Apology to Bravenak

[shaayecanaan]

I realise that this is a bit late. I also realise that it should probably take the form of a PM, but that seems a bit presumptuous as I don't know her very well. I'm not sure if PMs work either if someone is blocked? Anyway.

I liked Bravenak's posts and was quite disappointed that she got blocked. I remember that she sometimes posted in response to I/P events, and that she once responded positively to a post I made about victims of American foreign policy in Vietnam and the middle east (I think she was the only person to do so).

I liked the fact that she gave a shit across the board, seemed quite a caring person and wasn't just a one-string guitar as can often be the case on DU.

I remember arguing the toss with her in a few threads that pertained to racism and feel quite bad about it now. I was probably being deliberately contrarian with her just to shoot the shit and looking back at it now it all seems quite mean-spirited on my part.

I also accept that a lot of people were complete arseholes to her, including some Sanders supporters both on DU and on twitter, and that that was pretty cringeworthy at times.

Anyway, I hope she's keeping on. Que sera sera.

[malaise]

1. Bravenak is a great DUer

Rec

[PeaceNikki]

2. She's a smart, strong and passionate woman. I adore her.

The jury system fucks minorities. It always has and always will. Any majority rule system does by design.

Miss you, B!!

[sufrommich]

3. She was alert stalked.Along with other AA posters here.

DU is becoming one of those infamous "white spaces".

[blackspade]

6. Agreed on the stalking.

It's pretty bad.
Alert stalking is a form of intimidation and should not be tolerated.

[nc4bo]

7. Yes she was and so are a few others....really bullyish behavior

Against them and it's not right.

Sometimes the jury system reminds me of a posse or mob.

[mopinko]

49. i hope the admins take a close look at that shit.

something has to give.

[nadinbrzezinski]

203. I hate to point this out

this is not a bug, it's a feature.

Like the bullying and stalking that is allowed, it is not a bug, it's a feature.

[Raksha]

280. I agree with you, Nadin.

It's not a bug but a feature. That's one of the reasons I don't frequent this site as often as I used to.

[closeupready]

58. I agree. Part of why I've made myself unavailable for juries.

The jury system here doesn't work fairly. So I'm not participating in it.

[missingthebigdog]

105. Please reconsider

The only way to make it work fairly is to have enough participants who will decide things fairly. Opting out makes the system worse.

[closeupready]

152. Ok, I will do that.

Cheers.

[zappaman]

125. That's not cool.

The jury system needs people like you on it.
Please reconsider.

[closeupready]

153. I will think again about it.

Cheers.

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. And I do not do juries, or alerts

the whole system is rigged, and it has to be so obvious that it's failure will be beyond reproach.

For starters, it should go back to 6 people, not 7. But in reality it should simply be scrapped.

But as I said to Mopinko above, this is not a bug, it's a feature. It is meant to work this badly.

[Sheepshank]

109. Agreed

An outstanding person, a passioate, smart caring person, who felt deeply and was longsuffering in her explanations over and over, trying to explain her life experiences vs. the ones she was told she lives. And yet she is blocked? In defference to some of the nasty posters we have seen here recently?

The place, the system, the process stinks to high heaven.

The swarming, the comments made by Bernie jurors is sickening. This is what Du has become to it's own?

There is certainly a concerted effot to white wash the site. I hope the Bernistas are proud of their legacy here.

[Comrade Grumpy]

162. Quit whining. EVERYBODY gets fucked by the jury system.

This just makes you sound childish and paranoid.

Some people manage to moderate their posting behavior so they don't get time outs. Some get too angry to care.

[Capt. Obvious]

165. When people I like go on time out the system is broken

and needs to be added to dustbin of history as the abject failure it is.

When people I dislike go on time out the system works as intended.

[Marr]

184. Pretty much.

I've been accused of 'stalking' by a couple of different posters-- and when I looked it up, just to see if I had in fact been inadvertently responding to their every post, I found that these were people I'd literally posted responses to a maximum of once a month. They were also, oddly enough, some of the same names that I've seen complaining about alert stalking.

I don't trust peoples' appraisals of rule enforcement like this at all. It's so opaque that they can just see whatever they want to see. And since they're never, ever in the wrong, the system is always broken when it comes up with an answer they don't like.

[pintobean]

237. Exactly. It's hilarious to watch. /nt

[Capt. Obvious]

243. It really is

Usually the people who go on timeout are victims of their own actions - usually with the longview in mind. People have long memories and slack may not be cut.

I greatly enjoy the lamenting over claimed bullshit hides that are held in a vacuum, and that only the post in question should be judged with nothing else brought into play - when one reads the progression of the subthread where the hide occurred it's obvious why it was hidden; and of course the long memory as well.

Granted, the majority of my hides were total bullshit and the result of alert stalking. The system is broken.

[MH1]

240. Bingo. nt

[sheshe2]

183. Yes.

[blackspade]

4. She is awesome.

I have found her to be persuasive and passionate about her perspective.
I look forward to her return!

[Smarmie Doofus]

5. She sounds wonderful. I don't really know her... other than the name.

But... in view of the above: why the heck would she be banned?

[magical thyme]

11. 7 hidden posts in 2 weeks

You can read them on her transparency page and decide for yourself whether she was "alert stalked" or earned the hides.

I, for one, had put her on hide the same day she was given a time out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=300456&sub=trans

[Codeine]

12. No offense, but she's brought more to DU than you ever have.

And a damned sight more than I have ever brought, if I'm being honest.

She's one of the few people I think this place is truly worse off without.

[magical thyme]

13. relevent to my post how? (rhetorical question; I'm truly not interested in your answer)

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, as I am to mine.

I found a couple of the hides bogus. But I have also seen people PPR'd from DU for far less than that string of very offensive posts that violated DU TOS, which included name calling and threatening to burn a group of DUers.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

19. That post was not a threat.

It was a quote from Game Of Thrones. Hence the mad King Aerys mention.

[magical thyme]

25. not everybody is familiar with Game of Thrones. I read it as a threat, as I

imagine others may have. (To make it clear, I was not on any of those juries, but I would have hidden some of the posts no matter who had written them. A couple of the posts on that last day are the ones that led me to put her on hide, even though I wasn't participating in the thread. If a friend had written them I would have contacted offline to see if they were ok.)

[Lilith Rising]

78. This seems like implied name-calling to me...

"If a friend had written them I would have contacted offline to see if they were ok."

So it's okay if you skirt the line but being straight forward isn't?

[magical thyme]

102. not even close

I've had friends contact me if they thought I was about to find myself in hot water. And I've done the same for friends.

It's my enemies who let me go too far in hopes that I'll end up punished.

[Lilith Rising]

147. About to find yourself in hot water

is very different from 'wondering if you're okay'.

Wondering if someone is okay is akin to wondering if they are having some kind of emotional problem.

[magical thyme]

151. being passionate or angry or upset about something to the point where you are on the brink

of saying or writing things I'll you'll later regret is not an "emotional problem." At least, not in my universe. It's being human.

[Gormy Cuss]

80. Everybody is familiar with the Google though

The person who replied to her even used another Game of Thrones reference. Jurors who actually cared to use their best judgment would have at least seen the context.

[yeoman6987]

148. A game of thrones reference at the end of the statement

would have been helpful and prevent the hide. I was not on any of her juries but I can't imagine having to google to find out what something is especially if someone is not even thinking TV show at the time of a jury decision.

[Gormy Cuss]

149. I consider it my job as a juror to understand the post well enough to assess whether it violates CS

YMMV. Yes, jurors will miss context sometimes.
What's happening here though is a defense of a hide even with knowledge of the reference

[yeoman6987]

155. I need to be a better juror then

It never occurred to me to do some research on replies I may misinterpret. If nothing else, this OP will have me making better informed jury decisions then perhaps I have been.

[BuelahWitch]

207. What a fucking piss poor excuse!*

*disclaimer-someone in some movie/tv show at some given time said "what a fucking piss poor excuse," I'm sure of it! Which one? Google that shit!

[Dr Hobbitstein]

211. Her entire post referenced GoT.

To take it as a threat is fucking idiotic.

[Sheepshank]

113. you imply that the sum total of her DU writings come down to the hides?

maybe you should be directing people to all of her posts and not just the ones hidden. Lets get a full picture of this wonderful person, and not the ones where she has been goaded incessantly and lashed out.

She is an amazing contributor to DU....and so many taking up space here will never be able to measure up.

[magical thyme]

124. You imply there was something wrong with those 7 posts.

I responded to a very specific question of why she was given a timeout.

The reason was because of 7 posts hidden within the time limit that DU's rules specify.

I've read here repeatedly that there was nothing wrong with those posts, that they shouldn't have been hidden, that she was being alert stalked.

My personal take is that 2 of them should have been left alone, but the others were over the top.

I directed that poster to the transparency page so they could read the posts that led to the timeout to understand what happened if they chose to do so.

[Sheepshank]

163. The poster said they wanted to get to know her better

the transparency page is a reflection of the bernie brigade swarming and hyper alerting on AA posters. And please spare me the excuses for alerting 4 times in one day.

[Comrade Grumpy]

168. In your fevered imagination, perhaps.

[Sheepshank]

186. tuck it away....

...and do try to be decent for once.

[magical thyme]

188. So why doesn't somebody answer that question, because I don't have a good or even fair

answer to how to see all of somebody's posts.

I know if you look at their profile you get their one most recent post. I know if you google their username within the board you get a random selection of related and unrelated threads, unsorted, that may be recent or may be from years ago.

I didn't stop anybody from responding to that poster and I don't see anybody else having taken the time to direct that poster to her best posts.

If you post in threads that have high visibility, showing up in "trending" and "greatest threads" your posts will have high visibility. If those posts are considered by a significant number of readers to step outside the lines of what they consider civility, you increase the odds of being alerted on and having the post hidden. That's not an excuse. That's reality.

If somebody is posting in a controversial way and they feel they are being "stalked" then they have a choice to tone down their posts or to give their stalkers something to complain about.

Now I have to get off my lazy arse and get some things done here at home, so I'm signing off at this point. Have a nice rest of the day...

[Blue_In_AK]

242. I can't speak for ALL members of the "Bernie Brigade,"

but I have been on several juries called for Brave's posts and have almost always voted to let them stand - specifically to avoid being labeled an "alert stalker" - even when I might have hidden a similar post from another poster.

As I said, I can only speak for myself, but I have always treated her with kid gloves. Why stir up a hornet's nest?

[Sheepshank]

276. Yup, did the same thing for someone in the Bernie group

gave the poster the benefit of the doubt, voted to keep the post (I think it was a 4-3 win for the poster)...reposted the jury results in that group, and got shit canned for my troubles.

I'm thinking perhaps there are too many trolls and Bernie supporters called to jury service, that are voting to Hide posts that have nothing to do with the ToS.

[cwydro]

30. Geez, "no offense?"

Why say something like that?

[Cha]

51. thank you.. what you say is so true.. the first part anyway. I don't know you but

you're absolutely right when you say Bravenak has brought so much to DU.

And, someone who points out her hides on an "apology" thread.. seems kinda petty to me.

[prayin4rain]

60. Yep, more than me, too. This is total BS. n/t

[JTFrog]

76. + infinity. n/t

[zappaman]

132. Nailed it.

[NCTraveler]

176. Brought more to du than I ever have.

They contribute great insight. They have been a must read for me. I consider them a teacher on this board.

[Logical]

190. Lol, wow , what a classy thing to say! nt

[AgingAmerican]

279. Doesn't giver her the right to attack and insult people

7 hides must be a new record, considering 5 hides makes you go away.

She knew what she was doing. I agree, it's hard not to like and respect her, but she isn't infallible and when she breaks the rules she goes away like everyone else.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

17. 4 of them within 15 minutes of each other.

And most of her hides were bullshit hides.

[magical thyme]

21. again, the questioner and anybody else, can read them on her transparency page

and make their own decision whether they were bullshit hides.

Again, I think a couple were. I think some were so far over the top that she's lucky not to have been PPR'd.

We're all entitled to our opinions here and we're entitled to express them. We have a lot of freedom as to how we express them, but there are limits. I leave it to others to make up their own mind.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

23. She spoke truth. It made some white people uncomfortable.

So that had to alert stalk her. There's an active effort on this site against AAs who speak out. Way too obvious. None of Bravenak's posts should've been hidden.

[magical thyme]

28. she spoke *her* truth.

again, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

You think none of her posts should have been hidden. I think some of her posts should have been hidden. I've seen people PPR'd for far less.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

29. There is only one truth.

Opinion is not truth.

And I can't think of anyone here who got PPR'd for being an activist for AA's and speaking truth. I can think of one recently who was PPR'd for calling HRC a c**t (even if he was trying to not-so-cleverly disguise it). Didn't you just get banned from the AA group for causing trouble?

[magical thyme]

35. I'd think you'd encourage people to read the transparency page

and decide for themselves, in that case.

To the best of my knowledge, I wasn't banned, but I was asked to leave and to trash the group. I apologized and left immediately, with as little "footprint" as I could given the situation, and trashed the group as was requested. I had landed in there by accident when via a thread that was in "trending" and didn't even notice where I was. I am now careful to check where I'm at, since "trashing" groups doesn't stop their threads from appearing in "trending" on the home page.

We're currently in GD now, so I'm not accidentally trespassing where my opinion is not welcome.

[stevenleser]

82. I definitely recommend that. And I would tell people to keep in mind that AA folks through BLM

are literally in a life or death struggle.

ACT Up was very rude in many of their protests in order to try to get people to pay attention to LGBT issues and the HIV/AIDS epidemic. But, again, people were dying and far too many people were not taking that seriously.

And similar to BLM, Act Up's efforts were successful both in the short term in raising the visibility of their issue, and in the long term by forcing action to be taken to save the lives. Actually that last part is a little premature in terms of actions being taken for BLM, but the Democratic candidates have all been forced to weigh in with platforms to deal with police brutality towards people of color.

In the face of all of that, some folks are upset that their sacred cow was protested and are criticizing the movement that is trying to save lives. If you were a part of the group whose lives were being taken, I can understand that upsetting you a little.

[notadmblnd]

107. Same happened to me, cept I wasn't asked to leave, just banned.

[malaise]

42. +1,000

There is only one truth.

[BillZBubb]

83. You get banned from AA for opposing the clique groupthink.

Anyone banned there should be applauded.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

86. Yeah,

Shitting all over black people and their causes should garner applause.

[BillZBubb]

89. Try sticking to the truth sometime.

I know several people, including me, who were banned there. I got it for calling out the hijackers of the Seattle rally. That wasn't shitting all over black people and it wasn't attacking the cause. It was attacking those particular grandstanding individuals.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

97. You realize "the cause" supports

those "particular grandstanding individuals". The fact that you had to go to the AA group (who wholeheartedly supports the movement) to whine about it says a lot about you.

It's like the MRA's who get banned from HoF, wearing their bans like a badge of honor.

[BillZBubb]

108. The fact that you make accusations without knowing the facts...

says a lot about you.

First, I was responding to a post from the "latest threads" entitled "Open letter to progressives: You’re doing it wrong and it’ll cost the Democratic Party". I didn't recognize that it was in AA until I got to the thread.

Second, to me someone posting an "Open Letter" is inviting those people cited (progressives) to read and comment. Maybe I am wrong, maybe I should just read it and agree without comment.

Third, I had no idea that AA wholeheartedly supports what happened in Seattle. Now I know--and I find that very, very disappointing--especially given what we now know about the disruptors.

Fourth, I am not whining. Like I said, if they ban me for responding to that, I wear it as a badge of honor. I want nothing to do with such an uptight, insecure clique.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

111. Facts:

#1 You were disruptive, and asked nicely to leave the group.
#2 After being asked to leave, you piled on again, ignoring the request to leave
#3 Then you were banned.

Wear that badge proudly. And continue to shit on threads in support of great AA DUers.


ETA: Citations:

First post (warning):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=20857

Second post (ban):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=21226

[BillZBubb]

117. Apparently you and facts are strangers.

First, I was not disruptive. There was no alert that I know of or the removal of my post. It was within the DU guidelines. Stating an opinion is not being disruptive except apparently in the AA Forum. That is a groupthink problem that AA should deal with.

If I was asked to leave nicely or otherwise, I didn't get the message--do they send a PM? I don't think I got one.

Third, I was banned. So, yep at least you got one thing right.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

122. Link to you being asked to leave.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1187&pid=20874

I've already posted the links of the two posts in question. Why must you double down on your dishonesty?

[zappaman]

135. At this point, it's quadrupling down on dishonesty.

No surprise.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

139. He's already on another thread...

Whining about it. Of course, leaving out what he ACTUALLY said and the ACTUAL responses, because we can't have honesty here when it comes to throwing the AA group under the bus. Just like when HoF was thrown under the bus. It's getting ridiculous here.

[sheshe2]

189. +1

[Comrade Grumpy]

169. Careful. There is only one truth, and Dr. Hobbitstein knows it.

And don't mess with the groupthink.

[LanternWaste]

202. Cool little bumper-sticker you wrote-- though unsupported by link provided

Cool little bumper-sticker you wrote-- though unsupported by link provided. Yet, as long as we're not pretending it's anything more substantive than a bumper-sticker, no real harm other than advertising our character...

[KittyWampus]

214. At least Dr. H. had the links to the actual posts in question for all to see.

LOL!

[Number23]

259. We've banned more people in the last TWO DAYS than in the previous FOUR FUCKING YEARS

And every last single one of them were people who came in for the sole purpose of disrupting the forum.

When we talk about housing discrimination, racism in media, discrepancies in prison sentencing, these people are NOWHERE to be found. But they have absolutely stalked the forum since nobody in there, even the Sanders supporters in the forum, are prostrating before the closest Sanders bust they can get their hands on.

And now somebody is trying to portray their banning from the AA forum on a DEMOCRATIC web site as some kind of heroism worthy of applause. I am DYING...

[Dr Hobbitstein]

272. And these are the same people

who will ban any/everyone who steps in the BS group and doesn't shower Bernie with praise. Where "In my opinion, he can't win the nomination" is considered a smear, and ban worthy. But hey, let's go over to the AA group and shit on the rug, and while we're at it push some passive-aggresive racist bullshit about "white people get killed by cops, too. No one talks about it because we're so oppressed."

[stevenleser]

90. Those silly people of color get so upset that their fellow POC are being murdered. They should calm

down. They are upsetting other folks for cripes sakes.

[BillZBubb]

93. What a foolish comment.

[stevenleser]

94. No, what is foolish is that it needs to be said. nt

[BillZBubb]

95. No what is foolish is the pathetic generalization.

[stevenleser]

98. Which part? That their rhetoric upset folks? Because it clearly did. Or that POC are being murdered?

Nope, none of it is generalization.

[William769]

115. When someone has to hire an ambassador for race relations thats foolish

And definitely not presidential material. At least we truly know now that shit does roll down hill.

Have a nice day.

[BillZBubb]

118. I'm not sure what you are referring to.

You have a nice day too.

[TM99]

130. Typical!

So just weeks ago, Clinton supporters were saying that Sander's and O'Malley didn't have enough minority campaign staff.

Now that he has hired an exceptional media person who is a black activist, now it is foolish and not presidential material?

Yes, we do know now that the shit does roll down hill from the hypocrisy of Clinton supporters.

[William769]

131. Timing is just so perfect for this.

And for the record this is NOT my headline. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10141172613 back atcha!

[TM99]

140. It was already in the works.

What? You think they went out an hired a black lady because another unhinged black lady assaulted him at a rally for Social Security?

She is his National Press Secretary. Thanks for denigrating her in your rush to pat your smart ass on the back.

[William769]

141. You keep telling yourself that.

Thanks for playing and have a nice day.



P.S. I don't need to pat my ass, I have other people do it for me.

[zappaman]

142. Wtf?

Where can I get an ass-patter?
Are they expensive?

[George II]

146. I modified my selfie-stick.

[TM99]

143. Yup all a game to you

Third Way supporters.

Enjoy your smugness whilst it lasts.

[William769]

145. All the way to the White House!

First way, second way, third way & fourth way!

Riding the wave with Hillary to make history as the first female President!

See you at the crash & bern.

Seriously now, have a nice day.

[jeff47]

157. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Tue Aug 11, 2015, 03:58 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

It was already in the works.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7066225

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

"unhinged black lady"?? This is part of the reason why AA people here are (rightly) feeling pushed out.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Tue Aug 11, 2015, 04:09 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Committing assault and battery are not a good way to demonstrate you are not "unhinged".
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It's a discussion board. So, discuss.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The issue is "hingedness?"
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No! You know, unhinged people come in all colors and genders. We talk about it her ALL THE TIME! Some of you are going overboard with this, and it really makes DU look bad.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: It was the poster's opinion that the woman was 'unhinged'. I'm not seeing how this is an offense that must be hidden.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: JUST
STOP
DOING
THIS.
HIDE.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[TM99]

159. I am not surprised

though I am saddened that certain DU'er's support physically violent bullies.

[bvar22]

246. How can one be physically violent...

...through a computer keyboard?
Type real hard or something?


If this is some feature of Windows 10 that lets one reach through the screen and strangle conservative idiots,
I would love to have it.

[TM99]

247. Well, if Windows 10 will help you with

reading comprehension that would be a plus as well.

My post was alerted on for calling the Seattle demonstrator 'unhinged'. I expressed sadness that DU members accept that woman who was physically violent with Sanders.

In your rush to defend Bravenak, you neglected to fully comprehend that I was not calling Bravenak physically violent.

Want to try your response again now that you have been corrected?

[kwassa]

250. MARISSA BEAT BERNIE UP ???? WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US ???

That changes everything.

[TM99]

251. She shoved him.

It is on the videos.

That is an assault. You get that right?

And yes, I dismiss as unhinged people who fling rage fueled insults, shove other people, make up shit to play the victim, and use a legitimate cause to support their own twisted ideology of extremism.

[kwassa]

252. Okaaaaay. A terrible assault has taken place. Hmmmmm.

Your argument is terribly convincing.

Maybe, just terrible.

[TM99]

254. So, if a young woman or young man

shoved Hillary Clinton that would be ok?

How about a young, angry black kid getting close enough and shoving President Obama at Selma?

But hey it is a-ok to shove a white dude, right?

You are a big part of the problem, not in one way a part of the solution.

[kwassa]

255. Sounds like Bernie isn't strong enough to be President ....

if he can't survive being shoved.

Is this what you are saying?

[Comrade Grumpy]

173. Cops killed 350 black people in the past year. They also killed 850 non-black people.

This is not an exclusively black issue. If you and BLM want to ignore or minimize the problem of endemic police violence by making it a purely race issue, I can't stop you.

[Hekate]

171. Walking into someone else's house and spitting on the rug is bad manners. Take it to GD and GD-P

People form affinity groups for a reason, and it's not "groupthink" but a way to get a break from the ongoing brawls at DU and sort out issues of interest with friends.

But you just keep patting yourself on the back for your boorish behavior.

Hekate
BOG, HRC

[LanternWaste]

200. Creative, though unsupported allegation... again.

Creative, though thoroughly unsupported allegation... again.

Your self-validating second line is also rather consistent.

[pnwmom]

225. She did have some bullshit hides, based on her opinion rather than how she expressed it. n/t

[George II]

41. Let's boil those 7 hides down to this - FOUR hides in about a half hour!

And we don't even know how many other alerts there were that night that DIDN'T get hidden.

THAT is "alert stalking"! Someone out there has a problem, and it's not bravenak.

[magical thyme]

44. in which case I'd expect you to encourage people to read the hidden posts

on her transparency page.

4 hides in half an hour means nothing until you read the innocent posts that were hidden.

[KittyWampus]

52. Yes indeed, you can she how see was STALKED. In close proximity. Because she had the NERVE

to try and explain what black activists are trying to express and the why and how.

Too many Sanders supporters have helped make DU an even whiter place because they can't tolerate criticism of their candidate.

There are some really laudable exceptions. And I salute them.

[Cha]

73. That's what the alert police thought because they couldn't handle what she had to say.

[JTFrog]

85. Who left the door open again? n/t

[Hekate]

244. I wish they'd leave the names up. I'm always curious to know who the troll was.

[Thinkingabout]

63. One alert was terrible and the alerter was more abusive than the post Bravenak posted.

Yes, she had terrible alerts, it should not be happening where a person with different opinion, alerts are for abuse but it appears in her case it was a difference in opinion.

[Chan790]

65. I think the posts in question and the timeline make it clear she was alert-stalked.

It's just one more reason I'd argue that the jury/alert experiment in self-policing and self-moderation has been an abject failure. It was worth a try...now it's worth its rightful place in the shit-can. I'm far nastier, meaner and cruder (and profane) than Bravenak on her worst day and what do I have to show for it?

1 hide.

[magical thyme]

138. your one hide may have more to do with visibility than content

if you are truly meaner, nastier, cruder, etc.

I was pizza'd from DU some years ago for far, far less. Apparently I violated an unwritten rule because I never really did have even a clue why. It came out of the blue; I hadn't posted for a week and my most recent posts were supporting somebody who was either grieving a loss or facing an illness, maybe both, I forget which now. Next time I tried to post, discovered I was history.

I've seen accusations of alert stalking all over the place. I'm sure that for more outspoken and visible posters, it's possible that such a thing is happening. But if you see you racking up the hides, imo the best thing to do is don't give anybody a reason to alert. It is possible to do that.

On days when I realize I'm likely to put myself in danger, I stay off the keyboard.

In any event, don't forget she is simply on timeout. It will end and she'll be able to post again. Even people who are PPR'd can come back with new identities.

[tblue37]

106. I read most of her posts when she made them and the rest just now.

I don't think any of them were hideworthy.

They were angry, frustrated rants. In fact, hiding them just reinforces the notion of white fragility, as though we can't handle the frustration of black people who get upset that we just won't listen. I don't agree with a couple of her assertions, but I can see why she got so upset, and I think that despite the "heat" of her last few rants, they still did not cross the line.

[KamaAina]

208. All but one of them 4-3 hides.

I seem to recall that 1strongblackman piled up a lot of 4-3 hides as well. Coincidence?

[tammywammy]

8. Her voice is missed

I look forward to her return.

[octoberlib]

9. We need to listen and learn from our AA members, not alert stalk them

when what they're saying makes us uncomfortable. K &R for bravenak

[Codeine]

10. I don't always agree with her

but she's awesome, funny, whip-smart, and a fierce advocate -- I hope she'll be back.

And those were some bullshit hides, juries. Shame.

[Gormy Cuss]

45. +1

on all counts.

[Shankapotomus]

15. And now she's dead

And you killed her.

j/k

[George II]

84. It looks like westboro baptist church showed up to protest her funeral...

....but forgot to bring their signs that say 'GOD HATES BRAVENAKS!'

[Dr Hobbitstein]

88. I was gonna use that WBC line in an earlier post.

It had me laughing earlier today when I heard it.

[Shankapotomus]

91. I actually don't even know Bravneks

Never heard of her until this thread. She sounds nice, though.

[Cha]

241. "GOD HATES BRAVENAKS!" "Seven hides all sinful!! Shame shame shame!!"

[brer cat]

16. She made some people uncomfortable

by speaking the truth, and that led to her being alert stalked. Her voice is golden and we need that point of view whether it makes us uncomfortable or not.

You are a very good person to post this, shaayecanaan.

[GeoWilliam750]

18. Agreed - Bravenak makes DU a better place, and I wish her speedy return

Bravenak speaks Truth, and Truth - especially when it reflects poorly upon us - is not easy to accept.

As is said - it is easier to forgive someone for being wrong than it is to forgive them for being right.

[sheshe2]

193. +10000

What you said. Good to see you GeoWilliam.

Gotta dash to work~

[prayin4rain]

20. Bravenak is awesome! n/t

[Gothmog]

22. Bravenak is a great member of DU and I am sorry that she is in time out

[onehandle]

24. This is what DU has become.

Last edited Tue Aug 11, 2015, 10:44 AM - Edit history (1)

All to support a paper dragon 'movement' designed to weaken Democrats.

One that will ultimately fail.

[Bluenorthwest]

274. Don't kid yourself, this is what DU always was. In 2008 it was LGBT people being used as political

fodder and being attacked for strong self advocacy in the face of Democratic campaigns that universally rejected equality for us and in the case of Obama held religious based rallies that were openly hostile to gay people and which used literal hate preachers to pander to the crowds.

Most of DU sided with the bigots then, that's damn sure. LGBT posters were driven off, purged, mocked, denigrated and bullied.

Today on DU, you can find people who are fully in support of heckling Bernie Sanders who in the past have condemned heckling and disruptive politics entirely, fully, absolutely. They have said those who do such things, at anytime for any reason are complete and total fools. They attacked LGBT activists for doing that which they support when it is done by others. Bias. Then they proceed to attack anyone who has any criticism of the activists, in spite of the fact that they themselves have stridently criticized activists for the exact same tactics.

Many of the people who are supporting the Seattle action are showing in the process how bigoted they were toward LGBT activists who interrupted events. We were idiots, fools, posters said they were just sick of those tactics, no matter who uses them. But what they meant was they don't like LGBT people.

So this is what this place was, this is not what this place has become. This is what this place is.

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. The treatment of bravenek and others since Saturday has been a remarkable spectacle

True colors, sure enough.

[Peacetrain]

27. Its so sad,

[Orrex]

31. She pulls no punches, and some people seem not to like that

In the context of their respective threads and the larger context of current reality, I don't believe any of the posts on her Transparency page should have been hidden.


k/r

[daredtowork]

39. I was on a jury for a person who was alerted

just for questioning "and she got banned for keeping it real?" That was ridiculous in itself, but it led me to look back at those previous posts myself. I agree: what an epic example of alert-swarming.

[Kingofalldems]

32. 'just look at those white ass crowds'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1171048

This is the discussion people want here? Hope not.

[daredtowork]

36. That's called speaking truth to power

I was saddened to find out that Bravenak lost out to a jury-mobbing. She was translating a truth her that some people are thinking but other people don't like to hear. That kind of truth should always be heard - if it's suppressed, it will always, always come back to haunt you.

Interestingly, the last thing she did before she was "Flagged for Review" was try to point out how she had tried to let people know in advance what the Seattle BLM people were up to.

Also, Bravenak was a member of MIRT. I had called on her help with an annoying sockpuppet that same morning. The darned thing probably slipped through the cracks because I didn't know Bravenak had been mobbed out in an alley.

[TBF]

38. She was angry and frustrated.

I can understand that given the situation. I think we do need her voice. Another kid shot in Ferguson on the anniversary of Mike Brown. My law enforcement friends shout "criminal". But as dems we realize there's a reason so many black men are in jail - bigotry and long-term poverty. They can go on about "individual choices" (and they do ad naseum) but the fact is that it's a systemic problem. Wealthy Americans brought folks over in boats, enslaved them, and then when forced to they set them free with very little to make their way. Brutal. We tried to "help" those in poverty when we put them up in "projects" and we know that didn't work very well.

As a member of white America my view is that we have to come up with some better solutions. And we can't do that in a vacuum - the people affected need to be part of the conversation.

[BillZBubb]

128. So we give her special leeway to post hurtful, rude, or over the top material?

I think we should all be treated here at DU to the same standard. We ought to be able to have these tough discussions and disagreements without going overboard.

The jury system, though not perfect, is about the only way to get close to that objective. I've certainly pushed the envelope on some of my posts, but I try to rein myself in when I feel I'm going too far. Bravenak needs to learn to get her point across in a more reasoned manner. Hopefully, this time out will help in that regard.

[Orrex]

43. As a white-ass person, I can't imagine getting offended by that phrase.

And as over-the-top insults go, that's about as mild as it gets.

[Cha]

70. thank you!

[Orrex]

103. Many years ago I got into an argument with an employee

I was managing a Hardee's, and it was a stupid disagreement about curly fries or whatever. In the heat of it, he presented me with some ultimatum, topping it off with "you like that, white boy?"

I was too dumb and, in retrospect, too privileged to realize that he'd insulted me, because I'd never been in a situation where being a "white boy" was a negative or a hindrance.

Thanks to the structure of our culture, there is simply no race-based insult that can injure a white person in the way that people of color can be (and frequently are) verbally attacked. Complaining about being identified as the "white-ass crowd" makes the white-ass look and sound like a spoiled baby.

[Cha]

114. Agree.. everything Black Americans have been through over the centuries... thanks to

ignorant white people.. do not think that "white-ass crowd" qualifies as something to get upset about.

And, it's still going on, exponentially the killing of Black kids and adults by US police violence.. that's why #BlackLivesMatter has evolved.. from Trayvon Martin and all the killings before and since.

[greatauntoftriplets]

133. This white-ass person agrees with you.

[Starry Messenger]

46. I thought it was hilarious.

And since one of the women who protested Bernie have been called "subhuman" without any censoring from DU, I think the critique is deserved.

[msrizzo]

166. Ugh, glad I missed that. nt

[Number23]

260. Holy Christ on a mother flipping cracker. Holy Shit

But you're not at all surprised by the AUTHOR of that filth, are you?? Lord knows I'm not.

[Starry Messenger]

262. It's why I give zero fucks about a lot of feelings about BLM.

If only so much ink had ever been spilled here from some quarters on the Black people being killed. I woke up this morning and saw that post in my replies.

[Number23]

264. And I bet a jury left it alone with the old "Debate, don't censor!1" garbage

As non-shocked as I am by who wrote that post, I have to appreciate the person who called him out on it even though he or she also disagreed with the #BLM tactics. If more people did that here this place wouldn't be such a clown show.

[George II]

48. That's a single sentence taken out of a longer post.

I've been called "white ass" many times, and at times I've seen people here called "dumb ass" as well as "black ass". They're expressions people use.

What is wrong with "white ass"? As far as her characterization of the demographics of the crowd, she was 100% correct.

[Gormy Cuss]

50. What's objectionable about that?

The use of the term "ass" or her pointing out that it's a sea of white faces at a Sanders event?

If the former, perhaps those offended by common slang should consider the message around the words rather than playing Curse Word Bingo with the jury system.

If the latter, what the ever-loving fuck is wrong with that? Either the comment is made up shit or it's a damning observation of the campaign strategy.


(n.b. curse words added to help the Bingo players)

[prayin4rain]

55. Oh, boo-hoo....give me a break. n/t

[Kingofalldems]

101. Such a well thought out response.

[prayin4rain]

116. You're confused about what it means? n/t

[Kingofalldems]

120. Looks like you are calling me a baby.

[prayin4rain]

136. Hmph, well, I guess you're right, brevity was the wrong choice in this case.

It means that no reasonable adult would honestly be insulted, offended, or upset by Bravenak using the word ass to make the point that the crowd was full of white people. Feigning such insult, offense, or upset is disingenuous. So, no, not calling you a baby, but pointing out how obvious it is that you're faking.

[Kingofalldems]

182. What are you talking about?

Since when is it okay in an adult discussion to use the term 'white ass'?

[Orrex]

187. About the same time that it became ok to ask "what the fuck are you talking about?"

You know, in an adult conversation.

[Kingofalldems]

192. Touche.

See edit.

[prayin4rain]

201. Haha, perfect. n/t

[Kingofalldems]

215. Except the f word is an expletive, the other a racial slur.

[prayin4rain]

218. White ass is a racial slur??? What? n/t

[Kingofalldems]

220. Matter of opinion. In my opinion as well as a DU jury, yes.

[prayin4rain]

221. That's a stretch.

Bravenak's post was more likely hidden because it expressed a disfavored view point, not because the jury thinks white-ass is a racial slur. IMO

[Orrex]

194. In fairness, I *did* make the baby comparison

Complaining about being identified as the "white-ass crowd" makes the white-ass look and sound like a spoiled baby.

From Reply #103, and I stand by the comparison

[prayin4rain]

206. Can barely see the forest for all the

white-ass baby fakers. .... or something like that.

[Codeine]

57. Are they or are they not white-ass crowds?

Seriously, my fellow white DUers, we can withstand light jabs like that with ease. Let's not be such delicate flowers, okay?

[msanthrope]

92. my white ass thinks it's high time for that fucking discussion. nt

[SunSeeker]

185. Exactly right.

The fact that so many here are offended by what she said demonstrates the need for that discussion.

[msanthrope]

197. Precisely. nt

[hunter]

99. Seriously? You take that personally?

For the record, I find white ass crowds a little disturbing also.

I grew up white in an Ivory Soap 99.44% pure white ass community and couldn't wait to get my own very bright and easily sunburned ass out of there for a more cosmopolitan place.

Anyone who hasn't recognized that Bernie appeals to a few white "liberal" voters for the simple reason he's not black and he's not a woman, simply isn't paying attention.

[Kingofalldems]

100. No, I didn't take it personally.

Found it revealing though.

[hunter]

110. Revealing of what, exactly?

What do you mean by that?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

236. The post you linked to really deserves to be hidden.

Change all the words 'white' to 'black'! What a nasty piece of work.

I'm glad she's on a time-out.

[nomorenomore08]

268. If it were white kids getting gunned down senselessly left and right by scared black folks...

would you give two shits about the hurt feelings of other black folks who weren't directly affected in any way?

[nomorenomore08]

267. The apparent lack of diversity among Sanders supporters - while not inherently a negative -

is conspicuous enough to, perhaps, raise a few questions about why certain folks do or don't support him.

It's not about the man himself, for the most part. It's about people's priorities, and how some of them try to insist that others' priorities don't matter so much. Which is easy when you're not the one worried about yourself or your loved ones needlessly coming to harm because of blind fear and hatred.

[TBF]

33. This Bernie supporter has no problem with Bravenak

and in fact learned from her writing.

As I've said in other threads, I believe this is an area where admin should step in and reinstate, imo.

[Agschmid]

216. I also feel the same way, I had no problem with her or her posts.

And if I did have a problem I said it, and didn't use the alert button.

I do not agree that a reinstatement is the right thing, it sets a precedent for the future which I don't love.

[deutsey]

34. Whew...I thought she had been tombstoned at first

I'm relieved to see that doesn't appear to be the case.

I've been on a self-imposed exile, lurking mostly on the margins of DU lately, so I'm not sure what the drama behind this is. I've always liked Bravenak's posts, though, and am glad this only seems to be a timeout for her.

[Mbrow]

37. Personally I would not have hidden

any of Bravenak's post, I've made my feelings known about hides on several occasions. I guess my point is you can talk to people you disagree with by using common sense, logic and compassion for your fellow human beings, and if they make a fool of themselves that is their problem. But Bravenak did not fall into the category of a foolish person, just a bit outspoken.

[JI7]

40. she made people uncomfortable

Better to shut her up than to face reality

[SusanCalvin]

47. Thank you. nt

[canoeist52]

53. "Do not post bigotry based on someone's race or ethnic origin"

Pretty sure this includes "white asses" as well.

"And look at those white ass crowds."

[KittyWampus]

59. I hope you're also alerting all the vile posts Bernie Sanders supporters are writing

in their zeal to punish the BLM activists. Some extremely vile posts.

A minority observing the demographic make up of a crowd isn't racist, btw.

But then YOUR candidate, Bernie Sanders, doesn't do demographics. He is quoted as saying just that.

[Cha]

75. Those who spewed vitriol are the losers.

[Marr]

68. Repeatedly labelling Sanders supporters racists is offensive.

And worthy of a hide.

[KittyWampus]

71. And since no one is doing that… your post doesn't seem relevant.

Critiquing a candidate and his supporters reactions and trying to explain why it's offensive is not calling them racist.

Overly sensitive white people need to get over themselves. Black people haven't had that luxury. EVER.

[Marr]

77. The juries didn't agree with you. /nt

[JTFrog]

112. Given what the jury system on DU has become, that's not saying much at all. n/t

[mythology]

121. Bravenak has absolutely labeled DUers as racist

In fact she called DUers racist for disliking Kanye West. Post 83 in the link below. Bravenak decided to act in the way she does. She chooses to throw claims of racism at others, oddly not everybody likes that especially when the criteria for being labeled as such seems mostly to be disagreeing with her. There are other posters here who have had a mandatory break for their posting style, including one who just got off of a time out who are white. She didn't get a time out for being a supporter of minority rights. She got it for her habit of attacking and belittling others.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026913824

[KittyWampus]

156. Context is everything. Unless you are white and fragile.

[Comrade Grumpy]

178. More race-baiting bullshit. And you know what else is bullshit?

You can sit here all day slagging white people.

Imagine if someone made a similarly rude remark about black people. They'd be hammered as bigots. Correctly.

[Zorra]

212. The white, fragile folks get time out for losing their shit while posting also, just

like black fragile folks, and fragile Third Way trolls do.

Bravenak is a hoot, but it could be maybe she needs some competent help with picking the correct people to keep off of her juries.

[Orrex]

160. That is a false claim.

In this post, Bravenak asserts that DU as a whole has a racist attitude toward Kanye, but she certainly did not label DUers as racist.

When you make the absolute claim that "Bravenak has absolutely labeled DUers as racist," then your absolute claim is false unless it is literally true. Your absolute claim is not literally true, so it is false.

[Gormy Cuss]

72. Where's the bigotry in that?

Commenting that a crowd is mostly white is not bigotry.

[Kali]

74. OFFS

trying to demonstrate what another thread was discussing? white fragility - you haz it

[Kingofalldems]

96. Good to see someone who gets it.

She didn't need to include that phrase but chose to anyway.

Revealing.

[Marr]

54. She earned her time out.

I don't see a reason for apologies. Yes, people have been assholish to her on occasion, and she's done the same.

[KittyWampus]

62. LOL!

Observation- Those most inclined to throw the term "Authoritarian" out there, or support those who do, are often the least tolerant.

[Marr]

64. Ah, you edited your post.

Last edited Tue Aug 11, 2015, 11:24 AM - Edit history (1)

I'm not sure what your point is with that 'authoritarian' line. It seems about an inch away from that old 'you're the one who's intolerant, because you won't tolerate my racist views' line, to be honest.

[David__77]

56. I don't know anything about all this really.

I haven't been too active here. I read four posts that I definitely would not have voted to hide. I read another that seemed to me to imply that a white crowd in itself connotes the presence of white supremacists. While I think there are probably plenty of white supremacists among white people generally, that seemed to me to be a generalization, the type of which has been blocked here at DU over the years. I wouldn't have gotten any TV reference about burning things or people, and probably would have voted to hide that. Generally speaking, I'd vote to hide things that use what I consider to be foul language (F***, etc.) directed toward a specific person, or what I find to be gratuitous insults not based on a specific political position.

I also saw another reference to "white supremacists supporters." I don't now if that meant a crowd a white supremacists, or supporters of a specific white supremacists candidate. That also seems out of line of what I've seen at DU over the years, and a pretty broad generalization.

[David__77]

69. Specifically, this...

"I got my SNOOTFULL of the white supremacists supporters."

I don't know if this is identifying Bernie Sanders as a white supremacist, or saying that Bernie Sanders has white supremacist supporters. The absence of an apostrophe makes it hard for me to tell. Either way, it struck me as a generalization. I'll agree that there are plenty of white liberals out there that have little reality on day-to-day experience of being Black. And I think lots of white people can be quite defensive when confronted with anything resembling an accusation of being anything other than perfectly enlightened. That said, is DU the place for such confrontation, when generalized to either a Democratic presidential candidate, or to that some generalized segment of that candidate's supporters?

[JTFrog]

119. Yes. DU is the place for such confrontation.

Anywhere and anytime is the right place and time for this confrontation. People of color are dying RIGHT NOW in our country merely for the color of their skin.

I'm so tired of hearing how uncomfortable and defensive this discussion makes some white people. And I am absolutely fucking tired of those working so hard to shut down the discussion.

[David__77]

161. I understand.

In such case, I think a change in terms of service would be needed; specifically with regard to peer moderation.

[marble falls]

67. She was alert trolled and she allowed herself to be drawn into angry, angry responses.....

I miss her and I hope she come back.

[Logical]

196. Alert trolled is bullshit conspiricy shit! How could you set thst up so....

You get the jurors you want. FFS what a joke!

[marble falls]

219. If you get alerted enough the laws of averages creep up on you. She allowed herself to be drawn...

into angry in temperate speech. I didn't believe it either until I started watching her and 1strongblackman and what was going on around them. Read their transparency pages. On Bravenak, especially. Only the last hide was truly hideable. Read the entire thread and see if you don't agree that a good part of what was posted wasn't just as hidable as Bravenak. But they were not alerted on and not juried. They werealso alerted late at night hen the jury pool is less.

You don't need a whole jury to affect an outcome, in Bravenak's case it only took one vote in all six hides.

[Logical]

233. I read her transparency page, and her hides were no worse than mine have been. If you are....

rude enough you get hides.

[aikoaiko]

81. Some people who are trying to make an impassioned point sometimes make word choices that

some others think are over-the-top or disruptive especially when they think they are the targets of such posts.

This is true of many topics but we see it clearly in the primary races. Right now, DU is overwhelmingly Bernie Country so juries are more likely to view word choices through that lens. Bravenak "liked Bernie" as she often said, but hated how "his supporters" defended their candidate.

I wish she wasn't hidden. I wish we, including me (maybe especially me), could all find less antagonistic ways of discussing Bernie's strengths and weaknesses.

I hope she comes back. She has historically been a forgiving and open-minded person.

[BillZBubb]

87. No apology is necessary. She is opinionated and passionate which is fine.

But she was too often over the top. She many times didn't treat others with respect, so she received that treatment back in kind.

I find it interesting how people bemoan her time out after 5 juries found a problem with her posts. They couldn't all have been those evil Sanders supporters. Perhaps a bit of introspection is in order.

[Sheldon Cooper]

164. That's mighty gracious of you to decline the apology on Bravenak's behalf.

Mighty gracious, indeed.

[jalan48]

104. The level of rage is something we can't understand unless we are experiencing what is happening in

the black community-police shootings of unarmed citizens and citizens dying while in custody. Citizens that could be our friends or family. As a white person my reaction is incredible sadness, I want to see something done to stop it. However, I feel it from the safety of my community which is mostly white and where the police aren't shooting my friends on a regular basis. Does this make me an uncaring person? No, it just means it's not immediate. I think Bravenak is expressing the immediacy and the frustration of trying to tell us what is going on, on the front lines.

At the same time I take some of the remarks as insults and that hurts, especially when I think of myself as a person who is on the 'right side of the issue'. So when I hear something about my 'white tears' I naturally become defensive and a bit angry. I don't think there is an easy answer to this, this is embedded in our society and goes back hundreds of years here in the US. Maybe most of us white people want to fix it and move on but the issues of slavery and what is still going on today are too deep and painful to be fixed that quickly.

I also hope the black community understands when we try and speak our own truth we are fearful of not 'getting it' and shut down. That's how the Bernie Sanders demonstration effected many of us. Not talking and trying to understand one another is our biggest enemy. We are two groups (or more) of people trying to communicate with one another and we are coming from very different places. For some the repressive nature of the state is immediate and for others it's a concept that we know is true but really don't feel, yet.

[zappaman]

123. According to some, she was "race nagging".

That's what happens when an AA voices their concerns.

And yes, she was most certainly alert stalked as are many AAs.
In fact, they even get followed into the AA forum and alerted on EVERY DAY.
And EVERY DAY, another DUer "accidentally" goes to the AA forum to "accidentally" continue to harass.
It's plain as day some are trying to run off our more outspoken AAs.

[JTFrog]

127. ^^this^^ n/t

[William769]

129. Not some, one.

And that post stood. That was really disgusting and just goes to show a major flaw in the jury system.

Hope you are doing well zappaman.

[Starry Messenger]

154. +1000

[etherealtruth]

167. AMEN!!!

[bettyellen]

174. unfuckingbelievable that ugly stuff like that flies here. disappointing. bullshit hides.

[Spazito]

181. Yep, it is plain as day for sure...

Some claim it was an accident yet when told they are posting in the AA group, instead of backing out they double down and then go to GD or GDP claiming to be 'victims'. Pathetic to say the least.

[SunSeeker]

195. The alert stalking in the AA group is reprehensible.

Great AA DUers are off posting their discussions at other sites because they can't do it here. It's shameful.

[Bobbie Jo]

224. Nailed it.

As someone else noted, not some, ONE.

This person even had the guts to show up in this thread.

I miss bravenak terribly, shame on the hateful clique who did this to her and continue to harass the handful of AfAm posters we have left here.

You know who you are.

What goes around comes around...

[Boudica the Lyoness]

239. Are all or most of the people in the AA forum black folk? n/t

[Number23]

261. I want to wrap this post in a blanket, put it on my knee and give it a cookie

Thank you, zappaman. Seriously.

[William769]

126. DU will be worse off without Bravenak

And until the Admins recognize that the jury system is definitely flawed because the majority can silence the minority, DU itself is worse off. I'm reminded of this, a jury of your peers, well that's what we have in our criminal justice system today and man hasn't that worked out so well.

For the record this is being posted by a white male who is retired law enforcement.

To the ones wishing Bravenak well, peace be with you. All others...

[Romulox]

134. I think the entire jury system is massively flawed--it's *designed* to punish minority opinion. nt

[BillZBubb]

170. Do you have a better plan?

It may be flawed, but it's about the best system we have available.

I also disagree that it is designed to punish minority opinion. It is not opinion that is usually flagged--it is how that opinion is expressed. The problem is more in definition, what is rude or over-the-top to one person may be just fine to another.

I'd rather have 7 DUers chosen at random decide a post's fate than a single moderator. There is a lot lower chance of bias with a jury.

[Romulox]

175. DU2 was much better than this. In all respects.

I also disagree that it is designed to punish minority opinion. It is not opinion that is usually flagged--it is how that opinion is expressed. The problem is more in definition, what is rude or over-the-top to one person may be just fine to another.

It's definitional, not a matter of opinion. Those with minority P.O.V.s will always be disproportionately juried.

[Gormy Cuss]

231. The old moderation system was better.

At least there were named groups of DUers who were held accountable for their rulings.

[BillZBubb]

234. I disagree. I had very bad experience with that system.

[okasha]

137. DU was a better place for Beavenak.

Maybe it will be again.

[greatauntoftriplets]

144. bravenak speaks truths that some don't want to hear.

[Vinca]

150. I was not a fan. You have to be able to listen to more points of view than your own.

[Codeine]

199. Unless your point of view is a deliberately ignored

and distorted one, derided or deemed meaningless by a more dominant cultural paradigm. Then you have to be an advocate, a passionate defender, and maybe even a little unpleasant occasionally. That is Bravenak's role.

She's probably the only DUer who I can honestly say taught me something. She truly enlightened me with her arguments. I don't think anyone else ever managed that.

She's still wrong about Kanye, though.

[Vinca]

223. The key word in your post is "unpleasant."

That was my experience with the poster.

[nomorenomore08]

269. Unpleasant times call for unpleasant measures. That's how it is.

[Vinca]

271. Civility seems to be a lost art.

[nomorenomore08]

278. Civility is a good general principle, but it shouldn't (and can't) be an ironclad law.

Responding to raw hatred and cruelty - and even palpable danger - with polite euphemisms, is misguided at best, downright suicidal at worst.

The same poster under discussion says she once had a gun pulled on her during a routine traffic stop, for a broken tail-light of all things - and it was nothing she said or did, the guy came at her weapon drawn from the get-go. That's the kind of thing millions of black Americans have had to deal with, for no substantive reason save fear and hate for their color.

[Rex]

158. Dam 7 hides!?

4 in one day! Someone was really pushing her button imo. I like her posts and some do get passionate, which is nice to see since it tells me there is a real person on the other end of the monitor.

However, some in this thread crying about cyber stalking are the VERY SAME PEOPLE that have cyber stalked other users off this forum...so to them I say, maybe learn something from this and stop doing it to other people!?

[NCTraveler]

172. One of the best du has to offer. nt.

[Aerows]

177. She's a great DUer

I don't agree with her on many things, but she's an intelligent voice. DU is poorer for her absence.

[Hekate]

179. Her voice is missed. The alert-stalkers should be ashamed, but they don't know how. nt

[H2O Man]

180. I like Bravenak.

[myrna minx]

191. Bravenak is a DU treasure. She has taught me so much.

I'm saddened to hear she's on "vacation". We're a lesser community without her voice.

[SunSeeker]

198. K & R

[KamaAina]

204. NOOOOOOO!!!!!!

[Shandris]

209. I found her to be offputting, obnoxious, argumentative...

...and an exact representation of the methods I won't use. I also found her to be utterly necessary and an interesting read purely because I often disagreed with her on many things even working towards the same generic goals. And, to my knowledge, she can't stand me...and that's perfectly alright too (although if she reads this and I'm wrong, do accept my humble apology bravenak).

I hope she isn't gone for good.

[emulatorloo]

210. Bravenak is a great person and poster. Her posts were willfully misinterpreted

as 'racist' when they were actually aimed at helping others to understand why African American voters aren't flocking to Sanders. She supported Bernie and many of here posts were about helping Bernie's campaign to understand what it needed to do to get more AA's to consider Senator Sanders as a candidate.

However lots of people willfully misinterpreted her and willfully twisted her words into being 'racist'. Tons of words were put into her mouth by disingenuous people, IMHO. She was alert stormed and taken out.

There is a concerted effort these days to take out African American posters. Admins should take action, unless they want this to become Democratic Underground's legacy.

[lovemydog]

213. I love Bravenak.

She's smart, compassionate and has a great sense of humor. I've learned a lot from her posts on prison reform & other topics. DU is a better, more diverse place with her posting here. One need not agree with every opinion to acknowledge that we benefit from hearing different voices.

[Warpy]

217. I did send her a PM

and got a quick acknowledgment. So she's around, just not able to post.

It's going to be a long couple of months until she is.

[goldent]

222. Maybe DU needs a Back Alley group

Let's face it - a lot of people come to DU to fight with one another. Part of the game appears to be to see how far you can push the limits without getting hidden or banned.

It is clear that DU has been designed to encourage this kind of activity. Maybe the next version of DU could have the ability for a subset of people in a hot thread to take it to the "Back Alley," where there are practically no rules - personal insults, racist remarks, all are fair game. I'm sure the DU developers would add in other features to make it more interesting -- maybe it would be a death match where it doesn't end until someone is banned.

As much as people say they don't like this stuff, I suspect it would be highly popular.

I'm not seriously suggesting a "Back Alley" group, but I am serious that DU is designed to promote conflict. We need to keep this in mind in threads like this.

[Flying Squirrel]

226. I read her hidden posts

If anything, I think the juries were excessively kind to her. I mean, look at this post that only got a 4-3 hide:

114. For real? Seriously? You still think I have not read it, huh? Fuck.
Last edited Tue Jul 21, 2015, 08:11 PM -
Edit history (1)

No more. I cannot take nymore. I'll burn the internet soon if you all don't stop. You'll think I'm mad King Aerys in a minute if you don't stop. I READ HIS DAMN RECORD!! I'LL BURN YOU ALL AND TAKE WHATS MINE IN FIRE AND BLOOD!!!

Come on.

[Turin_C3PO]

227. I think she was kinda joking on that one.

I agree she was over the top many times and probably deserves a time-out but that post strikes me as a failed attempt at humor.

[Flying Squirrel]

228. Ok...

Hey, at least she only got a time out for a failed attempt at humor as opposed to a PPR for NYC_SKP's failed attempt.

[Turin_C3PO]

229. I strongly disagree with the banning of NYC_SKP.

He/she was a great poster and got the tombstone for one ill-worded post. Complete BS, didn't make any sense to me at all.

[Gormy Cuss]

232. Game of Thrones.

Apparently 3 DUers understood the reference. Why the four others voted to hide could range from not getting it to disliking bravenak.

[lunamagica]

230. I think DU needs bravenak, and I hope to see her back soon. eom

[Blue_Tires]

235. kick...

[romanic]

238. She was just too over the top

argumentative, and had a tendency to go off the rails and write out these manifestos about everyone. I ran into her a few times and I was even cordial after a misunderstanding; but then she got personal, accused me of lying about my race among other attacks, etc. Quite frankly she deserves to be on time out and I'm not going to pretend she represents every single POC on this board, because she doesn't. End of.

[kwassa]

257. I think you are too over the top.

It is all a matter of perspective.

[Number23]

263. And that one just came back from a timeout of his own.

And, unlike bravenak, he's been on DU all of five minutes.

[m-lekktor]

245. I will miss her on here!

big huge hugs to her!

This may make me wierdo but I enjoy the input of people I might disagree with at times! I am not necessarily talking about Bravenak in regards to this but in general. I don't participate in the jury system and I have zero interest in alerting on anybody (maybe a one post obvious troll) or putting anybody on ignore. If the people I disagree with stopped posting, DU would bore me.

[WillyT]

248. Hey Bravenak... You're Ok With Me... Passion And Truth-Telling...

Can't Get Much Better Than That!



See you soon, K ???

[ismnotwasm]

249. K&R

[kwassa]

253. BRAVENAK IS THE BEST!!!

No more yelling, but she is an extremely talented writer who has a way of breaking down the issues to their essential core. If you can't understand it after Bravenak explains it, then you will not understand it from anyone.

I truly admire her, and love her for her intensity.

[yuiyoshida]

256. Agree... does

Anyone know when she will be back? I miss her.

[steve2470]

265. +1 nt

[Marrah_G]

266. don't always agree with Bravenak, but I am glad we are on the same side

She is a wonderful, intelligent outspoken member of this community who has a real passion for the issues.

[nomorenomore08]

270. What an odious fucking bunch of alert-stalking crybabies...

People's teenage sons are being gunned down like wild animals by bigoted lunkheads, cheered on by other bigoted lunkheads who'd like to give them all medals, and people are worried about impolite language and "Game of Thrones" references???

WAAAHHH THAT BLACK LADY HURT MY FEELINGS! MAKE HER GO AWAY WAAAHHH!

[Bluenorthwest]

273. I love Bravenak. I relate. She is a person who strives to be an honest broker while also containing

great passion and strong personal views. She is a person who will really try on your shoes, walk a mile in them and come to share that experience.
I wish that she'd been a member in the 2008 primary cycle. She would have been terrific medicine for what was happening then and we'd be a better community for it now. That's what I think.

[Cosmic Kitten]

275. Spacedog to the rescue

With the continual addition of new
members the torch is passed forward

[Kurska]

277. The same person shouldn't be able to alert on another poster more than once a week.

Alert stalking is a serious problem.