I consider Carson's West Point lie a touch of Stolen Valor.

[trumad]

And this veteran don't like no Stolen Valor assholes.

[yellowcanine]

1. He clearly "name dropped" West Point to polish his bonafides.

Mark of a narcissist really. To translate a discussion that "your good grades could get you into West Point" by some random military guy, even if he was a general to "I was offered a scholarship to West Point but I turned it down." is just a total reach and it seems Ben and his shills are the only ones who can't see that.

[DVRacer]

2. No it's not

That label is reserved for folks who claim much more and should not be watered down to fit a political narrative ,so please if you don't mind just don't. I spend quite a bit of time with that and other veteran organizations.

[tabasco]

4. Yeah, it's more like draft-dodger Ted Nugent claiming he would have been the ultimate commando

if he hadn't shit his pants for a month to be rejected by the military.

Carson wants people to think he would have been a great general if he had bothered to apply to West Point and been accepted.

[Initech]

22. The cons are all about the sale.

They don't care about the quality of the actual product, if they can sell shit, they will hawk shit endlessly until the public doesn't care about it anymore.

[Wounded Bear]

5. I have to side with Trumad on this one...

It was an obvious ploy to steal some street creds to fool the rubes.

I mean, where do we draw lines on issues like these. Politicians have lied about military service and connections before. It's pretty easy to garner some false support from people who know nothing of military service and have been taught to fawn over those that have served, and are slow to check the actual stories behind the people telling them.

BS is BS and should be treated as such.

[trumad]

29. I said a touch of stolen valor---

Just a touch.... and that kind of pisses me off.

[DVRacer]

9. I guess with something I have in front of me...

Makes me draw a comparison. I think Mr. Carson miss understood what was being said at the meeting, and like many people made it more than it was. That is not Stolen Valor to rise to actual SV in my world it requires multiple lies and gaining tangible benefits because of those multiple lies. To me when we declare a person SV we are saying to one another any chance you get destroy this persons life make it crumble. It's a strong label Stolen Valor and it should stay that way. I can see where you might see it but for me to compare it to other cases this doesn't register.

[Rex]

12. I think you might be wrong and this is actionable.

Hopefully someone will pick this up and run with it. Ben Carson is a pathological liar and needs to be held accountable for some of his bigger lies.

[Nye Bevan]

14. What do you mean by "actionable"?

Someone who lies about serving in the armed forces has not committed a crime.

[jen63]

19. Stolen valor

is now a federal offense.

[Nye Bevan]

20. Nope, that law was struck down as unconstitutional in 2012 (nt)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2005

Scalia, Thomas and Aliton were the dissenters.

[jen63]

23. It was revised

and the Stolen Valor Act was signed in 2013.

[Nye Bevan]

27. The revised version only applies when there is an attempt to obtain money or property

or tangible benefit:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2013

[Rex]

34. Which is what Carson did.

[jen63]

15. I believe, but don't quote me,

that the Stolen Valor website has already called him out. Strutin around in uniforms or rates and ribbons you did not earn is enough to be called out for stolen valor. For the guy you're replying to to say that Carson didn't benefit from THIS lie, is disingenuous. He's probably sold a lot of books and been scheduled for plenty of speaking engagements because of it.

[SDjack]

18. Oh yeah. Carson stole valor. If one steals wearing a military uniform or using a pen,

there is no difference. To me, it's as clear as if he were stealing from a bank -- it doesn't matter what tools he uses. A gun, explosives, or a business suit and a pen.

[trumad]

30. I hear you---and I certainly know full on Stolen Valor.

I used the word touch because I do think it's just a touch of SV.

As far as him misunderstanding something---OK fine if that wasn't his only bullshit lie.

[GP6971]

52. You don't receive "scholarships" to the military academies

you owe the next 6 years of your life to the military.

Carson's use of the word scholarship is so bogus and as a veteran, I truly resent it.

[pintobean]

55. Carson posted this on his facebook in his defense

I don't know if it's a real ad, but I certainly wouldn't put it past recruiters to use the word.

I have no problem with attacking Carson, but I think petty, or false, attacks can only help him.

[Laxman]

59. This Comes Under The Category....

of when you find yourself in a hole- stop digging. This is a Hail Mary attempt to justify his lie. The fact that in 2015 West Point uses the words "full government scholarship" as a selling point to recruit applicants is not an excuse for what Carson put in his book. The use of the words full scholarship to West Point was an attempt to "guild the lily" by Carson and was a complete and utter fabrication. You don't get "offered a full scholarship" (even if those are the words you choose to describe the arrangement) to any military academy until 1. you get nominated by an appointing authority 2. you make application 3. you pass a background check 4. you complete a rigorous physical examination and 5. your application is accepted. Then, and only then, are you in a situation where you could arguably use those words.

Anybody who has attended West Point or Annapolis or the Air Force Academy (or the Coast Guard and Merchant Marine Academy for that matter) would be able to tell you how it works and should be as offended (or even more so) as Truemad is in the OP. They know better than anyone what a complete fabrication that story is. It is complete and utter B.S. and this Facebook post is a disingenuous attempt to retroactively cover his tracks of deceit.

[pintobean]

60. Pffft

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/nov/08/ben-carson/carson-defends-west-point-scholarship-story/

[trumad]

28. I said a touch...

[Generic Other]

3. Pre-stolen valor

Or post-fish tale.

?w=300&h=169

[pintobean]

6. No.

This veteran thinks Carson has plenty of issues that will sink him. We don't need to pile on lame bs. I agree with the poster above; we don't need to water down the meaning of the phrase.

[spanone]

7. k&R...

[Gothmog]

8. Agreed

Carson is attempting to claim that he was fit enough to be in the military without being in the military

[winstars]

10. He was born in 1951, why didn't he go to Viet Nam??? nt

[WinkyDink]

17. By 1970, the Draft Lottery was in place. Maybe, like Bill Clinton, he drew a lhigh number.

[former9thward]

31. Ahh, no.

Clinton was classified 1-A in March, 1968 long before the lottery. Through his family connections Senator William Fulbright lobbied the selective service to not draft Clinton. He was told to report for induction twice but was able to delay it through various maneuvers. He finally held off until December, 1969 when he got number 311 and avoided the draft.

http://www.1stcavmedic.com/bill-clinton-draft.htm

[WinkyDink]

54. First of all, nothing you wrote refutes me. Secondly, getting #311 is not defined as "avoided" any-

thing. Try "wasn't drafted because the system ended before his number was called."

Were you alive then, or of age? EVERYBODY AND HIS BROTHER tried to use "various maneuvers" to get out of dying in SE Asia. Of course, there were those naïve gung-ho types, ROTC grads, poor kids, and such, but many educated boys? They got braces on their teeth, doctors' reports of "bad backs," marriage deferments, grad-school deferments, and yes, sometimes they got a high lottery number.

I was friends with a young man born 9/14, draft #1. He didn't leave Pennsylvania.

[former9thward]

58. Most people didn't have the Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee

lobbying for him. I am glad Clinton stayed out of Vietnam. But I don't fault Carson for not going whatever his story was. Yes I was alive and I also don't call people who did go "baby killers" which was one of the terms used by the radical left back then.

[Brother Buzz]

24. His 4 year college deferment would have terminated the same year the draft ended - 1973

Assuming he applied for a deferment.

[Rex]

11. This vet thinks it should be actionable.

Makes me wonder if he was really ever in the ROTC. I question everything now about that pathological liar.

[former9thward]

32. This vet thinks you are being ridiculous.

Actionable? What action?



Carson is third to left. He was the Executive Officer for Detroit, the highest-ranking cadet in the city. This is why he went to the dinner in Detroit for a Medal of Honor awardees with Westmoreland. Whether Westmoreland talked to him is unknown but it certain is not absurd to think he might of given Carson 's achievement.

It also turns out West Point does offer what they call a "scholarship".

https://books.google.com/books?id=e14EAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA153&dq=%22west%20point%22%20tuition%20scholarship&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q=%22west%20point%22%20tuition%20scholarship&f=false

See the 2nd paragraph in their ad in Black Enterprise.

[Rex]

33. The academy records show Carson was not there nor was Westmoreland.

This might surprise you, but they keep records of those kind of things. He never met the general and was never offered a scholarship. So take your self-rightous garbage and place it where the sun don't shine.

[former9thward]

36. You are calling me self-rightous. LOL

I think you looked in the mirror.

The Detroit News says Westmoreland was in Detroit for a Medal of Honor dinner.

The Army records and Detroit News archival records show Westmoreland was in Detroit on Feb. 18, 1969, for a dinner honoring a Vietnam War veteran. The banquet was for Congressional Medal of Honor winner Dwight Johnson, a Detroit African-American who risked his life “beyond the call of duty,” according to a website about black participation in the Vietnam War.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2015/11/06/carsons-westmoreland-story-match-records/75328960/

Carson says it was Memorial Day, 1969 and the Army says it was February, 1969. Do you have a perfect memory of what day you were doing something 46 years ago?

And no they don't keep records on whether Westmoreland talked to some 17 year kid. Don't be ridiculous.

Carson has never said he was at the academy.

[trumad]

38. Uh yeah..Id remember that.

[former9thward]

39. Like Hillary remembers she was under sniper fire...

[trumad]

40. What the fuck dude

You sure are going out of the way to defend this liar.

[Rex]

41. Who cares.

At this point these type of posters are a waste of time to reply to. Let them foam about Carson, shows their character.

[trumad]

43. Seriously

Every post is about defending Carson and dissing on a Dem.

[Rex]

45. Yeah that HRC nonsense can go

F itself. I am so tired of watching people drag their shit in here from GD-P. Needs to be a permanent forum and sniping at our candidates should be a TOS violation in GD.

Of course someone will get outraged at my opinion.

[Tarheel_Dem]

49. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Sun Nov 8, 2015, 09:55 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

What the fuck dude
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=7327695

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Crude, rude, obnoxious, and uncivil.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Nov 8, 2015, 10:03 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Why so touchy? Leave It.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
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[former9thward]

50. As you are with Hillary's lies

[Rex]

42. Pathetic.

[former9thward]

51. Yes if you defend anyone's lies.

[840high]

53. We sure have a double stand on DU. +1

[Nye Bevan]

13. Disagree. No "valor" in being admitted to a college.

To me, stolen valor is lying about actually serving in the armed forces, not about whether you were awarded a scholarship somewhere.

[jen63]

16. Service academy students are

considered active duty from day one.

[Nye Bevan]

21. OK, but he never claimed to have been a student at the academy.

He only claimed that he was offered admission there (and turned down the opportunity).

[hunter]

25. I had some bizarre dances with U.S. Navy recruiters.

Nothing honorable about them.

[JonathanRackham]

26. Who's his campaign advisor?

Brian Williams?

[dinkytron]

35. Agree and thanks for your service.

[cwydro]

37. In my opinion, "valor" refers to service in wartime.

Ben Carson is a sad liar, but I don't see this as a stolen valor issue at all.

Lots of people lie about where they "could" have gone to college.

Hell, many lie about where they actually DID go to college.

[Rex]

44. It is a touch of stolen valor, the freakout over this here is telling.

Because it is true. Carson now admits to making it up, so some here...whatever. This vet don't like it.

[cwydro]

46. Sorry, I don't get "a touch" of stolen valor.

It's like being "kind of" pregnant.

Nope.

Carson is a pathetic liar. Saying he was offered a "scholarship" to a military academy is nowhere near saying he WENT to one or that he SERVED in the military.

No, does not rise to SV status. That won't fly.

Come on. He's gonna cook himself...we don't need to gin up a bunch of nonsense.

[Rex]

47. Nobody said that.

Gin up nothing, he made it up and a few people don't like it. Sorry if that is an inconvience to you. Just how it is.

[cwydro]

48. I don't like it either.

I think he's a despicable piece of nonsense.

I simply disagree that it has anything to do with stolen valor.

Where do you read that as an "inconvenience" to me? What an odd comment.

[B Calm]

56. US Navy veteran 1969-73 I agree with trumad!

[trumad]

57. A lot of people don't agree with me---that's cool.

That's why I said a "touch"....