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wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
Sat May 23, 2015, 03:39 PM May 2015

'the two war criminals will not have to come to trial,' Truman said, 'and I am very happy'

“Mr. President,” the reporter began, “would you care to comment on the death of Adolf Hitler reported, or Mussolini?”

Truman’s response indicated the looming problem of how to serve justice to Axis leaders who had wrought such havoc on Europe.
“Well, of course, the two principal war criminals will not have to come to trial,” Truman said, “and I am very happy they are out of the way.”

http://www.examiner.net/article/20150430/NEWS/150439985

Notice Truman is only happy a brutal dictator was dead. He wasn't 'gleeful' like Hillary.

34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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'the two war criminals will not have to come to trial,' Truman said, 'and I am very happy' (Original Post) wyldwolf May 2015 OP
Godwin's law in one! morningfog May 2015 #1
Not exactly. Legitimate comparison's to Hitler don't apply wyldwolf May 2015 #2
No, I got it right. It works for military apologia as well. morningfog May 2015 #7
No, you got it wrong. Was it OK to target Hitler for assassination? wyldwolf May 2015 #8
Hillary's comments have nothing to do with hitler. morningfog May 2015 #9
No one said they did. Hence, your fabrication wyldwolf May 2015 #12
This whole thread is about Hillary and you know it. morningfog May 2015 #13
this whole thread is a comparison of the 'progressive' reaction to a Hillary statement vs.... wyldwolf May 2015 #14
Godwin's Law =/= Reductio ad Hitlerum NuclearDem May 2015 #10
That isn't an example of Godwin's law. yardwork May 2015 #23
Then you misunderstood the OP. morningfog May 2015 #32
Do we need to comeup with a new law for Benghazi? brooklynite May 2015 #31
What does Benghazi have to do with this? morningfog May 2015 #33
OMG, Truman was a raging psychopath! MoonRiver May 2015 #3
Of course! Truman most likely saw this film released by the USArmy and more (GRAPHIC): freshwest May 2015 #28
Stop using logic now. not nice. hrmjustin May 2015 #4
These were different circumstances. sadoldgirl May 2015 #5
No one is comparing Europe to the Middle East wyldwolf May 2015 #6
I'll bet he cackled, too! Hekate May 2015 #11
Only one BIG problem with your anology, Wolf. bvar22 May 2015 #15
So the caveat is bad men should be taken out only when they're a threat to the US. wyldwolf May 2015 #16
What is the death toll in Iraq? PowerToThePeople May 2015 #17
You will have cite a source for your numbers, bvar22 May 2015 #21
Two war criminals have not come to trial, and I am very sad. PowerToThePeople May 2015 #18
+1 yardwork May 2015 #24
This message was self-deleted by its author freshwest May 2015 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author freshwest May 2015 #22
Apples to oranges comparison. Hillary is no Truman and Exilednight May 2015 #20
Dumbest post today and there were some contenders. hobbit709 May 2015 #25
You talking about Bush and Cheney? Octafish May 2015 #26
Okay, got it, see why she acted that way from your links on the other OP. (Warning GRAPHIC): freshwest May 2015 #27
Aljazeera: Reactions to Gaddafi’s Death frogmarch May 2015 #29
So what? I think Truman himself was essentially a war criminal if the term has any meaning. Bonobo May 2015 #30
Truman ... GeorgeGist May 2015 #34

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
2. Not exactly. Legitimate comparison's to Hitler don't apply
Sat May 23, 2015, 03:47 PM
May 2015

Obama's policies are like Hitler's = Godwin's law.
Dictator Muammar Gaddafi mass murdered people like Hitler does not equal Godwin's law.

You've probably been looking for the opportunity to use that phrase effectively. I guess you're still waiting.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
9. Hillary's comments have nothing to do with hitler.
Sat May 23, 2015, 04:08 PM
May 2015

Hence, your false equivalency and Godwin's law. Don't deny it, embrace it.

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
14. this whole thread is a comparison of the 'progressive' reaction to a Hillary statement vs....
Sat May 23, 2015, 04:18 PM
May 2015

... 'progressive' silence on Truman's similar reaction to the death of Hitler. And you know it.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
28. Of course! Truman most likely saw this film released by the USArmy and more (GRAPHIC):
Sat May 23, 2015, 08:09 PM
May 2015


Eisenhower & Patton Visit The Nazi Death Camps


Published on Jun 25, 2014

While perusing the National Archives I came across this film about the liberation of the Nazi concentration camps by the US at the end of the Second World War. It was at once repulsive and fascinating. It is an in your face look at the ultimate horror. We get A view of the aftermath of large scale mechanized slaughter of countless numbers of innocent people, and the shattered survivors. Below is a breakdown of what the film contains

Anyway it is an important film but not for those who are offended by the showing of graphic images. If you are DON'T WATCH!


Those are comments by the uploader, ChiTownView. It has not even gotten 2,000 views, when AJ, et al, get millions.

R.1: Army Lt. Col. George C. Stevens, Navy Lt. E. Ray Kellogg and U.S. Chief of Counsel Robert H. Jackson read exhibited affidavits which attest to authenticity of scenes in film. Map of Europe shows locations of concentration camps in Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Czechoslovokia, Danzing, Denmark, France, Germany, Isle of Jersey, Latvia, Netherlands, Poland and Yugoslavia. At Leipsig Concentration Camp, there are piles of dead bodies, and many living Russian, Czechoslovakian, Polish and French prisoners. At Penig Concentration Camp, Hungarian women and others display wounds. Doctors treat patients and U.S. Red Cross workers move them to German Air Force hospital where their former captors are forced to care for them.

R.2: At Ohrdruf Concentration Camp, inspection team composed of Allied military leaders, members of U.S. Congress and local townspeople tours camp. Among them are Generals Dwight David Eisenhower, Supreme Headquaters Allied Expeditionary Forces commander; Omar Nelson Bradley; and George S. Patton. General Eisenhower speaks with Congressmen. They see bodies heaped on grill at crematorium and Polish, Czechoslovakian, Russian, Belgian, German Jews and German political prisoners. Col. Heyden Sears, Combat Command A, 4th Armored Division commander, forces local townspeople to tour camp. U.S. officers arrive at Hadamar Concentration Camp, where Polish, Russian and German political and religious dissidents were murdered. Maj. Herman Boelke of U.S. War Crimes Investigation Team (WCIT) examines survivors. Bodies are exhumed from mass graves for examination, identification and burial. Four-man panel interviews facility director Dr. Waldman and chief male nurse Karl Wille.

For more on this part of the story follow this link:

http://www.warhistoryonline.com/articles/during-wwii-general-eisenhower-ordered-every-citizen-of-gotha-germany-to-tour-a-concentration-camp-after-seeing-the-camp-the-mayor-hanged-himself.html

R.3:At Breendonck Concentration Camp, Belgium, methods of torture are demonstrated. At Harlan Concentration Camp near Hannover, U.S. Red Cross aides Polish survivors. Allied troops and able-bodied survivors bury dead. At Arnstadt Concentration Camp, German villagers are forced to exhume Polish and Russian bodies from mass graves.

R.4: At Nordhausen Concentration Camp, there are piles of bodies. Troops treat, feed and remove survivors who are mainly Polish, Russian and French. At Mauthausen Concentration Camp, Navy Lt. Jack H. Taylor stands with fellow survivors and describes his capture, imprisonment and conditions at Mauthausen. Volunteers bathe victims.

R.5: At Buchenwald Concentration Camp, Army trucks arrive with aid for survivors. Piles of dead, mutilated and emaciated bodies. Some survivors among dead. Huge ovens and piles of bone ash on floor of crematorium. Civilians from nearby Weimar are forced to tour camp. They see exhibits of lampshades made of human skin, and two shrunken heads.

R.6: British commander of Royal Artillery describes conditions at Bergen-Belsen Concentration Camp. German Army Schutzstaffel (SS) troops are forced to bury dead and aid survivors. Woman doctor, former prisoner, describes conditions in female section of camp. Belson commander Kramer is taken into custody. German guards bury dead. Bulldozer pushes piles of bodies into mass graves.


Producer: National Archives
Creative Commons license: CC0 1.0 Universal
National Archives and Records Administration - ARC 43452, LI 238.2 - NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS - DVD Copied by Ann Galloway. Series:
Producer: National Archives and Records Administration
Language: English
Keywords: archives.gov; public.resource.org
Creative Commons license: CC0 1.0 Universal



This is what I saw in school. It's why little people do shocks me and manufactured outrage doesn't move me. This is the real thing, not a sanitized version.

Eisenhower thought we should know what happened. In our current era, we have fantasies presented with only slogans, no deep thinking or feelings about how to protect others from being made into the 'Other.' Which is just what happened in Germany.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014998709#post6

Another thing from me. As a kid, iike many others, I had a certain morbid fascination with Hitler as the personification of evil. I had to analyze what I was feeling. For some, looking over such material, knowing they have not been in the position to do such, gives some a sense of moral superiority.

But I lost interest in the pursuit, as I realized that was not proof of anything. That I could not point the finger and feel proud. I was brought with a belief in the Golden Rule, and 'There but for the grace of God go I.'

All are capable of doing evil, or great evil. Some fall into the trap, others see it not as a trap, but an opportunity to enrich themselves. Or as in the case of Hitler himself, I don't believe he thought he was doing a bad thing. He was convinced that he was doing something great and was going to bring about a sort of kingdom of heaven.

I don't give the Mad Dog that kind of credit, though. Read the full BBC and Guardian pieces. I don't think the video is available any longer, though. I wondered at the time he was overthrown, why the British seemed so happy about it. Then some of the DUers from that area explained the history to me.

There is a lot we do not see in our billionaire-owned media. They want us to bite at the latest headline and outrage, or they even make them up. I can't say that I care about this man dying.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
5. These were different circumstances.
Sat May 23, 2015, 03:54 PM
May 2015

To compare Europe to the rather unstable ME is a mistake.

Still, the remark Hillary made sounded not just gleeful,
but extremely arrogant, imo.

wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
6. No one is comparing Europe to the Middle East
Sat May 23, 2015, 03:58 PM
May 2015

I'm comparing one president who was happy TWO brutal dictators were dead vs. a SOS who was happy one was dead. Regardless of circumstances. The very definition of blind justice.

Was Truman being arrogant? Or Just Hillary?

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
15. Only one BIG problem with your anology, Wolf.
Sat May 23, 2015, 05:13 PM
May 2015

Hitler & Mussolini actually WERE a threat to the USA.
We were in a Declared War with them.
The USA had absolutely NOTHING to do with the deaths of either Hitler or Mussolini.


OTOH, what threat did Gaddafi or Saddam pose to the USA?
Gaddafi was a threat to the IMF and the World Bank because he was a committed Pan African (Africa for Africans) and used Oil Money to undercut the IMF and keep their usurious "loans" and demands for Privatization OUT of Africa.

So, "they" Piggy Backed on the legitimate Arab Spring to join an ongoing Civil War on the side of the Black Flag Islamic Fundamentalists, and took him out, turning the most advanced and secular country with the highest standard of living in North Africa into another Failed State run by Radical Islamic Fundamentalists who have already imposed Sharia Law on Libya.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html


Our Freedom & Democracy Bombs don't seem to be spreading Freedom and Democracy.



wyldwolf

(43,867 posts)
16. So the caveat is bad men should be taken out only when they're a threat to the US.
Sat May 23, 2015, 05:16 PM
May 2015

If they're killing 10,000 people, 800,000 people, and the violence has potential to,or actually is, spilling across borders, we should just go about our daily lives.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
17. What is the death toll in Iraq?
Sat May 23, 2015, 05:26 PM
May 2015

By your logic, we should send in the Marines to kill W and Cheney and all their ilk.

Now, I do wish to see them arrested and put on trial, but a military assassination is not needed.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
21. You will have cite a source for your numbers,
Sat May 23, 2015, 05:36 PM
May 2015

...and that the Civil War in Libya was "spilling" across borders.
Actually, the only people crossing the Libyan border were crossing IN to Libya to join with the militant Islamic Fundamentalists in the Civil War.

BTW: How many Libyans did the USA kill with our Freedom Bombs?
Gaddafi didn't understand that it is OUR job to kill Muslims, not his,.
because we can do it on an industrial scale that would make even the NAZIs jealous.

 

PowerToThePeople

(9,610 posts)
18. Two war criminals have not come to trial, and I am very sad.
Sat May 23, 2015, 05:29 PM
May 2015

If you are a war criminal, please raise your hand.

Response to wyldwolf (Original post)

Response to freshwest (Reply #19)

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
27. Okay, got it, see why she acted that way from your links on the other OP. (Warning GRAPHIC):
Sat May 23, 2015, 07:49 PM
May 2015

The BBC Version:

Mad Dog - Gaddafi's Secret World



Colonel Gaddafi was called Mad Dog by Ronald Reagan. His income from oil was a billion dollars a week. He washed his hands in deer's blood. No other dictator had such sex appeal and no other so cannily combined oil and the implied threat of terror to turn Western powers into cowed appeasers.

When he went abroad - bedecked in fake medals from unfought wars - a bulletproof tent was flown ahead, along with camels that would be tethered outside. His sons lived a Dolce & Gabbana lifestyle - one kept white tigers, while another commissioned a $500 million cruise liner with a shark pool.

Like other tyrants, Gaddafi used torture and murder to silence opposition, but what made his rule especially terrifying was that death came so casually. A man who complained that Gaddafi had an affair with his wife was allegedly tied between two cars and torn in half. On visits to schools and orphanages Gaddafi would tap underage girls on the head to show his henchmen which ones he wanted. They would be taken to his palace and abused. Young boys were held in tunnels under the palace...

Then I met a man in a bar in Africa. He was a Scottish oil worker from Tripoli. He told me his Libyan neighbour’s seven year old daughter had been intercepted by Libyan security on her way home from school. They cut off her lips with scissors and hung them in a plastic bag inside a car. They put her body on the back seat. She bled to death. Her father had spoken derisively of Gaddafi and been shopped by a colleague. Suddenly the dictator didn’t seem such fun anymore...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03tj0n0

The Guardian version:

Storyville: Mad Dog – Gaddafi's Secret World (BBC4) was as dense, as informative and as powerful as you might expect of an 80-minute documentary about the Libyan leader containing interviews with those he bereaved, tortured and imprisoned, those who tried to stop him, and those who – when the money was right and the risk worth it – helped him; and it was twice as horrifying.

Christopher Olgiati's film outlined Gaddafi's funding and coordinating of terrorist movements, the orchestrating of civil conflicts, the training of genocidal warlords, the ceaseless executions of enemies real and imagined. Amid the litany of violations against God and man and conscience, some details stood out. Idi Amin's prisoners having to choose between suffocation in their overstuffed cells or death by stepping into the electrified water outside. The hot pokers and dogs trained to bite to a maximally-painful depth in Abu Salim jail. The six-year-old with her lips cut off and left to bleed to death because she did not smile when Gaddafi thought she should.

The only relief came when we moved from profound horror to profound disquiet, such as when the former National Security Council Director for Libya at the White House, Gwenyth Todd, recalled watching an oil company's CEO who had come to ask them to lift the post-Lockerbie sanctions start crying when they refused. "We handed him a Kleenex," she says, in a still-disbelieving tone. She uses the same tone when remembering the meeting at which one of her colleagues wondered whether they could remove the sanctions if they managed to discredit the families of the victims of the Pan Am bombing by pointing out that they had accepted insurance payouts from the airline, making them out to be moneygrabbers...***

It was a masterful portrait of the man and of his rise and downfall – slightly let down by an unnecessarily self-aggrandising voiceover: at one point the speaker intoned, in his effortfully gravelly manner, "The men who went [to accept Gaddafi's offer to train terrorists] are reluctant to talk. One told us to forget we even knew his name..."


http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/feb/04/storyville-mad-dog-gaddafis-secret-world-tv-review

***Apparently Obama, called a fossil-fuel, climate destroying lackey at DU, didn't have his staff give the weeping oilman anything but Kleenex. Obama had an oligation under our treaty with the UN to intervene to save civilians. Do people want us to leave the UN like the John Birch Society demands?

The description of the horrors that were being committed in Libya makes me understand why those who overthrew him were so brutal to him and his son. Just when did we develop such a protective feeling for people like this who we were obligated to provide support to take out of power to save lives? And who is funding the media that wants us to feel that way? And why?

Our insatiable thirst for oil helped give this man the power to do what he did. We didn't kill him and his family. His own people did.

frogmarch

(12,153 posts)
29. Aljazeera: Reactions to Gaddafi’s Death
Sat May 23, 2015, 08:34 PM
May 2015
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2011/10/20111020152154903469.html

Egypt

Analysis: Reactions to Gaddafi's death

Analysts, activists, academics and ambassadors share their reactions to the death of the longtime Libyan leader.


excerpt: (emphasis mine)

Ali Aujali is the Libyan ambassador to the US on behalf of the National Transitional Council.

It is a great day for the Libyans and for the international community to put an end for the dictatorship of Gaddafi’s regime. This is the day of the end of terror, of oppression, and of dictatorship in Libya. Libya now is a free country. Libyans now are free people, and they are looking forward to build a new Libya. It is a great day by all means.
I think we [the US and Libya] share the same feeling, the same celebration. This man [Muammar Gaddafi] hurt not only the Libyans inside Libya, but his criminal act is all over the world. The Americans suffered more than any other nation. I think this is a cheerful day for humanity all over the world, not only in Libya. Leaders who support the democracy and support the struggle of the people for their future, for their destiny to get rid of the brutal regime that have been taking Libya for granted: I think they are all celebrating.

I think what is happening in Libya sends a very strong message to the countries and the dictators still around in the Arab world, that this is the end of dictatorship. And what happened in Libya is sending a strong message. They have to let their people enjoy democracy.

The main thing for me is that he is out. This is a man that only understands the words of revenge. He knows that he is involved in many criminal acts against the Libyans, against the international community, and he knows very well that there is no chance for him to survive. Myself, I always liked to see him dead, instead of captured. If we capture him there are a lot of concerns to come around. This is his end and we are celebrating with the world the end of dictatorship.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
30. So what? I think Truman himself was essentially a war criminal if the term has any meaning.
Sat May 23, 2015, 08:36 PM
May 2015

If intentionally killing millions of civilians as opposed to military is not a war crime, the term is useless.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»'the two war criminals wi...