The New Mass Extinction: There’s A Pipeline Ready To Burst Under The Great Lakes

[KamaAina]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/08/17/tnme-line-five/

Beneath the Great Lakes, there is a ticking time bomb that threatens one-fifth of the world’s fresh surface water. That time bomb comes in the form of a pipeline owned by the Canadian company Enbridge.

The pipeline known as “Line 5” is the subject of a new documentary produced by Motherboard/Vice. The documentary uncovers what led to the creation of what could turn out to be one of the world’s worst man-made environmental disasters....

Motherboard correspondent Spencer Chumbley went to Michigan to investigate the situation, and the research is alarming. If just one of the pipelines ruptured, it would result in a spill of 1.5 million gallons of oil—and that’s if Enbridge, the company that owns them, is able to fix the pipeline immediately. UMich research scientist Dave Schwab says, “I can’t imagine another place in the Great Lakes where it’d be more devastating to have an oil spill.”

Enbridge, the company that runs the pipelines, insists they are safe. But Enbridge does not have a particularly inspiring record, with more than 800 spills between 1999 and 2010, totalling 6.8 million gallons of spilled oil. In 2010, its pipeline 6B ruptured in the Kalamazoo River. The nation’s focus was pulled by Deepwater Horizon at the time, but the Kalamazoo River spill became the nation’s biggest inland oil spill.

[Faux pas]

1. Humans

are greedy, stupid and deserve what we get.

[RKP5637]

2. It's all going to cave in, eventually, everything. Frankly, humans are so F'en stupid. n/t

[ladjf]

5. We are too stupid to survive. nt

[CrispyQ]

6. Agreed.

I know lots of people think our big brain will get us out of this mess, but it was our big brain that got us in this mess. Every week we read that the reality of global warming is accelerating faster than any of the models predicted & yet not one major country is doing anything significant about it. Oh we have our global meetups & our little standards, but it is nothing compared to the change that is coming our way.

[DirkGently]

34. ++ THIS reflects something I've thought forever. n/t

[Thespian2]

84. Thanks

The cartoon is so very true...

Enbridge creates disasters every where they go...Got Enbridge, Got Oil Spills...

[ctsnowman]

128. Nailed it.

[totodeinhere]

97. But once we kill ourselves off the planet will eventually heal itself.

And once that happens hopefully whatever emerges as the next dominant species will be kinder to the planet than we are.

[BeanMusical]

142. These folks would be perfect:

[ReallyIAmAnOptimist]

102. Too greedy...

...all it takes is the one percent to ruin everything.

[ladjf]

115. Good point. What we haven't

figured out as yet, is how to topple the control of the oligarchy.

The human race is very clever with short term innovation but ignores obvious long range problems stemming from out behavior.

Greed and conceit seem to be at the root of our destructiveness.

Greed is a natural animal survival instinct. We need to understand that our survival would be more likely if we could get control of our basic greed. Conceit emerges from the a world view that is highly self-centered. This type of thinking is inherited from parents and peers, particularly through religious training that teachings "theo-centric views", translated to "self-centric views".

A familiarity with the major principles of known Cosmology is helpful in realizing that the individual is most definitely the center of existence. Further, that understanding is conducive to objective cognitive processes.

[Faux pas]

22. I don't understand why

we don't get that Mother Nature can only take so much abuse before she takes us all down. Crazy.

[ladjf]

116. Objective thinking immediately reveals probable outcomes.

Subjective thinking will cause the real probable outcomes to be shrouded in the fog of faulty cognitive processes.

For example, 99% of the World's climatologist tell us that climate change is being caused by certain human behavior. More than 50% of all people ignore the trained scientists view and choose to follow other invalid explanations about weather change.

[Faux pas]

134. This goes hand in hand

with the 'dumbing down' of Amurka, right?

[ladjf]

135. Definitely. But, the change from subjective thinking to

objective thinking isn't all that difficult particularly if children are raised by parents who are objective thinkers.

Objective thinking is not necessarily about IQ level. It's just a matter of how one arrives at their conclusions.

Subjective thinkers don't bother using realistic data to determine values. They prefer to simply fabricate the answers or
acquire them from other people.

[Faux pas]

136. Sounds like

a form of mental illness to me. But, what do I know?

[ladjf]

137. I wouldn't say that an overuse of subjective deduction rises

to the level of mental illness. It all depends on the degrees or balance between logical, objective thinking and subjective thinking.

There are situations where no valid evidence is available. In that case, one would be forced to make use subjective. Intuition is
often valid. We don't have time to go into that case.

[Faux pas]

144. Thanks for responding...

but your getting too deep for me. I base my 'mental illness' deduction on observation of my own family. Four out of the five of us haven't lived in reality my whole life. Lol, I'm the 'sane' one.

[artislife]

111. My grandfater lived on the Redcliff Reservation on the Great Lakes.

They think the Ojibwas were on that land for 10,000 years. We have three names for our tribe, The Chippawas, the Ojibwas and the
Anishinabe
http://www.chi-manidoo.com/gichigami.html (WARNINING:music plays on the start)

The Great Lakes are situated in the center of North America, consisting of five huge fresh water lakes, joined in two distinct clusters. The Anishinabe called them Gitchigami roughly translated as "Shining Big Sea Water." These great waters include:
Lake Superior
Lake Michigan
Lake Huron
Lake Ontario
Lake Erie
Together, these vast five lakes form the largest freshwater system on the planet. About three billion years ago, volcanic activity seered and molded the foundation for these sacred lakes. At the end of the Ice Age, retreating glaciers further carved out the lake bottoms and deposited huge quantities of water and sediment to form the massive waters. People began to inhabit the rich ecosystem that was formed, approximately 10,000 years ago.

And look what we have done in 50.

[RKP5637]

132. Imagine what it will be like in another 50 years given the present course. It's frightening,

so needless and so destructive. It's all about $$$$$'s, lives of people are in their way. Disgusting!

[mountain grammy]

31. Yep, we're the best argument there is against the theory of "intelligent design."

[Faux pas]

35. I know huh?

lol

[PatrickforO]

86. Yeah we are - a loathsome species.

WE are the only species on Earth of which it can be said if we went extinct the rest of life on the planet would actually be better off.

[mountain grammy]

93. Sad but true, and little time left to change.

But humans will suffer for their sins.

[Amimnoch]

119. Calvin said it best.

[mountain grammy]

127. Great!

[NightWatcher]

3. Only after the last river has been poisoned....

[G_j]

4. Turn it OFF!!

NOW!

[jwirr]

8. That is what I thought.

[glinda]

46. Can they turn it off? Safely???? Need petition asap.

[jwirr]

76. I don't know for sure but most gas lines have a shut-off valve. But I

agree the petition should be from every one of the Great Lakes areas. The lakes are all interconnected. What hurts one hurts them all.

[jwirr]

81. Read Wikipedia for Enbridge Line 5. This pipeline was built in 1953 and

starts in Superior, WI.

I do not know how to get a petition started but there must be an organization that deals with environmental safety for the Great Lakes. This thing should be shut down before it is too late.

[glinda]

92. Here. If you come up with a statement and message it to me to help look it over.....WE CAN DO IT

Or at least draw attention to it!!!!!!!! I also have a environmental Twitter site and many Groups follow it for info. It will catch on.
https://www.change.org/start-a-petition?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GST_USER_GEOT2_SCHT1_start_online_petition&creative=48114313663&keyword=%2Bstart%20%2Bonline%20%2Bpetition&matchtype=b&network=g&device=c

[Scuba]

62. Eggzaklee!

[emsimon33]

107. My first reaction was also to turn it off

And pump a cleaner through the pipe to clean out the oil residue.

[snagglepuss]

7. k & r

[Octafish]

9. Enbridge is spectacularly awful. So is the proposed nuke dump next to Lake Huron.

http://www.stopthegreatlakesnucleardump.com/

People love the Great Lakes. It's like printing money.

[KamaAina]

10. I knew the name Enbridge sounded familiar!

[Octafish]

23. I can't blame Enbridge for the nuke dump.

That one's on OPG: Ontario Power Generation, a commercial firm wholly owned by the government of Ontario.

Nothing personal, but Enbridge, I have a problem with them transporting oil under, over, or next to the Great Lakes.

[navarth]

91. It might be useful to remember our Republican governors

that invite Canada to make us their garbage dump at his juncture.

[Stargazer99]

113. and still the idiots vote Republican...

[navarth]

122. Who's going to tell them different?

Sad to say the Michigan Democratic Party has been lacking in talent for some time. And the media....well, the good Octafish calls them Coprorate McPravda for a reason.

You can drive all over the state (or so I suspect) and the am radio will be rife with Limbaugh, Weiner-Savage, Hannity and the ilk.

It's weird. The Great Lakes State usually votes Blue in the Presidential elections, but local is bad. As many say here, the battle is really local now.

[MineralMan]

11. To put this in perspective, every oil tanker unit train carries over 1 Million

gallons of oil. Several of those trains a day travel along the Mississippi river. They're also a disaster waiting to happen.

The oil will move, one way or another.

[jtuck004]

12. I doubt very seriously Millenials are capable, but if they really wanted a better life, it strikes

me that they could stop that oil from moving, using whatever methods it takes.

Because that's the only way tens of millions of them are going to live to see their old age - and prevent their kids from dying screaming in their arms. Because we just aren't that far away from not being able to live like we used to.

The entitled generation needs to do that to survive. The ones they gave medals to for just showing up.

We are dead.

[matt819]

20. That's a load of garbage

It's not the millennials we have to worry about. Trump is 69. The rest of the clown car passengers are in their 40s and up.

The millennials I know, and that includes my kids, are no bs and no nonsense problem solvers. Right now it's the boomers and the ones after us who continue to be the problems.

What the millennials need to do is vote. And, surprise surprise, many have no faith that their votes will make one bit of difference. And who can blame them.

[jtuck004]

26. We are all the problem. The boomers are too fat and lazy and corrupt to fix it. But the

entitled generation just sits around making excuses about how it is someone else's fault.

At least we got out there and tried, lo those many years ago. Too many turncoats along the way, as it turned out.

But you are right - I doubt that voting will make a difference. The world is burning around their children's feet. Will they sit around and complain, whine that it is someone's else's fault -

even though THEY are the only ones who could take action, and who will certainly die miserable deaths, regardless of their excuse making, if no one does?

Will they take action to bring it to a place where change is possible, or just continue living on the plantation?

I have little hope, you appear to have more. Guess we will see. I doubt bravado is gonna keep the water at bay. lol.

[bvar22]

36. Boomer here. Moved to The Woods with Wife in 2006.

We never "gave up".
Still fighting, as are some of my old Hippie friends are (the ones who lived).
My wife & I work everyday to reduce our Carbon Footprint, use renewable energy for heat, compost, recycle,
keep some happy,healthy Honey Bees (far away from Industrial, Suburban, and Agribusiness poisons) along with Free Range Chickens.

One of our goals is to produce MORE wholesome food than we consume,
and greater involvement in local Humanitarian Issues (People & Animals).

There are many "Boomers" like myself and my friends who still fight the good fight....feel the Bern!

Something as small as this...

can be a Revolutionary Act.



bvar22 & Starkraven
living well on a LOW taxable income,
and stuff we learned in the 60s

[Roy Rolling]

37. Farm out

And truly out of state.

[jtuck004]

38. Of course. <G> But you stand out because you are the exception. And your world only

works as long as the rest of us leave you water, and don't make things so hot your crops won't grow fast enough to eat from.

So while you or I are doing our little growing thing, there are 10,000 people burning fuel so they can go buy slurpees at the store.

Those who still grow, or manufacture, might survive a little longer, having worked on our skills, but more likely is that when things begin to run out the others will overrun us and pick our bones clean, then die off.

I was just reading a story about a place where, within the next few decades, it will be too hot to work outside.

[bvar22]

43. Water was out first concern when we moved here.

There is an Ozark Mtn Spring on the property that has run for over 150 years.
The water most people buy in plastic jugs in the supermarket bubbles up out of the ground here.

Even 2 years ago, during record drought when we were using our Tanker Fire Trucks to water crops and cattle,
our Spring never missed a bubble,
We use this Spring for our household needs, including bathing, drinking water, as well as irrigating our crops.
Without this Spring....we would be in real trouble.
We would have to move.

[jtuck004]

50. We are on an underground well that taps into the big aquifer under here. It used to water

strawberry fields, apple orchards. It is lower than it has been, and last winter's snow, which is what usually recharges it, wasn't good. Things are changing.

It's funny - I have thought about moving, but to where if we are destroying the planet? Ground water is being contaminated or destroyed, so one could move nearer the coast for water, but if those levels are rising...

Oh yeah - and when each one of us have to move, so do those other 10,000. It could get unmanageable really quick.

I am thinking about getting out an old tarp and seeing how much water I can get from a sun distillery like we used to do years ago.

[bvar22]

61. Your profile didn't list what part of the country in which you live,

...but most of the aquifers, including the giant Ogallala Aquifer are dropping fast.
The farms and Industries are pulling out the water faster than nature can replenish it....and the recent drought doesn't help.

We thought about moving inland from the Gulf Coast (in Alabama!!!!!). We love fresh seafood,
and I was raised on the Gulf Coast, so I know the lay of the land,
but decided on the more scenic Ouachita Mountains of Arkansas...and the well known Springs that can be found here.

I am ashamed of the World and the Political System we are leaving to our children.

[jtuck004]

64. NE Corner of WA State. Spokane used to be a center for Strawberries, Peaches, Potatoes,

Apples - now mostly homes.

There is a picture of the huge ditch that used to run through here. You would run out and pull a board loose, it would flood the field. Now all that water is gone, but there are a few places where you can see remnants of the ditch.

We just don't see what we are doing to ourselves.

[matt819]

48. Sorry, I just don't get the millennial bashing

Who's entitled?

Millennials?

Again, all I have is my experience - my own kids and their friends. Even the wealthy ones (and not the ones in my family, I can assure you) are not entitled. Sure, they don't have as much to worry about, but they are out there working. Maybe it's unpaid internships, which their wealth permits. But some are in non-profits, some are scrabbling around looking for work, and some have decent enough jobs. Overall, though, my impression is that they are working their asses off and under a lot of stress. So, no, they don't feel entitled and they don't act entitled.

And the boomers? Rather than tar that entire generation with a broad brush, let's categorize differently and tar more accurately. It's the 1% who are the problem.

Okay, mini rant over.

[jtuck004]

59. There is a whole generation that should be saving themselves, and instead are working to make others

rich. The 1% got their money from the 99% who gave it up to buy big houses, lazy boys in which to park their fat asses, and tv. But a rich person can only fill one car seat - those tens upon tens of millions of cars carrying people to nowhere every day burn most of it. And the cows that are raised for their food, and...

you and me.

So don't give me that "it's only the 1%" crap. Everyone who is living a comfortable life in the US, while a quarter of the population is being left in or near poverty, with near 50 million people on food stamps, and policies that make the bank$ter/donors even wealthier is comfortable precisely because those other people are being left in poverty. We could come out with increases in programs, with hiring at the Federal level - lots of things we could do, that could be done with an executive order even, but we aren't. So it keeps everyone else a little wealthier, pretends there is a recovery.

If they weren't your money would be buying a whole lot less.

So it is everyone, whether they want to admit it or not.

You misunderstand. I don't give a rat's ass what the millennials do. All I am saying is that I recognize that the Boomers are lost, and the Ms are their own last best chance before the world burns up. But they appear to me as feeling entitled to something that they ain't gonna get, that they haven't worked for, and that, frankly, no one else seems to care whether they get or not - that is being able to live the rest of their lives (the world is burning up, after all.Unless one doesn't believe it. lol.).

I think they will let it burn because they are incapable of fixing it. We trained them to be this way, and while people do have the power to overcome adversity, I'm not sure they have the power to overcome schooling.

You seem to be all proud that everyone is working, all stand up and all. Good for them. The earth will burn up around them too.

The 1% may be the problem, but that means they won't fix themselves. The people can, or sit on their entitled asses and wait for someone else who will never come.

So far I haven't seen anything that proves me wrong, but it will be interesting to see if they fix the fucking problem instead of just pointing their stuffy litttle fingers at other people. It won't really affect me, but I bet their kids and kid's kids would appreciate it.

[bvar22]

67. Righteous Rant.

Dark things this way come.
Our real "last Chance" came under Carter, and If we had followed his guidelines, we would be better off today.
He WARNED us.

I believe we passed the Tipping Point when Reagan took the Solar HW Panels off the White House.
One of the things I have never forgiven Bill & Hillary was that they didn't put those panels BACK on the
White House roof on Day One.

You were pretty quick to write off The Boomers,
but it is The Boomers who are making all the advancements in sustainable farming,
lowering Carbon Footprints, alternative energy, and getting poisons out of our soils and foods.

So what is the answer?
Fiddle while Rome burns?

[jtuck004]

71. I don't mean to write us off, but we had all that and threw it away to satisfy our greed.

Now we are doing a little, but it's like pouring water on a bale of hay while the barn is burning down.

The boomers have the experience, but many simply aren't up to the physical struggle it will take - and I really do think it will result in pitched battles between armed camps. If we don't stop the burning we are all going to die a miserable death. (China puts in a new coal plant every 10 days or so to burn all the coal we are selling them - and the TPP will make that much worse in other countries). If we stop burning, it would be a struggle to eat, to heat our homes, but at least we would have a chance.

The younger ones don't know what living in an economy where people are mostly productive is like, and could use the experience of the others. What they have would be the strength of the youth to confront everyone and start the fight.

I don't see enough people working together to do anything but the same old stuff, which may not last another hundred years.

We can die trying to free ourselves, or lay here and let it roll over us. I don't mean to tell people what to do, but it seems awfully clear that someone is going to have to start some serious disruption or we are all gonna fry.

Given what I see people willing to do, I think I may take up the fiddle.

[CrispyQ]

95. This:

I think they will let it burn because they are incapable of fixing it. We trained them to be this way, and while people do have the power to overcome adversity, I'm not sure they have the power to overcome schooling.

I think of where we might be if we had listened to Jimmy Carter & started seriously working toward alternative energy back then. A squandered opportunity. Americans didn't want to be told to turn back their thermostats & wear sweaters in their houses, I guess, cuz I know a ton of people who were democrats & voted for Reagan.

I don't have contact with many people, especially young ones, but I don't see the activism & work for change that the other poster claims. Not in any generation. Personally, I think we're toast & as a collective we know it, so we're just going to party like it's 1999 as we go into the dustbin of history.

[Enthusiast]

53. Aren't you condemning an awful lot of very good non-lazy, non-obese with that broad bush?

Much of the environmental law that exists today was written by boomers and we had to fight the corporations tooth and nail to get it done.

If it was up to the corporate opposition there would be no clean air act or clean water act.

[jtuck004]

60. The world is burning up. Your laws along with them. We are all letting it happen. n/t

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

57. wait a minute.........

I'm a boomer, fat and probably lazy!
Corrupt, I'm not sure about. But tell me what you'd like me to do to turn this thing around and I'll do it.
I vote, I'm in a union, support my local independent media outlet (community radio) and recycle. I don't really have any money, nor a job that carries influence. I'm interested in hearing what I should do..........

[jtuck004]

63. We need to have a big national conversation about how to go forward with no growth.

Stop burning. Else we die. It's only a little more complicated than that, depending on where one gets their income.

Actually having the conversation is so much harder, and we will probably all be dead before we do.

Regardless, if things continue, the grand kids may find it hard to live here. And they will have us to thank.

I doubt they will spit on our graves. Water will be too precious by then.

[MineralMan]

24. As long as people use petroleum products, the oil will move.

If it doesn't people will starve to death.

If people think they can change that before there is another disaster, they're certainly welcome to try, as far as I'm concerned. I doubt they'll succeed, though. Have you looked at a population density map? There's no oil where it's the densest, on the east coast. So, the oil has to move from where it is found to where it is used.

[jtuck004]

28. No, I am saying they have to stop life as we know it. Everyone is too comfortable on

this ride down, and it is gonna make the landing very difficult. So far we have been able to avoid the effects that are already being seen in agriculture and land.

A few decades from now - we hope, but it may be sooner - food is going to be interrupted and tens of millions of people are going to be displaced.

That is gonna be a really bad day.

I think we need to create and manage the disaster before it happens to us, because if we wait that long we are going to lose.

Doubt we will.

[MineralMan]

29. Go for it! Really!

If you have any clout, start using it. I have none. I live in freaking Minnesota. Without natural gas, nobody could live here. Without gasoline and diesel, most people would starve in three months.

I sure can't figure out a solution. If you can, more power to you.

[jtuck004]

33. Oh, the solution is coming. One way or another. <G>

[bvar22]

40. You could move next door to us in the Deep South.

Our total heating bill last year was under $40.00,
and we enjoy the Hard Wood (Oak & Hickory) fires (renewable resource) in the Winter.

GOOD FOOD just grows up out of the ground,
the chickens lay eggs, and the Bees make Honey.
The Water the most people buy in those plastic containers in the supermarket
bubbles up out of the ground in the back yard.

What we are doing won't Save the World, but we do make a small difference...to more people than just us,
and this brings us some Peace of Soul.

[MineralMan]

41. I could do that. I can live and work anywhere.

Can I bring 300+ million people with me?

[bvar22]

52. This life is not for everyone.

It takes a fairly strong, broad skill set, and the ability to do lots of manual labor.
There really is nobody to call when something breaks.

I doubt we could fit 300,000,000 in this county,
and most of those couldn't survive without their car and a 20,000 sq ft Central Air "home".
Those few that can.....really enjoy it here,
but its not for everyone.

There is enough space, fertile ground, and water in The South to feed our nation easily.
(I wouldn't trust anything west of the Mississippi due to the coming Water Wars).

It would take a plan on the scale of an FDR to get this accomplished, and a complete revamp of our Economic System where protection from Hunger is a basic Human Right and not a commodity,
but the resources are here if we use them wisely.....


..but like you, I don't see enough people willing to make the effort.

[CrispyQ]

96. I want this:

...a complete revamp of our Economic System where protection from Hunger is a basic Human Right and not a commodity

bvar22 for president.

[JDPriestly]

13. We need to transport electricity, not oil across the country.

Then we need a massive solar panel installation in the Southwest. I have lived in Southern California and in Arizona for many years of my life. We can produce enough solar energy without killing off the wildlife to support the entire nation. We can do that in the West. Because we have states like California, Arizona, New Mexico, Utah and Nevada with vast areas of sun-filled land. If we just made sure that every roof in Los Angeles had solar panels and if we created solar panels on hillsides and on top of parking lots, we would have enormous amounts of electricity.

It's just a matter of will.

[demwing]

16. And profitability. /nt

[JDPriestly]

110. Profitability involves weighing the possibile losses of an action against the potential

gain. That is a major factor in profitability.

Loss v. gain.

The loss from a spill added to the damage from the carbon dioxide emitted and toxins leaked and spilled by fossil fuels, especially gas and oil in pipelines is so great that profitability is really not a question when considering replacing oil and gas.

The gain in saving the environment from oil spills and emissions and other leaks is unquestionably profitable.

The worst of this is that the pipeline company is probably legally a separate underinsured and underfunded entity from the oil and gas companies that make the big profits from the pipeline. If the pipeline leaks or breaks, if there is a tragic accident, a break in the pipeline for any reason, the cost of remediation of soil, water and the cost of the damage to human health and agriculture would be so great as to be unfathomable.

Profit is earnings less costs. With that pipeline, the potential costs cannot even be estimated. The pipeline needs to be prohibited from running anywhere near an aquifer.

A pipeline broke recently in the Santa Barbara area. In the ocean I think. That also is a tragedy.

We have to detox ourselves and live without oil, gas and coal.

I am reminded of the first paragraphs of a textbook on fossil fuels that was used in one of my daughter's organic chemistry classes: we cannot afford to burn petroleum because it is so useful, so necessary to us for the production of so many vital chemicals, medications and things we need.

Nonetheless, we continue to burn an irreplaceable resource. Our wanton waste of petroleum is shameful.

[MineralMan]

25. Cool. I'm all for it. Do you think it can be built before the next huge

oil spill from some pipeline or rail line? I doubt it very much. If we started tomorrow with the largest construction effort ever seen, what you describe might be in operation in 30 years. Until then, the oil will keep moving.

Look at a population density map of the US. Then look at an oil field map. The two are very dissimilar. People live where the oil isn't found, mainly. Oil goes from one to the other.

[JDPriestly]

109. It's a horrible reality.

We need far more solar energy, but installation is expensive. California was considering a plan to help low income families install solar panels, but I haven't heard much about the details yet. I will do some research on this, but not tonight.

Thanks.

[Enthusiast]

49. It is just a matter of will.

That is why we must separate corporations and state.

[Android3.14]

117. It's a nice dream, but the energy loss is prohibitive

Until we solve the dual issues of energy storage and transportation (both are profoundly inefficient), long pipelines, poisonous dead batteries and short electrical wires will remain the norm.

[JDPriestly]

118. No one thought that electricity was possible. But it is.

It's just a matter of time. Someone will solve these problems.

I never ever thought we would have the kind of electronic media we have. The radio only became a thing in households in the 1920s.

My grandmother always yelled, screamed loudly into the telephone. She could not fathom the idea that anyone could hear her at the other end unless she spoke very loudly.

Our imaginations are just too limited. The problem of transmitting the electricity from solar power stations will be solved, and if not, we will find ways to collect solar power in situations in which we now think that it is impossible. We will find a way.

Oil and gas are not the solution in the long term. They are killing our planet. Coal is even worse.

Here in Southern California, at the very least, we should have no use for coal or oil or gas. We need to switch quickly and efficiently to solar energy. This is especially true for powering air conditioners. Why are we using coal, gas or oil to make electricity on hot, sunny days when solar panels could be used? It's absurd.

We subsidize oil and gas exploration. Let's end or drastically reduce those subsidies and subsidize solar energy installations and weatherization.

We can do this. We just have to have a little trust and simply do it. Germany is the last place I would expect to have success with solar power. It is rainy and gloomy. In the winter, Northern Germany is cold and overcast very often. Yet they are using solar. They don't have oil. They don't want nuclear because it is too dangerous.

We have a far better climate for solar energy than does Germany. Let's use solar. Cut the subsidies for oil and gas and you will see how competitive solar energy really is.

[Android3.14]

121. We are definitely on the same page

This is why I support an Apollo-style program to fasttrack the technology and create a new 100% domestic energy infrastructure. Such a program has zero chance of happening unless we elect Mr. Sanders, and even then it is less than a snowball's chance.

[unapatriciated]

19. So your answer is to do nothing cause there are other disasters waiting to happen.

[MineralMan]

21. No. My answer is that it's Hobson's Choice.

Neither is a good solution. Both can cause disasters. The oil, however, is going to move, I guarantee, and there's not a damned thing to be done about it. As long as there are cars, trucks, and houses to be heated, and electricity to generate, the oil is going to move from where it was found to where it is used.

I'm not advocating anything. I'm telling you what the reality is.

[zipplewrath]

90. Unlikely

An accident of a single train would unlikely dump all 1 million gallons into the Mississippi.

Alternately, a single rupture of that single pipeline would dump more than a million gallons into the Great Lakes.

Comparatively, you'd rather all that oil move by train than by that pipeline.

Of course this is all a false dichotomy since there are more choices.

[Taitertots]

14. Thank god we have corporations. The people who profited from the pipe...

Should never have to pay if/when it's fails.

[demwing]

15. Does ANYONE believe that anything will be done?

its fucking depressing. I think the planet is better off without our species.

[MineralMan]

30. Yah, there's a solution.

Where do you suggest we start with that plan? Eh?

[demwing]

47. I'm being dramatically despondent

wasn't intended as a solution.

duh.

[MineralMan]

51. I see. I was being realistic.

Oh, well. I'm funny that way.

[demwing]

54. See...and I thought you were being sarcastic

still do.

[MineralMan]

74. Nope. Not sarcastic at all. Realistic.

[demwing]

77. OK. You think you were being realistic. I get that

so...what else? How's every little thing?

[Joe Turner]

85. Realistic corporate flack

is more like it. If there are not enough people stand up to the powers that be we are guaranteed to lose. I see Bernie Sanders as being one of our last hopes.

[KamaAina]

68. "Eh?" Are you Canadian? Do you work for Enbridge?

[MineralMan]

72. No to both. I work for myself,

and have since 1974. I also think for myself, and have since about 1954.

[KamaAina]

75. I know that! I just thought it was odd to see "Eh?" in a thread aboot a Canadian company.

[LiberalLovinLug]

138. As a resident Canadian I'll clear that up

MM said

"Where do you suggest we start with that plan? Eh?"

Notice the separate sentences for the first and second part of the statement. In Canadianese it would be more of a continuation of the sentence. In fact more like a continuation of the last word. There should not even be a second of a pause between the last word of that sentence and the word "eh"

"Where do you suggest we start with that plan-eh?"

You may now return to your scheduled programming.

[KamaAina]

139. So he screwed up his punctuation, eh?

[demwing]

79. Are you impressed with yourself?

or is that just you being "realistic"?

[MineralMan]

80. That depends, and changes from day to day...

[jwirr]

83. Maybe not but that should not keep us from trying. Imagine a dead zone

comprised of several of the Great Lakes.

[demwing]

98. Hell, imagine a one-lake dead zone

or a half dead lake, or a 1/3 dead lake...some people seem to think the danger is unrealistic, but even if we scale down the potential risk, the negative outcomes aren't worth whatever benefits are included. Ever.

[jwirr]

133. From what i read is directly touches Lake Michigan, Lake Huron and

starts in Superior WI so it also endangers Lake Superior.

If we let this happen it would be horrible.

[valerief]

17. Enron...Enbridge...they're entitled...we're endangered. nt

[wildbilln864]

18. k & freaking r! n/t

[Duppers]

27. K & R

[ChairmanAgnostic]

32. BP tried to get permission to drill under Lake Michigan

For some reason, sanity won out and they lost their bid to do so.

[Enthusiast]

45. Someone wanted to put drill rigs out on Lake Erie.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

56. I bet the algae bloom prevented them from finding the bottom.

[Enthusiast]

58. Could be.

[Kaleva]

39. A minor error in fact

The article claims the pipeline threatens 1/5th of the world's fresh surface water but a break in the line in the Straits of Mackinac would not affect Lake Superior as that lake rests at a higher elevation then Lakes Michigan and Huron which are connected by the straits. Lake Superior could hold all the water in the other Great Lakes, plus three more Lake Eries.

[MineralMan]

42. Now, now...

Don't spoil the panic.

[G_j]

55. that's right

a factual error negates anything to be concerned about. nothing to see here...

[MineralMan]

73. Well, it's not really going to cause a

"Mass extinction" either, is it? An oil spill like that would definitely be a bad thing, though, and would require a big cleanup effort. It would not, though destroy "one fifth of the fees water supply." Massive exaggeration is a poor tool.

[G_j]

99. point taken

still something of considerable concern. Frankly, there are enough ticking time bombs out there that people could be in a perpetual state of panic if they chose. Not that that would help anything.

[MineralMan]

124. All potential environmental pollution is of considerable concern.

I know that I pay attention to it. Exaggerated panicky posts about possible risks, however, do not contribute to helping remediate these threats.

That's a mistake all too many advocacy groups make all too often. The facts are easily available, so blowing things up out of all proportion simply makes the advocacy group look foolish. That's why I respond in threads like this. There's no "Mass Extinction" threat at all with this pipeline. It's a threat, but not anywhere near that level.

[Kaleva]

88. But if the headline and first sentence of the article are incorrect..

that may lead many to question the accuracy of the contents of the rest of the article.

[G_j]

100. true

though I am glad that the very existence of the pipeline is being discussed. I had never heard of it.

[MineralMan]

126. If you Google Oil Pipelines USA, you'll discover a number of maps

that show where they are. It's very interesting. There's probably one or even more right near where you live. Oil pipelines are ubiquitous all over the country. We don't know about them because they're mostly buried and hidden. We only hear about them when one springs a leak.

I recommend a bit of time exploring the results of that search. It's an interesting thing to learn about.

[G_j]

141. I will

thanks, sounds interesting for sure.

[Enthusiast]

44. Kicked and recommended to the Max! They need to turn this fucker off immediately!

WTF?

[mike_c]

65. it seems like hardly a day goes by any longer when it isn't absolutely clear...

...that Garrett Hardin was right.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full

[spanone]

66. K&R...

[Initech]

69. Oil is the single biggest evil in the world.

[former9thward]

82. Posted by a product made of oil products.

[SoLeftIAmRight]

70. do we have any chance for long term suvival

when are we going to fight the fights that will truly matter

[blackspade]

78. Is there anything big oil won't do kill us all in the pursuit of profit?

[lonestarnot]

104. No there is not.

[daleanime]

87. kick, kick, kick....

[nadine_mn]

89. this is just scary - humans wreck everything

I grew up on Lake Superior and the Great Lakes are so beautiful and it was bad enough when the taconite mines were dumping all their crud in the lake - this is just so much worse.

[flamingdem]

94. God help us

[deancr]

101. Here is a video

of the pipeline in question. The footage begins at about the 3 minute mark. Tick, tick, tick.

[lonestarnot]

103. Fucking oilers and deathers.

[Grown2Hate]

105. It's simple, really. Sociopaths are in charge. They prey on our addiction

to fossil fuels for our way of life to enrich themselves. And it doesn't bother them that we're destroying the planet. Why? Because they're sociopaths; they are incapable of feeling empathy for anyone else (including their own offspring; again, TRUE sociopaths), as it won't affect THEM in their lifetimes. Sociopaths with incredible marketing managers and endless money for the machine. We're more than a little fucked.

[Phlem]

106. Greed and Ignorance

holding hands. Let's not lump in the people who saw this coming decades ago (whom have been silenced) with the Oligarchy imposing unemployment and petulance, buying politicians, skipping safety regulations etc.. to do their dirty deeds and shore up the Status Quo.

We can not let greed destroy us!

[Pharaoh]

108. George Carlin "The American Dream"

Yep...........

[Stargazer99]

114. We need to act as a huge group to stop this crap and I mean huge

[MrScorpio]

112. Oh… My… Gawd!

And I'm not even religious.

[davidpdx]

120. The world is fucked if we continue this trend

[KansDem]

123. Why the fuck are we running oil pipelines underwater?

Are we really that stupid? Or greedy:

[The2ndWheel]

125. Probably more smart than stupid

It's a pretty good engineering accomplishment.

[Reter]

129. The Great Lakes are huge, but "one-fifth of the world’s fresh surface water"?`

20% is way more than I thought.

[historylovr]

130. Yay?

[mountain grammy]

131. Environmental time bombs are everywhere..

the pollution in Colorado's Animas River came from an old abandoned gold mine that had filled with water, because, gee golly, that's what happens to holes in the ground. Problem is, they are filled with chemicals used for mining, not to mention the naturally occurring heavy metals released by mining. There are thousands of these all over the southwest, many already leaking into waterways.

We are slowly killing everything, but the potential to kill everything quicker is just a few feet away.

[friendly_iconoclast]

140. YouTube link to the documentary:

[cyberswede]

143. It's really just a matter of time till we fuck everything up. nt