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markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:23 PM Sep 2015

A couple of thoughts about the Pope and Kim Davis

Last edited Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:28 PM - Edit history (1)

There have been articles posted here and elsewhere about Pope Francis' statement, in apparent support of Kim Davis, that government officials have a human right to decline to discharge duties that violate their conscience. Just so you understand where I am coming from, I am a 54-year-old gay man, an Episcopalian, a staunch supporter of marriage equality as well as all other civil rights for LGBTQ persons -- causes I have supported since the day I came out 35 years ago, in 1980, at the age of 19. I have very much admired Pope Francis' statements on issues such as economic inequality, social justice and the environment. So you might expect that this news would come as some terrible disappointment to me. But the fact of the matter is that I just can't get particularly incensed by it. The way I see it, it is simply an indicator that the Pope has his blind spots (as does his institution). I can still applaud him on those areas where he is a breath of fresh air. But there are also a couple of other things to keep in mind . . .

First, we don't really know what information the Pope has been given about the Kim Davis case, or whether it was information he gleaned on his own or if he might have been briefed about it by, say, an American bishop or other aide. I can imagine that if he was briefed on it by someone like Cardinal Archbishop Timothy Dolan, for example, then the information would have had quite a spin on it.

But besides all of the above, there's a certain fallacy built into the question that was put to the Pope, in that Kim Davis was never denied the right to refrain, herself, from issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. The option of allowing others to issue the marriage licenses she felt she could not, as a matter of (alleged) conscience was available to her from the beginning, and was offered as a way to avoid legal action by the lawyers for the couples who ultimately sued. But she refused that because she wanted to prevent any of her staff from issuing the licenses as well. Somehow, I suspect that if Pope Francis were fully apprised of all of the details of this case, he might see it rather differently. And if not, well, then I guess he's just infallibly wrong on this particular subject.

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A couple of thoughts about the Pope and Kim Davis (Original Post) markpkessinger Sep 2015 OP
I like the excuse that the pope has no clue and that his repulsive utterances are all mistakes. Warren Stupidity Sep 2015 #1
Good points all, and you very well may be right . . . markpkessinger Sep 2015 #3
You're right, this is the very first time he's said or done something negative about LGBT rights. PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #7
1 AuntPatsy Sep 2015 #16
Can a Priest marry Downwinder Sep 2015 #2
Not Catholic priests. Episcopalian priests can marry and the Episcopalian church mnhtnbb Sep 2015 #5
Married men can be, and are, ordained to the priesthood in Eastern rite Catholic Churches . . . markpkessinger Sep 2015 #8
Francis is not a dumb nor ignorant man. I assure you he's well informed. PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #4
I don't presume to know that he is or isn't clueless . . . markpkessinger Sep 2015 #9
This message was self-deleted by its author PeaceNikki Sep 2015 #6
So you think he didn't know all the details right? LostOne4Ever Sep 2015 #10
I did not, for one minute, suggest he supports, or ever would support, same-sex marriage... markpkessinger Sep 2015 #12
So your theory is that he's a hapless idiot who rambles on about things he knows nothing about Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #11
I said nothing like that . . . markpkessinger Sep 2015 #13
So how does that excuse him as a human being from speaking with clarity? I don't get that. Bluenorthwest Sep 2015 #14
I have not "excused" anything . . . markpkessinger Sep 2015 #15
"Breathe of fresh air." Goblinmonger Sep 2015 #17
 

Warren Stupidity

(48,181 posts)
1. I like the excuse that the pope has no clue and that his repulsive utterances are all mistakes.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:34 PM
Sep 2015

But I don't buy it. He knew exactly what he was saying and his defense of Davis fits right in line with the RCC's legal efforts to establish religious privilege exemptions in the courts in this country. So no. He isn't ignorant. It wasn't a trick question. His statement is completely in line with RCC actions and policies.

markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
3. Good points all, and you very well may be right . . .
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:41 PM
Sep 2015

. . . I don't mean to suggest that the Pope might not be just a run-of-the-mill bigot on this particular subject, or that he might not be using this subject to promote the aims of his own institution. My real point was that while I may well disagree, and vehemently, with him on some of these issues, that doesn't, to me at least, mean I have to entirely vilify the man.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
7. You're right, this is the very first time he's said or done something negative about LGBT rights.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:47 PM
Sep 2015

Oh, wait...

mnhtnbb

(31,388 posts)
5. Not Catholic priests. Episcopalian priests can marry and the Episcopalian church
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:45 PM
Sep 2015

supports marriage equality.

The fact that several mainstream Christian denominations support marriage equality is not well known or
understood. The Pope doesn't speak for all Christians any more than Kim Davis does--despite her
insistence that she has a direct line to God.


markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
8. Married men can be, and are, ordained to the priesthood in Eastern rite Catholic Churches . . .
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:02 PM
Sep 2015

. . . that is to say, churches in Eastern Europe and central Asia that are in full communion with and under the jurisdiction of the See of Rome, but whose liturgical tradition is that of the Eastern Orthodox churches. Prior to the 11th C., both the western (Roman) tradition as well as the eastern Greek/Byzantium tradition ordained married men. IN both traditions, bishops must be unmarried. The Orthodox churches still follow that practice, but there's a catch: married men can be ordained priests, but priests who were unmarried at the time of ordination must remain unmarried. The Eastern Catholic churches are permitted to continue to follow that practice, even though they are under the Pope's jurisdiction.

The celibacy requirement in the West arose primarily because, in the middle ages in Europe, there was no legal provision for institutional ownership of church property. The local parish church was considered the property of the local parish priest. As priests and bishops, married or not, began siring children all over the place, in order to prevent church property from passing to the heirs of a priest, celibacy was introduced as a requirement for priests and bishops. (If a priest had no heir when he died, his parish property would become the property of his bishop.) The theological arguments in support of priestly celibacy were largely after-the-fact rationalizations.

PeaceNikki

(27,985 posts)
4. Francis is not a dumb nor ignorant man. I assure you he's well informed.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 06:43 PM
Sep 2015

Your implication that he's couples clueless is laughable.

markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
9. I don't presume to know that he is or isn't clueless . . .
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:04 PM
Sep 2015

. . . as I said in another post above, my main point was that even though I vigorously disagree with him on this issue, I simply don't have any need to vilify the man entirely.

Response to markpkessinger (Original post)

LostOne4Ever

(9,288 posts)
10. So you think he didn't know all the details right?
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:26 PM
Sep 2015

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Did the pope have all the details when he said this?[/font]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/pope-francis-on-abortion-and-homosexual-marriage[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]He wrote: “In the coming weeks, the Argentine people will face a situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family. . . .

“At stake is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother, and children. At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts.”

Cardinal Bergoglio continued: “Let us not be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan. It is not just a bill (a mere instrument) but a ‘move’ of the father of lies who seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

The cardinal also noted that “today the country, in this particular situation, needs the special assistance of the Holy Spirit to bring the light of truth on to the darkness of error, it need this advocate to defend us from being enchanted by many fallacies that are tried at all costs to justify this bill and to confuse and deceive the people of good will.”

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]What about this:[/font]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/02/21/pope-transgender-people-are-like-nuclear-weapons[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]According to the National Catholic Reporter, he said: “Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings.

“Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.”

“With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator.

“The true custody of creation does not have anything to do with the ideologies that consider man like an accident, like a problem to eliminate.

“God has placed man and woman and the summit of creation and has entrusted them with the earth.

“The design of the Creator is written in nature.”

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Or here:[/font]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/06/pope-slovakia-referendum_n_6630876.html[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Speaking at his weekly general audience on Wednesday, the pope said: "I greet the pilgrims from Slovakia and, through them, I wish to express my appreciation to the entire Slovak church, encouraging everyone to continue their efforts in defense of the family, the vital cell of society."

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Or how about here:[/font]


[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/pope-francis-suggests-gay-marriage-threatens-traditional-families[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]“The family is threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage, by relativism, by the culture of the ephemeral, by a lack of openness to life,” Francis said at a Mass in Manila. “These realities are increasingly under attack from powerful forces, which threaten to disfigure God’s plan for creation.”

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Or what about the other day[/font]

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/09/24/pope-basis-of-marriage-being-called-into-question/[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]“I cannot hide my concern for the family, which is threatened, perhaps as never before, from within and without,” Francis said. “Fundamental relationships are being called into question, as is the very basis of marriage and the family. I can only reiterate the importance and, above all, the richness and the beauty of family life.” - See more at: http://www.washingtonblade.com/2015/09/24/pope-basis-of-marriage-being-called-into-question/#sthash.huoXHKMz.dpuf

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]It is time to [font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=6 color=crimson]Stop Living in Denial[/font]. This pope is a bigot just like the last one and the one beforehand.

[font style="font-family:'papyrus','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=6 color=crimson]He has Changed Nothing and Never Intended to.[/font] He just spouts vague statements to confuse the gullible into thinking the church is changing when it is not.[/font]

markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
12. I did not, for one minute, suggest he supports, or ever would support, same-sex marriage...
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:44 PM
Sep 2015

... nor am I presuming to know what exactly he knows or doesn't know. I'm not defending his stance on the issue. I am suggesting, however, that his grasp of the issue in the context of American constitutional jurisprudence might not exactly be that of a constitutional lawyer. And if he was briefed on the issue by American bishops -- nearly all of whom were appointed by either John Paul II or Benedict XVI, and thus are all far-right clerics -- it isn't as if they would have had any interest in cluing him in to the nuances of American constitutional law. The bureaucracy of the Roman Catholic Church is vast and complex, and extends far beyond the Vatican itself. There are various sub-institutions (such as the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, for example), that often have their own agendas and political motivations that can be quite different from those of the man who happens to be sitting on the throne of St. Peter. Someone above said that the suggestion that this Pope wasn't fully aware of every aspect of the Kim Davis case is "laughable." What I think is more laughable is the notion that the Kim Davis case is so high on the Pope's list of concerns that he would have time to become fully versed on the various details of the case. It is far more likely that he relied on American clerics (most likely bishops) to brief him on the issue. Now, to be sure, it is an issue these American bishops are paying very close attention to. So any briefing bishops would have given the Pope on the issue would have come with their own political spin on it.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
11. So your theory is that he's a hapless idiot who rambles on about things he knows nothing about
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:39 PM
Sep 2015

in a reckless and misleading fashion intended to serve himself without regard to any harm to others? That's as good as any I guess.

My problem with excuses offered involving confusion and a lack of clarity is that he has a responsibility to either be clear or deal with being misunderstood he has no reason to expect my benefit of the doubt. The man he claims to be Vicar of commanded a strong and proactive honesty in all communications, attempting to allow for no confusion as to meaning, calling for simplicity and direct speech. If you are the Vicar of Christ, do as Christ told you to do, this is my advice. Cut out the spin and florid rhetoric and let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. That's my advice is that he should practice what he preaches, speak without artifice and agenda for his master told him to speak his mind and cut the crap.

markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
13. I said nothing like that . . .
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 07:59 PM
Sep 2015

He is the head of an enormous bureaucracy that spans the globe -- a bureaucracy full of sub-institutions and rival political factions. Any person leading an organization that is as top-down hierarchical and clericalist as the Roman Catholic Church is would rely on his underlings in various countries to bring him up to speed on the specifics of a particular issue that is current in a particular country -- that is to say, his bishops. Virtually all of the bishops in this country were appointees of one of the last two popes, both of whom were notorious for elevating hard-right, reactionary priests and bishops, and deliberately overlooking those of a more intellectual bent (such as the Jesuits, Pope Francis' order, who were relegated to the status of institutional backwater under John Paul II and Benedict XVI). So the entire U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops consists, at this point, of hardline reactionary bishops. They can be expected to continue to promote their own view of issues affecting the U.S., and could certainly be expected to promote that view in any briefing they might provide to the Pope on the subject.

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
14. So how does that excuse him as a human being from speaking with clarity? I don't get that.
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 08:25 PM
Sep 2015

He says horrible things and every single time dozens of you rush to excuse them or claim they are really wonderful or perhaps 'open to interpretation' and it gets old.
I do not recall Jesus saying that cumbersome organizations excuse a person's own viper's tongue.
I like those who judge me to be at least partly in compliance with the list of rules they read to me from. Francis is not. So he can go practice until he is fit to judge others.

markpkessinger

(8,396 posts)
15. I have not "excused" anything . . .
Mon Sep 28, 2015, 08:42 PM
Sep 2015

. . . my point is that to vilify a person in his or her entirety, to dismiss the value of anything they have to say, merely because on still has sharp disagreements on some issues, is foolish and childish. There are issues on which U.S. progressives can and should make common cause with Pope Francis, even as those sharp disagreements may yet remain.

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