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packman

(16,296 posts)
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:01 PM Nov 2015

Just how bad the TPP is - guaranteed profits on EXPECTATIONS of profits

Banks and other financial institutions would be able to use provisions 43oOnEoin the proposed Trans-Pacific Partnership to block new regulations that cut into their profits, according to the text of the trade pact released this week.
In what may be the biggest gift to banks in a deal full of giveaways to Hollywood, the drug industry and technology firms, financial institutions would be able to appeal any national rules they didn’t like to independent, international tribunals staffed by friendly corporate lawyers.
—That could nullify a proposal by Hillary Clinton to impose a “risk fee” on financial firms — or the Elizabeth Warren/Bernie Sanders plan to reinstate the firewall between investment and commercial banks
language in the TPP could be directed to target American financial laws and regulations.

In prior deals, financial services providers were limited to making ISDS challenges based on discrimination — where foreign companies were subject to more stringent rules than their domestic counterparts — or an illegal “taking” of their investments. These types of challenges have been largely unsuccessful in ISDS tribunals.

But now, for the first time, financial institutions could make an ISDS claim based on not receiving a “minimum standard of treatment.” This is the most flexible type of claim. “Over time, tribunals have interpreted this to mean that the company gets compensation if the change in policy disappoints their expectations of future profits,” said Lori Wallach of Public Citizen’s Global Trade Watch.

In other words, a company can state it "expected" to get billions-but shit happens and they didn't - so an international tribunal can award them that phantom money. A movie bombs overseas or an overseas movie bombs here and they still make money. Count me in - I've got some crap to sell overseas worth millions.

http://extragoodshit.phlap.net/index.php/tpp-trade-pact-would-give-wall-street-a-trump-card-to-block-regulations/#more-324923

116 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Just how bad the TPP is - guaranteed profits on EXPECTATIONS of profits (Original Post) packman Nov 2015 OP
K&R for exposure 2naSalit Nov 2015 #1
Sigh. Again? randome Nov 2015 #2
You need to read what is posted. fasttense Nov 2015 #43
This "Trade Deal"- ruffburr Nov 2015 #3
Hyperbole much? VanillaRhapsody Nov 2015 #77
Denial much? nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #85
They KNOW a Dem will be in the WH, dixiegrrrrl Nov 2015 #4
Yes, that's something I posted here earlier. polly7 Nov 2015 #5
What the hell is an "International Tribunal" anyway? packman Nov 2015 #6
United Nations and WTO. Hoyt Nov 2015 #11
Wrong MFrohike Nov 2015 #35
You really need to do some research before making comments like that. Hoyt Nov 2015 #51
You should read your links MFrohike Nov 2015 #90
Your mistake there is in somehow seeing the WTO as "competing" with TPP, which makes no sense Recursion Nov 2015 #93
Sigh MFrohike Nov 2015 #94
No, you're really just wrong there Recursion Nov 2015 #95
Nope MFrohike Nov 2015 #96
This message was self-deleted by its author Recursion Nov 2015 #97
Actually, they are related. Whether it's WTO or WB is sort of immaterial except to those who play Hoyt Nov 2015 #98
Right MFrohike Nov 2015 #109
That's like saying Medicare is not a government program because private insurance Hoyt Nov 2015 #110
What? MFrohike Nov 2015 #111
Jeez, even the NYT calls them tribunals, not to mention Senator Warren. Hoyt Nov 2015 #112
And? MFrohike Nov 2015 #113
Of course the WTO is the arbitration mechanism. Recursion Nov 2015 #88
Oh? MFrohike Nov 2015 #91
In what sense do you see it as a competing organization? Recursion Nov 2015 #92
Your description of the selection process for "judges" is incomplete BelgianMadCow Nov 2015 #59
You mean World Bank under United Nations. Hoyt Nov 2015 #60
You mean the Stiglitz who was the World Bank's Chief Economist. Hoyt Nov 2015 #61
yes. He became critical of it and isn't there anymore. n/t BelgianMadCow Nov 2015 #62
Every organization deserves criticism. Here's what Stiglitz said when pushed in interview: Hoyt Nov 2015 #63
Bush joked about international law and international lawyers daleo Nov 2015 #67
It's the WTO. The judges are appointed through a process that's gone on for 50 years Recursion Nov 2015 #89
Same dispute mechanism that 150+ countries have signed since 1959. Yet, now, it's an issue. Hoyt Nov 2015 #7
Yes, many countries want to attract jobs and investment. polly7 Nov 2015 #8
Well, the TPP has provisions that help in that respect. Hoyt Nov 2015 #9
Riiiiight. polly7 Nov 2015 #10
They do not "win" most of the time, plus thousands of potential issues are never arbitrated. Hoyt Nov 2015 #12
I don't believe you. I also don't trust one single bit that the people in poorer nations will polly7 Nov 2015 #13
Yet they beg to be part of the agreements. Clearly they are better off than before. Hoyt Nov 2015 #15
The people in those poor countries do not 'share the wealth'. polly7 Nov 2015 #17
Sure they do. Mexican workers are lining up for jobs at Audi for $8/hour vs the 50 cents Hoyt Nov 2015 #19
Because Mexican farmerS were DECIMATED by NAFTA and have polly7 Nov 2015 #21
They were the ones making 50 cents a day. In any evenr, Mexico begged Hoyt Nov 2015 #22
Ok .............. hold on. polly7 Nov 2015 #23
The TPP's arbitration courts are an abomination. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #24
So after 2500 trade agreements worldwide since 1959, the investor dispute mechanism is now an issue. Hoyt Nov 2015 #28
Yup, fasttense Nov 2015 #46
TPP helps them organize. Hoyt Nov 2015 #56
Many of those countries adopted or inherited a system of civil law. They don't know JDPriestly Nov 2015 #52
all those European countries, including England and Denmark, sign the agreements. Hoyt Nov 2015 #55
With the exception of England, I believe they are civil law countries. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #57
They sign the agreements, yielding to arbitration, which is also in EU agreements. Hoyt Nov 2015 #58
The bottom 70% of the world's population have seen large income gains in the past 25 years. pampango Nov 2015 #27
Tell that to them. I don't think they'll believe it. nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #29
Excellent post. Hoyt Nov 2015 #30
It's bullshit. nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #31
Analysis is bullshit. Fears are real. n/t pampango Nov 2015 #36
Nah. Not fears. polly7 Nov 2015 #38
Please post your analysis of global income changes. pampango Nov 2015 #39
Post em yourself. I just have articles showing how 'real' people have polly7 Nov 2015 #41
Real people have suffered and real people have benefitted. That's the conclusion of pampango Nov 2015 #47
84 people own 52% of global wealth...they have trade policies to thank for it. Rex Nov 2015 #33
We do indeed need to 'sprite the 1%'. Progressive countries do that with progressive taxation, pampango Nov 2015 #37
I wonder how much of that is due solely to China? hifiguy Nov 2015 #66
You mean their 1%-ers want in. The 99% are 100% against them. n/t eridani Nov 2015 #69
Even the lower middle class here are the greedy 1%ers to rest of world. Hoyt Nov 2015 #70
The purpose of "trade" agreements is to force poor people in rich countries to give money to-- eridani Nov 2015 #71
Ask a Mexican who was making 50 cents a day, who is now working for Audi at $8/hr Hoyt Nov 2015 #73
All the ones forced off their land by privatization of the ejidos came here eridani Nov 2015 #76
Luke Krugman says, too many people blame NAFTA for things caused by other factors. Hoyt Nov 2015 #78
Privatization of rural communal land was bloody well not caused by other factors eridani Nov 2015 #79
+1,000,000. nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #80
Exactly. polly7 Nov 2015 #81
Apparently poisoning poor people with mine tailings is done only to help them n/t eridani Nov 2015 #83
Yep, I'm sure we'll see a 'study' soon that shows us just exactly how. nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #84
This is not about trade. This is about a CORPORATE COUP. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #25
Exactly right! nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #26
+1 You nailed it. Enthusiast Nov 2015 #45
Thank you! polly7 Nov 2015 #48
Corporations lose sometimes in our courts. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #32
corporate whores can always justify corporate whoring Skittles Nov 2015 #68
Excuses are easy to make up. And that is what corporate whores do. They don't have to be GoneFishin Nov 2015 #74
You're right, Skittles. nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #82
The truth shall set you free Progressive dog Nov 2015 #14
We are going to have trade. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #18
No country would allow trade on terms that require Progressive dog Nov 2015 #34
I am very familiar with NAFTA's arbitration clause. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #54
Lot of trade stuff you oppose Progressive dog Nov 2015 #64
I am opposed to trade agreements that give power that should be exercised by JDPriestly Nov 2015 #72
Bullshit. TPP is a corporate coup. And "we" don't get shit when jobs are sent overseas unless by GoneFishin Nov 2015 #75
TPP is not a corporate coup. Progressive dog Nov 2015 #100
You are advocating precisely what FDR wanted to avoid. pampango Nov 2015 #50
And the corporations have so exploited and dominated and bullied FDR's ideal JDPriestly Nov 2015 #53
So we should give up on FDR's ideals and go back to the Coolidge/Hoover trade policy - high tariffs, pampango Nov 2015 #101
We should renegotiate all of our trade agreements to make sure they protect human rights, not JDPriestly Nov 2015 #102
I'll stick with FDR, Sweden and Germany on trade policy but I do agree that all agreements pampango Nov 2015 #103
I know what FDR wanted. I don't think it included having corporate arbitration panels JDPriestly Nov 2015 #104
The concept of neutral arbitration in trade disputes was introduced by FDR's ITO. pampango Nov 2015 #105
It is undemocratic. FDR was not all-seeing and all-knowing. JDPriestly Nov 2015 #106
You have your opinion. I'll side with FDR, Sweden and Germany. n/t pampango Nov 2015 #107
More horseshit about how TPP has something to do with "trade" eridani Nov 2015 #86
This! nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #87
More bullshit that TPP is about corporate takeover. Progressive dog Nov 2015 #99
Yes there is--which is why Canada is the most sued country in the world eridani Nov 2015 #108
And the US has won ALL the cases under NAFTA Progressive dog Nov 2015 #114
Fuck corporations suing governments for not getting the profits they expect n/t eridani Nov 2015 #116
So true, but the American people including people here on DU, are so poorly educated about JDPriestly Nov 2015 #16
I see the "but it is just like all the other trade deals" is still be thrown about. Rex Nov 2015 #20
K/R marmar Nov 2015 #40
All Made Possible By The Sell Out President And Former Secretary Of State cantbeserious Nov 2015 #42
Kicked and recommended to the Max! Enthusiast Nov 2015 #44
Great article, packman, thank you. +1000. nt. polly7 Nov 2015 #49
K & R AzDar Nov 2015 #65
The reinstitution of slavery or feudalism is the end game. hifiguy Nov 2015 #115
 

randome

(34,845 posts)
2. Sigh. Again?
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:29 PM
Nov 2015

No signatory to the treaty can pass laws that discriminate against corporations in another one of the countries. It's really as simple as that.

It levels the playing field between foreign and domestic corporations. If a country passes a law that applies to all companies regardless of nationality, there can be no claim.

This is a fundamental misreading of the admittedly dense legalese in the TPP.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"If you're bored then you're boring." -Harvey Danger[/center][/font][hr]

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
43. You need to read what is posted.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 03:07 PM
Nov 2015

It's not about foreign VS non foreign giant corporate investors. It's about banks now being able to claim their profits were lowered because a law was passed by a country and the country owes them those lost profits. End of discussion.

ruffburr

(1,190 posts)
3. This "Trade Deal"-
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:34 PM
Nov 2015

Is an open take over of the country and planet by fascists Corporations and Politicians colluding to undermine the sovereignty of each and every country involved in the TPP or the TTIP or CAFTA , Not to mention the Slave Labor connotations.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
4. They KNOW a Dem will be in the WH,
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:39 PM
Nov 2015

so are protecting their asses right now ahead of the elections.

Wow....that is astounding.

Surely there is way we can overturn some of these provisions that Obama threatens to sign in 90 days.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
5. Yes, that's something I posted here earlier.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:39 PM
Nov 2015

I can't believe that any gov't anywhere would agree to this. 'Future profits' can be applied to the balance sheet of any corporation challenging anything with these ISDS' - including issues with regard to health-care, the environment ....... anything. There will be NO protection against these challenges. The corporations who will use them have the global power already. Govt's, especially of poorer nations, will have no ability to fight them off, and their citizens will be the ones to pay - always, those most unable to afford to lose more than they already have.

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
6. What the hell is an "International Tribunal" anyway?
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:46 PM
Nov 2015

Who elects it? Where does it get its authority from? Who funds it? If it levys a fine, from whose pocket does it come from? Jesus the New World Order is really here - and I'm not a conspirator nut - but this is scary shit.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
11. United Nations and WTO.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:11 PM
Nov 2015

If a dispute goes to a tribunal -- the country picks one arbiter, the company one, and the other is by mutual agreement between the two parties.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
35. Wrong
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:21 PM
Nov 2015

Did you really claim the WTO will be involved in arbitration under the TPP? You are aware that the TPP is a violation of both the principles of the WTO, right? I guess not, since you made that ridiculous claim.

The UN has no role to play, either. I'd ask for proof of your claims, but I have no doubt none will be provided.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
51. You really need to do some research before making comments like that.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 03:57 PM
Nov 2015

First, read the dispute chapter in TPP.

Then go here: http://www.unsceb.org/content/wb

Then, go from there to get a better understanding of how the works.

I would also suggest this for basic information about ISDS.
https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/fact-sheets/2015/march/investor-state-dispute-settlement-isds

Then, research further.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
90. You should read your links
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 02:56 AM
Nov 2015

The World Bank ain't the World Trade Organization. Your Froman link has all of jack squat on the WTO as well (protip: ctrl+f is a quick tool to make sure you end up looking stupid by claiming something contains something it doesn't).

The WTO won't, can't, provide a venue for a competing organization's arbitration. It's simply stupid to make that claim.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
93. Your mistake there is in somehow seeing the WTO as "competing" with TPP, which makes no sense
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:19 AM
Nov 2015

The WTO isn't a trade bloc; it's an international organization that trade blocs use to arbitrate disputes.

The WTO was created essentially from the rubble of GATT, and GATT is still the basis for the TPP.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
94. Sigh
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:27 AM
Nov 2015

The WTO is a global trade bloc. That's why it has its own schedule of tariffs for every member on just about every conceivable product you can imagine, but it's also why it has a set of rules designed to prohibit activities that get in the way of its overarching mission: the promotion of global trade through minimal tariff barriers. Your claim that it's some clearinghouse for bloc disputes is wrong. It doesn't operate like that at all. Individual blocs do their own policing.

GATT is not the basis for the TPP. GATT stands for General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs. The TPP does not set tariff schedules in the slightest. Why? Tariff levels are already minimal. If you don't believe me, go out and buy a copy of the WTO tariff schedules (I actually own one) and see for yourself. TPP is about harmonizing rules across countries. There's a reason that the promoters of this so-called trade treaty talk about "non-economic" barriers. It's got nothing to do with GATT, nor with historic US trade policy.

The TPP is an infringement of the principles of the WTO because it's designed to favor certain countries over others through disparate application of rules. The entire point of GATT and its successor WTO was to favor no particular country in trade. It was to provide a level playing field for ALL countries, not just those willing to bargain away their citizens' interests in order to stay under the American security umbrella. You do realize that, right? TPP is a hare-brained containment policy aimed at China. Obama's clearly said it many times, when he talks about "China setting the rules." It's no damn different from Woodrow Wilson and "freedom of the seas." Given that the purpose of the WTO is to reduce the likelihood of war and the TPP is aimed at quite a different target, I'd say there's one more reason to view the TPP as an infringement of the principles of the WTO.



Note: I'm not much of a fan of the WTO, either. The rules are effectively arbitrary, due to the appeal process. Even so, it's still better than the TPP. Prudential regulation isn't inhibited under the WTO. No one can seriously say the same about the TPP.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
95. No, you're really just wrong there
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:30 AM
Nov 2015
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/whatis_e.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization

The WTO is the institutional framework nations use to negotiate and adjudicate trade agreements for the past 20 years.

The TPP does not set tariff schedules in the slightest.

Oh lord.

https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/trans-pacific-partnership/TPP-Full-Text

Read that. There's about 2000 pages of tariff schedules in it.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
96. Nope
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:50 AM
Nov 2015

The WTO is a bloc like any other. It's just bigger than the rest. The fact you cherry-picked one line out of your citations just shows you didn't actually read them very closely. Had you, you'd have noticed that the first paragraph of BOTH links show the WTO to be more than some limp "institutional framework." I mean, you didn't even have to search for it. You could have just clicked on your links, read the first 4-5 lines of each, and said, "oh damn, it really is a global trade bloc with negotiation, adjudication, AND enforcement power."

They're not actually schedules, champ. You'd know that if you'd ever seen a schedule. That being said, they do make some adjustment to tariffs so we'll call that fair point to you.

Response to MFrohike (Reply #96)

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
98. Actually, they are related. Whether it's WTO or WB is sort of immaterial except to those who play
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 06:22 AM
Nov 2015

the nomenclature name.

WTO and WB are related:
https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/coher_e/wto_wb_e.htm

Personally, I am comfortable with a dispute organization that operates under the United Nations, World Bank/WTO. 150+ countries have proven they are too.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
109. Right
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:21 PM
Nov 2015

There's clearly no difference between a global trade bloc and a multilateral investment agency.

Again, the dispute process doesn't operate under the WTO. You'd know that if you bothered to read anything about the international arbitration process. They may use WTO rules, but that is a world away using the WTO as a venue.

For all you write on this subject, you sure don't know much about it.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
110. That's like saying Medicare is not a government program because private insurance
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 08:55 PM
Nov 2015

companies administer the program under government rules. You are really reaching.

Fact is, the tribunals are approved by 150+ countries and operate under rules from organizations founded by governments around the world.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
111. What?
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 10:47 PM
Nov 2015

Did you even read that before you wrote it? Yes, clearly the WTO and the World Bank are the same because you made a completely inane comparison to health insurance. We'll completely ignore their completely different structures and missions. They're the same because you read a paragraph on a website that said they have to work together.

Fact: calling an arbitration hearing a tribunal is clear indication that you're completely ignorant. Tribunals oversee arbitration hearings. You might know them by their other name: courts.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
113. And?
Wed Nov 11, 2015, 09:02 PM
Nov 2015

The NYT also pimped Bush's war and employs Thomas Friedman. Warren is a human being, not a god.

Again, you're arguing from ignorance.

MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
91. Oh?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 02:59 AM
Nov 2015

I wasn't aware that the WTO was in the business of enforcing the rules of competing organizations. My mistake.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
92. In what sense do you see it as a competing organization?
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:18 AM
Nov 2015
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Organization

Are you thinking of the wrong thing? WTO's entire purpose for existing is to arbitrate trade agreement disputes.

BelgianMadCow

(5,379 posts)
59. Your description of the selection process for "judges" is incomplete
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 06:31 PM
Nov 2015

"the country picks one arbiter, the company one, and the other is by mutual agreement between the two parties"

you wrote, and that is correct. But you omitted the rest - when no third arbiter can be agreed upon between the parties, the ICSID court picks the third one. So they have a kind of deciding vote.

ICSID an international organisation, and is a member of and founded by the World Bank. For anyone thinking they are impartial, I suggest reading of Stiglitz' "Free Fall".

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
63. Every organization deserves criticism. Here's what Stiglitz said when pushed in interview:
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 07:06 PM
Nov 2015

Stiglitz: The world needs an international development agency. I don't think anybody really thinks that one should get rid of the World Bank. Reform is one thing, but getting rid of it I think would be wrong." - See more at: http://progressive.org/news/2000/06/5088/interview-joseph-stiglitz#.dpuf

" Needing reform" is not same ad "it's a crooked organization with no useful function." I can't think of any organization I've worked for that didn't deserve criticism. But they all, including a state Medicaid program, were needed and positive organizations.

Fact is, World Bank, helps poor nations and is a good place to oversee dispute mechanisms.

daleo

(21,317 posts)
67. Bush joked about international law and international lawyers
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 09:49 PM
Nov 2015

But the transnational capitalist class takes international law (so-called trade treaties) very seriously when it comes to their profit seeking. War and peace, not so much.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
89. It's the WTO. The judges are appointed through a process that's gone on for 50 years
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 07:45 AM
Nov 2015

Generally the two disputants each pick a judge and then they agree mutually on a third judge.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
7. Same dispute mechanism that 150+ countries have signed since 1959. Yet, now, it's an issue.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 12:55 PM
Nov 2015

The countries sign it because they want to attract jobs and investment, and companies don't fare well in these disputes if the country is treating foreign and domestic companies the same.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
8. Yes, many countries want to attract jobs and investment.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:02 PM
Nov 2015

Look at what some of them get:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017306098

Does this sort of result not bother you at all? And it's only going to get worse - those making huge profits by using cheap/slave labour, exporting whole industries to countries forced economically to accept the terms of some of these trade agreements to the detriment of millions already suffering do not care. They have all the power. They do the very minimum demanded - sometimes not even that - and people die.



polly7

(20,582 posts)
10. Riiiiight.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:08 PM
Nov 2015

'That help'. If the country they're suing for one thing or another isn't powerful enough to have effective representation.

How many times have you seen giant corporations not win??? Anywhere, at anything?

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
12. They do not "win" most of the time, plus thousands of potential issues are never arbitrated.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:14 PM
Nov 2015

Look it up.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
13. I don't believe you. I also don't trust one single bit that the people in poorer nations will
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:16 PM
Nov 2015

benefit at all with these agreements. Check out Mexico's experience, for one. Look it up.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
15. Yet they beg to be part of the agreements. Clearly they are better off than before.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:25 PM
Nov 2015

You know what I believe -- Americans have used more than their share of the world's resources, polluted more than any other country, and now some here want to deny poor countries a chance to share in the wealth. That sounds selfish and unfair to me. American truly are greedy.

The TPP will help poor countries and the USA long-term. We are not going to prosper trading among ourselves, while not giving other countries a chance to share in the wealth. We will all be better off with a growing world economy, environmental improvements, labor improvement, international cooperation, etc.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
17. The people in those poor countries do not 'share the wealth'.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:27 PM
Nov 2015

Look it up.

And no, they are not better off !!!

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
19. Sure they do. Mexican workers are lining up for jobs at Audi for $8/hour vs the 50 cents
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:31 PM
Nov 2015

they'd make for a days work otherwise.

The TPP includes provisions that will increase wages in poor countries -- if greedy Americans allow companies to go into those countries. I'll admit it might not be good enough, but it's better than the situation before and I bet in some of the countries workers do a whole lot better than they did before. Truth is, I don't think most American opposing the agreement care about that.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
21. Because Mexican farmerS were DECIMATED by NAFTA and have
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:32 PM
Nov 2015

been forced to 'line up for jobs'. FFS. I don't feel like going back for all those links, but I will.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
22. They were the ones making 50 cents a day. In any evenr, Mexico begged
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:39 PM
Nov 2015

to be part of TPP for the good of their people, because God knows most Americans darn sure don't care about them.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
23. Ok .............. hold on.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:40 PM
Nov 2015
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101680974

Thanks to NAFTA, Conditions for Mexican Factory Workers Like Rosa Moreno Are Getting Worse

Texas Observer / By Melissa del Bosque

The difficult and dangerous working conditions that Rosa and at least 1.3 million other Mexican workers endure were supposed to get better. They didn't.



Photo Credit: Alan Pogue

December 11, 2013 |

.... On this night, Feb. 19, 2011, she couldn’t shake the feeling that something was wrong, a premonition that perhaps she shouldn’t go. But she needed the money. It was the final shift in her six-day workweek, and if she missed a day, the factory would dock her 300 pesos. She couldn’t afford to lose that kind of money. Her family already struggled to survive on the 1,300 pesos (about $100) a week she earned. Unable to shake the bad feeling, she’d already missed her bus, and now she’d have to pay for a taxi. But the thought of losing 300 pesos was worse. She had to go. Rosa kissed her six children goodnight and set out across town.

In the Mexican border city of Reynosa, the hundreds of maquiladoras that produce everything from car parts to flat-screen televisions run day and night—365 days a year—to feed global demand. Rosa worked from 10 p.m. to 7 a.m. at a factory called HD Electronics in a sprawling maquiladora park near the international bridge that links Reynosa, an industrial city of 600,000, to Pharr, Texas. Like the 90,000 or more workers in Reynosa, the 38-year-old Rosa depended on these factories for her livelihood. In the 11 years since she moved to the city, she had welded circuitry for Asian and European cell phone companies, assembled tubing for medical IV units to be shipped over the border to the United States, and worked on a production line assembling air conditioners for General Motors.

This was her second month at HD Electronics, a South Korean firm that had moved to Reynosa in 2006 to produce the metal backing for flat-screen televisions made by another South Korean firm, LG Electronics—a $49 billion corporation. LG also has a plant in Reynosa and could scarcely keep up with the North American demand for its plasma and LCD televisions.

At HD Electronics, Rosa operated a 200-ton hydraulic stamping press. Every night, six days a week, she fed the massive machine thin aluminum sheets. The machine ran all day, every day. Each time the press closed it sounded like a giant hammer striking metal: thwack, thwack, thwack. The metal sheets emerged pierced and molded into shape for each model and size of television. At the factory, 20 women, including Rosa, worked the presses to make the pieces for the smaller televisions. Nearby were 10 larger presses, each of which took two men to operate, to make backings for the giant-screen models.


Full Article: http://www.alternet.org/labor/after-20-years-nafta-thanks-nafta-what-happened-mexican-factory-workers-rosa-moreno?akid=11305.44541.10ylde&rd=1&src=newsletter939436&t=21

NAFTA Is Starving Mexico

Posted by polly7 in General Discussion
Thu Oct 20th 2011, 10:40 AM

By Laura Carlsen, October 20, 2011

http://www.fpif.org/articles/nafta_is_star...

"Since the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) became the law of the land, millions of Mexicans have joined the ranks of the hungry. Malnutrition is highest among the country’s farm families, who used to produce enough food to feed the nation.

As the blood-spattered violence of the drug war takes over the headlines, many Mexican men, women, and children confront the slow and silent violence of starvation. The latest reports show that the number of people living in “food poverty” (the inability to purchase the basic food basket) rose from 18 million in 2008 to 20 million by late 2010.

About one-fifth of Mexican children currently suffer from malnutrition. An innovative measurement applied by the National Institute for Nutrition registers a daily count of 728,909 malnourished children under five for October 18, 2011. Government statistics report that 25 percent of the population does not have access to basic food."


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/polly7/9


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002637336

Zalatix (8,994 posts)

Defenders of NAFTA might not want to hear a Mexican farmer's point of view on the subject.


http://articles.cnn.com/2008-02-01/world/mexico.farmers_1_mexican-officials-mexican-government-nafta?_s=PM:WORLD

Mexican farmers protest NAFTA

February 01, 2008|From Harris Whitbeck CNN

Hundreds of thousands of farmers clogged central Mexico City Thursday with their slow-moving tractors, protesting the entry of cheap imported corn from the United States and Canada.

On January 1 Mexico repealed all tariffs on corn imported from north of the border as part of a 14-year phaseout under the North American Free Trade Agreement, or NAFTA.

The farmers want the government to renegotiate the 1994 free trade agreement, which removed most trade barriers among Mexico, Canada, and the United States, saying livelihoods are at stake.

"NAFTA is very bad, very bad for Mexican consumers and for Mexican producers," said Victor Quintana, head of Democratic Farmers Front, which organized the protest.

The farmers complain that U.S. and Canadian grains are heavily subsidized and therefore undermine Mexican products.



http://prospectjournal.ucsd.edu/index.php/2010/04/nafta-and-u-s-corn-subsidies-explaining-the-displacement-of-mexicos-corn-farmers/
NAFTA AND U.S. CORN SUBSIDIES: EXPLAINING THE DISPLACEMENT OF MEXICO’S CORN FARMERS

The paper’s underlying hypothesis is that American corn subsidies, which led to the flooding of Mexican markets with American corn following the signing of NAFTA, is the primary factor responsible for the post-1994 internal displacement of rural farmers in Mexico. The trade agreement effectively eliminated all trade barriers and placed Mexico’s domestically produced corn in direct competition with highly subsidized corn imported from the United States. Consequently, Mexican corn farmers, who comprise the majority of the country’s agricultural sector, experienced drastic declines in the domestic price of their product and thus faced increasing difficulties to attain a sustainable living. Hence, we observe high levels of migration into Mexico’s cities in the latter half of the 1990’s, and the beginning of the 21st century, as these displaced farmers abandoned their previous livelihood in search of employment.


So not only did foreign outsourcing destroy millions of American manufacturing jobs, it also devastated Mexico's farmers.

Tell us again how free trade helped?



How NAFTA Drove Mexicans into Poverty and Sparked the Zapatista Revolt

By EDELO, Creative Time Reports

The North American Free Trade Agreement, passed 20 years ago, has resulted in increased emigration, hunger and poverty (with Video)

December 30, 2013

Mexico was said to be one step away from entering the “First World.” It was December 1992, and Mexico’s then-president, Carlos Salinas, signed the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA). The global treaty came with major promises of economic development, driven by increased farm production and foreign investment, that would end emigration and eliminate poverty. But, as the environmentalist Gustavo Castro attests in our video, the results have been the complete opposite—increased emigration, hunger and poverty.


While the world was entertaining the idea of the end of times supposedly predicted by the Mayan calendar, on December 21, 2012, over 40,000 Mayan Zapatis . tas took to the streets to make their presence known in a March of Silence. The indigenous communities of Chiapas—Tzeltales, Tzotziles, Tojolobales, Choles, Zoques and Mames—began their mobilization from their five centers of government, which are called Caracoles. In silence they entered the fog of a December winter and occupied the same squares, in the same cities, that they had descended upon as ill-equipped rebels on January 1, 1994, the day NAFTA came into effect.

In light of the 20th anniversary of NAFTA’s implementation and the Zapatista uprising, we set out to explore both the positive and negative effects of the international treaty. The poverty caused by NAFTA, and the waves of violence, forced migration and environmental disasters it has precipitated, should not be understated. The republic of Mexico is under threat from multinational corporations like the Canadian mining company Blackfire Explorations, which is threatening to sue the state of Chiapas for $800 million under NAFTA Chapter 11 because its government closed a Blackfire barite mine after pressure from local environmental activists like Mariano Abarca Roblero, who was murdered in 2009.

Still, one result of the corporate extraction of Mexico’s natural resources and displacement of its people that has followed the treaty has been the organization and strengthening of initiatives by indigenous communities to construct autonomy from the bottom up. Seeing that their own governments cannot respond to popular demands without retribution from corporations, the people of Mexico are asking about alternatives: “What is it that we do want?” The Zapatista revolution reminds us that not only another world, but many other worlds, are possible


Full Article: http://www.alternet.org/world/how-nafta-drove-mexicans-poverty-and-sparked-zapatista-revolt?akid=11347.44541.RWB6aQ&rd=1&src=newsletter941851&t=19


Drug War Mexico, NAFTA and Why People Leave

#!

Peter Watt teaches Latin American Studies at the University of Sheffield in the UK. He is co-author of the new book, Drug War Mexico, and is currently penning another with Observer journalist Ed Vulliamy about white collar crime and the Mexican 'drug war.'

http://www.zcommunications.org/drug-war-mexico-nafta-and-why-people-leave-by-peter-watt-1

Just a few of the articles posted here .......... some, long ago. Were you not aware of how the Mexican people have suffered?

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
24. The TPP's arbitration courts are an abomination.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:43 PM
Nov 2015

For me this is not just about the jobs lost in America.

It's about permitting corporations to sue for speculative damages against laws that are democratically adopted in our country and by other countries.

It's great that Mexican workers are getting better pay.

Meanwhile our trade deficit grows.

In an article by Dan Dimicco, chairman emeritus of Nucor Corporation, he says, “National income accounting makes it clear that gross domestic product is the sum of four factors: consumption, investment, government procurement and net trade (exports minus imports).That’s net trade — not gross trade. In other words, net exports increase our economic size while net imports shrink it.”

He goes on to explain, in 2013, net trade subtracted about 3% from our economy (because imports exceeded exports). This shrinkage is cumulative, compounding year after year.” In the case of America we have had trade deficits for 39 years and it is now more than an $8 trillion debt.

But why isn’t the government, Wall Street, multinational corporations, and many pundits and bloggers worried about the growing trade deficit? Why is the trade deficit largely ignored while everyone is more concerned about the federal deficit? Wall Street, the Multi-national corporations and the Obama Administration have adopted a policy of appeasement where foreign mercantilism seems to be irrelevant and attempts at balancing trade are ignored. It is as if the trade deficit is an open ended charge account that is simply an accounting summary that will never have to be paid back.

All of our trading partners (competitors) understand trade deficits and they do something about them. When Mexico agreed to eliminate a tariff on imported goods from the U.S. they immediately enacted a 15% value added tax on U.S. imports. When the countries in the CAFTA agreement dropped their tariffs, most of these countries replaced the tariffs with a 12% consumption tax on imports. In fact, 148 of our trading partners have a value added tax (VAT) or goods and service tax (GST), and they range from 2% to 27%. These are a form of a consumption tax and they are levied in a number of different ways,


http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecollins/2015/01/15/americas-trade-deficit-the-job-killer/

The arbitration court provisions make the TPP (and other trade agreements we now have to some extent) unacceptable.

But if we want to have "free" trade, we need to adopt a VAT tax (like other countries including Germany do) and, because, yes, it is regressive, compensate low-income people with other economic or financial support like paying part of their housing costs, Medicare for all, outright payments to families (German Kindergeld), or something like that.

The TPP as it is written is unacceptable. It is a CORPORATE COUP.

This is not about trade. This is about a coup.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
28. So after 2500 trade agreements worldwide since 1959, the investor dispute mechanism is now an issue.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:52 PM
Nov 2015

For some reason 150+ plus countries find them acceptable. I guess they've all been wrong for almost 60 years.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
46. Yup,
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 03:15 PM
Nov 2015

Unlike the handful of people who own most of the huge corporate giants, workers take a while to organize.

Yes, it's a shame it took so long to figure out how awful neoliberal "free" trade agreements really are. But the rich are real good with the propaganda and the horrors of unregulated capitalism take some time to filter through 7.3 billion people.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
52. Many of those countries adopted or inherited a system of civil law. They don't know
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 05:57 PM
Nov 2015

the difference.

Our legal system is derived from and similar to the British Common Law.

We have juries of our peers. Civil law systems do not place the emphasis on a jury that we do.

We have precedents and a Supreme Court.

Civil law systems may have something that sounds similar and is a bit similar but that is different enough that our system is not compatible with the civil law system.

The job of a jury in our system is to determine the facts. Then, in most cases in which there is a jury trial, the judge tells the jury how to apply law to the facts or applies the law to the facts himself or herself.

The right to a jury trial in cases involving over a certain amount of money is part of our fundamental rights. It is written into our Bill of Rights in our Constitution.

These agreements, all of them, overturn our basic tradition of a jury trial in cases in which a large verdict can be rendered.

Sooner or later, we will have a verdict brought against us, a sizable one that conflicts with a decision rendered in one of our courts. It's just a matter of time. We shall see what happens then.

And talk about environmental issues. I suspect that the entire point in this TPP is to permit large corporations to wield their massive treasuries to bully mere countries to set aside laws that protect the environment.

We already see that with the World Trade Court's decision that we cannot label meat according to country of origin if we want to trade under the applicable trade agreement.

That is an attack on environmentally sound, healthy meat production, meat production that meets FDA standards which are not necessarily met in many countries, especially underdeveloped countries. That is a particularly dangerous decision when it comes to pork. I want to know how farmers feed the hogs that become the pork I eat.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
57. With the exception of England, I believe they are civil law countries.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 06:04 PM
Nov 2015

Do you have a link suggesting otherwise?

pampango

(24,692 posts)
27. The bottom 70% of the world's population have seen large income gains in the past 25 years.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:50 PM
Nov 2015


The graph shows that top 1% and the bottom 70% have benefitted, while the income of the Western middle class has stagnated or worse. I believe that a trading system that has benefitted the poorest 70% of the world is a good one. We can go after the obscene income gains of the top 1-5% in other ways, as they do in progressive countries, and use that to help the Western middle class and the poorest 5%.

Cutting off the nose of the poorest 70% to spite the face of the 1% makes less sense. Our middle class can be helped from the excess gains of the 1% without trashing a trading system that has helped so many poor people.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
38. Nah. Not fears.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:36 PM
Nov 2015

Reality.

I've already posted just two examples.

Ignore the plight of millions who've had their lives destroyed already - that will serve you well for the future, as there will be untold millions more to come - if you don't choose to look at it, it's not happening.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
39. Please post your analysis of global income changes.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:42 PM
Nov 2015

I certainly agree there have been hardships for the global poor have occurred.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
41. Post em yourself. I just have articles showing how 'real' people have
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:47 PM
Nov 2015

Last edited Sat Nov 7, 2015, 05:35 PM - Edit history (1)

suffered. These new agreements are 'NAFTA on steroids' - common sense tells me exactly what will happen now to even more.

Your stats don't reflect reality and I don't believe in any of them, they can be adjusted to show pretty much anything.


The protest, co-sponsored by 59 organizations, is being spearheaded by Popular Resistance and Flush The TPP and includes environmental, human rights, labor, climate change and good government groups. They have been organizing this mobilization for months knowing that the TPP would be made public around this time.

At its root, the TPP is about modern colonialism. It is the way that Western governments and their transnational corporations, including Wall Street banks, can dominate the economies of developing nations,” said Margaret Flowers, co-director of Popular Resistance. She continued “The reality is that without trade justice there cannot be climate justice, food justice; there cannot be health justice or wage justice. That is why people are mobilizing to stop the TPP.”

Mackenzie McDonald Wilkins, organizer for Flush The TPP, said: “The TPP impacts every issue we care about as a result, a unified movement of movements to stop the TPP has developed. People who care about corporate power versus democracy and our sovereignty or about jobs and workers, the environment and climate change, health care, food and water, energy regulation of banks are mobilizing to make stopping the TPP their top priority.”


http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/11/mass-mobilization-to-stop-the-tpp-announced-as-text-is-released/

bbm.


And, similar to the TPP, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership is having troubles in Europe. Europeans see TTIP either not advancing or going in the wrong direction because of the heavy handedness of the U.S. The French negotiator said: “France is considering all options including an outright termination of negotiations.” More than 3 million people across Europe signed a petition calling on the European Commission to scrap the agreement and hundreds of thousands marched in Berlin on October 10 opposing the TTIP. People realize that rather than opening up new markets, since the U.S. and EU countries already trade a great deal, it will privatize public services for corporate profits.


At its root, the TPP is about modern colonialism. It is the way that Western governments and their transnational corporations, including Wall Street banks, can dominate the economies of developing nations. To be part of the TPP, governments are required to allow foreign ownership of property, including buying land in signatory countries. The TPP allows corporate trade tribunals to overrule their laws, acquire resources cheaply and provide slave wages to workers. And, if all else fails, the U.S. and allied militaries will be there to enforce agreements.

The TPP gives incredible power to foreign banks to move money in and out of countries without restrictions. It minimizes regulation of big finance to allow risk-tasking that endangers the world economy. Countries that need money will be enslaved by loans from big finance like Citigroup, and once they are in debt, they will be unable to stand up to the demands of banksters who threaten them as we witnessed recently in Greece.

The reality is that without trade justice there cannot be climate justice, food justice; there cannot be health justice or wage justice. Injustice in trade undermines all the issues the social movement is working to correct.

As a result the largest trade justice movement has developed and is growing. Be part of this cultural shift that will challenge corporate power and build the power of people.


http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/10/spread-the-word-tpp-is-toxic-political-poison-that-politicians-should-avoid/#more-60210


ISDS is the Investor-State Dispute Settlement process that is part of recent so-called trade agreements. The zealots pushing ISDS are those who worship Mammon and who seemingly are willing to sacrifice everything else on the altar of short-term greed. Specifically, ISDS is being pushed by Wall Street, transnational corporations and rich investors.

Under ISDS, if a foreign corporation/investor thinks that a government’s policy reduces its profits or expected future profits, ISDS allows the foreign investor to evade the usual judicial system. Instead, the investor can bring a nation before a hearing of a tribunal of trade lawyers. These lawyers may represent an investor in one case and be an arbitrator in another case. Public interests, such as protection of public health, the environment, buy local programs, etc. take a back seat to commercial considerations in these deliberations. Laws passed by a democratic process can be overridden and national sovereignty is out the window.

If the investor wins, the government must either change the policy or pay what can turn out to be a very substantial fee. If the state wins, there is no cost to the investor. In addition, the ISDS is even more one-sided as the state has no corresponding right to bring an original claim against the foreign investor.

According to an article by Robin Broad in the January/February Dollars & Sense issue, in 1964, 21 developing-country governments voted no on the establishment of the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes (ICSID), a predecessor of ISDS, as a new part of the World Bank. All 19 of the Latin American countries attending the meeting voted no.

Felix Ruiz of Chile spoke on behalf of these 19 countries and said:

The new system that has been suggested would give the foreign investor, by virtue of the fact that he is a foreigner, the right to sue a sovereign state outside its national territory, dispensing with the courts of law. This provision is contrary to the accepted legal principles of our countries and, de facto, would confer a privilege on the foreign investor, placing the nationals of the country concerned in a position of inferiority.


http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/06/a-real-threat-isds/


Are we overlooking the most dangerous aspect of TTIP?

Alex Scrivener

19 October 2015

Collateral damage. Enhanced interrogation. What’s the name for those phrases or words that sound relatively innocuous but are actually covering up something that’s very violent or very bad. Here’s another one: regulatory cooperation. Cooperation is a good thing, right? It doesn’t sound so threatening, but it’s a masterful example of the power of language to make something terrible sound benign. And it’s nestling at the heart of the trade deal being hammered out between the EU and the USA.


To most people, regulations such as air pollution limits and food safety standards are common sense protections against dangerous threats. However, to many big businesses, these rules are just red tape or “non-tariff barriers to trade” (NTBs) which inhibit profits. Proponents of TTIP say that 80% of the supposed benefits of the deal will come from getting rid of these NTBs.

Our new briefing shows how regulatory cooperation presents a unique opportunity for corporate interests on both sides of the Atlantic to lobby for these standards to be brought down to the lowest common denominator. Many of the major corporate interests pushing for TTIP actually think this, not ISDS, is the aspect of the deal that is most important to them. Some supporters of TTIP have even gone as far as to advocate sacrificing ISDS to protect regulatory cooperation. Corporate lobbyists have expressed the hope that regulatory cooperation will make them so powerful that it will allow them to effectively “co-write” regulation with policy-makers.


Proponents of TTIP say all of this is just scaremongering, but the reality is that this stuff is already happening. The mere prospect of the deal is already weakening certain EU standards. For example, US officials successfully used the prospect of TTIP to bully the EU into abandoning plans to ban 31 dangerous pesticides with ingredients that have been shown to cause cancer and infertility. A similar fate befell regulations around the treatment of beef with lactic acid. This was banned in Europe because of fears that the procedure was being used to conceal unhygienic practices. The ban was repealed by MEPs in a Parliamentary Committee after EU Commission officials openly suggested TTIP negotiations would be threatened if the ban wasn't lifted.


http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/blog/2015/oct/19/are-we-overlooking-most-dangerous-aspect-ttip

Definitely not 'FAIR' trade, by any means.


Canada is the most sued country in the ‘developed’ world, that should sound alarm bells in the EU

Maude Barlow

30 October 2015 Trade

Several weeks ago, hundreds of thousands of people across Europe and the UK marched to protest the Trans-Atlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP), a massive planned new trade deal between Europe and the US. They were rightly sounding the alarm as TTIP will greatly reduce the ability of local governments to spend public money for local development, impose new limits on the right of governments of all levels to regulate on behalf of their citizens and environment, endanger public services and jeopardize Europe’s higher standards on labour, food safety and social security.

TTIP also includes Investor State Dispute Settlement (ISDS), a provision that will allow American corporations to sue European governments for laws and practices that threaten their bottom line. There are now over 3,200 bilateral ISDS agreements in the world, and foreign corporations have used them to sue governments over health, safety and environmental laws.

Cigarette maker Phillip Morris used ISDS to challenge Australian rules around cigarette packaging intended to promote public health. A Swedish company, Vattenfall, is suing Germany for a reported €4.7 billion relating to Germany’s decision to phase out nuclear power. ISDS is profoundly anti-democratic and threatens the human rights of people everywhere.

But people in the UK and Europe should be paying attention to another deal that has had way less attention. CETA – the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement between the EU and Canada – is equally disturbing and way further along in the process. I’m coming on a speaking tour of the UK to share a powerful story of Canada’s experience that is relevant for two reasons.

The first is that we Canadians have lived with ISDS for twenty years. It was first included in NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement between Canada, the US and Mexico, and has been used extensively by the corporations of North America to get their way. As a result of NAFTA, Canada is now the most sued developed country in the world.


Full article: http://www.globaljustice.org.uk/blog/2015/oct/30/canada-most-sued-country-developed-world-and-should-sound-alarm-bells-eu

If we can't fight off these barbaric suits to the cost of millions for we, the taxpayers, to pay off, what chance do poorer nations have?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016112245

pampango

(24,692 posts)
47. Real people have suffered and real people have benefitted. That's the conclusion of
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 03:23 PM
Nov 2015

that study. Conservatives trash studies and rely on anecdotal examples. If liberal trade policies benefit more people more significantly they can be good. If those trade policies hurt more people more significantly they can be bad. In either case there will be plenty of people who are harmed as well as benefitted. The purpose of studies is to see which way the preponderance of evidence leads.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
33. 84 people own 52% of global wealth...they have trade policies to thank for it.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:56 PM
Nov 2015

So NO we need to spite the 1% now, before the OWN all the planets wealth! SIGH.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
37. We do indeed need to 'sprite the 1%'. Progressive countries do that with progressive taxation,
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:32 PM
Nov 2015

strong union policies and strong safety nets just fine. Check out their income equality the strength of their middle classes compared to ours. FDR would not be surprised. They do exactly what he prescribed for the US. They don't do it with conservative trade policies that FDR overcame.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
71. The purpose of "trade" agreements is to force poor people in rich countries to give money to--
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:48 PM
Nov 2015

--rich people in poor countries.

 

Hoyt

(54,770 posts)
73. Ask a Mexican who was making 50 cents a day, who is now working for Audi at $8/hr
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:58 PM
Nov 2015

what they think.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
76. All the ones forced off their land by privatization of the ejidos came here
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:03 AM
Nov 2015

Glad to know what wonderful hopes you have for the American working class. Fuck your race to the bottom straight to hell.

http://www.citizen.org/documents/NAFTAs-Mexico-Legacy.pdf

After NAFTA Mexican wages shrank, poorly paid temporary employment grew

Real wages in Mexico have fallen below pre-NAFTA levels as price increases for basic consumer goods have exceeded wage increases. Despite promises that NAFTA would benefit Mexican consumers by granting access to cheaper imported products, the cost of basic consumer goods in Mexico has risen to seven times the pre-NAFTA level, while the minimum wage stands at only four times the pre-NAFTA level. As a result, a minimum wage earner in Mexico today can buy 38 percent fewer consumer goods as on the day that NAFTA took effect.

One comprehensive study found that inflation-adjusted wages for virtually every category of Mexican worker decreased over NAFTA’s first six years. The workers that experienced the highest losses of real earnings were employed women with basic education (-16.1 percent) and employed men with advanced education (-15.6 percent).

The only exception to the downward earnings trend was earnings for mobile street vendors--the very poor people who hawk candy and trinkets on Mexican streets. Even in that category, earnings were still below their 1990 levels, and only slightly better than their 1994 levels.

Overall, there has been a shift from formal, wage-and benefit-earning employment to informal, non-wage-and benefit-earning-employment under NAFTA. Even formal employment has shifted to carrying fewer benefits than it did prior to the pact’s passage. Maquiladora (sweatshop) employment, where wages are almost 40 percent lower than those paid in heavy non-maquila manufacturing, surged in NAFTA’s first six years, but since 2001, hundreds of factories and hundreds of thousands of jobs in this sector have been displaced as China joined the World Trade Organization and Chinese sweatshop exports gained global market share.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
79. Privatization of rural communal land was bloody well not caused by other factors
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 05:06 AM
Nov 2015

The 99%, regardless of where they live, are sick and tired of being disposable human garbage for the profit of the finance thieves.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
81. Exactly.
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 05:17 AM
Nov 2015

And that was pointed out to him already, he chooses to ignore it.

But those who push these POS agreements always, always!!! omit the true human cost, just as do the 1% fighting so hard to scoop up what's left of the world's resources and enrich themselves further using cheap, disposable labour and weak or corrupt gov'ts to do it with.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
25. This is not about trade. This is about a CORPORATE COUP.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:47 PM
Nov 2015

We can trade with other countries in Asia (and do) without this agreement.

This agreement was written by corporations to provide ways that they can protect their investments at the cost of people in countries, rich and poor, all over Asia.

It's a corporate coup in the US and Asia now. Tomorrow the world, as Hitler used to say.

The TPP is a corporate coup.

As the OP points out, the most essential provision is that it protects SPECULATIVE damage suits that would not be allowed in US courts.

It allows corporate arbitration courts to overrule our democratically elected legislators and the laws they democratically adopt.


]

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
32. Corporations lose sometimes in our courts.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:55 PM
Nov 2015

But they are less likely to lose in the TPP courts.

The TPP courts are intended to protect speculative corporate profits.

The TPP courts are intended to protect the legal status quo.

If a country enacts a new law that might limit FUTURE PROFITS (NOT REAL PROFITS) of some multinational corporation and that country can and probably will get slapped with a big fine.

The TPP does not provide for jury trials for big business.

It is going to encourage more companies to want to incorporate outside the US.

It is going to have devastating effects on our economy and our legal system.

What if an American court renders a decision against a corporation, say on the use of a chemical that is harming our environment, ant then the TPP court imposes a huge fine on the US for having passed that law?

Are we going to be forced to consider the impact of every environmental or other law we pass on the multinational corporations and their investment plans in our country?

The TPP will be the final blow to our Constitution.

Already, the Supreme Court has weakened our Fourth Amendment to an unbelievable extent. The First Amendment has been compromised in that our speech can barely be heard now that corporations with their huge money-megaphones are all anyone can hear.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
74. Excuses are easy to make up. And that is what corporate whores do. They don't have to be
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 11:59 PM
Nov 2015

very credible. Just confusing enough to fool some of the people some of the time.

Progressive dog

(6,904 posts)
14. The truth shall set you free
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:24 PM
Nov 2015

Randome in post #2 tells the truth rather than the hysterical lies and half truths spread by the anti-trade people. We are going to have trade or we will be isolated. FDR knew this and acted to increase trade--during the depression-- reversing the huge special interest tariffs put in place by RW isolationists to protect their favored corporations.




JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
18. We are going to have trade.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:31 PM
Nov 2015

But we do not have to have trade on these oppressive terms.

We should have trade on terms established by our Congress bilaterally with other countries or small groups of countries.

The TPP is not about trade. It is about a corporate coup It is a corporate coup.

Have you actually read the TPP or any sections of it?

Read the portions on dispute resolution and the arbitration court, and if you don't understand them, please read or listen to people who have the background required to understand what they mean.

Thanks.

A note on the history. In the days of FDR, we were the creditor nation to Germany. We are now a debtor nation. We should not be entering into agreements that will increase our trade deficit.

Progressive dog

(6,904 posts)
34. No country would allow trade on terms that require
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:15 PM
Nov 2015

them to lose so that we can claim victory. There would be no reason for them to trade with us. We have to both be winners, by increased production and/or lower prices.

There is no corporate coup. NAFTA has an arbitration clause too. You should look up what claims have actually been made and what happened to them. It might give you a tiny bit more confidence that all trade is not designed to reward "corporations".
BTW In the days of FDR, we were at war with Germany. Before that,we were a creditor nation tom Germany, along with everyone else who fought Germany in the 1st world war.
We already have a multi-lateral trade agreement, which is the only one we have with Germany. The whole idea of the smaller agreements, like NAFTA and TPP, is to make the trade fairer to the USA.
I'm going to assume you support the EU trade deal that is now under negotiation.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
54. I am very familiar with NAFTA's arbitration clause.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 06:02 PM
Nov 2015

It is the reason that I oppose the arbitration clause in the TPP and our other agreements.

I do not support any trade agreements that force our country with our tradition of jury trials to accept arbitration courts.

We can trade one on one fairly if we wish to do so.

And all we had to do with Germany was to forgive some of its debt to our country. I am also very familiar with that situation. I lived in Germany and Austria for some years.

Progressive dog

(6,904 posts)
64. Lot of trade stuff you oppose
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 07:24 PM
Nov 2015

Are you now claiming that our trade deficit with Germany is fair? Your reasons against trade agreements seem to include everything that you can think of.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
72. I am opposed to trade agreements that give power that should be exercised by
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 10:51 PM
Nov 2015

a democratic people to corporations.

That is what I am opposed to.

I would like to know the names and affiliations of all who submitted text that is included in this final version of the TPP agreement.

Then I would like to know what jobs they had prior to their work on the trade agreement and what jobs they get the rest of their lives.

These trade agreements sounded like a good idea, I'm sure in the 1940s, but they have turned into vehicles of corruption.

GoneFishin

(5,217 posts)
75. Bullshit. TPP is a corporate coup. And "we" don't get shit when jobs are sent overseas unless by
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 12:02 AM
Nov 2015

"we" you mean the 0.1%.

Progressive dog

(6,904 posts)
100. TPP is not a corporate coup.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 03:01 PM
Nov 2015

Most people actually have jobs with corporations in developed countries. Pension funds are invested in and loan money to corporations. They count on these corporations being allowed to earn a profit Even a lot of very small businesses are incorporated. Fifty five percent of adult Americans (not .1%) have investments in the stock market.
"We" do get shit when jobs are created here. "We" do get shit when competition holds prices down. "We" do have an unemployment rate that is lower than almost all the EU countries.

TPP is an attempt to make trade fairer for the US.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
50. You are advocating precisely what FDR wanted to avoid.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 03:43 PM
Nov 2015
We should have trade on terms established by our Congress bilaterally with other countries or small groups of countries.

That was the trade policy of the republicans who preceded FDR. He opted for the International Trade Organization which was negotiated by Truman and signed by more than 50 countries. I don't think Coolidge and Hoover had better trade policies than FDR.

FDR believed in a multilaterally governed world - hence the UN, the IMF, the World Bank, the ITO - not one run by the US using rules determined solely by the US.


JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
53. And the corporations have so exploited and dominated and bullied FDR's ideal
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 05:59 PM
Nov 2015

of trade organizations that they have become not the tools of the people or a means toward harmony but dangerous and harmful to our democracy.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
101. So we should give up on FDR's ideals and go back to the Coolidge/Hoover trade policy - high tariffs,
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 03:13 PM
Nov 2015

no trade agreements or organizations - in which corporations dominated the government and demanded and got high tariffs to protect their profits?

Modern progressive countries follow FDR's ideals on trade, taxes, regulations, safety nets and labor unions. There is nothing outdated about FDR's ideals.

We have to tame corporations just as he did and as they do in progressive countries today. He, and they, did it without regarding trade and trade agreements/organizations as an enemy. FDR would tell you that defeating trade agreements/organizations is not the same thing as dealing with the power of corporations. Republicans in congress defeated his ITO and they were no foes of corporate America.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
102. We should renegotiate all of our trade agreements to make sure they protect human rights, not
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 03:54 PM
Nov 2015

corporate rights.

We should trade one on one country by country.

These trade agreements put the corporations in charge.

Essentially, with the TPP and our other trade agreements, we are giving trade courts -- arbitration courts with judges appointed by the parties -- what amounts to the authority to EITHER set public policy OR set budget, expenditure and ultimately tax policy.

And that is unacceptable. I seriously doubt that FDR realized that would be the outcome of his ideal of free trade.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
103. I'll stick with FDR, Sweden and Germany on trade policy but I do agree that all agreements
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 04:43 PM
Nov 2015

(trade, diplomatic, commercial, environmental) should respect human rights.

I seriously doubt that FDR realized that would be the outcome of his ideal of free trade.

I disagree. He understood what a conservative trade policy did to the US and the world. He wanted something better. You may not agree with his ideal of countries working together to develop and implement global policies. Progressives in many other countries seem to agree with him.

And I don't think he would define his trade policy, which included common business regulation and support for labor rights, as what we define now as 'free trade'.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
104. I know what FDR wanted. I don't think it included having corporate arbitration panels
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:02 PM
Nov 2015

deciding issues regarding how much money in our budget should go to pay fines for trade policies that are issued by the arbitration panel without the input of a jury.

The corporate arbitration panels are incompatible with democratic government.

I want to know where the meat I buy comes from.

Today we read that China is an environmental Hell. I do not want to have meat from China sold on the shelves in my stores unless it is marked as coming from China.

I would like to see Mexican meat marked as coming from Mexico. Last time I was in Mexico, they had open sewers around the "resort" I stayed in. (I like to walk. The smell was overwhelming once you got beyond the perimeter of the "resort.&quot Granted that was some years ago, but still I want to know what the sanitary and basic environmental conditions are in the country from which my food is imported. And to know that I have to know what country it comes from.

This is a matter of health.

My grandparents were farmers. I know a little about this topic. I don't want to buy food when I don't know what country it comes from.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
105. The concept of neutral arbitration in trade disputes was introduced by FDR's ITO.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:08 PM
Nov 2015

Prior to that national governments made all decisions, usually in favor of their own citizens rather than on any objective basis. That is what FDR wanted to get away from. If it is 'undemocratic' in your eyes for a country to agree to neutral arbitration, I suppose you would not have liked his ITO much either.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
106. It is undemocratic. FDR was not all-seeing and all-knowing.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 05:53 PM
Nov 2015

These courts are incompatible with the right of Americans to a jury trial in a case in which the damages claim exceeds a certain amount.

We will pay dearly for these deals.

Our courts are good and fair, and we should not accept verdicts on financial matters that can influence or change our sovereign right to determine our national fiscal policy or our voters' right to choose representatives to set all of our other policies.

The trade courts are incompatible with democracy.

And I don't think that the idea of speculative damage claims that can be granted by an international court is at all good.

What will happen?

Corporations that were started in the US and that should be considered American and that should pay their taxes in the US will incorporate in other countries JUST TO AVOID OUR JURY SYSTEM. They will make claims to the trade court and enforce them here.

I became aware of this problem because of the NAFTA arbitration court. Not a good thing. I could tell you more, but I cannnot.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
86. More horseshit about how TPP has something to do with "trade"
Sun Nov 8, 2015, 07:31 AM
Nov 2015

Investor dispute resolution has nothing whatsoever to do with trade. It is about corporate sociopaths overruling democratically elected governments.

Progressive dog

(6,904 posts)
99. More bullshit that TPP is about corporate takeover.
Mon Nov 9, 2015, 02:27 PM
Nov 2015

There is investor dispute resolution under NAFTA etc.. The complaints filed are public information, along with any awards. Under NAFTA, a claim was made by a Canadian corporation over the banning of MTBE. I think it still is banned.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
108. Yes there is--which is why Canada is the most sued country in the world
Tue Nov 10, 2015, 01:57 AM
Nov 2015

Which is why we need to shitcan NAFTA and the TPP.

Progressive dog

(6,904 posts)
114. And the US has won ALL the cases under NAFTA
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 08:39 PM
Nov 2015

"The US government has won 11 of its cases and never lost a NAFTA investor-state case or paid any compensation to Canadian or Mexican companies.&quot from Global Justice Now-UK-Oct. 23, 2015 )
I can see where other nations might not want fair trade, if they can be sued for cheating. I don't see why Americans would think holding other countries to fair trade rules that the USA already plays by would be a bad thing.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
16. So true, but the American people including people here on DU, are so poorly educated about
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:26 PM
Nov 2015

their legal rights and the law in general, that they will think of those who of us who are warning about this agreement are crazy or lying.

I CANNOT BELIEVE THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS READ THIS THING.

EITHER HE HASN'T READ IT OR HE NEVER TAUGHT CONSTITUTIONAL LAW.

This trade pact is in conflict with so many of our basic American principles that it boggles the mind that Obama could even present it to Congress.

How is this possible?

The Constitution is being trampled in the dust. Congress and our state legislatures and city councils will be forced by the threat of huge speculative damage awards into giving up their authority to enact laws that help and protect us.

This is truly a CORPORATE COUP.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
20. I see the "but it is just like all the other trade deals" is still be thrown about.
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 01:32 PM
Nov 2015

Such pathetic corporate bootlicking on display. Some folks have no shame in their body.

cantbeserious

(13,039 posts)
42. All Made Possible By The Sell Out President And Former Secretary Of State
Sat Nov 7, 2015, 02:57 PM
Nov 2015

And people honestly want more of the same - Astonishing and mind boggling.

 

hifiguy

(33,688 posts)
115. The reinstitution of slavery or feudalism is the end game.
Wed Nov 18, 2015, 08:40 PM
Nov 2015

Whichever imposes the fewest obligations on the overlords will be the winner.

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