Reactionary students in Missouri protest transgender student's right to use bathroom/locker rooms

[gobears10]

Full Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us/teenagers-protest-a-transgender-students-use-of-the-girls-bathroom.html?_r=0

Holy fuck, why is this even a problem? Just let people go to the bathroom and locker room they feel most comfortable in. If others get offended then they are the ones with a problem. This should be a non-issue.

I wish this article had more of the protesters opinions though, if only so that I could refute them. It would probably the whole "This is just a guy who wants to look at girls in the locker room" spiel. Yeah, like people just choose to receive endless harassment and a significantly increased change of killing themselves in order to catch an unsexualized glimpse or two of women's bodies several years after they come out. That kind of argument makes me sick. It's such a dehumanizing and dishonest point of view.

Instead of protesting in favor of higher wages, lower college tuition, environmental sustainability, police accountability, reproductive rights, LGBT rights, and whatnot, these students felt it was more worth their time to protest against transgender rights. What these students are doing is very bigoted and reactionary, and I just hope that as they grow older, they'll become less intolerant, prejudiced, and ignorant. This is absolutely pathetic.

[LostOne4Ever]

1. Sad that they rather discriminate against a transgirl than find a solution

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Before the transphobes and haters start posting in this thread I want to say I personally think the solution here is that we need to get rid of this ridiculous notion of gendered bathrooms and locker rooms. Not only are communal restrooms/locker rooms/showering areas cause these situations, but they are also traumatizing to cis-people.

Just thinking back to gym class in high school leaves me shuddering at the extreme shame and embarrassment it caused me. I refused to get naked in front of everyone and showered wearing a towel, and I wasn't the only one who did that. It was a nightmare.

What they need to do is have co-ed bathrooms and locker rooms with private changing stalls, private showering stalls, and private toilet stalls. Not only would this fix the problem for transmen and transwomen, but also stop putting children through the hell that is the locker room. That would protect all the kids without singling out or excluding anyone.[/font]

[jberryhill]

2. Yeah, it's an architectural issue, not a social one

[oberliner]

3. Co-ed bathrooms and locker rooms?

I do agree with you about the unpleasantness of communal showers and the like, but I am not sure that co-ed locker rooms are a great idea.

Might that make some female students uncomfortable to have male students in the same bathroom/locker room?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

6. I agree. Co-ed locker rooms and bathrooms are not the answer

I certainly wouldn't feel safe in a co-ed locker room after working out very late at night at the local gym when it's practically deserted.

What happened to common sense?

[LostOne4Ever]

9. Again they have private stalls

[font face=Georgia size=4 color=teal]Women would have the same safety as they have in the main hall as they leave. Not to mention several sturdy stalls to lock yourself into if you feel unsafe.

This in comparasion to the semi private stalls we have now that anyone can crawl under. All an attacker has to do now is just enter the room and there is no where to run with the current system. Also having more people around more often would actually act as a deterrent.

So, in fact, If anything my solution would make women/girls more safe than they are now...

The only problem I can see w/ my suggestion is cost.[font]

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

10. No thanks. The camaraderie in the locker room

is part of the experience. Put guys in there. Ugh

Besides, even if the stall is locked, guys would still be in the locker room.

No thanks.

[LostOne4Ever]

12. So camaraderie is more important than privacy and inclusion

[font color=teal]There are also guys in the regular halls. Why not call for full gender segregation by that logic?[/font]

[WinkyDink]

18. Do students change their clothing, shower, and go to the toilet in the halls? (No, taking off a coat

doesn't count.)

[uppityperson]

20. They don't do that in the locker room either, but in the enclosed lockable stalls.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

34. Actually, you walk around in a towel after showering

in an open room. A few women walk in the nude. Lots of women put on make up and do their hair while wearing a towel. No, I don't sit on the toilet to powder my nose and do my hair. ugh

[gollygee]

40. They can change in a shower stall and do those things when dressed

I think it's more important for transgender kids to be able to use the shower rooms they're most comfortable with than for people to put on makeup in towels.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

42. We're also talking about private gyms

that adults use.

And, NO, I do not see co-ed locker rooms being popular. That's a really dumb idea when it comes to women safety.

[gollygee]

43. I don't like the idea of co-ed locker rooms

But I think transgender people should be able to use the locker room they're most comfortable witht.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

24. No, thanks.

No, thanks, to gender segregation in the gym, although I would imagine that one or two gender specific classes are ok.

Yes, to segregation in the locker rooms. Women walk around wrapped in towels while putting on makeup and fixing our hair. We don't do that in a steamy shower. Or sitting on the toilet.
We talk, we joke around. My sister's tennis group even eats in her locker room, but she belongs to a country club. (I've visited, but I'm not the club type.)

[LostOne4Ever]

47. No thanks? But by your own logic there would be boys!

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]See, that objection is baseless unless you want to advocate for full gender segregation ala Saudi Arabia...and that has worked out swimmingly for women over there.

They can still put on make up and fix their hair at the sink. They can even gather with their friends and joke around while they do it. Nothing preventing anything you mention.

And if they want to walk around in a towel they don't really care about privacy do they? Their concern is less privacy and more trans-misogyny. [/font]

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

49. Somewhere, this discussion turned to co-ed locker rooms

not a transgender person in the locker room.

And, sorry, but adding men to the mix, it would definitely change things a lot.

[LostOne4Ever]

50. Gender neutral bathrooms/locker rooms are a TG-related issue

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Gendered Bathrooms and locker-rooms discriminate against trans people and lead to discrimination/harassment/ and sometimes them being outed and assaulted.[/font]

[uppityperson]

52. What, specifically, is the problem with allowing her in the girls locker room?

Are you afraid she will be checking out the other girls?
Are you worried that the other girls will be checking her out?
Is the concern that she will assault one of the other girls?
Maybe you are afraid another girl will assault her?

I really don't understand the reason she should not be allowed to use the girls locker room.

[smirkymonkey]

15. Yeah, definitely not a good idea.

I would not feel safe, and I don't think most girls and women would either.

[LostOne4Ever]

7. Why would it make them uncomfortable if they have private stalls?

[font face=Georgia size=4 color=teal] they would become nothing more than another room full of lockers and a giant room with a sink.

How is this any different than the halls w/ lockers?

All changing clothes/bathing/using the facilities would be done in complete privacy of a private stall.[/font]

[WinkyDink]

16. And the money for these renovations?

[LostOne4Ever]

23. Public funds and taxes if need be

[font face=Georgia size=4 color=teal]I think if conservatives care so much about privacy it would be worth it. Otherwise just let the trans girl use the girls restroom and locker-room with all the other girls.[/font]

[Tipperary]

21. In the gyms I have belonged to we still have to walk from our lockers to the showers

and I would not want to be doing that with men in the same locker room. I doubt most men would be comfortable with it either. I usually wear a towel around me from the shower to the locker and back. I am a very modest person and try to dress/undress in private even around other women. No, just no, on men in the same space.

[LostOne4Ever]

29. There would be private shower stalls no men and more privacy nt

[Tipperary]

39. There are private shower stalls at my gym. There is a large locker room. We walk back and

forth between the stalls and the locker room, as well as the sauna. I do not see it as a possibility and I am pretty sure it is not going to happen. The men I know would not like this either.

[LostOne4Ever]

48. It probably won't happen but it would still fix the situation n/t

[Tipperary]

51. I have no problem with a transgender woman in the locker room. There is a trans woman at my gym and

it is a non issue. But none of us (her included) want to share a locker room with men and I am quite sure the men feel the same way lol.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

55. Ditto to everything you wrote!

nt

[LostOne4Ever]

58. You do know that poster is advocating for something you said you were against right?

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]She specifically said she was fine with transwomen using the women's locker room.[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7148321

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]I have no problem with a transgender woman in the locker room. There is a trans woman at my gym and it is a non issue. But none of us (her included) want to share a locker room with men and I am quite sure the men feel the same way lol.

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]You said you were against that in this very thread:[/font]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7147084

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]On the other hand, changing clothes in gym class might be problematic and create uneasiness for all involved - including Lila. There are no private stalls, and everyone just changes in front of their gym lockers. Wouldn't it be possible to ask Lila to change in one of the stalls in the bathroom (every dressing room has an attached bathroom).

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Which is it? Do you support the transgirl using the girls locker room or not?[/font]

[Tipperary]

60. I am not advocating anything and I am talking about adult women,

not children. You are trying to twist my viewpoint to win your argument with another poster, but I am quite sure she will see through that.

[LostOne4Ever]

62. So you think it is fine to discriminate against a transgirl but not a transwoman?

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]She is a young girl and allowing her to shower with the other girls is even more important.

I dropped my conversation with you because I assumed you were at least okay with the girl using the girl's locker room and supportive of transright. But if you oppose that her using the girls locker then you should at least support the gender neutral locker room.

The current situation of her either being isolated and discriminated against is not okay. Forcing her to bathe with the boys is the worst outcome. What else is left?

This is not about an argument. It is about a young transgirl's life.[/font]

[Tipperary]

63. I have no problem with gender neutral locker rooms if those using them

also agree. I think you and I are on the same side here but perhaps looking at it from different viewpoints. I think kids are in a different place and perhaps I should not comment because I do not have children.

[LostOne4Ever]

65. I got the impression we were on the same side too

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Glad that was the case [/font]

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

61. In a locker room for women, I support

trans women using the women's locker room.

In high school, I think sharing a locker room, especially depending on showering arrangements, could be more problematic if the kids have to shower together. She should be allowed to use the girl's bathroom, since the bathroom has stalls, I'm sure.

Basically, I feel like some common sense should rule for everyone's comfort.

[LostOne4Ever]

67. That is why I am calling for gender neutral facilities

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Like you said, it is not a big deal in the bathroom because the toilets have stalls (though the Highschool I went to they were not FULL stalls).

Putting in changing and showering stalls would make protect everyone's privacy. Making them co-ed would make things easier on trans and non-binary children.

It would also help cis-gender kids who don't want to change or bathe in front of other. It literally helps everyone.

Wouldn't you call something that helps everyone out, and addresses everyone's concern a common sense solution?

But in my experience common sense rarely makes sense to everyone, and is anything but common.[/font]

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

25. A giant room with a sink?

Sorry, not working.

[RKP5637]

54. Agree! At our school the guys used to compare dicks and all. It was tiring and humiliating. n/t

[gollygee]

4. Transgender people need to use the restrooms and locker rooms they're most comfortable in

Restrooms have individual stalls so no one has any reason to complain about them ever.

There's a transgender middle school kid in my life, and he is very uncomfortable about this issue. There are some boys at his school who bother him, and the school does a pretty good job keeping the bullies in line, but the restroom and locker room feel outside the adults' reach and therefore unsafe to him, so he wants to use the girls' locker room and restroom. Also, his friends are girls and he feels safest if he has them with him.

Kids are generally pretty uncomfortable and modest in locker rooms. The scene from Porky's was fiction. I don't think this is worth worrying about. Let the trasngender kid in the article use the facilities she's most comfortable with. She is probably afraid of bullies too. Don't force her to change around bullies. I don't think people are aware how difficult this is for transgender kids.

[hifiguy]

8. +1

[WinkyDink]

14. So this kid you know would feel cool being naked in the communal girls' shower?

[CTyankee]

26. well, when I was an older grad student at a local Dominican college I swam in the

college pool with one of the professors, a nun and an older classics professor. She would strip right down in the communal shower, absolutely no reservations. So I came back after that first experience and told my husband "I showered naked with a nun today." The look on his face was priceless!

[gollygee]

30. Do you know how this school's showers are set up?

In a lot of newer schools (like my daughter's) they have stalls.

[smirkymonkey]

17. I don't have a problem w/ transgender kids using the appropriate locker room,

but I don't think straight cis males & females should be sharing a locker room. It was bad enough being ogled with clothes on, I would think it would be quite threatening for girls in various states of undress.

Besides, I just found locker rooms horrific anyway. I still do. I was never teased or anything, I am just extremely modest and not comfortable in them.

[WinkyDink]

19. You don't THINK?? It would be DISASTROUS FOR THE GIRLS, FOR GOD'S SAKE. Cell-phones, anyone?

We're talking about kids 13-18.

Have people here lost their minds and memories??!

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

27. No, they think they've very progressive and

opened minded.

So open minded, in fact, I think some people's brains have fallen out.

[gollygee]

33. I agree

Transgender kids should use the locker room they feel works best for them, but cis gender kids should use the appropriate locker room, and I am not in favor of unisex locker rooms, although having a few unisex shower stalls and changing rooms you can reach without going through either locker room might be very welcoming to transgender and intersex kids. But every kid would want to use them. There'd have to be some kind of policy around them.

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

5. How about some common sense?

Last edited Mon Sep 7, 2015, 05:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Surely, Lila should be able to use the girls' bathrooms in school. I've never seen a public school bathroom withOUT (eta "out) private stalls! This is ridiculous.

On the other hand, changing clothes in gym class might be problematic and create uneasiness for all involved - including Lila. There are no private stalls, and everyone just changes in front of their gym lockers. Wouldn't it be possible to ask Lila to change in one of the stalls in the bathroom (every dressing room has an attached bathroom).

[WinkyDink]

13. A bathroom is more than just a bunch of stalls. It's fixing one's attire; maybe buying a tampon;

making bodily function noise (the doors don't reach to the floor, unlike those in European uni-sex bathrooms).

[gollygee]

36. Kids can't fix attire or buy a tampon in front of a transgender person?

Why would that be a problem? My kid has had sleepovers, gone camping, and stayed in hotel rooms with a transgender person. It isn't a big deal.

[uppityperson]

64. What would be wrong with fixing one's attire, buying a tampon or even farting in front of a

transgendered person? That it is more difficult to do these things in front of someone that gender identifies as you do?

[uppityperson]

57. Are you saying she should be denied use of the girls locker room because she would be uneasy using

it?

[WinkyDink]

11. What of the rights of the girls not to have a boy in their midst?

[uppityperson]

22. There is no boy in the article so that argument is irrelevant. eom

[WinkyDink]

28. Really? Well, this 17-year-old was a self-identified boy until February. So now this kid can make

demands of the girls who have been girls since birth? Because it's all about this 17-year-old's particular "comfort" and no-one else's?

[uppityperson]

38. You must not have read the article or else missed the words "publicly" and "13".

I’m hoping this dies down,” said Lila Perry, the 17-year-old who began identifying as a girl publicly in February. “I don’t want my entire senior year to be like this.”

Ms. Perry, who began feeling “more like a girl than a boy” when she was 13, said school officials gave her permission to use the girls’ facilities as the new school year began."

She has been identifying herself for 4+ years, but publicly since Feb.

Because she's identified for less than 5 years means her "comfort" (and how odd for you to put that in quotes) should be ignored, that she should be subjected to what she has because others are ignorant of what this means?

[Oneironaut]

56. Why does it matter, exactly?

Why is it important how long she has been out?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

31. No, but there is a penis

Lila should be allowed to use the girls' bathroom, but should not be using the girls shower and changing with the girls. And would Lila really be comfortable undressing with girls?

Surely, some common sense and middle ground can be found?

[uppityperson]

32. Sounds like Lila is fine being in the girls locker, it is the others who are uncomfortable.

I'd be more concerned at the girls who were checking her out hoping to see a penis. Those girls have a problem.

[Juicy_Bellows]

41. In the video they state that she was offered her own private accommodations but she didn't want

to go that route - which I get but it makes things difficult. There are a bunch of other girls and their comfort levels to consider as well. You don't get to hear, as the OP said, many of the other girls feelings on the matter.

Showering with the boys doesn't sound like it would work too well but I'd like to hear how it was last year when she did - were there issues?

[TexasMommaWithAHat]

44. I don't think Lila identified as female

until recently.

My daughter is very close to someone in high school who is FtM transgender. He does not want to shower with the boys, and I don't blame him, nor does he want to shower with the girls. Just a couple of years ago, everyone knew him as female.

Unfortunately, there are a couple of years in the life of a transgender when things are complicated, to say the least.

[uppityperson]

45. The vid says she has for 4+ yrs but just came out publicly last Feb.

[LostOne4Ever]

35. +infinity nt

[gollygee]

37. +1 !!!!

[Humanist_Activist]

68. Would Juror #3 come out of hiding? This is such fucking bullshit!

[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert

Mail Message
On Mon Sep 7, 2015, 07:58 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

What of the rights of the girls not to have a boy in their midst?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7148195

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Calling a transgender girl a boy is very insulting and bigoted, and this poster, given their history, should know better.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Mon Sep 7, 2015, 08:31 PM, and voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I vote to leave it because the poster is ignorant about the subject. Hiding it is not going to make a difference to this poster, but educating him probably will. It's better to respond and correct than to hide.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is a bigoted post.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you.

To Juror #3, this is the poster you want to "educate", good fucking luck:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026325346#post56

Oh, and why the fuck is transphobia so fucking tolerated on this fucking board.

[Oneironaut]

46. Zomg teh pervs are gonna pretend to be transgender! Etc. etc.

You can tell most of these people really aren't informed either. Everyone always has to have an opinion, though.

[steve2470]

53. On a trivial side note, NONE of the news coverage mentions her parents or guardians...

I find that really strange. She's still 17, not an adult. If she was 18, I could understand that lack of mention, but at 17 ? Nope. If Lila didn't want the news media talking to her parents/guardians, they could at least mention that fact.

Ok, I spoke too soon.

Perry says things between her and her parents have been "difficult" during her journey. She noted that they asked not to be mentioned to the media and "want to be left out of everything."

http://www.people.com/article/lila-perry-transgender-hate-high-school-protest

[backscatter712]

59. Welcome to the state of Misery... n/t

[Initech]

66. The people who are offended are the ones with the problem, that is for sure.