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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat can we DU now to help TTW and Yoshi ?
Anyone can understand why she got her dog back, this is family.
Is there anything people can do now to help get her in housing with her dog?
The story about another duer and dog getting hit by a car just made me worried about TTW and Yoshi.
They need somewhere to be safe.
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shenmue
(38,576 posts)Maybe another DUer lives sorta close and can check on them.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Yoshi was in a shelter hoping for permission to place him with a rescue organization. Has that changed?
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)TTW took the dog out of the shelter, where she (TTW) apparently caused "a scene" and is now threatening legal action against misanthrope.
Help at your own risk is the latest advice, and that comes from msanthrope's thread, where one poster is accusing her (and other DUers) of a conspiracy.
Go check it out, if you dare.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I think this is a mental health issue. Where did she take Yoshi 'back' to? I thought what misanthrope and ex did was above and beyond but this whole saga has revolved around TTW being able to keep the dog when it was fairly obvious that wasn't a good answer for either of them in many ways.
Sad. Are they homeless now?
Mariana
(15,613 posts)Yoshi is her property. She owns him. She may do with him exactly as she wishes, within the confines of the law.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I wonder where she took him? I hope they are safe and have a roof.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)where just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. 
.
Sad situation all the way around. It's bad enough having to couch surf and scrounge around for employment - losing a beloved pet just makes it worse.
Just awful.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)She's not capable of making decisions that most of us here recognize as 'easy' and logical. She has mental health issues. Whether they can be addressed with medication or in a regulated setting is something only professionals can determine. Since she has no stewards in her life as most likely, she has driven them away given her limited rational abilities, the possibility of getting her into an analytical setting is nearly impossible. I'm guessing her family has done the best they can, but when you're dealing with mental illness, sometimes the only solution is to let nature take its course, and step away, to save the others in the family from harm and stress.
That being said, going back to the Reagan bashing event when he 'let the nuts out of the loony bins'. It comes down to the issue of free will. Can we as humans, rightfully detain people against their will if they pose no threat to others? It's basic human rights; no, we can't.
I find the suggestion to set up a managed fund for TTW to be equally unrealistic, given her current state of mind. Even a normal, healthy individual would oppose the idea of funds being controlled and used for a specific purpose only, with no control from the recipient. Propose that situation to someone on the borderline paranoid schizophrenic scale and you'll be met with hostility and no gratitude whatsoever.
As far as the dog, if you step back, you'll see that Yoshi and TTW are nearly one and the same. Funny how the two would find each other, a symbiosis of incredible tragedy. Neither can be helped by anyone from the outside, without the other. Tragically the only realistic outcome for him is for some genuine hero to step up, like Cesar Milan or someone of that caliber, to recondition the animal and provide an objective opinion on if the animal is worth saving. Sadly, with TTW's condition, the potential of that happening is zero to none. A few heroes have tried to step up and step in, and were burned badly. This isn't TTW's fault, she is not in control of her mental condition and we mustn't blame her, but this is the problem with mental illness...
The caveat here is that we must sometimes be objective. We cannot save every single animal that is in need, especially if it is at great expense and if it causes harm to the animal, as some are suggesting 'putting the dog in a cage'. Well, there isn't a creature alive on the planet that thrives in a cage. Sometimes the most optimal outcome is to put the animal down, and divert the scarce resources towards animals that can be turned around and 'saved'.
I think that collectively we must all resign ourselves to the fact that there is nothing that anyone can do here. TTW is pretty much unemployable in her mental state, which has probably deteriorated over the years. Yoshi is pretty much un-re-homeable in his current state. Unless TTW has the mental capacity to realize that she has to let go of Yoshi in order to get herself back on track, and recognizes that she needs serious long term medical mental health care AND has the money to even fund such a venture, the outcome, while not specific, is predictable.
This is how the world works with mental illness. It's a desperate spiral down the drain, and sometimes, all we can do is step back and wish it were all different. So many people have devoted a lot of time, love and effort here, and all we can take from it is the lesson that sometimes, we are powerless over issues that are far bigger than we are. We can't save everyone, no matter how hard we try.
But, you tried. You all tried... that's the best we can say, and there is no shame in that.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)
mnhtnbb
(33,100 posts)My husband is a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst who has been in practice for almost 40 years.
I summarized the situation for him at dinner last night--over the last 6 months or so--when TTW first began having
troubles with the landlord who eventually evicted her. He agrees that from the description
of behaviors there is likely a serious mental health issue with TTW--and I'll refrain from mentioning
what he speculates--underlying this situation. Things are not going to change for TTW--and Yoshi--
unless she gets some serious mental health treatment, and that treatment is not likely to happen
as long as she insists on having Yoshi with her. Throwing money at the problem through the generosity
of DU is not going to solve these problems.
One comment about what you posted: "going back to the Reagan bashing event when he 'let the nuts out of the loony bins'."
My husband worked with the psychiatrist who was responsible for bringing that model--community based care--to California when Reagan was then governor. Later in his life, the psychiatrist, Dr. Milton Greenblatt, regretted his involvement. Why? Because the community based care model never got adequately funded and through the years it has spread across this country with the same
result: too many people with serious mental health issues are going without adequate care and treatment and many of them do indeed end up homeless or worse, in prison.
The question is now, that with TTW in control of Yoshi and without adequate means of support, is there likely a situation
being created where, in fact, she IS a danger either to herself or others that would allow a judge to place her in an involuntary
commitment, and presumably, also place Yoshi with an Akita rescue? That question can only be answered by mental
health professionals who can interview TTW in person in order to make that determination. No one on DU--unless there is
someone with those credentials who can get to TTW--can make that determination. So, from my point of view, DU has done
all we can do to help TTW and Yoshi and we all now need to let it go.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)At some point. In the state where I live you don't have to be actively suicidal or homicidal to be involuntarily hospitalized. If your serious mental illness incapacitates you so that you are not able to maintain your safety that meets criteria. I'm not saying this is true for ttw. But based on her situation an evaluation is not out of the realm of possibility.
I've seen this situation 1000's of times which is why I've repeated she is at risk of having the whole situation taken out if her hands and she will have no control over what happens.
Again I dont know if she meets any criteria.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)what we're doing now and what was done in the past, i.e. snake pits.
I'm not referring to this case specifically. I don't know enough, although I have had experience with loved ones who exhibit the "yes, but" syndrome. Whenever anyone tried to help or suggest a productive solution, the reaction was always, "Yes, but..."
Years ago I took the advice of professionals and placed my son in what was called The Adolescent Pavilion. When I asked how long he would have to stay, the bureaucrat in charge told me it depended on his insurance coverage. Before the 48-hour window closed, after which I would have had to take legal action to retrieve him, we took him out against medical advice. That was ten years ago.
He has a job. He has friends and family that love him. Yet every time anyone suggests that he follow a different path, he agrees and then explains why he can't.
While we're alive he'll have a roof over his head and food in the frig, but we're resigned that he will be our responsibility for life.
I'm afraid that if forced to be on his own... I don't want to think about it.
I weep for people like TTW who have exhausted the patience of those who tried to help.
mnhtnbb
(33,100 posts)I have a friend--curiously enough in the Philly area--who has an adult son living with her
that she thinks is paranoid schizophrenic. He had been living on his own--after finishing law school
in Illinois and blowing through $1million--yes, you read that correctly--that his father (her ex-husband)
had given him. No job, evicted and forced to move to a dump, and she flew back to Illinois
and managed to convince him to come visit her in Philly. He did, and never returned to Illinois.
That's been about 5 years ago. His father refuses to have anything more to do with him.
He is still unemployed, up all night doing who knows what on the computer/internet, but manages
to function adequately at family gatherings. He absolutely refuses to seek any kind of mental
health treatment. My friend is the one who has been seeing a psychiatrist, learning how to
live with this son.
She, too, wrestles with what will happen to him when she is gone...she is my age: 64.
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)and in good health. The kids arrived after we had been married 20 years.
My little one was on her own at 20, sharing a house nearby with two friends. We help out occasionally, but she's relatively independent.
Our son, though, stays up all night playing computer games, has to be shaken awake to get to work and still refuses to get his driver's license. He's 25 and I'm tired of driving him to the comic book store. He has been to psychologists and psychiatrists and they can't seem to help with what appears to be lack of motivation. He also has a trust fund that we set up for him when he was born. He took control of it at 21. I gave him the papers to sign but didn't say anything else about the details. He'd blow through it very quickly if he knew how to access the account.
However, my situation is nowhere near what you have described re your friend.
We love it here in NYC but there will come a time when we'll want to relocate. Uprooting him may be a problem.
I've recently had our house permitted as a two-family and I'm making the renovations to have a rental apartment on our first floor which used to be our playroom/family room. Where we are an 800 square foot income suite is allowed. I designed the space to top out at 796 square feet. When we get a tenant (probably next month) I'll put him in charge of managing the rental. I hope to live to 100, but if not maybe the extra income, plus whatever cash we leave them will help him stay in the house.
mnhtnbb
(33,100 posts)if you live in NYC, though, it must be easy for your son to get around without a driver's license, isn't it?
Maybe it's time to stop offering rides?
I have a son who is legally blind--lost his sight at age 9 when it turned out he inherited a juvenile,
genetic form of macular degeneration--and yet he's never let his vision impairment stop him
from going after what he wants. (His sight is 20/200 and he sees with his peripheral vision). We are helping him with living expenses while he's in grad school at Yale School of Drama, funded by a very nice financial aid package. I was struck by what he said, one time in an interview with a journalist after he was awarded a scholarship for his undergrad years at UNC-Chapel Hill:
"everybody has to deal with something". Hmm...so, I, too, give rides to this 25 year old son when he's
here visiting (he's been here all summer, but going back to New Haven next week) but I've always
encouraged him to figure out using public transportation. Somehow, he manages to get around--
and even did so living on his own for a year in Berlin when he was there on a Fulbright scholarship--but you
can imagine how I felt letting him go when I took him to the airport and he flew off by himself to Berlin!
Yet for all his accomplishments, I worry about him--now hoping he'll be able to find a job when he's
finished with grad school--because he can't really even wait tables due to his vision (he tried and got fired after
less than a week) and wherever he ends up living/working, there will have to be good public transportation.
Everybody has to deal with something...
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)and self-motivated young man.
My son travels by bus and train occasionally, but nearly all transit here is designed to get in and out of Manhattan.
He works six blocks from the house and if I didn't drive him he'd never get there. I was on a business trip last week and he had to be at work at 11am. I started calling him 9:30... every ten minutes.
I'm certain your son will do just fine. I majored in theater (back when Nixon was president) and I've earned a nice living for the past 40+ years writing, producing and directing in a branch of the biz known as business theater.
mnhtnbb
(33,100 posts)helps to balance his impaired vision. But he just now told me this morning
that his NC ID card expired on his birthday and now he wants a ride
to the NC DMV to replace his card on Monday. He's known this all summer
and is flying back to school on Wednesday. Fortunately, he has his passport
with him or he wouldn't be getting on a plane Wednesday because the new cards
get mailed.
We just looked up what it takes to renew the ID--NC is making it VERY hard for people
to get picture ID's because they've passed a voter law requiring them--and he not only
has to bring his expired ID card but proof of his social security number! WTF? So, here
we are scurrying around to see whether we can come up with something to satisfy them (because
he can't find the original SS card, only a photocopy) and hope that what we have will satisfy them.
Oy.
Nice to hear you've made a living in business theater! He's in the Dramaturgy/Dramatic Criticism MFA
program at Yale.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)i'm legally blind w/o corrective lenses?
Response to meaculpa2011 (Reply #266)
mnhtnbb This message was self-deleted by its author.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Sorry for the rambling post but I have to use my text to speech app because my eyes are rather bad this morning meant to reply to your PM you and hubby are exactly correct and have diagnosed what armchair psychs me at me and ex hubby did up close. I have scores of PM's to get back to..... need to spend some time and answer you in full.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)But sometimes you can determine the depth of pathology by the size of the medical record. I think you can correlate that to the length of 2 threads about the same person in crisis.
mnhtnbb
(33,100 posts)take your time.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Sad state of affairs. Reality sucks sometimes.
Response to Aerows (Reply #150)
underahedgerow This message was self-deleted by its author.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)Agreed.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)deliberately misrepresent TTW, which is starting to seem like the habit of a compulsive troll.
I have not accused anyone of conspiracy.
I have defended TTW from other DUers who have accused her of her "conspiratorial", "paranoid", and "ridiculous" accusations of people on the DU forum wanting to take Yoshi from her by pointing out that there were many posts, including your own, suggesting that TTW give up Yoshi to Akita Rescue. And when she didn't, there was much harping about her "ignoring" your "reasonable suggestions.
That's a simple fact.
That TTW can read is another simple fact.
Demit
(11,238 posts)That's from your post #304 in the last long thread.
Edited to add your post #301: "Well there is a conspiracy on this board to steal Yoshi"
And a line from your post #318, the sarcastic "But, no, there is no conspiracy on DU to force TTW to give up her dog."
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)But here is the second definition of "conspire" according to Dictionary.com:
2. to act or work together toward the same result or goal.
Were you not all working toward the same goal of getting TTW to turn Yoshi in to Akita Rescue?
My point is, TTW read the messages correctly, and you guys are calling her crazy for it.
Demit
(11,238 posts)and then, when confronted with your own words, say you were only kidding in the next.
You accused members of DU of a conspiracy to "steal" Yoshi. To "take Yoshi away from her." You've been shown what you said verbatim, here and down thread. And here, accusing every DUer who participated in the threads of "working toward the same goal" is just more of the same. It's not humorous talk. It borders on crazy talk.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Why are you spending aaaaaaaaaaaaaall this energy on amassing evidence on my intent?
The facts are the facts.
Many people on DU posted advice to TTW to relinquish her dog.
You can't blame TTW for drawing conclusions that DU is against her keeping Yoshi when those are the facts.
All these other attacks on me are trolling to try to distract from the fact you were calling TTW crazy for being able to read.
Demit
(11,238 posts)To show that you weren't misrepresented. You make so many accusations against people you apparently can't keep track of when you are contradicting yourself. It wasn't a lot of work to find the examples.
By the way, I don't have a need to distract from calling TTW crazy because I never did.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Why? Why are you after contradictions? Why are you after evidence? Why are you even going into this?
What does that do for you? Are you just getting jollies out of it?
How does that help TTW?
Please explain.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Because you did. That's your explanation.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)It was obvious from the actual point I was making that I wasn't. You are just blowing a lot of smoke over this and looking for micro-evidence to troll.
Why?
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 8, 2015, 06:20 AM - Edit history (1)
Facetious is a useful word to describe something that's humorous, or meant to be humorous. If a joke falls flat, then you can back off from it by saying you're only being facetious. There are limits to this use of the word: if you stage an elaborate prank on your friend, making him run out into the street in his underwear because he thinks his house is on fire, calling the joke facetious will probably earn you a punch in the face.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/facetious
—used to describe speech that is meant to be funny but that is usually regarded as annoying, silly, or not proper
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facetious
not seriously meaning what you say, usually in an attempt to be humorous or to trick someone:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/facetious
trying to appear amusing and intelligent at a time when other people do not think it is appropriate, and when it would be better to be serious
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/learner/facetious
Maybe, just maybe daredtowork, you were looking for another word to use. maybe not.
Most appropriately would be for you to stand down. Just my very, very humble opinion.
It just seems as though you are attacking too many people who have truly done all they could, for not doing as much as you believe should be done.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Once again, it is a statement of fact to say that people on DU stated they wished TTW to relinquish her dog.
Once again TTW can read.
Once again it does not make TTW "ridiculous" or "paranoid" to be able to read.
The people who are swarming all over me have their own agenda, including you.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)word. That is all and I provided you with definitions of your word.
Now, do everyone a favor and take a rest. You are not helping TTW or anyone that has been on the Front Line trying to help them since Sunday. If I may be so impolte as to say, Sit Down and Shut the F up!!
Gosh, I am so sorry for losing my patience. Please forgive.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)better than I could have.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Too many good DU'ers have really put heart and soul into this. Very hard to stay silent. Please forgive.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)truth. It was obvious that the poster was confused about the meaning of the word "facetious".
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I grew up in a household where facetious and sarcastic were used interchangeably.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Please go give orders to someone else.
Certain people around here seem to need to have the fact suppressed that anyone reading DU threads that people were advising TTW to give up her dog and some were taking it upon themselves to try to block others from donating to TTW because she had "ignored" that "good advice".
And now there are multiple people who for some reason are trying to suppress this fact.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)All I am suggesting is that those closest to the situation be listened to. You, dear one are rampaging up and down this thread telling everyone how wrong they are.
I am going way out on a limb here and going so far as to suggest that you just might be out of place and in the wrong. Now please, take a chill pill and let it be.
Everyone involved are worried sick for TTW and Yoshi and you are doing absolutely nothing constructive or helpful. Please.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)These threads are usually started by people who want to help TTW and then invaded by people who are incensed their original "sensible advice" about Yoshi wasn't followed or they were run out of an earlier thread for trying to discourage TTW's gofundme efforts, and now they are back trying to "vindicate" themselves.
Just "going out on a limb" doesn't make you right either. You might want to go back and take a look at my actual record of who I've responded and objected to, and you will see it's focused on those who called TTW paranoid and ridiculous for thinking people on DU wanted her to give up Yoshi (and people who troll me for pointing that out). I have nothing but praise for msanthrope and her ex.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Go ahead, collect some of those quotes you're claiming people said and paste them here. Back up your claims. We'll wait.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)The repetition is fascinating, too. I'm sure it's convincing a lot of people!
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)removed from her possession for any reason. Not to take the dog from the dog pound or pay the dog pound fees for her.,
but to contact the Akita rescue and help them adopt the dog from the dog pound before its 3-5 days wait period is up.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I'm a tenant, and I've actually been in a very similar situation as TTW. That's why I've had much to say in regard to the resources TTW *really* has available and what she could realistically get done during that time.
It seems to me that TTW has repeatedly stated she does not want Yoshi to go to Akita Rescue, just took Yoshi from Akita Rescue, and there is even a group of people here apparently dedicated to suppressing the fact that TTW might have read on here that people wanted to send Yoshi to Akita Rescue (contributing to her over-reaction after msanthrope tried to help her). I would not want to be involved in that particular crusade.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)stickie point with some animal 'owners'.
Unfortunately for a dog in a dog pound, once the 3-5 days is over for the owner to pay the fees- the dog pound 'owns' the pet and can do what they wish with the pet.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)thread to be (I think) the way you meant it: not that there WAS a conspiracy obviously, but that from TTW's perspective that's how it would seem.
Same thing happened to me once: I was a student doing a hospital clerkship with a
psychiatrist and his fawning residents. We got called to evaluate a woman patient who was evasive and suspicious - kept saying "I don't wanna talk to you people; I know you're gonna jack me up; you're here to see about having me committed and I don't want that."
We left the room and all the psychiatrists shook their heads and agreed she was exhibiting paranoia - and needed to be committed for it.
I pointed out that her fears were actually pretty spot on, so if anyone was crazy it might not be her.
The outcome: they tore into me...and she got put away on a 72-hr involuntary hold... and I am proud to be the only student in the history of my school to be flunked on 3d-year psych 
.
So, I am sorry about the pile-on on this thread. I think it's all a misunderstanding, only some people get all primed for a fight.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I'm really worried too, I just don't know what we could do to help her?
Should we maybe set up a Go Fund me in her name, then with the funds, try to find a place for her and Yoshi?
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I've been following this and I think TTW is unable to be realistic regarding Yoshi. I know how hard it is having been in a situation where I had to give up an animal due to circumstances.
Now that she has been evicted finding an affordable place with a big dog is going to be very difficult.
What changed from yesterday?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Then she may be able to have the stability necessary to work on herself and her job situation.
I think at this point safe housing for both of them is paramount.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)If she had a home to go to where everyone would be safe that would be good but Akita's require certain things and I don't think Yoshi, without additional training and socialization, much less his size, is going to work out in anything more than substandard housing that will allow a big dog that is less than friendly.
Just my take on it.
I was hopeful for them both yesterday but this looks like a wreck now.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)If he gets put in a shelter, his chances of survival won't be so great, considering his temper. Not sure what Akita Rescue groups would do, since again, he is not properly trained. Besides separating TTW from her pet will not help her emotionally ( IMHO ).
I suggest if someone has the time, open a Go Fund me for her, and maybe we can rent her a place which accepts dogs in her area, for at least a couple months. That will give her enough time to bounce back
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Most rentals won't let you have anything over a certain weight and Yoshi is well over that weight limit. I don't see that happening.
I have no doubt Yoshi can still be trained but I don't think that's going to happen either. I'm a realist, willing to help but a realist and I don't hold out much hope for the two of them staying together.
It might sound mean but there it is.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I'm sorry you lost your dog, but just because you chose to give it up it doesn't mean someone else should make the same choice.
I'm a realist too, and I know that DU can help her get a place and help her with Yoshi's training. It's doable, IMO.
JI7
(93,123 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)she seems incapable to move/make decisions ( I don't know TTW personally, so my assessment is only a guess, from what I read happened in the past).
If DU could find a place for her in her area and pay the rent for a few months, I think that would help tremendously. And like I said I think it's doable.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)She's signed up for a temp agency but apparently no appreciable work has followed.
Nobody's even going to consider a rental application from a person with a recent eviction, without steady work, with a large dog of a notoriously difficult breed many insurance policies exclude. That's probably why she was grossly overpaying for the previous shitheap.
The dog needs to go to a specialist rescue before all of this chaos further deteriorates his behavior.TTW needs to go to transitional housing with a mental health focus.
The dog needs stability and TTW can't offer that now or any time soon.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)People have stuck it out and done a lot for TTW and Yoshi over a long period of time. Good luck, and I mean that sincerely.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)If the renter has a large dog???
Lmao!!!
I don't know what you're trying to do here, but good luck to you too.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I'll wait for you to show me a listing, just one where big dogs are welcome.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Because no one would take in her dog?? Wow.. If it wasn't illegal, I would make a Craigslist ad and prove it to you!
But I won't break the law only to satisfy your silliness. Have a nice life. 
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I didn't ask you to make an ad on Craigslist..I asked you to support your previous statement.
Also...
No a big dog is a problem even if you have the money because people won't rent to you especially if it's not trustworthy...
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Willing to rent to tennants with large dogs in Philadelphia and suburbs?? You are the one who said that, not me!
By your "logic" , everyone who owns a large dog must be a homeowner in Philly! 
Aerows
(39,961 posts)http://dogbitelaw.com/landlord-liability-for-dog-bites/liability-for-bites-by-dogs-upon-adjacent-property
That's where the hesitance to rent comes in. It's not a problem in a more sparsely populated area, but in the middle of a congested city, there are far too many opportunities for clashes that injure children or other people's pets.
That's just the facts.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Landlords want to know they won't be stiffed on the rent. TTW is presently a temp, apparently not even with steady gigs.
Second, many rentals say no pets, period. Some will allow cats. Some will allow dogs under 25 lbs. Many will charge a nonrefundable deposit to cover pet damage. Many will charge higher rent for having a pet, cat or dog.
Msanthrope said having been evicted will be an added strike against TTW as a potential tenant.
I guess it's possible she could find something in an iffy neighborhood, where a landlord might be less particular. But the combination of TTW's spotty income, difficult breed of large dog, and eviction record doesn't make her an ideal prospect. I don't think a large infusion of money upfront is going to change that.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Even an unfurnished place would do, as second hand furniture is easy to find.
The key is for her to have a place for her and her dog until she finds a job, and can find something more permanent.
This is the best I can come up with and no, I don't think her dog should be taken away. It may be the only thing keeping her "going".
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)It's not impossible to find a place to rent. It's just an excuse.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)for the specific dollars needed.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The OP asked for ideas to help TTW, so I gave my input.
Have a good night.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You can't be serious. Anyway, I have to go to bed.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)If you think it's so easy, do it.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Have a good night, Nikki.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Others who have time, and think this may work, can do it.
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)even from you.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)From a go fund me campaign. That is a nice start to get her dog into obiedience school and a bit extra to live somewhere for awhile. She is on her way it seems.
tblue37
(68,118 posts)JTFrog
(14,274 posts)See how that works?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Those sound like fine places for a dog......
dsc
(53,313 posts)but I do work at the local high school and used my boss, who is the principal and has been here for decades, as a reference. I would imagine that helped in that regard. I was also surprised that no check was made my last two places prior had done them. But you can find decent places that don't do checks they mostly are owners who only own a few units.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)My ex's last tenant was very surprised to find out that X had not run a financial check but has run a state police check..... that being said I did advise t/t W that owner occupied dwelling or small dwellings are given even more of the legal benefit of the doubt in Pennsylvania because they aren't considered to be a large business so if they want to deny her rental based simply on the dog or simply on the lack of of employment they can.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)was a long time ago, but the same type of work for your place to live opportunities are out there today.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Personally, wouldn't make any calls for her though.
xmas74
(30,020 posts)usually jobs in smaller care centers for the elderly, a few halfway houses, some waiver homes for MR/MI, even some small older motels will sometimes offers a room or very small suite as part of the benefits.
If only she'd had a bit more money and a better vehicle. The state parks here in Missouri allow people to live in campers/RVs, etc for up to three months at a time without paying lot fees if they do some simple work for the park. The work is usually things like collecting site fees, selling firewood, checking over the camp sites, etc. It's usually a job for retirees but you never know. My parents have an RV and will be retiring in the next few years. They plan on doing this-working part time in a state park for three months at a time in exchange for a paid site. After three months they have to pack up and move to another park They can even bring their dog, as long as he's licensed, has proof of shots up to date and isn't allowed to roam loose all over the park. They love the idea of staying in a spot for a couple of months and then traveling down the road somewhere else-perfect for them to see the sites for next to nothing.
dsc
(53,313 posts)if there was no proof of income or assets. All the places I have rented at have asked for a paystub or an account having the equivalent of 12 months rent.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
Lilith Rising
(184 posts)for yourself and your large, (perceived as) aggressive dog?
I did it just a couple of months ago and played hell finding a place - and I have a job, excellent credit and no evictions on my record. As it is, I'm paying around $150 more a month than I wanted to simply because I insisted on keeping my dog with me - but I could afford to do that.
Clearly you don't know what you're talking about.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Not all places check records.
You know the ones who don't check records? The same shit holes as the one she just got kicked out of.
Any decent place will at least want to know that the tenant has a paying job and won't skip out on the rent.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)Or find someone willing to co-sign the lease. And price renters insurance, just in case Yoshi gets nervous.
Do that first. Put a dollar figure to it and see how realistic you're being. Or disingenuous, take your pick.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Landlords want stable tenants. They don't want that uncertainty, or to be going through the hassle of looking for tenants all the time. You can go month-to-month after a year's lease is up, but the only situation I know of where you just move in and pay by the month would be a hotel.
They also will not rent to you if you don't have a job or other form of steady income. A bank account won't do. It has to be income. So, no job, no apartment.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)have rented all my adult life. I have always had pets and that has caused me difficulty in finding places. But I always had a job and good references. Landlords can overlook a lot, but not unemployment.
You seem to spend a lot of time telling everybody in this thread what to do and how to do it. I do not understand why you do not undertake all these great ideas yourself. It sounds as though you have all the answers. Perhaps you could find a place for TTW, get her moved in, and then you could come back and tell us all I told you so. But I think you are very unrealistic.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)size limits. Seems like only the really high end rental$ will allow large dogs and even those places limit.
Theres always craigs list for a room to rent, some would allow a large dog pet. The owner has to be responsible and use a large crate while they aren't in the room with their dog.
I don't think this person ever used a crate for their dog or they would have provided one when help was offered to foster the dog for her.
All the 24 hours of problems that happened would not have happened if the dog was used to a large crate.
mentalsolstice
(4,639 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)I don't think anyone here, let alone a group of us, should become legally responsible for renting an apartment for her and her big vicious dog. The house she was evicted from was seriously damaged from leaking water. We do not know the full story of what went on there or what the landlord was put through over the years.
I think maybe it's not a matter of just bouncing back. TTW seems to have a habit of being rather unpleasant (name calling at the very least) and ungrateful to people who try to help her. There was a case worker who tried to help her and then was called useless etc. Her siblings have tried to get her help. At one point one of them suggested she get in her car and keep driving south to a warmer winter climate. I think they might have been at their end of their rope when they said that.
It is not a sensible solution for anyone here to physically help. She did threaten legal action against the people who went out of their way to help her dog that she said was being abused at the Doggie Daycare - that she put him in. I'm continually puzzled by her decisions. For instance, said when she went to visit the dog at the day care she had had to shorten her visit with him because it was so hot outside and there was just cement for them to visit on. I would have gone inside with him or had him in the car and maybe drove him to a shady grassy area so he could get some exercise.
There are many things that TTW has done that have caused me to realize that she needs a special kind of help that cannot be provided for on DU. The very first thing that got my attention was that she blamed her landlord for being fired from her job - the hot water heater broke and instead of boiling a kettle of water for a wash she stopped going to work and was fired.
I think the best thing that we can do is somehow reach out to her family and maybe assist them in encouraging her to get the help she desperately needs.
beaglelover
(4,416 posts)she's going to continue spiraling down out of control and she'll probably give her dog an early death in the process.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)that TTW has a therapist and was on some sort of medication.
the meme about her rejecting help is coming from some fight with one of her family members, which might have been about committing her. I honestly can't remember that post - but I'm pretty sure that TTW was already "getting help" on her own.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Indeed it seems like she needs help, I have seen numerous suggestions ignored and I don't think she is in a place mentally where she can handle all of this stress on her own.
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)What about dog food too?
And Yoshi WAS in a shelter and was on track to go to an rescue group.
There is a point where you are not helping, but enabling.
TBF
(35,517 posts)Yes, exactly. I feel very bad that Yoshi is in the middle of this but I feel she will continue to use him as a bargaining chip. From what I've seen she wants unconditional money put in her "go fund me" account. When people do try to offer other ways to help they are getting burned. I thought perhaps we could donate to whatever rescue/foster Yoshi was put in, but I'm not donating to a random Go Fund Me. This is the Internet - who knows what her story really is.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)WOW!
Did you hear she was "assaulted" where she's staying now??
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)is "enabling".
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Night.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Say you're leaving but never do.
I look forward to your future fundraiser for Torch after you've found her an apartment.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Shrug and do nothing?
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Which is something, me a perfect stranger many states away, cannot provide. And after reading posts from people that have actually been in contact with her to help, I positive in my assessment. Her gofund me is still there, if people want to help financially, that's the option.
I will listen to the advice of people that have actually been in contact with her that say it's a futile attempt at help in her current state.
Kali
(56,598 posts)that everybody else do everything, including finding this magical house that will take her and her dog, no questions.
your brilliant idea and lack of any effort to even back up your claim is just exactly as helpful to her as shrugging and doing nothing. in fact it is even worse. if she read this and somehow thinks your "plan" is doable, she might get her hopes up only to be shattered by reality.
you don't have time to look up a few rentals you claim are so easy to get, yet you post for hours on DU? - stop posting overly emotional bullshit and back up your assertions. for once.
maybe you should move to PA, get a "nursing" job up there, rent a big house with a fenced yard that will take a large aggressive dog, and have her move in with you.
Response to Kali (Reply #122)
Post removed
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
this from the exit queen
and here again, claiming to be out of the thread and posting how many more times?
how many times have you said you were leaving DU?
your credibility is nil, and now you are demanding OTHER DUers find and fund a house what you assert will take a person with many problems, social and financial AND a large aggressive dog. pffftttt
you should go back to the baby in the washing machine thread or some woo topic. this is a complex situation involving a real person, not a place for your bullshit drama.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)a dangerous weapon. A dangerous, unpredictable, living weapon.
What homeless shelter would accept a client with a potentially vicious dog? What apartment building?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Why not keep him in a cage/crate???
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)because the Akita rescue -- not a kill shelter -- had already agreed to take him.
BUT they also told TTW exactly where Yoshi was, and how she could pick him up -- and she did. The only difference was that she picked the dog up from the shelter instead of the ex-s house. And from everything I've seen here, I can see why they wanted an intermediary for that transition.
P.S. Yoshi was miserable in his crate at the Doggie Daycare. That's why TTW wanted someone to save him.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And even rescues kill. I know that first hand, from volunteering for animal shelters here in central Fl.
I'm sorry, bit they could have kept their promise and house Yoshi, even though just in a cage. Surrendering him without his owner consent was messed up.
Kali
(56,598 posts)your reading comprehension is failing. the whole thing was posted yesterday.
you are posting overly emotional ideas that simply won't work, are irrelevant and nonsensical. you could have spent all this time looking for a house and a landlord that would rent to a person with a large aggressive dog, extreme financial difficulties, unsteady employment, and an eviction record. month to month.
c'mon get some sleep and then get searching for this magical property you assured us was there.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)at the shelter instead of at the ex's house? The shelter was required by law to retain him for his owner at least three days. So Yoshi wasn't at risk. Either the Rescue would take him, or TTW could take him back. She chose the latter.
Why did they leave him at the shelter? Maybe because it saved Msanthrope and her ex from having to have any more direct dealings with her. Which was probably a very wise decision.
They never intended or promised to house Yoshi if it meant keeping him trapped in a cage all the time. She knew that they planned on hiring a dog walker, and never told them that Yoshi would get aggressive on those walks.
His behavior, as bad as it already was, would have worsened if they had put him in yet another cage and deprived him of exercise indefinitely.
Your solution is no solution at all.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)None of this would be a prpblem if TTW would do the right thing for Yoshi. She refuses to do so.
TBF
(35,517 posts)In person I mean? Not just words on a keyboard - which anyone can write? I have given many donations to local folks - and even other parts of the country when a friend or relative can tell me "yes this person is really in a bind". But we also hear the "go fund me" cases in which someone pretends to have cancer and is just collecting money for themselves. That is why folks are hesitant here.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)and the Akita rescue would have fostered him with somebody experienced with Akitas.
I have two cats and a full time, stable job and finding a place to rent that is affordable and safe with pets is very difficult even in the best of situations.
roody
(10,849 posts)I gave a little to TTW, but I think her problems are way beyond what some money can help. She put her needs above her dog's needs. I will not give any more to her.
tblue37
(68,118 posts)spent. GFM doesn't show how much remains, just the total collected.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I checked yesterday when I contributed a small amount.
tblue37
(68,118 posts)I was responding to Moosepoop's post updating us on TTW's and Yoshi's condition.
I was so beside myself with worry over both TTW and Yoshi that I couldn't sleep the night after reading Moosepoop's thread, so I the next day I started the thread about Yoshi, hoping to get him rescued right away from an intolerable and dangerous situation. Msanthrope and her ex stepped up the same day to foster Yoshi, but they were not aware when they first took him in that he was aggressive and that he would be genuinely dangerous to the ex's other pets and to him and their child.
The serious danger he represented to msanthrope's ex, his other pets, and their child is why they had to take him to a shelter after all, although they really did not want to, and from what msanthrope says, her ex is completely broken up about it. I understand how he feels, because I would feel the same way.
But they were upfront with TTW and told her where they had taken him and and why. They also contacted an Akita rescue group so he could be transferred there from the shelter within the requisite time frame and retrained and then fostered if possible, since TTW is in a position where she really is not going to be able to take care of him or keep him with her--not until months have passed, if at all.
*When we first started trying to figure out how to help Yoshi--with donations to the GFM account and also with immediate rescue if possible from the daycare where his health and even his survival seemed to be at risk--many of us donated money to the GFM account, and that is how the additional funds were raised over that recent time period.*
Unfortunately, though, most of us were not aware of how complicated TTW's situation is and how difficult is will be to help her in a way that will really make enough difference. Msanthrope and her ex learned more about the situation from dealing directly with TTW and trying really hard to help her and Yoshi. They have done a lot--far more than most of us could do or would even consider doing--but all their efforts ended up being in vain.
One thing we have learned is that TTW needs much more than just money. Furthermore, even to get to level ground, she needs much more money than we are likely to be able to raise within a short enough time frame to properly rescue her and Yoshi.
I plan to continue donating as I can to her GFM page, because she will still need money for food for herself and Yoshi and for gas and other inevitable expenses.
But I fear that our ability to offer adequate assistance, financial or otherwise, is limited, and my heart breaks for both TTW and her precious companion, Yoshi.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I just wanted to correct any misconception about the activity of the gofundme.
I had contributed a small amount to the shelter Yoshi was at just the day before -- the same day that TTW pulled him.
I've donated enough to buy him a large bag of dog kibble. (6 weeks worth for my two, 140 pounds combined, dogs.)
I agree the small amounts dribbling in are insufficient. I'm also concerned that TTW will not now accept help or communicate with anybody who tells her she must give up Yoshi.
More than anything, she needs a stable home environment for the 2 of them long enough for her to get permanent employment (if there is such a thing these days) and get back on her feet.
tblue37
(68,118 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Better than a car, but even with a steady paycheck she won't be able to build any savings to move to a more affordable and stable place. I am really afraid her tendency toward anger and blame is going to work against her with people who would be willing to overlook her current instability and recent eviction and help with work or housing.
Even if it was 100% true (and I can't say I buy it myself) the "everyone else is screwing me" stuff is a huge red flag.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)that one common denominator in all her threads was her calling various people names and blaming them for everything. The landlord, the judge, the people that worked at the court. There was a social worker that she raved about in a good way, but a month later she was calling that person names too. She is on the outs with her family as well. I also read that she had a good friend in California who paid all her bills one month but I was unable to find any follow up on that or if that person is still around. I am not able to find all of the threads so may be I missed something. But it does seem that she takes no responsibility for her own predicament or choices. I had a friend like that once and it was the same thing, that every one was screwing her. It is very sad.
underahedgerow
(1,232 posts)disorder of sorts.
I don't understand how people continue to blame her for her actions when she is ill. This is a chronic problem the world over, the inability to circumvent the basic human right of free will, while protecting the person from themselves and their self destructive actions.
If she can get in for a psych eval, she stands a chance, but since she is quite high functioning at this point... it's difficult to force her into any kind of treatment.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I know it is common to love your pet irrationally, but that it not all that is going on here.
the idea that a few months rent will do it is naive. the cycle will continue until she gets help.
it is going to take more assistance and long term support. she has been refusing this for quite a while now. she has to want it.
i think many realized it a while ago, but some are still hoping a dog + more money is a cure all.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)One, make a lot of money in the city to afford living there or move to the country where it's manageable and the dog will love it.
onecaliberal
(36,594 posts)I'm worried about her emotional state. Someone needs to manage the fund for her definitely.
JI7
(93,123 posts)JI7
(93,123 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)With his current temper. I really don't blame her that she took him back.
roody
(10,849 posts)haikugal
(6,476 posts)
avebury
(11,186 posts)which is really sad.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I'm very sad about this.
beaglelover
(4,416 posts)She's brought all this upon herself. For an apparent 50 year old woman she has a lot of growing up to do before she'll ever get back on her feet. She also needs mental help obviously so she can become a functioning member of society again. IMO, of course.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)both the shelter and the rescue felt that Yoshi had an excellent chance at being rehomed.
when you claim that you know Yoshi didn't have a chance of being adopted and therefore TTW was correct to take him home what you are essentially saying is that an unadoptable dog ie ......one that is dangerous to humans is now on the street. In the care of TTW.
this is a dog you are claiming is un adoptable..... but apparently you support that dog being with TTW.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)apparently not in an AKITA rescue group that knows the breed in and out! 
Talking out both sides of her mouth once again.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)apparently is fit caretaker for a dog that is now unadoptable.......
no part of that sentence is true.......
Kali
(56,598 posts)looking for logic out of that one 
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Do you think Yoshi is adoptable in his current training state?? I said upthread that he should attend obedience classes.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)There are dogs that are not good around small pets and children. These dogs can still be trained and can be excellent pets. Not every dog is a laid back Lab. I know - I have Labs and a GSD. There are plenty of dogs that are adopted from shelters every fricking day that go to homes with the caveat that there be no small children or other pets.
Akitas are very smart and Yoshi, in a stable environment, could very likely be trained and rehomed. It happens all the time. Our GSD is on his fourth (and final) home. He is an awesome dog, but he needs a firm owner. His previous owner could not provide that. That doesn't make him unadoptable or untrainable.
The problem people who understand big dogs who get protective of their owners are saying here is that Yoshi could very likely bite someone trying to protect TTW. In that scenario, the dog never wins.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)You and your personal hate can go (elsewhere)
This is a thread to help TTW, and your personal melodrama is disrupting.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Is that you back off telling her whether or not she can post in this thread.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And I think DU can help both.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)You never helped. You never said you would help. You are now showing off once again. I do not trust you or your "trying to help". This is just another "show me" thread.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Actually I have, under anonymous! And wow at your personal attacks. I'm out of this thread. Take your attacks elsewhere, "txgal".
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)You are not a poster that has honesty. I'm sorry, but I don't believe you.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Go ask Luna Bell ( donated to her alone twice)
Your personal attacks are disgusting. Just like you were doing in DI.. It's pathetic. You're not even worth my replies.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Sounds logical.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Announcements for you to believe me. Those who are down like TTW need help, not vitriol.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)She needs serious help and I hope she gets it.
Your statement to talk to others you've donated to prove you donated to a third individual is ridiculous. I donate weekly to a women's shelter, but they don't know I also donate weekly to the food pantry.
And your proclamations that someone should do X, Y & Z, but you don't have the time to do it doesn't help. As an animal lover, you should realize that Yoshi is in a very precarious situation.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)Sorry, but your background here is not honest.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I don't donate to inflate my ego, I do what I can to help others.
Too bad you and your buddies had to hijack this thread and turn it into personal melodrama. Sad, really. But so expected from you.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)Not sure what you are willing to do. Looks like nothing, again... taking out both sides of your mouth.
Not shocked.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)Whatever. I don't care. You are not believable, never have been and never will.
Sorry you are upset about that.
LOL!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7055562
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Unwarranted personal attack, accuses DarkAngel of being a liar. Please hide.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Aug 7, 2015, 11:32 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: don't know the back story here, but this doesn't seem hide-worthy
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: People on both sides of this are getting way too emotional. Bottom line, I think most people want to help TTW and are frustrated because she seems to reject any type of help that isn't "Give me money no questions asked, then leave me alone until I hit you up for more next month."
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Good for you for defending the honor of a poor lost soul like darkangel. But you are yourself a liar for saying Tex called her a liar in this post you alerted on. In any case, darkangel doesn't deserve to be called a liar, no, because a person has to have at least some vague nebulous idea of what is going on to lie about it.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: OTT nasty, personal
Kali
(56,598 posts)just a fact anybody with a little time and the advanced search function can verify. hell. she said she was done with this thread and came back 4 or 5 times. that was a lie right there.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)The poor dog hasn't had time to settle. He knows something is up, and he is just reacting. I bet a week in a good shelter or foster home and he'd be miles better.
TTW is simply unwilling to do what she is best for Yoshi and herself. I've seen it before. She will not accept the situation and take realistic measures to improve it.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)You know, people that specialize in that specific breed of dog. People that would be prepared to transition Yoshi to a new home.
So instead you think it's better that a dog with a "temper" is out with, frankly, an unfit owner who knows where? It's been stated the current place she's staying is not safe, nor would the owner allow a dog.
If that dog ends up attacking our biting someone, he's guaranteed to be put to sleep. Going to a rescue was the best opportunity for Yoshi.
Person 2713
(3,263 posts)adopters aware of past ) Good rescues they can retrain . I will also say there are many well meaning but F'd up rescues I have encountered
avebury
(11,186 posts)just is not doing what is in Yoshi's best interest. If she is not in a position to support for herself and Yoshi in a safe manner then she should not have taken him back. Loving your pet means being willing to make the tough decisions when necessary to do what is in the best interest of the pet. She is being very foolish.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)That tww solved her housing issue and found a place to keep yoshi. We haven't heard from her, maybe some one outside of du helped them both. It seems like her immediate problem was getting yoshi back. She got him back. No one stole her dog, she put him in the horrible doggie daycare where and then she let misanthrope take him I assume knowing a child and other animals were present. No one snuck him to the shelter, she went and got him. I'm figuring she must have figured out a place for him and went and got him.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)The fact that Duers went above and beyond to try and help and are now being threatened for it makes me think that TTWs situation is beyond any help that we can give her.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Sometimes you sink so deep into it that you can no longer make good decisions, especially when it comes to decisions that make you sad or frustrated or angry even when it is in the best interest of another being.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)I was the most hopeful for them both yesterday, it really looked like they were both going to get the help they needed.
I think maybe this was the crux of the matter all along.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)How can she be helped? I don't see a way to do it, not in the long run.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Advice is probably not going to do much good. She needs help from a professional social worker to help her get the resources she needs in person. Even then, it's debatable at how much even a social worker could do. I fear that both she and Yoshi at best, will end up homeless in the long run.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)she had an actual, realistic plan to improve the situation. Right now her plan seems to be to ask us for money and to hope things get better. That's not a plan. I'm not willing to throw money down a hole, though. And that's depressing. I hat seeing this happen to someone. I really wish she would let people help her, and do what needs to be done.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)That doesn't mean that a little cash can't help.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)gwheezie
(3,580 posts)And at any point along the way if a small intervention like cash or a job comes along it can avert a crisis or the opposite one more thing can dig a deeper hole. My hope early on was a bit of money could have made a difference. At various points even prior to the eviction a small thing could have prevented this. However some people get so deep they can't see the hand up in front of them. Even this last intervention of yoshi going to a rescue could have turned things around.
Response to gwheezie (Reply #57)
Post removed
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Today her GFM acct at collected is $2400+ . So that seems if even the account was at zero on sunday, 1300 in and out, there is appx $1100 put into TTW's GFM acct since Sunday, the 2nd of August.
How much more shall we all give especially now that she's of the belief that all of DU is conspiring against her?
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)is absolutely beyond belief.
I mean, fine, yeah? Everyone can do what they please with their money.
But, good Lord. $2400 since Sunday August 2?
840high
(17,196 posts)worries me now is if she can't keep the dog in her room - will they both live on the street? Where will the dog be when she's working? This is really a horrible situation. I wish she had not taken the dog back just yet.
Response to Marrah_G (Reply #40)
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KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)I've made no bones about the fact I have two brothers who have serious mental health issues.
And several friends who are coping with the aftermath of being addicted to drugs/alcohol.
Until you hit bottom, you aren't going to accept help.
Until you hit bottom, you will screw over not just yourself but your friends and family and strangers.
It is really f*cking hard to watch somebody self destruct.
And a lot of times when someone in a family does the right thing and refuses to enable self-destructive behavior THEY become the "bad guy" for no longer playing along.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)IVoteDFL
(417 posts)For starters I am in MN. I love my pets more than just about anything. I truly do feel for TTW. TBH I would have done the same thing. I'm also working on getting out of a shit situation myself, but could donate at least $5 a week. I know it's not much, but if enough people are willing to help it might add up to something.
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)And we all have to work together ...
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)I don't think it would hurt but she is not going to do what other people expect her to do she will do what she wants, then people will get angry with her and stop helping and she can tell the next person no one wants to help her. She's going to do what she wants.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)1939
(1,683 posts)It dug him out of a hole and he paid off the loan and went on to have a successful life. Since then, i have tried to help others, but it seem my "Midas touch" has failed and they seem to keep on making the bad choices that got them into the hole they were in when I tried to help.
The only thing TTW needs is for DU to support her to the tune of 50K a year, then she might be all right.
missingthebigdog
(1,233 posts)They were all he needed to get a temp job at a local warehouse. That temp job turned into full time, and he has been employed ever since.
Sometimes all people need is a little help. This isn't one of those situations. TTW and Yoshi need a LOT of help. And we are out of our league here- both need professional help.
The first step is safe, stable housing. That is also the most challenging. If I were in TTW's shoes, I think I would want an RV or camper. Something small and secure, that could be parked inexpensively somewhere with access to basic needs.....
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)this person need her friends and family, not Internet free money hustles.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)They all have a siren song ...
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)And she was not in a good place in February, or March, or April, etc. Too stressed out to eat or sleep or work, according to her own statements.
Until you can provide help to address the problems that caused the homelessness, I don't think you can actually help her. My personal guess is that she needs a residential placement with mental health services to be in a safe situation for herself.
As for Yoshi - well, this is obviously stressful, and now the poor dog is ill. I don't think this is a vicious dog - it sounded like the behavior was pure pack dominance, but that is a bloody affair in nature. If this dog is out on the streets trying to create a defended domain, they are both in trouble. You have to assume that Yoshi loves TTW, and that her stressed state is causing Yoshi to try to defend her. A lot of dogs will do fine with a stable owner but become "vicious" when the owner is unstable. It's not a change in the dog, but in the circumstances. A dog like this does what it does, pretty much. What it is born and bred to do.
If you are going to try to do this, you need to plan on at least six months. TTW is not able to work, and will need money to feed Yoshi, pay for vet bills, and perhaps for mental health services. I believe she is getting food stamps and is on Medicaid, but I am not sure what type of mental health services she is getting or able to accept. She will definitely need someone to visit her at least three times a week and try to help her get more functional and less stressed.
But I believe it would be highly dangerous to try to do this. I will try to explain why.
I have taken "vicious" dogs and saved them. I don't think there are many vicious dogs, but most dogs will become "vicious" under the right circumstances. Under no circumstances would I ever let a dog displaying this behavior be around any other humans or dogs without being under complete physical control until I had gotten the dog to a safe place. I am very concerned indeed about the possible results.
Anyway, having done this, I am pretty realistic about what it takes, and I do not feel that Yoshi is going to be reliable under the circumstances. I am very worried about what is going to happen, and it is not because of Yoshi, but because of TTW's state. TTW is so stressed out that the dog is constantly getting bad signals, and after this recent episode, almost anything could happen.
If you want to save the dog, you need a permanent home without too much proximity to other animals/people, and constant care, supervision and training for six months to a year. It takes that long to establish basic trust and get the dog into success and competence mode. In her current state, TTW is not able to be that person. If she were not working, she might be able to handle it, but I think not. But if she is not working, what happens at the end of six months or a year? TTW is utterly unable to handle basic living at this point. She is in a terrific state of stress, and attempting to change anything or operate under pressure seems to cause her to utterly break down.
If you want to save TTW, I think the best thing would be semi-supervised living with mental health services. I do not see how these two sets of needs - dog and human - mesh.
I love dogs. I accept, because I must, that their lives are not as important as human lives. At this point I would opt to save TTW, if that were possible and if she would accept help.
I have tried so hard to be tactful over these months about the situation, but at this point I believe you are proposing something that is literally dangerous to other human beings out of pure compassion. No one is bad in this situation - not TTW, Yoshi, or those who have tried to help. But without developing some realism about this situation, I fear that very bad results might ensue.
Just to be absolutely clear, because I know a lot of people have no understanding of dogs - if you put this dog now without CONSTANT supervision in a situation with any other animals, Yoshi will kill any dog who won't take second place, and will probably kill any random animals wandering around. Further, a human will have to fight for months to gain real control over the dog, because first the dog will have to believe in the human. These aren't dumb animals.
If you put this dog into a new home with TTW in which TTW and the dog are exposed to other people, and TTW responds with the type of reaction toward other humans which she herself has described several times, there is a very real chance Yoshi will attack the other person. Yoshi won't do it because Yoshi is vicious, but after two or three weeks, Yoshi will decide this is the new territory to be defended, and that it is absolutely imperative to run off anyone who looks dangerous or who appears to be causing a bad reaction in TTW. Because after all, what just happened was horrific, and it must not be repeated.
Okay, so if someone is coming to visit TTW and trying to help her get her life in functional order, that will require bridging from one stressful situation to the next. Basically you take each thing TTW can't face and help her work through it in a controlled fashion, and eventually the stress fades on that activity, and you go to the next. Now you've got a dog watching this, and sensing TTW's reaction. You show up, TTW gets stressed. A week, two weeks, and Yoshi isn't going to let you in the door, and even if TTW orders Yoshi down and lets you in, when her stress builds up, Yoshi's going to go for that dangerous intruder. Not because Yoshi is vicious, but because Yoshi has had months and months of worry and concern, and then disaster, and then he's just getting TTW in better situation, and you are the enemy attempting to walk in on TTW and invade her new safe territory, and YOU ARE THE ENEMY AND YOU ARE GOING DOWN.
That's the truth. The problem here is not that you have a vicious dog. You have an irrational human under great stress and a RATIONAL dog who does not understand the source of the stress, but observes associations carefully. That's a recipe for DISASTER.
So if you really care about TTW, don't try this. I am very sorry, I don't know what to do. If TTW would surrender the dog and we could get her into some safe living situation with assistance, we could try to help her. But I would never, ever contribute to what you are trying to do, because I believe it is tantamount to driving very fast while drunk. You don't know just when or exactly how the crash will happen, but you do know it's NOT GOING TO END WELL.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Very well reasoned and I totally agree with your assessment.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Kali
(56,598 posts)
betsuni
(28,651 posts)There's one of those massive Akitas in my neighborhood and whenever I see it being walked I get chills. I'm not afraid of any other big dog but that one. That massive head and jaw -- I can't look at it without imagining my head in that jaw, crunching down on my little skull like a potato chip. And it has that cold personality that some Akitas have, like there will be no barking or second thoughts, you are going down, crunch.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)Yoshi is doing what his breed does... he loves TTW and if she is stressed, he is stressed and he is going to do whatever it takes to protect her.
I have a beautiful german shepherd dog, he is a total goofball - not at all the "regal" looking dog you thing of when you picture GSDs. But the minute he picks up on any stress (stress I don't even realize I have because it is so minor) he snaps instantly into guard dog mode. It is amazing, and reminds me to watch my reactions.
Now picture Yoshi...with an owner he loves who is under constant stress and emotional strain. He has got to be on guard 24/7 without down time. That is not a healthy situation for anyone - human or animal.
What is best for him is to go somewhere quiet, safe and stable. And what is best for TTW is to focus on herself. How can she do what she needs to do for herself if she is also worrying about Yoshi? Trust me, I KNOW how much she must love him and right now with everything going to crap around her (for whatever reason) I can see why she wants him and needs him. But the best thing for him is to be away from her situation...at least for the time being.
A stressed dog that attacks doesn't get a second chance.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Very like. In other ways they are like terrier/mastiff mixes, with the hunting instinct, not that a GS doesn't have it. The mastiffs are awesomely stubborn even in comparison to German Shepherds, who are hardly pushovers. The difference is that mastiffs are passive-aggressive with people, and Akitas are purely aggressive. They probably will growl once as an order to back off, and then, BAM. And they will probably finish the job.
I love German Shepherds, and I have a rescued Alapaha Blue (kind of an old-breed bull dog that's native to the south). Classic mastiff and a very good stock dog. And the thing is that all these "dangerous" dogs are working dogs. They are great dogs! But they are never just fuzzy companions - they are always doing their jobs, and if you can't convey to them what their assigned job is in a consistent manner, they will default to their instinctive job.
What people don't understand is that these dogs are very intelligent, very alert, and very, very much with you. Mentally and emotionally with you. These dogs need stable owners. They also have their own judgment. If they sense a threat or even uncontrolled circumstances in which a threat MIGHT arise, they are constantly scanning. They will be obedient until they feel the situation is out of control, and then they will act to preserve safety. They're not vicious - but they are guard dogs. And Akitas are also hunting dogs.
Akitas are also the top-doggiest top dogs I have ever encountered. It's in them. The territory thing is the most important thing people have to understand about these dogs.
Yoshi, in the wrong circs, might literally take out the meter reader, not because Yoshi is vicious, but because he's getting the signal that TTW is in danger.
What has TTW told us about herself? She has gotten furiously angry with all those who have tried to help her. She's rather territorial herself. She's having acute anxiety. What an awful dynamic.
You know what I have done that's worked well with my rescued problem dogs? First, regardless of the breed, I always walk the territory until they know it and are very comfortable with it, because a dog needs time to calm down, and most of these animals have to have a safe space to cycle down. And then I train them to watch for threats. They may be mythical threats, but I'll find potential threats for the dog to sniff out and alert that really are present. And I teach them that once they've alerted, they have succeeded! There are ecstasies of relief! We are saved now that the large spiders have been detected lurking in the corner of the porch and I have been alerted about it! Thank you! Thank you! Everything is all right now!!!! I know about it and so YOU HAVE SAVED ME.
And then, once we are doing stuff together and they've sort of got the concept, I put them through search and rescue training. Works like a charm, even with the most nervous dog with an abuse history and past aggression. Because then, they default to the job of "rescue" if they are alone or encounter uncertain circumstances with people. They first start looking for the man down, and then they're trained to find and alert the nearest standing person. I have been stunned by how well that has worked.
But in this situation, I see no hope. It hurts to admit it, but I don't see any hope right now for them together over the next few months. I know TTW loves Yoshi, and needs Yoshi. And I know Yoshi loves her. But right now?? NO. Right now neither of them can rescue the other. That's an awful truth.
TTW is not able to tell herself what to do, and so she will not be able to tell Yoshi what needs to be done. It is that simple.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Natural that they would remind you of German Shepard's and Mastiffs. Both of those breeds were used to keep the Japanese Akitas a viable breed. There was the American Akita and Japanese Akita. Helen Keller owned two of them.
Not a "goofy lab"!! An amazing dog requiring a tremendous skill set to care for. Period.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)I truly feel badly for TTW and Yoshi.
I feel badly for all the people that have gone so many extra miles to try and help over the course of the last 6 months.
Over the course of the last few days there has been an extreme amount of love, compassion and caring that I honestly can't say I have seen at DU since Andy. I do believe that the ones that were most directly involved should be listened to. They have the most knowledge of the situation.
Msanthrope, her ex, TexasGal, MoosePoop, OmahaSteve, just to name a few that have been through the most and tried the hardest, I believe the rest of us should listen to them.
To the du'ers that have weighed in with so much experience in mental health issues, in caring for Akitas, your insights and experiences are invaluable as well.
Yo mama, your post is especially enlightened! Thank you.
I am hoping for the best and worried sick for them both...
Again to especially msanthrope and her ex, amazing effort, try to get some rest. I am so glad you all are safe.
Ms. 7wo7rees
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I hope the people who have been accusing the rest of us of heartlessness, insensitivity and being judgmental cut us some slack in the future.
Donations are not generous when they aggravate a patently obvious problem.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)And rent her a place near where she lives. If I had the time I would set it up myself, but I don't at the moment. I would of course contribute, as probably many here. Shrugging and putting her dog in a shelter is not the best DU can do for both TTW and Yoshi.
REP
(21,691 posts)somebody ought to do all that but not you because you don't have the time. lol.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)
The best part of this thread is you jumping all over two posters who actually have tried to help.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)People that have actually been personally involved in this saga...being schooled by a known drama queen on this board.
Insulting and insane.
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)you can set that up. Go on - be a hero.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Could be more to your name "darkangel" ???
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Now that you're on temporary time-out from DU, you surely have the time.
What's stopping you?
Sid
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Let the handful who have been trying to help her directly continue to do so if they are comfortable in that role. Throwing money at the issues hasn't worked. It's time for some other approach or intervention.
janlyn
(735 posts)Having now gotten the back story, her behavior is very much like my sister. My sister has the the developmental age of a 12 year old. And a mean and spiteful one at that. Our family has given up in helping her, and like my sister TTW is a grown adult, and cannot be forced to seek mental help. It is a sad state of affairs for TTW and Yoshi, but after hearing how she has threatened those that have been trying to help her, i worry about them.
My sister asks for help, but doesn't really want it, what she wants is attention and if she is helped she finds a way to screw it up. Because for her the end goal is to create drama and attention and not to get help.
Unfortunately the more I read about TTW the more it reminds me of my sister. I love my sister with all my heart, but she is destructive.
I would caution my fellow DUers to keep themselves safe if they offer more help to TTW.
Response to janlyn (Reply #120)
CountAllVotes This message was self-deleted by its author.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Anyone who remembers that saga knows that the best intentions of anonymous strangers aren't enough when the person has more than just an economic life crisis. I don't pretend to know the underlying reasons for TTW's crisis. I can only observe that the pattern looks very similar to what transpired with bobbolink--lots of help offered, some help accepted, other critical help rejected, and ultimately the poster bobbolink just went away from here altogether.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)TTW needs access to community agencies and supportive resources.
If she is on SNAP or a social services program, she needs to know where to turn when they mess up.
She needs to find something like a "life coach" that can find and coordinate services for her.
If at all possible, it would be great to put Yoshi somewhere where TTW could eventually reclaim him. TTW can't take care of him right now, but I think it's too much to ask her to give him up to unknown circumstances on top of everything else.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)I am really confused why everyone is having an issue now...all of this has been going on for MONTHS!
Where where YOU in February?
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I get confused on the date because some people were stretching back the time TTW was asking for rent.
Anyway, I was very busy trying to talk to TTW in the background, trying to translate her post to people, and trying to talk to other people on DU on her behalf.
I was not asking people to give her money, I was trying to find someone who could help her research resources and who could intervene with helping her manage the situation.
Texasgal
(17,235 posts)that is something none of us would know...right?
Excuse me for not believing you either. There have been plenty of people that have been personally mentioned with this issue. Look up TTW's threads.
I find your issue with the whole "conspiracy" to take Yoshi ridiculous and insulting.
Your word means nothing to me at this point.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)And Omaha Steve looked into her at my request so she would have an "old DU member" to vouch for her.
You can go back to check for yourself, or you can just start "choosing not to believe". Your starting to sound like ShielaT, there.
And I have not ONCE said there was a conspiracy to take Yoshi. I have replied to YOU already to say I have been following up on people who have accused TTW of "conspiratorial", "paranoid", and "ridiculous" thinking that people on DU were trying to take Yoshi away from here, when they WERE posting advice to give Yoshi up to Akita Rescue and harping on TTW when she "ignored" their advice.
That is not creating a "conspiracy theory". That is stating a fact that people posted advice that they wanted TTW to give up Yoshi. TTW correctly interpreted that a number of people on DU wanted her to give up Yoshi. How is that a "conspiracy theory"? That is simply TRUE. What else was the "sensible advice" TTW kept ignoring if it wasn't to take Yoshi to Akita rescue?
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)If you read what I SAID in any of those comments, I was describing the factual situation of people wanting to remove Yoshi from TTW.
How can you all spend a thousand threads complaining that TTW "ignored" all the "sensible" advise about giving up Yoshi, and now call her crazy for thinking that people on DU were expressing that sentiment?
This is overwhelmingly a matter of fact.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)"I would not downplay the conspiracy on DU at all."
"I just want to affirm that TTW is not paranoid about DU: there is a conspiracy to take away her dog here"
"And if she's raving about a conspiracy to take Yoshi away from her: well that's true."
That's not being "facetious".
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Since TTWs first post people have given TTW the advice to take Yoshi to Akita rescue. That has been when they were being nice about it. There have been more explicit statements about giving up the dog. ShielaT blamed the "vicious dog" as one of the causes of TTW's troubles.
From TTW's second post people began to harp on how TTW would always come back for rent money, and how it would do no good because she was "ignoring" good advice. Akita rescue came up again and again. Many people opined on what was good for the dog over what was good for TTW.
Rinse and repeat.
During this last misadventure with TTW there were several professed "skeptics" who repeatedly claimed that TTW had "ignored good advice" - that advice being to give Yoshi to Akita rescue. When msanthrope's Ex did exactly what TTW had elected not to do and turned Yoshi over to a rescue organization, TTW flipped out...and then I saw LUDICROUS remarks ridiculing TTW for believing that the DU forum had conspired to remove Yoshi from her.
Yes I am being facetious! And incredulous! And outraged that people can so blatantly deny the facts and reality of the situation.
Yes, people on DU have barraged TTW with advice about relinquishing Yoshi, and they have punished her for not taking that "sensible" advice by trolling her GoFundMe threads and saying she must be scamming since she didn't give up the dog as they advised.
This is just a fact. TTW read these statements correctly. These are facts.
And now to mock TTW for drawing the conclusion that people on the DU forum are against her staying with Yoshi?
COME ON!!!
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)Several times.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Not because I believe that there is an actual conspiracy afoot, and anyone who is reading my posts can tell all I'm doing is pointing out that people were, indeed, posting in favor of TTW relinquishing Yoshi.
Anyone looking for "evidence" to make anything else out of that is just trolling me, TTW or both.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Thank you. I was going to log off, but I received more trolling from Texasgal, in form of PMs this time.
Anyway, thank you for speaking up.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)The ex- thought he could keep Yoshi long enough for TTW to get on her feet, based on an inaccurate description of the dog. It was only after the ex- got him that he realized how aggressive -- and dangerous -- Yoshi was.
Would you hand over a loaded gun to an out-of-control, mentally ill person? The ex- arranged for the dog to go to the shelter and informed TTW how she could get him back. There was no effort to steal the dog from her, but there was probably a hope that she might just leave him there.
She didn't. So now this unstable person is walking the streets somewhere with a potentially aggressive dog that she's unwilling to part with. What a sad situation.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I have volunteered in animal shelters and I'm familiar with how small dog cages are.
Are you telling me he couldn't buy a cage and keep Yoshi there???
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)and then realized he had a vicious dog on his hands.
And no, he didn't want to buy a cage to keep the dog in. He still would have had to deal with the dog's exercise needs, among other things. And since the dog was huge and couldn't be trusted around people, he couldn't be walked outside, either, even by a professional dog walker.
If you have volunteered in shelters then you must realize that dogs can't be cooped up in cages all day with no ability to exercise.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)gets back on her feet? Brilliant idea. That will only add to the dog's anxiety, making him more dangerous. Msanthrope's ex should not be expected to deal with a situation in which he (and others) could be harmed (e.g., removing the dog from said crate to go outside and do his business). Yoshi belongs with a reputable Akita rescue group. Dogs used in fighting can be rehabilitated, and based on the info msanthrope has shared, Yoshi doesn't sound as if he's too far gone. He just sounds as if he's being an Akita. He needs stability and a positive environment.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I think it's heroic what msanthrope and her Ex tried to do. I posted that it was "completely understandable" that the Ex took the dog to the rescue. I'm not blaming him for what he did.
What I'm pointing out is that TTW is not "ridiculous" or "paranoid" when she thinks people on DU wanted her to relinquish her dog. I don't think it helps matters to exaggerate how "crazy" TTW's reaction was.
I also agree TTW can't take care of this dog, and I think this is a terrible situation because with her trust broken like this I doubt TTW will relinquish the dog again. I hate to think what will happen next.
But now people have gone from trolling and misrepresenting TTW to trolling and misrepresenting me, it seems.
(Not that you are trolling me - but there are a couple of people who are dedicated to just hunting down for everyyyyyyyyy little wording inconsistency they can find, just the same as what they did to TTW. The lowness of people's souls is really beginning to piss me off.)
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)There doesn't appear to be any good solution, despite the best of intentions.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)that TTW gets in her car with her dog and has someplace to go. (A relative's house? In the country?)
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)That wasn't a choice she appeared interested in.
And her relatives are not an option. Probably they already knew that the dog was a problem.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)At that point TTW was still attempting to stay in her home and not be evicted.
But I would also have some questions: if a stranger invited you somewhere, would you go? Was it a man?
Also, as I pointed out elsewhere, there was an incident on Daily Kos where a woman and her dog accepted a similar invite to rural Maine - then the person told them the invite was "only for one month". Suddenly they were in rural Maine with much fewer prospects. There are more prospects near urban Philadelphia than rural North Carolina. I would resist going home for the same reason.
What if the person had pets and discovered Yoshi was "too much" after TTW got to North Carolina?
It bothers me how TTW is represented as resisting "good choices" when she might have reasoned them out very well like I have above. She was having to choose from a lot of bad choices really. Her top choice was to move to a new place with Yoshi, but she needed first/last/month rent and a regular job first - i.e, to be in a more stable place first. Perhaps that was impossible, but I think people made it a lot less possible by not respecting how TTW was making her choices.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)with a stressed-out, aggressive, and very large, strong dog -- and no shelter or apartment building or ordinarily cautious person will want to take a chance on taking them in.
My son is looking for an apartment, and almost all of the listings say, "no pets." Even the ones that do take pets wouldn't take an aggressive, growling dog weighing over 100 pounds.
You are right though -- she made a rational choice not to give up everything to take a chance on a message board helper living several states away. But she is not being rational when she thinks that she can find a place that will take the two of them, if she can just collect a couple months worth of rent.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I hope many people can see now why it was so hard for her to "just move".
I agree her chances of saving up enough money and getting hired full time from her temp assignments are just about nil under the circumstances.
Buried in the threads above are several rants about how the real opportunities to help TTW were many months, if not years, ago. There should be more social services for people who are at risk for homelessness, not just for people who are already homeless. There should be more efforts to keep mentally ill people in the home they know. There should be more wrap-around services for people who have been unemployed for over a year and request them.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)Not NC.
Charleston is a large tourist city with plenty of opportunities for bartenders - TTW's line of work. It's not rural.
And FYI, there are many large cities in NC too. The Carolinas are not all rural lol.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)But being from Virginia, I'm fairly familiar with that area of the country.
The larger point, though, is TTW is an autonomous person who is factoring in a lot of reasons that are appropriate from the point of view of her particular situation. People from the outside often impose what seems logical from their situation: they can't possible know all the factors. TTW tries to tell us as many as possible, and then we get a very long post with "too much information". What it boils down to is she has her own priorities that she is taking into account.
If she did have some sort of case manager there, they could help give her feedback on *her* priorities. However, criticizing and judging her priorities from here does nothing. Those are YOUR priorities that you are imposing: those often come with imagining that TTW *should* be out looking for a job when she's busy dealing with her legal matters and *should* be looking for resources when she should be looking for a job and *should* be dealing with legal matters when she should be looking for resources and *should* be keeping DU updated simultaneously while doing all this. When one's only lifeline to resources are involved, this sort of judgement gets internalized and just adds to the problem.
Who knows, maybe that South Carolina offer is still good, and TTW is on the phone contemplating moving a few hundred miles to throw herself (and her dog, which may be rejected) on the mercy of a stranger right now. All we know is given her choices before, she wasn't ready to make that move.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)but I'd be very surprised if that offer is still open.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)that the person wasn't familiar with Akita breeds also and/or had other pets. So something would go wrong soon after TTW got there.
Also TTW's mental state is probably a lot more degraded having actually gone through the eviction and lost most of her personal possessions.
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)We have bars all over the place here. It's not just farms.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)I think a lot of posters on here think we're just a bunch of farmers on isolated plots lol.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)never blamed the vicious dog as a cause of her troubles. I did point out that very early on TTW all but bragged that Yoshi would attack anyone who came on to the property if she weren't home, and even said a plumber was not willing to work there if the dog was there but TTW wasn't.
I suspect that Yoshi has never been properly socialized and that's what Msanthrope and her ex discovered when they -- out of genuine goodness -- took the dog in for a while.
Meanwhile it is absolutely true that TTW ignored perfectly good advice from the beginning. Suggesting she give up Yoshi was actually not often mentioned in the beginning. I don't think anyone has trolled her GFM thread -- is that even possible? -- and the suggestions of scamming actually came from the fact that she kept on coming back, quite regularly, begging for money. She had a very lengthy story about her woes, none of which were ever her fault or responsibility, turned down more than one offer to house Yoshi, and I think even at least one offer to her with a place to live. She did, according to her, have a friend from California pay off a bunch of stuff, and yet she stayed in her place that, according to her, had been essentially uninhabitable for years. There was never a lot of logic to what she said.
For those of you not familiar with this lengthy odyssey, here are links to the first four, and only the first four, of at least thirteen threads devoted to TTW and her situation.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026597184 Apr 30, 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026473464 Apr 5, 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026442802 Mar 31, 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026221474 Feb 13, 2015
Please read through them, those who think we who are skeptical are simply heartless cynics. Notice all the times she doesn't respond to good and useful suggestion, the times she totally freaks out over her situation. Her inability to navigate GoFundMe or Paypal. Her blaming her losing her job on her landlady. And every time she simply came back with a request for more money. That's the mark of a scammer.
However, I no longer think she's as much of a scammer as someone who is mentally ill. Her taking Yoshi back and her lashing out at Msanthrope who had tried everything in her power to help, indicates that.
In the end, as sad as it sounds, there really is nothing we can do as a community for TTW. If someone here were willing and financially able to rent her an apartment for the rest of her life, that would be a great kindness, but it's not very likely to happen. And even if that kind and generous person existed, I suspect that somewhere down the road TTW would stir things up, create enormous drama, because that's the main thread of her life.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)"Maybe that's because of the vicious dog?" In the course of discussing why her her relatives weren't able to help her.
I do appreciate your initial reticence. There are a lot of scammers out there. Daily Kos had a pretty infamous one: "Suddenly Homeless". He really ticked me off because I felt he was riding on the tails of some of my posts about welfare. At the same time I was never sure what he was doing actually constituted a scam as well. Perhaps he was just doing what he had to do because he was poor, though he wasn't technically homeless.
Anyway, I actually agree with almost everything you say in the last two paragraphs. The one thing I'd like you to reconsider is that while you think TTW creates a lot of drama to avoid personal responsibility, perhaps her poverty also creates more extreme or emotional situations than they do for people who do have more of a financial cushion. I remember TTW's story about the landlady costing her a job: the water (including showers) didn't work in her apartment. Perhaps some of the blame-shifting is stuff TTW genuinely shouldn't be blamed for? That's the sort of stuff that drives people on the bottom into mental illness. If you have a job and a stable place to live, you can tell all the people trying to shift (inappropriate) blame to you, just to shove off.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)with why her relatives weren't willing to help her, which only came up in the first two, maybe three threads.
If you haven't had a chance to, read through those first four threads. I could post the rest, or I could PM them to you if you ask me. Her poverty is a recent issue. She (supposedly, and I say that because we can only go on what she told us) worked, earned lots of money, apparently as a stripper and then as a bartender until relatively recently. Trust me, I don't look down on someone who strips for a living. Or tends bar. If you're supporting yourself and it's not illegal, it's a good job. (Personal note: I have a son, a college graduate, cum laude from a good private college, who delivers pizza for a living. He loves what he does, he supports himself, he doesn't ask his parents for money. I don't judge anyone by their job, please believe that.) But then, according to her, she lost her hot water, causing her to lose her job, which she blamed specifically on her landlady who refused to fix the hot water problem because it apparently never occurred to TTW that she could boil water on the stove to wash with. So either she stopped going in to work or she showed up looking pretty sketchy, and was fired. After that, no one would hire her. No one. For any job whatsoever.
I have no patience, in normal circumstances, to that last claim. There are always jobs out there. Yeah, most of them are crappy. Fast food, retail, but it's far, far better than nothing. Hell, all the people who claim that they have to take SS at age 62 because they can no longer find work aren't bothering to notice that retail or fast food will probably pay as much as the early SS, and they can let SS build up, but that's another discussion entirely.
It's amazingly enlightening to read through the threads, which I did just yesterday.
I think the drama comes because perhaps she's the sort of person who creates it in the first place, or perhaps her deteriorating mental state (mental illness?) contributes.
I can't diagnose at a distance. I have my own notions of what's wrong with her, but I'm not a clinician and I've never met her in person. Here's the thread that may shed a lot of light on this whole thing:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026748167
She started it, then she shut it down by deleting the OP, which I have no way of recovering. Make sure you read post 272, the one hidden by jury decision. That is not a mentally stable person.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I did see the stripper remark that the "skeptics" kept posting. But TTW also made other remarks relating to having to change into a uniform and a job at a pharmacy. It's possible she's just in an exhausted stressed condition (she's mentioned little sleep) and frequently loses her job. Once you lose your job so many times, it may be hard to get work again. Also, even people hiring for "retail and fast food" might hire by stereotype and prefer certain types of hires. In high school I could never get a job as a waitress because people in my own home time regarded me as clumsy. After college I tried to get a stop gap job and discovered I was already considered over-qualified: I tried to work in two record stores, a video store, and a sci fi novelty shop before I retreated into temp work myself. IMHO, those employers do look at you and make a judgment about whether you are right for the job - and the older you get, the worse it is.
I think the test of your drama theory would be whether TTW would behave the same way if she were well off, had a stable place to live, and has treated with a modicum of respect by those around here. IMHO, drama comes out of an interpersonal dynamic. But since TTW is at the bottom now, we'd both agree she's in a place of almost absolute drama now.
IMHO, again, the only real help for TTW is a good case manager who can organize things with her, help get her in stable housing, and keep tabs on whether she gets and can hold down a stable job. I'd hope she is establishing a good relationship at a medicaid medical clinic (which can establish a trail of documentation for her) as well.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)and I've read through all of the earlier threads multiple times.
What stands out, to me, is her complete defensiveness against the entire world. Her blaming of everyone else but herself that all of her problems are caused by others.
I have likewise done what you call stop gap work, and all sorts of entry level work. Entry level jobs really aren't that hard to find. If you're willing to do them. Even my brilliant astrophysicist son has worked fast food. And a year or so later, when he went back to the fast food manager for a reference, the manager clearly indicated he would happily re-hire my son.
One way you get these crappy entry level jobs is to make much of your work history disappear from your resume. That's not very hard, although it doesn't seem to occur to many people.
I may be wrong, but I don't think TTW needs a good case manager. I'm not sure what she needs. If there's medication for her condition, that would be very helpful. Except that all evidence indicates she would not hold still for an appropriate diagnosis and prescription.
Sometimes people are really are beyond help. I'm sadly afraid that's the case with TTW. It's even sadder that Yoshi, a genuine innocent in all this, is going to suffer.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Most medications that would calm TTW down would also zone her out and still give her cognitive problems that would make it difficult to work - it's not like the meme of "taking a xanax". This is not the kind of thing either of us are qualified to diagnose, much less prescribe medication for, much less understand the side effects of such medications (which are vast).
One thing you might want to reflect on is whether you might be a tad resentful of the minimum wage jobs that you have have taken and/or your son has taken: you seem to keep projecting on other people being unwilling to take them even when they are. Regarding TTW's other job, the main thing I remember is she needed a uniform for it. Just the fact TTW was even still trying despite the fact she had a legal case and eviction hanging over her head (let alone people on DU demanding updates) seemed admirable and worth supporting to me: but you seem to have it in mind that she's trying to get out of delivering pizzas...?
I also think I remember TTW mentioning something about paralegal training, though I haven't seen any reference to getting a job that uses those skills. I would be curious if Msanthrope's Ex, on first impression, thought she should get such a job.
I'm not sure what you mean by "beyond help": if someone is that "beyond", I doubt they could hold down a job, and they would probably end up homeless. The alternative to that is working with good case management services, though it doesn't seem like you believe in that.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)probably don't recall everything, despite having read through all the earlier posts multiple times. I'm also not recalling a job that needed a uniform. Again, I probably don't recall everything, even though I read through all the threads several times.
If she can't keep a job, despite the circumstances, if she can't provide for her large dog from a notably aggressive breed, if she alienates everyone around her, pushes away all attempts at help, as sad as it is people need to recognize that someone like this can't be rescued. Various people here tried. Valiantly. TTW herself undermined those efforts.
It is genuinely sad when someone winds up on the street, "falls through the cracks" as we like to say. But not everyone can be rescued. The way TTW has pushed away all attempts to help her, from the beginning when people were simply offering genuinely helpful suggestions, to when Msanthrope and her ex took in Yoshi, it's clear that TTW's issue go far beyond anything as simple as case management.
I am no expert in these things. But I do actually volunteer to help the homeless. I am with a faith group that takes two weeks a year (and we'd do more if needed) to feed the homeless at a shelter in our community. I work as the kitchen coordinator for seven days straight each of those two weeks. Not that onerous a commitment, I know. But I do it. But I do see people who have wound up there because of varying circumstances, some of which are similar to TTW's.
I could not work in some other capacity with most of these people because I am far too judgmental. I understand that about myself, and I'm not proud of it, but I recognize my own failings. But I can cook for 150, serve them their meals, treat them with dignity and respect. The vast majority of our guests greatly appreciate what we do and thank us. Those thanks are as much as I need for what I do.
My point is that I'm not just some heartless person who doesn't get it. I am actually out there on the front lines. I wonder how many of the posters here can say the same thing.
I have also done volunteer work at an animal shelter. So again, I've been on the front lines.
Whatever is actually going on with TTW is very complicated, and we cannot solve it at a distance. Even the magical solution of someone who would pay for her apartment into the indefinite future isn't that good a solution, because as someone else has noted, her large dog is going to cause damage, she'll blame the landlord for not fixing things, and she'll be back to where we started several months ago. Read through those early threads if you don't believe me.
Sometimes all you can do is to walk away.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)When you say "fall through the cracks", you seem to have a fairly one-way time-line in mind: people stop working, lose their housing, become street people, and at some point die. You are working with the homeless, so wherever you are, there must be no hope of recovery from that condition.
I live in an area with a fairly large "homeless industry" (which many people complain about) that attempts to help people get their life back together. Experiments in "Housing First" all over the country have shown when you give homeless people a stable place to live, they soon start to look "more human" again - which changes how other people interact with them. This can be the first step toward rebuilding their lives, including getting a regular job. Much of the time, however, they are homeless because they should have been on SSI in the first place (because of mental illness). Even once a person gets some stable benefit such as SSI they can , and still often do, work: the benefit money is very little and the terms and support services strongly encourage people to work as well as socialize.
I'm not sure you have a good idea of what case management can involve. It's not just help finding out what resources you qualify for. It's structured time in which someone goes over your schedule, makes sure you are keeping your appointments, taking your medication, paying your bills, meeting your obligations, and setting reasonable goals for yourself. A good case manager will help you set long term as well as short term goals and will include social as well as job goals so you won't feel like a slave to the system. The only thing that sucks as 10 hours a week with a case manager is 10 hours a week in which you could be working. In some ways this is a lot more useful (in terms of getting one's life back in order) than a psychologist.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)She does not seem to be in medication. Her homelessness is of very recent vintage.
I am not one suggesting case management for her. That has come from others. I have indicated that case management is not something for her. Her problems are more complex than that, as she is someone who from all indications is not at all open to help. I actually find myself amazed that anyone would possibly spend ten hours a week with a case manager. Really?
Once again, I suggest that newcomers to this amazing saga read through all of the many threads. Above I posted links to the first four There are at least thirteen altogether.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I benefited from that myself: and yes, it was 10 hours a week. I was very frustrated that it was that time-consuming. That is one thing a lot of people who are outside these situations don't understand. A lot of things that poor people end up having to do suck up all their time.
Since TTW is in an urban area, I'm hoping she has access to advanced services like this. An eviction notice or homelessness are often keys to getting into those sorts of pipelines. It's hard to initially find these resources and get the right referrals, though.
It's doubtful TTW is on any sort of medication now, but I thought she did mention medication (not being able to afford it) and a therapist (already having one) in the past.
betsuni
(28,651 posts)I'm weak and can't take too much direct human contact because of the sadness of people, but cooking I can do. Not a lot of talking in the kitchen and the important things that comfort and create and sustain life are there, a sort of womb with refrigeration and ovens.
Laurie Colwin on cooking for homeless women in "Home Cooking":
"Not one of these women was like another. They were and are the most surprising group of people I have ever encountered, and not a single assumption can be made about them except that they are all living in a horrible way. ... I made chili, baked beans, macaroni and cheese, baked ziti, borscht, cabbage salad, pasta salad, vegetable stew and toasted cheese. One of the ladies' favorite lunches was baked potato, cheese, salad and fruit, a nice lunch for a winter day."
Ms. Toad
(38,126 posts)I think you'll find a stark contrast with recent posts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=975367&mesg_id=981721
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I thought TTW had mentioned paralegal training. And I think this makes it even more clear that she has shown a willingness to do whatever work it takes to pay the bills.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Facetious is a useful word to describe something that's humorous, or meant to be humorous. If a joke falls flat, then you can back off from it by saying you're only being facetious. There are limits to this use of the word: if you stage an elaborate prank on your friend, making him run out into the street in his underwear because he thinks his house is on fire, calling the joke facetious will probably earn you a punch in the face.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/facetious
—used to describe speech that is meant to be funny but that is usually regarded as annoying, silly, or not proper
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facetious
not seriously meaning what you say, usually in an attempt to be humorous or to trick someone:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/american-english/facetious
trying to appear amusing and intelligent at a time when other people do not think it is appropriate, and when it would be better to be serious
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/learner/facetious
Maybe, just maybe daredtowork, you were looking for another word to use. maybe not.
Most appropriately would be for you to stand down. Just my very, very humble opinion.
It just seems as though you are attacking to many people who have truly done all they could, for not doing as much as you believe should be done.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Once again, it is a statement of fact to say that people on DU stated they wished TTW to relinquish her dog.
Once again TTW can read.
Once again it does not make TTW "ridiculous" or "paranoid" to be able to read.
The people who are swarming all over me have their own agenda, including you.
LiberalAndProud
(12,799 posts)I'm not seeing how your approach could be successful, truthfully. And I am really beginning to resent how you seem to perceive Yoshi as a stuffed plushie to be scuttled about. He's an at-risk animal and the longer he stays in this emotional, anxiety ridden situation the worse for him. The more often his environment is disrupted the more likely it is that he will translate anxiety to aggression. Who is that good for in the long run? Not TTW, imo.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)A lot of wrap around services offer something like a life coach/peer counseling that is not a therapist but is more like someone that can help with life organizational issues and getting the services you need - exactly what would help TTW. They are not there to agree with TTW but to try to help her avoid homelessness. Such are common for organizations that work with homeless people and disabled people. Why would you be hostile to the notion?
Regarding Yoshi: TTW regards Yoshi as her family. She has been living alone. A lot of people have been opining about the needs of the dog. I will agree that TTW does not have the resources to take care of the dog at this point, but taking away Yoshi will be the same as taking away a family member.
The people who are snarking at TTW's reaction when she found out that Yoshi had been taken to the rescue organization after she had been expressly trying to avoid that outcome should imagine if they were homeless and trying to avoid trying to give up their child: they left their child in the care of a friend who promised to feed it while they went to a job interview, and when they came back, they found their child had been taken to an orphanage.
I'm told that the "good of the dog" needs to be prioritized over TTW's "emotional" reaction.
I agree with everyone that TTW can't take care of Yoshi right now: but I think TTW would be able to stabilize a lot faster if she knew there was hope of getting Yoshi back.
People seem to have forgotten most if not all of TTW's personal items were lost when she was evicted as well. How hard it must be to hold together her personal sense of identity and worth under those conditions.
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)that Yoshi go somewhere safe and stable.
Just like a life in constant chaos and turmoil is not good for a child, it isn't good for a dog.
Lets look at it from TTW's perspective. Yes, Yoshi is all she has (it sounds like). But Yoshi isn't a goldfish or pet hamster. He is a large dog who needs a lot of food, vet checkups, and supervision (because of all the stress going on, Yoshi is in protective mode). That is a lot of responsibility for someone under good circumstances. Now you have someone who (again from what I understand) doesn't have a permanent home or work situation, or emotional support from family. How can TTW focus on getting what she needs done - work, home, stability while she is worried about Yoshi?
I am not saying everyone in a crappy situation should lose their children or pets. But it sounds like TTW has hit a major crisis point and she needs to focus 100% of her energy on herself and let someone focus their energy on Yoshi.
I don't think it has to be forever but right now it may be for a few months.
One final thing to keep in mind - if a child acts out because they are stressed - hit someone for example - they won't be euthanized. If Yoshi bites someone - either out of fear or to protect TTW - he will be euthanized. That would devastate TTW more than any separation would.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)is I doubt TTW is going to give Yoshi up. While everyone is mocking how TTW responded to her "betrayal", this makes it a lot harder to get her to relinquish Yoshi.
It seems much more likely that this is going to end up with her becoming homeless: there's probably a scenario down the line with Yoshi getting shot by a frightened cop and TTW going to jail.
Perhaps if she gets in her car with Yoshi there is some place she can drive to.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)That is utter bullshit, and you know it.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Where is the bullshit? I see a lot of mocking there.
And for pointing out the FACT that people on DU did give TTW cause to think that they wanted her to give up Yoshi, I got to hear how, not just TTW, but I, was guilty of "conspiratorial thinking".
Having to put up with THAT all night is bullshit.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)dog. You are being utterly unrealistic with this cage nonsense.
TTW was not fully forthcoming about Yoshi being a danger- and she has to own that bit of miscommunication herself, and get it through her head that she cannot command people to do her bidding merely because they offered to help. Other people have very reasonable boundaries- and their own lives and safety- as well as Yoshi's -will be part of how they determine those boundaries.
To expect them to house the dogs no matter what aggression occurred is dead wrong. TTW is not in a position to "enforce terms" and that expectation is so wrong and so unrealistic that you are doing her no service here promoting that expectation. She is bound to continue to be angry and lash out at the world at people who have truly done the best they could for her. You are truly not helping here.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)There is another person (who seems a bit depressed) last night who was arguing that msanthrope should have kept the dog and something about keeping him in a cage. I vigorously disagree and felt she was starting to starting to identify with TTW in some way.
I do think TTW has been forthcoming about Yoshi, though. She just loves Yoshi and frames it in a positive way such as "hyper reactive to strangers" instead "evil vicious attack dog". In past threads people would retranslate her statements to the negative: "You mean "vicious dog"? Msanthrope's ex saw the dog before he took him and I'm sure TTW tried to fill him in on his every special need. He just wasn't familiar with that breed and didn't realize it would attack his other pets. While I think he's really great for trying to take the dog in, and I don't blame him for having to remove him from his house, I really don't think TTW "not being forthcoming" was a factor. Her posts are such dissertations, it's hard to get to the pertinent facts.
Again, I do not have that expectation that msanthrope's ex continue to take care of Yoshi at all. I do think you have me confused with another person.
Facility Inspector
(615 posts)Jesus, do you people even realize how you sound?
Nay
(12,051 posts)threads since the first couple of them, mainly because I could see how things were going to end up, but I wanted to respond to you to say that I am in your camp. It doesn't take an Einstein to see that TTW is mentally unbalanced in some way, or that she is totally unable to manage a job, a huge dog, rent, etc. A few months of money has been spent with no accounting, and things are just the same except worse. The hugest giveaway to her true condition is her trashing of nearly everyone who has tried to help her, including social workers and people who actually came and took care of her unfriendly dog.
Even if we all came up with real-life "Life coaches, dog trainers, dog walkers, a team of attorneys" -- TTW wouldn't use them!! If someone GAVE her an apartment rent-free, her dog would rip it up and TTW would demand that the owner pay for repairs as the place was now uninhabitable. The poor woman is ill! She can't even make herself do what is needed for the dog she says she loves so much! She is UNABLE TO FUNCTION RATIONALLY. More money will not help her. Only mental help will help her, and that's iffy, especially if she rejects it. This whole project is WAAAAAY out of the range of a message board, but .... people are free to waste their time as they wish. I am mad at myself for reading yet another thread on this person; I can only attribute that to an unhealthy desire to watch a train wreck. I'm not proud of myself for that.
Lil Missy
(17,865 posts)beaglelover
(4,416 posts)steve2470
(37,481 posts)Yoshi is now with TTW, and things are up to her.
XRubicon
(2,241 posts)pnwmom
(110,185 posts)She's threatening her with criminal theft charges.
TTW's family, which knows more about her situation than any of us, has also tried and failed to help her.
It is time for us to realize that there are people we can help and problems we can solve -- but she is just one tragic person. And she is probably beyond the help of a message board.
BUT there are millions of others who could benefit from help. Anyone who has an urge to help TTW can instead look around in their own lives for people who may need our help. If you don't know anyone in a precarious position, there are plenty of other ways to
channel that energy into helping SOMEONE or doing something good. We can donate time or money to homeless shelters, food banks, animals shelters, etc.
We can't help this specific person but we can all take actions that will help people just like her -- and people who need help just as much. Look around. They're all around us.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The shelter they took Yoshi has probably half the size cages they could have put Yoshi in their home.
Sorry, but taking a pet from the owner and promising you will care for their pet for a while, only to surrender the pet 2 days later, is fuct up!. I'm glad TTW got Yoshi back.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)That's why TTW asked for help.
Msanthrope and her ex were misled by TTW about Yoshi's personality. He turned out to be much more aggressive than they expected. And it didn't hurt TTW a bit to have to retrieve him from the shelter instead of the ex-s house. She was fully informed about Yoshi's location and her rights to him, and she acted on the information.
It's too bad she didn't leave him there, where he had a chance of being rescued. I'm afraid this will not end well for Yoshi.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)The shelter was a kill shelter!! I'm glad TTW got him back.
I would do the same for my cat.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)of being euthanized at the shelter because the Rescue had already said he had good potential and they agreed to take him.
Your cat isn't likely to attack a human being on the street. Not the same at all.
Response to pnwmom (Reply #176)
Post removed
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)If it turns out that this experienced Akita rescue couldn't train him, then that dog doesn't belong with TTW or with anyone. Some dogs can't be saved.
But Msanthrope and her ex did nothing wrong when they turned him over to the shelter, because they ALSO told TTW where he was and exactly how to get him.
JI7
(93,123 posts)that you dismiss had said.
the best possible future for yoshi considering the circumstances was what was going to happen . but the help was rejected.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)What kind of conditions do you think he got at the shelter????? People who deceive make me sick to my stomach!
JI7
(93,123 posts)dog . but you have not provided any info on that.
if it's so simple it shouldn't take much longer than the time you post on DU.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)I was only answering the OP.
Whybrw you deflecting from the question above??
JI7
(93,123 posts)if it's so available as you claim
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 8, 2015, 09:21 AM - Edit history (1)
another credibility-enhancing post 
edit - OK i might have to kind of take that back, if you mean you aren't here on a regular basis because you are often flagged for review or on yet another time-out. otherwise, despite many demands to be banned, GBCW, or fuck-off DU posts you always break your word and return.
JI7
(93,123 posts)darkangel218
(13,985 posts)What part of I'm not here on daily basis do you not get??? Wow.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)This would be easy in comparison.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)couldn't walk this very large, strong dog outside because he got aggressive when he encountered people on their walks.
So how would you solve that problem?
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)?????????!?????
Shelters house animals in sickening small quarters!!! I know because I worked ( voluneteerly) for 2 shelters and the conditions are awful!!!!
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)and kept Yoshi in it, when that wouldn't have solved the problem of exercising the dog?
Yoshi was suffering in the cage at the doggie daycare. The solution wasn't just to get him another, bigger one.
darkangel218
(13,985 posts)Do you not agree????
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)OTOH, if Yogi bites or kills someone else's pet or child, now that TTW has him out on the streets with her, that would be very bad.
Do you not agree?
MoonRiver
(36,975 posts)Even if she doesn't give a damn about the people he may bite, she'd potentially be saving his life.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Like you I hope she does too. It really could save his life and someone's pet or person.
JI7
(93,123 posts)the issues with the dog daycare was lack of space so the poster thinks the solution should have been to take out the dog and put them in a cage ?
wtf ?
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)ladyVet
(1,587 posts)All of this was explained in msanthrope's thread. It's been an ongoing problem for months now. The dog is stressed and aggressive. He is a danger to TTW and others in this state.
I wonder if you'll come back and apologize when the inevitable thread pops up saying Yoshi has attacked someone and had to be put down? I doubt it. We'll probably be treated to more ranting about how we didn't do enough, how we failed TTW and Yoshi.
And you'll be just as full of shit then as you are now. You and daredtowork.
The sad fact is, there is nothing more anyone can do here. If anyone wants to continue to donate to TTW's already existing gofundme, then fine. But it's clear that nothing we say or do will ever be good enough, the help that many people spent a lot of time researching and setting up for her was spit on. The people who personally, physically helped her face threats and possible lawsuits.
The woman is exhibiting signs of extreme mental illness. That's not a diagnosis, it's an observation. If she refuses help, there's nothing we or anyone else can do, until the day she or Yoshi hurts someone. Then they will get all sorts of help, but it will be too little, too late.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Why are you saying I'm "full of shit" and lumping me in with dark angel?
I have thanked msanthrope for what she tried to do and haven't blamed her ex for taking the dog out of the house.
I agree that TTW can't take care of the dog, and I'm worried that Yoshi is going to attacking someone - I suspect his end is going to be shot by a policeman.
The fuss about me in this thread concerns the fact certain people are calling TTW's reaction "crazy" for thinking people on DU wanted her to relinquish Yoshi. Yet there were many posts wanting her to take Yoshi to Akita Rescue and people who were calling TTW a scammer for "ignoring advice" on taking Yoshi to Akita Rescue. TTW had given Yoshi to msanthrope's Ex to try to avoid the rescue organization, and Yoshi ended up there anyway.
Because TTW now feels betrayed, I don't see how she will give up Yoshi again. But I also don't see how pretending TTW has no reason to imagine people at DU will try to remove Yoshi from her helps the situation: THAT is magical thinking at this point. It's simply a fact that DU does want her to give up Yoshi, and TTW could read that.
This does not mean I think TTW can take care of Yoshi. I do think the only likely scenario in which she would give him up is if she could be guaranteed his return, and she will double-down on that now.
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)Possibly because I wasn't talking to you?
But, the truth is, people have offered all the help and resources you seem to think TTW needs -- over and over and over again -- and she's either ignored it, claimed there were no such things available, or flat out refused to do anything to help herself. She's claimed to have no idea how things such as Craig's List works, not to mention seemingly being unable to use the Internet to find things such as food banks and other resources. Yet she has paralegal training?
The reason so many people advise giving Yoshi to a rescue group is to save him. He will be destroyed once he harms someone, and TTW has admitted in other threads that he's very protective of her and won't allow anyone near "his" people/property. What do you think that will do to TTW? She'll likely be in jail, liable for the harm he's done (and let's hope he doesn't kill anybody) and her life will just be that much worse. I don't think she could mentally recover from that.
I myself begged someone in the area to please take him in, in hopes that TTW could use the time she didn't have to worry about him to get a job, save some money and get herself together enough to take him back and live happily ever after.
But seeing what happened when he was taken in, I can't blame misanthrope nor her ex for not keeping an aggressive and dangerous dog around their child, much less their own pets. That anyone would fault them for that is beyond outrageous.
Nobody wants to see anything bad happen to Yoshi or TTW. But pie-in-the-sky ideals don't work in the real world. I certainly can't donate regularly to pay her bills, because I'm just hanging on myself. There are little to no benefits for a woman in her fifties without small children. If she could qualify for disability for mental health reasons, that might open more doors, but my feeling is she won't try to qualify.
It's terribly sad, and I want to kick Ronald Reagan in the nuts -- and Bill Clinton, too -- for making it so hard for people to get welfare.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I checked above and see you were replying to darkangel. A lot of people were confusing me with darkangel, which was upsetting me a great deal, but I'm not sure why I ended up replying to your post since it sticks out of the whole chain. Anyway, thank you for replying and clarifying that you weren't addressing me.
I don't blame msanthrope or her ex for anything they've done. According to another thread, TTW has put Yoshi back into the Doggie Daycare that was supposedly torturing him to death. If she has to pay them, this will fritter away all the money in the paypal account. As her claims about Craigslist show, she desperately needs some sort of Case Manager on that side of things. Another post in that thread shows how she tried to reach out to various resources to get bills paid but got frustrated with phone trees and being routed toward higher level of mental health services than she probably needs. (She probably doesn't need institutionalization).
If there was just someone in Philadelphia seriously willing to look at the benefits/resources situation there and make the phone calls for TTW that might be a start. Of course, legally TTW would have to make any approach to services herself. But her problem (and the problem for most in her situation) is there is a great wall of hassle involved in finding the right resource, and she's already in mental state where she can't deal with that.
Thank you for the effort you put in to looking for home for Yoshi. I want to kick both Ronald Reagan and Bill Clinton in the nuts, too! This case is an epic example of the contradictions that block people from getting into the system, and that's why I think it's worth discussing on DU, beyond helping with TTW's particular situation.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)I haven't chimed in on any of this prior to my post to you. However TTW may not have misled anyone in regards to the dog's personality.
Obviously the dog is traumatized. Displaced from the owner, taken to unfamiliar environment, placed in a too small cage. Then taken (with no doubt nothing but good intentions from the people who tried to help) to another chaotic environment involving small children and other dogs. I can believe that the dog was exhibiting his fear and anxiety as aggression. I don't believe for a moment that the problem is with the dog but with the humans that have been interacting with it- beginning with the owner.
An unbalanced human equals an unbalanced canine. Dogs mirror their human's energy. So if their human exhibits a nervous, angry, excited, fearful energy, the dog is likely to exhibit the same energy and it may manifest itself as being protective or overly aggressive.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I understand that the dog was taken from the daycare into a home where it was immediately faced with the owner and their energy, the person(s) who was trying to help's energy and the energy of excited children and other excited dogs? It probably overwhelmed the poor thing causing it to display it's excitement, fear and anxiousness in the form of aggression. From what I've read there was nothing calm about the entire transition.
One thing about all dogs but especially for large breeds- is that whoever cares for the dog must reflect a calm, assertive demeanor. It is essential that the human(s) make it understood to the dog in a calm assertive manner that they are the pack leader.
This is why I say that TTW may not have misled in regards to the dogs behavior. It was behaving like a confused, nervous, traumatized dog and took it cues from the poorly trained humans interacting with it who were probably fearful, excited and nervous also. I think that it is possible that if Yoshi's transition from day care to foster home had been into a more calm environment and integrated with the rest of the family (dogs, children) more slowly, we may have seen a different, more positive outcome.
I'm not defending TTW with this post, I'm just trying to give some insight as to why the dog behaved as it did. In essence, I'm defending the dog.
pnwmom
(110,185 posts)will produce a stressed out dog, especially in a guard dog breed.
What the dog needed was the kind of calm training that he could have gotten through a good Akita rescue. Not a foster home with a man who was only used to a "goofy black lab" and who had a visiting child with autism and the child's small dog.
Msanthrope and her ex did their best and no one should blame them that it didn't work out. Their hearts were in the right place. But few people, other than an experienced Akita rescue, would have been prepared to deal with this emergency situation.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)as to the dogs nature. I'm not placing blame. I was just pointing out that under different circumstances- what was interpreted as aggression may not have occurred and that the owner might not have been dishonest when the nature of the dog was discussed.
I agree, the people who tried to help had good intentions. But yes, the dog needs to be with someone who understands canine behavior.
irisblue
(36,694 posts)ALERTER'S COMMENTS
This poster is just stirring shit at this point. To come in months later and say what everyone should have done while the people that have already been down that road and TRIED to help serves no purpose. msanthrope's ex was misled about the dog's temperament - the dog was a danger to him and his pets. Nobody can deal with that even on a temporary basis.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Aug 8, 2015, 02:10 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The poster's answers did a better job of shutting down that poster than a jury could.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: darkangel is being alert stalked. Her account is already flagged for review. this is piling on her in my opinion. Bad alert
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Enough of the alert stalking
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Being a caseworker I did encounter similar individuals. While affording them every benefit they were eligible for and providing them with various levels of support it just was never enough and for whatever reason they could just not be elevated, by themselves or by the kind assistance of numerous people dedicated to helping those in need. The time and resources are needed by someone and most people I encountered wanted to help themselves and were extremely grateful for any help they received. Like you said, there are people in our own lives who need help and either we are not aware or they are too proud to ask for help. I would love to see all of us be more proactive in this regard. We should be asking people in our lives, friends, family, and strangers, what is wrong? what can I do for you?
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)doing what you always do, you keep on getting what you always get.
DU has tried to help for months and the situation seems no better. Time to let go. That's not to quit caring but realizing we can't fix this problem.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)Most of all to TTW and Yoshi. They unfortunately have a difficult road ahead.
Also I think the DU'ers involved so closely will be haunted by this experience. It is just very sad in every direction.
Especially since TTW sees everyone from DU now as some part of some "conspiracy" to steal her dog from her that she is cutting off all contact. So as much as everyone gets to worry, no one gets to know if they are OK. 6 solid months of hell!
ohheckyeah
(9,314 posts)that it's sad. I have followed the whole thing pretty closely and would normally have helped financially but it didn't sit right, for whatever reason.
Nay
(12,051 posts)(like the bobbolink one referred to above) that never ended well. Never.
OneGrassRoot
(23,927 posts)
LuvLoogie
(8,481 posts)he would have been placed in child protective services a while ago, it seems.
Though Yoshi is not a child, TTW still cannot care for the DOG. Nor can she care for herself.
Pets are at the mercy of one's vanity. Public safety trumps good intentions.
foo_bar
(4,193 posts)magical thyme
(14,881 posts)It's something I've avoided doing throughout this saga -- I had TTW on ignore until yesterday because concluded long before this saga even began that she was emotionally unstable. I became aware of the situ by other DUer's threads and reading at work.
I would hesitate to call her mentally ill and suspect any proposed diagnoses (including my own) made by either professionals or lay people who have never actually met her.
I realize that it's a drop in the bucket compared to her real needs, but I also understand why she reclaimed Yoshi -- he is all she really has, he is her family.
I'm just hoping they are safe somewhere, that she finds work soon or that the heavens rain some money down on her so that she can climb out of this hole.
This, people, is the reality of our "trapdoor economy." The majority of us are 1 or 2 paychecks away from falling through that trapdoor.
It's very easy to tell TTW to give up Yoshi. Just remember, when it's your turn to fall through the trapdoor, it may not be your dog that others suggest you sacrifice. It could be whatever gives you a reason to keep going.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)to lay quietly at her side, walk at her side and totally ignore every distraction. Teach him to pick up dropped objects and close doors. Tell your Doctor you trained a service dog and feel better because of the dog.
Hes a trained service dog. Then the dog can go everywhere, even work.
But a dog will NOT not pass as a service dog if there is any aggression what so ever, while in public.
I'm not sure if the human is able to even self-train the dog without professional trainers help. And that help is very expensive.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)And a dangerous one, at that.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I'm not talking about slapping a vest on an aggressive untrained dog and lie its a service dog.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)It takes months to train them properly and I seriously doubt either of them is up to the task.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Though you're probably correct about this persons situation.
Even though they probably are with the dog alone 24/7 today, they don't have the ability to train the dog to walk quietly by their side and lay quietly at their feet while at work. They don't have the ability to train the dog to perform a trained function to make a medical issue better for them.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)all the information about Yoshi, including TTW's claim some time back that he was her emotional support dog, and if you understood exactly what goes into a dog becoming a real service dog, you'd realize that's not a very practical suggestion. Service dogs need VERY specific training.
This is, after all, a dog that TTW said would probably attack anyone who came into her place if she weren't there. Yoshi has so very far to go to become an real service dog, that it's not even funny. And TTW is absolutely not the person who can do the training.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)I disagree with you, anyone can train a dog to walk quietly at side, down quietly at their feet and ignore everything else. I suggest she read and apply training methods from books by Monks of New Skete.
Actually Akitas don't care to be petted, fed or cuddled by strangers. They like to be allowed to 'ignore distractions' and bond close with their owner. They learn fast and want to please their owner, obey trained commands. Its a big enough dog breed to assist a person with bad knees to rise from a chair, or steady a person with balance problems.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)an actual trained emotional support dog, and a dog someone has that she depends on emotionally.
Call me a skeptic, but I'm not real sure that an adult dog, one who is already aggressive to strangers, is going to be real trainable to ignore all provocations. Perhaps more to the point, TTW is hardly in a place where she's going to be able to do such training.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)no experience with the Akita breed and still the dog, was uncomfortable/anxious but did not bite another pet or human.
We have to have faith that the owner wants what's best for her dog, and speaks to her Doctor about her problems.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)did not do very well in the less than two weeks it was being handled by various strangers and in and out of different situations. In fact, it did so badly that the people who tried hard to give it a decent place found themselves forced to turn it over to a shelter, with the intention of placing it with a breed rescue. The owner then swooped in, took the dog back, and we really don't know what the situation currently is, and can only hope for the best.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)The one night foster did the best they could with a breed, Akita adult, that doesn't do well with that type of in home handling.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)I feel sorry for both TTW and Yoshi. They are caught up in a situation by many factors that are now obviously out of their control.
That said, I look at all the threads, all the comments, all the offers of help (Msantrope's efforts in particular), and what has happened with everything...and I think it's time that DU admits that it has done all it can do for both of them -- and move on. It's hard to admit defeat when it comes to another human being -- I know from experience. But it happens. Hard truth.
You simply cannot put your own well-being, safety, finances, etc., at risk in continuing to try to help someone who has proven at every turn that the help is not appreciated. Move. On.
If anyone cares to call me out on this, I'd like to add that there are many, many, many other such persons in similar situations in your own backyards who perhaps WOULD appreciate your efforts. You may end up not making any difference in TWW's life -- but there are others out there who you could be helping in person, rather than arguing among yourselves here and wondering what more you all can do, could have done, etc. -- that's all wasted effort right now, IMO.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)And I have participated in these threads but you are spot on.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)The lengths of these threads aren't really about TTW.
They are about how people responded to TTW and may still respond to TTW if she asks for help again or if someone else asks for help.
Among the issues:
1) How to be careful about Internet scammers without creating permanent patrols of people who always try to discourage donation to people who actually need help. The TTW case became really fraught because these "skeptics" were still on "patrol" and (of course a few here needed to post their aversion to "Internet Panhandlers" in general) long after TTW's situation had been verified. Perhaps there needs to be a rule against first person testimony as that is always perceived as subjective.
2) How DU can assist in human aid vs. animal rescue. Again TTW's case is fraught because there are people who are more focused on the fate of TTW and people more focused on the fate of her dog and varying opinions - many conflicting opinions - on what was best for the dog. This has reached the ad absurdum point of people who have promoted relinquishing the dog having to suppress the fact they promoted relinquishing the dog so they can argue that TTW is "crazy" for thinking people wanted her to relinquish the dog, and that's part of the proof she's in no condition to care for the dog.
3) Donations vs. real world intervention. A lot of people would prefer to give real world assistance rather than money - especially when its clear that person needs a lot of support in general. It would seems like it would be great to use DU as an organizing tool to find people int he area who might facilitate that intervention or at least help find the right local services. In this case someone from DU went way above the call of duty, and a family member tried to take in a dog they couldn't handle. Various people who are against real world interventions (as well as donations) are using this as an example to discourage ALL such real world interventions. For TTW's case alone there is a lot of, "SEE, she won't accept ANY help." People are eager to prove their case studies.
Regarding your own post: you could easily ignore this thread all together - yet you chose to post an opinion that is really not about TTW, but is about whether people were putting their safety and well-being at risk by helping her. The answer might be yes if they tried to take care of her dog. If you are saying "move on" for donating money to TTW, then this is a stealth "don't panhandle" thread. I have to disagree with "silencing" all together: people who are able to contact TTW can always offer her the contact information of a great resource they found in her area. That might genuinely help her. Why put the kabosh on that?
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)the place you know is available, but here you still are, attacking everyone and anybody that has anything reasonable at all to say.
WTF? Go fix what everyone here has failed so miserably at. Come back with solutions. You've told everyone what to do, well step up. Take the lead or do what I suggested much earlier, take a TIME OUT!! Quit attacking everyone here. Stop it, just stop. If you can't, then go away and come back with the solution instead of telling everyone what they are doing wrong and what to do and oh by the way "I don't have time, but I'll contribute"!
Cut it out, last time I ask nice. Sorry. Not threatening you I just think you are for some strange reason committed to making everyone involved incredibly miserable!
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)That person has loads of criticism for everyone, and yet no solutions.
I think that DU has done about all they can. Several have gone above and beyond. Throwing more money at this will not help this situation at all. Until TTW realizes she needs to get some mental health help, there is nothing that any of us can do.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)1) You must be implying TTW is a scammer and discouraging people from giving to her gofundme account. I don't encourage or discourage giving, but I do challenge people who represent TTW as a scammer.
2) You called TTW "paranoid" or "ridiculous" or something along those lines for believing people on DU wanted her to relinquish Yoshi - or you are with the trolls who piled on me for exonerating TTW of paranoia on this point.
If you don't fall into either of those categories, I believe you've been spared my "loads of criticism". A few people who have attacked me were mistaken as to my opinions/position.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)berating people is ridiculous. People are entitled to their opinion, whether you agree with it or not. I also don't think you are helping her at all by having an attitude.
She has way more problems than any of us here can deal with from afar.
I don't believe I participated in any of the TTW threads.
Why don't you take her in?
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Because I'm a tenant with a housemate who can't take her in. Secondly, I've been in a situation similar to TTW's which makes my housing unstable. On the up side, that gives me some valuable perspective on the resources TTW needs.
While people are entitled to their opinion, as we are fond of saying about Fox, they are not entitled to their own facts.
The reason you see me posting a lot was people tried to push their own facts about TTW exhibiting "paranoia" and "conspiratorial thinking" because she thought people on DU wanted her to relinquish Yoshi. That is counterfactual. People on DU do want her to relinquish Yoshi to Akita Rescue.
No matter what you think should be done about Yoshi or TTW, I don't think misrepresenting what has been put on the forums or what TTW read here helps in the slightest. That should not go in the "evidence" column of anything about her. The only reason there are many posts from me about it is there are many posts from other people trying to counter my exoneration of TTW on that point. I don't see why they are doing that. If we can recognize Fox is not entitled to its own facts when it wants to manipulate a situation, why is it fine to do that in the situation of poor TTW?
People are still trolling me on it now. That Demit guy is up there saying "bring me proof!" of something or the rather: I didn't even bother to look at what - I just refused to let him go on with his quibbling.
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)At any rate, she has the dog back.
Bickering with people about your conspiracy and how people are all against her does absolutely nothing.
I think if TTW has something to say, she should say it herself. I don't think you need to be speaking for others.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)to pile on me. And then later point to how I've posted a lot because I have to defend myself from *their* accusations.
If I'm going to be accused of conspiracy theories anyway, may I ask if there is some call out for people "needing posts here" to shore up their position and attack daredtowork?
None of my replies have been fomenting any kind of conspiracy theory or "attack" on DU. They have been stating a fact - but it seems that this fact is such an outrage to be heard that people need to swarm to suppress it!!!
SIMPLE FACT: many people posted advice for TTW to give Yoshi over to Akita rescue.
All the posts about my "conspiracy theories", "insults", "mocking" are simply the ways various people have gone ape over me stating this fact as a defense of TTW perceiving that people on DU were not in favor of her keeping Yoshi and is therefore cannot be dismissed as "ridiculous" or "paranoid" for thinking that. These are people with their own agendas. As I tried to respond to them, other people have just had to pile on.
I agree this does absolutely nothing to help TTW, but you are wrong about where the "bickering" is coming from. Why did you feel so moved to intervene in this and attack me?
HappyMe
(20,277 posts)That should be the end of it.
Nobody is "attacking" you.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)and other people are piling on complaining about me criticizing and thread rampaging when I'm having to cut-and-paste the same FACT in all these threads. I'm not "accusing" or "criticizing". I'm stating a fact that in defense of a woman who was being called ridiculous for noticing said "fact".
Any show of emotion related to that is connected to the way I have been spammed and trolled over being have to restate that FACT over and over and over again. Then I'm told I'm "rampaging" and *I* need to cut it out? WTF?
As I said before, DU is all over Fox when they make up facts to suit their agenda.
But look what happens if you try to stand up for a fact on DU.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)included.
You've made your point repeatedly.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Why are you asking me to stop? You seem to acknowledge I am the one who was forced to repeat myself ad infinitum. Why aren't you asking others to stop trolling me?
haikugal
(6,476 posts)Take some responsibility for yourself and stop blaming everyone else for TTW's situation. No one here did anything but try to help.
We are letting it go now.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)This is where I feel I'm getting piled on and why I feel I have to keep repeating myself.
Where am I "blaming everyone else for TTW's situation?"
I thanked msanthrope and her ex for going above and beyond the call of duty and agree her ex did what he had to do.
I don't obligate or require anyone to do anthing for TTW. In previous months I didn't even advocate for people to give her money. I just asked "skeptics" not to undermine the thread, and I advised TTW on how to improve her credibility and asked people to vouch for her.
I have suggested services that TTW could benefit from. In taking a position, I thought TTW could most benefit from a person in the area to help connect her with those services, but I haven't obligated anyone particular to do that.
The thing people are piling on me about is that I called them out on a lie that was told about TTW: that was she was "paranoid" to think people wanted her to give up Yoshi to Akita Rescue. That is not "blaming everyone else". That is not ingratitude for everything everyone did to try to help her. People have gone way over the top trying to help TTW.
I really do not get why people are so obsessed with suppressing this one fact. Why is it so important to call TTW "ridiculous" and "paranoid"? Why can't we say that while she over-reacted, there might have been basis for her over-reaction? Where is the harm in that? One would think, working from the TRUTH might help TTW trust a little more when some one does approach her to give up the dog.
haikugal
(6,476 posts)You can't accept there is nothing anyone can do at this point so you're beating a dead horse and nothing is happening. It pisses you off so you rant.
I'm done.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)about "blaming everyone about TTW" for instance.
Ms. Toad suggested in another post that some people confused me with darkangel. I hope that's the case. What you refer to as "rants" are me going: "No, I said this." Repeatedly. I am extremely frustrated by it, but you would be too if people were coming at you all day accusing you of remarks you hadn't made and positions you hadn't taken.
sketchy
(458 posts)This misunderstanding contributed to the negativity.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I hope the same can be said of True Blue and some other people other people whose attitudes have suddenly mysteriously changed toward me.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I had a very good discussion with One Grass Root offline about Wishadoo today. Perhaps that will eventually come together to help future TTWs.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)In a way, you proved the point I was making above, although I know you probably won't see it that way. Look for opportunities where you CAN make a difference, instead of arguing about a situation that, right now, is clearly beyond DU's ability to help.
And with that, I'll leave this discussion.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)But it sounds like you are the one who is too close to this situation and needs to take a step back.
Here are the steps I have taken, and how involved I was willing to get.
When I first saw TTW post, her situation looked familiar, but a number of people were already out crying "scam" and denouncing the "Internet panhandler". I attempted to validate those kinds of experiences and asked the "skeptics" to back off. I talked to TTW in PM about what she could do to improve her credibility and what resources she could seek out. I also talked to other DU members about contacting her and vouching for her.
When TTW posted again, the "skeptics" came out to discourage people donating to her gofundme because she would need regular rent money. I again came out to validate TTW's situation and provide case management resources. I saw DU members had already validated her situation.
At this point several DU members have been in contact with TTW, and msanthrope's ex has actually met her. There shouldn't be any more "skeptics" trying to discourage people on DU who, for whatever reasons, want to help her. Yet there are. So I try to counter their noise with TTW's point of view. I think that if people want to continue to help TTW - especially by leading her to steady resources in the Philadelphia area - they shouldn't be discouraged from doing that.
Most of all, no matter how stressed out and our mentally ill TTW may be at the minute, she is still an autonomous human being with dignity. Not ALL of her choices are bad ones: we aren't the ones who can judge that from here. She needs help from a case manager who can work with her in Philadelphia.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)For hours now you have been posting about what everyone needs to do, how we all can still fix this. How we all are wrong, you have mocked the people most involved and that were helping the most.
You were challenged several times to find the resources, places to stay etc, and all you could do was say "l don't have time, but I can contribute."
I don't know what's going on with you and I have suggested several times maybe you need to take a TIMEOUT, and I have been supported in that belief.
Please don't push this, just take a break. IMVHO, you need to take a break. Please, I am begging you, Please.
You've only been here just a year ........
How can you presume to know so much more than everyone else here?
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)I was asleep until a couple of hours ago.
I'm not sure why you think you have some authority to issue commands at me, but you don't. I've already described what I've done concerning TTW, and I didn't even need to do that for you.
I believe I do have a valuable perspective on TTW's situation. It was much more valuable several months ago before she was evicted. Now the only use I can be is to counter "skeptics" with TTW's point of view. I will continue to do that whether you grant your permission or not.
You frankly seem to be imagining something about me that is not there.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)I am saying you don't seem to be a very nice person. I really don't know why. We have followed closely all of TTW's pleas for help starting in February.
We quit sweetie, you win. Keep on keeping on. We are not making one more post in this ongoing disaster. We are done, we are through.
Been a part of DU since 2001 and never, not ever seen anything like this and hope not to see it again.
A solid six months of this community being ripped to shreds over this. And with you most recently leading the charge. Impressive, NOT!
Just damned sad!!!! DONE!
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)because you really aren't seeing me at all.
I'm sorry you feel the need to make an ultimatum over me following your commands.
I regard myself as a very kind person, in a similar situation as TTW, who has tried to help her in my own way and defend her from those who would call her a scammer and forward their agendas by saying TTW has said/done stuff she hasn't said/done.
Again, I'm sorry you feel so powerfully about trying to prevent me from doing that. While I am a kind person whose actions do come from a place of love, I also feel strongly about people trying to manipulate or control me: especially when they have been actively misrepresenting my actions.
trueblue2007
(19,062 posts)and no one else.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Last edited Sat Aug 8, 2015, 11:31 PM - Edit history (1)
you steadily championed TTW against ShielaT - what on earth are you doing here adding to this pile on against me?
I'm not sure what the behind the scenes chatter is here, but none of this is changing the fact that people on DU did want TTW to give Yoshi up to Akita Rescue, TTW read those posts on the forum, right or wrong TTW had tried to avoid the Akita Rescue decision, so therefore she was not "ridiculous" or "paranoid" in her evaluation of the situation - she was over-reacting because the dog was taken to a shelter, and was on it's way to a rescue organization, which is what she had been trying to find an alternative to.
I hate to be arguing with someone who so valiantly tried to help TTW: frankly, you showing up here feels something like what TTW must have felt when she found Yoshi was at the shelter - betrayed and against all expectation. I do wish what little I have to offer were valued by you. I spent half the day trying to fend off ShielaT yesterday. I'm sure now you will say: "Well who asked you - we'd prefer you to take a nap." If you click my sig, you will see I've been as close to TTW's situation as anyone here: I feel that gives me more insight on the resources available than most people here and a bit of insight into TTW's perspective. Even if not one other person respects that, I know that and will do what I can.
Sadly, NO ONE is helping TTW here if, as I understand it, she hasn't contacted anyone. She is out there alone with Yoshi, in a situation that is probably not going to end well. For that we can only pray she contacts moosepoop or someone else she became close to.
EDIT: In looking at another thread, I realize I've actually conflated you with TBlue37. So as much as I wish you wouldn't conflate me with darkangel, I'm not quite as disappointed as I was earlier.
Ms. Toad
(38,126 posts)Most of what you are describing was said by darkangel
"what everyone needs to do"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7054805
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7055458
Mocking people who helped
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027055905
"no time"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7055506
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7055543
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)I noticed the same thing but was hesitant to get involved.
TYY
Violet_Crumble
(36,379 posts)daredtowork
(3,732 posts)With TrueBlue007 telling me to to "take a nap", my jaw just dropped. Several people have steered unfathomable posts at me, and I can only hope that part of it is that they are confusing my posts with hers.
One person did put my name together with darkangel's in the same post, so I think there may be some deliberate effort to conflate us.
Darkangel seems to be identifying with TTW in some way.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)
The Velveteen Ocelot
(128,899 posts)I've been following TTW's situation for a long time, and I guess I've come to the same conclusion. At some point it becomes apparent that there's nothing more that can be done. Msanthrope and Ex tried to help in person, and went far beyond what many people would do for a stranger, but their help was eventually rejected - which was not surprising. I've run into situations a bit like this - though not as dire - where I tried to help someone who was in trouble. TTW's posts and the threads that ensued had a rather familiar ring: All suggestions were rejected or ignored for one reason or another; and according to TTW people who said they would help weren't helping. I want to emphasize that I do not believe for a minute that TTW was intentionally trying to scam DU. What I do think is that she has some personal issues that make it difficult for her to have insight to what's going on and what will have to happen in order for her to stabilize her life.
The situations I encountered also involved a couple of people who wanted help but didn't want the help I offered, which involved doing some things they didn't want to do (like getting a job or counseling, for example) in order to reach their ultimate goals. They wanted their problems to be solved - right now - but because of some psychological issues they had that I was in no position to understand or deal with, they didn't want to take the incremental steps toward solving them. So when I made a suggestion that would be a step toward a solution but that did not completely solve the problem I wasn't really helping. I found I got sucked farther and farther into these people's problems that I couldn't do anything about, and eventually I wound up on their growing enemies list.
TTW desperately wants to be able to keep Yoshi. We all understand that. But she can't keep him with her unless and until she has a stable job and an income that will allow her to rent a place where they can safely live together. Unfortunately that can't happen all at once, but if she would allow Yoshi to be temporarily cared for by someone who knows how to look after his breed of dog - the rescue in NJ, for example - she could find a place to live, get a job, and stabilize her life to the point where she could take him back and care for him. Unfortunately she won't agree to those incremental steps and has become angry at the very people who tried hard to work something out for her. As I also discovered, sometimes you can't just help and have to step away. I just hope things work out for TTW, somehow.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)She can't get Yoshi back from Akita Rescue. That's why she kept avoiding that "reasonable suggestion" to relinquish the dog before she got evicted.
She gave Yoshi to msanthrope's ex because he would give the dog back to her later. This is why she flipped out when the dog ended up at the rescue organization anyway. Some people have also said the rescue organization puts down the dogs that can't be placed/retrained - not sure if that's true, but that might also be a factor in her thinking.
The Velveteen Ocelot
(128,899 posts)As I understand it the local shelter is where Yoshi wound up only in the short term, and they were making arrangements for the Akita rescue to take him because the rescue had a lot of experience with the breed and felt he could be trained, but he never did go to the Akita rescue at all. Maybe I missed something but I was under the impression she could eventually get him back from the rescue if he had been sent there. The shelter euthanizes dogs they deem unadoptable but I don't think that's true of the rescue. Most rescues don't euthanize unless an animal is very ill.
The problem is that there is no good solution unless a temporary home can be found for Yoshi, because he can't safely live with her right now; and unless someone can figure out a way to make that happen under the current circumstances I don't know what else can be done. Maybe financial help? I think she might need more than might be available from DU.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)Then I just put rescue org to simplify it. Yoshi was left at a shelter that was going to send him to the rescue org. You are correct.
My understanding, though, is Akita Rescue also euthanizes. I could be wrong. I have never owned a dog and know almost nothing about them. My own focus here has been what's good for TTW.
Someone suggested a financial fund that was managed by someone other than TTW to take care of the dog. I think at this point TTW would only give Yoshi up if she were assured of getting him back, but there doesn't seem to be any resource available to make that happen. I keep hoping she can just get in her car with Yoshi and still find a relative that will take her in - with a big property and not children/pets.
I'm not sure anyone is in contact with TTW at this point, so this all may just be after-the-fact analysis at this point.
7wo7rees
(5,128 posts)touch with TTW. You just know it all and everything.
Oh and you did persuade OmahaSteve months ago to vouch for her because he was an "older DU'er".
Priceless. And now truly done.
daredtowork
(3,732 posts)She didn't reply to the PMs, so I don't know if she got what I sent her. I don't have a cellphone, but I would have given her my personal email if she had wanted to establish further contact with me. My understanding is her PM box was flooded at one point.
I don't know why you are calling my attempts to have other DU members contact TTW and vouch for her story "priceless". That seemed like the fastest way to counter the "skeptics". The reason I mentioned Omaha Steve is he posted skeptical remarks on her first post.
I've never claimed to know everything: I've only done what I can do, which is suggest resources for people in a near-eviction situation and attempt to improve TTW's fund-raising capabilities when there was still a chance of that.
I'm still truly baffled by whatever you are seeing, but I hope you will leave the door open that there's something off in the way you are seeing me here. There are a few outright trolls in these threads - and I hope you don't take that as "accusations against DUers" because they are trolls - whose main purpose seems to be to blow a lot of smoke. One big troll strategy is to repeatedly misrepresent a person until they get mad about it.
Anyway, I have great empathy for TTW as you also do.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)Can prevent someone from becoming homeless.
There's much that many of us can do for others that will be highly productive. If we can't figure out how to help in this situation, it doesn't mean we should stop our efforts.
Sometimes one has to accept one's limitations in order to keep being productive, and perhaps DU collectively has reached that point with this individual. There may be a few of us who can help here, but it doesn't seem that DU collectively can.
We shouldn't stop trying to help where we can make a difference just because it didn't work in this situation.
AngryOldDem
(14,180 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)
LexVegas
(6,949 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)at least nobody's asking to fund a criminal this time.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)I'm obviously out of the loop about that one.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)delete that...... I'm really not happy that I did not take the time to read that entire thread before linking to it.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)To get his life on track. Everyone deserves a second chamce. In TTW's case, she's had 4-5 and STILL refuses to do what must be done.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)Last edited Sun Aug 9, 2015, 07:41 PM - Edit history (1)
I am finding this saga a little microcosm of the mainstream dem vs. repub strife.
As democrats, we believe in helping. We say that the struggling person deserves compassion and a leg up, contributed by those of us who have the means. That's what a just society demands.
We also say that if we help, everyone benefits in the end. If TTW gets bridged across her crisis, then she and Yoshi get back on their feet and we are all better off: and we have one more bartender and cute dog in the world!
The republican idea, I think, is to put the onus on the struggling person. "Well, why is she keeping that dog? It's a luxury item that costs her plenty a month in food and vet bills and time! She needs to be responsible and give up the dog before she starts crying poor."
Who is right?
The "pfff, just give up the dog" crowd isn't humane. They arent at the woman's side, with a human heart for her suffering and emotional needs.
The "We'll fix this by giving money and time to bail her out!" crowd isnt succeasful. Soon enough they have discovered that their money and time was wasted: no one is better off; in fact the "helped" person is angry and others are resentful, frustrated, ready to throw in the towel.
That's the microcosm: DU trying to help a single, known person.
Now enlarge that to Da Government trying to help a whole town, or region, or race, or class.
Let's speak of the troubled community I am most familiar with: a small poor town with few employment prospects and rampant drug abuse. People there arent evil or lazy. But they arent saints either. They are products of their environment and individual personalities.
In this town, for example, some people are taking out loans for community college so they can get some training and get a decent job. Others are taking out loans just so they can quickly drop out, get back a cash refund, and spend it on oxycodone.
And a lot of them have Yoshis - babies and kids they brought into the world (often without much planning for the kid's well-being) and who they sometimes screw over in the same ways that TTW is (kinda understandably, due to her own problems) putting Yoshi in a bad spot.
How do you give that mix of people a better life? And protect their kids?
You wanna end the "war on drugs" which disrupts families? Fine - but it's drug abuse that disrupts families too, (and kills people, and wrecks dreams, and costs untold millions in health care and foster care and social work and disability and the grief of orphans and so on.).
Fix it.
Go ahead: I'm eager to see that.
Fix it in one town.
I don't have any answers - ZERO - but does anyone agree, based on the well-intentioned Yoshi fiasco, that "just raise taxes! Pour in some money! Give a helping hand!" isn't this magic solution to all problems?
TTW is ONE known individual and despite the concerted personal idealistic efforts of hundreds, we couldn't make her happy and stable. She is who she is and she'll do what she wants.
What's the conclusion, and what's the next step?
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...that throwing money at the problem of poverty isn't a viable solution.
Interesting...
TYY
Syzygy321
(583 posts)I have no answers.
Do you?
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...but your post was thought provoking. I believe that social safety networks are helpful and necessary. That said, the subject of this OP is an example of never enough and no good deed...
TYY
On edit: My recommendation to the subject of the OP was to eliminate debt by putting all of her stuff in a storage unit, prior to eviction, and using the donation money to pay for storage and a fresh start; even if it meant living in her car for a short time. My suggestion was not well received.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)I just think oversimplification - "I know how to fix the world" - is an enemy.
It's comfortable.
It's a good way to feel morally righteous and free of doubts.
It lets both sides demonize "those heartless bastards on the other side who won't see the light."
But does it address reality? Personally I think not.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)but the problem was she didn't raise sufficient cash to do that and was evicted.
sketchy
(458 posts)from this blog post:
Education Funding Equity: A Technocratic Justification vs. Jonathan Kozol’s Rationale
Posted on January 27, 2015 by janresseger
Link:
https://janresseger.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/education-funding-equity-a-technocratic-justification-vs-jonathan-kozols-rationale/
from the post:
"In a memorable keynote address fifteen years ago I heard Jonathan Kozol declare, 'People say that spending money on education is just throwing money at the problem. We ought to try that. It might work.'"
Certainly investing in public school equity and improvement has not been the trend in recent years. About ten years ago, New York set up a new school funding formula to send more money to poorer school districts to remedy the lawsuit in Campaign for Fiscal Equity v. New York, but when the Great Recession hit, New York’s general assembly stopped funding the plan it had created. At about the same time the legislature of Pennsylvania created a formula for the purpose of equalizing school funding, but in came Governor Tom Corbett who cut a billion dollars out of the state’s education budget, and the new formula died. Kansas has radically cut taxes and slashed education funding accordingly; it is mired in a lawsuit to try to force the state to fund education. And last Friday the state supreme court in Texas agreed to hear an appeal of what the Associated Press calls “the gargantuan school finance ruling” that found “the way the state pays for public schools is unconstitutional, saying funding levels are inadequate and are unfairly distributed around the state.”
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article8052639.html
..........
more:
As for spending priorities for education, “Unfortunately, a number of states provide less funding for high-poverty schools than for low-poverty schools, while some others provide about the same funding to high-and low-poverty districts. As of 2011, only 14 states provided at least 5 percent more funding per student for high-poverty districts than low-poverty districts. Further, many states provide inadequate funding for schools overall… None of the states with the ten highest incarceration rates ranked in the top half of states for school funding per student in 2011.”
Surely it would seem that in a compassionate and just society—a society whose citizens believe in equality, fairness, and the American Dream—these numbers would be an adequate motivator for reform. But in case a commitment to the common good isn’t enough to motivate us these days, there is a new opinion piece by Noah Smith for Bloomberg View—a sort of plutocrats’ justification for public school spending, Throw More Money at Education. http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-23/spending-more-on-public-schools-boosts-u-s-economy
Smith references a longitudinal economic paper, just published by the National Bureau of Economic Research, that justifies school funding by demonstrating a correlation with children’s future earnings. The paper comes from economists C. Kirabo Jackson, Ricker Johnson and Claudia Persico. http://www.nber.org/papers/w20847 “The economists find that spending works. Specifically, they find that a 10 percent increase in spending, on average, leads children to complete 0.27 more years of school, to make wages that are 7.25 percent higher, and to have a substantially reduced chance of falling into poverty. These are long-term, durable results. Conclusion: throwing money at the problem works. Here’s the hitch: The authors find that the benefits of increased spending are much stronger for poor kids than for wealthier ones. So if you, like me, are in the upper portion of the U.S. income distribution, you may be reading this and thinking: ‘Why should I be paying more for some poor kid to be educated?’ After all, why should one person pay the cost while another reaps the benefits?”
To convince such a skeptic, Smith counts the ways increasing spending might be worth the investment: “When poor Americans become better workers, it doesn’t just boost their wages. It also boosts the profitability of the companies where they work.” “The more industries can use U.S. workers instead of Chinese workers, the more industries will base their production in the U.S.” “If you own a business, you might need to hire some low-income people.”
****************
At least with regard to education, "throwing money at the problem" seems to work.
Syzygy321
(583 posts)a good, longterm trial of throwing money into education, as follows:
Suppose the ten states ranked worst in poverty are divided into two cohorts of five. One group receives dedicated federal money - a lot of it- earmarked for the worst-performing counties in that state, and guaranteed to keep flowing for fifteen years. That's long enough to see an entire generation go from HeadStart to HS graduation. Then one could compare data between the federally-funded cohort and the five states that didn't get the boost.
On quick skim I have a problem with your article using lines like this: "None of the states with the highest incarceration rates were in the top half of spending on education.". That's such a half-assed correlation, with so many potential confounding variables, that it smells of someone combing through random data points to prop up an argument.
sketchy
(458 posts)from link:
https://janresseger.wordpress.com/2015/01/27/education-funding-equity-a-technocratic-justification-vs-jonathan-kozols-rationale/
For extremely sensible advice on public policy around budgets and expenditures, I recommend the reports from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, which last October released a paper on climbing investment in prisons across the states and an accompanying drop in state allocations for public education. http://www.cbpp.org/files/10-28-14sfp.pdf
“Even as states spend more on corrections, they are underinvesting in educating children and young adults, especially those in high-poverty neighborhoods. At least 30 states are providing less general funding per student this year for K-12 schools than before the recession, after adjusting for inflation; in 14 states the reduction exceeds 10 percent. Higher education cuts have been even deeper: the average state has cut higher education funding per student by 23 percent since the recession hit, after adjusting for inflation. Eleven states spent more of their general funds on corrections than higher education in 2013. And some of the states with the biggest education cuts in recent years also have among the nation’s highest incarceration rates. This is not sound policy.”
and the article goes on...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The issue isn't more money vs less money. The issue is libertarian "freedom of choice" vs paternalistic "I know what you need".
Giving money to TTW didn't create positive change. NSA donations in fact didn't prevent, or even meaningfully defer, the tragedy of the outcome for which they were solicited. She's on the street and the dog is bouncing from shelter to shelter.
I think that no amount of money can mitigate bad choices. People make bad choices for a variety of reasons, but society can't always create good outcomes when giving complete deference to compromised judgment.
What was needed in this situation was for TTW to give the dog to a good shelter/rescue, then move to a decent no-dogs apartment she could afford. When the only sensible/reasonable/sane solutions to a problem are all considered off the table because they're mean or heartless or insensitive or "mansplaining"...
... it's all a big Kobayashi Maru.
The only choices for people who faced with that choice (donate or not) are to ignore the misery or to participate in extending it. Sensitive, kind, compassionate critics of that attitude might denigrate it by calling us judgmental. Fair enough, but the antonym of good judgment is stupidity.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)It would rip my heart out to have to give one of them up. But I WOULD do it, if it were in the best interest of the pet.
TTW can't care for the pet. She can't care for herself even. There are places she could live where she could keep her pet, no doubt, but where she lives now is not one of them, apparently. I wish her luck, but she's seen her last dime from me until she can show she can be realistic about the situation she's in.
RobinA
(10,464 posts)when you try to assist in this sort of problem you have to correctly identify the problem, which is where a lot of help goes wrong. I had always suspected that the problem in the TTW situation was not lack of money, so naturally, money would not solve the problem. Not that it wasn't PART of the problem, but something needs to be fixed before money will help. People and communities throw money at problems and then exclaim that, "Look, it didn't work." Well, then, money was probably not the issue, just a byproduct of the issue. OR, the problem you threw money at is not the real problem.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)I'm waiting to hear back from her and won't post any more about it unless I get her permission to do so.
crazylikafox
(2,900 posts)Please let us know more when and if you can. There are many of us here that have been very concerned and just wish her well.
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)I'm thinking about donating a little again but I'd like to get an update. Thanks.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)where she has to carry a hammer in the common areas to defend herself from another tenant who has already assaulted her. Yoshi is living a semi abandoned life in the doggie daycare. Those good people have yet to be paid for a single night of boarding and it's been over a month.
cwydro
(51,308 posts)TTW recently raised about a grand on DU...wondering why she didn't pay for the boarding.
And why did they take the dog back without payment?
What is the name of the doggie day care?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)My understanding is that they charged TTW $200 for the prior 3-4 weeks of boarding..... as of my information over the weekend that had not been paid.
it is Karen's k9....
http://www.karensk9care.com/
and yes they took Yoshi back......
mnhtnbb
(33,100 posts)on another thread to inquire about filing a complaint that could initiate a process
of getting some help for Yoshi.
http://www.pspca.org/humane-law-enforcement-and-litigation/cruelty-prevention/
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)But I do know that there are specific resources out there to help yoshi like getting in touch with the specific Bensalem shelter that have akita rescue people and of course getting in touch with the Akita rescue people in Toms River who would be more than willing to take him.
TTW has threatened some fairly serious legal action against me X and dog walker so of course I can't be objective.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Vinca
(53,262 posts)Taking an animal away from an owner is a last ditch action to save the animal. I don't know this lady or her whereabouts, but those who do should give it consideration.
Isn't that the same place he had to be rescued from because he was in a tiny cage with no water?
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)But if the situation hasn't improved there, is he going to be able to survive?
I'm still worried about this whole thing, because I hate what's been happening to both of them, but I feel I'm going to have to step back, because it's not helping my blood pressure.
I hope the threats against you, your ex and the dog walker get dropped. You all did a good thing, and you shouldn't feel bad in any way about it.
Hekate
(100,132 posts)