Minimum Wages Are Rising Across the Country. Should They Apply to Minors?

[Agschmid]

[center][/center]

The minimum wage is having a moment. As the cost of living sails past them, cities and states across the country are ditching the federal base and raising the pay floor to catch up. Last January, 11 states and the District of Columbia raised their minimum wage as the result of legislative action or voter initiatives. Twenty-nine states currently boast minimum wages above the federal rate, and cities like Seattle, San Francisco, and soon Los Angeles—whose city council is poised to raise the minimum wage to $15—have nearly doubled it. While the popularity of higher base pay isn’t surprising in blue states and progressive metropolises, the minimum wage is also inching up in solidly conservative places like, Arkansas, South Dakota, Alaska, and Nebraska. In some of those places—both blue and red—legislators have tried to make sure one group doesn’t benefit: minors.

South Dakota residents voted to raise the state’s minimum wage to $8.50 last year, but this March, Gov. Dennis Daugaard signed into law a bill that sets a separate, lower rate of $7.50 an hour for workers under the age of 18. (Unlike the wage hike, the minimum wage for minors will not annually adjust for the cost of living.) Last April, Minnesota folded a subminimum youth wage into its overall wage increase. The most recent example didn't quite make it to the finish line: A bill in Nebraska designed to establish a lower minimum wage for student workers aged 18 and younger broke a filibuster and advanced through two rounds of debate before finally dying on the floor of the nonpartisan unicameral Legislature. State Sen. Laura Ebke, a self-proclaimed “Republican and conservative libertarian,” introduced LB599 just months after Nebraska voters overwhelmingly approved a ballot measure to increase the state’s minimum wage from $7.25 to $9 an hour by 2016. Nebraska’s “Student Minimum Wage” proposal fell just four votes shy of the supermajority required under the state constitution to amend a law passed by public vote. Noting a “limited window of opportunity,” Ebke says she has no plans to reintroduce a similar bill in future legislative sessions.

Why raise the minimum wage, only to try and lower it for the youngest workers? While critics of the Nebraska bill portrayed it as a conservative attempt to dial back the minimum wage and unjustly discriminate against the voteless, its defenders described it as a plan to save high school jobs, provide “educational” opportunities, and boost the rural economy. Echoing their conservative peers in the South Dakota Legislature, supporters of LB599 warned that Nebraska’s recent wage hike could prevent many small businesses from hiring student workers. Without a bill like LB599, supporters claimed, rural mom-and-pop shops hiring high school students for low wages would be more likely to hire part-time adult workers who don’t require hand-holding and can legally handle tasks like selling alcohol or manning power tools. The lower wage, Ebke wrote on her website, “may help to incentivize employers to give young workers their first chance at a job.” (Of course, attempts to secure exceptions from minimum wage laws aren’t exclusive to pay for minors: After aiding in the campaign for a higher minimum wage in L.A., union leaders there are seeking an exemption for businesses with collective bargaining.)

In Nebraska, the effort to reduce the minimum wage for young workers was backed by the Nebraska Grocery Industry Association, whose members are likely among the biggest employers in the state of high school–aged workers. Despite a highly visible, monthslong campaign to increase the minimum wage—and despite the fact that Nebraska (save for minor exemptions) has always enforced a uniform minimum wage—the group and other supporters of LB599 alleged that the original initiative wasn’t clear about which workers it would help and that most Nebraska voters aren’t opposed to paying students less than their senior counterparts. According to Kathy Siefken, executive director of the Nebraska Grocery Industry Association, “no one voted on that.”

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What do you think?

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	Yes, Minors Should be Paid new Minimum Wages.
	8 (100%)
	No, Minors Should not be Paid new Minimum Wages.
	0 (0%)
	Can I just be paid the new Minimum Wage?
	0 (0%)
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[mike_c]

1. everyone who works should make a living wage

Everyone.

[Agschmid]

2. Yup.

That wage is different in each state though, and even in regions of states. A hard number is hard to find.

[aspirant]

3. If they apply to Majors,

why not Minors?

[Agschmid]

4. Yah we call those "Adults" typically...

[aspirant]

7. I know many adults

that reveal the child within.

[Agschmid]

8. Everyone has their moments.

[Cal Carpenter]

5. Of course. The narrative is that teens work shitty jobs

to 'learn responsibility' and earn some spending money.

The reality is that most people work shitty jobs because they need the fucking money.

[JonLP24]

6. If they don't then managers interested in cheaper labor costs

will just hire more minors -- keep the labor market balanced.

[Recursion]

9. Sure. A minimum wage isn't just about the worker who gets it

it's also about the other workers that worker can't now undercut on wages. In broad strokes it's also about how much of the GDP goes into wages.

[hunter]

10. Hell yes.

A job that doesn't pay a living wage is a job not worth doing.

In the modern world of automation and highly productive agriculture we even have to move beyond this minimal standard by paying comfortable pensions to retirees (most especially laborers whose bodies are simply worn out), cutting work hours, providing free education for people of all ages, and pay-to-go-to-school educations for people whose talents we will require to cope with this rapidly changing world.

Dealing with problems of climate change, workers displaced by automation, ovepopulation, etc., will not be a job for the ignorant and fearful.

[Agschmid]

11. Yup, agree.

[Warpy]

12. A job is a job

and all jobs should support the workers who do them, even if they're 15.

[Igel]

18. You're a student and 16 years old.

You have a choice: You can work 40 hours a week and make 30k/year or you can get Bs and As in school and make much less.

I have a lot of students who are failing and will not graduate from high school because they can work 30-40 hours a week at minimum wage, 7.25/hr. *That* is too much temptation for them to handle.

Hell, it's too much temptation for their parents to handle. "You have a job, you can pay your own car insurance, transportation, and entertainment." I have kids whose parents charge them rent as of their 18th birthday. Why? Because the kids *can* earn money.

But hey, you start work at 3 (get out of school at 2:30), get off work at 11 pm, it's midnight by the time you get home. Then at 7:30 am you have to be at school, ready for that test ... "But Mr. Igel, I had to close every night this week. I didn't have a chance to study."

And you know the kids it hurts the most? The low-SES kids whose parents *could* manage to get them through high school, the kids who could easily survive, but who can't handle the temptation. They have limited means. Not "no means."

We're not talking about the child of illegal migrants who can't hold decent jobs and whose income is necessary to feed the family, or the child of a single parent whose ill and can't hold down a full-time job. We're talking not "working impoverished" but "working poor" or "lower middle class"--often the kids best poised to be the first in their family to successfully finish college. We're talking about sacrificing many for the few. We want to play nanny. Here's our chance to do what's right for the kids and not right for us with our age, relative wisdom, and financial obligation if we were suddenly holding those kids' jobs. Often we fail to actually understand empathy: We focus on the emotion, but nothing else. "They feel bad, we must take away their bad feelings." Well, a lot people feel bad when they make mistakes or do something wrong: If they don't we call them "sociopaths."

These kids screw themselves over and sell their future for $7.25/hr now. I have 160 kids, and maybe 10 of them I haven't seen for a month or they can't graduate even if they get 100 on every single final exam in the next couple of weeks. Why? Because they can't pass up $400/week. One kid's mother finally came to her senses in the last week: She got him the job, worked at the same place, and was proud he was working 40 hours a week. Then she realized he wasn't going to be the first to finish college in his family; he was going to be the first in his family to fail to graduate high school since the 1940s.

Some kids that aren't so bad at school look at the $ and make their decision about post-graduation plans. "F**k no, I'm going to graduate with As and Bs. Otherwise I'm stuck in a shit job." For them, college or tecnical training means $. They can hold off succumbing to $7.25/hr in hopes of getting $15/hr. I've even gotten kids to cut back on hours or quit to bring up their grades--it's a money-based argument some kids in this bracket "get." So let's dispose of this argument. "The only reason to not make $30k/year now is because in a few years you'll have an easier job making $30k or $35k/yr." Much harder argument to make to prestige- and temptation-driven kids whose inhibition centers won't mature for another 6-8 years.

Yes, the employers are also to blame. They complain that it's hard to find good help, training new workers is a bear, scheduling a lot of part-time workers is harder than scheduling a few nearly full-time workers. They overschedule a lot of kids, but you know? The employers, the kids, and the kids' parents very, very seldom complain. Because they see $ and American society just isn't that into self-discipline.

No, the counterargument that "if they need to work, then $15/hr will let them work fewer hours" doesn't hold water for the vast majority of kids. Most of them don't need to work. If you push them just a bit they admit this: They "need" to work to pay for their car, insurance, cell phone, those $200 sneakers, the limo for the prom, the trip to the beach after graduation. And once they have the money for those things, they "need" a newer car, they "need" to upgrade their trip plans, get a new phone or get a nifty iPad. Very few say they "need" food or basic clothing.

[Snobblevitch]

19. You bring up many interesting points.

There are many who are either unaware of the realities or are so hung up on their ideologies that they do not allow for what can be unintended consequences. If there are many who are willing to accept $12/hour now but demand $15/hour, how are they ever going to strive to improve thselves so they can earn more and not need to work what is traditionally a low skilled-low wage job?

On the issue of living wages, there are many jobs out there that never were intended to, and never will, pay enough on which to raise a family.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

21. I have seen exactly what you write of.

at our local high school. I see this again and again at our local high school. Parents are working hard to to keep a roof over their kids' heads, but there isn't enough money for things like name-brand items, smart phones with expensive data plans, etc, so the kids get jobs to pay for luxury items to keep up with their friends, many of whom also got jobs to pay for luxury items to keep up with their friends...

And I remember reading an article in the Houston Chronicle years ago by a college professor who said the same thing about college students. I am paraphrasing the conversation he wrote about:

Student: I don't have that much time to study because I have a job.

Professor: Can you quit your job this semester to work on your grades?

Student: No, I need to work to pay for my car, insurance, and gas.

Professor: Do you need a car?

Student: Yeah! I need a car to get to work.

My kids were younger then, but that article made me think about how we would handle this issue when our kids became teens, and I don't regret the actions we have taken. No jobs during the school year - summer jobs only. They had to save 75% of what they took home. All that disposable income is just too tempting to young people who are not mature enough yet to see the long term future.

Personally, I don't think that students should be paid less than the minimum wage because a lower wage is too ripe for abuse by the employer, but somehow, we have to get across to these students not to sacrifice their future for "stuff" they think they need.

[Agschmid]

23. Interesting points.

Thanks for your post.

[Warpy]

24. If their parents were being paid, they wouldn't have to work so damn hard

I remember how it was when workers got paid enough to live on. Parents didn't think of charging their kids rent and making them pay for their car insurance, they didn't need the money and they wanted their kids to concentrate on school, not on waitressing or part time mill work. Parents wanted their kids to do better than they had.

They don't have that luxury today, not in rock bottom wage, third world America where parents and kids both work for starvation wages in the same fast food joint.

[TexasBushwhacker]

27. Thank you!

As a former high school teacher, I don't want to do anything to make working during school or dropping out more attractive. I strongly support raising the minimum wage, but not for young people who should be concentrating on their studies.

During high school, I worked summers, babysat a little and during the school year I sometimes worked as an XOC - extra on call - at a department store, for just a few hours a week. My grades stayed up, so my mom was okay with. I was the oldest and my brothers started high school when I went away to college. I didn't have a car my first 2 years. The only reason I got one eventually was because my uncle was getting rid of an old Pontiac. I worked every summer and Christmas holiday while in college. I had a very part time job at a college bookstore my last 2 years.

My brothers had my dad's old VW to share. But the older brother totalled it. They convinced my dad that they MUST have a car, so my dad convinced my mom that they have to be able to work part time. One brother barely graduated from high school. It turns out he spent a lot of his money on drugs. Neither of them went to college. My mother always regretted letting them work during the school year.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

28. I wish all parents could read your message.

I wish all parents could read your message.

I credit my children's success to their own hard work, obviously, but I know that we had something to do with it, if only because we were adamant about them not working during the school year. Instead, they had more time for studies and extracurriculars, which helped to round out their transcripts in order to qualify for scholarships. And they did. I learned that from watching my very intelligent brother goof off for years because of the pull of that instant gratification of a paycheck.

My parents regretted letting my brother work during school. Oh, did they! The money was too much of a temptation. Nice car, beer, pot , nicer clothes...all were definitely a temptation for a boy from a working class family. I think he dropped out of college 3 times before he eventually finished. Thankfully, he did wise up at some point and made a nice career for himself.

The times have certainly changed. My husband's family could have afforded to buy him a new car, but he didn't get a car until he went away to college, and even then it was a big old hand-me-down Ford. We had good times in that car. haha

[Agschmid]

29. I also worked and in not sure what benefit it had.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

30. I worked 6 hours a week during my senior year

Not exactly a real drain on my time like some kids who are working many more hours. In my case, it did serve a purpose, since I decided that I did not want to work in that particular field, while I previously though I had.

[SheilaT]

13. Should women be paid the same?

Should African Americans?

Everyone should be paid the going rate for the job, whatever that is.

[Chan790]

25. Yes...and you reminded me of something.

A lot of states and the US Dept. of Labor allow disabled/special-needs people to be employed at "special minimum wages" far below minimum wage. I think this is wrong.

A minimum wage...is a minimum wage for everybody.

Here's a US Dept. of Labor fact-sheet on "Special Minimums": http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs39.pdf

[pugetres]

14. I was torn until I investigated...

Last edited Sat May 30, 2015, 05:11 AM - Edit history (1)

I worked during my senior year in HS and was paid student wages (around $2.50/hr? I don't remember). But, the job was for the experience and I also received credit hours for school along with the tiny paycheck. No nights, no weekends, out of school by lunch time everyday (I already had more than enough credits to graduate with an honor cord) and again, a tiny paycheck. It was good.

I went to Missouri's website this evening to see if they still have student wages. This is what I found:

-Missouri Under 20 Minimum Wage - $4.25 - Federal law allows any employer in Missouri to pay a new employee who is under 20 years of age a training wage of $4.25 per hour for the first 90 days of employment.

-Missouri Student Minimum Wage - $6.50 - Full-time high school or college students who work part-time may be paid 85% of the Missouri minimum wage (as little as $6.50 per hour) for up to 20 hours of work at certain employers.

If there is no benefit to the teen or to the student, then it is an out-right abuse to make a person work for less due to their age or current enrollment in school. A full-time 20 yr old college student can be paid less for the same work than the part-time 20 yr old college student? Legally? Can that 20 year old full time student cut back their school hours and demand minimum wage?

And, the Under 20 wage law is also open to abuse. I know this from an incident working at a unionized grocery store. Contract negotiations were ongoing with lots of you gimme this, I'll give you that. A fax from the union was given to me, a cash room clerk. One of the things that the union was pushing for was an increase in the starting base pay. Over the years minimum wage had risen enough so that the union pay was only 25 cents more per hour. The union knew it made them look bad. But, they had a suggestion for Kroger:

Increase that base pay. New hires should be paid state minimum wage. Only if they make it through the 90-day probationary period will they receive the new higher wage. The union then explained that cost-wise it was cheaper to hire, train, and fire before the 90 day period was up.

This is bull crap. Those effing crooks won't be happy until this nation brings back indentured servitude.

EDIT: I went back to the MO state website and noted that the older verbiage was "Under 18 Minimum Wage". It was 18. Now it is 20. At what age do you think they will stop?

[Ghost in the Machine]

15. As a teenager, I made more than the minimum wage working for myself cutting grass. My dad used to

take me after work and on the weekends. I had a pretty good route established. When I turned 16, I had a truck, trailer, riding mower, push mower, weed-eater, edger and hedge trimmers. It was good work during the spring, summer and early fall, but once it got cold and mowing season was over I worked in fast food... didn't make anywhere near what I made cutting grass.

When I graduated from high school I moved back to Miami and had a job with the pipefitters union. I was making first year apprentice wages, which was more than double the minimum wage at the time, and thought I was shitting in high cotton at the time... making $6.75/hr when minimum wage was $3.35/hr. I can remember thinking I'd be living like a king when I got to $10/hr!

When I was in my 30's, I was making $22/hr and working 80+ hours per week. I can remember telling people that I wouldn't even get out of bed for less than $12/hr.. that would get me to show up... if they wanted me to work hard they were going to have to come off of at least $15/hr and if they wanted to see me sweat, they better start talking $18/hr or more. Of course I was a certified welder, certified crane operator and certified for heavy duty, high reach, all terrain forklifts. I also had my own truck and trailer with a gasoline powered welder/generator and all the tools for welding, iron working, wood framing, metal stud framing and hanging sheet rock. I was usually hired as a foreman or superintendent on construction jobs. I was also known as a high-rise & commercial roofing carpenter with a good reputation.

All I can do now is look back on those times and wish that I could still do it. I was disabled in a construction accident almost 12 years ago and now make less than half in a month than I did in a week back then. I was making over 2 grand per week before I got hurt. After 2 major neck surgeries, I can't sit, stand or walk for more than 20 minutes at a time with out having to lay down to rest my back and neck. If I could find a job that allowed me to do that, I would take advantage of the "Ticket to Work" opportunity that disability has offered me to supplement my income. I was a major workaholic and suffered through depression the first 2 years after they told me that I would never work again. I finally came to terms with the fact, but still get depressed once in a while when there's more month than money, but I get over it because I know I can't change it.

I think EVERYONE should be able to earn a living wage as it will help the younger crowd be able to make something of themselves and give them a good start in life. It's sad to hear kids saying they can make more money selling drugs than they can by working a real job. They end up getting busted sooner or later and ruin their future. We need to give our youths a fighting chance to make it legitimately.

Peace,

Ghost

[surrealAmerican]

16. Why would we want to give employers ...

... an incentive to not hire people who need the job to support themselves?

... also, sometimes those teens do actually need the income.

Minimum wage work is not a hobby for very many people.

[bigwillq]

17. Yes (nt)

[gollygee]

20. People assume minors are working for fun money

but a lot of them help pay the familys bills.

[Iggo]

22. Absolutely.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

26. Yes.

Minors should not be 'second tier citizens'. If the work is worth doing at all, it is worth paying a living wage.

Besides, simply allowing ANY group to receive less merely incentivizes corporations to turn to that group as a source of cheap labour, and discriminate against hiring those who do not belong to that group.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. I am sure somebody said this already

I am sure somebody said this already but if you can exempt minors from minimum wage laws a lot of businesses will just hire minors.