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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWONDERFUL! This is what happened when Australia introduced tight gun controls
6/19/15
...But can something be done? Australia, a country that in some ways shares the United States' frontier mentality and history as part of the British empire, implemented sweeping gun-control measures that have been successful for nearly two decades. So, theoretically it's possible, but "the power to do something about it" in the U.S. is limited by factors that are deeply rooted in its culture and baked into its founding document.
...What happened in Australia? Gun violence was bad. A decade of gun massacres had seen more than 100 people shot dead. The last straw was an incident at a popular tourist spot at Port Arthur, Tasmania, in April 1996, when a lone gunman killed 20 people with his first 29 bullets, all in the space of 90 seconds. This "pathetic social misfit," to quote the judge in the case, achieved his final toll of 35 people dead and 18 seriously wounded by firing a military-style semiautomatic rifle.
What happened next? Only 12 days after the shootings, in John Howard's first major act of leadership and by far the most popular in his first year as Prime Minister, his government announced nationwide gun law reform.
Uniform legislation agreed to by all states and territories -- the national government has no control over gun ownership or use -- specifically addressed mass shootings: Rapid-fire rifles and shotguns were banned, gun owner licensing was tightened and remaining firearms were registered to uniform national standards.
How did Australia do it? In two nationwide, federally funded gun buybacks, plus large-scale voluntary surrenders and state gun amnesties both before and after Port Arthur, Australia collected and destroyed more than a million firearms, perhaps a third of the national stock, according to Professor Philip Alpers of the University of Sydney, who is editor of gunpolicy.org. No other nation had attempted anything on this scale. The national government also banned the importation of new automatic and semiautomatic weapons. And the buyback was paid for by a special one-off tax on all Australians.
What was the political fallout? It wasn't without cost to John Howard. Political interest groups among his conservative base raised hell, and the move met strong resistance from some in rural areas. His party's coalition partner in those areas suffered in subsequent elections. But the majority of Australians, shocked by the mass killing, backed action. And it worked...
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/19/world/us-australia-gun-control/
^^^^ This is what we should have done after Newtown/Sandy Hook. It BLOWS MY MIND nothing changed after those sweet, precious toddlers were gunned down in a closet.
(Repost from a reply on another thread. I think its extremely relevant & should be read by as many of us Americans as possible. Please spread the word. It's possible!!!!)
PS~
In the years after the Port Arthur massacre, the risk of dying by gunshot in Australia fell by more than 50% -- and stayed there. A 2012 study by Andrew Leigh of Australian National University and Christine Neill of Wilfrid Laurier University also found the buyback led to a drop in firearm suicide rates of almost 80% in the following decade.
In the 19 years since the announcement of legislation specifically designed to reduce gun massacres, Australia has seen no mass shootings. As Howard wrote in an opinion piece for the New York Times in 2013, "Today, there is a wide consensus that our 1996 reforms not only reduced the gun-related homicide rate, but also the suicide rate."
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Just like I'm sure not all Hillary fans do either.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)'But states rights!' - Bernie Sanders
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Yes yes....
Bernie Sanders IS the face of state rights on guns..... or something.....
Whenever I hear about a mass shooting of innocents.... I think "Bernie Sander!" 1st.... then maybe the NRA or Rick Perry or someone like that.
brentspeak
(18,290 posts)Neither believe in 'states' rights' (as the NRA does not anymore).
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Bernie believes in states rights, - on this issue.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and that gun control alone will not solve the problems of our sick, violent culture.
Not quite the same thing. But continue with your attempted smears.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Civil rights? Voting rights? Health care? Or just gun laws?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)their ACAs unless they specifically left it to the feds. And as far as health care goes, he's been on record for a long time as favoring single payer. But that doesn't mean that administration wouldn't happen at state level.
So yes, the registration end of voting and health care are handled at the state level and lower.
He didn't disagree with background checks in principal; just specifics of the brady law as written. that's not uncommon you know.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Why not embrace it?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)reeks of desperation.
But it dawned on me, doing chores this am, that if it took hold late in the game, it could really backfire on you in the general election.
carry on...
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)So give it a rest already. Sheesh.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)issue that will need more than a simple fix.
but you know that already. and I'm done here.
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)Let's not paint everyone with a broad brush just because we find ourselves disagreeing with them now and then.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)rights.
And he also didn't -- and doesn't -- believe that gun control alone will solve the problem of a violent culture.
Of course, his more sophisticated and complex view of our sick culture doesn't fit into a nice soundbite. So continue trying to mischaracterize his views. Smacks of desparation, but carry on.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Civil rights? Voting rights? Health care? Minimum wage? Or just gun laws?
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)they specifically requested federal. And as far as health care goes, he's been on record for a long time as favoring single payer. But that doesn't mean that administration wouldn't happen at state level.
He also believed background checks could best be handled at the state level.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Why not embrace it?
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Guns are worshipped above all else, it's sad to say.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)18 million people in Australia in 1996.
26 million people in Texas alone right now. And as you point out, many of those people believe that owning guns is their constitutional right and the government trying to take their guns is proof of the government's intended tyranny, just as the forefather's predicted.
I wish we could remove guns from our country, but I just don't see it happening. If I see a plan that I think will work, I will support it. But removing guns from a country with 320 million people is a lot different than removing guns from a country with 20 million people.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Read the article above in the OP as well as this one~
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/12/16/opinion/australia-gun-laws/
The more we know!
TheCowsCameHome
(40,168 posts)Any attempt to limit access to weaponry is seen as a threat to their freedom.
Expect the mass killings to continue.
Sad.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)LiberalArkie
(15,715 posts)U4ikLefty
(4,012 posts)Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Scuba
(53,475 posts)RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Thank you!!
eridani
(51,907 posts)NRA lobbying does not reflect that.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)MH1
(17,600 posts)is that we have a broken political system, disengaged citizens, and a hugely wealthy set of stakeholders deeply invested in keeping their blood-soaked profits flowing.
Resulting in so-called "reforms" like Manchin-Toomey (those two names should set off all kinds of warning bells), which would have supposedly strengthened and expanded background checks, at the too-dear cost of requiring reciprocity in the wrong direction between states on gun laws ... i.e. someone legally allowed to carry a weapon in Florida would now be legal to carry in Pennsylvania, even though PA's requirements for a permit are stricter.
People wanted stronger background checks ... so Manchin-Toomey tried to use that as cover to get through a change that gun-lovers have been salivating over for a long time. Personally, I expect that whatever changes this legislation had made to supposedly expand background checks, would have been either incomplete, unworkable, unenforceable, or some combination thereof. I don't trust either one of those politicians as far as I can throw them. I especially don't trust Toomey. Manchin at least is nominally a Dem and votes with Dems on some things.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Depressing though.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Years ago I followed my personal plan...I sold or gave away all my hunting guns...never owned a hand gun, never wanted to...
Because of the proliferation of guns, America is one of the most dangerous countries in the world...how could one know that some gun owner was about to blast away in a restaurant, school, church, mall...almost any place in the country?
EX500rider
(10,842 posts)Actually not even close...
The US is ranked 108th out of 218 countries by homicide rate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Bigmack
(8,020 posts)Maybe you noticed that Rwanda and Mozambique had a rate of 10....we had half of that....
But Germany and France and Canada and the UK had about 1/5 of our rate.
You really find comfort in knowing that the US is only slightly less murderous than Kenya?
EX500rider
(10,842 posts)The reasonable rates are all under 5 per 100,000 per year....the US is 4.7
That bad countries like Honduras and Venezuela are over 50. (Honduras is 90 per 100,00!)
I was responding however to the claim that we were "one of the most dangerous countries in the world." Which is plainly not true.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)Countries with internal wars did manage to score higher...Are you saying that 14,800+ homicides do not make America one of the most dangerous of nations? My main problem with America is the proliferation of guns...when you enter a mall, who is armed and who isn't?
When will the next gun owner decide to shoot people?
No, we have no hand guns, and I feel much safer that way...
EX500rider
(10,842 posts)Yes I am saying that. So do the facts. All 110 countries with a higher homicide rate are not experiencing a war.
As a matter of fact the worst 10 on the planet are not in any type of war:
South Africa
Saint Kitts and Nevis
Swaziland
Lesotho
Jamaica
Guatemala
El Salvador
Belize
United States Virgin Islands
Venezuela
Honduras
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)I'll stay in Canada most of the time where I don't have to worry about being shot in a grocery story...
Stuart G
(38,421 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)Sorry to disagree - this is what we should have done after the 1966 Texas Clock Tower massacre, or even earlier.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)People can hang onto that to say the US can't have this type of law.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Control. Not banning hunting rifles or pistols for self-protection. Its restricting automatic & semi-automatic weapons. Its a VOLUNTARY govt buy-back to reduce the number of guns floating around.
Please read the article.
We're supposed to be the informed, intelligent side. It doesn't conflict with our "right to bear arms."
treestar
(82,383 posts)The right wing here has the 2nd to use as a cudgel, which is what I was getting at.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Progunners shouldn't get away with using it to fight sensible gun ownership. Its a false flag. It's incorrect. It's used by gun makers as a $care tactic & we should be able to see through it.
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)Of course, several cities across the U.S. have implemented voluntary buyback programs. But, yeah, maybe larger scale effort would make more of a difference.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Does anyone?
prayin4rain
(2,065 posts)If the majority agrees with me, we should be able to get an amendment passed. Then, we still have the logistics problem of disarming the gun nuts of their semi automatic and automatic weapons. 90 percent of Australians supported their law. If we can get even close to that approval rate, we'd have a chance. Without widespread approval, we're gonna have quite a situation on our hands.
clffrdjk
(905 posts)You specifically say it is a ban on all semi autos, do you understand that is 90% of all pistols and well over half of all rifles and shotguns?
You can't demand that while trying to claim you are not coming for their guns.
madokie
(51,076 posts)Yes I can.
Call me a gun grabber all you want... to anyone who feels they must.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Madokie!!
Response to madokie (Reply #19)
RiverLover This message was self-deleted by its author.
packman
(16,296 posts)How many ways can I say this? It's a gawd-given right.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Just trying to bring some sensibility. Do we really need automatic/semi-automatic weapons?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Which is what it would REALLY take. That will take either a radical shift on the court, or an amendment.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)...the Attorney-General's Department itself estimated that 3.35 million firearms would become prohibited...
...As so much of the necessary data is unavailable, it is impossible to conclude that the "buyback" achieved anything other than the collection of 640,381 firearms (mostly .22 cal rimfire semi-auto rifles and pump-action shotguns) at a huge and unwarranted cost.
ABS firearm import statistics for 1996-97 indicate that 125,594 of these firearms have been replaced already.
In the final analysis, the success or otherwise of the confiscations can only be measured by crime reduction...
http://www.ssaa.org.au/research/1997/1997-12_the-great-australian-gun-buyback.html
People often tout Australia's gun buyback as a success while conveniently ignoring that compliance was dismal.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)In addition to the article above, here's another take on their program from people without a financial stake in the sales of automatic and semi-automatic weapons~
2012
A 2011 study by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center of the Australian program noted that while 13 gun massacres (involving the death of 4 or more people at one time) occurred in Australia in the 18 years before the NFA, resulting in more than one hundred deaths, there had been no massacres since.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/17/australia-gun-reform-buyback-us-national-firearm-agreement/1774549/
You know, Kodak used to make a lot of money with camera film, Brother used to make a fortune in word processors...the gun makers could find other products to produce. We just need the strong will of the people. If the will is strong enough, lobbyists' bribes will be turned away.
EL34x4
(2,003 posts)After Port Arthur, Australians demanded gun control.
After Sandy Hook, Americans bought AR-15s.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)We just really suck sometimes.
Shamash
(597 posts)The Australian government has admitted that it only got about one-third of the guns it expected to in the mandatory buy-back.
And the number of deliberate events qualifying as mass deaths in the 19 years since the ban is the same as in the 25 years before it, with an average death toll per year that is virtually the same. The only difference was that fewer guns were used, though with the same number of people dying per year, that would seem to be of little consolation to the victims. However, that is merely according to this, so there may be additional incidents not listed on either side of the ban.
If you have additional information on the subject, it would certainly be useful. But implications of "NRA spin" or that anyone who disagrees with you is taking an NRA position, not so much.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)Shamash
(597 posts)I believe that would be where you showed anything I said was factually incorrect. Because nothing at either of those links did. Simply saying "someone famous disagrees with you" is a pretty piss poor excuse for a rebuttal.
RiverLover
(7,830 posts)I don't have time tonight to argue anything or engage in a pointless debate with you. I've got a big week ahead.
Have a good night!
TexasBushwhacker
(20,185 posts)By banning imports of automatic and semi-automatic weapons, they made sure that the weapons that were destroyed were not replaced. Since they don't have any major gun manufacturers locally, they don't have a corporate shills like the NRA. So they don't have politicians allowing themselves to be influenced by NRA lobbyists.
Contrary1
(12,629 posts)That's nothing...this country can beat that total in just a few days. USA! USA! USA!
Damansarajaya
(625 posts)A gun ban will definitely work to stop gun violence. See England, see Japan.
If we tried it in the US, millions of people would march on Washington and burn it to the ground.
So, that's just not an option here.
Response to Damansarajaya (Reply #50)
Name removed Message auto-removed
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Although I believe people here are allowed to have guns for hunting it is highly regulated like Japan.
daleanime
(17,796 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)concealed, or not.
What would possibly make someone so afraid out in public they would need to carry a gun, let alone strap one on in full view. I just don't get it.
Shamash
(597 posts)And additionally, in New Jersey she could not legally own a 1 ounce (30 gram) pepper spray or a stun gun. So I don't know how you feel about a woman's right to choose, but that poor woman certainly didn't have much of one when it came to protecting herself.
polly7
(20,582 posts)Possibly having a gun and being able to use it would have saved her. I live in Canada, so don't know the laws there regarding pepper spray or stun guns, it doesn't make sense to me that a woman wouldn't be able to legally own those.
Can you tell me the number of cases in which women who already do have the right to carry guns have saved themselves in situations like this?
I've seen too much horror with guns - all accidents and suicides, I really hate them. Why would anyone choose to open carry - strap those huge guns on their backs or pistols around their waists or legs out in public? I might be able to be convinced people, ie. women in fear, should be able to carry a gun for protection - but openly, when accidents could happen so easily and just the sight of them might make everyone around afraid and uncomfortable - just, no. I think it's crazy and trouble waiting to happen.
Shamash
(597 posts)and thus not always rational. You probably have no fear if you see a policeman/woman with an openly carried gun in Canada, because you have an expectation that goes with seeing the uniform. If you saw the back of a civilian with a gun on their hip you might feel one thing, and then feel another if they turned around and you saw they had a prominent police badge around their neck or hanging off a suit pocket. The person was no different before or after, it was just your feelings that had changed.
And your feelings and expectations might not be the same as those of a black man in Ferguson, Missouri has when he sees a policeman. I do not see open civilian carry that much where I live, but I have seen it and it does not bother me.
Other countries with tighter gun control than the US allow civilian carry (like the Czech Republic), and this:
was taken at the Apple Store in Geneva, Switzerland, where no one batted an eye at it. The young man in question is a Swiss reservist, probably on his way back from maneuvers. It is a regular occurrence to see someone on a bus or train with a "huge gun on their back" while in civilian clothing, and so they have different expectations than you would. And lest anyone try to mislead to you to the contrary, that young man does have magazines for the weapon and is allowed to buy ammunition for it at any gun store with no limits (it is not easy to directly confirm this unless you read the laws in the original language, but an English translation of the Swiss legal code is here).
As to how many women who have the right to carry actually save themselves, I don't know and am not sure anyone has broken it down that specifically. According to our Bureau of Justice Statistics, there are about 11 million concealed carry permits distributed among an adult population of about 200 million. Our Center for Disease Control estimates that defensive gun use is at least as common as criminal gun use, and if you accept that figure (a lot here at DU do not) it would mean there are about 800 instances each day in which a person uses a gun or threatens to use a gun as a self-defense measure (this is among all gun owners, not just concealed carry permit holders). I do not feel confident trying to detail it more than that, but it gives you a rough feel for the numbers.
Because every state that has a concealed carry permit system does criminal background checks on the applicant, such people are pre-selected to be less likely to be the ones you should worry about, and this is borne out in statistics, with concealed carry gun owners being less likely to commit a gun crime than average. I do not have any corresponding figures for open carry because many of the states that allow it do not require a permit to do so.
Last, I am a gun rights supporter, but even so I would like to clarify your opening statement. Having a gun and being able to use it would not have saved her. It might have saved her. I think that she should have had a choice, and that not having that choice decreased her chance to survive. But simply owning or carrying a gun, even if you are trained with it, is no guarantee it will save you. It is a last resort that you hope you never have to use, and you act intelligently so that you decrease the chances you will ever need to use that last resort.
polly7
(20,582 posts)the safety and comfort of others. You agree with it - that's fine. I don't. I just think it's stupid. I've seen too many accidents up here as it is with guns on the farm, and suicides - boggles the mind that people there are shooting each other accidentally, or not, with the full right to carry these weapons and do so - in public. Demanding the right to carry guns to church, to schools, to gov't facilities - seems these people are just really, really afraid. I could almost pity them if their obsession and fear didn't kill so many people.
Response to polly7 (Reply #69)
Post removed
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)It is sad to have to ask that, but the power toward maintaining the status quo is strong. I would totally support any measure tightening gun ownership.
roamer65
(36,745 posts)Howard's coalition held the majority of the seats in the lower house of Parliament, so it was much easier to get it enacted.
To get large scale gun control in enacted in the USA, you would have to first repeal or modify the 2nd amendment. The chances of that happening are near absolute zero.