I dont understand why liberals started a love affair with the Pope, and now I don't understand

[La Lioness Priyanka]

why some have taken to hating him.

Yeah he is liberal on economic issues and he seems less condemn-y than his predecessors.

But, on women's issues (priesthood, abortion, birth control) and on gay rights he is as his doctrine requires him to be.

The fact that he met with Kim Davis neither surprises nor horrifies me, I really don't get why every one is so worked up.

He's not Bernie Sanders, he's still the leaders of a conservative church.

[ryan_cats]

1. I support the Pope

I support the Pope and the Catholic Church. It's not like they supported Hitler.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. lol

[pennylane100]

11. I cannot imagine why he would want a secret meeting with a bigot.

I understand that he has come out as a fairly progressive person in the pope world. I cannot, however, imagine his motives in meeting with Kim Davis. I am hoping that this is a mistake, as it leaves his visit here with a bad taste in the mouths of those who had hoped for a more enlightened church.

[underahedgerow]

55. He didn't have a secret meeting. He 'met' her in a line up meet and greet, shook her hand,

gave her a couple 1 dollar rosaries, said TWO words to her and moved on to the next person in line.

Everyone is seriously way way way over-reacting to the whole thing, geez.

[Liberal In Texas]

69. I agree...this is getting out of hand.

I'll bet that is EXACTLY how it went down.

[PassingFair]

73. That's not true, according to this article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/kim-davis-pope_560b8eeee4b0768126ffd324

snip>Rowan County clerk Kim Davis and her husband met privately with Pope Francis last Thursday
afternoon at the Vatican Embassy in Washington, D.C., for less than 15 minutes, said her lawyer, Mat Staver.

[underahedgerow]

77. Sorry, he said four words to her, not two. It was a meet and greet line up. Not a private

meeting. The lawyer is full of shit.

[PassingFair]

78. Were you there?

Did you make arrangements for her to be in the "greet line"?

[underahedgerow]

84. I've dealt with dignitaries, heads of state, celebrities and state functions of all types for many

years in all types of travel, schedule, agenda and meeting scenarios. I didn't have to be there, that's how these things work.

He was on a tight, minute by minute schedule that day that included making a major speech at 10 am, having lunch with homeless people and then getting on a jet at 4 pm. 15 minutes is the standard time for a line up meet and greet. She said herself that he said the one thing to her. That's hardly a meeting, it's a line grab.

If it had been ANYTHING else, it would have been PR'd to the high heavens by the Kimmy morons. The fact that they kept it under wraps this long can only mean it was nearly a non-event, but a carefully worded press release sends everyone on DU into a tailspin.

The reason there aren't any pictures is because that's all it was, it doesn't even seem to have been a photo op, but I can do a search to check and see if anyone else in DC has a photo with the pope that day.

[underahedgerow]

86. Nope, nothing out there, not even a Kimmy & Pope selfie.

I'm shocked.

[PassingFair]

95. The pope admits he met with her.

Last edited Thu Oct 1, 2015, 07:34 AM - Edit history (1)

But as you're obviously his social secretary, I guess you have the first hand, eyewitness information.

[REP]

2. Not liking the pope is nothing new for me

And I'm not particularly surprised to see the all the pope-love. That's how good PR is supposed to work.

[Tikki]

20. +++++...

That sums it up accurately.


Tikki

[Arugula Latte]

44. It's pretty pathetic, though, to see "progressives" falling for the RCC's PR snow job.

[mr blur]

50. ^^This^^ (nt)

[Recursion]

105. Buddhism managed it too

"Ten thousand Burmese muslims killed? Who cares! I love Brad Pitt!"

Shows what a little charisma can accomplish.

[mmonk]

3. Because of identity politics.

If he is right concerning economics, don't use that to your advantage due to the backward thinking on others. They are more important than the structural injustice of the U.S. system.

[merrily]

5. Yes, it's liberals and only liberals who seized on the words of the Pope as to the environment and

helping the poor-- no doubt because liberals are misognyists and anti GLBT.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. where did you get that from? i never said or implied any of these things.

i just don't understand why liberals expected the pope to be pro-lgbt and therefore are not horrified that he is not.

the rest is just stuff you extrapolated out of thin air

[merrily]

8. Of course your OP does not imply any of those things.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. yeah. it doesn't. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

29. and that is relevant how?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Exactly right. The Pope just expresses the views of the Catholic church,

which is resolutely medieval in its approach to issues related to gender and sexuality and shows no signs of changing any time soon. This Pope's emphasis on helping the poor and preserving the environment is also consistent with established doctrine; what's different is that he's talking about these issues in ways previous Popes have not. I applaud him for doing so, and I hope some of the wealthy greedheads and GOPers who claim to be Catholic pay attention. I also emphatically disagree with his and his church's deplorably antiquated attitudes toward women and LGTB rights. But he really hasn't come up with anything new.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

15. agreed completely.

[whathehell]

80. Neither Protestantism or Judaism recognize gay marriage

either, so it seems that 'medieval' thing isn't limited to Catholicism.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

85. Some Protestant denominations recognize same sex marriage.

Lutherans (ELCA), Episcopalians, the UCC, for example, and I think Reform Judaism might also. Some religions seem to be more medieval than others.

[whathehell]

92. Some, not most. Orthodox Judaism doesn't accept same sex marriage, Conservatism Judaism

is evenly split on the matter, while Reform Judaism does accept it.

As to Lutherans, no -- One sect accepts it, the others (Missouri Synod,etc.) does not.

Seems the medievalism is spread more broadly than originally assumed.

[Marrah_G]

9. Im glad he is speaking about the environment and economics

If he can change some minds, great. I was never fooled into thinking he would go left on social issues like equality and women's health.

The only thing that surprises me about him meeting Davis is that i am surprised his schedule allowed for meeting with such a trivial person.

[LostOne4Ever]

10. Some of us have been against him for a long time now

[font style="font-family:'Georgia','Baskerville Old Face','Helvetica',fantasy;" size=4 color=teal]Because we care about the rights and lives of everyone and are not willing to shove women, the LGBTQ community, and those dying of terminal illnesses under the bus just because he say nice things about the poor and the environment*.

Would you stop denouncing people like Rick Santorum just because he supports raising the minimum wage? Would you be supportive of people praising George Wallace on Economic issues while shoving African Americans under the bus?

The pope, is quite simply, the most powerful and influential opponent on Gender and sexual minority rights, on women's rights, on contraception, on right to death with dignity laws. He is actively harming people and we are to stay quiet?

I get the anger at the man, I get those who supported him at first before the facts came out, but I don't get those who claim to support social justice and yet still praise him now that we know that he things he has said and done. From saying gay adoption is child abuse, to calling marriage equality the work of the devil, comparing gender theory to dictators of the 20th century, to comparing transgender people to nuclear weapons, and now canonizing a man who committed cultural genocide and supporting a bigot clerk who used her government position to deny others their rights..

It makes no sense to me.[/font]


*which makes no sense without also supporting population control

[CharlotteVale]

99. Very well said.

[MellowDem]

12. You're a bit too tame...

That's like saying the Grand Dragon is only a racist because his doctrine requires him to be.

The doctrine is shit, and the Pope chooses to not only follow it, but to lead an organization based on it and promote it, continuing untold harm to millions.

The Pope gets way too much respect on DU because of religious privilege.

[el_bryanto]

13. Someone referenced identity politics above and I think that's it.

If you are a liberal Catholic or even a liberal believer in the United States it's not hard to look around and see that the loudest supporters of religion are conservative. There are plenty who argue, more or less, that to be a good and faithful believer you need to be a conservative. When someone like the Pope comes along who argues for economic liberalism, there's a strong desire to identify with that, as a prominent example of someone who is a believer but also liberal (at least on economic matters). I would imagine that the desire is even greater if you are Catholic.

On the other hand if you see no value in the Catholic Church in particular or religious belief in general, you have no interest in supporting the notion that one can be a liberal and a believer or a liberal and a Catholic. So in those cases, tearing down the Popes credentials as a liberal is a worthwhile effort. The point isn't to allow liberal Catholics or liberal believes to be comfortable where they are, but to break them away from the Catholicism or their religious belief.

Bryant

[Orrex]

16. The pope is the head of a tiny foreign state

And he enjoys fawning media coverage on-demand in every news outlet in the US, much like Donald Trump or Kim Kardashian.


Beyond that, he means nothing to me.

[JCMach1]

17. They burned one of my ancestors at the stake for having the shameless audacity to edit

the Bible.

My ancestors had to flee to Holland for their lives.

The methods may be different, but the beliefs are the same. I cannot bring myself to ever trust anything coming out of this organization.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rogers_(Bible_editor_and_martyr)

[Skinner]

18. In an enormous and diverse organization like the Catholic Church...

...change comes slowly. I do not believe that any pope -- no matter how liberal -- can or would change the actual doctrine of the Catholic Church quickly. The Pope is a political office, just like every other world leader, and I think a pope increases his chance of success by being a skilled politician. For better or worse, some amount of planning, gamesmanship, behind-the-scenes maneuvering, and rhetorical hint-dropping is necessary in order to smooth the way for the BIG CHANGE.

You can see a similar pattern with the Supreme Court's approach to marriage equality -- they signaled where they were headed, then they gave the country many years to get used to the idea. When the decision was finally handed down, nobody was particularly surprised by it. In fact, it seemed inevitable and right.

So I think many of us hear the rhetoric coming from Pope Francis, and saw some of the shuffling of cardinals and whatnot, and we saw this pattern of signaling a possible change on gay rights in the future.

The meeting with Kim Davis seems to go against the direction he was signaling on gay rights -- toward greater respect and less judgment ("who am I to judge?&quot -- so it is not surprising that people are disappointed. It disappoints me, too.

Having said that, I'm not sure that meeting with Kim Davis means he has no intention of changing church doctrine on gay rights. The truth is that none of us knows where he hopes to eventually end up. But if he does want to change church teaching on homosexuality, the meeting with Kim Davis might actually be a shrewd political move -- a signal to conservatives that if the church teaching on homosexuality does change, they will be able to remain somehow as conscientious objectors within the church. Throwing them a bone like that would make an all-out revolt less likely I think.

But as I said, we don't know where all this is heading. Someday we may be able to look back and make sense of it.

[yardwork]

33. This is thoughtful. I think that abortion is a far bigger issue to the Church.

The pope's comments about conscientious objection are very much in line with current lawsuits from Catholic organizations seeking exemptions to ACA requirements to provide birth control to employees. There is a long-standing concern on the part of Catholic hospitals about abortion and birth control.

The gay rights issue kind of wandered into the Church's far more focused concern about abortion, in my opinion. While there may be evolving going on in the Vatican about gay rights, there is none whatsoever about abortion.

[Skinner]

46. I agree that there is no reason to expect any change in Catholic teaching on abortion.

The connection you make between conscientious objection and the church position on ACA is insightful. I think you might be right.

[AlbertCat]

47. In an enormous and diverse organization like the Catholic Church...

Uh oh....


a corporation too big to fail!


Shouldn't exist.

[Retrograde]

64. Beautifully put. He's the captain of an ocean liner

trying to set a slightly new course, but having to work with the crew put in place by his successors who still want to go somewhere else.

If I could pick one thing in addition to climate change for him to work on it would be a reconsideration of the RCC's stance on birth control as a first step to recognizing women as full human beings. But it is so ingrained in the hierarchy - I heard priests at the parish level lamenting how it's all women's fault that the pews are empty and that women are selfishly choosing more glamorous lives than those in convents - that it's going to take a lot to shift the dinosaurs.

[Lordquinton]

97. Read what you just wrote here

"a first step to recognizing women as full human beings."

Why are we even legitimizing an organization that we know does not treat woman as full humans? We don't want help from those kinds of people. It's great we don't have to worry about the RCC on issues of climate change, but it stops there.

[Goblinmonger]

89. But that assumes that the current pope is even slightly liberal.

Nothing he has said of any substance is one iota different from the previous two popes. Many of us on here have been saying that only to be dismissed because this guy is different. How? Even the evil Pope Ratzy said EXACTLY the same thing about helping the poor that this guy does. He wrote a book about it.

When you get to other progressive values like women's rights, abortion, gay rights, the new pope is all the bigot of the old pope. Has been for some time.

[whatthehey]

19. I doubt too many have started hating him

My own loathing and revulsion for any powerful organization which insists on perpetuating poverty, broodmare slavery for women, disease, overpopulation and death among the world's less fortunate simply because they want as many future tithers as possible and to not lose the breeding race with Islam, when they could do sterling work to prevent the above in 5 minutes by endorsing contraception, is certainly not of recent origin for example. Neither is it derived from Frankie Photo-Op's sly cultural and media manipulation. I didn't just notice in the last year that the church and its head were bigoted, corrupt and regressive to the core.

I think what changed, and is causing the more visible backlash that you are seeing, is that hordes of otherwise progressive DUers have bought the bullshit and think he's dreamy and different because he looks more avuncular than Benny Hitlerjugend and says a few contradictory and vague nice things about the poor and the environment (while doing his best to multiply the former and fuck the latter with the same stone). If any poster here said a fraction of the things he has about marriage equality or choice they'd be drummed out immediately, and yet he is lionized and can do no wrong to many here. You can't expect such cognitive dissonance and galling support for an avowed opponent of any decent human civilization to go unnoticed and unrefuted.

[Laughing Mirror]

32. My sentiments exactly

Every word you wrote.

Thank you.

[haikugal]

34. Very well said..

Thank.You!!

[Arugula Latte]

45. I agree completely.

And any "progressive" who continues to put their money in the RCC's collection plate and their asses in the pews of its churches is helping perpetuate a culture of misogyny and homophobic hate.

[PeaceNikki]

90. Yup. Amen and Hallelujah to this subthread.

[trotsky]

75. Brilliant. Thank you.

"Benny Hitlerjugend" - Oh snap!

[Small Accumulates]

82. Brilliantly said

Thank you!

[rug]

83. That's true. Many have hated him for a long time and always will.

Regardless.

[Codeine]

100. "Frankie Photo-Op's sly cultural and media manipulation. . ."

Damn! Well said!!

[jwirr]

21. Not a Catholic here. But I think I can understand some of

the hype. For years - since raygun - the church has been sinfully silent about the economic issues. Prior to that many were very vocal on how poverty effects people.

Then along comes the rw churches and they take over without a shot fired. It appears that the total message of the church is hate, anti-welfare, etc. It appears that way because they effectively used the media to get their new prosperity gospel message out. (Same with the issue of hate.)

And for those of us who did not follow the rw churches we were always asked "Why don't you do something about it?" The answer is simple - we do in our own churches but we have no influence in other denominations. It is not as if we are just another state of the union. We are separate.

In listening to the Pope I recognize that he is not working to change his churches doctrine regarding all the things we would like him to change but he is going back to a message that has been absent since the 80s. And he is mostly addressing this message to his own church members. Put he is also challenging the rw churches on this issue. An issue that no one else has challenged them on. He is the first Pope to take this step since raygun. It is a step in the right direction.

[Nay]

107. I agree with this assessment, plus I'd add that the liberals who are lauding the Pope's

bashing of capitalism, demands that the poor and elderly be taken care of, etc., are happy that the RW religionists of all the churches (including the RCC, which has plenty of very conservative "I've got mine, and fuck you" types) are getting a poke in the eye by the Pope. I have some in-laws who are rabid RCC and they needed that jab. It probably won't change them, but ya gotta start somewhere.

[restorefreedom]

22. i don't hate him

But i will no longer spend my time on this board defending him. How many children with cerebral palsy, how many old people dying of cancer, how many quadriplegics did he not go and visit so that he could spend time with this woman and her bigoted agenda? And as soon as she bragged about it, she and her Fundy friends won't waste any time stabbing the Catholics in the back the next time they disagree with them about climate change or anything else. They don't even think Catholics are real Christians. he had a pretty good momentum and presentation. and now he allowed himself to be used as a prop by a bunch of bigots and wasted his time.

that's all i have to say about him anymore.

[Hortensis]

23. I believe Francis is a very, very good man and that humanity got really lucky with him.

I know half of humankind are women. I have never in my life said, "I'm not a feminist, but..." I have always been a feminist. That said, I can accept certain realities.

One is that it is possible for someone to not share my ideology entirely, and even do what I feel is harm following his own ideology, and still be a good person. A second is that neither people nor the world we have to deal with will ever be perfect; I must accept less than I would want of others or despise all humanity without exception.

Third, literally most of the women in this world are struggling just to keep doing from one day to the next and keep their children alive, many of them in what is or amounts to slavery. Pope Francis is working far harder than anyone on this board ever has or will to uplift and improve the wellbeing of nearly 5 billion women and children - and he's making a real difference.

He's done all he can for women who've had abortions by saying priests can grant them forgiveness. That's extremely controversial and a really big deal.

Homosexuality is not supported, but Francis instructs that homosexuals should be accepted with kindness.

As for birth control, one bishop described him as "wildly practical," illustrated by Francis's comment to reporters on a plane that Catholics shouldn't feel doctrine requires them to breed "like rabbits." He knows very well that most Catholics, including priests, support the use of birth control; and if he has not approved birth control because of its connection to the most deeply held precepts of the church on family and purpose, he notably does not speak out against it. That's a BIG thing too.

On and on as he works to accomplish as much as possible in the years we will have him.

BTW, only certain types of people, liberal or conservative, are prone to idolatry and hate of public figures they disagree with, and fortunately they're a minority of humanity. Most of us have far better vision and judgement.

[geek tragedy]

24. my thoughts upon the announcement that he was elected pope

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2500800

[AngryAmish]

25. It just plain amuses me.

AA=amused

[Baitball Blogger]

27. I support the Pope's economic message, as I support the criticism

that he will receive for his position on gay and women rights. It's well deserved.

Davis isn't even a Catholic. The Pope would be smart to learn the different variations of Christianity in the U.S. before he goes out on a limb like that, since we have more than a few who don't even believe in science.

What a quagmire of human complication we are dealing with in modern times.

[AuntPatsy]

30. Not surprised or shocked, It's who he is...

[PufPuf23]

35. The Pope is a smorasbord for identity politics.

I agree with you LLP.

The world will be a better place the more the Vatican declines and Vatican assets become art and architecture museums IMHO.

[cally]

36. Because income inequality and climate change are critical

and this Pope will make a difference on these issues. i never expected this Pope to support gay marriage or abortion rights but American Catholics have ignored Catholic teachings on these issues for decades. But the right has co-opted Christianity and allowed voices on climate change and income inequality be silenced based on social issues. This Pope is raising these issues to the forefront of national attention.

If I was a political operative for a major corporation, I would immediately bring up the anti-gay rights and anti-women's equality of the Catholic Church over and over. Return the focus to these issues to silence voices on income inequality and the crisis of climate change. It divides us and prevents us from making coalitions that can affect change. We can join together on the issues we do agree on and make change.

Focusing on social issues is a right wing tactic. I don't think the Catholic Church teachings on birth control or GLBT rights is important to most of us including many American Catholics.

[NYC Liberal]

40. Equal rights are intrinsticly tied to economic issues.

You cannot claim to be great on income inequality and then oppose women's rights.

Issues like abortion and birth control, and same-sex marriage, have substantial economic facets.

[cally]

76. Yes...I'm not an idiot

about these issues. I just don't require purity in someone's views to witness and value substantial progress in an institution. There is not one national politician or famous current religious figure that I agree with all the time but I do appreciate and value those who are moving forward.

[deutsey]

37. There are some things I agree with him on

others I don't.

I welcome his unflinching critique of capitalism and his call to take action on climate change.

I don't agree with him on gay marriage, abortion, women clergy, etc.

I'm not a Catholic, so I guess I'm not personally invested in him as a religious leader. However, I'll take him swaying the minds of millions around the world when it comes to doing something about climate change and the ravages of capitalism.

[Lordquinton]

62. And his "swaying the minds of millions around the world"

when it comes to women and LGBTQIA's rights?

[deutsey]

74. Obviously, I don't agree with that

That doesn't negate the influence in things I do agree with.

[Lordquinton]

96. So you're fine with the poison pill he brings?

I mean, over half the world's population is included in e "negative" aspects, but it's not the male half. Not the straight male adult half at least.

[deutsey]

98. Yes, in your black-and-white way of seeing things

Yes I am.

For those of us not in that dichotomy, not so much.

[Lordquinton]

103. It's not black and white, it's the straight white males

once again throwing everyone else under the bus.

You seem to have created this fiction that Frank is a "good man" because he aligns with you on one or two issues... mostly... and choose to ignore literally everything else about him.

You read this quote from him before?

“One time, I heard a father in a meeting with married couples say, ‘I sometimes have to smack my children a bit, but never in the face so as to not humiliate them,’” Francis said.

“How beautiful!” Francis continued. “He knows the sense of dignity! He has to punish them but does it justly and moves on.”

Link

Still think he's a good man?

[gwheezie]

38. The pope is a catholic

He didn't say anything that contradicts catholic doctrine on any issue. I didn't expect him to. The only kinda new thing was trying to get more of us sinners to return to the church. People claim he was political and interfering in American politics. He was political but it was about the Vatican he was representing not liberal or conservative. He's a likeable guy compared to Benedict but he's not a liberal.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

41. agreed completely. i too think he is a likeable old man, and much like other likeable old men

is a bigot. a kind bigot but a bigot.

[0rganism]

39. paraphrasing Fiddler On The Roof...

God bless and keep the Pope
Far away from us!

[mhatrw]

42. Who knew that the Pope was Catholic?

We can strongly agree with the Pope on some issues (economic injustice and climate change) while strongly disagreeing with the Pope on other issues (gay rights and reproductive freedom).

It's not that hard. Why does everything have to be so personality driven?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

43. i actually get the personality part, he is far more likeable than the one before him

who just seemed like a douche.

however, i dont understand why people are surprised that the pope behave in concordance with catholic policy

[mhatrw]

48. I don't either. NEWSFLASH: The Catholic Church has been

wrong about reproductive freedom and gay rights for over a thousand years!

OK. What else is oid?

[treestar]

65. and that was accepted by most of the populace

as they way to be up until the 1960s.

Now even Catholics don't obey those rules. How many do you think use birth control? There's no way they don't.

[whatthehey]

61. Funny, don't see such huge DU support for KKK members who are pro-union,

or homophobes who are against the death penalty, or Operation Rescue organizers who want to tax the rich, or indeed any other willing mouthpieces for vile and hateful organizations who might have a reasonable opinion on other issues.

Why is Frankie Photo-Op an exception? Oh yeah - IOKIYAC

[kelliekat44]

49. I don't understand the hoopla either. It would have been more surprising had he not met with Kim.

[Zorra]

51. Clue #1: Report: 594 LGBT people murdered in Americas during 15-month period

A report the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights released on Wednesday indicates anti-LGBT violence claimed the lives of at least 594 people in the Western Hemisphere between Jan. 1, 2013, and March 31 of this year.

More than half of these reported deaths during this 15-month period took place in Brazil. These include an 8-year-old boy in the state of Rio de Janeiro who was allegedly killed by his father in February because he was “unable to accept his homosexuality.”

The report indicates that 29 LGBT people in Honduras, which has the world’s highest per capita murder rate, lost their lives during the 15-month period. The commission also notes 27 LGBT Americans were killed.
snip----
The commission expressed concern that many countries throughout the Americas do not adequately track incidents of anti-LGBT violence. It also highlighted “severe underreporting” of police abuse based on a person’s sexual orientation and/or gender identity and expression.

http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/12/20/report-594-lgbt-people-murdered-americas-15-month-period/

Nothing like the leader of a major religion, in the flesh, spreading more of "teh hate" to make sure the body count stays up, ain't that right?


(Lyrics posted below video)

In The Flesh

So ya
Thought ya
Might like to
Go to the show.
To feel that warm thrill of confusion,
That space cadet glow.
I've got some bad news for you sunshine,
Pink isn't well, he stayed back at the hotel
And they sent us along as a surrogate band
We're gonna find out where you folks really stand!

Are there any queers in the theater tonight?
Get them up against the wall!
There's one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me,
Get him up against the wall!
That one looks Jewish!
And that one's a coon!
Who let all of this riff-raff into the room?
There's one smoking a joint,
And another with spots!
If I had my way,
I'd have all of you shot!

~Roger Waters

(Please don't hide my post, the song is sarcasm, meant to mock bigots of all kinds)

[beam me up scottie]

52. The pope compared gender theory to Nazi propaganda ... but he seems nice.

Pope likens 'gender theory' to Nazi propaganda

[Zorra]

71. Imagine if the Pope had tea, and a little chat, with a public figure KKK member.

The Democrats who are telling us he's such a swell fella right now because, well, "Hey, ya know? It's just teh gays he's discriminating against, hehheh, winkwink", would be screaming bloody murder and calling for the Pope's head on a pike.

I'm just pointing this out to illustrate out how LGBT are really still considered not quite really human second class citizens, not worthy of equality, dignity, and respect in the eyes of so many who believe themselves to be enlightened Democrats.

Maybe we can judge it to be a manifestation of "Straight Privilege"? Or maybe it's just a manifestation of plain old homophobia and transphobia.

Whatever it is, I wish people realize it's just as evil for the Pope to discriminate against LGBT (and women, for that matter) as it would be for him to discriminate against any and every other minority, and there are no excuses.

It's totally not at all cool, or just, to excuse and justify the hate because it's "just teh gays" being hated, or because it is the Pope spreading the hate.

The Catholic Church has done significant harm, including murder, torture, enslavement, and imprisonment, to millions of people in the past 1700 or so years, including, and especially, LGBT. And Junipero "The Whipmaster" Serra is now a saint? Who will Francis canonize next, Hernan Cortez, another "heroic" aggressive oppressor and enslaver of thousands of First Nations people?

[beam me up scottie]

72. The double standard and privilege here is sickening.

It's not a big deal, Zorra, because what he says doesn't affect us.

At all.

No, really.

[gollygee]

101. I wouldn't count on that

The people willing to throw LGBT people under the bus seem to be the same people willing to throw women and people of color under the bus. They might be OK with him meeting with a KKK member too. He would be "building bridges" or something. What did people say when Sanders spoke at Liberty University? I can't remember exactly but I expect we'd hear very much the same kind of stuff.

[JI7]

53. i think people were hoping this pope actually wasn't anti gay

In his personal feelings/beliefs and that he was going to try to work within the catholic church environment to get more support and acceptance for gays.

For me the pope is similar to most others do i didn't have any expectations .

[La Lioness Priyanka]

54. i guess you're right. and i think skinner made a similar point upthread.

[The Wielding Truth]

56. Is it a fact that the Pope met with Davis?

[el_bryanto]

59. Yes - it has been confirmed. nt

[bigwillq]

57. K and R

I agree.

He can meet with anybody he wants to.
It doesn't bother me at all.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

58. I neither love him nor hate him.

He's done some good things, for which I praise him, and some bad things for which I condemn him.

The same thing I do with all public figures, really. Praise them when they do good in hopes that they'll do more good, castigate them when they do bad, in hopes that they'll do less of that.

[KamaAina]

60. Because he's a significant step up from Hitlerjugend Ratzinger.

But, as you say, he's still the leader of a conservative church.

[treestar]

63. Yes or blind rage when someone does not agree with

me 100% of the time - I could not handle that. Of course the Pope is old fashioned on social issues. But the average Catholic doesn't even follow that most of the time - how many of them use birth control, have sex before marriage or are even gay? Many. Most people are no longer shunned for living together before they get married, etc.

[Bluenorthwest]

67. Uh, the average Catholic is not American. Uganda is 44% Catholic, 13% of Uganda reports using a

condom at least once, 7.2% of the population has HIV, 63,000 died of AIDS last year. It's really not all about the affluent American who wants to subject others to rules they refuse for themselves, is it?

[Bluenorthwest]

66. Because people have been trying to use him as a litmus test for progressives, demanding that we

bow to an anti gay activist and anti choice crusader. Some asshole on DU posted that only 'Neo Liberals' don't care for the Pope. That is unacceptable bigotry, it is McCarthyist shit.

That's why. People wanted to drag that nasty dogma into this Party and call it progressive. He's anti choice and anti gay, he is not a progressive.

[Phentex]

91. just

[yuiyoshida]

68. I am not worked up over the Pope

I am Buddhist. I don't care for Kim Davis, as she was physically interfering in two people's happyness, Gay and Lesbian. Governor Huckabee turned it into a Circus, as did Ted Cruz, both for their benefit in running for President of the United States. Someone called Davis a grifter, like Sarah Palin, and that fits her very well.

[LynneSin]

70. I don't hate the guy. So what if someone brought Kim Davis in there to meet him.

He met with several people I do not like including a few GOP politicians. I'm sure he was polite, that's what Popes do. I also highly doubt he knew much about who she was and surely he didn't ask for an audience with her.

I am a Christian but non-practicing. I feel my church is the world around me and the faith I have with me. I do not need to sit in a building once a week to prove I am a Christian, I just try to live by the words of Jesus (and we're talking Gospels) everyday.

I know there are things about the Pope I disagree with but as I told one Catholic, I can sometimes respect - like his stance on abortion. I know that he opposes abortion but he's one of the few people I will truly call pro-life because he is also against wars and the death penalty. And the fact that he also wants us to do a better job of supporting the poor means that he cares about life from beginning to end. So for that I'll let him slide on his stance on abortion - he's not asking anyone to protest outside of clinics or kill doctors that work in them, that's not his thing.

I'm thinking that his stance on the LGBT issue is not as harsh as previous popes. He hasn't come out pro-LGBT but he's not hard-line against either. I know about the hard-line anti-LGBT cardinal he demoted and that was actually a big deal. I think for him it's more of a 'non-issue' as in, why waste time on this when their are people hungry around the globe and our climate is rapidly changing. Getting the Catholic Church to not care/be indifferent about this issue at least is better than hard-line against it.

But what I do like is that he cares about issues that I do care about which is fighting for income equality, better treatment of our immigrants and climate change. The Pope has a powerful platform and millions of followers around the globe. I respect that he wants to get this message out there and glad that he is on our side with these issues. I would not suddenly throw him under the bus because of Kim Davis, that would be deciding I didn't want to be an Philadelphia Eagles fan anymore because they had Tim Tebow on the team for a few weeks.

I'm still glad I was a volunteer in Philly for when Pope Francis was here but my main reason for volunteering was just meeting so many people around the Globe. That was an amazing experience in itself, I wasn't really that interested in seeing if I could meet the Pope, hell I was more interested the previous weekend to see if I could meet Robert Plant (ended up meeting neither- oh well).

[Scootaloo]

79. As I said before - He's an 18th-century man in charge of a 16th-century organization

He's very progressive for a pope.

I don't think anyone is going to expect the Vatican to become San Francicso. It's realky one of those "all things considered..." situations

[MADem]

81. The legacy of the Berrigan brothers, and Robert Drinan, I suspect.

Years ago--in the Vietnam era, particularly--the Catholic Church was at the forefront of the social justice movement.

The people who remember "that" Roman Catholic Church are senior citizens now, or pushing the envelope on that demographic. They vote, they remember. They're hoping that old Frank will give the church a push in the right direction--back to working on those issues, less about greasy bishops and cardinals, eating large meals, farting through silk, finger wagging and shaming, from their gilded mansions.

They want to see priests and nuns on the barricades, like the 'good old days,' -- not in limosines!

Look who marched with Martin...!
http://globalsistersreport.org/news/selma-effect-catholic-nuns-and-social-justice-50-years-21201
?itok=Wv_MWk0C

Answering Dr. Martin Luther King's call for support from the religious community, nuns join the protests in Selma, Alabama, on the third Selma-to-Montgomery march, March 21-25, 1965. (© Bob Adelman / CORBIS)


?itok=JyI59UV2

Catholic sisters join clergy in the March 10, 1965 march in Selma, Alabama. The marchers walked for less than a block before police stopped them. Pictured from left to right are Sr. Roberta Schmidt, CSJ, Sr. Antona Ebo, FSM, Sr. Rosemary Flanigan, CSJ, and Sr. Eugene Marie Smith, FSM. (© Bettmann / CORBIS)


I think the Pope and his organization have a LONG way to go before they meet the floor requirements of being reasonable in the eyes of the modern world. Of course, a huge chunk of the world isn't yet terribly modern--there's scarcity and want all over. That's how they're able to continue to press a kinda backward agenda.

I think they'll catch up eventually--or they'll fade into oblivion. I think they enjoy too much hubris to go gently into that good night, so they'll adjust--kicking and screaming, maybe, but they'll adjust!

[ileus]

87. He hates all things republican, (except religion and abortion)

so he's kinda the enemy of our enemy....thus we can overlook a few flaws if he keeps holding their foot to the fire.

[ananda]

88. I don't hate the pope.

I hate his interference in matters that should
remain outside the auspices of the church.

That is why separation of church and state
is so important.

[Agnosticsherbet]

93. The Pope is an ally in dome important issues.

On others, he is an opponent.

I think some thought his stand on economics and global warming made him "one of us."

When he reveals an issue where he takes a stand not acceptable, he becomes the enemy.

There is often a your with us or against us mentality.

[pnwmom]

94. Bernie Sanders recognizes him as a strong ally

on many important issues.

But you are right -- there is an awful lot of black and white thinking on DU. People seem to be viewed as all good or all evil -- and yet all people are flawed.

[kwassa]

102. I like the Pope.

Speaking as somewhat of a Christian, I think he is emphasizing the right things about Christianity. To my mind, he is the only Pope in my lifetime to do this.

His ability to change the church is limited, and Skinner did a good analysis of this. Francis is doing the right things within the huge constraints he is under.

Pope Francis is in the real bully pulpit, and much of what he does had powerful symbolic importance. He is about the essence of the faith, not about the institution of the church. What remains to be seen is how much he can change the structure of the Vatican, which has been staffed by conservatives under the past two Popes. It is not unlike changes when our nation goes from Democrats to Republicans, or vice versa. He is trying, and I give him credit for that.

[akbacchus_BC]

104. I really like Pope Francis, he is for humanity!

He cannot change the Catholic Church policy but he is trying. Glad his time in Cuba and in the US was an overwhelming success.

[MFM008]

106. My problem is this

I believe Francis missed meeting a lot of deserving people that didnt get to see him and she did, why her?

I also knew how a narrow minded twit like Davis would think that he sanctioned HER beliefs and actions, which she said already.

He needs either a new scheduler or PR people.