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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:01 AM May 2012

Engravings of Female Genitalia May Be World's Oldest Cave Art

Since their discovery in 1994, the spectacular paintings of lions, rhinos, and other animals in southern France's Chauvet Cave have stood out as the oldest known cave art, clocking in at about 37,000 years old.* But there have been occasional sightings of other cave art that is equally ancient, although its dating has been more uncertain. Now a team working at another site in the south of France claims to have discovered what appear to be engravings of female genitalia that are as old as or older than Chauvet, possibly making them the world's most ancient cave art.

Homo sapiens first colonized Europe from Africa around 40,000 years ago. But until the early 1990s, there was little firm evidence that our species engaged in sophisticated artistic activity that early. Many archaeologists assumed that modern humans developed their artistic skills only gradually, culminating in spectacular galleries like the 15,000-year-old painted caves at Lascaux in France and Altamira in Spain. The discovery of Chauvet changed all that and convinced most researchers that early artists had brought their skills with them from Africa.


SNIP....



One key difference, White says, is that whereas the paintings at Chauvet are hidden deep within that cave and away from living areas, the depictions at Abri Castanet were on the rock shelter ceiling right above the spaces where prehistoric humans slept and ate, making them a kind of everyday and public art.

Harold Dibble, an archaeologist at the University of Pennsylvania, says the team's dating of the vulva engraving appears sound because it cannot be any younger than the surface onto which it fell and might even be older. "The context of the find is quite clear," Dibble says. As for the long-standing tradition among archaeologists working in France of interpreting such images as vulvas, Dibble says, "Who the hell knows" what they really represent? Dibble adds that such interpretations could be colored by the worldview of Western archaeologists whose culture probably differs greatly from that of prehistoric peoples. "Maybe it's telling us more about the people making those interpretations" than the artists who created the images, Dibble says. On the other hand, he says, the repeated use of this image at other sites in the Vezere valley suggests that it was some sort of "shared iconography" that might identify specific groups of people. Indeed, archaeologists have also identified differences in the styles of personal ornaments and other artifacts that might also reflect different groups or tribes, much as people express their group identities by the way they dress today.



http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/05/engravings-of-female-genitalia.html


The artwork can be seen at the link on the photo on the right.

Looks like ancient aliens to me though

73 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Engravings of Female Genitalia May Be World's Oldest Cave Art (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter May 2012 OP
Alright, you got me to click. But it doesn't look like any that I've ever seen. AnotherMcIntosh May 2012 #1
Reminds me of the psychiatrist giving a man the Roscharch test... rfranklin May 2012 #11
Cave men can be so immature. limpyhobbler May 2012 #2
Why do you assume cave men drew them? Could have been cave lesbian art. yellowcanine May 2012 #63
It figures, right? The first art was porn. lob1 May 2012 #3
. kwell May 2012 #4
. Skittles May 2012 #5
>right click>save image as> Nostradammit May 2012 #6
LOVE this site! Skittles May 2012 #60
I wonder if there was a proto John Ashcroft trying to cover it up 4th law of robotics May 2012 #54
Smut! Filth! Objectification! Warren DeMontague May 2012 #7
Watch, someone is going to alert this thread. Quantess May 2012 #30
+1 and +1! LadyHawkAZ May 2012 #32
That's just ridiculous and annoying. Quantess May 2012 #46
Sorry. My bad. :) LadyHawkAZ May 2012 #49
No, not you! Quantess May 2012 #50
LOL I understood you LadyHawkAZ May 2012 #51
I find it highly entertaining ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2012 #57
This post was just alerted on too. hifiguy May 2012 #36
What was the rationale, i wonder? Warren DeMontague May 2012 #37
Will do, when they are posted to me, WDM. hifiguy May 2012 #38
Here ya go. hifiguy May 2012 #39
Oh, yeah, but there are no ban happy thought police here, no. Warren DeMontague May 2012 #41
so did you post it just be to be a jerk? to make fun of people you disagree with? Scout May 2012 #43
I posted it to make sure that the folks who want pictures of nudity and sex outlawed Warren DeMontague May 2012 #44
Thank you, sir. zappaman May 2012 #45
so i was right. n/t Scout May 2012 #47
I guess the real question is, what are you going to do about it? Warren DeMontague May 2012 #56
"How do you censor a stone carving?" 4th law of robotics May 2012 #62
you assume i have any desire to censor anything Scout May 2012 #65
I don't know. I was speaking rhetorically, to those who feel entitled to censor depictions of sex. Warren DeMontague May 2012 #68
i don't think your motives are so pure as you make them out to be. Scout May 2012 #69
Im not interested in purity. Warren DeMontague May 2012 #70
Breasts and vaginas were some of my oldest art pieces too. LetTimmySmoke May 2012 #8
Pentcave n/t Enrique May 2012 #9
Werner Herzog did a wonderful movie about this cave a couple of years ago Recursion May 2012 #10
Yeah, awesome film. "Cave of Forgotten Dreams" n/t FSogol May 2012 #21
This is still another cave Brother Buzz May 2012 #40
Did the model say she was 18? You better not click on that link! Sancho May 2012 #12
Early Georgia O'Keefe? yankeepants May 2012 #13
Obviously, the work of Larry Flyntstone. Buns_of_Fire May 2012 #14
ok...you won the internets today. nt msanthrope May 2012 #23
That is DUzy worthy! hifiguy May 2012 #24
+1 Zorra May 2012 #26
DUzy! LadyHawkAZ May 2012 #33
For the win. Warren DeMontague May 2012 #42
We've obviously evolved way beyond that sort of smut lunatica May 2012 #15
wait ... rotate that top one 90 degrees ... zbdent May 2012 #17
Or.... Ichingcarpenter May 2012 #19
!!!!! ZombieHorde May 2012 #34
I think it would be better if those two buildings were next to each other. Warren DeMontague May 2012 #71
Well we all know it's the choices we make. lunatica May 2012 #72
The world is not that old! randome May 2012 #16
I know vaginas. That is not a vagina!! LiberalFighter May 2012 #18
As Freud might have said, Sometimes a cave ... JustABozoOnThisBus May 2012 #20
Is that guitar man May 2012 #27
Duggar? I barely met her! JustABozoOnThisBus May 2012 #31
Thanks for the link. I live close to a couple of those... TeeYiYi May 2012 #67
So Eve was okay with posing for porn? snooper2 May 2012 #22
No one can consent to their own objectification, silly! Warren DeMontague May 2012 #58
Female genitalia? BS it is obviously the first recording of the FSM Vincardog May 2012 #25
They made paintings of the things they hunted, rhinos and bison - I guess they hunted beaver, too aint_no_life_nowhere May 2012 #28
Paleolithic figures Zorra May 2012 #29
stone age porno librechik May 2012 #35
The French had postcards even in the stone age.... WCGreen May 2012 #48
Looks like beer thirty to me XemaSab May 2012 #52
The only real surprise would be if no xchrom May 2012 #53
So in order of importance to ancient man: sex, food, . . . 4th law of robotics May 2012 #55
What do you mean "ancient" men?! Lemmy May 2012 #59
Very true 4th law of robotics May 2012 #61
So THAT's what they look like! malthaussen May 2012 #64
Definitely have to stop taking women for granite. BadgerKid May 2012 #66
... Bolo Boffin May 2012 #73
 

rfranklin

(13,200 posts)
11. Reminds me of the psychiatrist giving a man the Roscharch test...
Tue May 15, 2012, 06:53 AM
May 2012

showing him one inkblot after another. The man responds, "That's a cock. That one's a cunt. That one's two people fucking..."

"Is that all you think of, sex?" asks the psychiatrist.

"Well, your the one with the dirty pictures!" says the patient.

yellowcanine

(35,699 posts)
63. Why do you assume cave men drew them? Could have been cave lesbian art.
Wed May 16, 2012, 11:51 AM
May 2012

Or early prostitutes advertising their wares. It is supposedly the oldest profession.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
30. Watch, someone is going to alert this thread.
Tue May 15, 2012, 01:11 PM
May 2012

And then complain in Help & Meta that the jury voted to LEAVE IT.

Quantess

(27,630 posts)
46. That's just ridiculous and annoying.
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:49 PM
May 2012

I promised myself to stay out of H&M because of all the angry, rude, censor-zealots. That was good advice for myself.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
37. What was the rationale, i wonder?
Tue May 15, 2012, 03:50 PM
May 2012

I mean aside fom the obvious, i.e. it pissed someone off.

Can you post the results?

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
39. Here ya go.
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:00 PM
May 2012

The worst part is, those Cave People had no community standards, either! FILTH! SMUT!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=92337

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Mocking Feminists and an entire DU Group dedicated to fighting a patriarchal system is bigoted and hateful. This is the kind of thing that really makes DU suck.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue May 15, 2012, 12:59 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Humorless, boorish alerter FAIL.

Leave it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No! This post is not "the kind of thing that really makes DU suck" it's alerts that ignore content and context. Leave the post.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I honestly can't tell what's wrong with it.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Geez Louise, this thread! What a freaking mess to wade through. This post is sarcastic but it didn't strike me as over-the-top. Maybe that's just in comparison to the rest of the thread. Oy.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: If alerter wanted to alert on the post s/he posted ("Mocking Feminists and an entire DU Group dedicated to fighting a patriarchal system is bigoted and hateful. This is the kind of thing that really makes DU suck.", s/he should have alerted on that post.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
41. Oh, yeah, but there are no ban happy thought police here, no.
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:19 PM
May 2012

Given that post, the only people who would reasonably infer "that post is making fun of me" are precisely the people its talking about.

Scout

(8,624 posts)
43. so did you post it just be to be a jerk? to make fun of people you disagree with?
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:34 PM
May 2012

was there an actual point other than to paint yourself as the ...

well, you know.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
44. I posted it to make sure that the folks who want pictures of nudity and sex outlawed
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:36 PM
May 2012

Know that there is a smutty outcropping of 5,000 yr old patriarchal oppression that needs to be stamped out.

Just tryin to help!

Scout

(8,624 posts)
65. you assume i have any desire to censor anything
Wed May 16, 2012, 12:06 PM
May 2012

much less a stone carving



why should i do anything about it?

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
68. I don't know. I was speaking rhetorically, to those who feel entitled to censor depictions of sex.
Wed May 16, 2012, 01:00 PM
May 2012

I was addressing the entitlement mentality that some have which makes them believe that they have the right to tell other consenting adults what to do with their bodies, or what sort of consenting adult entertainment to watch. The entitlement mentality that causes people to try to censor pictures of sex or nudity, be it a painting, a photo, or even, yes, a statue (John Ashcroft, I'm looking at you)

I honestly don't know why pictures of nudity and sex bug some people so much. I don't know what motivates the censorious impulse over things like depictions of sexuality and sex, which have been around as long as people have made artistic depictions of anything.

But some people go absolutely flappy-armed bugfuck over their existence, even to this day. Frankly, it befuddles the crap out of me.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
70. Im not interested in purity.
Wed May 16, 2012, 01:11 PM
May 2012

Last edited Wed May 16, 2012, 01:59 PM - Edit history (1)

I'm interested in hearing, from people whose entitlement mentality makes them believe they need to censor consenting adult depictions of sex and sexuality, what their rationalizations are, as well as what they propose to do about this 5,000 year old porn.

 

LetTimmySmoke

(1,202 posts)
8. Breasts and vaginas were some of my oldest art pieces too.
Tue May 15, 2012, 06:04 AM
May 2012

Drawing them in the sand in 5th grade. Memories.

Brother Buzz

(36,423 posts)
40. This is still another cave
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:05 PM
May 2012
Since their discovery in 1994, the spectacular paintings of lions, rhinos, and other animals in southern France's Chauvet Cave have stood out as the oldest known cave art, clocking in at about 37,000 years old.* But there have been occasional sightings of other cave art that is equally ancient, although its dating has been more uncertain. Now a team working at another site in the south of France claims to have discovered what appear to be engravings of female genitalia that are as old as or older than Chauvet, possibly making them the world's most ancient cave art.


I really enjoyed the Herzog film.

Sancho

(9,067 posts)
12. Did the model say she was 18? You better not click on that link!
Tue May 15, 2012, 06:53 AM
May 2012

Some cops will be breaking down your door for downloading kiddie porn!

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
71. I think it would be better if those two buildings were next to each other.
Wed May 16, 2012, 01:12 PM
May 2012

But maybe that's just my architectural orientation.

JustABozoOnThisBus

(23,339 posts)
31. Duggar? I barely met her!
Tue May 15, 2012, 02:19 PM
May 2012

I have no idea what the cave is named, or even if it is deep enough to be called a "cave".

Here's the link. WARNING: Although these are mostly natural geologic formations, this link may be "Not Suitable For Work". Heck, they may be "Not Suitable For DU". But if they're good enough for the Great Turtle ...

http://thejetpacker.com/nature-porn-20-famous-penis-rocks-vagina-caves-and-breast-mountains/

TeeYiYi

(8,028 posts)
67. Thanks for the link. I live close to a couple of those...
Wed May 16, 2012, 12:49 PM
May 2012

...in Utah.

Another interesting part of that site was the places he would visit if he had a jetpack.
http://thejetpacker.com/12-more-places-we-would-visit-if-we-had-a-jetpack/

Thanks again.

TYY

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
58. No one can consent to their own objectification, silly!
Tue May 15, 2012, 07:16 PM
May 2012

She was brutally victimized by the phalloppressors who carved those filthy images.

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
29. Paleolithic figures
Tue May 15, 2012, 12:46 PM
May 2012
Several small, corpulent figures have been found during archaeological excavations of the Upper Paleolithic, the Venus of Willendorf, perhaps, being the most famous.[1] It is estimated to have been carved 24,000–22,000 BCE. Some archaeologists believe they were intended to represent goddesses, while others believe that they could have served some other purpose. These figurines predate the available records of the goddesses listed below as examples by many thousands of years, so although they seem to conform to the same generic type, it is not clear whether they, indeed, were representations of a goddess or that, if they are, there was any continuity of religion that connects them with Middle Eastern and Classical deities.

The Paleolithic period extends from 2.5 million years ago to the introduction of agriculture around 10,000 BCE. Archaeological evidence indicates that humans migrated to the Western Hemisphere before the end of the Paleolithic. It is the prehistoric era distinguished by the development of stone tools, and covers the greatest portion of humanity's time on Earth.

While most Paleolithic figurines are from the Upper Paleolithic, the Venus of Berekhat Ram found at Berekhat Ram on the Golan Heights is a Middle Paleolithic artefact of the later Acheulian possibly made by Homo erectus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_goddess



The Venus of Dolní Věstonice, one of the earliest known depictions of the human body, dates to approximately 29,000–25,000 BC (Gravettian culture of the Upper Paleolithic era)



librechik

(30,674 posts)
35. stone age porno
Tue May 15, 2012, 03:35 PM
May 2012

they may not know how to make art, but they apparently knew how to masturbate. Right over where they slept> that's where a lot of men keep their "girlie" pics.

WCGreen

(45,558 posts)
48. The French had postcards even in the stone age....
Tue May 15, 2012, 04:55 PM
May 2012

Best line on the comments....

Archaeologists know what female genitalia looks like??? This news is definetly "breaking news".

xchrom

(108,903 posts)
53. The only real surprise would be if no
Tue May 15, 2012, 05:34 PM
May 2012

Body was drawing pictures of genitalia.

Sorry - it's just what's on our
Minds - a lot.

 

Lemmy

(15 posts)
59. What do you mean "ancient" men?!
Tue May 15, 2012, 07:17 PM
May 2012

That's my importance list in the year 2012.

Well...maybe add beer as number 3.

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