuse me of

hating war simply because I think the leader of the country is a 'good guy'. Sorry, it's quite a bit more involved than that ..... and I think it's beyond slimy to accuse anyone who cares about millions of people mutilated, tortured, killed, made homeless, widowed, orphaned as being 'simpletons just in love with their leader'.

[hrmjustin]

328. I didn't accuse you of anything,

I asked you to clarify.

And i don't see you crying for those Gaddafi killed.

[polly7]

330. Of course you did.

And you still are.

I cry for everyone killed everywhere - by anyone.

[hrmjustin]

332. Good. Thdn you can understand why they revolted against him.

[polly7]

335. Oh yes, I understand completely.

I posted a very large collection of articles that summed it up perfectly. Obviously you ignored it. Ironic, for someone seemingly so interested.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6716669

Hussein! Gaddafi! Sorry - that shit didn't fool many at all.

[hrmjustin]

337. We are not talking about Sadam.

We are talking about Gaddafi.

[polly7]

339. LOL. nt.

[hrmjustin]

341. oh?

[polly7]

345. Yeah ........ I've got stuff to do.

Your game got boring.

[hrmjustin]

346. That is sad that you consider talking about these tragedies as a game.

Good bye.

Apparently i wasted my time

[polly7]

349. No, that was you. And it was slimy.

Bye bye .....

[hrmjustin]

353. No, i know what it is like to lose in war.

Next month we sill mark the 10th anniversary of my cousin being killed in Iraq.

I was willing to talk to you but you took it personally.

You wasted my time.

Good bye.

[polly7]

359. You wasted mine.

But I thought we weren't talking about Iraq???

And yes, I take sham wars against millions of people personally - every child hurt, maimed, orphaned, tortured, raped - it hurts my heart. I know what it's like to lose a child, so it's easy for me to feel the pain of every parent who has to watch foreign militaries destroy theirs, among all the other horrors.

[hrmjustin]

360. I am sorry for you loss.

But you accused me of games. I have none.

People are making a big deal over Hillary laughing and i find it ridiculous.

[Maedhros]

656. How about candles for all the innocent men, women and children

who are now living in a nightmare of misery because we blasted Libya back into the stone age?

Yay, us?

[hrmjustin]

660. I did.

[Maedhros]

664. I'm sorry, but your post made it seem like Gaddafi was the only one who died

as a result of our bombing, and that those who are appalled by it are somehow expressing concern only for Gaddafi.

[hrmjustin]

668. Well now you know.

[Maedhros]

679. So I saw you throw up this thread in the HRC group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11076585

Today on DU I learned that Gaddafi was trying to make Libya a better place and Hillary...
HILLARY CLINTON ROOM

...should not be president because she laughed at his death.

Glad we got that clearsd up.

That completely misrepresents the issue with the bombing of Libya, and it's pretty damned cowardly to post such passive-aggressive bullshit in a protected group so you don't have to face rebuttal.

Man, I expect better from the group moderator.

[hrmjustin]

680. You have a lovely night.

[Maedhros]

681. Put me on your ignore list, and I'll add you to mine. [n/t]

[hrmjustin]

682. i don't use it but you go ahead.

[BainsBane]

258. How about some sympathy for the people Quaddafi killed

In the attack on the airliner? Or the people who rose up against his brutal rule? Nah, their lives don't count. Brutal dictators who engage in international acts of terrorism are just worth more.

I have no doubt that some here will vote GOP, and they will make excuses for it, but the fact is they will do it because the GOP better reflects their worldview.

[KingCharlemagne]

342. How about some smpathy for Qaddafi's son, killed in a U.S. airstrike authorized

by U.S. President Reagan? Or in your moral calculus are the sins of the father visited upon the son, therefore the son deserved to be killed? If so, how Old Testatment-y of you.

[BainsBane]

373. Of all the people killed in Libya

over the past several decades, that is the one person you decide matters? I keep forgetting how much more the privileged matter than the rest of humanity, but there is always someone to remind me when I do.

This OP is about the horror that is Hillary Clinton. You are interrupting the narrative by bringing up the Reagan administration's actions. You must pretend the only source of evil on the planet is Hillary Clinton or you divert from the approved narrative.

[KingCharlemagne]

379. Qaddafi's son was 8 years old when he died, i.e, a child. Your sympathy for civilian victims of

state violence is thus, shall we say, highly selective and even perhaps contingent upon the skin color of said victims.

[polly7]

662. The OP concerns reaction to the death of Qaddafi.

Of course the death of his young son is relevant. No sympathy at all?

[Cheese Sandwich]

266. And now.... "Gaddafi's home town falls to Islamic State in anarchic Libya"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026715983

[polly7]

268. Another success!!! nt.

[darkangel218]

276. +1 Woohoo!!!

Let's all laugh with joy!!

[polly7]

288. It makes my stomach sick to read about it, just as I felt when I found out

the lies for 'humanitarian intervention' had worked. The same stupid shit over and over and over again .......... any nation not yet open to the World Bank, IMF and that controls its own resources - is fucked. Especially Libya, which had a gov't that was protecting all of Africa - which up until that time had been able to keep foreign military out.

[darkangel218]

290. You are not alone.

Many of us feel the same. Unfortunately, many, but not all, as you can clearly see it in this thread.

[MaggieD]

323. Does that make Gaddafi a good guy?

Just curious.

[darkangel218]

327. This is not about a good or a bad guy. This is about gleeing over the death of a human beign.

Do you support the death penalty, MaggieD?

[MaggieD]

336. No, because it's a racist tool in this country

Same as I posted up thread.

But that doesn't mean I'm against the people deposing a muderous dictator.

[darkangel218]

338. So pro or against the death penalty?

[MaggieD]

344. Against because it's a racist tool in this country

This is the third time I have answered this question. Is there something you're not comprehending?

Do some people (like muderous dictators) deserve to die? Absofuckinglutely. Do I mourn them. No. Not even a little. I'm glad he's dead.

[darkangel218]

348. So you are pro some people dying, but not others?

I think that safely qualifies you as pro.

Its either none, or all. You can't chose to execute some and claim to be against it.

[MaggieD]

350. What you think about me....

Is not really a concern of mine. Sorry.

[darkangel218]

354. LOL!!!

Enough said.

[Cheese Sandwich]

347. It's also about foolishly taking out the Libyan government, creating a zone of anarchy and terror...

The weapons the US poured in there also spread throughout Africa and caused trouble in places like Mali.

Easily foreseeable blowback.

It's the same pattern the US followed in Iraq and Syria. Overthrow a dictator and usher in an era of anarchy and terror.

Either it's bad judgement, or it's just following along with a plan.

I'd love to hear the press ask Hillary whether she made a mistake supporting the intervention in Libya.

[darkangel218]

352. She will probably give an ambiguous answer

And move on. It's what she does

[hrmjustin]

356. Were people wrong to be gleeful over Hitlers death?

[treestar]

362. Some human beings deserve that

Evil dictators are in that category. So is Cheney, I understand.

[KMOD]

363. Finding relief, or not being concerned about someone's death,

is not the same as supporting the death penalty.

[darkangel218]

368. Seriously?????

KMOD
363. Finding relief, or not being concerned about someone's death,
is not the same as supporting the death penalty.

[KMOD]

371. Yes, seriously.

Let's say, hypothetically there's a family in your town. In this family there were children who were abused by a parent. Eventually that parent ages, gets cancer and dies. Because of the abuse, the children aren't mournful of the death.

Does this mean the children support the death penalty in your mind?

[darkangel218]

380. You dont even address that posters allegations , yet you give me "lets say " scenarios"??

The death of a human being is the death of a human beign.
I won't let you twist it.
And how one reacts to that new/info, is how that one reacts to that news/info.

Death is nothing to smile about. And look where Lybia is now, how many have died because of the chaos in the region.

No, death is nothing to smile about.

Maybe I should put that as my Sig. Since so many think it's ok to smile and jubilate another human's death

[KMOD]

386. It is not the same as believing in the death penalty.

How is that twisting anything.

People react with varying emotions to death. There is no rule book on that.

[darkangel218]

387. Because you dont address the false sexism alegations

That's how.

[KMOD]

390. I did address them.

You admitted that you couldn't understand it. I tried to make it as clear as I could.

[darkangel218]

391. You did not. Link to where you explained why Bonobo's post was SEXIST!

I'm waiting.

[KMOD]

393. DISTURBING. That is what I called it.

He wishes he could hit a woman, and you are more offended that someone called him sexist.

I'm more offended that he wishes he could hit a woman.

It's that simple.

[Cheese Sandwich]

357. Somebody should ask Hillary whether she thinks the US intervention in Libya was a mistake...

Gaddafi was not a good guy but neither are the many comparable dictators the US supports and arms.

[Marr]

401. Again with the juvenile, black/white, good guy/bad guy thinking.

It's often plain unwise to remove existing governments, whether you consider to them to be led by 'bad guys' or not.

Why is the self described, 'pragmatic, reality-based community' so lost concerning this point? Iraq wasn't enough to teach you?

[treestar]

361. Is there anything about her actual views on foreign policy that you object to?

Anything of substance? As SOS she was carrying out Obama's policy.

Who cares about laughing at Gaddafi's death? Or beating him at his game? He was an evil dictator. Are you mad at the Bushes for killing Saddam? Or is it OK because you never caught them laughing about it?

[KMOD]

365. I asked for his thoughts on the people Gaddafi killed,

and he had no comment. He also stated that he wished he could smack HRC because he didn't like how she reacted to Gaddafi's death.

[cali]

366. I remain disgusted at the invasion of Iraq

but no, bush didn't kill Saddam Hussein. He was executed following a trial. Gaddafi's killing was extra-judicial. There's a big difference.

I've detailed my objections to HRC's view on military intervention. I'm not going to do it again here. And no, she wasn't just carrying out Obama's policies. That meme is ridiculous. She was instrumental in formulating policy. Do you actually believe that a SoS does nothing but carry out orders? Patently untrue.

[Smarmie Doofus]

367. Hillary: you and the fellas are truly the "Cops Of The World."

..."so take off your clothes, and lie on your back."

Happy now?

Thanks... eternally... to Phil Ochs.

[Metric System]

369. Who knew there's a pro-Qadaffi wing of the party?

[KMOD]

376. It really is a big tent, I guess.

[eridani]

544. It's the exact same thing as the pro-Saddam faction

You know, those folks who opposed the Iraq war. This cheerleading for turning countries into shitholes dominated by squabbling militias is geting pretty disgusting.

[NYC Liberal]

611. Hell, we've had...

North Korea apologists and Mugabe apologists.

[Maedhros]

657. How about "pro-innocent-Libyans?"

I guess you would be in the "pro-shock-and-awe" wing of the Party.

[Hekate]

370. Oh ffs Bonobo. You never supported HRC in the first place, so don't pretend this was the breaking...

....point. The horror, the horror now that you SEE and not through a glass darkly.

[darkangel218]

383. I didnt suppory HC, and i was shocked to see this reaction from her

And I bet I'm not alone.

[KMOD]

388. Yet, you're weren't upset over a man who wishes he could smack a woman.

[darkangel218]

389. I was. I said it was wrong. Twice!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1002

darkangel218
267. Saw that.
And I agree with you that it was wrong.

Why are you lying???????

[Agschmid]

426. Yet it apparently isn't sexism to want to hit a woman huh?

[CullenBohannon]

394. creepy

Another country we destroyed by getting involved.

[bvar22]

417. "Hillary "We came, we saw, he died" (yes, smiling gleefully) "

Problem is, that was a very unwise course of action.

Libya had the highest standard of living in North Africa.
Qaddafi was in a Civil War with Black Flag fundamentalists (Al Qaeda) in the eastern tribal part of Libya.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html

"We came, we saw, he died"......
and our Freedom Bombs turned Libya into another failed state that has descended into daily violence, Islamic fundamentalism, and Sharia Law.

Most importantly, removing Qaddafi ended the Pan-African movement (Africa for Africans), and opened North Africa to the looters from the IMF and World Banks.

Thanks, Hillary.
How do you sleep at night?

[polly7]

480. [phone] nt.

[2banon]

604. excellent post, indeed How in the hell does she sleep at night?

[woo me with science]

650. [phone]

[morningfog]

420. Hell, she threatened to NUKE Iran!

[OKNancy]

474. If Iran launched a nuclear attack on Israel

[morningfog]

568. True, but the point remains.

[cantbeserious]

429. I Will No Longer Settle For The Lesser Of Two Evils - Go Bernie Go

eom

[darkangel218]

473. +1

[4now]

447. Irrational Clinton hatred starting to pay off.

Please tell us more and don't forget to express your love for gaddafi.

[seabeyond]

470. you know when we have tumbled head over heal, when a man declares he would like to smack a woman,

and his supports applauds and defend.

while talking about the wrong in violence.

fuckin over the top absurd.

cheer on sander fans.

yea. bonobo being the man that he is, knows the right thing to do would be to smack clinton.

[oneshooter]

515. Jury Results

On Sat May 23, 2015, 04:16 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

you know when we have tumbled head over heal, when a man declares he would like to smack a woman,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6718098

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Jurors, this is entirely a personal attack. I think I should be able to make an OP about a political candidate without people accusing me as a woman beater. That is just an outlandish personal attack. Please think about that and whether it is reasonable, please.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat May 23, 2015, 04:25 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bonobo clearly stated he would like to smack HRC. Seabeyond's reply is not out of line.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: what a frightening world, people talking and all...
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: I'm voting to hide this for the ridiculous attack on "sanders fans".
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given

[seabeyond]

524. wow bonobo. you state you smack a man, want to smack clinton and you did the right thing smackin'

then you alert on me? it is your fuggin' post. and it is posters defending you stating you want to smack clinton.

"woman beater"? your words. both in alert and the post you made

and you alert on me for a personal attack? classic. fuckin' classic.

Bonobo (25,078 posts)
59. Yep, I'm pretty sure Heritage Foundation made her say that and giggle like that.

I would never giggle over someone's death. It is just impossible for me. I don't go there emotionally. Some people do.

I remember back in 1991 (or was it 1992) on the first night of the original shock and awe bombing.

I was in grad school and watching with friends on TV as we watched the banks of the river in Baghdad light up with explosions.

A friend, a few years younger than me, starting giggling like that, like it was so fucking cool...

I will never forget how I reacted. Without thinking a smacked him in the back of the head and told him that he was watching people die horrible fucking deaths and that it was no movie.

It shocked him. I knew it was the right thing to do.

That is what I would like to do when I see her giggle like this. It literally sickens me to my core and I am surprised that it doesn't you as well given your love for the animals of the earth of which humans are most definitely a part.

thanks for the result of the jury. flabbergasted here at bonobo's alert on me. that takes audacity.

[seaglass]

545. I am so naive. I have seen some dumb alerts but I have never seen an alerter purposely deceive a

jury in an attempt to get a hide. How low can one go?

[seabeyond]

579. ya. i am use to misdirect, even lying. but to be that blatant? surprised even me. nt

[Agschmid]

596. Pretty clear who alerted there too.

[quadrature]

485. a picture of Gaddafi during happier times

[Bonobo]

557. All I ask is that people watch this video and decide

Is that how you want your POTUS to be? Is that how you want to be represented?

If your answer is yes, fine.

But I think it is fair that this be seen.

[840high]

584. ....

[Jesus Malverde]

559. This really sums up her lebgacy as SOS in 12 seconds

She left a failed state that has been brutal for women and minorities.

I think there was giddy enthusiasm with the Arab spring project, she's higher than a kite on power when she spoke like a conquering roman. It's a defining moment.

[Fumesucker]

626. What is best in life?

To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!

[woo me with science]

625. kick

[NaturalHigh]

629. I didn't (and don't) celebrate anyone's death...

but I didn't shed any tears either. I would imagine Secretary Clinton knows a lot more about the atrocities that bastard committed than we do. If this is the worst thing anyone has to say about her, she still has a solid vote from me, and I doubt that many others will hold this against her either.

[TheKentuckian]

658. The atrocities that come as a direct consequence from taking out that bastard are nothing though?

You all sound like the moutbreathing morons that translated being against the Iraq invasion as being Sadam lovers down to the last breath.

[NaturalHigh]

667. Easy there fella.

With all the moth breathing and everything I haven't had a chance to drink my coffee yet this morning.

I didn't say anything like what you wrote in your reply, but I won't mourn for Muammar Gaddafi either. Sorry if that offends your delicate senses.

[TheKentuckian]

670. Seems an awful lot like it since you keep leaping to "not mourning Gaddafi" shit trying to imply

opposing the action is some love for the man.

Right to the Sadam lover style meme seems to come from the exact same dishonest and ignorant place to me.

What the fuck is the difference?

[NaturalHigh]

671. Okay dude. Enjoy your morning rageahol.

[TheKentuckian]

674. Spoken like someone with no defense of the indefensible. Have a great day.

[NaturalHigh]

675. You too.

[Iggo]

653. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fuckin hilarious, Ms Clinton.

Last edited Mon May 25, 2015, 11:16 AM - Edit history (1)

[Maedhros]

659. More like "We came, we saw, a whole bunch of innocent people (um...and Gaddafi) died"

It's sickening to see ostensible Liberals using and defending the same jingoistic rationale with Libya that the Neocons used when we invaded Iraq.

[polly7]

678. Nailed it. nt.

[DonCoquixote]

661. at the very least

even HRC supporters should realize this was exactly the sort of tactless screw up that has cause a lot of trouble, of shock jock Bubba the love Sponge said this, it would be one thing, not our supposedly liberal Sec of State.

[Bonobo]

665. Yes, that is exactly right. She is not a good candidate. nt

[NCTraveler]

686. You have won the award for one of du's most dishones posters.

It will stay with you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026634558

[Bonobo]

695. Don't believe your lying eyes!

It's a hologram!!!

[Orsino]

697. Not even going to look.

I do not delight in death, and those who do sicken me.

Unfortunately, Amurka demands bloodthirstiness of its candidates, and as usual a woman has to try twice as hard.