Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

iandhr

(6,852 posts)
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:19 PM Sep 2015

Ben Carson Shattering Stereotype About Brain Surgeons Being Smart

WASHINGTON Brain surgeons, long burdened with the onerous reputation of being among the smartest people in the world, are expressing relief that the Republican Presidential candidate Ben Carson is shattering that stereotype once and for all. In interviews with brain surgeons across the country, the doctors revealed the enormous pressure they felt to live up to their profession’s inflated renown for intelligence before Carson entered the race. “When people found out I was a brain surgeon they would always assume I was some kind of a genius,” said Harland Dorrinson, a neurosurgeon in Toledo, Ohio. “Now they are beginning to understand that you can know a lot about brain surgery and virtually nothing about anything else.”

Dorrinson said that acquaintances used to view him as a source of wisdom on a wide range of subjects, but added, “Ever since Ben Carson said that prisons make people gay, that’s really fallen off.”

The brain surgeon said that he would probably contribute to Carson’s campaign to keep him in the race: “every time he says something, it helps bring people’s unrealistic expectations about brain surgeons back down to earth.”


http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/ben-carson-shattering-stereotype-about-brain-surgeons-being-smart

63 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Ben Carson Shattering Stereotype About Brain Surgeons Being Smart (Original Post) iandhr Sep 2015 OP
What's the difference between God and a brain surgeon? Human101948 Sep 2015 #1
I know a surgeon mainstreetonce Sep 2015 #2
i always wondered why knitting, crochet, etc. wasn't a prerequisite unblock Sep 2015 #14
PAC man required--at least the old version on the MADem Sep 2015 #28
Well he does have good hands mainstreetonce Sep 2015 #30
Ben Carson thinks God gave him the answers to his college chemistry final. beac Sep 2015 #19
So common among religious cons. A fellow gardener who won a Hortensis Sep 2015 #35
I don't think he's dumb LittleBlue Sep 2015 #3
Being a black Republican… MrScorpio Sep 2015 #4
doesn't simply *being* a black republican already out-crazy the craziest white guy in the room? unblock Sep 2015 #15
Actually this has to with the general dynamics of being black in white spaces… MrScorpio Sep 2015 #20
I am convinced qwlauren35 Sep 2015 #33
So you're saying that Carson doesn't believe what he says? yardwork Sep 2015 #34
Probably true Android3.14 Sep 2015 #37
You know, I'm developing actual contempt for posters who compare Clinton to Republicans. yardwork Sep 2015 #48
Actually, and here is the important bit, Android3.14 Sep 2015 #50
I'm not a follower of any politician. yardwork Sep 2015 #56
Then the DNC should smarten up and back a real primary rather than this coronation Android3.14 Sep 2015 #57
Like Trump, Carson probably doesn't need the money. But both are tblue37 Sep 2015 #43
I think he is nuts n2doc Sep 2015 #7
He is a wacko! (And I don't use that term loosely.) immoderate Sep 2015 #16
Maybe he tried out a procedure on himself, and the scalpel slipped...? nt MADem Sep 2015 #29
Ted Kaszinsky Comes To Mind ProfessorGAC Sep 2015 #39
I know a very professional person who believes that Aliens are "Planted" in the Government. BlueJazz Sep 2015 #5
He must have taken Men In Black II seriously. iandhr Sep 2015 #6
I have noticed our mail person is different a lot of times. Maybe gathering information from a .... BlueJazz Sep 2015 #9
Our mail person Blue_In_AK Sep 2015 #26
If the medical school stereotype is true.... Initech Sep 2015 #8
Well you know what they say about brain surgery: GreatGazoo Sep 2015 #10
Carson seems like a guy no one ever questions. DirkGently Sep 2015 #11
this is why people like Carson, Fiorina and Trump treestar Sep 2015 #55
I know a lot of people who'd be considered "book smart" in that..... marmar Sep 2015 #12
I've worked in Healthcare for a very long time. BigDemVoter Sep 2015 #13
I've also asked angryvet Sep 2015 #23
Surgeons are technicians, like auto mechanics. It takes a fair amount of tblue37 Sep 2015 #45
agreed NewJeffCT Sep 2015 #24
I don't think the fact that his political views virgogal Sep 2015 #31
I agree with you. I've always 840high Sep 2015 #32
the OP NewJeffCT Sep 2015 #42
It's possible to be very smart and also very ignorant. Perfect example. OregonBlue Sep 2015 #17
Another Borowitz gem! Yeah, the ***shit*** that comes out of Carson's mouth valerief Sep 2015 #18
Great line. Every word is gold. Octafish Sep 2015 #21
Assumptions of intelligence lakercub Sep 2015 #22
My grandfather was an engineer, an officer in the Army Air Force during World War II... hunter Sep 2015 #47
I am well aware that education is not the same as intelligence Skittles Sep 2015 #60
Add Ted "Carnival" CRUZ to the "smart" list. DERSHOWITZ & TOOBIN have claimed UTUSN Sep 2015 #25
Next up: A guy who's a rocket scientist who can't tie his shoes. Spitfire of ATJ Sep 2015 #27
One word...Asperger's. Walk away Sep 2015 #36
he's in a world he's unfamiliar with. he's being told what to say. not sure where he got the idea KG Sep 2015 #38
Our religious fundie candidates are all low in intellectual curiosity. Hortensis Sep 2015 #40
Actaully, I have long thought that Ben Carson has been . . . DrBulldog Sep 2015 #41
Brain surgery - It's not rocket science! aidbo Sep 2015 #44
I love good satire Gothmog Sep 2015 #46
someone once said "Remember that half the doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class. hobbit709 Sep 2015 #49
They don't own the brains. They just work on them. cpompilo Sep 2015 #51
I've worked with neurosurgeons my entire career in medicine. FloridaBlues Sep 2015 #52
What people don't understand about post-graduate education nichomachus Sep 2015 #53
I've always liked the... 3catwoman3 Sep 2015 #58
Graduate school is where you learn to call a spade- eridani Sep 2015 #62
lol treestar Sep 2015 #54
it truly mystifies me Skittles Sep 2015 #59
God complex? moondust Sep 2015 #61
What do you call someone who graduates dead last from med school? Ino Sep 2015 #63
 

Human101948

(3,457 posts)
1. What's the difference between God and a brain surgeon?
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:23 PM
Sep 2015

God doesn't think He is a surgeon.

Apparently his big qualification for surgery was being excellent at Foosball.

unblock

(52,436 posts)
14. i always wondered why knitting, crochet, etc. wasn't a prerequisite
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:15 PM
Sep 2015

that seems to me to have relevance to surgery than foosball or pac-man. you know, sutures and such. could it be that not too many males knit? nah....

video games were descendants of military simulators, so games like pac-man are more in line with fighter pilot training than surgery.


MADem

(135,425 posts)
28. PAC man required--at least the old version on the
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:05 PM
Sep 2015

table consoles and so forth did--fine motor responses to turn those corners and swift reactions to those things that would chase and eat you.

Nowadays, they use super glue a lot in surgery. I'm guessing they make the junior people do all the sewing, too.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
35. So common among religious cons. A fellow gardener who won a
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:39 PM
Sep 2015

won a little prize drawing recently started thanking God for giving it to her. I had my usual knee-jerk irritation -- it wasn't like it was the first time, or tenth, around here for that nonsense. As usual I imagined asking if she wasn't going to give it back since she didn't win it honestly. We'd all paid for our chances, after all. She was way too happy and nice for anything like that, of course.

Scientists say conservatives and liberals literally see moral issues differently. And of course, religious conservatives. Don't I believe it! But how about rationality and cognitive function? Carson is a man of science who also believes implicitly that the planet is only about 6000 years old or so. Very common phenomenon. No conflict. Both beliefs held at once.

Maybe that's why so many want that wall on the southern border. The ones in their heads work so well.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
3. I don't think he's dumb
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:28 PM
Sep 2015

He's pandering in the way he is required.

He's black, so he has to be more whackjobish than the rest.

MrScorpio

(73,631 posts)
4. Being a black Republican…
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:34 PM
Sep 2015

Means that you have to out-crazy the craziest white guy in the room in order to appear half as legit.

unblock

(52,436 posts)
15. doesn't simply *being* a black republican already out-crazy the craziest white guy in the room?
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:16 PM
Sep 2015


or if that's not enough -- being a black republican who thinks he can actually win the nomination of a staunchly bigoted party?

MrScorpio

(73,631 posts)
20. Actually this has to with the general dynamics of being black in white spaces…
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:43 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Mon Sep 21, 2015, 04:49 PM - Edit history (1)

And the need to over-achieve in order to be accepted as an equal.

With Republicans, of course, this has to do with appearing as if you've lost your fucking mind. Black conservatives usually have to pander to whites in order to obtain the proper response from their white peers.

Always notice that the messages from "successful" black conservatives relate are usually tailored for white audiences. Black conservatives aren't talking to black people, because there's an inherent anti-blackness message in that kind of language. Black cons try to get ahead by making white conservatives feel good about themselves.

Black cons are opportunists, pure and simple. Most of the time they don't even believe half the shit that they say. You can always tell the crazy ones that actually do… Carson isn't one of them.


qwlauren35

(6,152 posts)
33. I am convinced
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:21 PM
Sep 2015

that Carson is being paid to say these things. Because no black person could believe them.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
37. Probably true
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:50 PM
Sep 2015

Many people in the Republican party are selfish nihilists. Trump and Carson are perfect examples of people without a need for a moral or ethical compass. Clinton too.

yardwork

(61,748 posts)
48. You know, I'm developing actual contempt for posters who compare Clinton to Republicans.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:58 PM
Sep 2015

Your gratuitous and casual comparison of Clinton to Ben Carson comes across as ill-informed, at best.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
50. Actually, and here is the important bit,
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 04:44 PM
Sep 2015

rather than comparing Clinton to Republicans, I'm comparing Hillary and Republicans to nihilists who will say things in which they don't even believe, but which their corporate masters approve, in order to convince people to support them.

But speaking of contempt, I've noticed that the followers of certain individuals will often reflect that individual's characteristics.

yardwork

(61,748 posts)
56. I'm not a follower of any politician.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 05:18 PM
Sep 2015

I'm old enough to know what happens when Republicans take over.

 

Android3.14

(5,402 posts)
57. Then the DNC should smarten up and back a real primary rather than this coronation
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 05:54 PM
Sep 2015

Ms. Clinton motivates about as well pushing a rope uphill and will bring us more Neville Chamberlain politics, whereas Sanders will make this country better and motivates the base to vote.

tblue37

(65,507 posts)
43. Like Trump, Carson probably doesn't need the money. But both are
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:11 PM
Sep 2015

narcissists, and both crave the adulation of fawning crowds.

n2doc

(47,953 posts)
7. I think he is nuts
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:42 PM
Sep 2015

Many examples of smart nut cases out there. I think he OD'ed on the fundie hateraide. I have read where his old friends don't recognize the man he has become.

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
5. I know a very professional person who believes that Aliens are "Planted" in the Government.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:38 PM
Sep 2015

When he first talked about it, I thought for sure that a camera crew was going to come around the corner...everybody would laugh and the Doctor would say "HA! I Gotcha!

No camera crew came out.

iandhr

(6,852 posts)
6. He must have taken Men In Black II seriously.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:40 PM
Sep 2015

When Will Smith shows Tommy Lee Jones that "just about everyone who works at the post office is a alien .

 

BlueJazz

(25,348 posts)
9. I have noticed our mail person is different a lot of times. Maybe gathering information from a ....
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:49 PM
Sep 2015

"different Alien perspective"

Initech

(100,128 posts)
8. If the medical school stereotype is true....
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 12:47 PM
Sep 2015

(At least according to my brother, a medical school graduate, and some friends of ours) Surgeons are generally regarded as the biggest assholes in the medical community. I suspect that Dr. Carson is no different.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
11. Carson seems like a guy no one ever questions.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:02 PM
Sep 2015

Carly Fiorina has this issue as well. Both say things that wouldn't hold up as sensible in the most casual of conversations, but with an air of absolute comfort that no one will ever challenge them.

Maybe this is a vulnerability to which people in positions of power or accomplishment are especially susceptible.

They're used to people just nodding their heads quietly because they are the most respected person in the room.

Even when they are being complete idiots, they think no one will notice or dare to say anything?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
55. this is why people like Carson, Fiorina and Trump
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 05:15 PM
Sep 2015

would find that if they miraculously were elected, they would be in the WH two days when they realized they hate this job. They'd have to deal with compromise and opposition.

marmar

(77,109 posts)
12. I know a lot of people who'd be considered "book smart" in that.....
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:02 PM
Sep 2015

...... they're good at following prescribed processes and parroting what they've been taught, but wouldn't know an independent, original thought if they tripped over it.


BigDemVoter

(4,158 posts)
13. I've worked in Healthcare for a very long time.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:14 PM
Sep 2015

I've known lots of "brilliant" physicians. "Brilliant" in terms of being a physician doesn't mean "well-informed", "well read" or anything along those lines. In fact, I find that in areas of hard science, often (not always) you will find many smart people who are off the chart IN THEIR AREAS but don't spend much time reading about other things.

angryvet

(181 posts)
23. I've also asked
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:50 PM
Sep 2015

what book they read last. Surgery requires technical ability...they need to be able to make the connection between their brain and the knife. It doesn't require general knowledge. People make a huge mistake elevating this "great surgeon." He is like many I've known who you wonder how they remember how to get dressed in the morning.

tblue37

(65,507 posts)
45. Surgeons are technicians, like auto mechanics. It takes a fair amount of
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:15 PM
Sep 2015

memorization, plus fine eye-hand coordination, to do the job well. It is nice if the auto mechanic or the surgeon is well-read, intellectually curious, and capable of doing more than just fixing the broken machine--nice, but not necessary.

NewJeffCT

(56,829 posts)
24. agreed
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:51 PM
Sep 2015

I think he's probably excellent in his field and "brilliant" in that area. (Didn't he perform some pioneering type of surgery?)

However, outside of that one area, not so much.

I used to work with a guy that had his PhD from MIT in some mathematical field. Brilliant if you give him any sort of math problem, but he also thinks Fox News is fair and balanced. When a more moderate Republican called him out on that, "Look, I'm a Republican, but even I can see that Fox is biased for Republicans..." the math guy's response was, "Well, if they are biased, everybody else is WAY more biased for the Democrats." In case you were wondering, this guy is white. It's almost like a switch is flipped with him - ON is him working through complex actuarial tables, OFF is mouth-breathing Freeper.




 

virgogal

(10,178 posts)
31. I don't think the fact that his political views
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:14 PM
Sep 2015

differ from ours makes him a "mouth breather".

I'm also curious about your inclusion of his race. Who cares?

NewJeffCT

(56,829 posts)
42. the OP
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:07 PM
Sep 2015

is about Carson and several replies were about him being a black Republican - I just wanted to point out that this guy was NOT black.

and, the former co-worker was pretty much a Freeper type once you got him beyond math questions.

valerief

(53,235 posts)
18. Another Borowitz gem! Yeah, the ***shit*** that comes out of Carson's mouth
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:29 PM
Sep 2015

proves he's a one-trick pony.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
21. Great line. Every word is gold.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:43 PM
Sep 2015


"Ben Carson Shattering Stereotype About Brain Surgeons Being Smart"

lakercub

(659 posts)
22. Assumptions of intelligence
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:48 PM
Sep 2015

Much of society appears to attribute a great deal of all-around intelligence to individuals in certain fields. Doctors, engineers, lawyers, and theoretical scientists all seem to get credit for being generally brilliant, when, in fact, they probably aren't. I find this to be especially true in the applied science fields (doctors and engineers are two prime examples). I'm an electrical engineer, and when I tell people that, I start getting asked my opinions on many things because the presumption is anyone who has an engineering degree must be smart. Naturally, in my case, that's true , but the assumption is misguided.

It's true that engineers, doctors, and lawyers do get quite a bit of education, but it is often very specific education. If you come to me with questions about satellite communications, I will be a better resource for answers than some guy off the street (at least I'd better be). But that does not make me an expert on climate science, evolution, or vaccination. There are very smart individuals in all these fields who do branch out past their particular fields of study and are very knowledgeable on a wide range of topics. If they apply the rigor required to get through the schooling for their particular field to everyday knowledge, they will likely be able to learn a great deal because they have "learned how to to learn."

But many in these fields do nothing of the kind. They may know everything there is to know about their field but, since that is where their interests lie, they are wholly ignorant concerning anything outside that field. I work with some engineers who can absolutely dazzle with their breadth of knowledge and quick command of engineering facts. Unfortunately, once they leave the office, they are barely fit to tie their own shoes.

There is also a bias within the profession that, because we are highly educated, we have a highly honed ability to reason through that which we don't already know. But without putting in the time and effort to learn the facts about a particular topic, that particular line of thinking is typically absurdly wrong.

This is why you get doctors ignorantly commenting on climate change. The skills learned to be a brain surgeon are wonderful, but it doesn't make one a climate scientist no matter how much one thinks one knows. Doctors learn to apply biology, but that doesn't mean they necessarily understand the theories behind it, which is why we get doctors who are profoundly ignorant about evolution. Electrical engineers study quite a bit of physics and even some chemistry, but much of the theory behind it is lost to them. The goal is to learn to apply it, not necessarily master the theory. Only those willing to take the time will learn how the theories under gird what is seen in practice.

So Dr. Carson might very well be a brilliant brain surgeon. So what? That means nothing when it comes to his understanding of evolution or climate change. In fact, given how much intense and specific work I'm sure it took to become a brain surgeon, I'd be skeptical of his knowledge on most things that don't relate to brain surgery and some general medicine.

hunter

(38,340 posts)
47. My grandfather was an engineer, an officer in the Army Air Force during World War II...
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:41 PM
Sep 2015

... not flying, but doing stuff he never talked about, and later working on the Apollo Project, which was his greatest pride.

His personal life was always a mess. Sure he could tie his shoelaces, but he didn't always remember to do it, so he usually he wore shoes without laces. His style of dress was unique. I think he was steampunk, born a century too soon. He loved brass and gold and leather and fine antique watches and vacuum tubes.

He was a wizard with titanium and other exotic materials, skills he'd acquired by means he never revealed. But outside his career he was a crackpot inventor, a seeker of space alien intelligence in the radio spectrum and by UFO observations, and an occasional Kennedy Assassination Conspiracy theorist.

Politically my grandfather was "conservative" but he thought highly of Kennedy, the President who had challenged the nation to land men on the moon, allowing my grandfather to figure out how to fabricate some various bits of metal that got us there.

So much as I admire my grandfather, he would have been a terrible President of the U.S.A..

Politics is a different sort of specialty.

Obama is one of this nation's great Presidents, what this nation needed after the Bush catastrophe.

Sanders and Clinton are both competent and experienced politicians.

The Republican Candidates, including Carson, are an evil clown car.

Unfortunately this nation has suffered many evil clown Presidents in my lifetime. Nixon, Reagan, the Bushes...

We mustn't let that happen again.



Skittles

(153,258 posts)
60. I am well aware that education is not the same as intelligence
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 09:21 PM
Sep 2015

but Carson sounds so incredibly stupid - it is very unsettling

UTUSN

(70,777 posts)
25. Add Ted "Carnival" CRUZ to the "smart" list. DERSHOWITZ & TOOBIN have claimed
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 01:51 PM
Sep 2015

that Carnival is very, very smart and should not be underestimated and dismissed as a clown. Proficiency in a specific activity (surgery; law school debating) does not equate with or translate into "smartness" in everything else.

Walk away

(9,494 posts)
36. One word...Asperger's.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:50 PM
Sep 2015

And I mean no offence to others with Asperger's. Ben is a combination of the condition and being a self satisfied asshole.

KG

(28,753 posts)
38. he's in a world he's unfamiliar with. he's being told what to say. not sure where he got the idea
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 02:56 PM
Sep 2015

he was fit ti run for prez.

Hortensis

(58,785 posts)
40. Our religious fundie candidates are all low in intellectual curiosity.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:04 PM
Sep 2015

I've noticed and started watching for that pattern ever since I picked up on the idea with Sarah Palin. It's also a very strong pattern in some people I know personally. They are very committed to their religion and can be very involved in the life of their church, family, whatever, but are often as ignorant as two bags of broken hammers when it comes to anything "outside" -- because they're not interested.

Also, I imagine their belief that their holy books contain all answers makes it extremely easy for them to avoid doing any homework about boring outside stuff -- that's strictly for those who cannot "see." But I suspect that egg comes after the chicken. I.e., personality > ignorance > fundamentalist religion > ignorance.

Mitt Romney fit that pattern. He's a smart, sophisticated man living a big life, but some who know him have commented that he is surprisingly ignorant about anything he doesn't actually need to know for his own business and church affairs.

And of course our best example...W, famous for astonishing ignorance long before he became famous as a president who boasted of consulting his "belly" for answers.

BTW, I've read that lack of interest in learning for the sake of knowledge does NOT apply to people of "open, mature religiosity." Very different breed from fundies.

 

DrBulldog

(841 posts)
41. Actaully, I have long thought that Ben Carson has been . . .
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 03:05 PM
Sep 2015

. . . operating upon himself, and one time he cut a little too deep.

FloridaBlues

(4,013 posts)
52. I've worked with neurosurgeons my entire career in medicine.
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 05:07 PM
Sep 2015

Indeed they are smart but there's a few of them that lack common sense.

nichomachus

(12,754 posts)
53. What people don't understand about post-graduate education
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 05:10 PM
Sep 2015

Is that it leads to specialization. For example, you start out studying English. Then, you narrow it down to Shakespeare. Then, you narrow that down to his sonnets. Then, you narrow that down to the grammar in his sonnets. Finally, you write your dissertation on "The misuse of the semi-colon in the later sonnets of Shakespeare." Just what the world has been waiting for.

As they say, when you do enough graduate work, you know more and more about less and less -- until pretty soon you know everything there is to know about nothing at all.

(You can use that on the next person waving their PhD around.)

eridani

(51,907 posts)
62. Graduate school is where you learn to call a spade-
Tue Sep 22, 2015, 03:21 AM
Sep 2015

--a leveraged tactile feedback geomass delivery system.

Skittles

(153,258 posts)
59. it truly mystifies me
Mon Sep 21, 2015, 09:20 PM
Sep 2015

whenever I hear him speak, he sound so freaking STUPID - how it possible he was so successful as a surgeon?

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Ben Carson Shattering Ste...