Ten

[H2O Man]

“Wars teach us not to love our enemies, but to hate our allies.”
-- W. L. George


One of the darnedest things that happens in times of social unrest -- such as that which the people of the United States are experiencing now -- fits what W. L. George said about wars. We witness this every time we watch the news, or read a newspaper, and see people reacting to important events. And we see how damaging that process is, by simply reading too many of the divisive OP/threads on DU:GD.

The concept of debating an important issue is, in and of itself, neutral. A debate has the potential to become positive or negative; meaningful or meaningless; constructive or destructive. Let’s consider, for example, the concept of a Democratic Party’s presidential primary contest -- although this OP is not about the 2016 primary. And let’s say that there are ten issues of great importance to the party as a whole. These issues include both domestic and international tensions, of course, because these always overlap.

No one candidate is going to have the absolute “best” positions on each of the ten issues. Indeed, no individual who serves as President of the United States will, either. It’s not going to happen. Yet, there are plenty of good and sincere people who actually believe that a president -- an individual man or woman -- has the ability to institute enough positive changes to “save” America. That is no more rooted in reality, than believing the world will end in 1928, and God will come down from the sky to “save” us.

What the process is intended to do is to identify the most qualified and capable individual, who not only has the best stance on the majority of those ten important issues, but also create a coalition of allies to coordinate efforts to deal with all ten issues. To the extent that a man or woman can do that, is the measure of the good potential achieved.

The negative potential, obviously, is found when people limit their focus to one or two of the ten issues that confront us. It is part of human nature to see that which involves your self, family, and friends as the most important -- and it is, to you, your family, and friends. And that makes it important. It’s also important to understand that other people, confronted by different circumstances, is going to be focused on that which concerns him-/herself, family, and friends.

More, it is both possible and important to recognize that while each of us will be “experts” in the issues that confront and concern us the most, there will be other equally important issues that we are less familiar with. That doesn’t mean we are totally ignorant: we are likely to know more about the issue than the average person, from being exposed by way of the media or some form of education. But we haven’t been exposed in the sense of our life-experience. (Perhaps we can illustrate this by considering the issue of sex with another person. One might read about sex, even study it in a “sex-ed” class in high school; or watch it on television. Despite having a passionate interest in having sex with another person, one cannot fully understand the experience, until one has engaged in it.)

Now, I do not know what it is like to have a police officer assault and/or kill me, because I am black. I do know what it is like to be beaten while handcuffed. I have had a cousin and his son shot by a law enforcement officer. I’ve had a nephew attacked, and left for dead, by a group of racist thugs, who hated my nephew because he is black. But I simple cannot have the experience of being assaulted/ murdered for being black.

Likewise, because I am not gay, I’ve never had the experience of being threatened, assaulted, and/or murdered, because I am gay. Now, I have had people call me gay, as an intended insult, simply because I have long hair. It would be easier, and hence more likely, that a hateful person could mistake me for being gay, than being black. And while being called names doesn’t bother me as an individual -- I do not think of being black or gay as a “bad” thing -- the aggressive behavior of hateful thugs towards blacks, gays, and other human being is disturbing to me. For around the same time my family dealt with the assault upon my nephew, the vicious murder of Matthew Shepard was in the news. And the murder of James Byrd, Jr.

These individual cases show how closely related those ten important issues are. And not simply in the context of a given campaign. No, these issues demand our best efforts. And that means on an on-going basis, at every level.

In reality, just as no US President is going to “save” us -- for even if he or she wanted to, they could not -- no individual on this forum, nor any group in the nation, is an “expert” on each of those ten issues. Thus, a serious effort requires a united front, a coalition, that includes groups and intervals with expertise in each of the ten areas. And that means that wee have “allies” -- a word that has caused some degree of tensions between various groups and individuals, even here in this diverse community of DU.

The concept of allies has, of course, both positive and negative potentials. Some are basic, and constant. Indeed, it could not be otherwise, for we are talking about human beings. And, in the final analysis, we are all sad and weakly human, thus prone to making errors. For none of us knows everything. Add to this the fact that social-political circumstances frequently change -- though the underlying dynamics may remain much the same -- which requires that we be flexible in order to deal with fluid events.

If people always view their issue as “most important,” a movement stagnates. If they do not understand the significance of “striking while the iron is hot,” a movement fails. The obvious example of this involves the issues with “Black Lives Matter.” That’s a powerful statement f purpose, and absolutely provides a current crisis in society where a united front could make great gains. And while a whole lot of folks get it, we still see how that potential can be wasted -- be it by people who cannot get beyond the, “Yeah, but don’t ALL lives matter?”, to others who are unwilling to accept the imperfections -- real or otherwise -- that they see in potential allies.

Again, all of these problems come down to our being human. And part of being human is the ability to easily see the flaws in others, but lacking the capacity for deep insight into our own short-comings. The belief that, if only this individual, or that group, would do exactly what we want them to do, that things would be better ….when, in reality, the only thing we have control over is our own actions.

We need to be patient with one another, while being impatient with the circumstances that deny social justice to ourselves and fellow citizens. We need to be forgiving in regard to the imperfections of ourselves and our allies, and firm in our demands for progress. That can be hard at times, but not doing so will always be harder.

Peace,
H2O Man

[tk2kewl]

1. insightful as always

Thank you H2O Man

[H2O Man]

3. Thank you.

Much appreciated.

[stillwaiting]

2. This is such an important OP. Thank you for this. nt

[H2O Man]

4. And thank you!

I think it is a very important topic. I'm hoping that others will read it, and contribute their thoughts, as well.

[haikugal]

5. Thanks for this OP H2O Man...

It was all very good, as usual. I found your closing paragraph particularly pertinent.

We need to be patient with one another, while being impatient with the circumstances that deny social justice to ourselves and fellow citizens. We need to be forgiving in regard to the imperfections of ourselves and our allies, and firm in our demands for progress. That can be hard at times, but not doing so will always be harder.

We need to unite and stand together in order to make the changes possible.

[H2O Man]

12. Thank you.

It's been a busy time here, with the local election coming up. Though it's small -- a county election in rural, upstate NY -- it is a very important one. One of the things that has stood out to me is the degree by which the group that I work with has changed, over but a few short years. Some people burn out, others take their place. Group dynamics always interest me, from the small, local level, to national political life. And I think the OP is equally true for both of those, and everything in between.

[Live and Learn]

6. A big Kick & highly Recommended. nt

[H2O Man]

13. Thank you!

[retrowire]

7. very well said. nt

[H2O Man]

14. Thanks!

[jtuck004]

8. If people always view their issue as “most important,” a movement stagnates.

The obvious example of this involves the issues with “Black Lives Matter.”

I like most of it, but it strikes me that you just made a point and then proved it with that example - they can't seem to understand how their solution will come from the larger whole.

An injury to one is an injury to all. That has never changed.

[H2O Man]

16. It seemed like

there has been a bit of tension on DU between some supporters of BLM and of Bernie Sanders. In my opinion, neither group would do well to drop anchor there, and focus too much on that intersection of interests. Both movements are not only extremely important -- in fact, vital -- but both can benefit by reinforcing each other.

Are either "perfect" allies? No, each is composed of passionate, but imperfect people. But both groups have important goals.

[Zorra]

9. KO in the First Round.

One of your best ever, thank you!

[H2O Man]

17. Thanks, Zorra!

[ananda]

10. Good and interesting thoughts. Thanks, H20 Man.

Also, on the issue of organizing and allies, I would like to say something.

Allies are just people like everyone else, me, you, anybody ... with goods
and bads, foibles and flaws, and the wish to make a better world for
themselves and others ... on the principle of social and economic
fairness.

This does not mean that any ally will ever be anyone's perfect person or
savior .. and that includes you, me, Bernie Sanders, anyone.

We just need to stick together no matter what and try to make a difference.
That's really all there is to it. If we use stupid words or phrases, make
really idiotic mistakes that rankle people to the soles of their feet, OK ...
that's not good, but it really shouldn't be fatal.

The words "I'm sorry, I will try to do better, and I'm willing to be reminded
if I don't," go a long way towards keeping us together.

[H2O Man]

18. Very well said!

Thank you for that. I appreciate your adding to the conversation. And I definitely agree with you.

[tk2kewl]

20. it's really amazing how well "i'm sorry" works when you mean it

and actually say it.

I'm a bit embarrassed to say I think it took until I was almost 40 to understand that

[H2O Man]

21. Right!

Very important point. Thank you.

In my opinion, it has become especially difficult in our culture, because people frequently mistake, "I'm sorry" for "I am wrong." And while we should definitely apologize if we do someone wrong, there are many other times when simply saying, "I'm sorry" is appropriate.

Quite a few things in life do not come down to right versus wrong. Sometimes, things are just the way that they are. A person can say,"I'm sorry" and mean it, in the sense of being sorry that they have hurt the other in some manner, sorry that things are just the way that they are.

Our culture has restricted the range of human feelings and emotions in an unhealthy way.

[tk2kewl]

22. i don't know if it true for all children, but...

i know for me it was difficult to say I was sorry and I often see the same thing from my son (as well as other children). I really try my best not to shame him but speaking from my own experience as child I think shame was probably the reason it was difficult for me (Catholic guilt and too much Irish in my dad). Why do you think it is so difficult for children to apologize, or do you not see that as so common?

[ananda]

24. It can be difficult but ...

... if they see you do it, they will learn from that.

I once read that children learn more from what their parents do than from what they say.

[H2O Man]

28. Good question.

Fascinating topic -- children. I’m certain not an expert on children, but I definitely like discussing child development, including in their families, and also in the context of the school and community. The one thing that I do know for sure is that even the very best kids will, at times, confuse and even frustrate their parents. I think that’s their job!

What was really impressive about your question was that by mentioning your father, yourself, and your son, it brings up heredity; by mentioning the Catholic Church, environment. And how each of the two impacts a child’s development is a fascinating area of study.

That includes everything from the development of their brains -- which takes much longer, in a most-important part, to mature …..to who they view as role models as they age. Certainly, the way that children and youth communicate today has both similarities and stark differences than when I was a kid. And so I think that it is interesting to ask if more kids are having discomfort when it comes to saying, “I’m sorry.”

I remember a while back, when one of my daughters was rude to one of my friends. My daughter would soon text an apology. Maybe that was just an easier option for her at that time.But maybe its more common among people that age. I wonder if there are differences between groups of teens who live in an urban area, and a rural area?

And I think that DNA is powerful enough that some kids -- but not all -- will have temperaments almost exactly like one parent. So it wouldn’t surprise me that your son reminds you of yourself, or that he acts -- and thinks -- a lot like you.

The father-son dynamics that males experience are always interesting. Erich Fromm wrote that frequently, fathers are prone to liking the good qualities in his son that remind him of himself, and dislike the bad qualities that remind him of himself. I tried hard to keep that in mind when my boys were growing up. It was the hardest when I was tired and grumpy, and noticed that I was repeating things my late father used to say to me! Genetics? Environment? I think they are the same thing.

I think most children and youth do pretty well. It’s a more complex world today -- glad I’m old -- and in some ways harder than it once was. But I think as long as they are relatively good, passing in school, etc, and have people to talk to, they’ll be fine. It is tougher when they experience ego-dystonic thinking, etc, rather than ego-syntonic stuff. If their thinking, feelings, and impulses create problems for them, rather than experiencing some degree of mental harmony, it gets rough. But puberty tends to inflict that on most people, male and female. And that’s where, as individuals, different kids might have very different reasons for not doing things such as saying they are sorry, too.

(I don’t know if this makes any sense. I have competing ideas bouncing around in my head, since reading your post!)

[tk2kewl]

31. I am going to tread lightly here...

Last edited Fri Aug 14, 2015, 11:49 AM - Edit history (1)

The "white supremacist" charge and response each angered a lot of people. Often anger gets expressed as demands for apologies (did anyone do this? I don't know). I myself saw it as an unfair label for Bernie, but it didn't make me angry - it left me puzzled.

It was interesting to see a supposed apology from BlackLivesMatter surface and some people see that as vindicating their anger. It was also interesting to see the apology denied.

I mentioned my father earlier so in for a penny...

My grandfather came to the U.S. on his own as a teenager, with nothing. My father, who was one of five kids, is very liberal in his politics. After retiring he went to law school and put together a second 20 year career as a defense attorney. He likes to be right but not nearly as much as he hates to be wrong. That makes him a good lawyer - but combining that with a stubbornness for emotional self examination and an innate ability to identify flaws that surround him (also good lawyer stuff), he rarely sees himself as wrong, rarely apologizes and when he does know he's wrong he will just back off and wait for things to blow over then act like nothing happened.

I think the label "white supremacist," that is causing all the anger and angst gives us an opportunity to look deeper into what drives the emotion behind reactions from both sides. I have known some white supremacists - I'm pretty sure none of them are on DU. I have seen posts recently talking about the "white supremacist" label, but mostly about why Bernie or his supporters are not that. There was a time, however, when even the most enlightened minds white people had to offer were white supramacists. It's a very loaded topic that has shaken people up.

Regarding your ten issues and the coalition: I am a software developer. My employers are committed to open data. We have been using more and more open source products over the last 10 years and made some small technical contributions back to some of them. We are now beginning the process of open sourcing our own code.

I mention this because I think a coalition is much like an open source software project in a lot of ways. Building coalitions is of course much messier than building software. But like in coalition building, contributors propose changes, enhancements, new features and deprecation of features. It's usually orderly and follows rules that can be written in code and are easily enforceable. For better or for worse, right now at least, the rules of coalition building cannot be programmed into a computer.

If use a rope as a metaphor for an open source project, all of the various contributions by individuals become fibers or strands in the rope, strengthening it.

The open source software project is, for the most part, an emotionless coalition. Sometimes there might be heated disagreements about direction but it's not the same as what happens in politics. One of the great things about software development if its done right is that at any point in time if you need to know why something about the code that is causing a bug is the way it is, you can compare it to snapshots of its form at any point in history.

White supremacy was once the main feature of the open source project called humanity. It has always been a fatal bug in the program that gobbles up resources that could be much better utilized. We just keep rebooting, like with your Windows OS, until it builds up again. If only we could be able to trace back through our own personal and cultural histories as rapidly and precisely as we can our software projects to determine how we should best react. I think it is in this context, not the narrow context of Ms. Johnson, protest that needs to be considered when one considers who ought to feel sorry for what.

[H2O Man]

35. Great post!

Thank you!

That tensions regarding BLM, Sanders, and black-and-white relations over-all, make it where our opposition doesn't need to manipulate right now, to cause divisions of anger and mistrust. Good lord, we are able to create them ourselves! I guess the most important question would be if we can avoid them?

Over the years, I've spoken about my close friendship with Rubin Carter. Now, this started with a black man sentenced to triple-life, after being convicted of a brutal racial hate crime against white people, becoming "pen pals" with a white teenager. We were very close for over 40 years. During that time, we were both aware that: (a) Rubin was black; and (b) I was white. And that for a variety of reasons, his being black and my being white influenced a lot of events in our individual lives. And thus, was something that we were aware of, but that did not serve as a stumbling block to our communication, or friendship.

Yet this friendship would never decrease our awareness of, or activities due to, racial tensions. Let me give you an example. Around 2003, a group of young people -- around the ages of my sons, nieces, and nephews -- approached me to request help on a case. They said that their friend, and 18 year old with brown skin, had gotten a life sentence for getting a "blow job" from an under-aged girl. I admit that I questioned if their reporting was 100% accurate.

Within a short time, when I looked into the case, I found they were accurate. Indeed, there was a two-week (literally 14 days) time period that made what might have been a perfectly legal encounter, to a felony. Although the young man -- English was not his first language -- did not understand the court process in a manner that would allow him toparticipate in a manner that protected his interests -- had no prior record, other than being at a party at age 17, where he engaged in under-aged drinking, he got a life sentence.

During the same county court season, repeated sex offenders got 3-month sentences. But they were white.

This young fellow was in Attica State Prison, while I attempted to help him. I referred the case to Rubin;'s attorney -- who was Jewish -- and long story short, it took 18 months to get him out. A little longer to correct his record. (He has not had a single legal issue since, not even so much as a parking ticket.)

That's not, of course, the last time that I was involved in a case (or set of cases) that involved racism aimed at black people.Rather, I mention it as an example of black, brown and white people -- of different religious traditions -- working together for social justice. There are so many benefits to be accrued from united efforts, that we shouldn't given in to emotions like anger, or feelings that are "hurt," and allow divisions to grow, and mistrust to fester.

If as individuals we become strands on the rope you mention, we access real power. Unlike a chain, where if one link breaks, the chain is broken as well, a rope provides greater strength: if one strand is faulty or weak, and breaks, the rope continues to serve its purpose.

[ananda]

23. Also well said!

I think that the ability to apologize or just say I'm sorry in any sense is a sign
of strength and humanity.

Thank you for this thread!

[H2O Man]

29. Well, thank you!

I think it is a very interesting thread, and I appreciate your contributions.

[Bluenorthwest]

11. You will find that people remember who has stood with them and who has refused to do so.

Eloquent people who remain silent at important times, they are always noted for their silence.

Silence = Death

[annabanana]

15. kickers . .

Thoughtful and illuminating, as usual.

[H2O Man]

19. Thanks!

[malaise]

25. Excellent post Waterman

Rec

[H2O Man]

26. Thank you!

[panader0]

27. Ten equals one to me.

All the issues boil down to the same thing- respect for others. All things become one, it is the human form that makes us see
things as separate. The Indians seemed to get this- the spirit of the sky, the animals, the trees, the stone. In reality, we are all one.
Like the (Ten) Commandments (I am not religious), I believe they all boil down to one: thou shalt not steal.
If you lie, you steal the truth, if you kill, you steal the life, etcetera.
Don't take what isn't yours, and even then take no more than you need.
Thanks once again.

[H2O Man]

30. "If six turned out

to be nine, I don't mind." -- Jimi Hendrix

The other day, on Face Book, a friend had posted a link to an article about an ancient philosopher. A lady, who I don't know, responded, "This sounds so much like Christianity." And here I was thinking it sounded just like the Original Instructions!

There was an actual time in human development when all the Tribes of Humanity had a version delivered to them. Not from a Santa God or Stained Glass Jesus, but by human beings, connected to the whole of the Creation. In Genesis, it is referred to as mankind speaking one language, although this is not a literal reference. It merely means that people put Good first. So depending upon the environment, one group might view "God" in one way, and in another environment, another way. But so long as they put Good first, they inhabited common ground.

You note one of the most important truths about the 10 Commandments (re: Original Instructions) : each has a literal meaning -- don't lie, steal, kill, etc -- yet each has layers of higher meaning. "Don't steal" also means, for example, do not attribute power to one's self, that one does not have. In a group sense, we see humans doing this today. A prime example, by no coincidence, has to do with the living environment ....and people thinking they control nature, rather than recognizing that we are part of nature. The fall from grace, right there.

That inability to recognize that all organic life on Earth -- of which mankind is surely included -- exists for the purpose of the earth. So those like Cheney et al, who illustrate the desire to exploit earth, are guilty of crimes against nature, and spiritual theft.

[mmonk]

32. It's hard to build a coalition without give or take or falling victim to a more self centered

or myopic approach. Politically savvy opponents that hold to a status will always work it to their advantage. The whole for change is more effective than parts for change against powerful interests. It requires a self reflection that is hard to come by but worth it in the long run.

[H2O Man]

33. Valid point.

This is a key point, and I am glad that you brought it up. It is part of human nature, to think of your own issue as being of top importance. I know that while I can appreciate that the issues other people place first are as important as my own, I am able to view them as equal, but I don't place mine in a secondary position. Still, because of the importance of timing, I can place focus on engaging in an effort "now," even if it isn't my sole focus. (Or soul focus, necessarily.)

For example, the current "Black Lives Matter" deserves our immediate attention. The idea of striking while the iron is hot. More, that it is at crisis stage today.

It's interesting, the more I've thought about your post here .....the only group that I have a lot of experience working with, that has as a group put other issues on the front burner on a consistent and fully reliable way, has been the gay and lesbian folks that I work with. That includes on issues from toxic waste; racially-motivated violence; religiously-motivated hatred in action; Native American burial protection and repatriation; and local/regional elections. That's not to say that all gay and lesbian people are altruistic and noble. Like every other population, there is a wide span of personalities and behaviors. But in the context of coalition politics, those I work with have been representative of the best in Democratic Party and Democratic Left activism.

Per a coalition .....of course, my choice of words would favor "confederacy," in the manner that old Ben Franklin used it in reference to the model of the Iroquois, but the south gave it a negative connotation .....there has to be a few people who make the coalition their #1 issue, and provide a sort of "federal" role. And that is neither as easy, nor as hard, as it sounds. That provides balance, and as we know from the great sport of boxing, balance is the key to winning competition and conflicts.

[mmonk]

34. Great analogies all around.

I like the Moral Monday movement due that it is a coalition with the aim to remove all injustice. The coalition protests on behalf of each part of the coalition by having actions on behalf of each party to publicly address those concerns. That builds the solidarity even deeper because each knows the other has their back without ever having to wonder or have an suspicions.

[H2O Man]

37. Trinity

There have been three powerful movements in recent times. The first was that which carried Senator Obama to victory in 2008; the second was Occupy; and the third is Moral Monday.I really want to travel down there to see you, and to participate in a Moral Monday event. (I'd love the opportunity to speak at the event, too. I can dream, can't I?)

Of the three, I view Moral Monday as providing the model that the rest of the nation should replicate. It allows for each of the other two, as needed ....and all three are desperately needed!

[spanone]

36. K&R...

Thanks again.

[H2O Man]

38. Thank you!

Much appreciated!